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Topic: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: FATFlyer
Posted 2012-12-20 09:20:30 and read 18022 times.

Allegiant announced this morning it plans to purchase up to 9 A320s previously operated by Iberia. Seven aircraft are planned for 2013 and two for 2014. Average age is 12 years.

The first A320 is expected to enter service in the third quarter of 2013 with all nine aircraft in service by the end of 2014. That first A320 aircraft is only a few months after Allegiant's first A319 enters service.

These are growth aircraft, no additional MD retirements are planned at this time.

http://ir.allegiantair.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=727967

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: clemsonaj
Posted 2012-12-20 09:29:32 and read 17930 times.

Awesome news! Congrats to Allegiant! Is there any indication of possible longer routes with these aircraft?

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: n471wn
Posted 2012-12-20 10:06:20 and read 17631 times.

Delta and Allegiant have figured out the great buys out there in quality used aircraft---sad that other airlines are not as smart

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: FATFlyer
Posted 2012-12-20 10:13:37 and read 17541 times.

Quoting clemsonaj (Reply 1):
Is there any indication of possible longer routes with these aircraft?

No official word but I expect a mix of new longer flights and slightly higher seat capacity flights on some existing routes.

They do indicate there will be no major jump in 2013 planned capacity as they will reduce some MD utilization to use these aircraft. But again no MD retirements due to the purchase.

Quoting n471wn (Reply 2):
Delta and Allegiant have figured out the great buys out there in quality used aircraft---sad that other airlines are not as smart

Exactly why G4 says they are purchasing these aircraft. From the press release:

Quote:
"These transactions represent a tremendous opportunity to purchase a sizeable fleet of sister-ships with CFM powered engines, the same engine type as our A319s, at very attractive prices. Finding up to nine aircraft of this pedigree available for purchase is unusual in our experience. Historically it has been difficult to find owners willing to sell quality assets at this point in their life cycle. Our cash reserves and strong balance sheet continue to provide us a unique ability in the used aircraft space to move on these attractive opportunities."

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2012-12-20 10:13:57 and read 17542 times.

12 year old A320s aren't that bad. I wonder what the purchase price is for them. An airline like Allegiant which potentially could go after a significant number of A319s and A320s could push up the used price of these airplanes. As A320s age and the fleet grows, the used prices have been falling significantly.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2012-12-20 10:28:48 and read 17322 times.

Quoting clemsonaj (Reply 1):
Is there any indication of possible longer routes with these aircraft?

I could see longer LAS/AZA routes than the current longest ones from SBN (FWA-LAS/AZA, we're looking at you). I could also see more Plains state flying from SFB, along with basing a few at PGD to support their growing ops there.

But since the A320s will operate with 177 seats (eleven more than most G4 MD-80s), I also see these planes on existing routes where the A319 (156 seats) is too small, the MD-80 has range issues, and the 757 is too big. And many G4 routes are 95%+ LFs, so between that and the superior fuel burn of the A320 family, they can make even more money with an A320 than with an MD-80. I wouldn't even rule out a small fleet of A321s for G4's higher-frequency routes.

I also noticed that these ex-IB birds are CFM-powered like the A319s. My gut feeling is that G4 will only be looking for CFM A32x from now on, even if IAE birds are cheaper, to save on MX costs.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: LHCVG
Posted 2012-12-20 10:33:04 and read 17276 times.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 5):
I also noticed that these ex-IB birds are CFM-powered like the A319s. My gut feeling is that G4 will only be looking for CFM A32x from now on, even if IAE birds are cheaper, to save on MX costs.

I never knew that - what makes IAE birds cheaper? I thought the V2500's were the better engine on the 320.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: SonomaFlyer
Posted 2012-12-20 10:33:25 and read 17276 times.

I don't see there being many folks willing to sell 321's on the cheap in the near term. G4 will keep their eyes open for opportunities for CFM powered 320's and will phase out the MD-80's once they have enough 319/320's in-house. The fuel burn differences are too large to ignore.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2012-12-20 10:37:30 and read 17215 times.

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 6):
I never knew that - what makes IAE birds cheaper? I thought the V2500's were the better engine on the 320.

I wasn't saying that IAE A32x are cheaper, nor do I know A32x prices. All I was saying was that G4 will stick to buying CFM A32x for fleet commonality even if prices on the used market for IAE A32x are lower at the time of purchase.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: LHCVG
Posted 2012-12-20 10:51:33 and read 17065 times.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 8):
I wasn't saying that IAE A32x are cheaper, nor do I know A32x prices. All I was saying was that G4 will stick to buying CFM A32x for fleet commonality even if prices on the used market for IAE A32x are lower at the time of purchase.

Ah, my mistake. Once I read that again I see what you're saying there.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2012-12-20 11:22:00 and read 16860 times.

Quoting f16arm (Reply 9):

How long till the frontier guys hijack this thread as more "proof" the Allegiant is going to buy frontier?   

Well, both use CFM engines on their A32x, so there might be a grain of truth (but not much, IMO)...

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: B757forever
Posted 2012-12-20 13:53:54 and read 15834 times.

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 6):
I never knew that - what makes IAE birds cheaper? I thought the V2500's were the better engine on the 320

When getting into heavy engine overhaul, the CFM is much cheaper on average than the IAE. There are also more vendors capable of overhauling a CFM than the IAE, which may affect the cost.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: LHCVG
Posted 2012-12-20 13:55:43 and read 15808 times.

Quoting B757forever (Reply 12):
When getting into heavy engine overhaul, the CFM is much cheaper on average than the IAE. There are also more vendors capable of overhauling a CFM than the IAE, which may affect the cost.

That would make sense, and would stand to reason given the 3-spool Rolls DNA of an IAE powerplant.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2012-12-20 14:28:02 and read 15196 times.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 8):

I wasn't saying that IAE A32x are cheaper, nor do I know A32x prices. All I was saying was that G4 will stick to buying CFM A32x for fleet commonality even if prices on the used market for IAE A32x are lower at the time of purchase.

G4 has a tendency to buy used engines and swap engines a lot to save on overhaul expenses. G4 outsources its engine maintenance and the overhauls that are done, so it wouldn't surprise me if they don't care what engine is on the airplane as long as they can find someone to contract the maintenance to. I wouldn't be surprised to see them get into a power by the hour agreement which would completely nullify the benefit of commonality.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: dbo861
Posted 2012-12-20 14:41:09 and read 14997 times.

Smart move. As the A320NEO and 737MAX start getting delivered, several used, still relatively efficient A320s and B737NGs will become available on the second hand market as airlines phase them out for the newer models. They probably won't be as cheap as G4 has been able to get the MD-80s but still better than buying brand new (and more efficient than what they've got).

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: BlueBus
Posted 2012-12-20 15:40:20 and read 14284 times.

Isn't this a bit risky?

I mean they were doing just fine with one aircraft type.

Then they added the 757.

Then the A319.

Now the A320.

Isn't that quite a bit of risk to go from one a/c type to 3-4? Pilot training. Crew training. Heck, even safety cards being printed: all add expense.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: n471wn
Posted 2012-12-20 15:44:15 and read 14212 times.

Quoting BlueBus (Reply 17):
Crew training. Heck, even safety cards being printed: all add expense.

All made very economical due to the cheap purchase price of the used aircraft!!

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2012-12-20 16:19:54 and read 13843 times.

Quoting BlueBus (Reply 17):
Isn't that quite a bit of risk to go from one a/c type to 3-4? Pilot training. Crew training. Heck, even safety cards being printed: all add expense.

Until you go back and realize that this is a Travel Company that happens to own an airline. Not an airline that happens to own a travel company. Their first business is selling packages to vacation destinations. Instead of chartering aircraft they do it themselves. It almost reminds me a bit of Ambassadair some.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: KELPkid
Posted 2012-12-20 16:22:48 and read 13783 times.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 4):
12 year old A320s aren't that bad. I wonder what the purchase price is for them. An airline like Allegiant which potentially could go after a significant number of A319s and A320s could push up the used price of these airplanes. As A320s age and the fleet grows, the used prices have been falling significantly.

The big fall in the price of used A320's is coming-just wait until Airbus fields the 320NEO in significant quantities  

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-12-20 20:32:23 and read 11898 times.

Wow... This early a purchase surprised me. I expected A320s after the A319s. But a purchase decision in 2014 or 2015, not end of 2012!   

Quoting FATFlyer (Thread starter):
Allegiant announced this morning it plans to purchase up to 9 A320s previously operated by Iberia.

Is there any reason these frames would be lower cost?

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 3):
But again no MD retirements due to the purchase.

Interesting... very interesting.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 4):
As A320s age and the fleet grows, the used prices have been falling significantly.

   There will be examples that meet Allergiant's needs. I expected them to hold off until the sharklets and NEO pushed down prices further... but a good deal is a good deal.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 8):
All I was saying was that G4 will stick to buying CFM A32x for fleet commonality even if prices on the used market for IAE A32x are lower at the time of purchase.

I agree with your premise. However, some have found, if they buy enough of each, that operating both engine types is not that much higher an expense. For Allergiant, I think they are buying low cost airframes, as they did with the MD-80s, so most likely they will just be patient.

Quoting BlueBus (Reply 17):
Isn't this a bit risky?
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 20):
The big fall in the price of used A320's is coming-just wait until Airbus fields the 320NEO in significant quantities

   As will the hit in the price of used 733s, 73Gs, and even 737-800s. A step change is coming down the pipe between sharklets/Boeing's new winglets and the new engines.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: TrijetsRMissed
Posted 2012-12-20 21:13:39 and read 11611 times.

Interesting move by G4 and very opportunistic, but what does this say about IB? One man's pain is another man's gain...

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 20):
The big fall in the price of used A320's is coming-just wait until Airbus fields the 320NEO in significant quantities
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 21):
As will the hit in the price of used 733s, 73Gs, and even 737-800s.

It is inevitable that used prices will fall after the NEO & MAX EIS. But the reality is it will take a few years before an abundance of viable 737NG/A320s flood the used market causing prices to plummet dramatically.

Initially, you will see lots of 20+ year old A320s hit the market. But many will likely go right to the scrapyard or to 2nd and 3rd world carriers, desperate to retire their 5-10 734s or MD-81s. In another words, a 1995 build A320 will have little value on the used market in 2018 for legacy/flagship carriers. Additionally, I think most MAX/NEO NBs will first supplement existing fleets - rather than kick-off complete fleet renewal plans - as was the case with the 737NG. Remember, generally speaking the 737NG didn't lead to the phaseout of most classics until the 2000s.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: MLI717fan
Posted 2012-12-20 21:14:00 and read 11613 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):
Wow... This early a purchase surprised me. I expected A320s after the A319s. But a purchase decision in 2014 or 2015, not end of 2012!

I initially agreed with you, it does seem like G4 has been slowing their growth somewhat. Yes, the stats are up over last year, but I think a good chunk of that is due to their MD-80 refit. They added Hawaii this year, made OAK a focus city, and did some expansion at PDG, but I think they can do quite a bit more. A lot of the older G4 stations that traditionally had more than 2x weekly service to certain destinations haven't seen as much seasonal expansion as they used to. I guess what I'm trying to say is that yes, they are adding new markets, but this has come at some expense of frequency to existing markets.

2013 will be an interesting year, with these new planes we will see exciting new things. I think we will also see a reduction in flying to older G4 stations that got lucky enough to have WN keep them after the FL transition. G4 will almost always beat WN on price, but not planning your vacation around the flights has its bonuses too.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: IDAWA
Posted 2012-12-21 02:25:48 and read 10348 times.

I hope they got a REALLY low price for these A320s: while a 12-year old MD-80 has potentially 20 more years of service ahead of it, a 12-year-old A320 will likely hit the scrapheap in less than 10 years.

DC-9s/MD-80s were built to last forever, while A320s start to be "old" at 15 and most of them never reach the age of 20, the reason being complicated avionics to be frequently updated, easy corrosion, and similar.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: LHCVG
Posted 2012-12-21 03:35:34 and read 10065 times.

Quoting IDAWA (Reply 22):

True, but the economics of even an older 320 vs. any Mad Dog that isn't an MD-90 or 717 are WAY better. Now, I would be curious to know how similar-vintage 320s and MD-90s stack up though - that could be an interesting comparison (just operating costs, not taking into account current prices).

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: RWA380
Posted 2012-12-21 03:40:56 and read 10047 times.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 7):
I don't see there being many folks willing to sell 321's on the cheap in the near term. G4 will keep their eyes open for opportunities for CFM powered 320's and will phase out the MD-80's once they have enough 319/320's in-house. The fuel burn differences are too large to ignore
Quoting dbo861 (Reply 14):
Smart move.

Indeed, as the 319's, 320's and maybe 321's, are showing up on the used market G4 can capture some decent frames for much less than new, and the fuel burn will pay for this fleet changeover in time.

Quoting BlueBus (Reply 15):
Isn't this a bit risky?

I mean they were doing just fine with one aircraft type.

Then they added the 757.

Then the A319.

Now the A320.

Isn't that quite a bit of risk to go from one a/c type to 3-4? Pilot training. Crew training. Heck, even safety cards being printed: all add expense.

Riskier staying with a rapidly aging M80 fleet? As was stated above, this is a very smart move on G4's part, the 319's and 320's are likely coming at a good price, the frames likely have 10-20 years left on them, and they are about the same capacity as their M80's. Since G4 has low utilization, these 319, 320 and maybe even 321 aircraft will likely last longer with G4 than any other carrier. With fuel costs as they are, 'd expect these birds will pay for themselves. G4 was going to have to do something with their aging M80's, this is a well thought out financial move by G4 and it seems solid.

Once they go through the initial cost of acquisition, refurbishment to G4 standards, crew re-training on a new type, this will be a big savings on the books for G4. They may take some less than stellar quarters with the aforementioned one time costs, but this will help G4 move into the next decade with a type that will continue to pop up on the used market many many times over, there have been many 32X family aircraft made, the NEO will surely drop the price of a used 320 down further and further.

Since this swap over to the 319's came before any of the latest rumors of a F9 merger, I think it would be very unlikely that the two have anything whatsoever to do with each other, f it happened ever, the common fleet would be nothing more than a happy coincidence.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: clydenairways
Posted 2012-12-21 04:08:32 and read 10302 times.

Quoting IDAWA (Reply 22):
I hope they got a REALLY low price for these A320s: while a 12-year old MD-80 has potentially 20 more years of service ahead of it, a 12-year-old A320 will likely hit the scrapheap in less than 10 years.

DC-9s/MD-80s were built to last forever, while A320s start to be "old" at 15 and most of them never reach the age of 20, the reason being complicated avionics to be frequently updated, easy corrosion, and similar.

I'm sorry but this is Bull.

While it's true that MD's are built like tanks. The reason you A320's being scrapped early is a financial decision rather than a technical one. The value of parts from a A320 is very high and this is the primary driver for these decisions.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: bennett123
Posted 2012-12-21 04:44:31 and read 10052 times.

I keep hearing how well built the DC9/MD80 were, which I do not doubt.

However, if it was a better plane than the B737/A320, then surely it would still be produced.

My understanding is that the numbers favour the B737NG and A320.

David

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: gsoflyer
Posted 2012-12-21 05:21:55 and read 9981 times.

This could help them get the east coast into Las Vegas in Knoxville, Greenville, Greensboro type markets which I think they wanted but couldn't do before.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: gsoflyer
Posted 2012-12-21 05:51:01 and read 9728 times.

Yeah but, quality has little to do with the MD-80/DC9. The 737 was built for nearly a decade before the MD-80 was available. That meant that quite a few carriers already had a fleet containing that type of aircraft. Why would a carrier switch later and have a mixed fleet of aircraft that do nearly the same thing?

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: superjeff
Posted 2012-12-21 06:07:58 and read 9596 times.

Quoting gsoflyer (Reply 28):
Yeah but, quality has little to do with the MD-80/DC9. The 737 was built for nearly a decade before the MD-80 was available. That meant that quite a few carriers already had a fleet containing that type of aircraft. Why would a carrier switch later and have a mixed fleet of aircraft that do nearly the same thing

Not sure I would agree (sticking my 2 cents worth in). The 737 came out several years after the DC9, and, after all, the MD80 is a DC9 (that's how it is certificated), so an airline flying DC9's wouldn't necessarily run from a 737 - look at airlines like Delta, Continental, Ozark/TWA, etc. which flew both types. I do believe that many MD fans believe they built a better quality aircraft (look at the DC8's - many are still flying today) than Boeing, and, viz a viz Airbus, many Boeing fans still believe "If it isn't Boeing, I ain't going."

As for G4, I think they are making a good decision as these planes will not require a tremendous amount of work. IB had their 320's (and 319's/321's) configured in a very high density arrangement; all G4 has to do is modify the galleys (or remove them) to add another 2 or 3 rows of seats to get to the configuration they anticipate. But they WILL be uncomfortable as h*ll for passengers used to a 32" pitch.

Jeff

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: ICEBIRD757
Posted 2012-12-21 06:28:28 and read 9433 times.

Don't forget how much quieter the A320 family is over the MD-80 family. That works well into airports like LGB that monitors the noise closely.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: IDAWA
Posted 2012-12-21 06:34:12 and read 9393 times.

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 25):
The reason you A320's being scrapped early is a financial decision rather than a technical one. The value of parts from a A320 is very high and this is the primary driver for these decisions

Newer A320s feature WAY different engines and avionics vs. the older ones, this reduces interchangeability of parts very much.
If you talk about a 2004-vintage A320 (or most likely A318) being scrapped, that's clearly an aircraft with a lot of useful life remaining that is being scrapped thanks to the high value of its parts; this is a financial decision as you say.
However, if you consider a 1993-vintage A320 being scrapped, that's mostly a technical decision concerning an aircraft that has reached the end of its useful life.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: YNGguins
Posted 2012-12-21 06:40:12 and read 9329 times.

Quoting gsoflyer (Reply 27):

This could help them get the east coast into Las Vegas in Knoxville, Greenville, Greensboro type markets which I think they wanted but couldn't do before.

That is definitely to be expected. The success of the Plattsburgh to Vegas route which launched this week should prove beneficial with the east coast markets eyeing LAS.

In addition, PGD is doing extremely well for Allegiant. This purchase will further allow Allegiant to expand this base into the next year as they can move the MD's from other focus cities to PGD and replace those routes with the A319's.

Exciting times for Allegiant markets in the next two years!

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: N1120A
Posted 2012-12-21 09:06:37 and read 8369 times.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 17):
It almost reminds me a bit of Ambassadair some.

Perhaps a little, but remember that Ambassadair turned into ATA.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 26):
However, if it was a better plane than the B737/A320, then surely it would still be produced.

Well, remember that the 737's builder got the better of a merger with the MD80's maker.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 26):
My understanding is that the numbers favour the B737NG and A320.

And why wouldn't they? The MD80 was first released in the early 80s. The 737NG and A320 are much newer designs and have significantly more range, which is very important. The MD90 actually stacks up much better, but only in its range band.

Quoting superjeff (Reply 29):
the MD80 is a DC9 (that's how it is certificated)

Only the earlier ones.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: FalconKutscher
Posted 2012-12-21 09:13:23 and read 8314 times.

Quoting n471wn (Reply 2):
Delta and Allegiant have figured out the great buys out there in quality used aircraft---sad that other airlines are not as smart

OS, known for always buying new aircraft so far, took former D-ALTF; (OE-LTV, D-ALTF) A320-214 MSN 1553 from AB lately. Will soon be OE-LBJ...

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2012-12-21 10:37:32 and read 8065 times.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 33):
Perhaps a little, but remember that Ambassadair turned into ATA.

That's why I said Ambassadair and not ATA.  

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: N908AW
Posted 2012-12-21 11:24:06 and read 7973 times.

Quoting BlueBus (Reply 15):
Isn't that quite a bit of risk to go from one a/c type to 3-4? Pilot training. Crew training. Heck, even safety cards being printed: all add expense.

Not as risky as it is to stick to an aging fleet that can't do thinks like Hawaii and coast-to-coast The A319/320s are (generally) newer, they are quieter, and are capable of more than the -80s are. In essence, they are doing more while (so far) maintaining their costs and margins.

Allegiant was doing fine with the -80s, of course, but as I saw in an Aviation Week ad a while back with a big picture of a dodo bird: "If you stop evolving, you stop flying." In the airline industry, that adage couldn't be more true. If you sit on your hands when things are going well, then things aren't going to be going well for very much longer.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-12-21 11:41:45 and read 7945 times.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 24):
Indeed, as the 319's, 320's and maybe 321's, are showing up on the used market G4 can capture some decent frames for much less than new, and the fuel burn will pay for this fleet changeover in time.

   But the price must be low enough for G4 to make a decent ROI with their low utilization.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 24):
Since G4 has low utilization, these 319, 320 and maybe even 321 aircraft will likely last longer with G4 than any other carrier.

Agreed. Their low utilization will keep the birds going until they are un-economic.

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 25):
The reason you A320's being scrapped early is a financial decision rather than a technical one. The value of parts from a A320 is very high and this is the primary driver for these decisions.

This puts a narrow window on G4's purchase price. It must be low enough to justify lower utilization of the MD-80 while benefiting from the fuel burn reduction. But the price of the A320s must be high enough so that the seller doesn't scrap the planes.


It will be interesting to see how G4's strategy changes with sharklets and then the NEO.

Quoting superjeff (Reply 29):
But they WILL be uncomfortable as h*ll for passengers used to a 32" pitch.

All mature markets split into 5 (or more) identifiable sub-markets. G4 has their niche. It isn't as if there are any surprises for the customers.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: KELPkid
Posted 2012-12-21 12:58:49 and read 7843 times.

Quoting N908AW (Reply 36):
Allegiant was doing fine with the -80s, of course, but as I saw in an Aviation Week ad a while back with a big picture of a dodo bird: "If you stop evolving, you stop flying." In the airline industry, that adage couldn't be more true. If you sit on your hands when things are going well, then things aren't going to be going well for very much longer.

You mean like Champion Air did with the 727's  

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: TrijetsRMissed
Posted 2012-12-21 14:05:05 and read 7703 times.

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 23):
the economics of even an older 320 vs. any Mad Dog that isn't an MD-90 or 717 are WAY better.

That's not completely true. It is more of a case by case situation. DL, for instance, will presumably retire the majority of their existing A320 fleet before another MD-88 is parked. The A320 is more fuel efficient, but that's not the only factor when considering economics. Dispatch reliability, spare parts/inventory supply, MX costs and ownership costs, and economies of scale, all favor the MD-88.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 24):
G4 was going to have to do something with their aging M80's, this is a well thought out financial move by G4 and it seems solid.

FWIW, earlier this quarter G4 confirmed on an investor presentation that the MD-80 fleet will not drop below 50 frames until 2015 at the earliest.

I think the older/high cycle frames will be parted out for support inventory. G4 has several later build MD-80's that are relatively low cycle and not all that "aged." A sub-fleet of the top 25-30 frames could remain viable for another 5+ years.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 26):
However, if it was a better plane than the B737/A320, then surely it would still be produced.

Well, it did outsell both Airbus and Boeing competitors during it's day... To compare it now is like pairing the A300 vs a 787... not a fair fight.

Quoting superjeff (Reply 29):
I do believe that many MD fans believe they built a better quality aircraft (look at the DC8's - many are still flying today) than Boeing, and, viz a viz Airbus, many Boeing fans still believe "If it isn't Boeing, I ain't going."

As the saying goes, for the perfect plane: You need Lockheed to design it, Douglas to build it, and Boeing to sell it.  

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2012-12-21 14:40:36 and read 7610 times.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 38):
You mean like Champion Air did with the 727's  

Champion went out the right way though. No bankruptcy or anything. Just a very orderly and simple pull down of the company.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: RWA380
Posted 2012-12-21 17:24:49 and read 7460 times.

Quoting superjeff (Reply 29):
But they WILL be uncomfortable as h*ll for passengers used to a 32" pitch.

The major reason I am not buying $200.00 r/t tickets from EUG to HNL for next spring, especially after my one and only NK experience!

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: OB1504
Posted 2012-12-24 20:28:08 and read 6609 times.

Quoting superjeff (Reply 29):
As for G4, I think they are making a good decision as these planes will not require a tremendous amount of work. IB had their 320's (and 319's/321's) configured in a very high density arrangement; all G4 has to do is modify the galleys (or remove them) to add another 2 or 3 rows of seats to get to the configuration they anticipate. But they WILL be uncomfortable as h*ll for passengers used to a 32" pitch.

How many passengers does G4 want to fly in their A320s? NK manages to fit 178 into theirs at 28 inches of seat pitch throughout all but four rows.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: RWA380
Posted 2012-12-25 02:21:26 and read 6331 times.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 42):
NK manages to fit 178 into theirs at 28 inches of seat pitch throughout all but four rows.

And based upon my personal experience only, a most horrid and tortureous experience, I don't feel a 5+ hour flight to Hawaii on G4 would be too much to bear if they have the same seat pitch that NK does, In fact it would seal the deal for me on never flying G4 out of EUG.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2012-12-25 09:32:36 and read 6045 times.

Quoting IDAWA (Reply 22):


I hope they got a REALLY low price for these A320s: while a 12-year old MD-80 has potentially 20 more years of service ahead of it, a 12-year-old A320 will likely hit the scrapheap in less than 10 years.

DC-9s/MD-80s were built to last forever, while A320s start to be "old" at 15 and most of them never reach the age of 20, the reason being complicated avionics to be frequently updated, easy corrosion, and similar.

The MD-80 doesn't have the same reliability as the DC-9, but yes the A320 has the lowest design life of any of the narrowbodies in current production, which leads to lower resale prices.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2010-11-15/html/2010-28363.htm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 26):
I keep hearing how well built the DC9/MD80 were, which I do not doubt.

However, if it was a better plane than the B737/A320, then surely it would still be produced.

My understanding is that the numbers favour the B737NG and A320.

Better is a relative term. Higher design life helps keep lease rates and secondary prices up.

The DC-9 and MD80 were built for different lifetimes. The DC-9 was the airplane intended to last for the most cycles of any jetliner. It was intended for 100,000 cycles.

McDonnell Douglas reduced that to 50,000 cycles for the MD80.

Currently the 737 has the highest design life of any airplane in production. It has a design life of 75,000 cycles.

The A320 has the shortest design life of any narrowbody in production at only 48,000 cycles. Because of the relatively low design life, the A320 can be cheaper to design and build, but this has a significant impact on lease rates and used prices.

All manufacturers have tested the airplanes beyond this threshold and their maintenance programs also go beyond that limit, but once an airplane passes its design life, reliability goes down, part failures go up, corrosion prevention becomes costly, etc.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2012-12-25 09:40:18 and read 6008 times.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 42):
How many passengers does G4 want to fly in their A320s? NK manages to fit 178 into theirs at 28 inches of seat pitch throughout all but four rows.

As stated earlier on this thread, G4 plans on fitting 177 seats in the A320 and 156 in the A319, which means 28" pitch on the A319 and 29" pitch on the A320.

Fortunately, all newly-delivered and refurbished G4 planes come with very slim non-reclining seats (TIMCO 3100) that use a suspension material (a la some high-end office chairs) over leather instead of padding. I flew on a 156-seat Skybus A319 once, and the seats were padded Recaros that reclined at a 28" pitch, which made the flight torture.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: TrijetsRMissed
Posted 2012-12-25 12:30:23 and read 5781 times.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 44):
The MD-80 doesn't have the same reliability as the DC-9,

Perhaps you mean durability, as nothing in the document provided speaks to the MD-80's inferior reliability.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: N1120A
Posted 2012-12-26 04:09:13 and read 5250 times.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 45):
As stated earlier on this thread, G4 plans on fitting 177 seats in the A320 and 156 in the A319, which means 28" pitch on the A319 and 29" pitch on the A320.

156 seats on the A319 will require 2 overwing exits, which I think only Easyjet has ordered. Seems like a rather costly addition, not to mention the questionable economics in gaining only 7 seats for an extra FA.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2012-12-26 06:23:21 and read 5104 times.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 47):
156 seats on the A319 will require 2 overwing exits, which I think only Easyjet has ordered.

G4's A319s are coming from EasyJet and Cebu Pacific, both of which ordered the dual overwing exit option. Skybus had a handful of A319s with that option as well before their demise.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: Aquila3
Posted 2012-12-26 06:24:52 and read 5091 times.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 39):
Dispatch reliability, spare parts/inventory supply, MX costs and ownership costs, and economies of scale, all favor the MD-88.

It seems to me a little broad statement. Maybe I do not understand, but I wonder how could Airbus sell some of them 20 years ago, without giving them out for free.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: MLI717fan
Posted 2012-12-26 06:33:38 and read 5080 times.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 45):

As stated earlier on this thread, G4 plans on fitting 177 seats in the A320 and 156 in the A319, which means 28" pitch on the A319 and 29" pitch on the A320.

G4 had slim seats and moved the seat pocket to above the table tray when I flew on them. It was actually significantly more comfortable than I expected. So much so, I actually took a picture with my phone of the extra room in front of my knees. For the record, I am a little over 6 foot and about 175, and I had a middle seat. I'd take it over a CRJ any time!

For the smaller airports these planes will be heading to, they will be a welcome addition.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: TrijetsRMissed
Posted 2012-12-26 16:56:06 and read 4693 times.

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 49):
Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 39):
Dispatch reliability, spare parts/inventory supply, MX costs and ownership costs, and economies of scale, all favor the MD-88.

It seems to me a little broad statement. Maybe I do not understand, but I wonder how could Airbus sell some of them 20 years ago, without giving them out for free.

I'm not sure I understand your point, but the specific areas I listed are true. A broad statement would be "overall operating costs," no?

To help clarify, my point is unique to DL's operation of their respected MD-88 and A320 fleets. Not the general specs between the two aircraft types.

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 49):
but I wonder how could Airbus sell some of them 20 years ago, without giving them out for free.

Well, those in the industry at the time know that the original NW 1986 A320 order was sold at a loss by Airbus. Although, I don't think that's relevant to the discussion. Most of those aircraft were parked a few years ago...

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: egnr
Posted 2012-12-27 08:07:20 and read 4352 times.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 47):
156 seats on the A319 will require 2 overwing exits, which I think only Easyjet has ordered.

A handful of airlines have ordered (or at least been first operator of) A319s with twin overwing exits:

Germanwings (only twin overwing exit A319 operator using IAE engines?)

View Large View Medium
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Photo © Johannes Kreutzer



easyJet

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Photo © Gerry Stegmeier



Cebu Pacific

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Photo © K.H.Yim



SkyBus

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Photo © Thomas Posch - VAP



Air Berlin

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Photo © Andreas Mueller - Spotterteam Graz



Niki

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Photo © Gerry Stegmeier



Hamburg International

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Photo © Matthias Mai



Some of these have now started moving on through the used market to other carriers such as Allegiant.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: GSPSPOT
Posted 2012-12-27 08:19:27 and read 4298 times.

Quoting MLI717fan (Reply 50):
G4 had slim seats and moved the seat pocket to above the table tray when I flew on them. It was actually significantly more comfortable than I expected. So much so, I actually took a picture with my phone of the extra room in front of my knees. For the record, I am a little over 6 foot and about 175, and I had a middle seat. I'd take it over a CRJ any time!

I had the same exact experience and reaction! Wish other airlines would do this!

But back to the subject of this thread, I sure do hope G4 will see fit to try LAS from GSP again with the new longer-range a/c coming online!

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2012-12-27 17:46:08 and read 4054 times.

Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 53):
But back to the subject of this thread, I sure do hope G4 will see fit to try LAS from GSP again with the new longer-range a/c coming online!

Same goes for FWA-LAS.

The big reason besides fuel that they dropped it in the first place (cutthroat competition down I-69 at IND) is no more now that only WN flies IND-LAS at fares to match. The MD-80 can and did make the trip just fine (especially with the 10,000+ foot runways at both ends), but I think the lower fuel burn and better economics of the A320 family make a far better case for the return of FWA-LAS than if Mad Dogs were to be used.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: YNGguins
Posted 2012-12-27 18:07:16 and read 4004 times.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 54):
Same goes for FWA-LAS.

The big reason besides fuel that they dropped it in the first place (cutthroat competition down I-69 at IND) is no more now that only WN flies IND-LAS at fares to match. The MD-80 can and did make the trip just fine (especially with the 10,000+ foot runways at both ends), but I think the lower fuel burn and better economics of the A320 family make a far better case for the return of FWA-LAS than if Mad Dogs were to be used.

We will be seeing routes from the Great Lakes and East Coast to LAS in due time. I would guess in 3Q or 4Q of 2013. Plattsburgh to LAS is doing very well right now in early bookings, which bodes well for many other cities across this part of the country.

I would argue that Allegiant will go into the markets whose competitor airports have little frequency out to LAS.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2012-12-27 18:12:16 and read 3990 times.

Quoting B757forever (Reply 11):

When getting into heavy engine overhaul, the CFM is much cheaper on average than the IAE. There are also more vendors capable of overhauling a CFM than the IAE, which may affect the cost.

I don't think any of the US airlines with IAE engines do them in house?

Delta does do the CFM56-3/5/7 in house for those that don't know but the IAE are sent to somewhere in Europe IIRC.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: AWACSooner
Posted 2012-12-27 18:35:08 and read 3936 times.

I'm curious to see if G4 configures them like NK...no recline and 28" pitch.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2012-12-27 18:54:33 and read 3906 times.

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 57):
I'm curious to see if G4 configures them like NK...no recline and 28" pitch.

All of G4's planes either have or will be converted to no-recline seats. G4 seems to like the TIMCO 3100, as that's what they've been using in their MD-80 166-seat retrofits and on the 757s.

As for the pitch of the G4 A32x, it should be 28" on the A319 and 29" on the A320. Regarding the pitch difference for the A320: G4's A320s will have 177 seats in one class vs. NK's 178 seats in 2 classes.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: AWACSooner
Posted 2012-12-27 18:58:20 and read 3890 times.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 58):
As for the pitch of the G4 A32x, it should be 28" on the A319 and 29" on the A320. Regarding the pitch difference for the A320: G4's A320s will have 177 seats in one class vs. NK's 178 seats in 2 classes.

      No thanks...that's a tad too tight for me.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: RWA380
Posted 2012-12-28 03:46:53 and read 3633 times.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 58):
As for the pitch of the G4 A32x, it should be 28" on the A319 and 29" on the A320. Regarding the pitch difference for the A320: G4's A320s will have 177 seats in one class vs. NK's 178 seats in 2 classes.

If you can call those few big seats up front on NK another class, How much pitch does G4 offer on their 757's?

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 59):
No thanks...that's a tad too tight for me.

I thought it wasn't, then I flew NK, now I agree with you, at least I tried it, so I can say it with perspective. Never again!

Topic: RE: Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s
Username: Devilfish
Posted 2012-12-28 09:50:48 and read 3405 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):
Wow... This early a purchase surprised me. I expected A320s after the A319s. But a purchase decision in 2014 or 2015, not end of 2012!

This could be a factor.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...319-deal-with-cebu-pacific-380574/

Quote:
"Allegiant Air has cancelled its deal to lease 10 Airbus A319s from Cebu Pacific, citing the inability to agree on economic provisions.

The Las Vegas-based low-cost carrier says that they failed to 'satisfy certain conditions' in finalising an agreement with Cebu Pacific for the aircraft, in a statement. The two signed a letter of intent on 30 July 2012.

'We are disappointed that we were not able to finalise this agreement on which we spent a substantial amount of time and effort,' says Andrew Levy, president of Allegiant. 'Unfortunately we were unable to come to terms on some of the economic provisions of the transaction and as we have demonstrated in the past, we will not purchase aircraft just for the sake of growth. Our disciplined approach in asset purchases is a core competency that we will not compromise'."


Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 48):
G4's A319s are coming from EasyJet and Cebu Pacific, both of which ordered the dual overwing exit option.
Quoting egnr (Reply 52):
Cebu Pacific

Most likely only from EasyJet for now, given the above report.


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