Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5632388/

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: mindscape
Posted 2012-12-11 05:21:15 and read 39534 times.

Delta Air Lines is going to invest $360M in acquiring 49% stakes in Virgin Atlantic from Singapore Airlines.
Press conference in preparation ! The aim is to obtain more access into LHR, and the brand VIRGIN ATLANTIC is to remain !

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: gdg9
Posted 2012-12-11 05:26:26 and read 39485 times.

Wow, thought the purchase price would be higher!

http://bit.ly/URCl2O

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: stlgph
Posted 2012-12-11 05:26:43 and read 39468 times.

Presser is this morning at New York Palace Hotel. It'll probably be available to listen in by phone or online ... I'll probably be there, but maybe I can pass along listen and log in information if anyone is interested before I head over.

Agreement will result in 31 peak flights a day between UK and North America.

Delta will get 3 seats on the Virgin board.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: VCy
Posted 2012-12-11 05:30:17 and read 39354 times.

Quoting stlgph (Reply 2):
Agreement will result in 31 peak flights a day between UK and North America.

How many were there before?

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-12-11 05:40:03 and read 39116 times.

Well now it's official. I still struggle to see how this is worth $360M to Delta - but Delta's management seems to think they know what they're doing!  

I don't expect regulatory approval to be too much of a struggle.

Regarding implementation, I think we can expect the two carriers to rapidly move to improve the joint JFK-LHR schedule where the two do currently overlap pretty closely. I also wonder what this will do for BOS-LHR, which is a market I don't think Delta has done all that great in but which Virgin has been serving for years and years. Beyond those two direct overlap routes, for sure this will also help Delta with both U.K. and U.S. POS, and it should definitely help with corporate accounts in certain key U.S. cities (SFO, IAD, MIA) that will now have a "Delta option" to LHR - although I doubt it will have too dramatic an impact in those cities, either, where other carriers (AA, BA, UA, etc.) are far larger and more entrenched.

Should be interesting to watch ...

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: EricR
Posted 2012-12-11 05:41:28 and read 39120 times.

DL did get an amazing price for the 49% stake. Hypothetically speaking, If DL were to sell all the LHR slots based on historical prices, the value would be more than $360 million. All the value appears to be in the slots. This doesn't speak well for Virgin itself.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: stlgph
Posted 2012-12-11 05:41:47 and read 39101 times.

Quoting VCy (Reply 3):

still chasing down exact numbers right now.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: SYDSpotter
Posted 2012-12-11 05:43:45 and read 39057 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 4):
Well now it's official. I still struggle to see how this is worth $360M to Delta - but Delta's management seems to think they know what they're doing!

Well SQ bought the original 49% stake for £600m (~$900m) back in the day, so they've taken a hefty hit !!
I guess for SQ it at least frees up some cash.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: docpepz
Posted 2012-12-11 05:44:26 and read 39009 times.

SQ paid GBP600 mil in 1999 - at GBP SGD exchange rates then it cost SGD1.8 bil (Today it would be SGD1.2 bil)
Today they sold it at GBP360 mil - at current USD SGD exchange rates it is SGD432 mil or just 24% of what they paid for it.

And if you factor the time value of money......

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: shilenb
Posted 2012-12-11 05:49:09 and read 38843 times.

Does this mean that VS will now join Skyteam?

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: KL911
Posted 2012-12-11 05:51:34 and read 38777 times.

Great news! Can we expect VS codeshare on KLM AMS-MAN and LHR, and AF CDG-MAN and LHR? Will VS become Flying Blue partner? I really really hope so.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: Alsatian
Posted 2012-12-11 05:52:28 and read 38711 times.

So something that the MEB3 won't get. Huge reorganisation for LHR terminals to come !

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: AirCanadaA330
Posted 2012-12-11 05:55:36 and read 38641 times.

Quoting shilenb (Reply 9):
Does this mean that VS will now join Skyteam?

Yeah I am wondering the same thing. Wasnt there a post a few months ago stating that Star wanted VS?


Delta sure got a good deal.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: KL911
Posted 2012-12-11 05:57:43 and read 38596 times.

Quoting AirCanadaA330 (Reply 12):
Delta sure got a good deal.

Just a shame its not allowed to have 51%. If AF-KL get 2%, does that count for ownership as 51% together?

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: acelanzarote
Posted 2012-12-11 05:59:12 and read 38517 times.

Wonder if any changes at MAN or GLA, would be nice to see more flights from these in time.
What about LGW, wonder what if anything might change there...

Unlike SQ who didn´t really take much interest in VS? I think Delta will be very hands
on. Long term I wonder if Virgin will get bought out completely...?

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: rj777
Posted 2012-12-11 06:08:27 and read 38228 times.

So now will they be adding the VS logo to all those DL/AF/KL signs at the airport gates?

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-12-11 06:12:19 and read 38121 times.

Quoting rj777 (Reply 15):
So now will they be adding the VS logo to all those DL/AF/KL signs at the airport gates?

I'm not clear on whether Virgin will actually be joining the existing Delta-Air France-KLM JV, let alone SkyTeam, or just a separate JV with just Delta. I would think they would be included in the existing JV, but it doesn't seem clear from the press release.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: gilesdavies
Posted 2012-12-11 06:15:06 and read 38059 times.

Quoting KL911 (Reply 13):
If AF-KL get 2%, does that count for ownership as 51% together?

The other 51% is held by Virgin Group, which is not on the stock markets so they would need to manage to get Richard Branson to free that up, which I doubt he will allow...

I wonder how Air France and KLM feel, as it potentially means this new tie up will take traffic away from their AMS and CDG hubs on routes to America. Especially now Virgin are going into the domestic market, they could attract customers from EDI, ABD and MAN to fly through LHR and on to a Delta flight.

Also I wonder if this will mean VS becoming a member of SkyTeam, or just a DL Partner?

As I imagine SkyTeam members in Europe will not be too keen in competing with another member of the group to destinations in Asia and Africa, they already fly... Also VS will not bring a great deal to the party, offering no feeders in Europe to other SkyTeam hubs and just duplicating many routes, flown from FCO, PRG, CDG and AMS.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2012-12-11 06:18:34 and read 37939 times.

Press release from DL out: http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=1822

Highlights of the agreement include:

• A fully integrated joint venture that will operate on a "metal neutral" basis with both airlines sharing the costs and revenues from all joint venture flights.
• A combined trans-Atlantic network between the United Kingdom and North America with 31 peak-day round-trip flights.
• Enhanced benefits for customers including cooperation on services between New York and London, with a combined total of nine daily round-trip flights from London-Heathrow to John F. Kennedy International Airport and Newark Liberty International Airport.
• Reciprocal frequent flyer benefits.
• Shared access to Delta Sky Club and Virgin Atlantic Clubhouse airport lounges for elite passengers.

The last item looks great!  

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: by738
Posted 2012-12-11 06:20:27 and read 37869 times.

Quoting acelanzarote (Reply 14):

Id say its less likely with everything getting funnelled through LHR

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: panamair
Posted 2012-12-11 06:23:58 and read 37814 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 16):
I'm not clear on whether Virgin will actually be joining the existing Delta-Air France-KLM JV, let alone SkyTeam, or just a separate JV with just Delta. I would think they would be included in the existing JV, but it doesn't seem clear from the press release.

I may be wrong, but I believe it's a new JV just between DL and VS - otherwise they would have mentioned the AF-KL-AZ JV in the press release; the press release also says "new joint venture". What this probably means is that the DL-operated flights to LHR (which currently carry the KL code as well), will now have KL and VS as codeshare partners, while the VS-operated LHR flights will only have DL as codeshare partner (not KL or AF).

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: LGWflyer
Posted 2012-12-11 06:25:24 and read 37781 times.

So with DL now having the 49% of Virgin, do you think there will be much change outside LHR, or any at all?

Also I wonder if DL should have stayed at LGW just a little longer...?

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-12-11 06:30:45 and read 37609 times.

Quoting panamair (Reply 20):
I may be wrong, but I believe it's a new JV just between DL and VS - otherwise they would have mentioned the AF-KL-AZ JV in the press release; the press release also says "new joint venture". What this probably means is that the DL-operated flights to LHR (which currently carry the KL code as well), will now have KL and VS as codeshare partners, while the VS-operated LHR flights will only have DL as codeshare partner (not KL or AF).

True - that would make sense given the press release. Interesting to see how that is handled, though, with the proprietary information sharing and everything else, given that Delta would then essentially have two different - and, ultimately, competing - JVs both "operating" the same flight.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: N62NA
Posted 2012-12-11 06:40:51 and read 37377 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 4):
I think we can expect the two carriers to rapidly move to improve the joint JFK-LHR schedule where the two do currently overlap pretty closely. I also wonder what this will do for BOS-LHR,

And I wonder if this means they'll end EWR-LHR.

Quoting shilenb (Reply 9):
Does this mean that VS will now join Skyteam?

Would seem to make sense that they would, but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: anstar
Posted 2012-12-11 06:45:19 and read 37267 times.

Quoting KL911 (Reply 13):
Just a shame its not allowed to have 51%. If AF-KL get 2%, does that count for ownership as 51% together?

Bransons stake was never up for sale.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 23):

And I wonder if this means they'll end EWR-LHR.

I would presume VS will continue to operate from that market as they have done for the last 28 years! They have just opened a brand new lounge there less than a month ago.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: avek00
Posted 2012-12-11 06:58:01 and read 38770 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 22):
True - that would make sense given the press release. Interesting to see how that is handled, though, with the proprietary information sharing and everything else, given that Delta would then essentially have two different - and, ultimately, competing - JVs both "operating" the same flight.

If VS is not brought into the existing Skyteam TATL JV, I expect the latter to be modified to create a "carve out" for LHR/LGW such that the SkyTeam partners would not cooperate on London flying.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: tjwgrr
Posted 2012-12-11 06:59:43 and read 38695 times.

Quoting shilenb (Reply 9):
Does this mean that VS will now join Skyteam?
Quoting LGWflyer (Reply 21):
So with DL now having the 49% of Virgin, do you think there will be much change outside LHR, or any at all?

Supplemental flights on VS from LHR to ATL and DTW someday? Similar to what KLM does at times from AMS?

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: DTWPurserBoy
Posted 2012-12-11 07:07:54 and read 39496 times.

It is interesting that this provides DL with another shot at LGW. The potential for domestic feed from DL to VS is excellent and gives Skyteam partners great access to prime time slots at LHR from a lot more cities. All in all DL is proving themselves to be creative in a very tough business environment. It also provides DL with a great source for maintenance issues while in the UK without having to go the expense of establishing a large maintenance base themselves. Can't wait to see what they do next. Maybe AS? They are sitting on a lot of cash and are always looking for a bargain that makes good economic sense, hence cornering the MD90 market and buying MD-82's from SK to be used as spares. With the refinery coming online it will be intersting to see how this affects the bottom line.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: Triple7X
Posted 2012-12-11 07:08:57 and read 39282 times.

Quoting docpepz (Reply 8):

That is a pretty low price....considering how much did SIA paid in the past for the shares

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: LJ
Posted 2012-12-11 07:11:35 and read 39301 times.

Quoting AirCanadaA330 (Reply 12):
Quoting shilenb (Reply 9):
Does this mean that VS will now join Skyteam?

Yeah I am wondering the same thing. Wasnt there a post a few months ago stating that Star wanted VS?

I don't think it's pretty much clear as DL and VS have a metal neutral JV and DL control 49% of VS.

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 17):

I wonder how Air France and KLM feel, as it potentially means this new tie up will take traffic away from their AMS and CDG hubs on routes to America.

They probably won't mind as there aren't so many connections to the European mainland. Moreover, this benefits them greately as they can sell Skyteam much better to their corporate clients.

BTW will be interesting to see if DL wants to use the second daily LHR-BOS slot and the daily LHR-MIA again, as they can free two daily VS slots for another flight.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: 9VSIO
Posted 2012-12-11 07:34:14 and read 38274 times.

I can't believe SQ let it go at such a low price.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: stlgph
Posted 2012-12-11 07:35:33 and read 38357 times.

Quoting VCy (Reply 3):
How many were there before?

for schedule, summer 2013, DAL @ 10, VAL @ 21.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: N62NA
Posted 2012-12-11 07:36:10 and read 38282 times.

Quoting anstar (Reply 24):

I would presume VS will continue to operate from that market as they have done for the last 28 years!

*Past performance is no guarantee of the future....  

But, anyway, it was announced just a little while ago that they will keep their EWR service.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: cosyr
Posted 2012-12-11 07:37:37 and read 38221 times.

Who will be moving where at LHR? There is not enough room at Terminal 4 for VS, and as it is now, there is not enough room at Terminal 3 for DL, unless AA moves out. That could happen, but then what about DL's other partners.

Terminal 3 could work if AA moves and AC moves to the new 1 soon, then there might be room for the more occasional Skyteam airlines at 3, but with the Skyteam lounge at 4, I would think 3 would be a bit of a step down.

Or could this be a catalyst for 3 getting a new terminal build after 1 is complete?

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: LGWflyer
Posted 2012-12-11 07:40:17 and read 37967 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 27):
It is interesting that this provides DL with another shot at LGW.

As much as I'd love them to come back here, I expect they most likely won't soon as they are only focused for LHR (and made it pretty clear). I do wonder however though if they did stay just a little more longer .i.e still here now, if anything would be different. Even though VS are big at the leisure routes from here, could DL have had an advantage now that they own 49% than before. Plus the VS HQ is just 2 mins down the road from Gatwick.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: globalflyer
Posted 2012-12-11 07:42:04 and read 37920 times.

If all but SkyTeam airlines left T4 at LHR and swapped with VS into T3 would that leave enough room? Also I would LOVE to see VS metal on some DL hubs routes like LHR-ATL. I soubt it will happen but it would be cool!

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2012-12-11 07:43:48 and read 37821 times.

What would change at LGW with DL and VS codesharing? It would make no difference to the bottom line except on LAS and MCO. It's not as if VS feed LGW, wishful thinking mate. They're not coming back, they're really not.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: ual777uk
Posted 2012-12-11 08:01:20 and read 37049 times.

As expected SRB is not giving up control of his Baby, that was never going to happen. I would like to see the small print in this deal. Is VS actually joining ST? Have I missed this somewhere?

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: STT757
Posted 2012-12-11 08:02:50 and read 37119 times.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 23):
And I wonder if this means they'll end EWR-LHR.
DL has recently added EWR-CDG and EWR-AMS. Bringing in VS's EWR-LHR obviously rounds out their international portfolio at EWR giving them 4 daily Trans-Atlantic flights from EWR.

[Edited 2012-12-11 08:03:40]

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: nwcoflyer
Posted 2012-12-11 08:06:13 and read 36920 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 4):
Well now it's official. I still struggle to see how this is worth $360M to Delta - but Delta's management seems to think they know what they're doing

I agree- DL management has done some real out side the box things lately. From the oil refinery to this, they never cease to amaze me. They have also been doing a good job on paying debt down. I wonder how long it will take them to see a return on this investment?

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: N62NA
Posted 2012-12-11 08:09:55 and read 36709 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 38):
DL has recently added EWR-CDG and EWR-AMS. Bringing in VS's EWR-LHR obviously rounds out their international portfolio at EWR giving them 4 daily Trans-Atlantic flights from EWR.

I noted that it was mentioned in their official announcement that they will be keeping EWR (for now), so not sure why you posted what you did. Here's my follow up post that you may have missed:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 32):
But, anyway, it was announced just a little while ago that they will keep their EWR service.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: shilenb
Posted 2012-12-11 08:15:51 and read 36515 times.

Quoting cosyr (Reply 33):
Terminal 3 could work if AA moves

AA will never move from T3 as this does not agree for Heathrow's plan to have alliance members under 1 terminal

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: AF185
Posted 2012-12-11 08:19:20 and read 36361 times.

Quoting LJ (Reply 29):
Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 17):

I wonder how Air France and KLM feel, as it potentially means this new tie up will take traffic away from their AMS and CDG hubs on routes to America.
Quoting LJ (Reply 29):
They probably won't mind as there aren't so many connections to the European mainland. Moreover, this benefits them greately as they can sell Skyteam much better to their corporate clients.

I agree, I think DL-VS will mostly capture the London market from all over the US, while the AF-KL-DL-AZ JV will keep focusing on both P2P and connections throughout Europe.

Congrats to DL, impressive coverage of European markets thanks to their well managed partnerships and investments!

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: anstar
Posted 2012-12-11 08:24:54 and read 36068 times.

Quoting Triple7X (Reply 28):

That is a pretty low price....considering how much did SIA paid in the past for the shares
SQ bought at a PEAK - it was also a time that LHR was alot more closed and restricted and everyone thought LHR was profitable regardless.

Things have changed, the Middle East carriers are much more competitive with SQ nowdays. SQ have refocussed and have now invested in Virgin Australia and are focussing more on their region.

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 37):
Is VS actually joining ST? Have I missed this somewhere?
VS have mentioned they are now evaluating Skyteam entry - I would guess they will announce it after all the dust settles.

Quoting AF185 (Reply 42):
while the AF-KL-DL-AZ JV will keep focusing on both P2P and connections throughout Europe.



The JV covers all UK - US/Canada/Mexico direct flying.

So that includes GLA-MCO, MAN-LAS, MAN-MCO on VS and MAN-ATL with DL.

It is not jsut LHR/LGW

[Edited 2012-12-11 08:34:59]

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: GCT64
Posted 2012-12-11 08:26:47 and read 35932 times.

Quoting avek00 (Reply 25):
If VS is not brought into the existing Skyteam TATL JV, I expect the latter to be modified to create a "carve out" for LHR/LGW such that the SkyTeam partners would not cooperate on London flying.

The TATL JV situation seems to be possibly getting quite complex and untidy. So DL could easily have a TATL JV with AF/KL offering JFK-EDI (via AMS) competing with a TATL JV with VS offering JFK-EDI (via LHR). How, without breaking non-disclosure agreements between the various parties, does DL avoid being in a price war with itself?

BTW - it might be a contrary viewpoint, and I have no fanboi-ism about anyone or any axe to grind, but I think it will all end in tears

[Edited 2012-12-11 08:28:41]

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: STT757
Posted 2012-12-11 08:30:52 and read 35804 times.

With the addition of VS DL's EWR-Trans-Atlantic portfolio is impressive, four daily! Not too many (any?) cities in the US can claim to have four daily Trans-Atlantic flights from a non hub carrier. VS also recently opened a new Clubhouse at EWR:

http://www.jaunted.com/story/2012/12...+Class+Clubhouse+at+Newark+Airport

Could this become a Delta club, either replacing or complimenting their existing club room. Perhaps for AMS and CDG travelers?

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2012-12-11 08:31:41 and read 35767 times.

So will Virgin still be the anchor tennant in th STAR terminal at LHR now? Oh wait that was last week's plan! Will we see them in T4? Nope, no room. Staying with Oneworld in T3 then I guess!

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: seansasLCY
Posted 2012-12-11 08:35:13 and read 35539 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 46):

So will Virgin still be the anchor tennant in th STAR terminal at LHR now? Oh wait that was last week's plan! Will we see them in T4? Nope, no room. Staying with Oneworld in T3 then I guess!

According to the current webcast Delta will seek to colocate with VS at T3.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: anstar
Posted 2012-12-11 08:35:27 and read 35525 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 46):
So will Virgin still be the anchor tennant in th STAR terminal at LHR now? Oh wait that was last week's plan! Will we see them in T4? Nope, no room. Staying with Oneworld in T3 then I guess!

Domestic flights will operate from T2 from 2014.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: questions
Posted 2012-12-11 08:35:44 and read 35655 times.

DL has been trying for the past few years to be hipper than AA and UA, e.g., new Sky Club designs and IFE. Seems that they could use a little help from VS to shake that down south image.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: GCT64
Posted 2012-12-11 08:37:56 and read 35525 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 46):
So will Virgin still be the anchor tennant in th STAR terminal at LHR now? Oh wait that was last week's plan!

I seem to recall that was last week's plan from VS, I'm not certain BAA ever even publicly acknowledged VS' plan/desire for the new T2/1!   Anyway, the project manager for the new terminal is probably breathing a sigh of relief and can get back to dealing with UA, LH and the others.

Could DL join VS in T3 once SQ, SK et al move out? that should be possible.

EDIT ... I now see: "According to the current webcast Delta will seek to colocate with VS at T3."

Looks like I had a great idea  Smile

[Edited 2012-12-11 08:39:04]

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: slinky09
Posted 2012-12-11 08:55:04 and read 34855 times.

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 50):
I seem to recall that was last week's plan from VS, I'm not certain BAA ever even publicly acknowledged VS' plan/desire for the new T2/1!   Anyway, the project manager for the new terminal is probably breathing a sigh of relief and can get back to dealing with UA, LH and the others.

Could DL join VS in T3 once SQ, SK et al move out? that should be possible.

Just been announced that VS domestic will move from T1 to T2 in 2014 and DL have said that they're aiming to move from T4 to T3 to be with VS long haul.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: 777
Posted 2012-12-11 08:56:20 and read 34276 times.

Quoting panamair (Reply 20):
I may be wrong, but I believe it's a new JV just between DL and VS - otherwise they would have mentioned the AF-KL-AZ JV in the press release; the press release also says "new joint venture". What this probably means is that the DL-operated flights to LHR (which currently carry the KL code as well), will now have KL and VS as codeshare partners, while the VS-operated LHR flights will only have DL as codeshare partner (not KL or AF).

Guess how happy may be AF after this move that creates direct conflict with the already existing TATL JV.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2012-12-11 09:00:26 and read 34059 times.

I would love to see a SLC-LHR with a 767-300 if they have extra slots in the distant future....fingers crossed

I would have to think this means an eventual entry to skyteam

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: a300 american
Posted 2012-12-11 09:03:22 and read 33992 times.

What does this do (if anything) to DL wanting to "buy" AA? My first reaction would be that would put their buying in jeopardy. Thoughts?

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: etops1
Posted 2012-12-11 09:12:17 and read 33611 times.

First of all , Delta does not wan to buy AA . Where did you get that from ?

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: GCT64
Posted 2012-12-11 09:12:37 and read 33621 times.

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 51):
Just been announced that VS domestic will move from T1 to T2 in 2014

That's not really a "move" as T1 will disappear and large tracts of it absorbed into T2. T1 will close and T2 will open but many of the gates will be the same.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: GCT64
Posted 2012-12-11 09:18:03 and read 33420 times.

Quoting etops1 (Reply 55):
First of all , Delta does not wan to buy AA . Where did you get that from ?
Delta Trying To Buy AA? (by blueman87 Aug 12 2012 in Civil Aviation)?

But IIRC it was never a really viable plan and wasn't taken seriously here

[Edited 2012-12-11 09:18:54]

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: a300 american
Posted 2012-12-11 09:22:18 and read 33195 times.

Quoting etops1 (Reply 55):

Whooops, my bad, it's USAirways I was thinking about. No need to jump down anyone's throat.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: brilondon
Posted 2012-12-11 09:26:10 and read 33091 times.

Quoting EricR (Reply 5):
This doesn't speak well for Virgin itself.

I just flew on VS and am hoping that it would be influencing the way things are done at DL, although they seem to have the better service than the other main carriers in the states.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: michiganatc
Posted 2012-12-11 09:38:15 and read 32529 times.

What does this mean for DL and VS employees? Do you think DL employees will be able to fly on VS for free? I'm assuming no. I bet it will be something like the Alaska JV where it's a reduced ZED fare.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: cessna2
Posted 2012-12-11 09:40:29 and read 32457 times.

This is great news! Bye bye AA RDU-LHR....Hello DL RDU-LHR/CDG

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: etops1
Posted 2012-12-11 09:44:19 and read 32298 times.

I hope DL cabin crews don't get the shaft with this . They are non union . DL could easily have VA take over their LHR flts with VA crews . DL FA have no scope or protections against stuff like this . Could be scary . And this does not at all put a potential AA/US merger in jeopardy . On the contrary , I think it solidifies the need for both carriers to Merge .

[Edited 2012-12-11 09:46:32]

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: jmw99ttu
Posted 2012-12-11 09:49:39 and read 32054 times.

Quoting cessna2 (Reply 61):

This is great news! Bye bye AA RDU-LHR....Hello DL RDU-LHR/CDG


Why would this end AA's RDU-LHR route? Did GSK end their contract with AA for this route?

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-12-11 09:55:56 and read 31823 times.

Quoting cessna2 (Reply 61):
Bye bye AA RDU-LHR....Hello DL RDU-LHR/CDG

  

Why would this have any impact on that?

Quoting etops1 (Reply 62):
I hope DL cabin crews don't get the shaft with this . They are non union . DL could easily have VA take over their LHR flts with VA crews

No way. DL places value and strategic importance on having its brand present at LHR. If anything this enhances that, not detracts from it. DL is certainly not going to hand their LHR flying to VS - that's just as preposterous as suggestions that VS is just going to be consumed into DL and the VS brand will disappear. In both respects - not going to happen.

Quoting etops1 (Reply 62):
Could be scary . And this does not at all put a potential AA/US merger in jeopardy . On the contrary , I think it solidifies the need for both carriers to Merge .

I actually don't think this has much impact on AA/BA one way or the other, but I agree that it certainly doesn't in any way undermine whatever logic there is for an AA/US merger.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: panamair
Posted 2012-12-11 09:57:49 and read 31771 times.

Quoting 777 (Reply 52):
Guess how happy may be AF after this move that creates direct conflict with the already existing TATL JV.

From the just-ended press conference, AF-KL have been supportive of this deal. And there are indications from all sides that this will eventually fold into the existing DL-AF-KL-AZ joint venture. VS mentioned that they will be looking at DL's existing partners to look for additional opportunities, including possible Skyteam entry down the road.

Frankly, I think AF-KL have simply not had the time to work on such a deal, given their current focus on their own restructuring efforts.

Quoting etops1 (Reply 62):
They are non union . DL could easily have VA take over their LHR flts with VA crews . DL FA have no scope or protections against stuff like this . Could be scary

DL's existing JVs have shown that your 'scare' scenario will not happen. In fact, with the current AF-KL-AZ JV, DL has more flights on their own metal to AMS and CDG now than ever before. For instance, CDG will see 12 DL-metal flights a day next summer; that's more DL metal than ever, even with the combined DL and NW flights from a few years ago.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: cessna2
Posted 2012-12-11 09:57:56 and read 31739 times.

Quoting jmw99ttu (Reply 63):
Why would this end AA's RDU-LHR route? Did GSK end their contract with AA for this route?

Delta has been trying to take the contract for years. But the lack of connections in LHR with DL made it an issue. So DL decided to start up CDG. AA then threatened to end LHR service if GSK signed a contract with DL as well. So with this announcement today I can foresee DL taking over LHR from AA.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: DTWPurserBoy
Posted 2012-12-11 10:00:03 and read 31644 times.

Quoting etops1 (Reply 62):
I hope DL cabin crews don't get the shaft with this . They are non union . DL could easily have VA take over their LHR flts with VA crews . DL FA have no scope or protections against stuff like this . Could be scary . And this does not at all put a potential AA/US merger in jeopardy . On the contrary , I think it solidifies the need for both carriers to Merge

Another union vote is in the works. This news will just add fuel to the fire. Look for IAM to represent the f/a's in the not-too-distant future. The times,they area changin'.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-12-11 10:01:51 and read 31614 times.

Quoting cessna2 (Reply 66):
Delta has been trying to take the contract for years. But the lack of connections in LHR with DL made it an issue. So DL decided to start up CDG. AA then threatened to end LHR service if GSK signed a contract with DL as well. So with this announcement today I can foresee DL taking over LHR from AA.

Respectfully, I think that's ridiculous. DL would only pick up RDU-LHR if AA decided they no longer wanted the market. A large portion of that flight is supported by local O&D at both ends, with a healthy portion of it U.K.-originating. BA has a far larger network and broader offering to U.K. FFs than VS does or will have. In addition, the flight is also supplemented with plenty of connections onward beyond LHR to destinations across the globe. VS cannot now, nor will it be able to, replicate anywhere near as many connections. VS will offer convenient, 1-stop connectivity to essentially MAN/EDI/ABZ, and only a handful of longhaul destinations beyond LHR - the rest of VS' beyond-LHR flying is generally all timed poorly to connect to/from the U.S., with evening LHR departures and/or arrivals.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: EddieDude
Posted 2012-12-11 10:02:48 and read 31435 times.

Quoting avek00 (Reply 25):
If VS is not brought into the existing Skyteam TATL JV, I expect the latter to be modified to create a "carve out" for LHR/LGW such that the SkyTeam partners would not cooperate on London flying.

Yes, I would imagine that the JV agreements among DL, AF-KL and AZ will need to be amended.

Quoting seansasLCY (Reply 47):
According to the current webcast Delta will seek to colocate with VS at T3.

That is interesting. I suppose VS and DL would want to use T3 and that would leave the rest of the SkyTeam airlines that fly to LHR as T4 tennants. I don't think this is that big a deal since it is very unlikely that there is a meaningful number of passengers connecting from DL flights to the likes of AF, AZ, MU, KQ, KL, SV, etc. and vice versa at LHR.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: NYCAdvantage
Posted 2012-12-11 10:23:14 and read 30647 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 45):

With the addition of VS DL's EWR-Trans-Atlantic portfolio is impressive, four daily! Not too many (any?) cities in the US can claim to have four daily Trans-Atlantic flights from a non hub carrier. VS also recently opened a new Clubhouse at EWR:


Could this become a Delta club, either replacing or complimenting their existing club room. Perhaps for AMS and CDG travelers?

Since you bring this up, I wonder if DL/VS would add another EWR-LHR do you think it would affect the O/D LHR traffic on UA?

Today's Delta's management seems working in a whole different level, Congratulations to them.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2012-12-11 11:03:09 and read 29283 times.

Quoting cessna2 (Reply 61):
This is great news! Bye bye AA RDU-LHR....Hello DL RDU-LHR/CDG

Why?
Delta's move into T3 won't go down well I suspect. It's a tip in comparison to T4! All very jolly if you're premium but for the rest of us, not so great(!)

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: Triple7LR
Posted 2012-12-11 11:06:04 and read 29223 times.

I guess we will see SEA-LHR. RA hinted it would be the next international destination from SEA when DL announced SEA-HND and SEA-PVG.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: EddieDude
Posted 2012-12-11 11:07:43 and read 29172 times.

Quoting panamair (Reply 65):
AF-KL have been supportive of this deal. And there are indications from all sides that this will eventually fold into the existing DL-AF-KL-AZ joint venture. VS mentioned that they will be looking at DL's existing partners to look for additional opportunities, including possible Skyteam entry down the road.

Frankly, this makes a lot of sense for everyone. I would not be surprised if AF-KL would make a move to acquire all or part of Branson's stake further down the road.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: FlyDeltaJets
Posted 2012-12-11 11:13:18 and read 28924 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 67):

I see a JV creating more flights from the US on DL to connect with the VS presence in the UK. I don't see how this will lead to reduction of DL F/A work.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: Kleiner
Posted 2012-12-11 11:19:54 and read 28700 times.

How does this play out on routes? I assume some non-hub flights are cut due to redundancy? Does this mean VS metal will change to DL on some routes, allowing VS to enter new US markets?

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: Tardis
Posted 2012-12-11 11:22:30 and read 28582 times.

Great news for Delta! I wonder how this will changes things at Virgin??

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: Revelation
Posted 2012-12-11 11:24:17 and read 28534 times.

Quoting EricR (Reply 5):
DL did get an amazing price for the 49% stake. Hypothetically speaking, If DL were to sell all the LHR slots based on historical prices, the value would be more than $360 million. All the value appears to be in the slots. This doesn't speak well for Virgin itself.

DL can't own more than 49% of VA, and Branson controls 51% of VA, so the slots won't be changing hands, they'll just be utilized to maximize the profit of the joint venture. Given Branson's control of the shares and thus the board, DL is taking the risk that Branson will be using VAs assets to maximize such profit, because SRB still is holding the controlling interest in VA and thus has a lot of freedom of action.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: MSPNWA
Posted 2012-12-11 11:29:48 and read 28395 times.

$360m is a lot to risk on a small, currently unprofitable airline. Can this purchase turn VS around? We'll see.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: tommy767
Posted 2012-12-11 11:30:43 and read 28454 times.

Jesus H Christ Delta, you continue to impress me!

Quoting N62NA (Reply 23):
And I wonder if this means they'll end EWR-LHR.

Since EWR was praised in the official DL.com press release, I sincerely doubt it.

However since EWR-LHR is now a JV route, it's possible that a DL 763 could operate it along it's sister routes: EWR-AMS/CDG.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 45):
Could this become a Delta club, either replacing or complimenting their existing club room. Perhaps for AMS and CDG travelers?

Good question. I think it will remain a Virgin club but if it changes perhaps it would become a Sky Team Club, considering the DL club in B-1 is essentially a small closet.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: N62NA
Posted 2012-12-11 11:34:43 and read 28170 times.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 79):
However since EWR-LHR is now a JV route, it's possible that a DL 763 could operate it along it's sister routes: EWR-AMS/CDG.

That wouldn't surprise me at all. VS "leaving" EWR in that manner.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: fpetrutiu
Posted 2012-12-11 11:35:36 and read 28201 times.

Now on CNN as well: http://money.cnn.com/2012/12/11/news...rgin-airlines/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

[Edited 2012-12-11 11:36:48]

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: tommy767
Posted 2012-12-11 11:39:05 and read 28008 times.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 80):

That wouldn't surprise me at all. VS "leaving" EWR in that manner.

I mean, would they "leave" or would it just be codeshared on DL metal? I must say, DL's new check in lobby at Terminal B is pretty sharp. It can easily handle the AMS, CDG and if it were to ever happen, LHR flights at the same time.

I highly doubt they would entirely since EWR-LAX/SFO was just announced (granted, they will be operating from AA's gates instead in A.)

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: N62NA
Posted 2012-12-11 11:46:18 and read 27703 times.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 82):

I mean, would they "leave" or would it just be codeshared on DL metal?

Let's put it this way: It wouldn't surprise me that a VS airplane would not be visiting EWR.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: TeamInTheSky
Posted 2012-12-11 11:48:24 and read 27732 times.

Hi All,

A late night of work is ahead for me here in London because I have been distracted by this news, but I do want to flavor in a couple of comments from the press conference (found here: http://www.media-server.com/m/p/6ws7w4x6).

* Regarding SkyTeam - Julie Southern stated that Virgin Atlantic is certainly looking into the joining an alliance membership "if it's a right thing to do for the business." Currently they have been working to form the JV with Delta, but they will be engaging with SkyTeam to determine addtional benefits. The decision to join could come in the "next FEW months." ~ Hopefully that means yes!

* Regarding moving of airline - Virgin will likely insist that Delta move to T3. ~Pretty exciting if they start allowing Medallions to use the Clubhouse. However, would they need to expand the lounge?

* Reciprical Frequent Flyer Miles - Should come pretty soon. Much quicker than JV. ~ Hopefully they allow accrual of MQM's


A couple of other comments. Great for Delta for having a JV with both Virgin Atlantic and Virgin Australia. It would be interesting to see if there is ever a deal down the line between Delta and Virgin America. I also agree with some that the eventual aim is to have this JV tied up with AF / KL / AZ JV, but currently I beleive the other JV is under scruitiny by authorities. Given that, both VS and DL probably see the easiest way to get this up and running is through just a singular JV with the other bit coming later.

Again, great for Delta. I cannot wait to burn some miles on Virgin Upperclass!

Regards,

Team

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: Mir
Posted 2012-12-11 11:58:23 and read 27339 times.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 79):
However since EWR-LHR is now a JV route, it's possible that a DL 763 could operate it along it's sister routes: EWR-AMS/CDG.

That's not nearly enough capacity for that route. Why waste the airplane on a route that is already well served with VS's larger aircraft? DL's JV strategy has normally been to give up bigger routes with low margins to their partners (i.e. JFK-CDG, which is almost all AF now), so that they can use their own smaller airplanes on routes that wouldn't be economically viable with their partners' larger aircraft. Putting 767s on EWR-LHR completely goes against that.

-Mir

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: sqsfo
Posted 2012-12-11 12:09:22 and read 27014 times.

WIth this deal going thru, VS/DL could be the major superpower across the pond into UK(specifically LHR). I wonder if DL/VS will try to improve or build a a west coast system( SFO would mainly be O&D but LAX could get some feeder traffic?) Maybe this can even give a.nutter crazies the chance to do SYD-LAX-LHR!?

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: Prost
Posted 2012-12-11 12:16:15 and read 26732 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 85):
That's not nearly enough capacity for that route. Why waste the airplane on a route that is already well served with VS's larger aircraft? DL's JV strategy has normally been to give up bigger routes with low margins to their partners (i.e. JFK-CDG, which is almost all AF now), so that they can use their own smaller airplanes on routes that wouldn't be economically viable with their partners' larger aircraft. Putting 767s on EWR-LHR completely goes against that.

Perhaps the slots can be finessed where an additional flight from EWR is provided with a DL 767, supplementing the VS flight. This is all hypothesis, and there will be a lot of shakeout once the JV gets approved. Just a few days ago, many on this forum were saying this would never happen, now we're hearing how it is going to be severely challenged/constrained.

Perhaps we can let the ink dry on the signatures, get the JV approved, and allow both airlines to begin their preparations?

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: panamair
Posted 2012-12-11 12:18:31 and read 26763 times.

Quoting sqsfo (Reply 86):
WIth this deal going thru, VS/DL could be the major superpower across the pond into UK(specifically LHR)

BA/AA will still be the major 'superpower' between the US and LHR, but this deal does put both VS and DL in a better competitive position vis-a-vis BA/AA.

On the Delta side, this very nicely rounds up Delta's coverage of the most important European markets (LHR is #1, followed by a distant #2 - CDG/France). Delta's key European destinations will now be LHR, CDG, AMS, and FCO - not bad at all for some of the key European markets (Germany is the one big missing piece, though Germany would not be nearly as big a hole as LHR to fill, and DL does cover Germany relatively well for a US carrier with no German partner).

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-12-11 12:19:09 and read 26710 times.

Questions....with this 49% stake in VS, would DL be allowed to fleet-transfer a/c from VS to DL, and vice versa?

Will this increase VS service to cities in the US or detract from it?

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: FlyCaledonian
Posted 2012-12-11 12:20:44 and read 26676 times.

Quoting LJ (Reply 29):
BTW will be interesting to see if DL wants to use the second daily LHR-BOS slot and the daily LHR-MIA again, as they can free two daily VS slots for another flight.

If DL applied for the second BOS-LHR again, it could allow VS to discontinue its own LHR-BOS flight as you say and launch another flight elsewhere. This could be a new destination (LHR-SEA) or perhaps to take on an existing DL frequency (say a DL LHR-ATL flight) to allow DL to launch a new flight (LHR-SEA).

I don't think DL can apply for the MIA-LHR slot any longer, as US is using this to operate MIA-CLT-LHR (just like DL is operating DFW-ATL-LHR to get the DFW slot at LHR).

I wonder if we could see SLC get a London connection, even if only LGW, in part supported by Virgin Holidays pushing it as a destination (particularky in Winter)?

I also wonder what the DL-VS joint venture means for the VS codeshare with US? With the depth of this deal I can't see VS maintaining a deal with US, so I wonder if even US doesn't merge with AA they'd consider jumping ship to oneworld?

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2012-12-11 12:40:19 and read 26032 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 27):
Can't wait to see what they do next.

TIme to turn their attention south......time to set up shop in MIA if you ask me (as all the major latin partners have gone to one world or *A)

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: mah4546
Posted 2012-12-11 12:44:51 and read 25908 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 38):
Quoting cessna2 (Reply 66):
Delta has been trying to take the contract for years. But the lack of connections in LHR with DL made it an issue. So DL decided to start up CDG. AA then threatened to end LHR service if GSK signed a contract with DL as well. So with this announcement today I can foresee DL taking over LHR from AA.

You do realize that lack of connections is still an issue, right?

Are you seriously trying to compare BA's LHR network with that of another carrier?

Raleigh-Europe is a tiny market. It's lucky enough to have one non-stop. A second isn't happening.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: LHRFlyer
Posted 2012-12-11 12:46:15 and read 25803 times.

Quoting Triple7LR (Reply 72):
I guess we will see SEA-LHR. RA hinted it would be the next international destination from SEA when DL announced SEA-HND and SEA-PVG.

Which raises an interesting question. Apart from JFK there's little overlap between Delta and Virgin's network. I'm sure Delta would like to add more flights to existings hubs at ATL and elsewhere. Delta and Virgin don't have any spare slot pairs so is Virgin going to pull any Africa/Asia routes to add transatlantic capacity?

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: STT757
Posted 2012-12-11 12:54:03 and read 25618 times.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 83):
It wouldn't surprise me that a VS airplane would not be visiting EWR.
Quoting Mir (Reply 85):
That's not nearly enough capacity for that route. Why waste the airplane on a route that is already well served with VS's larger aircraft? DL's JV strategy has normally been to give up bigger routes with low margins to their partners (i.e. JFK-CDG, which is almost all AF now), so that they can use their own smaller airplanes on routes that wouldn't be economically viable with their partners' larger aircraft. Putting 767s on EWR-LHR completely goes against that.

I doubt VS would leave EWR, for starters EWR is a premium route for VS with two daily flights. The only other cities with two or more VS flights to London are JFK and LAX, all the others (MIA, LAS, IAD, BOS, SFO etc..) are single daily.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: N62NA
Posted 2012-12-11 13:06:57 and read 25203 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 85):
Why waste the airplane on a route that is already well served with VS's larger aircraft? ... Putting 767s on EWR-LHR completely goes against that.

4 of the 9 flights on that route are 757s, so apparently larger aircraft aren't a requirement for success on EWR-LHR.

VS only has 2 flights on EWR-LHR. We keep having it beaten into our brains here on a.net that "frequency is king" so DL selling seats on just 2 flights out of EWR (one in the morning, one in the evening) isn't very good for "the businessman."

I think Tommy767's idea of DL 763s taking the place of VS's aircraft on this route has merit - assuming DL could add at least another flight or two in the evening out of EWR.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: cmf
Posted 2012-12-11 13:19:50 and read 24868 times.

Quoting KL911 (Reply 13):
Just a shame its not allowed to have 51%. If AF-KL get 2%, does that count for ownership as 51% together?

Isn't it ironic how an airline that complained about SRB and other non Americans owning too much of a US airline is now owning much more of SRB's airline in Europe.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: clrd4t8koff
Posted 2012-12-11 14:08:02 and read 23434 times.

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 90):
If DL applied for the second BOS-LHR again, it could allow VS to discontinue its own LHR-BOS flight as you say and launch another flight elsewhere.

I can't imagine why VS, who is an established carrier on the BOS-LHR sector, would want to give up a premium TA route like that only to establish themselves in a new market like SEA where they've had no presence? It would be MUCH more profitable for DL to establish this route given their current presence in SEA.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: QANTASvJet
Posted 2012-12-11 14:28:37 and read 22880 times.

schedule
1 DL buys 49% of VS & they do codeshare deal
2 VS applies, and is allowed, to join the DL/AF-KLM anti-trust immunity deal. AF-KLM buy some but not all of SRB's shares in VS, which joins SkyTeam
3 Air Berlin leaves OneWorld and joins SkyTeam. Etihad, Aer Lingus and Virgin Australia also join SkyTeam.
4 DL buys VA which also joins SkyTeam. Operates as a brand that appeals to consumers who like to think of themselves as independently-minded while actually enjoying all the advantages offered by big corporates. (ie Apple customers.)
5 All concerned put feet up and light cigars

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-12-11 14:34:53 and read 22798 times.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 78):
$360m is a lot to risk on a small, currently unprofitable airline.

UA paid $400 million in 1990 (equivalent to about $700 million today) for Pan Am's LHR routes. And AA paid about $555 million (equivalent to $940 million today) for TWA's LHR routes in 1991. Those transactions were of course for 100%, not 49%.

Quoting Tardis (Reply 76):
I wonder how this will changes things at Virgin?

They should change their name from Virgin Atlantic to Virgin Atlanta.  

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: LDVAviation
Posted 2012-12-11 14:35:11 and read 22731 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 92):
Are you seriously trying to compare BA's LHR network with that of another carrier?

Yup, there is only one network airline at LHR and only one alliance will have a true hub there.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: AusA380
Posted 2012-12-11 14:59:27 and read 22145 times.

Now that a US airline has purchased up to 49% of a major airline in a 1st world country, will this trigger some thinking of allowing the rest of the world to be able to purchase up to 49% of US airlines if they wanted to?

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: brilondon
Posted 2012-12-11 15:00:09 and read 22148 times.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 69):
That is interesting. I suppose VS and DL would want to use T3 and that would leave the rest of the SkyTeam airlines that fly to LHR as T4 tennants. I don't think this is that big a deal since it is very unlikely that there is a meaningful number of passengers connecting from DL flights to the likes of AF, AZ, MU, KQ, KL, SV, etc. and vice versa at LHR.

I can only see this as a plus for people who are connecting through LHR. I personally don't care but I can see how not going to CDG would be positive.

Quoting Triple7LR (Reply 72):

I guess we will see SEA-LHR. RA hinted it would be the next international destination from SEA when DL announced SEA-HND and SEA-PVG.

Let us hope that is the case. It certainly would make the trip to London, UK quicker that having to either transit through MSP, LAX, or JFK from HNL.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-12-11 15:04:07 and read 22126 times.

Congrats UA/Star on suddenly becoming the third-run in LHR Transatlantic; I wonder what their next move will be...

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 100):
Yup, there is only one network airline at LHR and only one alliance will have a true hub there.

True, but this gives Skyteam a good boost, and further locks Star out.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 67):
Another union vote is in the works

There's always one in the works.

Quoting commavia (Reply 64):
I actually don't think this has much impact on AA/BA one way or the other

   It really doesn't change much on the LON point of sale as long as VS has no regional/shorthaul network to speak of; it does make them slightly more appealing now that they have a legitimate network partner in the US.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: brilondon
Posted 2012-12-11 15:09:43 and read 21872 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 103):
It really doesn't change much on the LON point of sale as long as VS has no regional/shorthaul network to speak of; it does make them slightly more appealing now that they have a legitimate network partner in the US.

Was there not something about EI flying domestically for VS on these threads, although I can't see it being like a feeder to LHR unless there is going to be another announcement about former BD routes being taken over by VS.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: Mir
Posted 2012-12-11 15:10:30 and read 21890 times.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 95):
4 of the 9 flights on that route are 757s, so apparently larger aircraft aren't a requirement for success on EWR-LHR.

When you throw United into the mix, you're going to have lots of 757s, yes.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 95):
VS only has 2 flights on EWR-LHR. We keep having it beaten into our brains here on a.net that "frequency is king" so DL selling seats on just 2 flights out of EWR (one in the morning, one in the evening) isn't very good for "the businessman."

"The businessman" is probably going to be flying on United EWR-LHR. DL's strong market is out of JFK - they don't have nearly the same following across the Hudson, and would get beaten badly if they tried to go after one of United's prime routes. All they're really looking for is a piece of the local O&D market, and a couple of flights per day is sufficient for that.

-Mir

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: FlyCaledonian
Posted 2012-12-11 15:13:26 and read 21776 times.

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 97):
I can't imagine why VS, who is an established carrier on the BOS-LHR sector, would want to give up a premium TA route like that only to establish themselves in a new market like SEA where they've had no presence? It would be MUCH more profitable for DL to establish this route given their current presence in SEA.

Well the aim of the JV is to be metal neutral, so costs and profits of all flights UK-USA will be shared between VS and DL. My hypothetical suggestion of VS giving up LHR-BOS would be because it would be a way for the joint venture carriers to pick up an extra LHR slot (from AA/BA) and then transfer an existing slot to launch a new route.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: usdcaguy
Posted 2012-12-11 15:16:49 and read 21710 times.

Quoting AusA380 (Reply 101):
Now that a US airline has purchased up to 49% of a major airline in a 1st world country, will this trigger some thinking of allowing the rest of the world to be able to purchase up to 49% of US airlines if they wanted to?

Not likely, as long as the Democrats are in charge of the Senate and White House. Why in the world should they enact more flexible legislation when it would not appeal to American airline workers, many of whom are represented by unions that support the Democrats? Come to think of it, most American carriers would not even agree to it. No reason to open yourself up to outside influence unless there's cash to be made, and that's no longer the concern it was before so many carriers went through bankruptcy.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: N62NA
Posted 2012-12-11 15:36:58 and read 21246 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 105):
"The businessman" is probably going to be flying on United EWR-LHR. DL's strong market is out of JFK - they don't have nearly the same following across the Hudson, and would get beaten badly if they tried to go after one of United's prime routes. All they're really looking for is a piece of the local O&D market, and a couple of flights per day is sufficient for that.

Yep - though they have 2 flights already - adding another 1 or 2 in the evening would give them a fighting chance.  

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 107):
Not likely, as long as the Democrats are in charge of the Senate and White House. Why in the world should they enact more flexible legislation when it would not appeal to American airline workers, many of whom are represented by unions that support the Democrats?

I try to steer clear of politics on here, but there's one thing that you wrote that I'm not so sure is correct. My gut tells me that the rank and file airline union workers (most likely pilots and mechanics) probably did not vote Democrat. Though it would be interesting to get some inside perspective on this.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: BD338
Posted 2012-12-11 15:39:46 and read 21249 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 102):
I can only see this as a plus for people who are connecting through LHR. I personally don't care but I can see how not going to CDG would be positive.

Connections from LHR - are limited to UK destinations only. Per the fact sheet on the DL Newsroom site. Connections to european destinations are handled via AMS and CDG. This deal is all about DL access to LHR and then feeding to/from their US network. Be interesing to see how integrated they become. As a Y passenger with lots of Skymiles, I will be able to take advantage of the better (IMHO) Y product on VS and VA across both oceans on both sides of the USA  
Quoting AusA380 (Reply 101):
Now that a US airline has purchased up to 49% of a major airline in a 1st world country, will this trigger some thinking of allowing the rest of the world to be able to purchase up to 49% of US airlines if they wanted to?

it would be nice to think so, but I doubt it. There is no rational reason for the current 25% limit. Defense contractors can be owned by foreign companies but not airlines. Logic?


....and for DL's next trick...buy VX  

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: Prost
Posted 2012-12-11 15:59:42 and read 20754 times.

Quoting BD338 (Reply 109):
it would be nice to think so, but I doubt it. There is no rational reason for the current 25% limit. Defense contractors can be owned by foreign companies but not airlines. Logic?

My understanding is the US can mobile the civil fleet of airlines for use in times of war, and that flexibility for readiness might be taken away if the fleets were owned by foreign powers.

It is quite amazing how much in our nation is tied to defense--ie. the interstate system.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: AusA380
Posted 2012-12-11 16:10:25 and read 20549 times.

Quoting Prost (Reply 110):
My understanding is the US can mobile the civil fleet of airlines for use in times of war, and that flexibility for readiness might be taken away if the fleets were owned by foreign powers.

But if the airline is still 50.1% US owned with majority US Citizens on the board, why would the board allow plane to leave the country in the time of a crisis. Also, in the event of a crisis, surely air traffic control would not permit departures. Not sure the defence argument is a real issue.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-12-11 16:11:49 and read 20548 times.

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 60):
What does this mean for DL and VS employees? Do you think DL employees will be able to fly on VS for free? I'm assuming no. I bet it will be something like the Alaska JV where it's a reduced ZED fare.

It was possible back in the 90s when DL and VS had their codeshare tie up. Things have changed, since,though, when trying to fly with Skyteam and JV members. Most of them are now ZED fares.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 67):
Another union vote is in the works. This news will just add fuel to the fire. Look for IAM to represent the f/a's in the not-too-distant future. The times,they area changin'.

Unless I'm mistaken, DL has never done this on ANY of the JV flights and I don't see why they would, now. Just another way for the unions to spin it to try and get the rank and file to vote their way.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: FlyKev
Posted 2012-12-11 16:35:27 and read 20097 times.

Never saw this coming but I think VS is an excellent fit for the new Delta and I look forward to seeing this joint venture in action and I hope it makes my Flying Club membership so much more worthwhile.

Kev.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-12-11 16:40:05 and read 20048 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 112):
Unless I'm mistaken, DL has never done this on ANY of the JV flights and I don't see why they would, now. Just another way for the unions to spin it to try and get the rank and file to vote their way.

It's ridiculous; AF's unions are the ones that should be throwing the tantrum since DL has picked up half their US flying 

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: delimit
Posted 2012-12-11 17:01:42 and read 19656 times.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 100):
Yup, there is only one network airline at LHR and only one alliance will have a true hub there.

While this doesn't much strengthen DL/SkyTeam for LHR fliers vs. BA, it does nicely add to their bargaining power for anyone that wants to fly to London. And, of course, all those loyal VS fliers in the UK will start being funneled onto DL's planes for travel beyond the VS ports in the US.

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 60):
Quoting Prost (Reply 110):
My understanding is the US can mobile the civil fleet of airlines for use in times of war, and that flexibility for readiness might be taken away if the fleets were owned by foreign powers.

That logic is so very outdated at this point, unless someone believes that a EU-owned US carrier would deny the US gov's request for planes.

The law is pure protectionism at this point.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: dank
Posted 2012-12-11 17:30:55 and read 19151 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 94):
I doubt VS would leave EWR, for starters EWR is a premium route for VS with two daily flights. The only other cities with two or more VS flights to London are JFK and LAX, all the others (MIA, LAS, IAD, BOS, SFO etc..) are single daily.

SFO is double daily on VS most of the year.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: olddominion727
Posted 2012-12-11 17:35:52 and read 19116 times.

I bet we'll see VS SEA-LHR not too long after the tie-up. Does SA)">DL still fly MIA-LON? Does VS? I bet we see that condensed to one and the other's code on it. Maybe VS to SLC? This ties in with VS' order for the A330, match SA)">DL, KL, AF. I think this does add more legitimacy to ST instead of thinking it to be a band of third-world carriers like SV, SU, CI, VN. I think they really need SA though...

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: notdownnlocked
Posted 2012-12-11 17:38:25 and read 19052 times.

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 60):

I would guess 100% NO!!! Used to be all flights codeshared with a DL number were free to employees just as if flying on DL. Back then I flew VS Upper Class JFK-LHR-LAX as well Varig, Sabena, Austrian, and others. Now with the ZED program nothing is free.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2012-12-11 17:48:35 and read 18870 times.

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 60):
What does this mean for DL and VS employees? Do you think DL employees will be able to fly on VS for free? I'm assuming no. I bet it will be something like the Alaska JV where it's a reduced ZED fare.

Definitely not free! It would probably be similar to the AF/KL JV fares. Lower than ZED-low fares. In 2009, I flew AF 773 CDG-JFK for $46 (plus taxes). Also, while DL upgrades non-revs, AF didn't. VS probably won't either. Oh well, at least the price is right!

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: EddieDude
Posted 2012-12-11 17:57:55 and read 18707 times.

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 84):
Reciprical Frequent Flyer Miles - Should come pretty soon. Much quicker than JV. ~ Hopefully they allow accrual of MQM's

Good point. MQMs accrual should be possible. Other DL non-SkyTeam "alliance" partners allow that, right? I am talking about AS, HA and VA specifically.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 89):
Questions....with this 49% stake in VS, would DL be allowed to fleet-transfer a/c from VS to DL, and vice versa?

In a metal-neutral JV, it does not make sense to transfer DL planes to VS and viceversa. I don't think this is in the cards. Maybe in the future a joint order for better bargaining power could take place.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 99):
They should change their name from Virgin Atlantic to Virgin Atlanta.

LOL! Made me laugh a lot man.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 102):
I can only see this as a plus for people who are connecting through LHR. I personally don't care but I can see how not going to CDG would be positive.

Well, but the number of SkyTeam destinations ex-LHR that DL fliers will have available through VS and the SkyTeam members that serve LHR is substantially lower than the destinations that AMS, CDG and FCO offer (the same applies for SkyTeam passengers flying to the U.S. from Europe and Asia). That is why I believe the number of SkyTeam connecting passengers at LHR is not very meaningful. Plus, AMS is a great airport for connections, and it is not only the hub of DL's JV partner KL, but also a hub (of sorts) of DL itself (legacy of NW). Even with the VS JV, LHR will continue to be for DL a mostly O&D destination by far.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-12-11 18:04:34 and read 18616 times.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 120):
In a metal-neutral JV, it does not make sense to transfer DL planes to VS and viceversa.

Most people are so clueless when it comes to JVs. I mean look at some of the replies, "DL not going to fly to LHR anymore so the FAs are gonna get pissed and vote union." Ridiculous.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: N62NA
Posted 2012-12-11 18:18:25 and read 18414 times.

Quoting delimit (Reply 115):
And, of course, all those loyal VS fliers in the UK will start being funneled onto DL's planes for travel beyond the VS ports in the US.

I'm not so sure that would work too well at JFK and EWR as DL really doesn't have such an extensive domestic network out of those (though they do have more out of JFK than EWR).

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: delimit
Posted 2012-12-11 18:28:47 and read 18249 times.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 122):
I'm not so sure that would work too well at JFK and EWR as DL really doesn't have such an extensive domestic network out of those (though they do have more out of JFK than EWR).

Works out of JFK for a number of destinations, unless the VS flight arrives after the DL connection bank. Should offer a few connections out of BOS as well.

And, of course, if you're interested in earning Virgin miles, there's the DL flights to ATL, with connections to basically everywhere.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: DTWLAX
Posted 2012-12-11 18:40:57 and read 18093 times.

First of all, congratulations to Delta for striking such an amazing deal.

DL, with this JV with VS, is now a major player in the US-UK market. Another important aspect of this JV is the tremendous boost DL (and Skyteam hopefully) gets in the LAX-LHR market.
We all know how the AF flight fared on this route a few years ago with no feed at all on both ends. Now they go from no flight on the route to 2x daily (3x in summer) leapfrogging UA and Star Alliance in the process.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2012-12-11 18:50:32 and read 17953 times.

Just somthing I found. I'm betting DL is pushing hard for a VA-SkyTeam knot.

Quote:
Delta’s plan is to continue to have its trans-Atlantic joint venture with Air France-KLM and Alitalita and add the Virgin Atlantic piece to its network as its own joint venture. Virgin Atlantic executives said the deal with Delta would be the first steps for it to evaluate formal membership into SkyTeam.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: danielkandi
Posted 2012-12-11 19:04:09 and read 17761 times.

Sorry i cant read through all of this and make sense of it. but does this mean flying blue members will eventually get to earn points, or only delta card holders?

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: delimit
Posted 2012-12-11 19:05:43 and read 17823 times.

Quoting danielkandi (Reply 126):

Sorry i cant read through all of this and make sense of it. but does this mean flying blue members will eventually get to earn points, or only delta card holders?

I would guess just DL until VS decides to join SkyTeam.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: VV701
Posted 2012-12-11 19:17:27 and read 17685 times.

Quoting sqsfo (Reply 86):
WIth this deal going thru, VS/DL could be the major superpower across the pond into UK(specifically LHR).

Not really likely.

Last winter (2011-12) BA/AA offered 60 per cent of the scheduled seats between LHR and all North American destinations. Between them DL and VS offered only 19 per cent. Check it out on page 12 here:

http://www.msmaviation.com/publicdocs/Transat_Winter_2011_2012.pdf

Simply obtaining the LHR slots to treble their North Atlantic offering would be a significant initial hurdle.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-12-11 19:32:27 and read 17408 times.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 120):
In a metal-neutral JV, it does not make sense to transfer DL planes to VS and viceversa. I don't think this is in the cards. Maybe in the future a joint order for better bargaining power could take place.

So there's some speculation then that VS could end up ordering more Boeing planes?

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2012-12-11 19:42:26 and read 17336 times.

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 37):

doesn't matter. VS won't join star with a DL JV. VS will very likely end up in the AF/KL/DL/AZ JV and SkyTeam.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 45):
Could this become a Delta club, either replacing or complimenting their existing club room. Perhaps for AMS and CDG travelers?

not likely on the first one, likely on the 2nd.

Quoting etops1 (Reply 62):
They are non union . DL could easily have VA take over their LHR flts with VA crews . DL FA have no scope or protections against stuff like this . Could be scary .

two things, Delta still has to deal with DALPA which does have limits on JV flying. Also Delta is about to have another FA vote. They are stupid enough to outsource 10 TATL flights right before a union vote.

Quoting panamair (Reply 65):

DL's existing JVs have shown that your 'scare' scenario will not happen. In fact, with the current AF-KL-AZ JV, DL has more flights on their own metal to AMS and CDG now than ever before. For instance, CDG will see 12 DL-metal flights a day next summer; that's more DL metal than ever, even with the combined DL and NW flights from a few years ago.

.....whoa. Nice example with CDG/AMS, but how about we take a look at the rest of Europe......

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 67):
Look for IAM to represent the f/a's in the not-too-distant future.

IAM? where is this coming from? AFA/TWU joint union thing(run....run as fast as you can FAs. Not playing. (and run from the worthless IAM too)) is the one pushing for the new vote.

Quoting NYCAdvantage (Reply 70):

Since you bring this up, I wonder if DL/VS would add another EWR-LHR do you think it would affect the O/D LHR traffic on UA?

highly unlikely. Growth in NYC-LON will be from JFK.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 78):
$360m is a lot to risk on a small, currently unprofitable airline. Can this purchase turn VS around? We'll see.

doesn't matter. The LHR slots alone are worth this. (plus)

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 89):
Questions....with this 49% stake in VS, would DL be allowed to fleet-transfer a/c from VS to DL, and vice versa?

not like your thinking. DL/VS can always lease each other aircraft though.

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 93):
Which raises an interesting question. Apart from JFK there's little overlap between Delta and Virgin's network. I'm sure Delta would like to add more flights to existings hubs at ATL and elsewhere. Delta and Virgin don't have any spare slot pairs so is Virgin going to pull any Africa/Asia routes to add transatlantic capacity?

AF/KL still have slots that can be used for LHR growth. (AF still has the ex SEA/LAX slots on CDG-LHR)

Quoting STT757 (Reply 94):

I doubt VS would leave EWR, for starters EWR is a premium route for VS with two daily flights. The only other cities with two or more VS flights to London are JFK and LAX, all the others (MIA, LAS, IAD, BOS, SFO etc..) are single daily.

agreed.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 95):
assuming DL could add at least another flight or two in the evening out of EWR.

wont happen.

Quoting QANTASvJet (Reply 98):
4 DL buys VA which also joins SkyTeam. Operates as a brand that appeals to consumers who like to think of themselves as independently-minded while actually enjoying all the advantages offered by big corporates. (ie Apple customers.)

VX would then have to fly jets with 76 seats or less.

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 97):
I can't imagine why VS, who is an established carrier on the BOS-LHR sector, would want to give up a premium TA route like that only to establish themselves in a new market like SEA where they've had no presence? It would be MUCH more profitable for DL to establish this route given their current presence in SEA.

Delta and virgin are going to be the same. Delta could(I think) get a slot from BA to fly BOS-LHR 2x daily, then DL use the old BOS-LHR VS slot for SEA-LHR. Virgin/Delta are going to want tog row as much as they can, this is an easy way to do so.

Quoting mayor (Reply 112):
Just another way for the unions to spin it to try and get the rank and file to vote their way.

.....uh it is an issue. They have zero protection. it *could* happen. As i say below, Richard wanted to replace NWA FAs across the Atlantaic at one point. He could do it tomorrow at Delta(again, he wont. you don't piss off employees right before a union vote, or if they have been voting and it has been as close as it has been with Delta lately.)

Quoting mayor (Reply 112):
Unless I'm mistaken, DL has never done this on ANY of the JV flights and I don't see why they would, now

they havent.

Quoting olddominion727 (Reply 117):
I bet we'll see VS SEA-LHR not too long after the tie-up.

I bet you wont. A DL 763 is much more likely.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 119):
Definitely not free! It would probably be similar to the AF/KL JV fares. Lower than ZED-low fares. In 2009, I flew AF 773 CDG-JFK for $46 (plus taxes). Also, while DL upgrades non-revs, AF didn't. VS probably won't either. Oh well, at least the price is right!

this is why you use AF/KL as a back up plan only, or fly to AMS/CDG on Delta metal.  
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 121):

slow down. Its not stupid. Delta FAs have no scope, no protection. Delta *could* replace them with contract workers if they wanted. IIRC Richard had a plan like this when he was at NWA. (of course the Union told him to piss up a rope)

but it wont happen. Delta is trying to kiss FA butt, not piss em off.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-12-11 19:55:03 and read 17093 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 130):
not like your thinking. DL/VS can always lease each other aircraft though.

What's the probability of that happening, and what kinds of leases? like, which a/c to who and vice versa? This is a very curious acquisition to me

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-12-11 20:39:32 and read 16600 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 131):
What's the probability of that happening, and what kinds of leases? like, which a/c to who and vice versa? This is a very curious acquisition to me

First of all, this isn't really an "acquisition" at all. It's a proposal for a codeshare, JV and hopefully, membership in Skyteam. They acquired 49% but VS still controls things, keeps their brand and operate as a separate airline.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: danielkandi
Posted 2012-12-11 20:42:58 and read 16555 times.

god I hope they join Skyteam! Before my australia 4city tour in April plz!!!

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: MSPNWA
Posted 2012-12-11 20:44:39 and read 16604 times.

About all I see in this is DL spending $360 million to bolster the NYC-LON market. Very little of the VS network conflicts with DL. So DL isn't eliminating a competitor except on the JFK-LHR and BOS-LHR routes. The rest of the network is either overlap with the AF/KL JV (the VS hub at LHR) or competing with other airlines like before. The change at JFK is going to be the magic potion that turns the VS side of things around? Or a shuffling of LHR slots to new cities like SEA? I doubt the cure is that simple. There's a lot of risk to this deal for DL. The one good news for SkyTeam is that maybe eventually they'll have LAX-LHR flights now.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 130):

doesn't matter. The LHR slots alone are worth this. (plus)

You bet it matters. It's called return on investment. DL is acquiring a significant stake in an airline that currently isn't making money. They need to turn that around or they will end up a net loser like SQ did. VS is showing that having LHR slots doesn't mean a thing on its own. There could be better ways to spend $360m.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-12-11 21:03:51 and read 16399 times.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 134):
About all I see in this is DL spending $360 million to bolster the NYC-LON market. Very little of the VS network conflicts with DL. So DL isn't eliminating a competitor except on the JFK-LHR and BOS-LHR routes. The rest of the network is either overlap with the AF/KL JV (the VS hub at LHR) or competing with other airlines like before. The change at JFK is going to be the magic potion that turns the VS side of things around? Or a shuffling of LHR slots to new cities like SEA? I doubt the cure is that simple. There's a lot of risk to this deal for DL. The one good news for SkyTeam is that maybe eventually they'll have LAX-LHR flights now.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 130):
doesn't matter. The LHR slots alone are worth this. (plus)
You bet it matters. It's called return on investment. DL is acquiring a significant stake in an airline that currently isn't making money. They need to turn that around or they will end up a net loser like SQ did. VS is showing that having LHR slots doesn't mean a thing on its own. There could be better ways to spend $360m.

I often wonder why you aren't sitting in DL's boardroom.  

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: questions
Posted 2012-12-11 21:11:33 and read 16307 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 135):
I often wonder why you aren't sitting in DL's boardroom.

That's Alaska Airlines... he's in the Sky Club.  

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: viscount630
Posted 2012-12-11 21:38:53 and read 16091 times.

Hopefully DL will take the opportunity to pick up some valuable customer service tips from VS, so that they can try and re-educate their notoriously rude, grumpy, bored, arrogant, scruffy F/As and Passenger Agents on how to present themselves and how to do their job PROPERLY     

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-12-11 21:46:08 and read 15992 times.

Quoting viscount630 (Reply 137):

I think I'll call BS on this one         

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: EddieDude
Posted 2012-12-11 21:46:33 and read 15968 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 129):
So there's some speculation then that VS could end up ordering more Boeing planes?

That, I don't know. For the time being, VS has outstanding orders for A330s and 787s, no?

Quoting mayor (Reply 132):
First of all, this isn't really an "acquisition" at all. It's a proposal for a codeshare, JV and hopefully, membership in Skyteam. They acquired 49% but VS still controls things, keeps their brand and operate as a separate airline.

I am sorry to disappoint you, but it is an acquisition. It is the acquisition of 49% of the equity of VS. It may not be the acquisition of full control, but it is an acquisition.

Quoting mayor (Reply 132):
VS still controls things

VS is the entity that issues the shares and is the business that will be owned by Branson and DL once the deal closes. VS controls nothing. The controlling shareholder in any case is Branson... perhaps that is what you meant to write. In any event, control will be shared between Branson and DL to certain extent. In addition to DL being able to appoint 3 of the 7 directors, DL has more likely than not negotiated a wide array of supermajority rights that will give it veto power regarding relevant actions by the company.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: anstar
Posted 2012-12-11 22:19:56 and read 15709 times.

Quoting BD338 (Reply 109):
Connections from LHR - are limited to UK destinations only.

Surely VS would also like to try and get some of the US-India.South Africa traffic connecting at LHR too from DL?

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 139):
That, I don't know. For the time being, VS has outstanding orders for A330s and 787s, no?

Not A330's - they have all been delivered by Airbus.

They have 15 x 787's coming from 2014

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-12-11 22:23:42 and read 15677 times.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 139):
I am sorry to disappoint you, but it is an acquisition. It is the acquisition of 49% of the equity of VS. It may not be the acquisition of full control, but it is an acquisition.

When I think of an acquisition, I think of them acquiring controlling interest in the airline or the airline, themselves. To me, this is just paying to make sure that VS agrees to go into the JV and/or Skyteam.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 139):
VS is the entity that issues the shares and is the business that will be owned by Branson and DL once the deal closes. VS controls nothing. The controlling shareholder in any case is Branson... perhaps that is what you meant to write.

Excuse me. When I think of VS, I think of Branson and none of this would have happened without his ok. To me, they are interchangable, hence, why I used VS instead of Sir Richard's name.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: dank
Posted 2012-12-11 23:37:59 and read 15044 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 141):
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 139):
I am sorry to disappoint you, but it is an acquisition. It is the acquisition of 49% of the equity of VS. It may not be the acquisition of full control, but it is an acquisition.

When I think of an acquisition, I think of them acquiring controlling interest in the airline or the airline, themselves. To me, this is just paying to make sure that VS agrees to go into the JV and/or Skyteam.

I'd agree. If there wasn't a 51% shareholder out there, then DL likely would have control, but at the end of the day... Some of the comments suggest that DL will be running the show, but it's not like there wasn't a 49% shareholder before and I don't think people were thinking SQ ran the show...

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: CapEd388
Posted 2012-12-12 01:41:03 and read 14130 times.

Quoting dank (Reply 142):
Quoting mayor (Reply 132):

Thank you! Can you please help me teach some sense to the people on Virgin Atlanitc's facebook. I have been trying to teach them on what this deal is and what it means.

I know its like banging my head against he wall, but comments like "ugh Delta sucks! I wont fly with Virgin anymore" or "Delta sucks! how could you do this Virgin?" and "Virgin is now going to go down hill because of this" etc.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2012-12-12 01:42:22 and read 14147 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 129):

They have 787s on order.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 131):

In this case nothing. Delta wont be taking any VS planes and VS wont be getting any Delta planes.

but in theory Delta could least any aircraft in its fleet to Virgin. Delta did this once with 2(IIRC) 737-832s going to westjet for a short amount of time(back with Delta now)

Quoting mayor (Reply 132):

First of all, this isn't really an "acquisition" at all. It's a proposal for a codeshare, JV and hopefully, membership in Skyteam. They acquired 49% but VS still controls things, keeps their brand and operate as a separate airline.

Its a stock acquisition but Branson still has control.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 134):
You bet it matters. It's called return on investment. DL is acquiring a significant stake in an airline that currently isn't making money. They need to turn that around or they will end up a net loser like SQ did. VS is showing that having LHR slots doesn't mean a thing on its own. There could be better ways to spend $360m.

Really? My goodness. Why aren't you the CEO dude? your always so clearly ahead of the the guys at Delta.....  
Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 134):
About all I see in this is DL spending $360 million to bolster the NYC-LON market. Very little of the VS network conflicts with DL. So DL isn't eliminating a competitor except on the JFK-LHR and BOS-LHR routes. The rest of the network is either overlap with the AF/KL JV (the VS hub at LHR) or competing with other airlines like before. The change at JFK is going to be the magic potion that turns the VS side of things around? Or a shuffling of LHR slots to new cities like SEA? I doubt the cure is that simple. There's a lot of risk to this deal for DL. The one good news for SkyTeam is that maybe eventually they'll have LAX-LHR flights now.

This really isn't about helping VS. Heck I'm not even sure you will still see the airline 5 years from now. Its all about Delta growing to LHR. They just went from 10 flights a day to 31, tripled its NYC-LHR flights and also got key markets such as LAX-LHR, MIA-LHR and BOS-LHR.
Virgins (IMO) problem is the lack of any shorthaul network. Now, having a strong US partner with good feed in all of VS "big" cities, will help. Getting VS in Skyteam with will help VS more as it will give them some (limited) short haul codeshares out of LHR.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 139):

VS is the entity that issues the shares and is the business that will be owned by Branson and DL once the deal closes. VS controls nothing. The controlling shareholder in any case is Branson... perhaps that is what you meant to write. In any event, control will be shared between Branson and DL to certain extent. In addition to DL being able to appoint 3 of the 7 directors, DL has more likely than not negotiated a wide array of supermajority rights that will give it veto power regarding relevant actions by the company.

No way for us to know this really, but I don't think Delta is trying to play hero here just yet. I think Branson knows whats wrong with VS....sadly about the only to fix it would be buy BA.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 139):
That, I don't know. For the time being, VS has outstanding orders for A330s and 787s, no?

I think they have taken all the 330s but do have 787s on order.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: LifelinerOne
Posted 2012-12-12 03:05:13 and read 13516 times.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 139):
That, I don't know. For the time being, VS has outstanding orders for A330s and 787s, no?

And for A380's....

Cheers!   

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: slinky09
Posted 2012-12-12 04:15:02 and read 12900 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 144):
Virgins (IMO) problem is the lack of any shorthaul network.

VS launches short haul flying on March 31 next year.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: Dano1977
Posted 2012-12-12 04:39:08 and read 12721 times.

I hate rain on peoples parades.

All of the above is just speculation until the necessary regulatory approvals have been rubber stamped.

Although I'm sure it's just crossing the T's and dotting the i's.


But

Hypothetically speaking... Could there be potential spanners in the works?

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: DTWPurserBoy
Posted 2012-12-12 06:22:33 and read 12129 times.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 91):
TIme to turn their attention south......time to set up shop in MIA if you ask me (as all the major latin partners have gone to one world or *A)

I could not agree more. A "Braniff International" type route structure out of MIA would be logical with routes to LIM, GYE, UIO, EZE, SCL, PTY, LPB and others. The 767-300ER would be a great airplane for it, too. The domestic system can provide ample feed to MIA. Gate space there might become an issue, however.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: LJ
Posted 2012-12-12 06:25:20 and read 12134 times.

Quoting QANTASvJet (Reply 98):

1 DL buys 49% of VS & they do codeshare deal
2 VS applies, and is allowed, to join the DL/AF-KLM anti-trust immunity deal. AF-KLM buy some but not all of SRB's shares in VS, which joins SkyTeam
3 Air Berlin leaves OneWorld and joins SkyTeam. Etihad, Aer Lingus and Virgin Australia also join SkyTeam.
4 DL buys VA which also joins SkyTeam. Operates as a brand that appeals to consumers who like to think of themselves as independently-minded while actually enjoying all the advantages offered by big corporates. (ie Apple customers.)
5 All concerned put feet up and light cigars

Maybe also on Skyteams timetable:
- EY buying into 9W and/or IT (whatever will happen)
- EY buying into a curently unknown airline which is up for sale or which needs cash

It surprised me it wasn't EY buying VS but DL....

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 144):
Getting VS in Skyteam with will help VS more as it will give them some (limited) short haul codeshares out of LHR.

You forget that VS, once in Skyteam, will also have feed at PVG. Moreover, I think that AF/KL can finally find good use of its excess slots at LHR, now it can reshuffle it more effeciently with the VS pool of slots.

BTW maybe we'll be seeing those VS birds again at AMS for maintenance.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: questions
Posted 2012-12-12 06:53:12 and read 12007 times.

How might DL and VS use "metal neutral" to their advantage? How might capacity be adjusted? Which new routes could be added?

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: LDVAviation
Posted 2012-12-12 06:56:53 and read 11983 times.

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 146):
VS launches short haul flying on March 31 next year.

And, how successful was BMI at that before they ceased to exist?

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-12-12 08:09:54 and read 11848 times.

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 146):
VS launches short haul flying on March 31 next year.

To what, two destinations?

Quoting anstar (Reply 140):
Surely VS would also like to try and get some of the US-India.South Africa traffic connecting at LHR too from DL?

VS doesn't offer anything that AF/KL/DL didn't offer before, in terms of connectivity over LON. This is really about getting a good foot in the door in terms of London point of sale frequent flyers, which before such a deal, had no strong reason to choose Skyteam.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: Pu
Posted 2012-12-12 08:27:39 and read 11787 times.

This is overwhelmingly about Delta picking up premium NYC flyers.

...and a little bit about Delta skimming premium fliers from BOS, ORD, LAX.

Despite all the cheesy repetitions of the value of frequent flier miles, the top customers between NY and London just don't give a damn about frequent flier mile schemes. EOS, MaxJet, Silverjet, OpenSkies (and others) were created because of this ultra-premium market. That is the Real prize. If you're someone who needs a big plate of options from LaGuardia and appreciates a big schedule from NY to London (and other overseas destinations JFK---), Delta is winning your business.

This is not very much about connections in London. It's about NY.

VS already has a very loyal following on BOTH sides of the Atlantic for their unique product offering, *admittedly they have struggled of late*, but letting the 100 million or so SkyMiles members connecting from the hinterlands fill up the back while Delta strengthens premium NYC business is the idea here....and oh, yeah, Virgin's UK customers suddenly get the entire Americas as an option on Delta...but all these connections are secondary to NY-LON premium spenders.

Delta intends to be #1 in New York....watch for another big move or 2 soon enough.

Pu

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: EddieDude
Posted 2012-12-12 09:08:22 and read 11611 times.

Quoting anstar (Reply 140):
Not A330's - they have all been delivered by Airbus.

They have 15 x 787's coming from 2014

Thank you!

Quoting mayor (Reply 141):
When I think of an acquisition, I think of them acquiring controlling interest in the airline or the airline, themselves.

You are free to think of acquisitions any way you like. That does not change the fact that this deal involves an acquisition which, as I have clearly said already, does not entail control, but only a 49% stake.

Quoting mayor (Reply 141):
When I think of VS, I think of Branson and none of this would have happened without his ok. To me, they are interchangable, hence, why I used VS instead of Sir Richard's name.

Mr. Branson and Virgin Atlantic are separate and distinct entities.

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 147):
All of the above is just speculation until the necessary regulatory approvals have been rubber stamped.

Agree. DL has only agreed to acquire shares and SQ has only agreed to sell them. A multitude of conditions need to be satisfied before the shares are actually transferred and the money is effectively paid. That said, I think it is pretty much a done deal. Little by little all these conditions will be satisfied and the deal will be closed.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2012-12-12 09:51:39 and read 11490 times.

VS short haul is to three destinations, ABZ, EDI and MAN. If they are serious I would expect GLA to follow, if not, I would expect these slots to go to long haul.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: anstar
Posted 2012-12-12 10:06:53 and read 11404 times.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 151):
And, how successful was BMI at that before they ceased to exist?

And what long haul network were BMI feeding? Others - not their own.

At least VS (like BA) will be feeding shorthaul pax onto their own long haul flights

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: VS11
Posted 2012-12-12 10:40:06 and read 11300 times.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 134):
There could be better ways to spend $360m.

Ever thought of why DL is getting a share of VS? It is not really necessary for the JV to happen...but if this entire effort is to be profitable, then DL is netting 74% of it, while Branson 26% so maybe you should reexamine your logic...also about VS needing to be turned around...they have been spending 100m (not sure pounds or dollars) on new products and planes, which is probably the cause of the current year losses..VS is not BMI, they don't need a savior....This new JV should be working great for both parties...Maybe DL should cut VX some slack, you know, for good measure  

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-12-12 10:43:38 and read 11247 times.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 154):
Mr. Branson and Virgin Atlantic are separate and distinct entities.

Perhaps you should discuss this little "detail" with SRB, himself and see what his take is on it.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: LDVAviation
Posted 2012-12-12 10:47:27 and read 11223 times.

Quoting anstar (Reply 156):
And what long haul network were BMI feeding? Others - not their own.

At least VS (like BA) will be feeding shorthaul pax onto their own long haul flights

It is unclear that the flights VS is adding will give it the traffic flows it needs to sustain a long haul network, which is currently unprofitable.

With even larger traffic flows to and from LHR, BMI was never able to build a long haul network.

BTW, that traffic was largely unprofitable for BMI. So, where are the margins that VS needs at this point going to come from?

Also, there is no comparison here between VS and BA. I suspect that BA needs fewer connecting passengers to make the whole scheme work, both because it commands higher premiums per passenger and because it long ago reduced its reliance on connecting passengers at LHR by optimizing its European and UK short haul network.

Add this to the mix. Delta will not be the kind of partner to VS that AA has been to BA. AA seeks primarily to transfer its passengers over LHR onto BA flights to Europe, India, the Middle East. It remains to be seen whether Delta with its own ambitions in those parts of the world will be so kind. I doubt they will as they already have an alliance with AF that picks up the slack in those parts of the world.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: anstar
Posted 2012-12-12 11:08:02 and read 11126 times.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 159):
It is unclear that the flights VS is adding will give it the traffic flows it needs to sustain a long haul network, which is currently unprofitable.

It has only been unprofitable for something like 2 or 3 years out of its 28 year hsitory.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 159):
BMI was never able to build a long haul network.

But the BMI brand was never really established overseas... I;d argue that Virgin is a known brand in the USA, India, Japan etc

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 159):
So, where are the margins that VS needs at this point going to come from?

Presumably fromt heir long haul operations... they must know who was connecting previously and run the numbers. If the airlines was such a basket case then I seriously doubt DL would have paid such an amount of money for a 49% stake.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: AAIL86
Posted 2012-12-12 12:13:21 and read 10919 times.

Well this is certainly a good move by DL and VS, offering a potential of significant benefits for both. Right now DL is not a major player on NYC-LON and this will certainly give them a chance to be, thereby increasing their total NYC portfolio.

Quoting Pu (Reply 153):
This is overwhelmingly about Delta picking up premium NYC flyers.

...and a little bit about Delta skimming premium fliers from BOS, ORD, LAX.

Despite all the cheesy repetitions of the value of frequent flier miles, the top customers between NY and London just don't give a damn about frequent flier mile schemes. EOS, MaxJet, Silverjet, OpenSkies (and others) were created because of this ultra-premium market. That is the Real prize. If you're someone who needs a big plate of options from LaGuardia and appreciates a big schedule from NY to London (and other overseas destinations JFK---), Delta is winning your business.

This is not very much about connections in London. It's about NY.

Delta intends to be #1 in New York....watch for another big move or 2 soon enough.

Nobody doubts that DL wants to be #1 in New York and has made a big push in recent years to capture more of the market. This helps them a lot to New York's most important international market, but hardly means that they are on the verge of dominating New York. If anything, they've had a chance to make some inroads while UA and AA put their respective houses in order. Look for both UA and AA to get increasingly aggressive in the future there ....

Also, while this move certainly makes them a major player on NYC-LHR, they are still going to be far beyond AA/BA in total number of seats and frequencies (I'm not saying that they need operate the same amount of flights AA/BA do to accomplish their probable goals - which is to compete on more corporate contracts and a bit more of the premium market).

Take a look at the flights operating tomorrow (13DEC12), for example...


DL/VS LHR-JFK

DL 4 LHRJFK 940A 105P 767
DL 6 LHRJFK 1250P 420P 764
DL 2 LHRJFK 550P 920P 764

VS 3 LHRJFK 920A 1220P 333
VS 45 LHRJFK 100P 405P 744
VS 9 LHRJFK 450P 800P 346
VS 25 LHRJFK 725P 1040P 333

DL/VS LHR-EWR

VS 1 LHREWR 400P 705P 744
VS 17 LHREWR 810P 1125P 346




AA/BA LHR-JFK

* AA operated flight

BA 117 LHRJFK 830A 1110A 744
BA 175 LHRJFK 1000A 1245P 744
BA 1516 LHRJFK 1045A 140P 777*
BA 1588 LHRJFK 1235P 340P 777*
BA 177 LHRJFK 110P 400P 777
BA 173 LHRJFK 225P 515P 77W
BA 1506 LHRJFK 250P 600P 777*
BA 115 LHRJFK 415P 705P 744
BA 1510 LHRJFK 505P 810P 777*
BA 179 LHRJFK 600P 900P 777
BA 1518 LHRJFK 715P 1020P 777*
BA 183 LHRJFK 800P 1040P 744

AA/BA LHR-EWR

BA 185 LHREWR 1100A 155P 777
BA 189 LHREWR 240P 540P 767
BA 187 LHREWR 525P 825P 777

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2012-12-12 13:49:19 and read 10670 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 130):
this is why you use AF/KL as a back up plan only

That WAS my backup plan.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-12-12 14:07:28 and read 10614 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 130):
but it wont happen. Delta is trying to kiss FA butt, not piss em off.

Which is why I'm pretty sure DL isn't going to "pull something sneaky." It's not like the union vote was a landslide No

Quoting questions (Reply 150):
How might DL and VS use "metal neutral" to their advantage? How might capacity be adjusted? Which new routes could be added?

Well, I am not mistaken, with the DL/AF/KL JV, DL has lower costs so they'd take some of the smaller markets like PIT and PHL to CDG (making it viable because it was more expensive on AF) while AF would make up for the multiple 767s by placing A380s (with lower costs just due to the plane, overriding the DL labor cost advantage) on routes like CDG-JFK. (I know one or both PHL/PIT-CDG may have been axed, but my logic still stands)

I could be completely wrong but I think that's how the JV is currently working, staying metal neutral (fewer A380s vs more 767s, among other aircraft) while dipping into the best of both worlds (low seat costs on A380s and lower costs in general with DL.)

Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm sure this JV would be set up similarly

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: LHRFlyer
Posted 2012-12-12 15:01:02 and read 10428 times.

Quoting VS11 (Reply 157):
also about VS needing to be turned around...they have been spending 100m (not sure pounds or dollars) on new products and planes, which is probably the cause of the current year losses..VS is not BMI, they don't need a savior....

The £80m loss was an operating loss. Capital expenditure does not get charged to the profit and loss account - it is depreciated over its useful economic life.

There's no question that Virgin needs this deal. Unless Richard Branson was prepared to bankroll the airline, it's questionable it could survive on its own in the long term whilst the rest of the industry moves to deeper co-operation through partnerships and frequent travellers choose airlines on the basis of alliance membership.

Also remember that the AA and BA joint-venture is still in its infancy and there's someway for the joint venture to develop with regard to corporate contracts and developing new routes.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: VS11
Posted 2012-12-12 15:47:40 and read 10303 times.

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 164):
The £80m loss was an operating loss. Capital expenditure does not get charged to the profit and loss account - it is depreciated over its useful economic life.

There's no question that Virgin needs this deal. Unless Richard Branson was prepared to bankroll the airline, it's questionable it could survive on its own in the long term whilst the rest of the industry moves to deeper co-operation through partnerships and frequent travellers choose airlines on the basis of alliance membership.

Also remember that the AA and BA joint-venture is still in its infancy and there's someway for the joint venture to develop with regard to corporate contracts and developing new routes.

Well, even if the loss is operating, I don't think it is so dire as everyone makes it out. Shocking as it may sound, I wouldn't be surprised if the loss is staged to "help" SQ divest at the "right" price. Yes, I think the deal works for both sides but I just don't think that not doing the deal would have been the end of VS. People here were writing VS off when LH took possession of the "crown jewel" BMI too...

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: ocracoke
Posted 2012-12-12 20:18:05 and read 9969 times.

Since the LHR slots that DL uses are all from AF/KL, and one of the reasons that AF/KL even gave LHR slots to DL in the first place was to get DL to form a joint venture with those two, how will this JV with VS actually work? I understand how they can split the profits/costs from the VS side, but the profits/costs from the DL side are already promised/spoken for. Will AF/KL

1) demand their slots back, since they are cut out of this new JV?
2) permit the DL/VS jv to proceed....for the time being, with a wait and see attitude?
3) demand that the current DL/AF/KL jv continue, including the LHR flights, which means that AF/DL will still get their cut on the LHR routes?

If number 3, that will be an accounting nightmare. VS gets 50%, DL gets 25%, and AF/KL get 25%. Even though AF/KL are not included in this new jv, but their slots are being used in it, so they still get their cut. ???

DL can't very will kick AF/KL out of the old jv, since DL doesn't even own any slots at LHR. (Well, maybe temporarily the two they got from AA/BA...BOS/DFW(ATL)).

Confusing.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-12-12 20:23:42 and read 9961 times.

Quoting ocracoke (Reply 166):
1) demand their slots back, since they are cut out of this new JV?
2) permit the DL/VS jv to proceed....for the time being, with a wait and see attitude?
3) demand that the current DL/AF/KL jv continue, including the LHR flights, which means that AF/DL will still get their cut on the LHR routes?

Ok....explain this to me......DL is using the two slots they got from AF/KL to fly out of LHR, BUT do the ROUTES (LHR-JFK) belong to AF/KL or is DL allowed to use the slots however they want, without them having anything to do with the JV?

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: ocracoke
Posted 2012-12-12 20:33:24 and read 9924 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 167):
Ok....explain this to me......DL is using the two slots they got from AF/KL to fly out of LHR, BUT do the ROUTES (LHR-JFK) belong to AF/KL or is DL allowed to use the slots however they want, without them having anything to do with the JV?

I don't know. If I were to guess (dangerous), I'd say that AF/KL have a say-so as to how and where DL were going to use their slots. It was AF that tried LHR-LAX, not DL. AF/KL didn't give DL an extra slot for that. I think all parties to the AF/KL/DL/AZ jv have a say-so as to who flies where, but again, I don't know.

Also, I think all the LHR slots that DL uses (except for the recent 2 from AA/BA) are on loan from KL/AF.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: cv880
Posted 2012-12-12 20:34:20 and read 9948 times.

Quoting VS11 (Reply 157):
.Maybe DL should cut VX some slack, you know, for good measure


VX was started by Fred Reid, an ex-Deltoid. The DOT required VX to sever ties with Reid to get an operating certificate.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-12-12 20:41:52 and read 9942 times.

Quoting cv880 (Reply 169):
Quoting VS11 (Reply 157):
.Maybe DL should cut VX some slack, you know, for good measure



VX was started by Fred Reid, an ex-Deltoid. The DOT required VX to sever ties with Reid to get an operating certificate.

Ex LH, too. While at DL, he was one of Leo Mullin's boys, so you can make of that what you will. Actually, I believe that whoever organized VX, hired Reid away from DL.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: FlyDeltaJets
Posted 2012-12-12 23:11:52 and read 9742 times.

Quoting etops1 (Reply 62):
hope DL cabin crews don't get the shaft with this . They are non union . DL could easily have VA take over their LHR flts with VA crews . DL FA have no scope or protections against stuff like this .
Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 67):
Another union vote is in the works. This news will just add fuel to the fire. Look for IAM to represent the f/a's in the not-too-distant future. The times,they area changin'.

I see this agreement bringing additonal trans-atlantic flights to LHR to enhance connections from there. I don't see what DL crews would have to fear.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: delimit
Posted 2012-12-13 02:30:02 and read 9510 times.

Quoting ocracoke (Reply 168):
I'd say that AF/KL have a say-so as to how and where DL were going to use their slots.

It's a JV. AF/KL have a say in all of the operations covered under the scope of the JV. The slots are besides the point. I mean, that's the whole point of the agreement between the 3 airlines. They plan routing, capacity and who will operate. That's why when a route switches from one airline to the other it doesn't matter.

Delta have said AF/KL supported their effort to acquire their stake in VS. The end goal is probably to roll VS into the existing JV.

Delta and AF/KL's cooperation is long and deep. Thinking AF/KL has somehow been blindsided by this is odd.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: EddieDude
Posted 2012-12-13 09:27:22 and read 9218 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 167):
is DL allowed to use the slots however they want, without them having anything to do with the JV?

This is metal neutral. It really does not matter if DL uses its planes or if AF, KL or AZ use their planes. Any flights operated by any one of those four carriers involving LHR as one end and the U.S., Canada and Mexico on the other end are to be considered joint venture flights. Hence why everyone is curious as to how the DL - AF/KL - AZ joint venture will be amended to carve out North America - United Kingdom flights or to accommodate the interests of both the current joint venture partners and of VS.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-12-13 10:04:56 and read 9149 times.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 173):
Quoting mayor (Reply 167):
is DL allowed to use the slots however they want, without them having anything to do with the JV?

This is metal neutral. It really does not matter if DL uses its planes or if AF, KL or AZ use their planes. Any flights operated by any one of those four carriers involving LHR as one end and the U.S., Canada and Mexico on the other end are to be considered joint venture flights. Hence why everyone is curious as to how the DL - AF/KL - AZ joint venture will be amended to carve out North America - United Kingdom flights or to accommodate the interests of both the current joint venture partners and of VS.

The reason I wondered is that AF/KL & AZ do not fly LHR to the U.S. Since they do not, why would the JV apply to this route? I'm talking of the existing JV, not an amended one or a new one.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: delimit
Posted 2012-12-13 10:48:39 and read 9055 times.

The JV is for all transatlantic flying by all of the partners.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: EddieDude
Posted 2012-12-13 10:50:50 and read 9058 times.

The current DL - AF-KL, AZ Joint Venture applies to all their flights between North America and Europe.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: LJ
Posted 2012-12-13 11:51:17 and read 8998 times.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 176):
The current DL - AF-KL, AZ Joint Venture applies to all their flights between North America and Europe.

and AFAIK India as well....

Will be interesting if the DL-VS joint venture will also include India.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: EddieDude
Posted 2012-12-13 12:09:24 and read 8958 times.

Quoting LJ (Reply 177):
and AFAIK India as well....

Will be interesting if the DL-VS joint venture will also include India.

Good point. Questions: Is DL still flying to India from AMS? Could VS launch more LHR-India flights in cooperation with DL?

The more and more I think about it, it is in the best interest of all the parties involved to make VS part of the existing DL-AF-KL-AZ JV.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: LJ
Posted 2012-12-13 13:25:59 and read 8831 times.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 178):
Good point. Questions: Is DL still flying to India from AMS? Could VS launch more LHR-India flights in cooperation with DL?

Yes, DL operates AMS-BOM. However, I doubt VS will increase India flying as LHR - India is already well served and probably not as lucrative as other routes.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: NYCAdvantage
Posted 2012-12-13 14:26:02 and read 8730 times.

One question I have could DL and VS have another JV from LHR-NRT? Since VS code share with ANA they could grow there too I'm shure DL can find some good slots for VS to use.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: LX138
Posted 2012-12-14 03:52:02 and read 8370 times.

Whilst it's good that VS are pursuing expansion opportunities, together with the stake sale, out of all carriers I get nervous when I hear it's DL. I'm more nervous when I hear they get seats on the board at VS. I think i'll be happy if the carriers remain very separate in identity and operationally but the second DL get their dirty hands on the VS marketing, strategy and vision then I suspect it could be a downhill spiral.

Whilst DL have been possibly the most backward carrrier historically when it comes to innovation, trailblazing and leading, I do commend their recent efforts to try and improve themselves on transatlantic routes and it all helps with competition, which is healthy.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2012-12-14 05:34:20 and read 8277 times.

Quoting etops1 (Reply 62):
I hope DL cabin crews don't get the shaft with this . They are non union . DL could easily have VA take over their LHR flts with VA crews

Why would Delta want to do this since all expenses and profits are split evenly?What would they gain?

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-12-14 07:55:56 and read 8128 times.

Quoting LX138 (Reply 181):
Whilst it's good that VS are pursuing expansion opportunities, together with the stake sale, out of all carriers I get nervous when I hear it's DL. I'm more nervous when I hear they get seats on the board at VS. I think i'll be happy if the carriers remain very separate in identity and operationally but the second DL get their dirty hands on the VS marketing, strategy and vision then I suspect it could be a downhill spiral.

And, WHAT would you be basing this on?

Quoting LX138 (Reply 181):
Whilst DL have been possibly the most backward carrrier historically when it comes to innovation, trailblazing and leading, I do commend their recent efforts to try and improve themselves on transatlantic routes and it all helps with competition, which is healthy.

Most of us would just call this conservative. Again, what are you basing this assertion, on? Think about this.....when I hired on, DL was the smallest of the majors, almost a regional carrier (old definition). Now, they're second in the world? They didn't get that way by buying flashy new planes when everyone else was, when they weren't needed. However, they HAVE been more innovative in the last 10 years than I've ever seen them. I would say that the refinery deal is trailblazing or innovative. Also, the deal to lease the 88 717s from WN and get them to pay for the changes in the a/c before delivery is the same. Neither of these things are directly connected to the transatlantic operation.



Either your observations are based on what you see on A.net, mostly from DL bashing threads, or from information gotten from afar, which was probably spurious to begin with. In either case, I would bet that most of what you got was wrong or misinformed.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2012-12-14 08:09:50 and read 8097 times.

Quoting LX138 (Reply 181):
Whilst it's good that VS are pursuing expansion opportunities, together with the stake sale, out of all carriers I get nervous when I hear it's DL. I'm more nervous when I hear they get seats on the board at VS. I think i'll be happy if the carriers remain very separate in identity and operationally but the second DL get their dirty hands on the VS marketing, strategy and vision then I suspect it could be a downhill spiral.

Whilst DL have been possibly the most backward carrrier historically when it comes to innovation, trailblazing and leading, I do commend their recent efforts to try and improve themselves on transatlantic routes and it all helps with competition, which is healthy.

You clearly have an ancient idea of what Delta is about. In fact, most Americans would argue precisely the opposite of what you have here. Of the U.S. legacy carriers, Delta has been by far the most innovative and forward thinking over the past several years. From a corporate strategy, financial and product point of view, Delta is certainly the leading carrier in North America at the moment.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-12-14 08:13:12 and read 8085 times.

I especially have no idea where THIS statement comes from:

Quoting LX138 (Reply 181):
but the second DL get their dirty hands on the VS marketing, strategy and vision then I suspect it could be a downhill spiral.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2012-12-14 08:34:46 and read 8037 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 185):
I especially have no idea where THIS statement comes from:

I guess if his view is based on the Delta of the 1990s, I could understand. But certainly no the Richard Anderson-led, post-merger Delta. Quite the opposite.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: brilondon
Posted 2012-12-14 09:04:26 and read 7974 times.

Quoting BD338 (Reply 109):
Connections from LHR - are limited to UK destinations only. Per the fact sheet on the DL Newsroom site. Connections to european destinations are handled via AMS and CDG. This deal is all about DL access to LHR and then feeding to/from their US network. Be interesting to see how integrated they become. As a Y passenger with lots of Skymiles, I will be able to take advantage of the better (IMHO) Y product on VS and VA across both oceans on both sides of the USA

I am not against flying through LHR. I know I am in the minority here but when I do fly on business, I don't really have a preference of whom I fly. If I need to get somewhere, I just get there. To me, the airlines are not interested in my business or they would fly the polar route from HNL to LHR. I use to like to fly with AA mainly because they use to be an airline that seemed to be able to get me from HNL- England the fastest without having to fly through NYC. I could connect through DFW quite nicely and on the way back, I would book into the Hyatt and spend the night. Awake refreshed and continue on home.

Now I use DL more because I can fly back through DTW and spend a couple of days with my family in YXU. Although if again I had my way, I would love to be able to connect once and get back home with minimal connection time.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2012-12-14 09:25:55 and read 7930 times.

Quoting LX138 (Reply 181):
I get nervous when I hear it's DL. I'm more nervous when I hear they get seats on the board at VS. I think i'll be happy if the carriers remain very separate in identity and operationally but the second DL get their dirty hands on the VS marketing, strategy and vision then I suspect it could be a downhill spiral.

Nervous? Why? Dirty hands? PLEASE, explain THAT one!

Quoting LX138 (Reply 181):
Whilst DL have been possibly the most backward carrrier historically when it comes to innovation, trailblazing and leading

Where in creation did you dig THAT up from? FYI...DL has their own refinery and were the first with fleet-wide WiFi. What other carrier makes their own JetA? LOL (Gulf carriers excepted:D)

You've thrown a LOT of mud, how about some rationality?

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-12-14 09:50:46 and read 7864 times.

Quoting LX138 (Reply 181):
Whilst DL have been possibly the most backward carrrier historically when it comes to innovation, trailblazing and leading

Have you been under a rock the past 4 years? They made some mistakes in the past, but I cannot in the life of me get what you're talking about. Even DL critics have been mostly positive to the direction DL is going. Can't deny I have a DL bias, but I would love you see how you back this up

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: tommy767
Posted 2012-12-14 11:06:05 and read 7778 times.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 122):
I'm not so sure that would work too well at JFK and EWR as DL really doesn't have such an extensive domestic network out of those (though they do have more out of JFK than EWR).

I think DL realizes that they want to be top dog in NYC and in order to capitalize on the catchement area, they need to include some routes out of EWR. EWR-AMS was always solid for NW and obviously a DL staple with the 763. The recent press release to have EWR-CDG with a newly reconfigured 767 speaks volumes as to how they want to protect the former AF route in a JV environment. It wouldn't surprise me that while DL might have a moderate spoke presence at EWR, they want to tap into the JV markets that they can effectively compete again UA in. Hence why I do believe it's only a matter of time before DL starts operating EWR-LHR and seasonal EWR-FCO.

Topic: DL Acquiring 49% In VS
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-12-17 08:16:10 and read 5541 times.

The most likely new route is SEA-LHR. I was surprised to see that on AS.com you cannot buy a London ticket via code share. I think DTW gets 2x. I think EWR goes away. I think they have to consider ending SFO, particularly if VX continues to falter.


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/