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Topic: MU To Extend YVR Service To JFK
Username: justinlee
Posted 2012-12-10 10:44:27 and read 8496 times.

From the official Weibo (the chinese vision of Twitter) of MU, they plan to extend their PVG-YVR service to JFK using 332. And they are actively applying for 5th Freedom on the YVR-JFK route. Passengers won't need a Canadian Visa to transfer at YVR. But personally I really doubt whether they can get the traffic rights.

Topic: RE: MU To Extend YVR Service To JFK
Username: ryu2
Posted 2012-12-10 10:46:57 and read 8488 times.

Is this in addition to the existing non-stop PVG-JFK?

Topic: RE: MU To Extend YVR Service To JFK
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2012-12-10 10:59:21 and read 8399 times.

Sounds like they are pulling a move a la CX attempting to tap into the purported lucrative YVR-JFK/NYC sector.

Topic: RE: MU To Extend YVR Service To JFK
Username: rampbro
Posted 2012-12-10 11:17:45 and read 8302 times.

Quoting justinlee (Thread starter):
But personally I really doubt whether they can get the traffic rights

If the agreement to sell Nexen to CNOOC is any indication, they probably will.

Didn't Cathay cut one of the legs YVR-JFK recently?

Topic: RE: MU To Extend YVR Service To JFK
Username: justinlee
Posted 2012-12-10 11:43:34 and read 8160 times.

Quoting ryu2 (Reply 1):
Is this in addition to the existing non-stop PVG-JFK?

I think so. There is no sign they will drop the non-stop PVG-JFK.

Topic: RE: MU To Extend YVR Service To JFK
Username: jfk777
Posted 2012-12-10 11:49:20 and read 8125 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 2):
Sounds like they are pulling a move a la CX attempting to tap into the purported lucrative YVR-JFK/NYC sector.

why does Cathay still fly YVR to JFK ? all its JFK flights should be nonstop to Hong Kong.

Topic: RE: MU To Extend YVR Service To JFK
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-12-10 12:49:22 and read 7904 times.

This is an odd addition....I'm doubting they'll get 5th freedom though

Topic: RE: MU To Extend YVR Service To JFK
Username: jfklganyc
Posted 2012-12-10 13:52:45 and read 7721 times.

cx still flies it because the route is very profitable

Topic: RE: MU To Extend YVR Service To JFK
Username: EddieDude
Posted 2012-12-10 13:53:01 and read 7722 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 6):
This is an odd addition....I'm doubting they'll get 5th freedom though

Well, without 5th freedom rights, there is no point for this new service. MU already operates daily from PVG to JFK using an A346 and I am sure it could apply for additional nonstop frequencies.

Topic: RE: MU To Extend YVR Service To JFK
Username: CPA62
Posted 2012-12-10 14:16:26 and read 7616 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 5):
why does Cathay still fly YVR to JFK ? all its JFK flights should be nonstop to Hong Kong.



It is a money maker for CX! they do very well on this route both in terms of pax yield and cargo

Topic: RE: MU To Extend YVR Service To JFK
Username: yegbey01
Posted 2012-12-10 14:48:25 and read 7525 times.

I flew HKG-YVR-JFK last year and there was a really good load of pax who got on the flight in YVR and many in business and one or two in first as a matter of fact. So I would think if it wasn't making money for CX, they would have dropped it by now as this has been operating for a very long time

Topic: RE: MU To Extend YVR Service To JFK
Username: dc1030cf
Posted 2012-12-10 15:14:03 and read 7445 times.

I flew business on both CX888 / CX889 in Oct. The new business seat and inflight service were superb, Since I started and ended my trip at SEA, I had to take a Dash-8 between SEA/YVR/SEA. It was worth the extra hours. My other choices would be on either AA or AS. Neither comes close to what Cathay has to offer. BTW both CX888/CX889 had only two or three seats left in business. I will keep flying Cathay if I have to go New York or DC in the future.

Topic: RE: MU To Extend YVR Service To JFK
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-12-10 17:23:19 and read 7173 times.

Quoting CPA62 (Reply 9):
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 5):
why does Cathay still fly YVR to JFK ? all its JFK flights should be nonstop to Hong Kong.


It is a money maker for CX! they do very well on this route both in terms of pax yield and cargo

If they operated it as a YVR turnaround there may not be enough demand year round for 2 daily HKG-YVR 77Ws, along with AC's daily 77W. By extending it to JFK they probably pick up enough additional traffic to make the 2nd YVR flight economic. It also gives YVR-HKG the option of an overnight westbound departure in addition to the daytime CX (and AC) flights.

Topic: RE: MU To Extend YVR Service To JFK
Username: spiritair97
Posted 2012-12-10 17:36:39 and read 7117 times.

I hope they do get awarded the fifth-freedom rights! Will be a nice addition to complement the DL flight that starts up in June. Any idea what the timings will be? I assume the YVR timings won't change, so can anybody tell me what they are?

Topic: RE: MU To Extend YVR Service To JFK
Username: anrec80
Posted 2012-12-10 17:48:32 and read 7092 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):
If they operated it as a YVR turnaround there may not be enough demand year round for 2 daily HKG-YVR 77Ws, along with AC's daily 77W. By extending it to JFK they probably pick up enough additional traffic to make the 2nd YVR flight economic. It also gives YVR-HKG the option of an overnight westbound departure in addition to the daytime CX (and AC) flights.

The demand on YVR-NYC route certainly is there. Currently, there is only AC to EWR and CX to JFK fly non-stop.
I am curious why would CX not make an push for their 2nd daily YVR service to continue to JFK as well. If Canada is that restrictive on 5th freedom rights, I don't see how MU will get it. Who knows though.

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 13):
there may not be enough demand year round for 2 daily HKG-YVR 77Ws, along with AC's daily 77W.

AC traffic is O&D - there is no strong Star presence in HKG to feed AC flight. For CX flights, there is vast Asia network beyond HK. So market segments do not completely overlap.

Topic: RE: MU To Extend YVR Service To JFK
Username: bartonsayswhat
Posted 2012-12-10 17:58:36 and read 7036 times.

Quoting anrec80 (Reply 14):
AC to EWR

And that flight is the worst.
14:45 departure with a 23:50 arrival, it's well after midnight before you can get into Manhattan. You're way better of going to YYZ than on that flight. Hopefully this MU flight will be properly timed.

Topic: RE: MU To Extend YVR Service To JFK
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-12-10 18:02:32 and read 7021 times.

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 13):
hope they do get awarded the fifth-freedom rights

I believe the Canada-China bilateral gives Chinese carriers 5th freedom rights to 2 points of their choice beyond Canada. If that's correct, then it's a question of whether the U.S.-China bilateral permits the 5th freedom rights. I believe there's a similar provision in that bilateral, but the U.S.-China bilateral also has frequency restrictions so would depend on whether the additional flights to JFK fit within the current frequency limits.

Topic: RE: MU To Extend YVR Service To JFK
Username: justinlee
Posted 2012-12-10 18:14:31 and read 6971 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
I believe the Canada-China bilateral gives Chinese carriers 5th freedom rights to 2 points of their choice beyond Canada.

It says that AC will also have the same kind of 5th freedom if MU uses YVR-JFK traffic right. Let's see what will they do  
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
but the U.S.-China bilateral also has frequency restrictions so would depend on whether the additional flights to JFK fit within the current frequency limits.

Chinese companies haven't used up all the frequency on US-China bilateral so this will not be a problem.

Topic: RE: MU To Extend YVR Service To JFK
Username: YVRLTN
Posted 2012-12-10 18:48:38 and read 6882 times.

Quoting anrec80 (Reply 14):
Currently, there is only AC to EWR and CX to JFK fly non-stop.

DL are starting JFK - YVR next year too, so things will begin to get a bit crowded.

Topic: RE: MU To Extend YVR Service To JFK
Username: CPA62
Posted 2012-12-10 19:58:48 and read 6738 times.

I am surprised it is JFK is the chosen route. There had been talk MU wanting YVR-BOS

Topic: RE: MU To Extend YVR Service To JFK
Username: anrec80
Posted 2012-12-10 21:23:45 and read 6592 times.

Quoting CPA62 (Reply 19):
There had been talk MU wanting YVR-BOS

And what kind of traffic is there between Vancouver and Boston?

Topic: RE: MU To Extend YVR Service To JFK
Username: anrec80
Posted 2012-12-10 21:30:50 and read 6545 times.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 18):
DL are starting JFK - YVR next year too, so things will begin to get a bit crowded.

I think DL 737 is a good addition to existing capacity in the market, though apparently DL product will probably be not competitive with that of even MU, let alone CX. Though, SEA nearby, a city of size similar to Vancouver, gets like 3x daily DL and 3x daily UA to EWR, plus B6 and AS services - overall at least 10x daily 737-757, which is much more capacity than 77W+332+738+319, which we will get if MU gets approved and decides to start the service.

Topic: RE: MU To Extend YVR Service To JFK
Username: steex
Posted 2012-12-10 22:43:28 and read 6154 times.

Quoting anrec80 (Reply 21):
I think DL 737 is a good addition to existing capacity in the market, though apparently DL product will probably be not competitive with that of even MU, let alone CX. Though, SEA nearby, a city of size similar to Vancouver, gets like 3x daily DL and 3x daily UA to EWR, plus B6 and AS services - overall at least 10x daily 737-757, which is much more capacity than 77W+332+738+319, which we will get if MU gets approved and decides to start the service.

The Seattle area is significantly larger than the Vancouver area, not to mention that JFK-SEA as a domestic market is noticeably larger than the international JFK-YVR market.

Topic: RE: MU To Extend YVR Service To JFK
Username: legacyins
Posted 2012-12-10 22:53:28 and read 6097 times.

On a side note, MU is to start PVG-SFO service this coming April and is showing on GDS but not bookable on MU's website. Are they still planning the service?

Topic: RE: MU To Extend YVR Service To JFK
Username: justinlee
Posted 2012-12-11 05:07:34 and read 5040 times.

Quoting legacyins (Reply 23):
On a side note, MU is to start PVG-SFO service this coming April and is showing on GDS but not bookable on MU's website. Are they still planning the service?

MU want to use 332 to fly this route but it will need ETOPS 180. MU is still working on it.

Topic: RE: MU To Extend YVR Service To JFK
Username: DavidByrne
Posted 2012-12-11 14:31:34 and read 3786 times.

I always felt that this was a route that NZ should take up - extending its AKL-YVR route to JFK. Am I correct in thinking that no Canadian airline flies it, just CX?

Topic: RE: MU To Extend YVR Service To JFK
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-12-11 15:27:09 and read 3692 times.

Quoting anrec80 (Reply 14):
Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 13):
there may not be enough demand year round for 2 daily HKG-YVR 77Ws, along with AC's daily 77W.

AC traffic is O&D - there is no strong Star presence in HKG to feed AC flight. For CX flights, there is vast Asia network beyond HK. So market segments do not completely overlap.

Airlines don't only interline with their alliance partners. I would bet that AC has many connections to/from CX (and Dragonair) at HKG every day, and also carries many CX connecting passengers within Canada.

For example, I believe CDG tried to force AC to move to T1 a few years ago (where virtually all other Star Alliance carriers are, on the opposite side of the airport), but AC refused to move from T2 since they have many connections to/from AF and thus wanted to stay close to AF.

Topic: RE: MU To Extend YVR Service To JFK
Username: YVRLTN
Posted 2012-12-11 18:55:31 and read 3528 times.

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 25):
Am I correct in thinking that no Canadian airline flies it, just CX?

Correct, AC fly to EWR.


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