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Topic: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: Valorien
Posted 2012-12-13 05:47:38 and read 29139 times.

Qatar Airways said a 787 jet just handed over by Boeing developed a problem similar to one that forced a United aircraft to make an emergency landing with a faulty generator.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-1...with-same-fault-as-united-jet.html

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: KL911
Posted 2012-12-13 05:55:08 and read 29056 times.

Oops, and Qatar is not happy at all:

quote:

“These problems are unacceptable because this aircraft has been flying for the last 14 months,” Al Baker said in an interview. “They have to get their act together very fast because we at Qatar Airways will not accept any more defects.”

and

“Two aircraft having the same problem -- the same major problem -- so quickly is a cause of concern,” Al Baker said, adding that Doha-based Qatar Air will ask Boeing to cover its losses. “Definitely we will demand compensation. We are not buying airplanes from them to put in a museum.”


He does have a point though.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: babybus
Posted 2012-12-13 06:33:24 and read 28657 times.

I like his style.

However, I saw the 787 land this morning. I thought they only had one, or maybe it was a 777. It's so hard to spot the difference.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: migair54
Posted 2012-12-13 06:36:27 and read 28582 times.

Quoting KL911 (Reply 1):
He does have a point though.

He does, but I think it´s not necessary to make all of this public but to talk to boeing internally and deal with the problem.

EK and QR love to make a show about everything, United must have to say more about this and we don´t see or listen the CEO making a show every opportunity he has.

Anyway, let´s hope they work out the issue and solve the problem asap, otherwise this might have a big impact on the fleet of B787 flying around.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: ETinCaribe
Posted 2012-12-13 06:40:44 and read 28509 times.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 3):
EK and QR love to make a show about everything, United must have to say more about this and we don´t see or listen the CEO making a show every opportunity he has.

I would say Al Baker is in a league of his own, no one gets close to him in ranting and publicly voicing his opinion (mostly negative in my view).

I guess "The squeaky wheel gets the grease" translates well into Arabic  

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-12-13 06:57:24 and read 28284 times.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 3):
EK and QR love to make a show about everything

QR and AI. EK is much mellower than the other two.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: migair54
Posted 2012-12-13 07:09:06 and read 28107 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 5):
QR and AI. EK is much mellower than the other two.

Well, they make quite a lot of noise with the delays of the A380 and with the A-350, I must said that they also praise the planes if they perform well, but I can´t remember last time QR CEO said something positive B787 delays and problems, NDIA delays... lately he has very few happy moments... hehehehehehe

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-12-13 07:17:53 and read 27940 times.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 6):
Well, (EK) make quite a lot of noise with the delays of the A380 and with the A-350, I must said that they also praise the planes if they perform well, but I can´t remember last time QR CEO said something positive B787 delays and problems, NDIA delays... lately he has very few happy moments... hehehehehehe

From the same article:

Quote:
Still, the performance of 787s delivered has been “quite adequate,” Al Baker said, and Qatar Air has seen no evidence of a separate fuel-leak problem that led the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration to order more regular inspections.

“Boeing makes fine airplanes,” he said. “We hope we will always work with them as long as they satisfy our requirements.”

 

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: hb88
Posted 2012-12-13 07:19:13 and read 27901 times.

Quoting ETinCaribe (Reply 4):
I would say Al Baker is in a league of his own, no one gets close to him in ranting and publicly voicing his opinion (mostly negative in my view).

I have no problem with him ranting. If you were spending the cash that QR do on aircraft, would you not be upset at defects/delays? Remember any issue like this directly affects their scheduling and profitability.

My view, is good for him. Whether it's Airbus or Boeing on the sharp end of his stick, it focusses people attention.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: max550
Posted 2012-12-13 07:30:42 and read 27679 times.

Quoting babybus (Reply 2):
However, I saw the 787 land this morning. I thought they only had one, or maybe it was a 777. It's so hard to spot the difference.

Airfleets.net shows 3 in their fleet with the most recent one being delivered December 7th. I'm guessing that's the aircraft in question.

Shouldn't be too hard to spot the difference, just look for the chevrons on the engines, 4 wheel vs. 6 wheel MLG, round APU outlet vs. square on the 777, or the Dreamliner logo on the lower fuselage between the wing and tail.

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Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: tan flyr
Posted 2012-12-13 07:36:41 and read 27596 times.

While he may have a valid point, and a right to publicly voice his displeasure...that kind of rhetoric is usually for political comsumption of some sort or another.

Issues ,such as a faulty generator, are usually taken care of in a more private business manner.

Just wondering, who builds these Generators for Boeing? Presuming it is an outside vendor, Boeing DOES have an issue with them. Same as if Honda bought Alternators from Delco and had an issue..not exactly Honda's fault..the final responsibility for a manufacturing defect would be Delco ( in this example)

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2012-12-13 07:37:31 and read 27595 times.

I don't know whether QR and EK "like to make a show" or whether the media like to build it up in order to sell their product. I suppose the alternative would be for Al Baker and Tim Clark to refuse to give any interviews. I wonder how that might be interpreted.

From the linked article;

"the performance of 787s delivered has been “quite adequate,”" and

“Boeing makes fine airplanes,”

Yes, Al Baker is understandably annoyed that an aircraft has had to be taken out of service (and that costs money) on top of upgrade program on the Airbus fleet caused by delivery delays, but he isn't threatening to cancel any orders at this stage.

I guess he can consider the airline lucky that the fault was discovered on a delivery flight and not during commercial operations.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: SKAirbus
Posted 2012-12-13 07:47:46 and read 27453 times.

All I can say is that I'm glad QR didn't receive early models of the A380!!

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: mham001
Posted 2012-12-13 08:40:40 and read 26997 times.

Quoting tan flyr (Reply 11):
Just wondering, who builds these Generators for Boeing?

This is a good question. And has the UAL plane returned?

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: sunrisevalley
Posted 2012-12-13 08:50:01 and read 26860 times.

So help me........how long does it take to change a generator ? Piddling stuff in my view unless there is there is something in the system that is failing to protect the generators.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: CM
Posted 2012-12-13 08:53:10 and read 26813 times.

Quoting tan flyr (Reply 11):
Who builds these Generators for Boeing?

The generators are built by Hamilton Sundstrand. Comments in the thread about the UA generator failure seemed to indicate the real issue may be in one of the airplanes power panels rather than the generator itself. In both the UA diversion and now this one, the wait for parts, the use of a Boeing AOG team and the several days needed to get the airplane back into service all point to a more complex repair and parts which are not normally held in inventory by the operator. This would square up with a power panel issue better than a generator fault. The power panels are made by Zodiac Aerospace.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: tdscanuck
Posted 2012-12-13 08:58:51 and read 26582 times.

Quoting tan flyr (Reply 11):
Just wondering, who builds these Generators for Boeing?

Hamilton Sundstrand (now UTC Aerospace Systems):
http://www.hamiltonsundstrand.com/St...%20Systems_Slip%20sheet%202011.pdf

Quoting tan flyr (Reply 11):
Presuming it is an outside vendor, Boeing DOES have an issue with them.

That assumes that the reason the generator failed is a problem with the manufacture of the generator...that may or may not be true. The power feeders are almost certainly someone else (Labinal?), I don't know who does the generator control units, the power panels are Thales, etc., etc. Just because a component died doesn't mean the guys who built that component are the ones who killed it.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 14):
And has the UAL plane returned?

Yes.

Tom.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: migair54
Posted 2012-12-13 09:01:29 and read 26497 times.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 13):
All I can say is that I'm glad QR didn't receive early models of the A380!!

For us it could have been good, soooo many hours of talking and discussing.... Bad for Airbus... heheheheheheh.....

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 15):
So help me........how long does it take to change a generator ? Piddling stuff in my view unless there is there is something in the system that is failing to protect the generators.

They have to find out if it´s the generator or some snag with the system, changing a generator doesn´t take much time.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: CM
Posted 2012-12-13 09:03:53 and read 26431 times.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 17):
the power panels are Thales

Hmmm... Not sure why I was thinking Zodiac. Perhaps they make some of the internals. At any rate, I will defer to you on this one, Tom.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: capri
Posted 2012-12-13 10:04:42 and read 24627 times.

the difference between US airlines and the rest is that they get a huge discount other airlines don't, this is why US airlines don't complain much publicly about boeing mishaps

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: tdscanuck
Posted 2012-12-13 10:19:19 and read 24261 times.

Quoting CM (Reply 19):
Hmmm... Not sure why I was thinking Zodiac. Perhaps they make some of the internals.

Zodiac does the contactors and switchgear inside the panels. So it's a Thales/Zodiac joint thing. I may have that reversed though...it might be Zodiac's panel with Thales's bits inside. Either way, they're both involved.

Quoting capri (Reply 20):
the difference between US airlines and the rest is that they get a huge discount other airlines don't

No, they don't. That hasn't been true since the 90's.

Tom.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: migair54
Posted 2012-12-13 10:47:16 and read 23483 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 19):
the difference between US airlines and the rest is that they get a huge discount other airlines don't, this is why US airlines don't complain much publicly about boeing mishaps

Not true, all the airlines bargain the prices of the planes and the discounts depends on many many factors, but i´m sure QR got a good price for the B787 and not much more expensive than United.

I´m sure they do complain, but not in the media, the same compensation QR will have United can get without making so much noise and talking directly with Boeing, they are all business men and they all talk the same language, and I´m pretty sure you can even get more if you do under the table, without messing up and pissing off people than doing the show....

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: andrew50
Posted 2012-12-13 12:28:30 and read 21078 times.

If I am not mistaken United must still be having some issues with their 787's. UA 1430 to LAX was replaced by a T7 yesterday, and UA 1433 to SFO was also replaced by a T7 on Tuesday evening, that flight was running over 2 hours late.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: sweair
Posted 2012-12-13 12:37:32 and read 20830 times.

UAs small fleet of three leave no spare capacity, they will take 2 more before 1 January, a little more wiggle room. ANAs 16 fleet seems to do ok, but they have a head start on UA..

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: KC135TopBoom
Posted 2012-12-13 13:15:04 and read 19909 times.

Quoting babybus (Reply 2):
However, I saw the 787 land this morning. I thought they only had one, or maybe it was a 777. It's so hard to spot the difference.
Quoting KL911 (Reply 1):
quote:

“These problems are unacceptable because this aircraft has been flying for the last 14 months,” Al Baker said in an interview. “They have to get their act together very fast because we at Qatar Airways will not accept any more defects.”

and

“Two aircraft having the same problem -- the same major problem -- so quickly is a cause of concern,” Al Baker said, adding that Doha-based Qatar Air will ask Boeing to cover its losses. “Definitely we will demand compensation. We are not buying airplanes from them to put in a museum.”
Quoting migair54 (Reply 6):
but I can´t remember last time QR CEO said something positive B787 delays and problems, NDIA delays...
Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
From the same article:

Quote:Still, the performance of 787s delivered has been “quite adequate,” Al Baker said, and Qatar Air has seen no evidence of a separate fuel-leak problem that led the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration to order more regular inspections.

“Boeing makes fine airplanes,” he said. “We hope we will always work with them as long as they satisfy our requirements.”

Correct.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 16):
the power panels are Thales

Isn't that the same company that made the faulty pitiot tubes for the A-330/-340?

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: UALWN
Posted 2012-12-13 14:50:07 and read 18688 times.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 24):
Isn't that the same company that made the faulty pitiot tubes for the A-330/-340?

The pitot tubes were not faulty: they were within specs. The specs, however, were not stringent enough.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: maxter
Posted 2012-12-13 14:58:01 and read 18520 times.

Quoting tan flyr (Reply 10):
Just wondering, who builds these Generators for Boeing? Presuming it is an outside vendor, Boeing DOES have an issue with them. Same as if Honda bought Alternators from Delco and had an issue..not exactly Honda's fault..the final responsibility for a manufacturing defect would be Delco ( in this example)

This means squat to the customer. The ultimate responsibility lies with Boeing.
Megaphone diplomacy is never good for either party though... with that I will agree.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2012-12-13 15:02:18 and read 18793 times.

Quoting andrew50 (Reply 22):
If I am not mistaken United must still be having some issues with their 787's. UA 1430 to LAX was replaced by a T7 yesterday, and UA 1433 to SFO was also replaced by a T7 on Tuesday evening, that flight was running over 2 hours late.

All three are currently scheduled to be in service tomorrow.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: RickNRoll
Posted 2012-12-13 16:17:40 and read 17522 times.

Reading elsewhere that these panels are the same one that caused ZA0002 grief. Not saying there is a fire danger, just that these seem to be critical components that are not fully sorted out yet.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: aklrno
Posted 2012-12-13 17:15:33 and read 16649 times.

There was an interesting logical leap here. First it was a bad generator, then someone said maybe it was a switch panel fault, and someone jumped back to the ZA002 panel problem (which was caused by a foreign object in the switch gear). Now we have critical problems not sorted out.

Maybe we know next to nothing other than there was an electrical problem and the crew acted in a very conservative manner due to it being a new aircraft. We may actually know even less than that because the OP said it was a problem "similar" to the UA problem, and we on a.net don't know for sure what that problem was.

I can only see two facts: 2 787s required service to electrical components. The rest is at the level of junior high school social rumors.

If I bought a new car I would be annoyed if a major part failed in the first few weeks, even if it was covered by the warranty. Still, it happen, even with very expensive cars. In the case of cars, it is actually more common in exotics because of the low production rate. It can take a long time for problems to surface in small numbers.

If I owned an airline, and I was really irked over these things, I would never buy an airplane much below ln 100. Of course I'd then be sacrificing any additional profits that might come from a more efficient machine. Life is a gamble.

I'm also a bit annoyed at the thread title. To me, a grounded aircraft is one whose entire type is taken out of service for a critical problem to them all. What we seem to have here is a broken airplane that is too new to be broken. I'd be angry at my Lexus dealer if that happened to my car, but he is kind enough to give me a full tank of gas after a warranty repair or recall. I get over it.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: Dan23
Posted 2012-12-13 17:20:08 and read 16536 times.

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 28):

Was the fire issue with ZA002 not software or control system based?

As part of the changes made, to rectify that issue, were there also design changes made to the panels?

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2012-12-13 17:24:58 and read 16463 times.

Quoting Dan23 (Reply 30):
Was the fire issue with ZA002 not software or control system based?

No, it was a short caused by a metal tool (wrench?) left in the panel.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: kanban
Posted 2012-12-13 17:32:32 and read 16379 times.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 31):
No, it was a short caused by a metal tool (wrench?) left in the panel.

Don't believe the culprit was ever identified... other than metallic FOD...more likely a nut or washer that was vaporized in the arching. with all the rework that had been going on it was more than likely fastener related.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: JohnClipper
Posted 2012-12-13 17:33:30 and read 16455 times.

Interesting...must be A7-BCA. I flew A7-BCB yesterday from DOH to DXB and A7-BCL was used on an earlier DXB run. A7-BCA was parked at maintenance area Thursday morning.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: RickNRoll
Posted 2012-12-13 18:20:27 and read 15831 times.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 31):
No, it was a short caused by a metal tool (wrench?) left in the panel.

Googling tells me it was attributed to be 'most likely' a washer that was destroyed by arcing. I am sure someone else has a better answer. So not a definitive answer. Changes were made to the panel and the software. I don't thing the severity of the event was anything like ZA002, but a generator is a pretty well understood technology these days, and it doesn't require a major electrical control component to be swapped out to replace one.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: tdscanuck
Posted 2012-12-13 19:40:46 and read 14907 times.

Quoting Dan23 (Reply 30):
Was the fire issue with ZA002 not software or control system based?
Quoting seabosdca (Reply 31):
No, it was a short caused by a metal tool (wrench?) left in the panel.

The answer to the above is "Yes." Aviation issues almost never have only one cause. Read the posts by CM on this thread for more details:
United 787 Ship 902 Diverted Enroute IAH-EWR (by Transpac787 Dec 4 2012 in Civil Aviation)

Quoting Dan23 (Reply 30):
As part of the changes made, to rectify that issue, were there also design changes made to the panels?

Yes. They were made more FOD resistant and the software was changed to more gracefully handle a similar occurrence.

Tom.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2012-12-13 21:10:53 and read 13966 times.

Quoting KL911 (Reply 1):
Oops, and Qatar is not happy at all:

I didn't suppose Mr. AB would be very happy about it at all. He's world-famous for being unhappy most of the time.

Quoting hb88 (Reply 8):
I have no problem with him ranting.

I do. It's very unprofessional. He has every right to be very upset at Boeing. He can word it better and keep it private. The public does not need to see the dirty laundry.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-12-13 21:29:11 and read 13808 times.

Quoting aklrno (Reply 29):
If I owned an airline, and I was really irked over these things, I would never buy an airplane much below ln 100

I agree totally. Having been involved with the "birth" of many new models, I always felt I would get in line a year or two down the line.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: TWA772LR
Posted 2012-12-13 21:55:56 and read 13525 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 36):
I do. It's very unprofessional. He has every right to be very upset at Boeing. He can word it better and keep it private. The public does not need to see the dirty laundry.

Like it or not, you have to agree the man is a genius when it come to putting pressure on companies. This is a perfect example.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2012-12-13 22:31:42 and read 13186 times.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 38):
Like it or not, you have to agree the man is a genius when it come to putting pressure on companies. This is a perfect example.

I have seen no evidence to suggest that his ranting in any way improves matters.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: Braybuddy
Posted 2012-12-13 23:16:03 and read 12757 times.

Quoting ETinCaribe (Reply 4):
I would say Al Baker is in a league of his own, no one gets close to him in ranting and publicly voicing his opinion (mostly negative in my view).

How long before someone dubs a clip of "Downfall?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lui0-4IW64

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuG1SVLvM6Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiSgy-3KWMk

 

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: QatarA340
Posted 2012-12-13 23:50:32 and read 12437 times.

Quoting JohnClipper (Reply 33):
Interesting...must be A7-BCA. I flew A7-BCB yesterday from DOH to DXB and A7-BCL was used on an earlier DXB run. A7-BCA was parked at maintenance area Thursday morning.

I just flew A7-BCB yesterday so its not that.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: QatarA340
Posted 2012-12-14 02:09:22 and read 11074 times.

Quoting JohnClipper (Reply 33):

We were on the same flight! Which seat were u sitting at?

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: JohnClipper
Posted 2012-12-14 05:47:34 and read 7994 times.

Was on QR 106 - 1K

filler

filler

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: B777LRF
Posted 2012-12-14 06:05:54 and read 7815 times.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 37):
I agree totally. Having been involved with the "birth" of many new models, I always felt I would get in line a year or two down the line.

+1.

As the old saying goes: "Never buy the A model of anything". The original 747 had engines that were ... problematic. Same on the L-1011. The Q400 was a error message disaster at first, and if not that then faulty door sensors. The A320-100 didn't last long, and the first A380s were suffering from a bad case of obesity.

Much better to have someone else iron out the quirks before getting onboard with a new product.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: tdscanuck
Posted 2012-12-14 06:20:47 and read 7711 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 39):

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 38):
Like it or not, you have to agree the man is a genius when it come to putting pressure on companies. This is a perfect example.

I have seen no evidence to suggest that his ranting in any way improves matters.

Well, his ranting managed to get Boeing to do their first commercial flying demonstration at an airshow in decades...whether that "improves matters" is open for debate, but it obviously managed to get Boeing to do something they wouldn't normally do.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 44):
The original 747 had engines that were ... problematic.

"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?"

Tom.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: JHCRJ700
Posted 2012-12-14 06:30:40 and read 7617 times.

Quoting babybus (Reply 2):
It's so hard to spot the difference

Not really if your unsure, the landing gear, cockpit section, or simply the lights are easy ways to tell the differences.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: Revelation
Posted 2012-12-14 06:37:44 and read 7590 times.

Quoting maxter (Reply 26):
Megaphone diplomacy is never good for either party though... with that I will agree.

Diplomacy happens when two parties are on equal footing.

Here we have one party that pays another, something I think is quite different.

I know my company's customers are far from diplomatic when we fail to deliver what they pay for.

Quoting aklrno (Reply 29):
There was an interesting logical leap here. First it was a bad generator, then someone said maybe it was a switch panel fault, and someone jumped back to the ZA002 panel problem (which was caused by a foreign object in the switch gear). Now we have critical problems not sorted out.

I don't see that extra leap being taken.

Here it was said that there was a generator failure and that such failures could happen due to components other than the generator (including the panel). I don't see where anyone linked the UA incident to ZA002, other than discussing that indeed ZA002 did happen and the most likely cause was FOD due to a loose washer.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: RickNRoll
Posted 2012-12-14 14:08:33 and read 6909 times.

Is the real issue that the new technology power used in the 787, with a lot of high voltage DC, is going to need more attention to control and management than Boeing anticipated.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2012-12-14 14:23:10 and read 6832 times.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 38):
Like it or not, you have to agree the man is a genius when it come to putting pressure on companies. This is a perfect example.

He gets what he wants in the very short term, but that kind of behavior compromises relationships. Given the way he treats Boeing (and Airbus) management, if both NH and QR have an urgent need, which do you think is going to get attention first?

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: ordwaw
Posted 2012-12-14 21:09:39 and read 6236 times.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 49):


It is a hypothetical situation, but here is my take, to address your point ...
The vendor's approach would most likely be to address the needs of whoever has the highest revenue generation potential and biggest damage opportunity. AB with his deep pockets and a very big mouth has both ... At least for now ...

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: maxter
Posted 2012-12-14 21:37:44 and read 6176 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 47):
Diplomacy happens when two parties are on equal footing.

Here we have one party that pays another, something I think is quite different.

I know my company's customers are far from diplomatic when we fail to deliver what they pay for.

Ahhhh, I see the basis of my comment failed to hit the mark... Other than that the above is a masterclass in the bleeding obvious.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: UALWN
Posted 2012-12-14 21:49:00 and read 6234 times.

According to Jon Ostrower at the WSJ, Boeing is investigating the electrical issues some 787s are having. In the last week or so 4 787s (two QR and two UA) have needed electrical panel replacements. The link is here:

http://tinyurl.com/cd6ftl3

but it needs subscription, which I don't have...

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2012-12-14 23:05:28 and read 6077 times.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 45):
Well, his ranting managed to get Boeing to do their first commercial flying demonstration at an airshow in decades...whether that "improves matters" is open for debate, but it obviously managed to get Boeing to do something they wouldn't normally do.

Good point, although in that specific case, I suspect they let it just happen because some mid-level manager with him agreed to it just to get him to shut up for five minutes.

I pity anyone who has to work for that man.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: oldeuropean
Posted 2012-12-15 01:03:55 and read 5853 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 52):
According to Jon Ostrower at the WSJ, Boeing is investigating the electrical issues some 787s are having. In the last week or so 4 787s (two QR and two UA) have needed electrical panel replacements. The link is here:

QR has grounded 3 787s.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: flood
Posted 2012-12-15 01:39:08 and read 5731 times.

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 54):
QR has grounded 3 787s.

Only A7-BCA has been grounded. Another Qatar bird was affected, but it hasn't been delivered yet.

One of their 787s is currently over Germany en route to LHR.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: JohnClipper
Posted 2012-12-15 01:49:45 and read 5683 times.

Hopefully not grounded as I am booked on one to depart in 3 hrs from DXB to DOH.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: ordwaw
Posted 2012-12-15 02:47:13 and read 5525 times.

Quoting JohnClipper (Reply 56):

Hopefully not grounded as I am booked on one to depart in 3 hrs from DXB to DOH.

You are OK ... QTR116, A7-BCA will be landing at DXB in 23 minutes ... Have a safe trip.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: flood
Posted 2012-12-15 02:58:45 and read 5486 times.

Indeed, apparently all fixed up and on her first day of revenue service  

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: QatarA340
Posted 2012-12-15 04:53:20 and read 5301 times.

Quoting JohnClipper (Reply 56):
Hopefully not grounded as I am booked on one to depart in 3 hrs from DXB to DOH.

Your on my flight as well! :P

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: Revelation
Posted 2012-12-15 06:45:31 and read 5100 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 52):
According to Jon Ostrower at the WSJ, Boeing is investigating the electrical issues some 787s are having.
http://tinyurl.com/bsylgrr should take you there.

I wouldn't call four sets of electrical failures (three in service, one pre-delivery) a rash of problems for an all-new aircraft, but it makes me wonder if there are things Boeing found acceptable during flight test that customers do not find acceptable.

It was said that UA really didn't need to divert to MSY with the failure of one of six generators that the airplane recovered from as designed, but it seems the customers are playing things more conservatively.

[Edited 2012-12-15 07:15:01]

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-12-15 07:11:51 and read 4985 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 60):
...but it makes me wonder if there are things Boeing found acceptable during flight test that customers do not find acceptable.


One would hope the certifying authorities would not have found such "things" like this issue acceptable.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-12-15 10:10:19 and read 4618 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 60):
but it makes me wonder if there are things Boeing found acceptable during flight test that customers do not find acceptable.

Having been in the business--nothing like this would ever be accepted. QTR ZA462 (62) diverted on its B-1--I'm guessing that was due to the "electrical" issues which had to be fixed prior to the C-1. You can't put the customers on an airplane that isn't ready to put passengers on.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: Revelation
Posted 2012-12-15 10:37:56 and read 4528 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 62):
One would hope the certifying authorities would not have found such "things" like this issue acceptable.

We've been told that the certifying authorities would find the UA/MSY situation totally acceptable, the airplane lost a generator, the system rebalanced, and all that happened was IFE glitched a bit.

We all know they didn't find ZA002 acceptable so I presume you aren't referring to that. Such a reference will get you a request to move that to a different thread and/or forum.

We also read McNearney saying on Friday that what's happened so far is normal for a new airliner.

Jon's article refers to another UA incident and the QR incident delivery flight incident being discussed in another thread, and another QR jet having a pre-delivery incident. Sorry if "incident" is too harsh a term, not sure what I should use instead.

He isn't saying that they all share a root cause, but he did say all involved replacing "electrical parts".

Given all this, I don't think we know if the certifying authorities would have an issue with what's going on, or if they agree with McNearney.

The FAA quotes are interesting:

Quote:

An FAA spokeswoman said the agency "is working closely with Boeing to identify the root cause of recent generator issues with Boeing 787 aircraft," adding that afterward, "we will work with Boeing to develop appropriate safety actions."

Seems to be poor wording, because I presume they don't know if "safety actions" need to be developed or not yet.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: blrsea
Posted 2012-12-15 13:14:49 and read 4253 times.

The seattle times article on the 2nd UA 787 requiring electrical panel change:

2nd United 787 grounded with electrical trouble

From the article above...

Quote:

...
United Airlines said Friday that a second of its four Boeing 787 Dreamliners has been grounded due to a problem with an electrical panel.
....
...
Both Boeing and United now agree that the problem that caused the diversion to New Orleans wasn’t a failure in one of the six generators on the aircraft, as previously thought.

“A power-distribution panel caused a nuisance generator fault indication,” meaning a false warning, the United statement said. “We replaced the panel and returned the aircraft to service.”


However, United said Friday another of its 787s is now out of service “due to a problem with an electrical panel.”

...
...
“There are often issues that need to be worked through when a new airplane is introduced into service, and that is what is happening here,” she said.

“There is no safety of flight issue associated with these events as a result of the redundancies built into the 787.”

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: mbm3
Posted 2012-12-15 14:24:05 and read 4119 times.

My father, who was on several design teams for Boeing in the 60s and 70s, simply smiles when he sees all of the press about the 787 issues given what they went through back in the day with the new models they released, such as the 727. Unfortunately, every has so much riding on the 787 that there just is not any tolerance for growing pains.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded
Username: tdscanuck
Posted 2012-12-15 14:39:41 and read 4068 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 60):
I wouldn't call four sets of electrical failures (three in service, one pre-delivery) a rash of problems for an all-new aircraft

Given the size of the fleet and the tight cluster of timing it's at least suspicious, but I'm sure Boeing, the FAA, EASA, the airlines, and the vendors all over...they're even more motivated than any one customer to quickly fix glitches.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 60):
it makes me wonder if there are things Boeing found acceptable during flight test that customers do not find acceptable.

There's no way a power panel failure (or generator failure, for that matter) would be acceptable during flight test.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 63):
We've been told that the certifying authorities would find the UA/MSY situation totally acceptable, the airplane lost a generator, the system rebalanced, and all that happened was IFE glitched a bit.

The public releases said a generator failed, which they're now backtracking to the crew had a failed generator indication that wasn't true...there was speculation from the get-go that something beyond just a failed generator indication must have happened to trigger a diversion precisely because, as you said, a single generator failure by itself is pretty benign.

Tom.


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