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Topic: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: 76er
Posted 2012-12-17 05:18:36 and read 23014 times.

Funny FlightGlobal hasn't picked up on this one, but last week dutch newspaper De Telegraaf reported KL is to become an AF subsidiary instead of the present situation where AF an KL are both (more or less) equivalent companies in the AF/KL Group.

Of course, this was to be expected in the long run, but is has some unions up north worried.

Sorry, no link. The article was published in the paper version last friday with a follow up on saturday.

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: PH-BFA
Posted 2012-12-17 05:43:36 and read 22741 times.

Quoting 76er (Thread starter):
dutch newspaper De Telegraaf

'nuff said..

Quoting 76er (Thread starter):
Funny FlightGlobal hasn't picked up on this one,

Because FlightGlobal sticks to facts instead of 'telegraaf' rumours.

Quoting 76er (Thread starter):
to become an AF subsidiary instead of the present situation where AF an KL are both (more or less) equivalent companies in the AF/KL Group.

Not true. Some double staff functions are to be integrated (simply put: why have two managers for the same function, if you can have one), however KL is not becoming an AF subsidiary like HV is to KL.

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: 76er
Posted 2012-12-17 06:14:30 and read 22322 times.

Although I generally agree with you on this newspaper, when it comes to business topics they are usually very well informed. Like it or not, but KL is about to become another Air Inter, UTA, CityJet a.s.o., where Paris will be calling 100% of the shots.

[Edited 2012-12-17 06:15:15]

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: SKAirbus
Posted 2012-12-17 06:29:09 and read 22096 times.

If it is true then it scuppers the rumours of AF/KL splitting up that were going around!

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: KL911
Posted 2012-12-17 07:05:50 and read 21690 times.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 4):
If it is true then it scuppers the rumours of AF/KL splitting up that were going around!

That would be better for KLM. KLM has always been the better performing one in the group.

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: LifelinerOne
Posted 2012-12-17 07:06:59 and read 21668 times.

There is a talk about a new structure for the AF-KLM group, but that has been going on for years. So far I know, these are still the plans;

AF-KLM will remain as is. Both separate companies, under one holding. There will, however be, less subsidiaries;

* One cargo airline (Martinair is named)
* One regional carrier (CityJet), Air France recently started the integration for it's regional outlets like Régional. KLM Cityhopper is expected to join as last.
* One LCC (Transavia NL & France)

These plans are moving at a a very slow pace due to all the union issues involved. So are the unions at the regionals very concerned about the employee benefits under the CityJet umbrella. However, AF-KLM is going to push this issue to lower it's cost structure in the upcoming years. We are seeing the same at other European airlines (like Iberia and Lufthansa), all are looking at new vehicles to operate with lower costs.

The one big issue for the group is how to react when Alitalia wants to join. There are enough challenges integrating the AF-KLM branches at this moment, let a lone entering a third party.

The article of De Telegraaf was full of speculation due to the fact that the KLM CEO Peter Hartman is due to leave the airline next year and is to be replaced by former Minister of Transport Camiel Eurlings.

Cheers!   

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2012-12-17 07:20:27 and read 21495 times.

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 6):
The one big issue for the group is how to react when Alitalia wants to join.

Shut the doors, close the windows, change the mail adresses, phone numbers and pretend you don''t speak the language....  

KLM has been through that before, with AZ and it failed. They simply chose the rwrong partners, AF and AZ should have teamed up with IB and BA would have been the perfect match for KL.

How can an efficiently run carrier, based in a country where they understand how to run a business, team up with an airline that is based in a state run economy ruled by an old boys network of L'ecole nationale?

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-12-17 08:40:13 and read 19770 times.

In my (probably uninformed) opinion, I think AF should become the subsidiary... isn't KL the one making money? (or was?)

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: AOMlover
Posted 2012-12-17 09:11:33 and read 19104 times.

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 6):
One regional carrier (CityJet)

Are you sure it will be named Cityjet ? AF is in the process of integrating its regional subsidiaries (Brit Air, Régional CAE and Airlinair) but the final name will only be unveiled at the beginning of 2013. Cityjet would make much sense though.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 7):
team up with an airline that is based in a state run economy ruled by an old boys network of L'ecole nationale?

Wow, what a balanced opinion ! I'm 100% open to criticism towards France, however you're going a bit too far, aren't you ? It's not like there are no successful international companies based in France...Accor, Safran, Total, LVMH, Chanel, SG, Hermès, Alstom, AXA, Essilor, Danone, EDF, L'Oréal, Michelin, Pernot Ricard, Gemalto to name a few...so much for a state-run economy !

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: kjellverschuren
Posted 2012-12-17 09:34:15 and read 18524 times.

Quoting AOMlover (Reply 9):

I think he was talking about Italy?

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: AmricanShamrok
Posted 2012-12-17 09:41:35 and read 18396 times.

Quoting AOMlover (Reply 9):

Would the combined AF regional carrier still be based in Dublin (as CityJet currently is)?

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: AOMlover
Posted 2012-12-17 09:51:59 and read 18184 times.

Quoting kjellverschuren (Reply 10):
think he was talking about Italy?

In that case he'd be speaking of "la Scuola Nazionale"  

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: skiaplg
Posted 2012-12-17 10:05:19 and read 17889 times.

Quoting kjellverschuren (Reply 10):
Quoting kjellverschuren (Reply 10):
I think he was talking about Italy?

I don't think he was... he did mention l'école nationale, which isn't italian.

edit: drat! someone got in before me!

[Edited 2012-12-17 10:05:53]

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: Polot
Posted 2012-12-17 10:15:45 and read 17682 times.

While he wasn't clear, I am pretty sure PanHAM was talking about KL (the Netherlands) vs AF (France).

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2012-12-17 10:25:26 and read 17433 times.

Quoting Polot (Reply 14):
While he wasn't clear, I am pretty sure PanHAM was talking about KL (the Netherlands) vs AF (France).

confirmed.

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: PSA727LAX
Posted 2012-12-17 10:57:58 and read 16788 times.

Is KLM going along with this willingly? I am surprised they aren't pushin to be the lead dawg in this train. If AF/KL are co-equals then it would stand that they would rather split off and go it alone again. I find it hard to believe that KL is willingly agreein to this unless they have already received verification in writing from AF that they will continue to rule their own fortunes; that this is striclty a way to clean up certian duplicative areas.

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: 76er
Posted 2012-12-17 11:39:55 and read 16036 times.

The thing is that this wasn't a merger, but a takeover, although the dutch like to think otherwise. There were some guarantees about keeping the KL brand and the AMS hub, but with an expiration date.

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: royaldutchgirl
Posted 2012-12-17 11:58:10 and read 15655 times.

It was expected, but wow, it is bad news... The end of KLM, Transavia, Martinair and the end of AMS as a hub.
Well done, the Netherlands! Many years ago you sold your aviation. Congratulations!  

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: B747forever
Posted 2012-12-17 12:07:07 and read 15485 times.

Quoting 76er (Reply 16):
There were some guarantees about keeping the KL brand and the AMS hub, but with an expiration date.
Quoting royaldutchgirl (Reply 17):
It was expected, but wow, it is bad news... The end of KLM, Transavia, Martinair and the end of AMS as a hub.
Well done, the Netherlands! Many years ago you sold your aviation. Congratulations!




I really doubt that this will mean the end of KLM/AMS hub. No one in their right mind would close down a well functioning hub. Besides that, there is no way that AF can absorb all that extra traffic if AMS would lose its status as a major hub.

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: nipoel123
Posted 2012-12-17 12:19:34 and read 15243 times.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 18):
I really doubt that this will mean the end of KLM/AMS hub.

Me too. If the two are combining into one big airline, they would have to change their name, at least. AMS full of Air France titled planes, don't think so. Is there any other hub in Europe (or the world for that matter) that has an airline of another country there? Not to my knowledge...

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: B747forever
Posted 2012-12-17 12:24:53 and read 15113 times.

Quoting nipoel123 (Reply 19):
the two are combining into one big airline, they would have to change their name, at least. AMS full of Air France titled planes, don't think so



That would never go well. Why ruin a well know and successful brand?

Quoting nipoel123 (Reply 19):
Is there any other hub in Europe (or the world for that matter) that has an airline of another country there? Not to my knowledge...



Well you got Irish Ryanair with "hubs" all around Europe  

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: blueflyer
Posted 2012-12-17 12:42:28 and read 14766 times.

Quoting 76er (Reply 2):
Paris will be calling 100% of the shots.

The holding company that owns Air France and KLM under the current structure is French. Paris is already calling all the shots, whether you like it or not.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
isn't KL the one making money? (or was?)

KLM is making money, but it would take a team of forensic accountants to determine whether Air France's losses are a true reflection of its performance or the result of fiscal engineering and clever accounting.

The holding company for both carriers is taking advantage of different tax rates and regulations between France and the Netherlands by assigning as much revenue as possible to KLM and as many expenses as possible to Air France, all that because any profit would be taxed higher in France than in the Netherlands.

For example, two years ago, Air France alone bore the loss of fuel hedges gone bad even though the contract covered both carriers.

This practice is neither new nor unique. A recent example is Starbucks that uses its Dutch subsidiary to sell supplies to subsidiaries in other countries in Europe at inflated prices calculated, again, to maximize profits in the Netherlands and minimize them in other countries such as the UK...

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: aloges
Posted 2012-12-17 12:44:35 and read 14730 times.

Quoting nipoel123 (Reply 19):
Is there any other hub in Europe (or the world for that matter) that has an airline of another country there?

There are countless examples, both current and historic. I was going to mention just a few, but got sort of carried away... because this shows just how international a business aviation is. I'll include focus cities because those focuses do include some sizeable operations:

Air Berlin at PMI and VIE
CityJet/Air France Regional at ANR, DUB, LCY and RTM
Easyjet and Ryanair all over the place
Flybe (Nordic) at HEL
Norwegian at ARN, CPH and HEL, among others
Qantas at SIN
United and Delta at NRT

previously:
Lufthansa Italia at MXP
Pan Am at FRA, LHR and HND/NRT

The entire LAN group has done away with the "national carrier" image, but is controlled by the Chileans.
The airlines of the TUI group are a pan-European amalgam.
BA has a small Danish franchise that hubs at BLL.
Air France even operates a mini hub at MIA, with two A320 based there.

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: rwsea
Posted 2012-12-17 13:22:08 and read 14110 times.

I suppose it's the next logical step. Over the past few years we've slowly but surely seen KLM's service degrade further and further. I suppose it will stop when the airline has sunk to the level of AF. Over the past few years we've seen:
- the "April Fools" devaluation of FlyingBlue, which has significantly decreased the value of the program
- the introduction of Economy Comfort in Europe as of this month, which now means that even gold/silver members have to pay an extra fee to sit in the front half of the airplane
- a gradual decrease in catering (sandwiches and snacks getting cheaper in quality, replacement of juice with sugary nectar drinks, etc.)

I suppose it's easier for AF to make cuts in service quality at KLM than it is to fix their own union messes.

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: AOMlover
Posted 2012-12-17 13:54:06 and read 13589 times.

I suppose it's easier to put everything on AF's back rather than admitting that KLM is having its own issues too.

To be fair:
- I have a lot of admiration for KLM, what they achieved over all those decades and their identity which is, in my opinion, relaxed, friendly and professional,
- Schiphol is by a long shot my favorite airport in Europe,
- an airline which still operates pax MD11 desserves our respect in any case.

However:
- Air France is not that bad as some people try to make it look here, I've logged 68 segments on AF that year alone (for 171 segments in total), short, médium and long haul, and I've never had to fill any complaint. I've always received courteous service and 97% of my flights left on time,
- CDG has improved a lot lately, mainly since the consolidation of AF operations in terminals 2E and 2F which are recent, airy and easy to navigate,
- even the on-board service is being improved. AF is bringing back hot meals on some segments (ex: CDG-TUN, 2h15mn Flight that I took last month)

Finally:
- Nothing proves that the degradation of FB was dictated solely by AF. Ex-Fréquence plus members have suffered from this downgrade as much as ex-FD members. Other major FFPs have been severely downgraded lately. Miles and More just had its own version of the infamous "april's fool".
- the decrease in on board catering and the introduction of new ways to generate revenue such as "seat plus" or "economy comfort" are a general trend within major European airlines. How can AF be the only culprit if KL is doing the same cuts as everyone else ?

You make it sound as if KL is always the victim and AF always the hangman. Fact is, there are decision-makers in both companies and AFKL may already be more Integrated than you think,

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: SuperCaravelle
Posted 2012-12-17 14:14:39 and read 13732 times.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 21):
KLM is making money, but it would take a team of forensic accountants to determine whether Air France's losses are a true reflection of its performance or the result of fiscal engineering and clever accounting.

The holding company for both carriers is taking advantage of different tax rates and regulations between France and the Netherlands by assigning as much revenue as possible to KLM and as many expenses as possible to Air France, all that because any profit would be taxed higher in France than in the Netherlands.

For example, two years ago, Air France alone bore the loss of fuel hedges gone bad even though the contract covered both carriers.

This practice is neither new nor unique. A recent example is Starbucks that uses its Dutch subsidiary to sell supplies to subsidiaries in other countries in Europe at inflated prices calculated, again, to maximize profits in the Netherlands and minimize them in other countries such as the UK...

Exactly. It's much more complicated than a big bad airline and a smaller good airline. However, Dutch press is going viral with this story, of course. And AF cannot defend itself because that would not be appreciated in France. Hence, I think it best for them to maintain status quo. Any change will be explained based on perceptions rather than facts, and I don't know if that will be a good thing for AFKL.

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: royaldutchgirl
Posted 2012-12-17 14:35:33 and read 13377 times.

Quoting rwsea (Reply 23):

I suppose it's the next logical step. Over the past few years we've slowly but surely seen KLM's service degrade further and further. I suppose it will stop when the airline has sunk to the level of AF. Over the past few years we've seen:
- the "April Fools" devaluation of FlyingBlue, which has significantly decreased the value of the program
- the introduction of Economy Comfort in Europe as of this month, which now means that even gold/silver members have to pay an extra fee to sit in the front half of the airplane
- a gradual decrease in catering (sandwiches and snacks getting cheaper in quality, replacement of juice with sugary nectar drinks, etc.)

I suppose it's easier for AF to make cuts in service quality at KLM than it is to fix their own union messes.

Yep it seems like that's the next logical step. Sadly.

As a dutch person, of course I would be sad to see good old KLM disappear or turn into a small regional airline. Maybe AF will keep the KLM Cityhopper brand? Perhaps the newer wide bodies will then go to AF and the 737s will go to Transavia / Transavia France (if they survive, hehe). And then all that's left at AMS are the Embraer 190s and Fokker 70s flying for KLM Cityhopper. I would surely miss all the bright blue planes! But it seems KLMs time has come now.

Hopefully someone will start up a new dutch airline, to maintain all the fantastic European and intercontinental flights from AMS. But that's wishful thinking I'm affraid   Or is it possible? I hope AMS will find a solution anyways! They shouldn't let AF/KLM destroy AMS as a hub.

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: B747forever
Posted 2012-12-17 14:42:40 and read 13498 times.

Quoting royaldutchgirl (Reply 26):
Hopefully someone will start up a new dutch airline, to maintain all the fantastic European and intercontinental flights from AMS. But that's wishful thinking I'm affraid Or is it possible? I hope AMS will find a solution anyways! They shouldn't let AF/KLM destroy AMS as a hub.



Do you really believe that KLM will be dismantled? That would only be sheer stupidity as the AFKL group would lose massive amounts of traffic.

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: SuperCaravelle
Posted 2012-12-17 14:47:20 and read 13440 times.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 27):
Do you really believe that KLM will be dismantled? That would only be sheer stupidity as the AFKL group would lose massive amounts of traffic.

If KLM were to go, AF would have to change it's colors and name as well, for patriotic reasons (Dutch citizens and press won't accept it). Throwing away two strong brand names would be very stupid and I don't think it will happen unless strictly necessary.

I can see a merger of CityJet and KLM Cityhopper, wouldn't be surprised if it gets a generic "Cityhopper" name, the perfect compromise.

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: KL838
Posted 2012-12-17 15:13:38 and read 12992 times.

I don't they they will be a subsidiary under Air France, but rather stay as how they are under the AirFrance-KLM Group, i just don't see much advantage for that, and even if it does end up being a subsidiary of AirFrance it is suicide to kill such a well established brand, essentially shooting themselves in the foot. I would be guessing this is just to cut costs behind the curtain, while visually to the consumer they will still be "separate".

As for everyone saying KLM is becoming worse, I tend to disagree, and they have been improving quite nicely with economy service that is much substantial then other airlines with a hot towel service etc. The introduction of economy comfort is a plus for European and international flights, giving the consumer more options, and the new world business class seat is on the way, and the new cutlery and plates in business is a plus. Having recently flown in world business class, if there was a better seat and maybe a bit more toiletries in the Viktor & Rolf bag, essentially KLM has quite a competitive product.

Flying Blue, is now something that needs work, the entire system is quite buggy and of course not that rewarding. Tried redeeming miles for a business class seat next year and it listed business as premium economy, but when the ticket was confirmed it was "business class", which i figured out as when i called flying blue they confirmed there were business seats available.

AirFrance-KLM can be a juggernaut in Europe, with the need of a stronger hardcore product across all classes that is consistent fleet wide, the softcore product is a lot better than the competitors I think, but AirFrance can milk all the glamour that is often associated with France, and a lot of people were quite disappointed when it isn't as glamorous on board.

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: AOMlover
Posted 2012-12-17 15:18:52 and read 12909 times.

Come on people, I understand your concern but why are you being so pessimistic ? We've been hearing this "KLM is going to be eaten by AF and AMS will be dismantled or flooded with barcode-tailed aircraft" song since the merger was first announced more than 8 years ago...so far none of that happened and the two airlines have had a balanced growth. And now this whole psychodrama starts again due to an article in a single newspaper.

You should have more confidence in KLM and in its value as an organization and as a brand. Why would AFKL tear such an asset down ? LH has managed to keep Swiss and Austrian as separate entities, so what couldn't AFKL suceed in doing the same ?

It's true that AF is lagging behind KLM when it comes to cost-efficiency and financial performance, but they're getting their act together and they're heading in the right direction now. They're going through a painful restructuration plan which is being implemented with no major social trouble (something that would've been unthinkable of a few years ago ). They are finally cleaning the mess in their regional subsidiaries. They are taking more business-oriented decisions in different fields of activities, including maintenance. Lately AF has been paying the price for its lack of reforms, but things are changing.

They have no choice but to succeed.

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: TexL1649
Posted 2012-12-17 15:39:28 and read 12550 times.

They'll have to keep the KL plane washing facilities. AF doesn't even own any, do they?

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: aloges
Posted 2012-12-17 15:51:53 and read 12392 times.

Quoting AOMlover (Reply 30):
Come on people, I understand your concern but why are you being so pessimistic ? We've been hearing this "KLM is going to be eaten by AF and AMS will be dismantled or flooded with barcode-tailed aircraft" song since the merger was first announced more than 8 years ago...so far none of that happened and the two airlines have had a balanced growth. And now this whole psychodrama starts again due to an article in a single newspaper.

It's because AF represents the big, bad French bogeyman as much as LH represents the big, bad German bogeyman. You can't have a rational discussion with the "They're coming for our beloved something-or-other!" crowd, no matter what you're supposedly coming for this week. Facts don't matter when someone's misty-eyed nationalism is concerned.

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: BasilFawlty
Posted 2012-12-17 16:01:40 and read 12308 times.

I'm probably the only Dutch person who doesn't care if the KLM brand would disappear?     

I have absolutely no sympathy for KLM at all because of their attitude towards local pax. It's fine that you want to play the big transit carrier and fly everyone via AMS, but that does not mean that the local pax should pay for that policy. If I depart from neighbouring countries prices are much lower then from AMS, which is utterly stupid in my view.

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: L0VE2FLY
Posted 2012-12-17 19:03:18 and read 10363 times.

Hope this is just a rumor, it'll be a sad day to see the world's oldest airline go. I read on this forum several times that KLM can't be fully absorbed by Air France due to bilaterals with other countries.

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: SamuP
Posted 2012-12-17 19:15:02 and read 10276 times.

I truly, and very honestly have to say the day KL as an airline or a brand disappears it will probably be the end of my love for aviation. I still remember the day when I was four and my dad came back home with a KLM 747-200 model for me. That was the moment I fell in love with this industry. It was hard enough to see KL tie up with AF, if the news are confirmed, I don't think I'll be able to swallow it.

I take the chance to send my best and warmest regards to all the wonderful KLM crews I've had the opportunity to meet over the years!

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: blueflyer
Posted 2012-12-17 22:53:29 and read 8584 times.

I think there is a lot of jumping to conclusions.

Just because the Air France - KLM holding company, the current parent of both carriers, disappears and KLM becomes a subsidiary of Air France instead doesn't mean that the KLM brand and operations will disappear.

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: MauriceB
Posted 2012-12-17 23:55:15 and read 8009 times.

First of all, KLM denies all these accusations. The thing is that KLM just got way more efficient in the past couple of years by replacing its aging fleet of F50's, MD-11's, 737classics, but even more important: lowering the operational costs by millions.
When the merger started it was a mess... to many people on the same jobs, mainly in the higher segment, but that is changing quickly. KLM is a strong brand within the group and will continue to do so for many more years to come.

These stories about Camiel Eurlings (ex minister) becomming the next CEO are also false. Hartman will stay untill atleast 2014 and after that the board of directors will assign a new director.

Quoting royaldutchgirl (Reply 26):
As a dutch person, of course I would be sad to see good old KLM disappear or turn into a small regional airline. Maybe AF will keep the KLM Cityhopper brand? Perhaps the newer wide bodies will then go to AF and the 737s will go to Transavia / Transavia France (if they survive, hehe). And then all that's left at AMS are the Embraer 190s and Fokker 70s flying for KLM Cityhopper. I would surely miss all the bright blue planes! But it seems KLMs time has come now.

Not really, losing AMS as a longhaul transfer hub would be a disaster for the AF group. The Synergy with CDG is becomming better everyday and once KLM sorts out its mess with the Schiphol board of directors, the airport and KLM will be able to make an even stronger together against airports like Madrid, London and Dusseldorf etc.

Also do not forget that KLM is an important partner for airlines like Delta, Czech, China southern etc, and im sure they want KLM to maintain its strong position, and will not just allow the brand to dissapear.

Without a merger KLM would have never survived, and everyone claiming that they should have teamed up with BA.. well they didn´t, but AF took a shot and really wen´t for it. I´m sure both are able to become even stronger, and that in 10 years KLM will still be around.

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: anstar
Posted 2012-12-18 00:30:45 and read 7621 times.

Quoting 76er (Reply 2):
Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 28):
If KLM were to go, AF would have to change it's colors and name as well, for patriotic reasons (Dutch citizens and press won't accept it). Throwing away two strong brand names would be very stupid and I don't think it will happen unless strictly necessary.

I can see a merger of CityJet and KLM Cityhopper, wouldn't be surprised if it gets a generic "Cityhopper" name, the perfect compromise.

This makes more sense...

There is a place for AF and a place for KL.... however why on earth do we still have all the regional carriers.... just create 1 LCC (Transavia) and 1 regional carrier for the group... Ie City Hopper/Regional or City Jet and be done with it...

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 33):
I have absolutely no sympathy for KLM at all because of their attitude towards local pax. It's fine that you want to play the big transit carrier and fly everyone via AMS, but that does not mean that the local pax should pay for that policy. If I depart from neighbouring countries prices are much lower then from AMS, which is utterly stupid in my view.

Its the same for any HUB.... it is almost always cheaper to fly through a hub then to fly direct from a home hub.

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: CARST
Posted 2012-12-18 01:09:45 and read 7201 times.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 33):
I have absolutely no sympathy for KLM at all because of their attitude towards local pax. It's fine that you want to play the big transit carrier and fly everyone via AMS, but that does not mean that the local pax should pay for that policy. If I depart from neighbouring countries prices are much lower then from AMS, which is utterly stupid in my view.
Quoting anstar (Reply 38):
Its the same for any HUB.... it is almost always cheaper to fly through a hub then to fly direct from a home hub.

And there is a reason for it, I am always complaining about LH and AB, too. They are more expensive nearly all the time when flying long-haul compared to AF, KL, BA, IB, AZ and so on.

But there is a reason for it. Direct flights (and to some degree flights on the home-country airlines) is always more expensive than connecting through another, foreign hub. People are willing to pay a premium to fly direct and a lot of them are willing to pay a premium, too, for flying on a carrier from their home-country.

We a.nutters not booking package holidays, but searching for airfares for hours and trying to get on specific flights etc. are just not representing the majority of people out there...

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: 76er
Posted 2012-12-18 01:21:58 and read 7046 times.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 36):
in 10 years KLM will still be around

Agreed.

In the foreseeable future the brandname KL will continue to exist, if only because of bilateral and sentimental reasons. That doesn't have anyone worried in the low coutries just yet. The issue is mainly the possibility of a slow but deliberate shift of capacity to the south. There are no future guarantees on the current balance in capacity between AF and KL.

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: joost
Posted 2012-12-18 01:37:16 and read 6917 times.

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 37):
Without a merger KLM would have never survived, and everyone claiming that they should have teamed up with BA.. well they didn´t, but AF took a shot and really wen´t for it. I´m sure both are able to become even stronger, and that in 10 years KLM will still be around.
Quoting blueflyer (Reply 36):
I think there is a lot of jumping to conclusions.

Right so. Ever since the takeover / merger in 2004, people all over the country were predicting doom. KLM would disappear rapidly, the French would control everything and AMS would be left with nothing more than a handful regional flights.

However, despite the change of ownership, despite a long-lasting economic crisis and despite fierce competition from LCCs, KLM has never seen so much growth as since the AF takeover.

KLM has never had such a big long-haul fleet (now 64 ex cargo) and has never operated so many daily intercontinental flights. Far more intercontinental destinations have been added since 2004 (YYC, DFW, PTY, GIG, EZE, KGL, EBB, LUN, HRE, XMN, CTU, HGH, DPS, FUK, LAD) than cancelled (CCS, KAN, ABV, SSG-DLA (triangle flight), MIA (restarted and ceased again) ).

KLM has been able to do major investments (fleet, new full-flat business class from June 2013) ever since it's part of AF-KL and has been able to make decisions separate of AF (like buying many 737NGs).

If the AF strategy was to slowly kill KLM, they wouldn't have acquired additional A330s to replace the MD-11s: it was a great opportunity to shrink KLM - but they chose to grow instead. Apparently because it contributes to the profit line.

As a Dutchman, I care about employment and economic prosperity of my country. I care about the thousands of people who work at and around AMS.

But I don't mind if the man or woman who puts his signature on the order for 25 787s was born in Paris or Amsterdam.

Compared to the bankruptcies and following economic effects around BRU, ZRH, MXP or BUD, and looking at the stagnation of intercontinental connections at CPH or DUB, or the millions of Euro's poured into AZ, OA or LO, I'm not too unhappy about the AF-KL situation.

Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 28):
I can see a merger of CityJet and KLM Cityhopper, wouldn't be surprised if it gets a generic "Cityhopper" name, the perfect compromise.

I'd be very surprised. The sole reason for regional airlines is to be able to have separate contracts. The regional airline should integrate perfectly with the long-haul network.

KLM is now renegotiating all contracts and I guess the (in the press) suggested 'KLM Europe' (F70, E90, 737) and 'KLM Intercontinental' set-up is more likely.



[Edited 2012-12-18 02:06:48]

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: LifelinerOne
Posted 2012-12-18 02:42:23 and read 6256 times.

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 37):
These stories about Camiel Eurlings (ex minister) becomming the next CEO are also false. Hartman will stay untill atleast 2014 and after that the board of directors will assign a new director.


Hartman is scheduled for pension next year, and I have it from good sources that Eurlings is the confirmed man for the job.

Quoting joost (Reply 41):
If the AF strategy was to slowly kill KLM, they wouldn't have acquired additional A330s to replace the MD-11s: it was a great opportunity to shrink KLM - but they chose to grow instead. Apparently because it contributes to the profit line.

As a Dutchman, I care about employment and economic prosperity of my country. I care about the thousands of people who work at and around AMS.


Well said!

Quoting joost (Reply 41):
Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 28):
I can see a merger of CityJet and KLM Cityhopper, wouldn't be surprised if it gets a generic "Cityhopper" name, the perfect compromise.

I'd be very surprised. The sole reason for regional airlines is to be able to have separate contracts. The regional airline should integrate perfectly with the long-haul network.

KLM is now renegotiating all contracts and I guess the (in the press) suggested 'KLM Europe' (F70, E90, 737) and 'KLM Intercontinental' set-up is more likely.


Well, the CityJet-brand would only be the vehicle for ensuring a lower cost structure. Schedule-wise, there won't be much change. But, marketing is also not behind the plans as they say the KLM Cityhopper brand is too strong to be replaced by CityJet. Time will tell, but one thing is clear, KLM is moving in the same direction as Lufthansa with the plans of creating a new entity for lower costs on regional (European) flights.

Cheers!   

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: AF185
Posted 2012-12-18 02:44:26 and read 6249 times.

Quoting AOMlover (Reply 30):

I couldn't agree more with your comments in this thread!

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: royaldutchgirl
Posted 2012-12-18 05:05:55 and read 4987 times.

Quoting aloges (Reply 32):
It's because AF represents the big, bad French bogeyman as much as LH represents the big, bad German bogeyman. You can't have a rational discussion with the "They're coming for our beloved something-or-other!" crowd, no matter what you're supposedly coming for this week. Facts don't matter when someone's misty-eyed nationalism is concerned.

Well yes, you've got a point there, but where there's smoke, there's fire in many cases. Besides, most human beings aren't always rational. That doesn't mean you're, per definition, ultra nationalistic. But anyways, it's easy for you to say. You're from a huge country, Germany. Your national airline will always be around and is able to take over airlines from your neighbouring countries such as Swiss, Austrian, Brussels Airlines. So a LH-loving german doesn't have to worry about the excistence of LH.

As a girl from a small nation, it is not always a comforting feeling when companies from huge nations take over your companies, there's a big risk that jobs will be lost, and yes the possible loss of identity plays a role too. This doesn't mean I'm misty-eyed nationalistic. That would be hilarious, in aviation you cannot be so nationalistic, aviation is about travelling, you need eachother. Besides, it is not just about my own national airline, I was also very sad when Belgium's SABENA was destroyed, and more recently the loss of good old Hungarian MALEV. But like it or not, as long as there's human beings, there will be sentimental feelings.

[Edited 2012-12-18 05:08:01]

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: AirGabon
Posted 2012-12-18 05:17:03 and read 4854 times.

Quoting joost (Reply 41):
KLM has never had such a big long-haul fleet (now 64 ex cargo) and has never operated so many daily intercontinental flights. Far more intercontinental destinations have been added since 2004 (YYC, DFW, PTY, GIG, EZE, KGL, EBB, LUN, HRE, XMN, CTU, HGH, DPS, FUK, LAD) than cancelled (CCS, KAN, ABV, SSG-DLA (triangle flight), MIA (restarted and ceased again) ).
Quoting joost (Reply 41):
Compared to the bankruptcies and following economic effects around BRU, ZRH, MXP or BUD, and looking at the stagnation of intercontinental connections at CPH or DUB, or the millions of Euro's poured into AZ, OA or LO, I'm not too unhappy about the AF-KL situation.

You are 100% right, I totally agree.

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2012-12-18 06:51:12 and read 4500 times.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 33):
I depart from neighbouring countries prices are much lower then from AMS, which is utterly stupid in my view.

I would say that the airines that are flyingpax from neighboring countries a a lower fare are the utterly stupid ones. The pupose of any airline is to make a profit, not to carry the most passengers

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: aloges
Posted 2012-12-18 07:06:28 and read 4435 times.

Quoting royaldutchgirl (Reply 44):
Your national airline will always be around

People said the same about Pan Am and TWA...

Quoting royaldutchgirl (Reply 44):
and is able to take over airlines from your neighbouring countries such as Swiss, Austrian, Brussels Airlines.

...and how many of those airline brands have disappeared?   BMI has gone the way of the dodo, but you might be correct if you opined that they weren't going anywhere else anyway.

Quoting royaldutchgirl (Reply 44):
I was also very sad when Belgium's SABENA was destroyed, and more recently the loss of good old Hungarian MALEV.

How exactly do those bankruptcies make you fear for KLM? Sabena was, essentially, a casualty of 9/11 and Swissair's hubris.
Malév had nothing like the home market that KLM has, they had few (if any) intercontinental routes, AMS is a much stronger hub than BUD, there is no competitor slaughtering KLM at its home, the KLM brand is infinitly stronger than Malév and last, but certainly not least: KLM is several times the size of Malév in every respect. They could cut several Malévs from their operations if they had to... but they don't.

The KLM brand is not going away anytime soon.

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: joost
Posted 2012-12-18 08:19:14 and read 4280 times.

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 42):
Well, the CityJet-brand would only be the vehicle for ensuring a lower cost structure. Schedule-wise, there won't be much change. But, marketing is also not behind the plans as they say the KLM Cityhopper brand is too strong to be replaced by CityJet.

I believe the idea is already gone. Especially, as AF is actively trying to sell loss-making CityJet. IMO, the whole idea was only launched in order to put pressure on the unions while negotiating wages and conditions.

For a regional airline whose prime purpose is to feed the long-haul network, I don't believe a separate company is the best way to go. And I don't believe AF/KL is pursuing it either.

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 42):
Time will tell, but one thing is clear, KLM is moving in the same direction as Lufthansa with the plans of creating a new entity for lower costs on regional (European) flights.

Lufthansa is doing something completely different.

- They are transferring all non-hub flights (DUS, HAM, TXL, STR) to a separate entity (4U). Quite a large number of these flights were already operated by independent-operating EuroWings. These are flights with no relevance (except for the feed to the DUS long-haul routes) to the intercontinental network.

- They are bringing all hub-feeding regional flying in-house: all MUC and FRA feed will be operated by LH CityLine in the near future. Already now, EuroWings doesn't feed FRA or MUC. LH has been suspending contracts with Augsburg Airways (from Oct 2013), Contact Air (already) and Cirrus (now defunct). All regional flights feeding the hubs will be operated by fully-integrated LH CityLine.

Now, KL never had such a regional (non-hub) network. But instead, they have been using HV for years to operate flights from regional airports, with bases in RTM and next year EIN.

AF has regional flying from non-hub airports and is trying to find a better way. But the AF MRS base already has different contracts than CDG/ORY, and they also have HV.

Quoting royaldutchgirl (Reply 44):
As a girl from a small nation, it is not always a comforting feeling when companies from huge nations take over your companies, there's a big risk that jobs will be lost, and yes the possible loss of identity plays a role too.

That's life. Especially when former state-owned companies, protected by (sometimes irrational laws), suddenly have to compete with other companies. I think, KL can offer more jobs to the Dutch economy the way it's now, than when it would be stand-alone. Just look at what happens to SK.

Quoting aloges (Reply 47):
Sabena was, essentially, a casualty of 9/11 and Swissair's hubris.

Sabena went bankrupt because they couldn't compete in the real (liberalized) world. When under government ownership, they had 1 (one!) profitable year in their whole existence. They just couldn't adjust to the free market. 9/11 was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: SuperCaravelle
Posted 2012-12-18 15:02:14 and read 3802 times.

Quoting joost (Reply 48):

I believe the idea is already gone. Especially, as AF is actively trying to sell loss-making CityJet. IMO, the whole idea was only launched in order to put pressure on the unions while negotiating wages and conditions.

For a regional airline whose prime purpose is to feed the long-haul network, I don't believe a separate company is the best way to go. And I don't believe AF/KL is pursuing it either.

Still, it seems to be the way some other airlines are going, with Finnair teaming up with FlyBe, Lufthansa creating a few new cheap/regional carriers (sure, in own control, but CityJet/KLM Hopper would be in own control too), etc. Not to mention the US market.

I'm not convinced it's the way to go (especially in the long-run), but you never know.

Quoting royaldutchgirl (Reply 44):


As a girl from a small nation, it is not always a comforting feeling when companies from huge nations take over your companies, there's a big risk that jobs will be lost, and yes the possible loss of identity plays a role too. This doesn't mean I'm misty-eyed nationalistic. That would be hilarious, in aviation you cannot be so nationalistic, aviation is about travelling, you need eachother. Besides, it is not just about my own national airline, I was also very sad when Belgium's SABENA was destroyed, and more recently the loss of good old Hungarian MALEV. But like it or not, as long as there's human beings, there will be sentimental feelings.

The Netherlands is not that small though. Small compared to the US and to Germany, yes, but the economy is easily large enough to support an intercontinental airline (not even accounting for the Ruhr area and Flanders, both areas with high economic activity just past the Dutch border and both 1.5 hour away from AMS). You don't have to worry, it would be stupid to leave a hub like AMS, for any airline.

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: joost
Posted 2012-12-19 03:15:14 and read 3350 times.

Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 49):
Still, it seems to be the way some other airlines are going, with Finnair teaming up with FlyBe, Lufthansa creating a few new cheap/regional carriers (sure, in own control, but CityJet/KLM Hopper would be in own control too), etc. Not to mention the US market.

There are basically 4 ways how airlines deploy their regional network (for regional aircraft, roughly planes below 100 seats):

1) Do all the regional flying in-house, so no regional carrier. Examples: SK, SN (Avro's)

2) Have a fully-owned, fully-integrated regional carrier. A different corporate entity, but fully targeted at integrating hub operations. Examples: KLM Cityhopper, LH Cityline, Alitalia Express, American Eagle, PSA Airlines for US, Regional (AF), etc.

3) Have a fully-owned regional carrier who operates like a more-or-less independent business unit. An airline within an airline with (partly) responsibility for it's own routes. Examples: Air Dolomiti and Eurowings for LH, CityJet for AF.

4) Outsource regional flying to a third-party owned (or minority owned) carrier. Examples: Augsburg Airways for LH, FlyBe for Finnair, Pinnacle / Trans State for DL, Air Nostrum for IB.

Looking at recent history, I cannot see a real trend here. Airlines switch business models all the time. DL (with Comair) and NW (Compass, Pinnacle) were all in (2) but now DL switch to (4). LH used the 4th model quite extensively at the time of team Regional, but is now moving to (2) for FRA/MUC and (3) for DUS/HAM/TXL/CGN/STR. IB has Air Nostrum (type 4), but has also launched I2 (type 2) and is trying to buy Vueling and change it from type 4 to type 3.

AF is now trying to sell CityJet and fully integrate Brit Air and Regional, basically moving from type 3 to type 2. But they're also extending cooperation with BE, adding type 4 regional operations.

Interesting movements, but not a single direction IMHO.

Topic: RE: KL To Become An AF Subsidiary
Username: Humberside
Posted 2012-12-19 12:53:27 and read 2889 times.

Quoting joost (Reply 50):
4) Outsource regional flying to a third-party owned (or minority owned) carrier. Examples: Augsburg Airways for LH, FlyBe for Finnair, Pinnacle / Trans State for DL, Air Nostrum for IB.
Quoting joost (Reply 50):
AF is now trying to sell CityJet and fully integrate Brit Air and Regional, basically moving from type 3 to type 2. But they're also extending cooperation with BE, adding type 4 regional operations.

AF haven't outsourced anything to BE. It's just a codeshare (though up until around a decade ago AF 'outsourced' LHR-LYS/TLS to BE)


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