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Topic: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2012-12-20 10:04:51 and read 27735 times.

Tweeded by Jon Ostrower:

- WSJ: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777 Jets And 15 737s
- WSJ: New Boeing Orders From Unidentified Customers
- WSJ: New Boeing 777 Order Worth $9.5 Billion, Before Discounts

http://twitter.com/jonostrower

So, let's start guessing.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: PRFLYER
Posted 2012-12-20 10:06:00 and read 27777 times.

Philippine Airlines...  Wink

[Edited 2012-12-20 10:07:20]

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: SonomaFlyer
Posted 2012-12-20 10:06:52 and read 27738 times.

This sounds different from a Memo of Understanding (which isn't that firm). To narrow it down, which airlines or regions historically conceal firm orders?

Edit: I think this order is too big for PL. EK would've disclosed it as would the other gulf carriers. My supposition is its a China order.

[Edited 2012-12-20 10:08:20]

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: jtdieffen
Posted 2012-12-20 10:18:38 and read 27473 times.

I'm guessing it's the two China orders that were mentioned earlier this year:

China Eastern 20
China Southern 10

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2012-12-20 10:41:58 and read 27166 times.

Or maybe it's UA to replace the 744 fleet. Seems like the right amount.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: redrooster3
Posted 2012-12-20 10:43:55 and read 27130 times.

From the latest O&D spreadsheet, it looks like the same customer ordered both 777s and 737s together. Seen here:
http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/index.cfm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 2):
This sounds different from a Memo of Understanding (which isn't that firm).

Its usually firm when Boeing updates it on their spreadsheet. For example, Thats why you don't see Turkish's 15 77W order on the O&D spreadsheet immediately, The order was announced 2 months ago, but was only updated last week onto the spreadsheet. Its because they wait until the airline firms the deal, then they update.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: The777Man
Posted 2012-12-20 10:53:09 and read 26966 times.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 4):
Or maybe it's UA to replace the 744 fleet. Seems like the right amount.

I wish!

United said before that the A350 would replace the 744s so UA is not so likely to order 77Ws, unfortunately.

It's probably China Eastern and another Chinese carrier.

The777Man

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-12-20 11:05:33 and read 26771 times.

Quoting jtdieffen (Reply 3):
I'm guessing it's the two China orders that were mentioned earlier this year:

China Eastern 20
China Southern 10

Normally these deals are firmed during State Visits, but since it is end of year, China might be giving the US an early XMAS present.  

China Eastern converted their 787s to 45 737s this year, so the 15 737s might be for China Southern or for another customer.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: AV8AJET
Posted 2012-12-20 11:16:45 and read 26601 times.

Maybe AA or DL for some 777-300's?

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-12-20 11:20:30 and read 26532 times.

Quoting AV8AJET (Reply 8):
Maybe AA or DL for some 777-300's?

AA adds them one at a time.

And no way is DL ordering 3 777-300ERs, much less 30. Remember, they're saving cash and buying used.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2012-12-20 11:28:01 and read 26443 times.

Quoting PRFLYER (Reply 1):
Philippine Airlines...

Nah, not so many. I think this order goes to the Chinese carriers: 20 for China Eastern and 10 for China Southern.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2012-12-20 11:28:58 and read 26431 times.

Quoting The777Man (Reply 6):
United said before that the A350 would replace the 744s so UA is not so likely to order 77Ws, unfortunately.

That was under Tilton.

Smisek has stated that they are looking at the A350-1000, 77W, 748I, and A380 for their 744 replacement. And don't forget about the Boeing video a while back showing a 77W in UA Dreamliner livery.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: jfk777
Posted 2012-12-20 11:35:18 and read 26327 times.

Quoting AV8AJET (Reply 8):
Maybe AA or DL for some 777-300's?
Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 4):
Or maybe it's UA to replace the 744 fleet. Seems like the right amount.

Probably a US based airline since they do need 777-300ER range and capacity. 30 is right for Delta and UA with their 744 fleets only getting older. Some of these 777 could be for 777-200ER replacements since United has some over 15 years old. AA could use more then the 10 77W they ordered since GRU, EZE, NRT and LHR all need more capacity. Interesting to speculate who it is, but its not from Asia as those airlines already have big 77W fleets and in Cathay's case A350-1000 on order.

Could be BA. No way its Lufthansa or AF group.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: VCy
Posted 2012-12-20 11:36:15 and read 26297 times.

According to wikipedia (i know) , China Eastern has ordered 20 777-300 ER to replace their 5 340-600

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2012-12-20 11:59:54 and read 26009 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 10):
I think this order goes to the Chinese carriers: 20 for China Eastern and 10 for China Southern.

  

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 12):
Probably a US based airline since they do need 777-300ER range and capacity. 30 is right for Delta and UA with their 744 fleets only getting older.

777-300ER orders from either one would be plausible, but not for 30 units. UA could use about 12-16 and DL could use 8 or so. Both have more 744s than they need. And if I were a betting man, I'd bet on both carriers waiting for the 777-9X, unless it slips quite a bit further...

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: UPS757Pilot
Posted 2012-12-20 12:03:35 and read 25959 times.

Don't forget they could be freighters...There have been on and off again rumors of 5X looking at the 777. Possibly them or FX. 30 would be a significant order for any freight operator, but the article doesn't state a breakdown, so who knows?

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: PRFLYER
Posted 2012-12-20 12:10:29 and read 25787 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 10):
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 10):
Quoting PRFLYER (Reply 1):
Philippine Airlines...

Nah, not so many. I think this order goes to the Chinese carriers: 20 for China Eastern and 10 for China Southern.

I'm basing my guess on this statement by PAL President Ramon Ang.

http://www.mb.com.ph/articles/371334...craft-worth-7-billion#.UNNvh8WHKSo

PAL will consider where to source the remaining 46 of its 100 aircraft requirement, but 26 of the new fleet will be long-bodied planes good for 17 hours travel, from Manila to New York and Manila to Paris, according to Ang.

’The good Boeing planes we are looking at are the 777-300 ER and the upcoming 777-X. We’re also interested in the Boeing 787-9 Dreamliner,’’ President Ramon Ang told reporters.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: DTWPurserBoy
Posted 2012-12-20 12:49:06 and read 24647 times.

Too early for DL to replace the 744 fleet after just spending so much money to update them. There are only 16 744's and DL has publicly stated they intend to fly them until about 2020. They certainly have no need for 30.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: jfk777
Posted 2012-12-20 14:06:38 and read 22801 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 17):
Too early for DL to replace the 744 fleet after just spending so much money to update them. There are only 16 744's and DL has publicly stated they intend to fly them until about 2020. They certainly have no need for 30.

Delta does not have that many pacific worthy airplanes, A330, need not apply here. With Delta's 777LR flying to all corners of South Africa, Dubai and Sydney the 777-300ER could just be what is called for. DL could also use 77W to Brazil, their new JV with Virgin could also use a better plane then a 767 from ATL and JFK to LHR. Flights to CDG and AMS could also use bigger planes, hey if they work for AF and KLM why not Delta ?

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: AA94
Posted 2012-12-20 14:49:20 and read 21831 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 18):
Delta does not have that many pacific worthy airplanes, A330, need not apply here. With Delta's 777LR flying to all corners of South Africa, Dubai and Sydney the 777-300ER could just be what is called for. DL could also use 77W to Brazil, their new JV with Virgin could also use a better plane then a 767 from ATL and JFK to LHR. Flights to CDG and AMS could also use bigger planes, hey if they work for AF and KLM why not Delta ?

DL has said that they are refraining from purchasing new aircraft as they are enjoying great success with the used aircraft market. It seems out of character that they would then place such a large order for planes that don't really fit into their aircraft demand, especially not in that quantity. None of what you've described above requires 30 77Ws.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: nrt1011
Posted 2012-12-20 15:09:47 and read 21406 times.

Good for Delta, it is nice to see an airline effectively using used aircraft for some of their business. Sometimes it is a shame that more airlines do not effectively use A330 much as some are still using that great workhorse the 767. From a customer perspective, if an airline does up these older planes with good seating and services, then I don't really care what plane I fly (as long as it is a wide body)

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: DFWHeavy
Posted 2012-12-20 15:26:17 and read 21021 times.

I can't wait to find out who this order is from. I'd love for it to be a US carrier, but I'm not confident that it is.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: 817Dreamliiner
Posted 2012-12-20 15:31:08 and read 20940 times.

I think this order is from the Chinese, Cant see anyone else who would order that much 777s right now, Well EK would come to mind but they already have loads of them on order. Doubt they would need more now.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: gigneil
Posted 2012-12-20 15:52:28 and read 20497 times.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 11):
Smisek has stated that they are looking at the A350-1000, 77W, 748I, and A380 for their 744 replacement.

But is committed to the order of -900s.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 12):
Probably a US based airline since they do need 777-300ER range and capacity.

Exactly one US carrier has them.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 18):
Delta does not have that many pacific worthy airplanes, A330, need not apply here.

They seem to do just fine with them now.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 18):
their new JV with Virgin could also use a better plane then a 767 from ATL and JFK to LHR.

Could it? Lets see some numbers.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 18):
Flights to CDG and AMS could also use bigger planes, hey if they work for AF and KLM why not Delta ?

Why Delta?

NS

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2012-12-20 15:58:10 and read 20373 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 18):
hey if they work for AF and KLM why not Delta ?

So your going to tell a company that is about to make nearly 2B this year that they aren't doing things right? Really?

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: ER757
Posted 2012-12-20 16:27:51 and read 20427 times.

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 22):
I think this order is from the Chinese, Cant see anyone else who would order that much 777s right now, Well EK would come to mind but they already have loads of them on order. Doubt they would need more now.

I concur that it's probably for China, that would be my guess also. I don't know who they are for but I can say they are not for EK this time around.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: cosmofly
Posted 2012-12-20 16:38:02 and read 20245 times.

It is politically correct for China to do even the slightest bit to help the growing trade imbalance for this year.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: as739x
Posted 2012-12-20 16:38:40 and read 20874 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 9):
AA adds them one at a time.

Isn't that the truth!

Quoting The777Man (Reply 6):
United said before that the A350 would replace the 744s so UA is not so likely to order 77Ws, unfortunately.

Pre-merger UA said this, yes. Now not that I think this will be a UA order or there is one coming, they haven't said they are locked into the A350, considering it's been all Boeing's for s-CO forever and it's a highly loaded s-CO management running the show now.

UA has also acknowledge the issue's they are having with the 747 and the maintenance reliability. Hence the moving them all to SFO.

But I'm probably just on the wishful thinking list with you!

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: gigneil
Posted 2012-12-20 16:44:00 and read 20787 times.

Quoting as739x (Reply 27):
they haven't said they are locked into the A350

They do it all the time internally. The A350s are a done deal.

NS

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: as739x
Posted 2012-12-20 16:50:42 and read 20563 times.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 28):
They do it all the time internally. The A350s are a done deal.

NS

Then again is was wishful thinking.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: SonomaFlyer
Posted 2012-12-20 17:07:06 and read 20347 times.

UA took on the 359 order to replace the 744's. Recall, Airbus let them roll over deposits/contractual liability from an earlier Airbus order to the 359 order. If UA were to cancel the 359 order (absent enough delays or shortfalls on the 359 performance in testing), they would pay millions in penalties.

I'd love this to be a 77W order, I think it would make a great replacement for the 744 and allow UA to aggressively upgauge some of their international service - particularly to the Pacific.

However, I'm not sure there is a business case for 25 359's plus the 787's (they are obligated to take 50 of these) plus 30 77W's. They've already sunk millions to get the 744's outfitted to better standards in F and J and are catching up the maintenance on these birds at SFO. Does it make sense for them to do this if they are ordering 30 77W's?

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: A36001
Posted 2012-12-20 17:17:55 and read 20099 times.

Qantas? please..  

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2012-12-20 17:36:15 and read 19726 times.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 28):
The A350s are a done deal.

They are most surely coming. But is it certain that they will replace 744s? If UA decided it wanted more capacity, it could easily use A350s to replace early 772s, and order something larger as a 744 replacement. (Or just convert the A350s to -1000s and defer them a couple of years accordingly.)

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: SonomaFlyer
Posted 2012-12-20 17:59:16 and read 19367 times.

The 350-1000 is shaping up to be a great a/c. The interesting question is why order the 77W if you have 350-1000's on the way? The 772s are in good shape and are finishing up a rather pricey refurbishment which will enable them to keep on chugging for at least another five years or so.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: warren747sp
Posted 2012-12-20 18:38:17 and read 18526 times.

Why not SAA? About time!

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2012-12-20 18:49:50 and read 18414 times.

Quoting warren747sp (Reply 34):
Why not SAA? About time!

SAA said back in the day that a 4-engine plane like the A346 was better for South Africa's hot conditions than a twin. Don't think that holds water today, though, with EK and QR using the 77W like crazy.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 32):
(Or just convert the A350s to -1000s and defer them a couple of years accordingly.)

Which is what I think UA will probably do in the end, possibly with 10 or so A380s on the side for SFO-Asia (which could be the "breakthrough major customer" for the A380 that Leahy has been hinting at).

[Edited 2012-12-20 18:51:31]

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: BlueSky1976
Posted 2012-12-20 19:28:09 and read 17755 times.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 4):
Or maybe it's UA to replace the 744 fleet. Seems like the right amount.

Nope. United went on the record saying they wanted "next generation" aircraft to replace their 747.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 12):
Probably a US based airline since they do need 777-300ER range and capacity. 30 is right for Delta and UA with their 744 fleets only getting older.

I also think that if it is for US-based carrier, Delta is a given. They have experience with the type and commonality with their 777-200LRs, so -300ER makes perfect sense as they can rotate two types through their long haul network and adjust capacity as needed.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 30):
I'd love this to be a 77W order, I think it would make a great replacement for the 744 and allow UA to aggressively upgauge some of their international service - particularly to the Pacific.

UA went on the record they want to downgauge capacity on Asia service. Their goal is to increase revenues by reducing the number of available economy class seats, while keeping the same number of first and business class seats. This is the reason why A350-900 replaces 747.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 32):
They are most surely coming. But is it certain that they will replace 744s? If UA decided it wanted more capacity, it could easily use A350s to replace early 772s, and order something larger as a 744 replacement.

See above.

If UA needs a larger aircraft, they have the ability to switch to -1000, which appears to be the latest trend, along the switch from -800 to -900.

Should United need to have even larger aircraft, I strongly feel they will wait for the 777-9X.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: ord
Posted 2012-12-20 19:28:10 and read 17765 times.

Here's what Smisek said back over the summer:

http://www.nycaviation.com/2012/07/u...onsidering-big-boeing-airbus-jets/

United is considering the A350-1000, 777x and 747-8. No A380 and no mention of the 77W.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: krisyyz
Posted 2012-12-20 19:57:59 and read 17289 times.

Could it be Swiss? I know their A333s are new, but there was talk of them looking at the 777 to replace the A343 fleet and expand. I think some of their A343s are old AC planes.

KrisYYZ

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2012-12-20 20:59:25 and read 16418 times.

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 36):
UA went on the record they want to downgauge capacity on Asia service. Their goal is to increase revenues by reducing the number of available economy class seats, while keeping the same number of first and business class seats. This is the reason why A350-900 replaces 747.

That was the plan before the merger. The merger considerably changed the situation for their Asia network, and they haven't said anything meaningful since the merger about their long-range widebody plans.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: STT757
Posted 2012-12-21 04:07:03 and read 12156 times.

Quoting ord (Reply 37):
Here's what Smisek said back over the summer:

http://www.nycaviation.com/2012/07/u...jets/

From the Aviation Week article:

Quote:
The European manufacturer’s A380 is “probably a little large for what we need”, but the A350-900 on the other hand “might be suboptimal for some of our routes,” Smisek told Aviation Week during a visit to Frankfurt.

and;

Quote:
Among the aircraft that are under consideration for the higher capacity long-haul segment are the A350-1000, the Boeing 777X and the 747-8, Smisek said.

Now maybe I'm cutting hairs but the article says "among the aircraft" when refering the A350-1000, 747-8I and 77X, I don't see anything that precludes the 77W.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....l/avd_06_29_2012_p01-01-472305.xml

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: jfk777
Posted 2012-12-21 04:33:59 and read 11771 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 24):
So your going to tell a company that is about to make nearly 2B this year that they aren't doing things right? Really

1011 Man,

Yes, why not. Delta has always been conservative. NW flew big planes to Asia for decades, DL should learn from the folks in MSP, those people know how to run an international airline. Delta was late to TWA and Pan AM breakups which left them with no LHR access until 2008 and then very limited access, why else would they be running into a shotgun marriage with Virgin ?

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: mffoda
Posted 2012-12-21 04:40:05 and read 11682 times.

Perhaps, China Airlines is part of this order? I just saw this published.

"TAIPEI: Taiwan's leading carrier China Airlines said Friday it will buy six Boeing 777-300ER aircraft to boost its long-haul passenger fleet.

The announcement came three days after China Airlines said it would lease four Boeing 777-300ERs from US firm GE Capital Aviation Services, as part of an effort to replace ageing aircraft."


http://www.brecorder.com/world/globa...nes-to-buy-six-boeing-planes-.html

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: sweair
Posted 2012-12-21 05:13:21 and read 11252 times.

Will SK ever get a big aircraft again? Above the A343? They did fly DC10s and one 747 back in the good days.

A 77W would be a big step for SK though, maybe some of the bigger CFRP planes will be more to its liking?

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2012-12-21 06:01:23 and read 10604 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 41):
Yes, why not. Delta has always been conservative.

2 billion dollars. say it a few times, think about it.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 41):
NW flew big planes to Asia for decades, DL should learn from the folks in MSP, those people know how to run an international airline.

uh, and Delta still has the same fleet(with 18 more 777s) than NW had.

oh and NW was but a small spot on Delta's ass to Europe. You do get that Delta was the the largest carrier across the Atlantic from 1990 to the UA/CO merger right?

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 41):
Delta was late to TWA and Pan AM breakups which left them with no LHR access until 2008

Ah yes! Tell me about TWA how are they doing? oh wait.
Then Tell me about Pan Am....shit they are gone too.

Here is a little hint, when telling airlines how to do things, try not to tell them to be like two airlines that failed the most  

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-12-21 06:56:36 and read 9881 times.

One of the reasons DL have that $2 billion is because they're not ordering $9 billion worth of new widebody airplanes. They saved over $1 billion taking a shedload of used 717-200s and MD-90s instead of buying new 737-700s or A319-100s


DL's last major new airplane order was the 100 737-900ERs last summer which ran them $4.2 billion, raising their total aircraft purchase commitments to just below $7 billion. Those orders increased the 2012 expenditures by a factor of three (from $70 million to $210 million) and whereas DL previously had no aircraft commitments between 2013 and 2020, they now will be spending $540 million in 2013, $760 million in 2014, $770 million in 2015 and $780 million in 2016 on 737-900ER deliveries.

So if they ordered 30 777-300ERs, even if they received the same 51% discount they did on the 737-900ER, bringing the price down to $150 million an airframe, that's another $4.5 billion in aircraft purchase commitments. Assuming they take 5 a year, that's $750 million, which would double their aircraft expenditures for 2015 and 2016 and increase their expenditures from 2017 by $3 billion (bringing it to $6.7 billion).

Such a massive increase in aircraft commitments flies in the face of their current plans of buying used planes.

[Edited 2012-12-21 06:58:10]

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: AA777223
Posted 2012-12-21 08:20:51 and read 8631 times.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 33):
The 350-1000 is shaping up to be a great a/c. The interesting question is why order the 77W if you have 350-1000's on the way?

Unfortunately, the order books for the two aircraft in the last few years wouldn't seem to agree with you.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: SonomaFlyer
Posted 2012-12-21 08:55:24 and read 8100 times.

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 46):
Unfortunately, the order books for the two aircraft in the last few years wouldn't seem to agree with you.

The 350-1000 didn't garner many orders at first because the specs were a moving target. They took their time to finalize the specs due to input from potential customers. Now that the specs were finalized, airlines are ordering this model (like CX for example).

The 77W is an excellent aircraft and their order book reflects that. However, technology marches on and most airlines want to maximize fuel efficiency. Its why airlines such as EK are howling for Boeing to launch the 777-9X.

[Edited 2012-12-21 09:04:32]

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: columba
Posted 2012-12-21 09:04:19 and read 7950 times.

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 38):
Could it be Swiss? I know their A333s are new, but there was talk of them looking at the 777 to replace the A343 fleet and expand. I think some of their A343s are old AC planes.

Yes I remember the talk but 30 777s might be too much as they only need them for 4 routes or so.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: fun2fly
Posted 2012-12-21 09:07:35 and read 7920 times.

Back on point, who ordered the units?

So far, seems like PAL has the best story based on what we read above. UA and DL are a no b/c of the 15 737's added in addition to the other reasons stated above.

Outside of PAL, I can't even imagine who else it would be that could take 30 frames? It would have to be one of the big dogs just purely due to financing.

Current 30+ frame operators (AF, ANA, AA, BA, CX, EK, FX, KE, Qatar, Saudi, SQ, UA) or leasing companies or Chinese carrier.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: KC135TopBoom
Posted 2012-12-21 09:11:56 and read 7871 times.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 33):
The 350-1000 is shaping up to be a great a/c. The interesting question is why order the 77W if you have 350-1000's on the way? The 772s are in good shape and are finishing up a rather pricey refurbishment which will enable them to keep on chugging for at least another five years or so.

we don't yet know fully what the A-310 will be, so how can you say that? The A-3510 won't be available until close to 2020 with an EIS at 2017. Anyone who orders it now already knows that. The B-77W is available (production deliveries from 2015 on.

We don't even know what model B-777s these are, for sure. The only models of the B-777 that are no longer offered by Boeing are the B-77A and B-773. Boeing is still offering the -200ER, -300ER, -200LR, and -200LRF. There is a possibility this one order could be a mix of models, like 20 B-77Ws and 10 B-77Fs. I'm not saying that is what the order is, I'm just saying what could be.

Let me throw this out for consumption. LH has 20 options on the B-747-8, could they convert those options into 20 B-77Ws and also take 10 more B-77Fs (some for 3S)? They could accelerate the retirement of their MD-11Fs.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: columba
Posted 2012-12-21 09:20:37 and read 7749 times.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 50):
Let me throw this out for consumption. LH has 20 options on the B-747-8, could they convert those options into 20 B-77Ws and also take 10 more B-77Fs (some for 3S)? They could accelerate the retirement of their MD-11Fs.

LH is very pleased with the 747-8I, they decided against the 77W in favor for the 747-8 and doubt that they change their mind again.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-12-21 09:39:13 and read 7540 times.

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 49):
UA and DL are a no b/c of the 15 737's added in addition to the other reasons stated above.

I don't see anything anywhere that links the 777 and 737 orders to the same customer. Even the Boeing literature says customer(s) which is Boeing's standard verbage. Do we automatically tie all UFO's to the same customer in any given week?

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: flightsimer
Posted 2012-12-21 09:44:20 and read 7420 times.

British Airways anyone?

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: vin2basketball
Posted 2012-12-21 09:46:08 and read 7430 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 18):

Delta does not have that many pacific worthy airplanes, A330, need not apply here. With Delta's 777LR flying to all corners of South Africa, Dubai and Sydney the 777-300ER could just be what is called for. DL could also use 77W to Brazil, their new JV with Virgin could also use a better plane then a 767 from ATL and JFK to LHR. Flights to CDG and AMS could also use bigger planes, hey if they work for AF and KLM why not Delta ?

DL can barely find enough flying for 16 744s - how in the world will they fill 30 77Ws

Now if there is a split order - maybe DL takes like 10 of these, then that is reasonable

DTW-NRT
DTW-PVG (bit of a stretch)
DTW-NGO
HNL-NRT
JFK-NRT
JFK-TLV
ATL-GRU

are probably the only routes that could conceivably handle a 77W

DL's 767s are nice - the new 767 is very competitive in J with BA and VS J

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 33):
The 350-1000 is shaping up to be a great a/c. The interesting question is why order the 77W if you have 350-1000's on the way? The 772s are in good shape and are finishing up a rather pricey refurbishment which will enable them to keep on chugging for at least another five years or so.

The 351 is a rather amorphous product at this stage - and the 351 timeline is likely past 2020 at this point - 8-9 yrs, with the continued A350 delays.

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 49):
Back on point, who ordered the units?

So far, seems like PAL has the best story based on what we read above. UA and DL are a no b/c of the 15 737's added in addition to the other reasons stated above.

Outside of PAL, I can't even imagine who else it would be that could take 30 frames? It would have to be one of the big dogs just purely due to financing.

Current 30+ frame operators (AF, ANA, AA, BA, CX, EK, FX, KE, Qatar, Saudi, SQ, UA) or leasing companies or Chinese carrier.

Are all 30 frames for one carrier? or is it a split order

BA is a good candidate

SAA (South African) could use it to replace their entire long haul fleet

Same with LX, though the 333s are better on TATL

JL? they've come back with a vengeance

CX already took more 77Ws earlier this year

QR is a candidate

Saudia unlikely

77Ws perform well for SQ so maybe, but do they really need 30 of them?

Quoting Stitch (Reply 45):
One of the reasons DL have that $2 billion is because they're not ordering $9 billion worth of new widebody airplanes. They saved over $1 billion taking a shedload of used 717-200s and MD-90s instead of buying new 737-700s or A319-100s


DL's last major new airplane order was the 100 737-900ERs last summer which ran them $4.2 billion, raising their total aircraft purchase commitments to just below $7 billion. Those orders increased the 2012 expenditures by a factor of three (from $70 million to $210 million) and whereas DL previously had no aircraft commitments between 2013 and 2020, they now will be spending $540 million in 2013, $760 million in 2014, $770 million in 2015 and $780 million in 2016 on 737-900ER deliveries.

So if they ordered 30 777-300ERs, even if they received the same 51% discount they did on the 737-900ER, bringing the price down to $150 million an airframe, that's another $4.5 billion in aircraft purchase commitments. Assuming they take 5 a year, that's $750 million, which would double their aircraft expenditures for 2015 and 2016 and increase their expenditures from 2017 by $3 billion (bringing it to $6.7 billion).

Such a massive increase in aircraft commitments flies in the face of their current plans of buying used planes.

They could conceivably add around 10 frames though - at 51% discount $1.5 billion - taken over 5 years, only around $300 million extra per year.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-12-21 09:46:52 and read 7448 times.

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 53):
British Airways anyone?

BA is not going to order the 737NG and while they evidently really like the 777-300ER, considering they've updating their 747-400 fleet makes me inclined to not believe they are ordering replacement airframes.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: DFWHeavy
Posted 2012-12-21 10:09:47 and read 7123 times.

I really can't wait to find out who ordered these.. 30 copies of any 777 model is an impressive order (assuming all these are for one customer, which I believe they are).

I'd love to see about 20 77Ws and 10 77Ls, but I know that is just wishful thinking.

Any idea when the announcement is supposed to be made?

I also wonder if the 15 737s are for the same airline that ordered the 777s. If so, makes the order that much more impressive.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: phxa340
Posted 2012-12-21 10:12:29 and read 7114 times.

Highly suspect this is China firming up their deal with Boeing. They ordered 10 and 20 which low and behold totals 30.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2012-12-21 10:19:12 and read 7089 times.

Quoting mffoda (Reply 42):
Perhaps, China Airlines is part of this order? I just saw this published.

"TAIPEI: Taiwan's leading carrier China Airlines said Friday it will buy six Boeing 777-300ER aircraft to boost its long-haul passenger fleet.

The announcement came three days after China Airlines said it would lease four Boeing 777-300ERs from US firm GE Capital Aviation Services, as part of an effort to replace ageing aircraft."

http://www.brecorder.com/world/globa....html

China Airlines is not a part of this deal.

http://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/282186689735184386

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: SonomaFlyer
Posted 2012-12-21 11:32:59 and read 6816 times.

I think PHX was referring to the nation of China which makes the calls regarding ordering for their airlines. Not to be confused with China Airlines which is based in Taiwan.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: as739x
Posted 2012-12-21 11:46:25 and read 6764 times.

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 53):
British Airways anyone?

Thought the same thing.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 55):
BA is not going to order the 737NG and while they evidently really like the 777-300ER, considering they've updating their 747-400 fleet makes me inclined to not believe they are ordering replacement airframes.

Is this a joint order, or 2 orders made the same day? If it were a joint order then it really narrows down the airlines.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 35):
Which is what I think UA will probably do in the end, possibly with 10 or so A380s on the side for SFO-Asia (which could be the "breakthrough major customer" for the A380 that Leahy has been hinting at)

This has been discussed in other threads, but there is no way SFO can handle a hub operation of A380's and UA has said they have no interest at this time.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2012-12-21 11:52:26 and read 6751 times.

It is absolutely positively 100% not DL.
New widebody international aircraft is not in their short/medium term plans.

With all of the past aircraft acquistions/orders at DL, they are not total surprise announcements. There is always plenty of advanced notice about pending decisions and plans.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: strfyr51
Posted 2012-12-21 12:29:45 and read 6644 times.

Quoting as739x (Reply 27):

Up until Last WEEK Glenn Tilton was STILL Chairman of the BOARD, I doubt that Smisek could have changed that order for the fact that the 42 A320's still on order were cancelled out by the order of the 25 A350's. And??
It's actually TOO LATE to cancel that order even if Jeff wanted to. (He probably could but he'd be out he door as SOON as he did it.)
It remains to be seen whether the A350 is any replacement for the 747-422's. I would not bet on it and I'm going to work the airplane. I don't have that kind of faith in Airbus.. At least not yet.
Tilton knows "Jack" about any airplane and if he thought the A350 were good enough to replace a 747? I think he might have been Paid to say that IMO.. But! It could happen, we shall See!!

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: SavannahMark
Posted 2012-12-21 14:29:34 and read 6294 times.

Regardless of who purchases these frames, the B777 continues to be a monster in the sales department. Just a ridiculously good aircraft for anyone with routes requiring its legs.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: Prost
Posted 2012-12-21 15:02:46 and read 6156 times.

Wouldn't the best bet of a customer ordering this many aircraft be a leasing firm?

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: Gunsontheroof
Posted 2012-12-21 15:14:27 and read 6185 times.

They're for CI, folks. Deliveries start in 2014.

http://seattletimes.com/html/busines.../2019953199_boeing777orderxml.html

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: SavannahMark
Posted 2012-12-21 15:18:17 and read 6124 times.

CI is purchasing these aircraft to replace their aging 747-400 fleet. And there remains any speculation as to why the 747-8i isn't selling? Boeing is clearly a victim of their own success.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-12-21 15:21:53 and read 6124 times.

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 65):
They're for CI, folks. Deliveries start in 2014.

CI's order is only for 6 and it's a separate order from these 30, which are shown as UFOs.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: Polot
Posted 2012-12-21 15:22:25 and read 6114 times.

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 65):
They're for CI, folks. Deliveries start in 2014.

Except CI ordered 6, not 30, 777s. The article you posted also makes it clear that this is an addition to the 30 airplane order, not part of- although that could be an assumption on the author's part.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: ER757
Posted 2012-12-21 15:42:27 and read 6039 times.

Quoting SavannahMark (Reply 66):
CI is purchasing these aircraft to replace their aging 747-400 fleet. And there remains any speculation as to why the 747-8i isn't selling? Boeing is clearly a victim of their own success.

Not that your assessment of the 77W isn't correct - it certainly is - 6 of them don't replace CI's 747 fleet. The article says they;re to replace its "older" 747's not their "aging 747 fleet." I still hope there's a place for the 748i at CI, but I know it's a slim hope.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: DTWPurserBoy
Posted 2012-12-21 16:06:30 and read 5971 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 18):
Delta does not have that many pacific worthy airplanes, A330, need not apply here. With Delta's 777LR flying to all corners of South Africa, Dubai and Sydney the 777-300ER could just be what is called for. DL could also use 77W to Brazil, their new JV with Virgin could also use a better plane then a 767 from ATL and JFK to LHR. Flights to CDG and AMS could also use bigger planes, hey if they work for AF and KLM why not Delta ?

Northwest, and now Delta, have used the A330-200 very effectively from SFO-NRT and SEA-NRT. Excellent loads with few (if any) empty seats. DL is conserving cash, paying down debt and watching...and waiting. They don't need to make any immediate decisions. IMHO they would like to buy a mature airplane and not be a launch customer with all the headaches that goes with it.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-12-21 16:09:30 and read 5986 times.

Quoting ER757 (Reply 69):
Not that your assessment of the 77W isn't correct - it certainly is - 6 of them don't replace CI's 747 fleet. The article says they;re to replace its "older" 747's not their "aging 747 fleet." I still hope there's a place for the 748i at CI, but I know it's a slim hope.

Except for the 4 GE powered 744's delivered in 2004/2005 the other 9 are P&W powered and were delivered between 1997 and 1999, so by the time the 777's show up those will all be 15+ years old and ready for replacement.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: jfk777
Posted 2012-12-23 05:55:33 and read 4538 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 70):
Northwest, and now Delta, have used the A330-200 very effectively from SFO-NRT and SEA-NRT. Excellent loads with few (if any) empty seats. DL is conserving cash, paying down debt and watching...and waiting. They don't need to make any immediate decisions. IMHO they would like to buy a mature airplane and not be a launch customer with all the headaches that goes with it.

Advocating Delta buy 77W is not being a "launch customer", its well established airplane. DL already operates its twin the 777-200LR. What is the altnernative, DL buy some used 744's ?

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: DTWPurserBoy
Posted 2012-12-23 08:23:56 and read 4218 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 72):
Advocating Delta buy 77W is not being a "launch customer", its well established airplane. DL already operates its twin the 777-200LR. What is the altnernative, DL buy some used 744's

My apologies....I was thinking in terms of the 787. DL is always looking at the aircraft market and you never know what they are going to do until it is a done deal.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: airlinebuilder
Posted 2012-12-23 08:38:23 and read 4125 times.

any idea as to when these 30 frames orderd will be disclosed? any connections from the inside anyone?

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-12-23 08:46:26 and read 4112 times.

Quoting airlinebuilder (Reply 74):
any idea as to when these 30 frames orderd will be disclosed?

Assuming they are for Chinese carriers, they will likely be revealed at the next high-level meetings between the US and Chinese government.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: The777Man
Posted 2012-12-23 10:43:55 and read 3877 times.

There were rumors before that of the 30, 20 were 77Ws for China Eastern and 10 77Ws for China Southern.

The777Man

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: Polot
Posted 2012-12-23 10:52:47 and read 3852 times.

Quoting The777Man (Reply 76):
There were rumors before that of the 30, 20 were 77Ws for China Eastern and 10 77Ws for China Southern.

Makes sense. Earlier this year they announced they were committing to ordering 20 but it they were waiting for government approval before Boeing would add it to the backlog.

Topic: RE: Boeing Books Orders For 30 777
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2012-12-24 00:16:08 and read 3248 times.

Quoting AV8AJET (Reply 8):
DL for some 777-300's?
Quoting The777Man (Reply 76):
There were rumors before that of the 30, 20 were 77Ws for China Eastern and 10 77Ws for China Southern.

Yeah, SkyTeam! I'll have to get a Chinese visa! 


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