Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5633701/

Topic: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: usflyguy
Posted 2012-12-12 09:32:29 and read 9821 times.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/todayi...sco-fort-lauderdale-route/1763001/

Looks like VX and B6 are going to get a little more competition.

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: STT757
Posted 2012-12-12 09:41:57 and read 9749 times.

MIA must have super high fees if airlines keep chosing FLL over MIA, SFO-MIA is a former UA route. SFO-FLL is an entirely new route, I'm guessing a 738.

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2012-12-12 09:48:20 and read 9679 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 1):
MIA must have super high fees if airlines keep chosing FLL over MIA, SFO-MIA is a former UA route. SFO-FLL is an entirely new route, I'm guessing a 738.

A 319 could make the journey too, no? I'm guessing a 320 as well with UA's generally lower density configs

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2012-12-12 09:51:35 and read 9665 times.

Plus i mean theres alot of people who FLL is closer and easier to use. Much like EWR it has its fans there is alot of highway traffic in the area so FLL has lots of fans. Its not purely a fees thing there would be a large market for FLL regardless of fees

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: jfklganyc
Posted 2012-12-12 09:56:33 and read 9610 times.

This route will be a bloodbath. ..not sure why they are starting it

I'm sure it already loses lots of money for b6 and vx

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: boslax
Posted 2012-12-12 10:13:48 and read 9500 times.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 4):
I'm sure it already loses lots of money for b6 and vx

If that was the case, why would UA be interested? FLL is one of the few markets from SFO where VX enjoys a fare premium (35%) over the other airlines. Could well be B6 and VX are operating profitably and UA wants to join the party. There are 114 PDEW's that are using connecting services in the SFO-FLL market - maybe UA sees the opportunity to capture some of that traffic.

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: hiflyer
Posted 2012-12-12 10:16:21 and read 9478 times.

B6 and VX do it with airbus now so no big deal I would think. and unlike MIA FLL is basically right on top of North/South I95 and East/West I595 going across the state west as I75. You can see your cruise ship from the airport unlike a lot of other ports making it very convenient. Only one runway currently while the skijump one is built on the south side is one drawback...other being Customs is on the south side and not a seamless transfer. UA is in the newest terminal with great access to rental cars and parking and is the first one coming into the airport.

perhaps UA thinks VX is vulnerable and has started to make plans on a post amr/us structure down at MIA....perhaps...

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: usflyguy
Posted 2012-12-12 10:17:59 and read 9477 times.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 4):
I'm sure it already loses lots of money for b6 and vx

Put more pressure on VX as their main hub and secondary hub are both UA hubs.

Was the last route out of SFO that VX didn't have competition from UA on?

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: mah4546
Posted 2012-12-12 10:20:36 and read 9442 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 1):
MIA must have super high fees if airlines keep chosing FLL over MIA, SFO-MIA is a former UA route. SFO-FLL is an entirely new route, I'm guessing a 738.

Well, yes, MIA's fees are high. That's not a secret. Landing fees were lowered this year, though.

But MIA is the nation's fastest growing airport - so to say airlines "keep chosing FLL over MIA" is a lie. They don't. Domestic airlines generally do; international airlines don't.

But FLL's has so many improvement programs going on right now, it's enplanement costs are set to triple and get into dangerously high territory for a low-fare mecca. MIA can support it's high enplanement costs - just like SEA, JFK, YYZ, etc.; FLL can't. It's going to be in the same club as SMF, IND and ONT.

As for this route, it probably has little to do with costs. Newark's newest airline doesn't fly to Miami; and United Express carrier Silver Airways is hubbed in FLL, not MIA.

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: laca773
Posted 2012-12-12 10:22:28 and read 9418 times.

If the 73H is too large for this market, UA can always downgauge it to a 73G/A319.
From what I understand, FLL is a much better, friendlier airport to fly into compared to hellish MIA.

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: AAflyguy
Posted 2012-12-12 11:05:44 and read 9202 times.

So MIA being deemed as the fastest growing airport in the US is based on % increase in passengers, correct? I mean, ATL is growing by 3.5% this year, which equates to 2.5 million additional passengers. Just wondering how that compares @ MIA in terms of raw numbers. ATL's growth percentage is relatively low but on a huge base so the actual passenger equivalent is a big number. They're likely to end the year up 3 million passengers over 2011.

I'm going to SoFla in Feb and am looking at MIA vs FLL. Even though I am destined for MIA, I am likely to fly into FLL as the fare is more than $200 cheaper. That's a significant difference, at least to me, for a domestic trip.

And, what @ FLL is leading to the projected skyrocketing operating costs there? Isn't the runway project primarily funded via FAA? If so, that's not something the airlines are going to eat. Is there a massive CIP list over the next 5-years which will drive up the CPE for carriers operating there? FLL is very unlike SMF/IND/ONT in that it is much busier than any of those three..I'd go so far as to say its total pax traffic is rougly the total of those three airports combined. Also, I doubt MIA or PBI are in a position to tackle a huge surge in traffic by airlines looking to defect from FLL. Also, if MIA's costs are already high, then there will be no real incentive for airlines to shift capacity there. FLL may be a "low cost" mecca, but I'm certain the airlines are staying very close to any plans the Airport has which will significantly increase their costs. Also, the additional runway capacity will allow for increased aircraft operations and the ability to add new flights. The more service there is by each carrier, the less of an impact increasing costs have as they're spread across a larger passenger base.

Also, WN, B6, and NK all operate in some high cost airports around the U.S. That doesn't, in any way, justify FLL's costs going however high they are projected to, just to say that this isn't something which is foreign to these three carriers.

AAflyguy

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: boslax
Posted 2012-12-12 11:08:49 and read 9180 times.

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 7):
Was the last route out of SFO that VX didn't have competition from UA on?

you are correct sir

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: psa1011
Posted 2012-12-12 11:15:35 and read 9130 times.

Anyone have any times for the new flight?

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: tommy767
Posted 2012-12-12 11:18:39 and read 9097 times.

Great news! Saw this one coming and dont forget about silver airways feed in fll!

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: CoachClass
Posted 2012-12-12 11:19:32 and read 9097 times.

They better have IFE/AVOD with Direct TV and a good flight schedule if they want to compete with Virgin America and jetBlue.

Looking at Seat Guru, it looks like the 739 may be the best fit with the IFE.

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: UALFAson
Posted 2012-12-12 12:17:19 and read 8827 times.

Quoting CoachClass (Reply 14):
They better have IFE/AVOD with Direct TV and a good flight schedule if they want to compete with Virgin America and jetBlue.

Don't need it. They have a cadre of Mileage Plus flyers in the Bay Area who will choose UA for the miles regardless of IFE.

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: N782NC
Posted 2012-12-12 12:20:34 and read 8810 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 8):
But MIA is the nation's fastest growing airport
Quoting AAflyguy (Reply 10):
So MIA being deemed as the fastest growing airport in the US is based on % increase in passengers, correct?

Actually no. Compared to 2011, SFO is seeing around a 10% increase in passenger numbers this year. Miami is growing by nearly 6%, impressive, but still pretty far off from SFO.


I just have to ask... Is American's operation so fortified in MIA that United couldn't take a shot there instead of FLL?

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: boeing773ER
Posted 2012-12-12 13:04:05 and read 8622 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 8):
t's going to be in the same club as SMF, IND and ONT.

I don't believe any of those airports are equal to what FLL is. Just because MIA is right now the road from FLL doesn't mean they fight for the same market. MIA is more of an international airport, with an AA hub. It also serves purely MIA and markets south and slightly north of it.

Compared to FLL where their market is Fort Lauderdale, Hollywood, Pompano Beach, Boca Raton and West Palm Beach. They also have a large cruise liner feeder market.

Now compared to SMF, IND, ONT they serve secondary markets. Besides ONT, but the whole LAX basin market is kind of flooded with the four other airport.

So no, FLL is not going to become a secondary market like the rest of those airports when the costs rise. It can hold it's own against MIA.

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: Polot
Posted 2012-12-12 13:04:21 and read 8620 times.

Quoting N782NC (Reply 16):
I just have to ask... Is American's operation so fortified in MIA that United couldn't take a shot there instead of FLL?

UA is much larger in FLL than MIA. They also, as Tommy767 mentioned, have feed there from Silver Airways dba United Express.

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: Catiii
Posted 2012-12-12 13:17:54 and read 8535 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 1):
A 319 could make the journey too, no? I'm guessing a 320 as well with UA's generally lower density configs

Definitely can; that's what Virgin America uses.

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: kgaiflyer
Posted 2012-12-12 13:18:28 and read 8528 times.

Quoting CoachClass (Reply 14):
They better have IFE/AVOD with Direct TV and a good flight schedule if they want to compete with Virgin America and jetBlue.

Bring a Kindle and an MP3 too since right now -- with strong winter headwinds -- flights from the Atlantic Ocean to San Francisco are going over six hours. Boston -- at 6h 50m -- seems to be the longest.

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: boslax
Posted 2012-12-12 13:27:58 and read 8485 times.

Quoting N782NC (Reply 16):
just have to ask... Is American's operation so fortified in MIA that United couldn't take a shot there instead of FLL?

American is flying 3 daily roundtrips in the SFO-MIA market with an average annual load factor of 90%, which means there's probably some spill occurring. 40% of AA's on-board passengers are local, with the remaining 60% more than likely connecting beyond MIA (some traffic may be connecting to oneworld carriers at SFO). So if UA entered the market, they would compete head-to-head for the local traffic with AA, while each carrier would have a distinct pool of traffic beyond their respective hubs - (UA beyond SFO, AA beyond MIA). 57% of the local SFO-MIA market originates in SFO - very very slight advantage to UA. To compete with AA, I believe UA would need to offer more than one daily roundtrip. At 11.5 block hours, we're talking about one aircraft per roundtrip. Might be too much to ask.

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: STT757
Posted 2012-12-12 13:33:22 and read 8456 times.

Quoting CoachClass (Reply 14):
They better have IFE/AVOD with Direct TV and a good flight schedule if they want to compete with Virgin America and jetBlue.

It's a 738, and yes they have DirecTv.

http://ir.unitedcontinentalholdings....-newsArticle&ID=1766728&highlight=

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: Catiii
Posted 2012-12-12 13:50:10 and read 8366 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 22):

It's a 738, and yes they have DirecTv.

Has the whole 738 fleet been equipped with DirecTV? I figure they're close by now.

[Edited 2012-12-12 13:56:59]

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: STT757
Posted 2012-12-12 14:00:50 and read 8325 times.

Quoting Catiii (Reply 23):
Has the whole 738 fleet been equipped with DirecTV? I figure they're close by now.

100 out of 130 737-800s currently have DirecTV, all but the 8 that operate from Guam will have DirecTV.

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: OB1504
Posted 2012-12-12 20:07:03 and read 7144 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 1):
MIA must have super high fees if airlines keep chosing FLL over MIA, SFO-MIA is a former UA route. SFO-FLL is an entirely new route, I'm guessing a 738.

As mentioned earlier, MIA can justify the fees. UA already has a larger operation at FLL to begin with, so it made sense to fly there.

Quoting laca773 (Reply 9):
If the 73H is too large for this market, UA can always downgauge it to a 73G/A319.
From what I understand, FLL is a much better, friendlier airport to fly into compared to hellish MIA.

When was the last time you flew through MIA? Posters on this website seem to love bashing MIA based on the idea that the airport is still the same clusterf*** it was seven years ago.

That being said, I work at MIA but fly almost exclusively through FLL due to the lower airfares.

Quoting N782NC (Reply 16):
I just have to ask... Is American's operation so fortified in MIA that United couldn't take a shot there instead of FLL?

UA gave up on MIA years ago. They maintain only a token presence and very senior staff.

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: IcelandairMSP
Posted 2012-12-12 20:36:10 and read 6974 times.

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 17):
I don't believe any of those airports are equal to what FLL is. Just because MIA is right now the road from FLL doesn't mean they fight for the same market. MIA is more of an international airport, with an AA hub. It also serves purely MIA and markets south and slightly north of it.

Compared to FLL where their market is Fort Lauderdale, Hollywood, Pompano Beach, Boca Raton and West Palm Beach. They also have a large cruise liner feeder market.

Now compared to SMF, IND, ONT they serve secondary markets. Besides ONT, but the whole LAX basin market is kind of flooded with the four other airport.

So no, FLL is not going to become a secondary market like the rest of those airports when the costs rise. It can hold it's own against MIA.

This isn't about the size of the market, it's about the cost of airport improvements and how that affects fees. IND and SMF both built large new terminals that are now difficult to pay for without burdening airlines with some of the costs in landing fees. Thus, it's more expensive and less attractive to operate. There will always be plenty of demand, but for lower cost carriers, it is more difficult to make a profit and their volume diminishes.

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: BOACCunard
Posted 2012-12-12 21:03:52 and read 6929 times.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 25):
When was the last time you flew through MIA? Posters on this website seem to love bashing MIA based on the idea that the airport is still the same clusterf*** it was seven years ago.

It's not just people here. A lot of people still perceive FLL as a more user-friendly airport than MIA.

It can take a long time for perceptions to change.

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: modesto2
Posted 2012-12-13 05:14:45 and read 5859 times.

Just because UA enters this market doesn't mean they think B6 and VX are making money. Both competitors could be losing money, and UA could enter to inflict further damage. If they're pursuing this strategy, at least they're wise enough to do it from one of their hubs.

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: 777jaah
Posted 2012-12-13 05:38:06 and read 5782 times.

Quoting boslax (Reply 5):
maybe UA sees the opportunity to capture some of that traffic.

If schedule is right, maybe AV can feed some if that traffic too.

Quoting delawareusa (Reply 29):
Both are big Gay cities

Ohh boy, I'm just counting before you get flamed and then your post get deleted.....

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2012-12-13 06:26:39 and read 5584 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 8):
But MIA is the nation's fastest growing airport - so to say airlines "keep chosing FLL over MIA" is a lie

Couldn't the poster just be wrong? rather than being called a liar?

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: kgaiflyer
Posted 2012-12-13 07:19:42 and read 5371 times.

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 32):
Quoting mah4546 (Reply 8):But MIA is the nation's fastest growing airport - so to say airlines "keep choosing FLL over MIA" is a lie

Couldn't the poster just be wrong? rather than being called a liar?

Most especially since "Airlines keep choosing FLL" and "MIA is the nation's fastest growing airport" are different warrants and are not logically allied.

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: Stratacruiser
Posted 2012-12-13 18:30:07 and read 4529 times.

Quoting Catiii (Reply 23):
Has the whole 738 fleet been equipped with DirecTV? I figure they're close by now.

I was on one last Thursday PHX-IAH that had no IFE of any kind.

[Edited 2012-12-13 18:30:50]

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: FlyDeltaJets
Posted 2012-12-13 20:19:59 and read 4405 times.

Quoting psa1011 (Reply 12):
Anyone have any times for the new flight?

Starts 3/2/2013 - Saturday only
4/9/2013 - Daily service begins

Departs SFO 0830 Arrives FLL 1705
Departs FLL 1755 Arrives SFO 2115

Will be loaded for booking on 12/15/2012

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: OB1504
Posted 2012-12-13 20:32:24 and read 4374 times.

Quoting Stratacruiser (Reply 32):
I was on one last Thursday PHX-IAH that had no IFE of any kind.

I think that may have been one of the (newer) aircraft that was originally intended for Alaska Airlines, delivered complete with AS interior. Personally, I prefer those to the "actual" former CO birds.

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: boilerla
Posted 2012-12-13 21:21:12 and read 4320 times.

I think the majority of the 738s without any IFE were to be delivered with the Koito seats that had to be swapped. Also there are some new 739s that were just delivered that have no DirecTV installed yet.

Yesterday I was on a 738 that had fold-down screens like those on UA's Airbus fleet. Surprised me for a second--I had to double check I was actually on a 738. Not sure what that's about -- maybe for the A/C that fly to Hawaii or to LatAm out of range of DirecTV?

SFO-FLL is pretty long haul for a domestic route. I'm surprised UA is trying it, considering they cut several TPA and other Florida frequencies recently.

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: klwright69
Posted 2012-12-14 00:24:20 and read 4194 times.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 25):
Quoting N782NC (Reply 16):I just have to ask... Is American's operation so fortified in MIA that United couldn't take a shot there instead of FLL?UA gave up on MIA years ago. They maintain only a token presence and very senior staff.

True. But the CO merger has some rejuvenated UA to MIA.

Quoting modesto2 (Reply 28):
Just because UA enters this market doesn't mean they think B6 and VX are making money. Both competitors could be losing money, and UA could enter to inflict further damage. If they're pursuing this strategy, at least they're wise enough to do it from one of their hubs.

Exactly...

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: STT757
Posted 2012-12-14 04:52:45 and read 4078 times.

Quoting boilerla (Reply 35):
I think the majority of the 738s without any IFE were to be delivered with the Koito seats that had to be swapped. Also there are some new 739s that were just delivered that have no DirecTV installed yet.

Yesterday I was on a 738 that had fold-down screens like those on UA's Airbus fleet. Surprised me for a second--I had to double check I was actually on a 738. Not sure what that's about -- maybe for the A/C that fly to Hawaii or to LatAm out of range of DirecTV?



The majority of the 738s without the DirecTv are the Mid-Cabin lav 738s, they are waiting to be reconfigured. The only 738s that will not receive the DirecTv installation are the 8 that operate from Guam.

Right now there are 100 738s with DirecTv, 30 without. Eventually all but the eight that operate from Guam will have DirecTv for a total of 122 DirecTv equipped 738s.

With regards to the 73G fleet 32 are equipped with DirecTV, there are four without that operate from Guam that will not received DirecTv.

All of the 737-900s will have DirecTv, right now 55 are installed and nine are awaiting installation.

As for the 757-300s the nine delivered new to CO will get LiveTv as these aircraft are not ETOPs and will fly exclusively within the Continental US and the Caribbean. The 12 that originally came from ATA will not receive DirecTv as they have ETOPs and are operating on flights to Hawaii where DirecTv will not work.

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: as739x
Posted 2012-12-14 10:03:32 and read 3878 times.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 33):
Departs SFO 0830 Arrives FLL 1705
Departs FLL 1755 Arrives SFO 2115

Interesting timing. This will be primary O/D traffic leaving this early from SFO.

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: tommy767
Posted 2012-12-14 10:59:20 and read 3811 times.

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 36):
True. But the CO merger has some rejuvenated UA to MIA.

Absolutely. EWR-MIA regularly sees PMUA 757 metal. Regardless, it seems United wants to be more dominant at FLL with the recent IAD and SFO adds, and the additional 757 metal to EWR and IAH.

Quoting boilerla (Reply 35):
Yesterday I was on a 738 that had fold-down screens like those on UA's Airbus fleet. Surprised me for a second--I had to double check I was actually on a 738. Not sure what that's about -- maybe for the A/C that fly to Hawaii or to LatAm out of range of DirecTV?

As said, some 738 have the fold down screens, most have directv, and some new deliveries have nothing. The fold down screens (ala UA A320) were the standard on the CO 737NG fleet through the late 2000s until they were replaced with the crap DTV programming.

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: psa1011
Posted 2012-12-14 11:12:43 and read 3776 times.

Now that UA serves SFO-South Florida, what will be the largest U.S. metro area without nonstop service? ATL? Then further down the list, CLT/BNA/MEM/TPA...?

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: EASTERN747
Posted 2012-12-14 11:20:54 and read 3760 times.

Timing sucks for cruise ship passengers. The ships usually leave around high tide, between 4-6 or so. Ships arrive in port around 6am and everyone is usually off by 10-11a or so. my 2 cents.

Topic: RE: UA Adding SFO-FLL
Username: tommy767
Posted 2012-12-14 11:22:24 and read 3763 times.

Quoting psa1011 (Reply 40):
Now that UA serves SFO-South Florida, what will be the largest U.S. metro area without nonstop service? ATL? Then further down the list, CLT/BNA/MEM/TPA...?

Has to be ATL or TPA. CLT is flown by US, but if/when they merge with AA I'm sure UA will jump in with a daily frequency to SFO.

There are also some smaller cities that can justify service to SFO on UA: IND, MEM, CMH etc.


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/