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Topic: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: alitis
Posted 2012-12-06 03:39:53 and read 27345 times.

No surprise here:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeing-wins-1-2-billion-111611868.html

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: travelavnut
Posted 2012-12-06 03:50:31 and read 27241 times.

Congrats to Boeing! Was hoping this one would go to Airbus, but hey, every new aircraft in the sky is a win in my book! 

"Fuel savings compared to Icelandair's present fleet of Boeing 757 is more than 20 percent per seat," the airline said."

So they are gonna use the MAX8 and 9 as a direct 757 replacement. Being not very knowledgeable on this subject and their route-structure; can the MAX replace the 757 on all their routes without restrictions?

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: BlueSky1976
Posted 2012-12-06 04:16:10 and read 26938 times.

Congratulations to Icelandair and Boeing. I have a feeling this was packaged deal, to allow the airline cancellation of its 787 order without penalty.

[Edited 2012-12-06 04:16:29]

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: EPA001
Posted 2012-12-06 05:07:33 and read 26556 times.

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 2):
Congratulations to Icelandair and Boeing.

Though not unexpected these congratulations are most certainly in place.   Good for all involved making this deal happen.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: Alnicocunife
Posted 2012-12-06 05:22:06 and read 26426 times.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 1):
So they are gonna use the MAX8 and 9 as a direct 757 replacement. Being not very knowledgeable on this subject and their route-structure; can the MAX replace the 757 on all their routes without restrictions?

If the 737MAX has 400+ mile range greater than the -800 it could replace the B757 on most of Icelandair flights. (Example KEF-SFB)

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: frigatebird
Posted 2012-12-06 05:24:19 and read 26383 times.

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 2):
I have a feeling this was packaged deal, to allow the airline cancellation of its 787 order without penalty.

From what I've heard, every 787 customer was allowed to cancel without penalty as a result of the years long delays.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: TFJamie
Posted 2012-12-06 05:37:37 and read 26268 times.

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 2):
I have a feeling this was packaged deal, to allow the airline cancellation of its 787 order without penalty.

The 787 orders were taken over by Norwegian with all commitments and deals intact so no penalties there.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: r2rho
Posted 2012-12-06 05:42:20 and read 26182 times.

Looking at their route map, the MAX can easily cover all of Europe from Iceland. As for their US destinations, SEA, DEN and SFB will be pushing it but doable, as they are all at around 3200nm range (IIRC 3600nm is the marketing spec range, 3200nm should be a realistic range with profitable payload and winds)

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-12-06 06:26:24 and read 25839 times.

PR release from Boeing on the order - http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=2517

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: JU068
Posted 2012-12-06 06:37:26 and read 25693 times.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 1):
So they are gonna use the MAX8 and 9 as a direct 757 replacement

In another thread it was stated that these will not be used as a direct 757 replacement but instead they will be opening new cities and adding frequencies.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: connies4ever
Posted 2012-12-06 06:52:55 and read 25518 times.

I wonder if this will affect Icelandic Express ? Not sure if they are a subsidiary of Icelandair. Anyway, Express do a summer seasonal weekly (I think) 757 KEF-YWG. But this route would certainly be within the range of any version of the MAX.

Might surprise some, but Manitoba (where YWG is) is home to the largest Icelandic population outside Iceland itself.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: airbazar
Posted 2012-12-06 07:14:02 and read 25351 times.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 7):
Looking at their route map, the MAX can easily cover all of Europe from Iceland. As for their US destinations, SEA, DEN and SFB will be pushing it but doable, as they are all at around 3200nm range

If SEA-KEF is pushing it, then DEN-KEF is a no go. DEN is at 5,400ft/1,650m of altitude.
If FI is still flying to DEN in 5 years, they might keep a couple of 757's in the fleet or order something more capable.

Quoting JU068 (Reply 9):

In another thread it was stated that these will not be used as a direct 757 replacement but instead they will be opening new cities and adding frequencies.

I read that too but find it doubtful for a couple of reasons: 1) This would more than double FI's pax fleet size. That's a huge jump. 2) 20% fuel savings is too much for the old 757 to overcome. They may replace all but a few 757's which will have comonality with the cargo 757's. That may be enough to justify keeping a few pax 5t's in the fleet.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: lostsound
Posted 2012-12-06 07:30:20 and read 24864 times.

Congrats Icelandair and Boeing!

Was also hoping this would go to Airbus, but I can't help to think those new wingfences on the MAX will compliment the Icelandair livery wonderfully.

There is no direct 757 replacement so I assume Icelandair will be forced to order the A330-200 or 788 in order to reach those Pacific Coastal cities.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: SRQKEF
Posted 2012-12-06 07:43:51 and read 24528 times.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 10):

Iceland Express went bankrupt last month. WOWair is the new airline in Iceland.

Anyway, congrats to FI on this order! Has been in the works for over 2 years. And to answer some of yourq questions: no, the 737 is not a direct replacement for the 757 on American routes, at least not over 6 hrs. It will replace sme of the older 757s to Europe though.

Regards,
Sveinn  

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: brilondon
Posted 2012-12-06 07:48:00 and read 24411 times.

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 2):
Congratulations to Icelandair and Boeing. I have a feeling this was packaged deal, to allow the airline cancellation of its 787 order without penalty.
Quoting TFJamie (Reply 6):
The 787 orders were taken over by Norwegian with all commitments and deals intact so no penalties there.

I never read anything in the press release about the 787.

Quoting lostsound (Reply 12):
There is no direct 757 replacement so I assume Icelandair will be forced to order the A330-200 or 788 in order to reach those Pacific Coastal cities.

They don't fly to the west coast of North America.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: FI642
Posted 2012-12-06 07:49:24 and read 24346 times.

WOO HOO! Yeah! Glad to see both new birds for FI but Boeing!

Now- they need to come back to my airport!

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: xdlx
Posted 2012-12-06 07:49:37 and read 24348 times.

Quoting SRQKEF (Reply 13):

If Boeing would have built new jigs when it was obvious the B757 was going to need replacement,
a B75NEO would have been a supreme performer. And certainly the orders would still be coming in,
whoever made the decision to kill the B757.... Cost Boeing billions of dollars..... what a mistake.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: travelavnut
Posted 2012-12-06 07:57:16 and read 24087 times.

Quoting xdlx (Reply 16):
If Boeing would have built new jigs when it was obvious the B757 was going to need replacement,
a B75NEO would have been a supreme performer. And certainly the orders would still be coming in,
whoever made the decision to kill the B757.... Cost Boeing billions of dollars..... what a mistake.

Because an anonymous contributor to an aviation forum is much better informed than Boeing management?   

If what you say is actually true we would have seen an 757neo, but unfortunately it isn't, hence; no 757neo

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: g500
Posted 2012-12-06 07:57:25 and read 24091 times.

This is not a replacement of the 757, according to flightglobal.com, the 737MAX wil " be operated along-side their 757s"

Icelandair's 757s are not going anywhere. And why should they, perfect size and range for most of their routes. They'd be crazy to part with them

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: BoeEngr
Posted 2012-12-06 07:59:59 and read 24044 times.

Quoting xdlx (Reply 16):
And certainly the orders would still be coming in,
whoever made the decision to kill the B757.... Cost Boeing billions of dollars..... what a mistake.

I would say, whoever made the decision, SAVED Boeing billions of dollars. No need to keep a line open with no orders.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 14):
They don't fly to the west coast of North America.

Seattle.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2012-12-06 08:00:36 and read 23979 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 14):
Quoting lostsound (Reply 12):
There is no direct 757 replacement so I assume Icelandair will be forced to order the A330-200 or 788 in order to reach those Pacific Coastal cities.

They don't fly to the west coast of North America.

Sure they do. FI flies into SEA with a 757.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: afterburner33
Posted 2012-12-06 08:00:47 and read 23983 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 14):
They don't fly to the west coast of North America.

Has Seattle moved somewhere else then?

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: brilondon
Posted 2012-12-06 08:05:07 and read 23853 times.

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 2):
Congratulations to Icelandair and Boeing. I have a feeling this was packaged deal, to allow the airline cancellation of its 787 order without penalty.
Quoting TFJamie (Reply 6):
The 787 orders were taken over by Norwegian with all commitments and deals intact so no penalties there.

I never read anything in the press release about the 787.

Quoting lostsound (Reply 12):
There is no direct 757 replacement so I assume Icelandair will be forced to order the A330-200 or 788 in order to reach those Pacific Coastal cities.

They don't fly to the west coast of North America.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: context
Posted 2012-12-06 08:07:35 and read 23788 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 14):
They don't fly to the west coast of North America.

Been flying to Seattle for a few years now. Also fly to Anchorage (thought I don't usually think of it as a city on the west coast).

How old is the 757 fleet? How much time does FI have to make a decision before these birds' mx costs start to hurt the bottom line? Why was the 787 order cancelled?

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: CalebWilliams
Posted 2012-12-06 08:09:32 and read 23727 times.

Quoting afterburner33 (Reply 21):
Quoting brilondon (Reply 14):
They don't fly to the west coast of North America.

Has Seattle moved somewhere else then?

I believe it moved to Connecticut.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: CRJ900
Posted 2012-12-06 08:19:58 and read 24502 times.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 10):
Might surprise some, but Manitoba (where YWG is) is home to the largest Icelandic population outside Iceland itself.

Interesting. Why did they move there and not Nova Scotia or Newfoundland? Halifax is a nice city, I felt quite at home there...

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: rotating14
Posted 2012-12-06 08:20:24 and read 24325 times.

When will they start flying out of ANC?

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: aamd11
Posted 2012-12-06 08:28:26 and read 24685 times.

Quoting CalebWilliams (Reply 24):
How old is the 757 fleet?

They have nine aircraft with a line number of 900 or more, putting them into the early 200s.
airfleets.net lists 20 active 757s for FI, four of which are freighters. So essentially, over half of their fleet is twelve years old or less. The oldest one, I think, is a 1990 vintage (TF-FII - which I've flown on). They're not especially old.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: aamd11
Posted 2012-12-06 08:30:36 and read 24587 times.

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 26):
When will they start flying out of ANC?

May 15th. Service is twice a week to KEF, running until September 2013.

Announced back in August:
http://www.icelandair.us/information...utes_to_Zurich_and_St__Petersburg/

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: tdscanuck
Posted 2012-12-06 08:37:18 and read 24477 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 11):
If SEA-KEF is pushing it, then DEN-KEF is a no go. DEN is at 5,400ft/1,650m of altitude.

DEN is only a problem if they run into a performance limit...given the gianormous new runway that DEN put in to alleviate exactly this kind of situation, it's probably not going to be an issue. High altitudes don't limit your range unless they also kill off your payload. Even at that altitude, a 737MAX or 757 can usually get out at MTOW if there's enough runway.

Quoting xdlx (Reply 16):
And certainly the orders would still be coming in,
whoever made the decision to kill the B757.... Cost Boeing billions of dollars..... what a mistake.

The customers made that decision...they didn't order any for years despite tons of effort on Boeing's part.

Tom.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: KaiTak747
Posted 2012-12-06 08:45:55 and read 24115 times.

Quoting g500 (Reply 18):
Icelandair's 757s are not going anywhere. And why should they, perfect size and range for most of their routes. They'd be crazy to part with them

Exactly. But they are not very new, the average fleet age is 16.5 years.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: LGWflyer
Posted 2012-12-06 09:12:42 and read 23394 times.

Quoting g500 (Reply 18):
Icelandair's 757s are not going anywhere. And why should they, perfect size and range for most of their routes. They'd be crazy to part with them

Agreed, they're newer ones are not that old and can probably last another good 15 years or so.

Quoting context (Reply 23):
How old is the 757 fleet?

Some of their older 757's are above 20 years old, and the newer ones are only around 10 years.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: point2point
Posted 2012-12-06 10:22:31 and read 21702 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 11):
If SEA-KEF is pushing it, then DEN-KEF is a no go. DEN is at 5,400ft/1,650m of altitude.
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 29):
DEN is only a problem if they run into a performance limit...given the gianormous new runway that DEN put in to alleviate exactly this kind of situation, it's probably not going to be an issue. High altitudes don't limit your range unless they also kill off your payload. Even at that altitude, a 737MAX or 757 can usually get out at MTOW if there's enough runway.

KEF-SEA is 3614 miles. KEF-DEN is 3562 miles. We can see here that SEA is the further outstation.

So of all of the legs here of KEF-SEA/SEA-KEF and KEF-DEN/DEN-KEF, we have to remember here that is most likely will be the westbound legs of these are the most difficult, since they will be going contra-tradewinds. Even with the hot/high and long runway at DEN, I would think that the SEA-KEF leg of these segments would most stretch the capabilities of this bird.

 

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: connies4ever
Posted 2012-12-06 12:01:53 and read 19059 times.

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 25):
Interesting. Why did they move there and not Nova Scotia or Newfoundland? Halifax is a nice city, I felt quite at home there...

IIRC my Manitoba history correctly (no guarantee) the Icelandic immigrants were granted more or less self-government over a chunk of territory, their own laws, courts, and the ability to run schools in their own language. As time passed and inter-marriage became more common, there was less advantage in that, so the area around Gimli became a regular part of Manitoba. But you still hear a fair bit of Icelandic spoken on the street. On the August long weekend, they also have Islendingdagurrin, which is a celebration of Icelandic culture, etc., etc.

Your flag indicates Norway. I am thinking you liked Halifax because in some way it resembles Bergen or Tromso...been in both.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-12-06 12:07:04 and read 18982 times.

Quoting alitis (Thread starter):
No surprise here:

The 737-8MAX are a surprise. The later 738-8MAX should have 757 range (not at EIS, but after PIPs), so it will be fine for Icelandair's routes.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 1):
"Fuel savings compared to Icelandair's present fleet of Boeing 757 is more than 20 percent per seat," the airline said."

   Thus the 737-9MAXs will be effective 752 replacements. Not initially, but I would be eventually.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 1):
can the MAX replace the 757 on all their routes without restrictions?

Not the 737-9MAX. It doesn't have the range and at EIS neither could the 737-8MAX. Since Icelandair operates on a connecting model, they must be very sensitive to the cost per seat. I expect, once the MAX has proven itself, that we will see the order to phase out the 752s. They simply burn too much fuel per seat. Note: Since the MAX doesn't even enter service until 2017, I'm talking a 2019 time frame for the order which means replacement by 2025 or so (perhaps a few years later). In other words, I'm not predicting an imminent end to the 752 at Icelandair.

Quoting JU068 (Reply 9):
In another thread it was stated that these will not be used as a direct 757 replacement but instead they will be opening new cities and adding frequencies.

Not initially. But long term I would bet on 752 replacement.   

Quoting LGWflyer (Reply 31):
Quoting g500 (Reply 18):
Icelandair's 757s are not going anywhere. And why should they, perfect size and range for most of their routes. They'd be crazy to part with them

Agreed, they're newer ones are not that old and can probably last another good 15 years or so.

But the fuel bills will kill Icelandair. The actual replacement will probably start in 2021 or 9 years from now. With the higher 752 maintenance and fuel bills, Icelandair would be 'crazy' to delay the start of replacement more than about 2 years from that date. So the 752s will be around a bit... But by 2027, Icelandair should have rotated their fleet.

Quoting LGWflyer (Reply 31):
Some of their older 757's are above 20 years old, and the newer ones are only around 10 years.

Maintenance bills for the 752 after the 3rd D-check have been heavy from what I've read. So if Icelandair does have 20+ year old 752s, it is time to replace them earlier than what I proposed. However, they need the 737-8MAX range, so I'm not sure what they could do other than pay for the maintenance.

This older study was done when fuel was much cheaper (A paltry $1.60/gallon) and it already had the 752 CASM about 8% higher than the 739ER. Versus the 737-9MAX, their will be no competition.
http://www.aircraft-commerce.com/sam...ticles/fleet_planning_2_sample.pdf

I have friends working the A321NEO for TATL. Will it happen? I hope so, but that plane is being looked into for 752 replacement.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: brilondon
Posted 2012-12-06 12:36:02 and read 18046 times.

Quoting context (Reply 23):
Been flying to Seattle for a few years now. Also fly to Anchorage (thought I don't usually think of it as a city on the west coast).

How old is the 757 fleet? How much time does FI have to make a decision before these birds' mx costs start to hurt the bottom line? Why was the 787 order cancelled?

I would like to apologize, they do fly to SEA. About the 757's, are the 300's very old?

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: MountainFlyer
Posted 2012-12-06 13:10:52 and read 17167 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 35):
About the 757's, are the 300's very old?
FI only has one 753, reg. TF-FIX, which was built in early 2002, so it's one of the newer planes in the fleet.


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Photo © Mark Kwiatkowski



[Edited 2012-12-06 13:11:55]

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: NorthstarBoy
Posted 2012-12-06 16:43:25 and read 12920 times.

While I'm happy that Icelandair has started on the path to fleet modernization I really wish Boeing would realize that their european competitor is really good at exploiting gaps in their product line. With the 757 out of production there will be a huge gap between the 737 line and the 787 that someone is going to step in and fill. They really need to begin thinking about creating a narrow body airplane based on the 787 to serve as a direct 757 replacement and fill that enormous size gap.

As for the current order, who in their right mind would want to spend up to 9 hours on a 737? Don't get me wrong, I like the 737 as much as the next guy, but I'd never be willing to spend 9 hours on one, so, I hope that FI does the smart thing and restricts the use of these airplanes to routes within europe.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2012-12-06 17:06:17 and read 12532 times.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 7):
Looking at their route map, the MAX can easily cover all of Europe from Iceland. As for their US destinations, SEA, DEN and SFB will be pushing it but doable, as they are all at around 3200nm range (IIRC 3600nm is the marketing spec range, 3200nm should be a realistic range with profitable payload and winds)

SEA, DEN, and SFB all are at the edge of the 757 range. The weight limits with Icelandairs relatively dense configuration would be significant.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 37):
While I'm happy that Icelandair has started on the path to fleet modernization I really wish Boeing would realize that their european competitor is really good at exploiting gaps in their product line. With the 757 out of production there will be a huge gap between the 737 line and the 787 that someone is going to step in and fill. They really need to begin thinking about creating a narrow body airplane based on the 787 to serve as a direct 757 replacement and fill that enormous size gap.

I'm not sure I understand your point. The A321NEO to A350-800 gap in payload is even bigger than the gap between the 737 MAX-9 and 787-8. It appears no manufacturer is interested in the 250-300,000lbs MTOW capacity.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: Prost
Posted 2012-12-06 17:31:48 and read 12088 times.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 37):
As for the current order, who in their right mind would want to spend up to 9 hours on a 737? Don't get me wrong, I like the 737 as much as the next guy, but I'd never be willing to spend 9 hours on one, so

From a passenger perspective, what would be the difference between being in a 737 cabin or a 757 cabin? And how did our parents and grandparents ever travel in those DC-8s and 707s?

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: BlueBus
Posted 2012-12-06 17:40:38 and read 11939 times.

Icelandair stated on Twitter that the 757 will continue to fly to SEA: http://twitter.com/Icelandair/status/276804268386824192

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: KC135TopBoom
Posted 2012-12-06 17:42:38 and read 11912 times.

Quoting point2point (Reply 32):
KEF-SEA is 3614 miles. KEF-DEN is 3562 miles. We can see here that SEA is the further outstation.

No, the range of Boeing airplanes is in nautical miles and kilometers. The distances you sited are statute miles. The distance from KEF to SEA is 3148 nm, well inside the advertised 3600 nm range of the two MAX models.

KEF-SEA&DU=nm&DM=&SG=450&SU=kts" target="_blank">http://www.gcmap.com/dist?P=KEF-SEA&DU=nm&DM=&SG=450&SU=kts

KEF-DEN is 3100 nm.

KEF-DEN&DU=nm&DM=&SG=450&SU=kts" target="_blank">http://www.gcmap.com/dist?P=KEF-DEN&DU=nm&DM=&SG=450&SU=kts

DEN has one runway that is 16,000' long, all the others are 12,000' long. The B-737-8MAX/-9MAX should have no problem getting off the ground at DEN and go east bound (less fuel needed, generally, going east bound due to prevailing tail winds) with a profitable payload of pax and cargo.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2012-12-06 17:46:53 and read 11852 times.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 38):
SEA, DEN, and SFB all are at the edge of the 757 range.

Not really... a lot of the UA 757 TATL routes are an hour or so longer. That said, I think based on what I've seen they'd still be a big stretch for a 738 MAX without major improvements (which may be what Lightsaber is anticipating). 3100 nm is about 800 nm more than what a 737-800 can comfortably do today on the westbound leg of an east-west route at Gulf Stream latitudes. The MAX should erase about half of that gap. Where is the other half going to come from?

I think those three routes (and MSP) will be 757 for a long time to come. The 737 MAX (of either length) will have no trouble doing the Northeastern routes (or any of the Europe routes), and it will take awhile to replace all the 757s.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: BlueBus
Posted 2012-12-06 17:57:47 and read 11641 times.

Honestly it seems weird so many of you are arguing how far the MAX will fly. None of us know. Boeing can talk about what they want out of the aircraft, but no one will know until the aircraft actually flies.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2012-12-06 18:03:06 and read 11537 times.

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 25):

As connies4ever mentioned, there was a huge demand for immigrants to settle the prairies in the early parts of the 20th century, so land was basically given away. Cultural groups tended to settle in one area at a time.

The grandparents on my mother's side settled with the huge Ukrainian population in Northern Saskatchewan.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 37):
With the 757 out of production there will be a huge gap between the 737 line and the 787 that someone is going to step in and fill.

Boeing still sells the 767, which seems to me to be a great gap filler with a bit of NEO/MAX type treatment. The big fly in the ointment is probably engines since all the good stuff seems to be either above or below the thrust range...with the closest being the GenX-2B's on the 748.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: KC135TopBoom
Posted 2012-12-06 18:14:57 and read 11381 times.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 44):
Boeing still sells the 767, which seems to me to be a great gap filler with a bit of NEO/MAX type treatment. The big fly in the ointment is probably engines since all the good stuff seems to be either above or below the thrust range...with the closest being the GenX-2B's on the 748.

It shouldn't be a big problem to put the GEnx-2B engines on the B-767. The B-747 and B-767 have sharded the same eninges for a very long time now.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2012-12-06 18:21:12 and read 11279 times.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 41):

DEN has one runway that is 16,000' long, all the others are 12,000' long. The B-737-8MAX/-9MAX should have no problem getting off the ground at DEN and go east bound (less fuel needed, generally, going east bound due to prevailing tail winds) with a profitable payload of pax and cargo.

With more runway comes the danger of exceeding the tire speed limit before getting to takeoff airspeed.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 45):

It shouldn't be a big problem to put the GEnx-2B engines on the B-767. The B-747 and B-767 have sharded the same eninges for a very long time now.

They are a few thousand pounds heavier so that could negate some benefit, but the increase in efficiency and some al-li in the structure might make up for that.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2012-12-06 18:34:20 and read 11067 times.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 44):
Boeing still sells the 767, which seems to me to be a great gap filler with a bit of NEO/MAX type treatment.

The 767 has the wrong cross-section in today's world, and also has severely outdated wings. Even with new engines it would be eclipsed by the 788's better cargo-hauling ability and volumetric efficiency.

The A330 and 737 were easier to re-engine because they had well-chosen cross-sections and relatively modern wing designs.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-12-06 18:58:24 and read 10677 times.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 37):
who in their right mind would want to spend up to 9 hours on a 737? Don't get me wrong, I like the 737 as much as the next guy, but I'd never be willing to spend 9 hours on one,

You say you wouldn't want to spend 9 hours on a 737 but you don't mention the 757 which has the same fuselage cross-section. I don't understand why you seem to find the 757 acceptable for a 9 hour flight but not the 737. Why would passengers notice any difference, assuming the same seat pitch on both?

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: iahmark
Posted 2012-12-06 19:05:17 and read 10560 times.

Well, I guess they could get a few frames (4-5) of the 737 MAX 7 (range is 3800 nm), this one should cover all the really long routes like a champ >> ORD, ANC, MCO, DEN, SEA

They could try even CUN (3600 nm) as a charter albeit a little restricted!!

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=Kef-den...C=red&DU=nm&SU=kts&RS=best&RC=navy

[Edited 2012-12-06 19:08:19]

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: r2rho
Posted 2012-12-07 02:54:51 and read 6505 times.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 1):
can the MAX replace the 757 on all their routes without restrictions?

I have my doubts for the "deep" North America missions - SEA, DEN, SFB. The rest of the route network should be covered fine. I expect the MAX's to start replacing all the EU routes first, and once later-build MAX models come in, the US routes.

Here's a map with the marketing spec range of 3600nm and an rough-estimate "realistic" range of 3200nm @KEF:

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=sea%3Bd...%3B3600nm%40KEF%0D%0A&MS=wls&DU=mi

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 34):
The later 738-8MAX should have 757 range (not at EIS, but after PIPs), so it will be fine for Icelandair's routes.

It will get there, I agree, but it won't have the 757's pax capacity. Yes, CASM will be much lower, but rising fuel prices may eat up that advantage over time. I don't know if a 737-8 sized plane will be profitable enough... time (and fuel price) will tell...

Quoting iahmark (Reply 49):
I guess they could get a few frames (4-5) of the 737 MAX 7 (range is 3800 nm), this one should cover all the really long routes like a champ >> ORD, ANC, MCO, DEN, SEA

See above...I'm already doubting the 737-8's capability to perform those missions profitably enough, so I think the -7 will be much too small to make enough revenue, despite having the range.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: NorthstarBoy
Posted 2012-12-07 03:07:12 and read 6392 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 48):
You say you wouldn't want to spend 9 hours on a 737 but you don't mention the 757 which has the same fuselage cross-section. I don't understand why you seem to find the 757 acceptable for a 9 hour flight but not the 737. Why would passengers notice any difference, assuming the same seat pitch on both?

Honestly, I wouldn't want to spend nine hours on anything smaller than a 767-300. I realize that 99.999 percent of people out there would fly to Hawaii on a piper cub if they thought they could save a dollar, but for me size equals comfort. The fuselage cross section may be the same but the 757 feels bigger inside. It feels like there's more metal around me and when I'm confronting the specter of tail winds strong enough to knock an A340 around, the more metal around me, the more comfortable I'm going to feel on that airplane.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: stlgph
Posted 2012-12-07 07:53:36 and read 5624 times.

Wonderful video on their facebook page.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151542624919942


With the new planes - will undoubtedly see a new cities coming in the next couple of years. Can't see to see where Icelandair goes next.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-12-07 11:42:25 and read 5313 times.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 50):
but it won't have the 757's pax capacity.

Agreed. But These aren't dueling pistols, they do not have to be exact matches. So a few routes dropping to the 738MAX isn't a big deal.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 50):
I have my doubts for the "deep" North America missions - SEA, DEN, SFB.

Those will take later versions on the MAX.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 50):
but rising fuel prices may eat up that advantage over time.

The more fuel goes up in price, the faster Icelandair will drop the 752s due to the 20% drop in per seat fuel burn the MAX offers.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 51):
I realize that 99.999 percent of people out there would fly to Hawaii on a piper cub

And that is the market airlines must deal with. I want frequency for business as it increases the hours I spend with my children. I wouldn't fly the piper cub, but schedule matters. Do I make that event with the kids? A few hours difference in departure or arrival time can mean a bunch.

There will be size. It will just serve the trunk routes. I'm excited about the MAX as it opens up routes with the 737-8MAX that are not economical with the 752. There is just going to be more profit potential with the MAX than the old workhorse. A great plane...

Quoting stlgph (Reply 52):
With the new planes - will undoubtedly see a new cities coming in the next couple of years. Can't see to see where Icelandair goes next.

  

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2012-12-07 13:34:52 and read 5088 times.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 45):
It shouldn't be a big problem to put the GEnx-2B engines on the B-767. The B-747 and B-767 have sharded the same eninges for a very long time now.

1) The GEnX 2b has a 105" fan. The PW4000 models used on the 767 and 747 are 94"and the CF6 is 93". The GEnX 2b had to be shrunk from the 1b because the 747 did not have enough under-wing clearance. The 747 carried the PW4000 on a downward-slanting pylon but must carry the GEnX on a straight pylon in order to provide enough ground clearance. I do not think that the 767 has enough ground clearance to fit a GEnX-2b.

2) The 767 has other issues than its engine. It needs a new wing designed with CFD if it's going to be marketed as an adequate replacement for the current 767. By the time all that modification is done in addition to the new engine, it will be an expensive upgrade that will compete with the 787 more than it competes with any Airbus model other than the A332.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: panam330
Posted 2012-12-08 17:19:35 and read 4361 times.

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 36):
FI only has one 753, reg. TF-FIX, which was built in early 2002, so it's one of the newer planes in the fleet.

Slightly off topic, but what was the logic behind ordering only one 753? I wish they'd ordered more. Such great aircraft.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: CRJ900
Posted 2012-12-09 03:35:07 and read 3951 times.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 33):
Your flag indicates Norway. I am thinking you liked Halifax because in some way it resembles Bergen or Tromso...been in both

Thank you for the history lesson, Connies 4ever. Yes, Halifax felt very Norwegian, plus it is a nice city of its own too. That said, I fell in love with Canada a few years ago when visiting the country, beautiful country and great people - everyone were so friendly and easygoing - you are lucky to be Canadian  

If FI install a 180-seat two-class config on their B737 Max 9 they will pretty much offer same capacity as the B752. I'd say slimline seats in Y is a given.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: sancho99504
Posted 2012-12-09 06:13:35 and read 3739 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 48):

It may have the same cross section, but the 757 has as a taller, slighter wider cabin than the 737. It gives the 757 more shoulder, which makes mountains of difference.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: tdscanuck
Posted 2012-12-09 07:00:10 and read 3617 times.

Quoting sancho99504 (Reply 57):
It may have the same cross section, but the 757 has as a taller, slighter wider cabin than the 737. It gives the 757 more shoulder, which makes mountains of difference.

"Slightly" = 0.1". I don't think any normal human being is capable of noticing that. The 757 and 737 use the same seat triple width, the same aisle width, the same trim-to-trim total width (within 0.1"), and have the same widest point (just above the armrest).

The

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: ltbewr
Posted 2012-12-09 07:31:47 and read 3496 times.

As to the new 737's and NA destinations vs the current 757's and Icelandair using their North Atlantic hub, I guess that the new 737's would have enough range, even in strong North Atlantic headwinds Westbound in the winter and reserves during the summer with thunderstorms for most USA/Canadian destinations to make the new 737's workable.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: RWA380
Posted 2012-12-09 08:01:02 and read 3432 times.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 47):
The 767 has the wrong cross-section in today's world,

Wow, the 767 is my favorite cross section, alone or with another person the 767 is the best. Just flew one this week, another great flight. Not sure why there was no evident demand for newer versions of this great airliner.

I fully expect FI to keep their 757's longer than most other current carriers will, look how long they held onto their DC-8's.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: prebennorholm
Posted 2012-12-09 18:12:09 and read 3014 times.

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 56):
If FI install a 180-seat two-class config on their B737 Max 9 they will pretty much offer same capacity as the B752. I'd say slimline seats in Y is a given.

According to the press release the max 9 will be configured with 172 seats (their 752s have 183 seats).

The Max 8 will have 153 seats.

That may of course change over time. First delivery is expected in 2018.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 59):
As to the new 737's and NA destinations vs the current 757's and Icelandair using their North Atlantic hub, I guess that the new 737's would have enough range, even in strong North Atlantic headwinds Westbound in the winter and reserves during the summer with thunderstorms for most USA/Canadian destinations to make the new 737's workable.

I don't know why so many posters imagine that this order is a fleet replacement. It isn't. It is a gradual fleet expansion. And gradual retirement of some of the older 757 when enough 737 have been delivered.

Insiders tell me that there are no plans to phase out the 757 prior to 2025 at which time the newest birds will be 22 years old. They will of course use their longer range planes on their longer sectors and vise verse.

Nobody knows what will replace the 757 on the longer FI routes to North America. And we may not know for another ten years. Maybe they will soldier on way beyond 2025, that's something they could decide in ten years time.

This dozen new 737 will primarily be used on FI's European destinations. Currently FI serves 22 European destinations, but they are adding new destinations all the time, so nobody knows how many there will be in 2019-2020 when a handful of these new planes have finally arrived.

If they continue to expand like they have done lately, then I could imagine that they will soon be shopping for 5+ years lease contracts for additional 757s or maybe 737NGs to close the gap until roughly 2020 when these new planes have arrived in significant numbers.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2012-12-09 18:20:52 and read 2976 times.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 61):
According to the press release the max 9 will be configured with 172 seats (their 752s have 183 seats).

The Max 8 will have 153 seats.

As much as feature creep is something to be avoided, I wonder if Boeing is tempted at all to add a few more frames to the -9MAX to up the seat count.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: prebennorholm
Posted 2012-12-09 18:29:44 and read 2955 times.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 62):
As much as feature creep is something to be avoided, I wonder if Boeing is tempted at all to add a few more frames to the -9MAX to up the seat count.

Since Icelandair has already told the public about their cabin configuration, then it is fair to guess that Boeing has made final decision on cabin size.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2012-12-09 18:34:13 and read 2927 times.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 63):
Since Icelandair has already told the public about their cabin configuration, then it is fair to guess that Boeing has made final decision on cabin size.

I didn't think anyone would have planned, in detail, that far in advance yet.

Topic: RE: Boeing Wins $1.2 Billion Icelandair Order
Username: as739x
Posted 2012-12-09 19:00:36 and read 2836 times.

Quoting afterburner33 (Reply 21):
Has Seattle moved somewhere else then?

No one told you? They are moving to Oklahoma City with the old basketball team!!  


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