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Topic: Qantas' Flights To LHR
Username: United Airline
Posted 2012-12-09 19:55:45 and read 12047 times.

Will HKG-LHR and BKK-LHR as well as AKL-LAX resume some day? Seems that Qantas has downsized quite a bit.

With the new Dubai deal, will ALL LHR flights go through DXB? Any via Singapore still?

FRA will be gone right? Sad to see LHR being the ONLY European destination they have. They had CDG, FCO etc.

Topic: Qantas' Flights To LHR
Username: fiscal
Posted 2012-12-09 20:30:47 and read 11936 times.

This has been discussed before, at some length, but I think the consensus was that the ME link will enhance their ability to send people on to their favored destination.

Singapore will still be linked via codeshare partners.

The aviation industry being what it is, is moving more to alliances, so that you can still get some revenue, rather then none.

Topic: Qantas' Flights To LHR
Username: Lufthansa
Posted 2012-12-09 21:10:19 and read 11809 times.

Quoting United Airline (Thread starter):
Will HKG-LHR and BKK-LHR as well as AKL-LAX resume some day? Seems that Qantas has downsized quite a bit.

In the past, these routes carried a lot of traffic that previously connected in London. MEL-HKG for example was replacing BA's old SIN-MEL-LHR flight, giving PAX another option and departure time. I took that flight plenty of times because I liked its late night departure, and in J sat next to people going to Paris, Madrid etc. The very last time I took it I too was headed to spain. However the gulf carriers now allow you to go so much deeper into europe than before, and also give me that late departure time I wanted. It's just not competitive the way it was once to force everybody to stop at LHR like it or not.

I can't see the BKK/HKG LHR flights back in a hurry, if anything they'd probably be replaced with more flights to DXB or an onward flight from DXB, say to some place where EK can't get more traffic rights etc. I'd also expect more Australia-DXB flights to come online in the future. the UAE side of bilateral traffic rights is closed to maxed out, but the Australian side has heaps of room to grow. If you were to see a new flight to LHR via somewhere else you'd have a better chance of India, with significant growth in that market. The only thing is last time I checked Indians generally didn't have the highest opinions of Australians so they may not be too keen on an Aussie version of what 'service' should look like.

Topic: Qantas' Flights To LHR
Username: United Airline
Posted 2012-12-09 21:55:12 and read 11684 times.

I can't believe QF is dumping SIN-LHR. Geeeeez

Topic: Qantas' Flights To LHR
Username: Bill142
Posted 2012-12-09 23:11:31 and read 11427 times.

Quoting United Airline (Thread starter):
FRA will be gone right? Sad to see LHR being the ONLY European destination they have. They had CDG, FCO etc.

Well you can blame the French of them dumping CDG.

Quoting United Airline (Reply 3):
I can't believe QF is dumping SIN-LHR. Geeeeez

What's so great about SIN-LHR? QF can serve its customers to Europe better using EK out of DXB then it can from SIN

Topic: Qantas' Flights To LHR
Username: gemuser
Posted 2012-12-09 23:24:53 and read 11347 times.

Quoting United Airline (Reply 3):
I can't believe QF is dumping SIN-LHR.

Historically it is very sad, since QF and partner IA/BOAC/BA have served the route in some form or other since 1934, BUT we must be realistic these days and EK and the DXB hub is much better positioned for QF needs today.

Gemuser

Topic: Qantas' Flights To LHR
Username: theobcman
Posted 2012-12-10 03:01:46 and read 10584 times.

Can I just clarify : PAX wishing to fly SYD-LHR will be routed to DXB on QF metal (A388 ?) and then transferred to EK metal for DXB-LHR ? is that correct ?

Topic: Qantas' Flights To LHR
Username: fcogafa
Posted 2012-12-10 03:14:41 and read 10409 times.

No, the Qantas flights/aircraft will still continue to LHR and vice versa, just that DXB replaces SIN as the transit point.

Topic: Qantas' Flights To LHR
Username: vaus77w
Posted 2012-12-10 03:31:47 and read 10213 times.

Quoting United Airline (Thread starter):
Will HKG-LHR and BKK-LHR as well as AKL-LAX resume some day? Seems that Qantas has downsized quite a bit.

First 2 very unlikely with the EK partnership. Maybe they will resume AKL-LAX if there is sufficient demand, could be a good fit for the 787s.

Quoting United Airline (Thread starter):
With the new Dubai deal, will ALL LHR flights go through DXB? Any via Singapore still?

All eventually through DXB.

Quoting United Airline (Thread starter):
FRA will be gone right? Sad to see LHR being the ONLY European destination they have. They had CDG, FCO etc.

I thin it's just too expensive to fly these very long routes to multiple ports and that's why the flights to CDG, FCO and soon FRA have been/will be dropped (most airlines won't drop profitable routes). The only feasible method of such long haul flying from Australia to Europe is via hubs.

Topic: RE: Qantas' Flights To LHR
Username: flylonghaul
Posted 2012-12-10 04:15:41 and read 9721 times.

Quoting vaus77w (Reply 8):
I thin it's just too expensive to fly these very long routes to multiple ports and that's why the flights to CDG, FCO and soon FRA have been/will be dropped (most airlines won't drop profitable routes). The only feasible method of such long haul flying from Australia to Europe is via hubs.

It has been stated in the past that there is sufficient traffic for a dedicated flight to CDG, but the bilateral agreements stand in the way, only allowing 3 x weekly flights.
It's a shame, I would love to see QF operating a flight to CDG.

Topic: RE: Qantas' Flights To LHR
Username: jfk777
Posted 2012-12-10 04:30:07 and read 9537 times.

Quoting theobcman (Reply 6):
Can I just clarify : PAX wishing to fly SYD-LHR will be routed to DXB on QF metal (A388 ?) and then transferred to EK metal for DXB-LHR ? is that correct ?

Wrong, Qantas is still flying two A380's to LHR arriving at the same time they used to arrive when Singapore was the stop. Qantas passengers will fly from Dubai to othe European destinations on Emirates planes.

Topic: RE: Qantas' Flights To LHR
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2012-12-10 06:31:19 and read 8561 times.

They still do arrive from SIN, DXB launches in the spring. Bear in mind they had four flights a day until recently, QANTAS in London is only going one way IMHO. I suspect pride may mean a single daily QF A388 is used going forward but the stop in DXB favours EK more than QF.

Topic: RE: Qantas' Flights To LHR
Username: theobcman
Posted 2012-12-10 06:45:58 and read 8430 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 10):

Thank you Sir - understood.

Topic: RE: Qantas' Flights To LHR
Username: United Airline
Posted 2012-12-10 08:38:43 and read 7526 times.

When will SIN-LHR end?

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 4):
Well you can blame the French of them dumping CDG.

Why?

Topic: RE: Qantas' Flights To LHR
Username: CiC
Posted 2012-12-10 08:46:54 and read 7446 times.

In my opinion is the decision for QF to drop FRA a mistake - EK is fighting hardly to get an approval for a fifth or even more German destinations, and now they have a chance-
they could use the traffic rights of QF to operate 4 daily or more to FRA, and they can drop FRA in favor of another 4th destination... or maybe the rights of QF would allow to fly to another destination than FRA, I don't know...

Topic: RE: Qantas' Flights To LHR
Username: jfk777
Posted 2012-12-10 11:54:45 and read 6159 times.

Quoting United Airline (Reply 13):
When will SIN-LHR end?
Quoting United Airline (Reply 13):
Why?

Currently QF has 2 A380's to LHR stopping in Singapore, at the end of March when the Emirates deal starts those two flights will stop in Dubai. BA and Qantas are stopping their UK to Australia JV which has been around for 15 years because the Middle East ha 3 airlines which 20 years ago didn't exist. Qatar, Etihad and Emirates have changed everything from the Atlantic to the pacific.

Topic: RE: Qantas' Flights To LHR
Username: FlyCaledonian
Posted 2012-12-10 12:18:04 and read 5954 times.

Quoting United Airline (Reply 13):
Quoting Bill142 (Reply 4):
Well you can blame the French of them dumping CDG.

Why?

The Australia-France bilateral limited QF to three flights per week if I recall. QF really wanted to be able to operate a daily flight, like it does with FRA, to be more competitive against AF and SQ.

This is potentially where the deal with EK could pay-off in a few years, once QF starts taking 787s for longhaul itself, because the theory is that it could look at exploiting fifth freedom rights to Europe via DXB to help EK gain access to markets it's currently restricted in. This was why there was some surprise amonst some ANet members when it was announced that FRA would end rather than be switched to operate via DXB too.

Topic: RE: Qantas' Flights To LHR
Username: rutankrd
Posted 2012-12-10 12:45:10 and read 5775 times.

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 16):
This is potentially where the deal with EK could pay-off in a few years, once QF starts taking 787s for longhaul itself, because the theory is that it could look at exploiting fifth freedom rights to Europe via DXB to help EK gain access to markets it's currently restricted in. This was why there was some surprise amonst some ANet members when it was announced that FRA would end rather than be switched to operate via DXB too.

More 788 will change the world drivel !

The QF 788 is for South East Asia it won't be coming to Europe imo !

Topic: RE: Qantas' Flights To LHR
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2012-12-10 13:01:42 and read 5635 times.

Bang on rutankrd! They said the B767 would do the same, great aircraft, but the case is overstated!

Topic: RE: Qantas' Flights To LHR
Username: spud757
Posted 2012-12-10 13:33:20 and read 5397 times.

With the BA/QF JV ending, will we see BA doing similar via DOH when QR join OW?
What about MH; a hub for BA to work with MH into Australia?

Topic: RE: Qantas' Flights To LHR
Username: TempestDriver
Posted 2012-12-10 13:44:11 and read 5297 times.

Quoting United Airline (Thread starter):
Seems that Qantas has downsized quite a bit.

Qantas has not downsized at all; they have slowed their expansion and moved assets to different markets. Within the last month they took on one new A330 and will add more in the future. Next year 8 x 738-838s will be added to the fleet. 787-9s will begin being added next year, initially allocated to Jetstar but later Qantas will begin to get them as well.

Topic: RE: Qantas' Flights To LHR
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2012-12-10 14:17:57 and read 5088 times.

I think we can be clear they have downsized to europe?

Topic: RE: Qantas' Flights To LHR
Username: rutankrd
Posted 2012-12-10 14:48:37 and read 4872 times.

Quoting TempestDriver (Reply 20):
787-9s will begin being added next year, initially allocated to Jetstar but later Qantas will begin to get them as well
Quoting TempestDriver (Reply 20):
787-9s will begin being added next year, initially allocated to Jetstar but later Qantas will begin to get them as well

Don't think so the 789 test plane is even under construction yet !
At the current rate the A359 will be airborne and under test and ready for delivery before the 789 !

Anyway Qantas has canx/deferred their 789 order indefinitely.

Jetstar are getting the 15 788s for South East Asia as previously stated.

QF International have without doubt certainly downsized.

[Edited 2012-12-10 15:15:29]

Topic: RE: Qantas' Flights To LHR
Username: koruman
Posted 2012-12-10 15:49:44 and read 4554 times.

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 4):
QF can serve its customers to Europe better using EK out of DXB then it can from SIN

That's half-correct.

Emirates offers a better route network at both ends than Qantas previously did, granted.

But Singapore would have been a much more economical transit point due to:

1) The sector length is half as long from Sydney, meaning that the fuel burn is less than 50% of what it is to Dubai, where the airline has to carry more fuel for the near-ULH sector.

2) Singapore has a far larger premium travel sector to London than Dubai does, in fact I'm not even sure that Qantas has UAE-UK traffic rights.

There are benefits to the new EK partnership. But there are also the costs associated with operating a 12,000 km sector.

Topic: RE: Qantas' Flights To LHR
Username: Lufthansa
Posted 2012-12-10 16:28:17 and read 4341 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 23):
Singapore has a far larger premium travel sector to London than Dubai does, in fact I'm not even sure that Qantas has UAE-UK traffic rights.

They do, basically DXB grants just about everybody full 5th freedom and beyond rights as part of the negotiations. It was done that way very early in the piece before anybody had any idea what they had envisioned EK to become.

As far as the costs are concerned though, I guess the is also the revenue part. QF would get a larger chuck of the pie too, for operating the longer flight surely?

Topic: RE: Qantas' Flights To LHR
Username: gemuser
Posted 2012-12-10 16:29:40 and read 4504 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 23):
1) The sector length is half as long from Sydney, meaning that the fuel burn is less than 50% of what it is to Dubai, where the airline has to carry more fuel for the near-ULH sector.

Half Right, as far as you go! BUT SYD-DXB is almost the same distance as SIN-LHR, 6500nm v 5879nm and SYD-SIN is almost the same distance DXB-LHR, 3395nm v 2972nm. All the shift to DXB will do is turn the sectors around from shorter/longer to longer/shorter ex Australia, the fuel burn will be near enough identical, allowing for the greater distance via DXB 9473nm v 9274nm via SIN. [All distances Great Circle, not airways]

Quoting koruman (Reply 23):
2) Singapore has a far larger premium travel sector to London than Dubai does, in fact I'm not even sure that Qantas has UAE-UK traffic rights.

QF has full traffic right from DXB, as does every airline that wants them, DXB is an open port. All Australia/Europe bi laterals permit stops in the middle east with full 5th freedom traffic rights. QF traditionally used BAH but it was not specifically specified in any treaty that I know about.
About the premium travel sector, you could be right, but that is only one factor. Got a source for the SIN premium sector being larger? And DXB growth rates to LHR?

Gemuser

Topic: RE: Qantas' Flights To LHR
Username: qf002
Posted 2012-12-10 17:23:14 and read 4261 times.

Quoting TempestDriver (Reply 20):
Qantas has not downsized at all; they have slowed their expansion and moved assets to different markets. Within the last month they took on one new A330 and will add more in the future. Next year 8 x 738-838s will be added to the fleet. 787-9s will begin being added next year, initially allocated to Jetstar but later Qantas will begin to get them as well.

You must be thinking of QF in the alternate universe where there was no GFC and the company had never been privatised...

The A332 taken a few weeks ago is a domestic aircraft, and will help to replace the 7 767s being retired starting this month. There are no further A330s on order.

The 788s are headed to JQ.

The earliest that QF will get 789s is 2016, and that is assuming there is no further delay in the programme/QF manages to turn international around. At this stage, QF is expected to get the 789s, not JQ.

Topic: RE: Qantas' Flights To LHR
Username: FlyCaledonian
Posted 2012-12-11 04:56:13 and read 3558 times.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 17):
More 788 will change the world drivel !

The QF 788 is for South East Asia it won't be coming to Europe imo !

Did I say the 788s? I'm fully aware as to where the 788s are going. I was talking in a few years time, when QF International could be in a position to expand, when the world economy will hopefully be on an upturn and when QF/EK are in a position to look at developing their 10-year relationship at a point where they will be 3/4 years into it. If the QF/EK is all about QF operating 2xDaily A380s into DXB and onto LHR for the next 10 years then QF International is pretty much dead and buried.

Topic: RE: Qantas' Flights To LHR
Username: rutankrd
Posted 2012-12-11 13:21:46 and read 3336 times.

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 27):
Did I say the 788s? I'm fully aware as to where the 788s are going. I was talking in a few years time, when QF International could be in a position to expand, when the world economy will hopefully be on an upturn and when QF/EK are in a position to look at developing their 10-year relationship at a point where they will be 3/4 years into it. If the QF/EK is all about QF operating 2xDaily A380s into DXB and onto LHR for the next 10 years then QF International is pretty much dead and buried.

Still unsubstantiated drivel !

The reality for QF and the Jetstar group is South East Asia (Japan/China/Korea and Vietnam) - that's where they will make money on both SLF and Box decks.

That said i think you may talking of QF operating say Perth - DXB and Brisbane- DXB as feeders - agreed this is probable in the not to distant future.

These QF flights still won't go on to Europe through. Europe on a Kangaroo beyond LHR is effectively dead

Topic: RE: Qantas' Flights To LHR
Username: FlyCaledonian
Posted 2012-12-11 15:20:20 and read 3160 times.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 28):
Europe on a Kangaroo beyond LHR is effectively dead

At present yes. But if bilaterals permit, and EK is restricted in certain markets, QF could operate additional flights beyond DXB, this is potentially where QF could offer something to EK.

Topic: RE: Qantas' Flights To LHR
Username: koruman
Posted 2012-12-11 15:41:42 and read 3124 times.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 28):
The reality for QF and the Jetstar group is South East Asia (Japan/China/Korea and Vietnam) - that's where they will make money on both SLF and Box decks.

How do you work that out?

Japan's economy has been stagnant for years, and Jetstar is reduced to low-yield inbound package tourism from Japan.

Jetstar Pacific is a basket-case controlled by a SkyTeam member.

I've debunked the myth of China and especially Shanghai's economic size on the current NZ Aviation Thread.

Topic: RE: Qantas' Flights To LHR
Username: flylonghaul
Posted 2012-12-11 16:11:34 and read 3065 times.

What are the possibilities that the agreement with France will change to allow the additional flights? Does anybody know if this is even remotely likely, or is it just a dream?
I'm guessing the later, but would be happy to be told otherwise.
Flights to CDG could possibly be the only other European port that QF mainline could turn a profit.
The flight could operate from BNE or PER via DXB similar to the setup now at SIN with QF 5/6 etc

Topic: RE: Qantas' Flights To LHR
Username: rutankrd
Posted 2012-12-11 16:32:28 and read 3037 times.

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 29):
At present yes. But if bilaterals permit, and EK is restricted in certain markets, QF could operate additional flights beyond DXB, this is potentially where QF could offer something to EK.

UK unlimited EK access , France expanding on EK (and as pointed out QF are limited by the France/Australia bilateral) , Amsterdam EK looking at going 2 daily Scandinavia - EK targeting.

Only significant market where EK is currently tied is Germany , oh and that's just where QF is leaving isn't it ?

Are you going to say Berlin perhaps well that's more to do with Oneworld speculation rather than the EK codeshare pack.

Personally i don't see Berlin the city is too far east and questions remain about AB continuance within Oneworld alliance


So where exactly ?

Europe- Australia requires too much in resources (3-5 aircraft per route with backup for a single daily flight pair).

Same number of aircraft could be deployed on several SE Asia runs more profitably
(This mirrors the BA high utilisation trans-Atlantic day return experience in many ways)

ULH -fuel tanking is expensive and only set to get more so in future.

All those costs and risks are removed from the QF balance sheet from now on, yet they remain able to get their ticketed passengers one stop to a multitude of European cities via DXB and for some of the smaller markets two stop via LHR and their Oneworld partner BA.

You can even go the wrong way via LAX or DFW and onto LHR one stop with partners BA and AA !

QF have now successfully covered almost all the bases with limited risk and financial exposure to themselves.

Again Australia has far more trade with those South East countries previously stated and will have into the future , Oh and even the USA than with Europe.

The landscape for the Kangaroo has changed for good.

Topic: RE: Qantas' Flights To LHR
Username: rutankrd
Posted 2012-12-11 16:39:34 and read 3029 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 30):
How do you work that out?

Japan's economy has been stagnant for years, and Jetstar is reduced to low-yield inbound package tourism from Japan.

Jetstar Pacific is a basket-case controlled by a SkyTeam member.

I've debunked the myth of China and especially Shanghai's economic size on the current NZ Aviation Thread.

Note the reference to Boxes - Very important revenue stream on all wide body routes !

Topic: RE: Qantas' Flights To LHR
Username: Lufthansa
Posted 2012-12-11 16:45:50 and read 3021 times.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 32):
Again Australia has far more trade with those South East countries previously stated and will have into the future , Oh and even the USA than with Europe.

Yes, it's a little sad, but it's now largely true. Australia's top 3 trading partners are Japan, China and then the USA. the UK still makes the list further down but the USA alone is over double its size. With that is of course business travel demand.


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