Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5646133/

Topic: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: liftsifter
Posted 2012-12-28 19:05:01 and read 23809 times.

I'm keen on knowing what the deal is with EK and North America, particularly the US. EK can do a lot of expansion into the US with huge amounts of cargo, especially in large cities like ORD and MIA. What's the deal?

This article: http://english.nuqudy.com/Gulf/Dubai%E2%80%99s_Emirates_Ey-1803 Mentions ORD and other cities but nothing on if they actually will happen.

Has EK announced any new routes for 2013 anyhow?

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-12-28 19:19:29 and read 23742 times.

Quoting liftsifter (Thread starter):

Has EK announced any new routes for 2013 anyhow?

EK begins service to WAW in February and just started service to ADL and LYS within the past month.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: Prost
Posted 2012-12-28 19:42:05 and read 23579 times.

My take is that DXB isn't as brilliant of a connecting hub for North American traffic flows. I spoke with someone here in SEA who took EK from SEA-BKK. It was cheaper for them than flying via ICN or NRT, the two most logical connecting hubs, in fact the routing is 1/3 longer.

Now DXB is more reasonable hub for connecting to Africa, and its a brilliant hub for connecting to the south Asian sub-continent, but those regions aren't very strong for US traffic flows.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: B747forever
Posted 2012-12-28 20:40:37 and read 23327 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 1):
Has EK announced any new routes for 2013 anyhow?
EK begins service to WAW in February and just started service to ADL and LYS within the past month.

Rumour has it they will commence ARN in June.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2012-12-28 20:45:34 and read 23302 times.

Here I go...
1) Location. DXB isn't great for North American passengers. Most pax are to Europe or Pacific Asia. Better served in other places.
2) Among the general US population, EK isn't a big name. This is partly due to the lack of strong US presence, but EK ismuch more known in Europe and Asia.
3) Our types of flying. US rail service sucks! We fly for business waaayy too much. I like it that way, but it makes us quite often devoted Frequent Fliers. Ut might actually help on this front if EK had alliances or codeshares more than B6 in the US. We have our airline.
4) Our hell bent patriotism. I know people who would rather take US than BA just because it is a US airline and therefore "better." Also, the words "middle east" conjure terroristic images. This has noooooo bearing, especially in the UAE, but we won't change easily.
All that said...There is a market. The US is a major hole in a rapidly expanding EK network. We will see expansion in the US.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: IAH59
Posted 2012-12-28 21:36:52 and read 23048 times.

The south asian/ Middle east/ Africa traffic flow is good from cities like Chicago, Houston, Dallas, Washington D.C, New York/ Newark area, San Francisco, and, Los Angles.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-12-28 21:37:54 and read 23051 times.

EK's revenue ex-North America has done well, but as others have noted, its only to certain destinations. Out of LAX, the planes (now down to 1X/day) seem to do quite well. JFK and IAH also do well. Does anyone know how IAD is doing? How about DFW?

What a concept to have this thread as it wasn't that long ago that EK started JFK as the first mid-east to US route back in 2004! Look how much they've grown to the America's in less than a decade. There is obviously demand.

Quoting Prost (Reply 2):
I spoke with someone here in SEA

The weakest of the North America destinations. I expect it to be dropped eventually. Occasionally EK does mis-predict demand. But as a 'numbers run' airline, they identify and correct their mistakes. e.g., dropping one flight from LAX until the economy recovers.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 4):
We will see expansion in the US.

   I believe there is a lull until the mid-2013 deliveries of the high MTOW A388s with the wing twist. Those will have far better economics for DXB-Americas. They should bring SFO and LAX into A388 range. That will free up a number of long haul 777s for expansion.

Quoting Prost (Reply 2):
Now DXB is more reasonable hub for connecting to Africa, and its a brilliant hub for connecting to the south Asian sub-continent, but those regions aren't very strong for US traffic flows.

Maybe its living in Los Angeles, but I cannot swing a cat in a restaurant without hitting someone who will fly EK to those destinations within 60 days. Perhaps for other cities, but for IT outsourcing, "Bollywood", and trade, there is big demand to the sub-continent. The flows to Africa aren't huge, but with the rise of 'eco-tourism,' I know tons going that way. Yea... Ironic, but that is its own thread.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: liftsifter
Posted 2012-12-28 21:42:19 and read 23008 times.

I can't fathom EY holding up ORD-AUH for more than 2 grand a return trip, and EK putting off ORD for years, when they offer a shorter trip (JFK-DXB) for quite less than that.

Seems pretty odd to me.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2012-12-28 21:54:29 and read 22954 times.

EK will expand. I envision the upgraded 380s replacing 777s on to add capacity and overall reduce the A380 cost per flight. Don't forget EK has a lot of 77Ws and 350s on order. Great for testing the waters in the US.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-12-28 22:04:00 and read 22895 times.

For discussion,
EK made 10.9% of their revenue from the Americas. See pg. 41 of the 2011-2012 annual report:

http://www.theemiratesgroup.com/engl...h/facts-figures/annual-report.aspx

Quoting liftsifter (Reply 7):
ems pretty odd to me.

How much is EY helped with connections. If AA and EK do sign an agreement, ORD should be on the map quick (unless flown on AA metal).

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: IAH59
Posted 2012-12-28 22:10:03 and read 22847 times.

Why is Qatar Airways and Emirates looking to do connections with AA ?? Why UA,DL, or, US On UA website they offer Emirates if you want to go to Karachi. I know UA and Qatar use to have partnership.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2012-12-28 22:17:13 and read 22807 times.

QR is joining OW. As far as connections go, AA has large cities/destinations for hubs. Good O&D and connections. AA is probably looking for ways to get any revenue and would probably sign an agreement. Also, codeshares aren't just one airline saying "fly my pax!" Its a deal. AA wants it, UA is focusing more on East Asia. US has a QR codeshare. The airlines will go with the best codeshares.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: HB-IWC
Posted 2012-12-28 22:23:44 and read 22793 times.

EK keeps growing on its North America routes:

* it has just upgauged LAX from B77L to B77W
* on January 01, it will upgauge the second daily JFK rotation from B77W to A388
* on February 01, it will upgauge IAD from B77L to B77W

The SEA and DFW routes have been performing better and better and will ultimaltely upgauge to B77W as well.

I would fully expect EK to announce one or even two new US destinations for a 2013 launch and my money is on BOS from May or June and MIA from October or November.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2012-12-28 22:31:01 and read 22756 times.

BOS, MIA, ORD, SFO or *small chance* IAH could be announced next year.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: legacyins
Posted 2012-12-28 22:37:28 and read 22706 times.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 13):
BOS, MIA, ORD, SFO or *small chance* IAH could be announced next year.

EK has been flying to SFO since 2008 and IAH even earlier. Suggest you check their route map.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: nrt1011
Posted 2012-12-28 22:39:54 and read 22688 times.

How is EK doing on its DXB-YYZ-DXB route?

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: IAH59
Posted 2012-12-28 22:45:12 and read 22657 times.

IAH was like EK 2nd NA destination.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: aznmadsci
Posted 2012-12-29 00:22:12 and read 22335 times.

Quoting IAH59 (Reply 16):
IAH was like EK 2nd NA destination.

It was not like EK 2nd NA destination it IS EK's 2nd North American city.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: IAH59
Posted 2012-12-29 00:44:23 and read 22238 times.

Hopefully the double daily will come back if not atleast some days will be double daily. Or one big A380.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: mah4546
Posted 2012-12-29 01:39:34 and read 22083 times.

Rumor has it Boston and Miami are next. Daily to BOS from 02-Jul-13 and daily to Miami from 01-Oct-13.

Quoting IAH59 (Reply 5):

The south asian/ Middle east/ Africa traffic flow is good from cities like Chicago, Houston, Dallas, Washington D.C, New York/ Newark area, San Francisco, and, Los Angles.


It's way more than that. Atlanta, Boston, Detroit, Miami, Philadelphia and Seattle also all have large local markets to these regions, especially India.

[Edited 2012-12-29 01:49:21]

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: thekennady
Posted 2012-12-29 01:49:39 and read 22025 times.

Quoting Prost (Reply 2):
My take is that DXB isn't as brilliant of a connecting hub for North American traffic flows


Correct. It isnt because its located to far to the east for Europe, most of the middle east and Africa. Its ideal for connections to places like India, pakistan, yemen, even saudi. However, most traffic into DXB does not come from North America. EK makes lots of money tranfering people between Europe and Asia. If u noticed, EK has some of the longest routes from North America in general, being a gulf carrier and not having to pay high fuel prices contributes to routes like DXB-SFO/LAX/DFW/IAH being sucessful, Along with cargo. I can only see them adding 3-4 more cities in North America before they spread themselves too thin in the market. ORD will be announched sooner than later, BOS, DTW, MEX(hot and high),MIA are most likely

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: jcwr56
Posted 2012-12-29 03:06:14 and read 21750 times.

3 things holding up ORD as it was told to me by EK.

1. Aircraft delivery
2. Price of fuel, yes they do look at that when numbers are being crunched.
3. Senior management

No doubt all basic items for any city, but if EK was hell bent to match QR starting up ORD sevice, we would have seen a press release by now.

ORD was submitted for S13 for the Slot conference (daily 1445 arrival), but during discussions it became more clear it will probably be the W13 season or really late S13 (Sept/Oct)

The only issue I see, is them being locked out during the peak times for ORD (1400-1600) if they don't get in sooner than later for arriving connections.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: thekennady
Posted 2012-12-29 04:18:13 and read 21185 times.

Who Will EK with at ORD for connections? Can ORD support all 3 gulf carriers going daily along with RJ, TK, and with AI to india? gonna get crouded to that region soon, it would be great for ORD to keep them all

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: thekennady
Posted 2012-12-29 05:20:52 and read 20504 times.

Amazing! just a matter of minutes after i posted the previous comment, a EK 77W came right over my head enroute DXB-KWI! A sign of things to come.....

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: B777LRF
Posted 2012-12-29 05:29:15 and read 20399 times.

Quoting thekennady (Reply 20):
and not having to pay high fuel prices

Do elaborate. How, exactly, does EK secure lower fuel prices? Or are you, as one might suspect, merely sprouting unfounded garbage based on prejudice and rumours?

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2012-12-29 05:54:13 and read 21008 times.

DXB-USA are also ULH routes. It is easier to make profitable (and set more frequencies) much shorter routes to Europe and Asia.

Some European routes are actually very short. DXB-ATH is 2000 nm, that's the same distance as IAD-LAS. DXB-FCO is just similar to a LAX-BOS. DXB-LON (which has 7 or 8 daily flights with EK, 5 with A380) is the same length as LON-NYC.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 19):
Rumor has it Boston and Miami are next. Daily to BOS from 02-Jul-13 and daily to Miami from 01-Oct-13.

Wow. How do you know that?

[Edited 2012-12-29 06:29:11]

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: FlyingHollander
Posted 2012-12-29 06:12:14 and read 20551 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 25):
DXB-LON (which has 7 or 8 daily flights with EK, 5 with A380) is the same length as DXB-NYC.

I assume you mean the same length as LON-NYC?

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2012-12-29 06:29:30 and read 20936 times.

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 26):

Sure, my mistake!

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: thekennady
Posted 2012-12-29 06:34:03 and read 21031 times.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 24):
Do elaborate. How, exactly, does EK secure lower fuel prices? Or are you, as one might suspect, merely sprouting unfounded garbage based on prejudice and rumours?


EK has a 1 hub operation, they dont pay taxes on fuel bought from the UAE. This allows them to have a advantage in the long haul market, as well as operate so many widebodies. I Live in a oil rich country, thats how they do business.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: B777LRF
Posted 2012-12-29 06:39:38 and read 20992 times.

Quoting thekennady (Reply 28):
EK has a 1 hub operation, they dont pay taxes on fuel bought from the UAE. This allows them to have a advantage in the long haul market, as well as operate so many widebodies. I Live in a oil rich country, thats how they do business.

So, it was unfounded garbage. Here's two bits of news for you. 1) No commercial airline pays tax on aviation fuel. It's against the Warsaw pact. 2) Dubai has very, very little in the way of oil - it's Abu Dhabi who's got the vast majority of the UAE black gold.

So unless you can offer proof that EK buys fuel at less than market rates in DXB, suggest a bit of neck rewinding might be in order.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2012-12-29 06:55:21 and read 20641 times.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 29):
against the Warsaw

The Warsaw pact was an Eastern Block military counterpart to NATO  
What you mean is the Chicago convention and its various amendments and follow up conventions, which took place in various cities, Montreal for instance and IIRC Warsaw as well.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 29):
So unless you can offer proof that EK buys fuel at less than market rates in DXB,

EK pays market rates. What they benefit from in their home country is, that the airline, the regulatory board, the infrastructure, basically everything that makes it tricky and expensive for US or European operators, is, in the UAE, in one hand. What goes throiugh the legal and judiciary systems for instance in Germany in 20 years, goes through one head in 20 seconds. Nice short cut in decision making.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: vinniewinnie
Posted 2012-12-29 06:58:08 and read 20558 times.

Quoting thekennady (Reply 20):
EK has some of the longest routes from North America in general, being a gulf carrier and not having to pay high fuel prices contributes to routes like DXB-SFO/LAX/DFW/IAH being sucessful

Cause EK doesn't refuel at IAH or Lax correct? They carry fuel for both legs of journey! That is a baseless claim honestly even if your statement was true they would still pay the same cost as any American airline on the way back! Not counting the extra fuel burn that EK needs to swallow just to be able to have the necessary fuel to get to DXB!

I could also see DXB carrying some people to East Africa! Granted it is a bit of a detour compared to Europe but if the price is right it works! High density planes, controlled CASM does wonders for an airline like EK!

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: jfk777
Posted 2012-12-29 07:11:24 and read 20407 times.

EK curently flies to JFK, IAD, IAH, DFW, LAX, SFO and SEA. Boston, Miami, and Chicago are really the only cities missing in the USA from their route map. Some cities like Atlanta and Detroit could see EK flights, but do they wan to fly to Delta controled hubs ? ATL to Dubai is already flown by DL.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: thekennady
Posted 2012-12-29 07:26:04 and read 19998 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 32):
ATL to Dubai is already flown by DL.

Yes and relies heavily on connections to support it. QR is looking at ATL with a 787, may add another reason EK stays out of ATL.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: B777LRF
Posted 2012-12-29 07:27:08 and read 19932 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 30):
What you mean is the Chicago convention and its various amendments and follow up conventions

Of course, thanks for the correction  

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: adamh8297
Posted 2012-12-29 10:37:50 and read 16884 times.

Quoting thekennady (Reply 22):

Who Will EK with at ORD for connections? Can ORD support all 3 gulf carriers going daily along with RJ, TK, and with AI to india? gonna get crouded to that region soon, it would be great for ORD to keep them all

Plenty of connections available. They interline with UA and AA plus anyone else serving ORD except for NK and surprisingly AM.

http://www.emirates.com/english/plan...nces-rules-interline-partners.aspx

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2012-12-29 10:51:49 and read 16817 times.

Here are someEK North America load factors this year through October.

DFW - 74.4%
LAX - 85.6%
SEA - 69.2%

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 6):
Maybe its living in Los Angeles, but I cannot swing a cat in a restaurant without hitting someone who will fly EK to those destinations within 60 days. Perhaps for other cities, but for IT outsourcing, "Bollywood", and trade, there is big demand to the sub-continent. The flows to Africa aren't huge, but with the rise of 'eco-tourism,' I know tons going that way. Yea... Ironic, but that is its own thread.

For info, EK is doing real well with some Africa destinations from LAX.
For example to both ADD and NBO, EK is now the market share leader in O&D. To ADD its about 32% of the market and 36% to NBO.

[Edited 2012-12-29 10:54:47]

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: hohd
Posted 2012-12-29 11:48:38 and read 15877 times.

EK flies to surprisingly large number of US destinations considering the distance to DXB and viable connections only to Indian subcontinent, Middle East, Africa and SE Asia. It has managed to capture the majority share to the Indian subcontinent from most cities it operates. The traffic flows on US - India is significant from any major US city.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2012-12-29 11:59:54 and read 15705 times.

Hohd: EK serves a surprising number of destinations period due to the location, distance, and connection options.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: miaintl
Posted 2012-12-29 12:27:06 and read 15287 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 19):

Where are you getting this info from? Is this already uploaded in the GDS? Miami does not have the yields to support EK's mostly premium products. Keep in mind that EK does not have any high-density configured planes to make a flight to MIA feasible.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: mah4546
Posted 2012-12-29 12:32:02 and read 15255 times.

Quoting miaintl (Reply 39):
Quoting mah4546 (Reply 19):

Where are you getting this info from? Is this already uploaded in the GDS? Miami does not have the yields to support EK's mostly premium products. Keep in mind that EK does not have any high-density configured planes to make a flight to MIA feasible.

1) Average fares between Miami and the Arabian Gulf are very high. The premium-configured EK planes will have little problem from Miami. Why do you make stuff up constantly?
2) EK actually does have high-density planes for lower yielding markets. So, again, why are you making stuff up?

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: q120
Posted 2012-12-29 12:34:36 and read 15132 times.

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 31):
Cause EK doesn't refuel at IAH or Lax correct? They carry fuel for both legs of journey! That is a baseless claim honestly even if your statement was true they would still pay the same cost as any American airline on the way back! Not counting the extra fuel burn that EK needs to swallow just to be able to have the necessary fuel to get to DXB!

I have to agree that cannot be done.
However, if they do get fuel subsidizing for one leg of the trip (out of Dubai) that is a competitive advantage and would generate profits. That would not surprise me with this airline.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: liftsifter
Posted 2012-12-29 13:02:08 and read 14792 times.

Quoting thekennady (Reply 28):
they dont pay taxes on fuel bought from the UAE

Not paying tax on that fuel is not EK getting an unfair advantage, it's EK being strategically positioned in a tax free environment. EK pays fair taxes at all destinations and receives no government subsidies.

Quoting thekennady (Reply 28):
advantage in the long haul market

I can tell you, no airline makes it big off of long-haul. Most airlines have long-haul because alliances want them to keep it for connections. Look at RJ for example. I know for fact that RJ hemorrhages on AMM-ORD during the off-season, and they could easily move it to a summer only operation, but AA (OW) wants it for the connections to DFW, LAX, MIA and SEA. Another key reason why EK succeeds, the lack of alliance.

EK is a fair player, just look at high fuel prices affecting EK 2000-2011.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: point2point
Posted 2012-12-29 13:11:05 and read 14676 times.

From the recent Brookings Institute report on U.S. metro areas pax into ex- boarder destinations for the year of 2011

http://www.brookings.edu/research/interactives/aviation
(What a wonderful publication with lots of pertinant data here. Wonder how many hours this took to put together?)

and below are the top U.S. metro areas O&D daily pax to Dubai with at least 10 pax per day.....

NYC 279
Houston 207
Los Angeles 181
Washington DC 139
Atlanta 84
San Francisco 77
Dallas/Fort Worth 55
Chicago 43
Boston 38
Miami 33
Seattle 26
Orlando 25
Detroit 20
Denver 19
Minneapolis/St Paul 17
San Diego 16
Phoenix 16
Raleigh/Durham 15
Tampa 15
Las Vegas 15
Honolulu 14
San Antonio 12
Philadelphia 11
Indianapolis 10

Who knows? We may soon be seeing EK into HNL, RDU, SAT and IND........

 

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: miaintl
Posted 2012-12-29 13:11:58 and read 14658 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 40):

Just because the fares are high does not mean its a high-yielding market. What Gulf companies or corporations are based in Miami? What ties does Miami have to the Indian Subcontinent? Grant, there a sizable South Asian population in Dade-county but that market is already well served by LH/AF/BA through their European hubs. I think if Miami was such an important destination it would have been served years ago. Whenever EK or any gulf carrier announces new destinations MIA is never mentioned nor even hinted at. The only carrier who showed any interest was TK back in 2011, but nothing has developed since.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: YYCspotter
Posted 2012-12-29 13:15:58 and read 14609 times.

I have heard rumors that EK was looking to start DXB-YYZ-YYC or something along the lines of that. Probably unlikely that they would go through with it, though.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: liftsifter
Posted 2012-12-29 13:18:26 and read 14532 times.

Quoting YYCspotter (Reply 45):
EK was looking to start DXB-YYZ-YYC

I heard that somewhere too. Also heard something about Canadian authorities not being too kind to the idea of EK having a larger presence in Canada.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: mah4546
Posted 2012-12-29 13:59:30 and read 14076 times.

Quoting miaintl (Reply 44):
Just because the fares are high does not mean its a high-yielding market.

When the average one-way fare exceeds $1,500, as it does in MIADXB, then, yes, it's a high-yielding market. Doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

Quoting miaintl (Reply 44):
What Gulf companies or corporations are based in Miami?

Well, first of all, there is Dubai World, who owns half of the Fountain Blue. Maybe you've heard of it? It's Miami's biggest hotel. Further, in 2011, there was approximately $1.5B in trade between the UAE and Florida, making Florida one of the UAE's biggest trading partner in the U.S. after only California, Texas and New York.

I'm not here to do your homework. The business ties are there, especially in tourism and shipping industries, and only getting stronger, as Dubai-based investors and multinationals have been a primary driving force in Miami's recent construction boom.

Quoting miaintl (Reply 44):
What ties does Miami have to the Indian Subcontinent?

Citrix Systems and some entertainment industry connections, but the market is largely VFR, like most U.S.-India.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-12-29 14:56:14 and read 13451 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 40):
EK actually does have high-density planes for lower yielding markets.

Even EK's lowest-density 77Ws are high-density compared to certain other carriers operating the same type. Compare EK's 77Ws with ANA's longhaul 77Ws for example. EK's have at least 100 more seats.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: jonathanxxxx
Posted 2012-12-29 15:07:42 and read 13283 times.

Quoting miaintl (Reply 44):
ust because the fares are high does not mean its a high-yielding market.

It doesn't...? Excuse my ignorance but then what exactly does high yielding mean..?

Quoting point2point (Reply 43):

From the recent Brookings Institute report on U.S. metro areas pax into ex- boarder destinations for the year of 2011

http://www.brookings.edu/research/interactives/aviation
(What a wonderful publication with lots of pertinant data here. Wonder how many hours this took to put together?)

and below are the top U.S. metro areas O&D daily pax to Dubai with at least 10 pax per day.....

NYC 279
Houston 207
Los Angeles 181
Washington DC 139
Atlanta 84
San Francisco 77
Dallas/Fort Worth 55
Chicago 43
Boston 38
Miami 33
Seattle 26
Orlando 25
Detroit 20
Denver 19
Minneapolis/St Paul 17
San Diego 16
Phoenix 16
Raleigh/Durham 15
Tampa 15
Las Vegas 15
Honolulu 14
San Antonio 12
Philadelphia 11
Indianapolis 10

Who knows? We may soon be seeing EK into HNL, RDU, SAT and IND........

Very interesting list.... So basically the largest markets not served by Emirates would be ATL, ORD, BOS, MIA and MCO. Interesting to note that SEA is served but is smaller than all the ones mentioned except MCO. Not only that but ATL has service from DL and ORD has other gulf carriers.... So that leaves BOS and MIA as the next possible destinations? Very interesting...

EDIT: After reviewing the list a bit more it seems JFK, IAH, LAX and IAD all have significantly higher passenger counts than the other destinations... Would be a good comparison to see these numbers before EK entered the market...

[Edited 2012-12-29 15:10:35]

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: mah4546
Posted 2012-12-29 15:22:57 and read 13141 times.

Quoting jonathanxxxx (Reply 49):
EDIT: After reviewing the list a bit more it seems JFK, IAH, LAX and IAD all have significantly higher passenger counts than the other destinations... Would be a good comparison to see these numbers before EK entered the market...

Local markets grew between 300 and 800% after EK entered (or, in the case of IAD, UA and ATL, DL). BOS, MIA, etc. would no doubt see the same growth.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2012-12-29 17:16:33 and read 12060 times.

So adding in a minimum 300% growth rate, ORD has 129 O&D pax daily. Given that the growth will probably be at least 350% and all of the connections at ORD and at DXB (Indian connections will be quite common is my guess) it's safe to say the ORD could support EK service. Same goes for BOS and MIA, all of which have higher PDEW stats than currently served SEA. So I think EK could make ORD, BOS or MIA work fine.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: wedgetail737
Posted 2012-12-29 17:48:16 and read 11495 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 36):
SEA - 69.2%

SEA is the smallest of the EK's North American markets.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: EK413
Posted 2012-12-29 17:49:58 and read 11464 times.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 12):
EK keeps growing on its North America routes:

* it has just upgauged LAX from B77L to B77W
* on January 01, it will upgauge the second daily JFK rotation from B77W to A388
* on February 01, it will upgauge IAD from B77L to B77W

Even though flights which have been previously operated by a B77L & up graded to a B77W bare in mind the flights have weight restrictions...

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 8):

EK will expand. I envision the upgraded 380s replacing 777s on to add capacity and overall reduce the A380 cost per flight. Don't forget EK has a lot of 77Ws and 350s on order. Great for testing the waters in the US.

You got to love EK's strategy and wouldn't surprise me if EK firm up their A380 order books which I believe stands at 120 frames...

Quoting nrt1011 (Reply 15):

How is EK doing on its DXB-YYZ-DXB route?

As far I know it EK are performing very well on the route & pushing for rights to operate daily but have been denied by the Canadian government...

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 38):

Hohd: EK serves a surprising number of destinations period due to the location, distance, and connection options.

The key to EKs success... Geographical located in arms reach of all continents...

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 4):
4) Our hell bent patriotism. I know people who would rather take US than BA just because it is a US airline and therefore "better."

Pretty narrow minded if ask my opinion... I'll prefer EK any day over UA, AA, DL...

EK413

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: captainstefan
Posted 2012-12-29 17:57:32 and read 11430 times.

Quoting Prost (Reply 2):
I spoke with someone here in SEA who took EK from SEA-BKK.

What a coincidence - while at the EK ticket counter in BKK this past June, I ran into a couple from SEA who said the exact same thing. The guy was a Skywards member so that makes me think he flies them when he can (for business or otherwise). Dunno what to make of it, but that certainly is strange.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: HB-IWC
Posted 2012-12-29 18:09:01 and read 11319 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 40):
The premium-configured EK planes
Quoting mah4546 (Reply 40):
EK actually does have high-density planes for lower yielding markets

If and when EK starts BOS, MIA or ORD, it will be with B77L or B77W, both of which have 8 First and 42 Business in the main cabin. Those are not tine premium cabins, but these aircraft are not heavily premium configured either. The difference with the 2-class B77Ws is merely the absence of the 8 F seats, so the difference is not huge and these aircraft are typically deployed on routes where there is just no demand for a First Class cabin, but where there may still be a very healthy demand for premium seats.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: HB-IWC
Posted 2012-12-29 18:14:59 and read 11249 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 36):
SEA - 69.2%
Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 52):
SEA is the smallest of the EK's North American markets

The number quoted reflects performance for the year until October. While SEA arguably had a very shaky start for EK, the route is doing much better now and the 69% load factor is merely indicative of the low numbers for the first couple of months of the service. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see the route upgauged to B77W in the not too distant future.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-12-29 18:37:49 and read 11019 times.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 12):
* on February 01, it will upgauge IAD from B77L to B77W

Sounds like that route is doing well. Any indications on the premium cabin yields?

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 12):
I would fully expect EK to announce one or even two new US destinations for a 2013 launch and my money is on BOS from May or June and MIA from October or November.

Thank you. I agree on MIA, I'd like to know a bit more about the demand from BOS. IMHO, it has potential, but I would have guessed less than SEA and that market is taking time to 'get its legs.'

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 36):

Here are someEK North America load factors this year through October.

DFW - 74.4%
LAX - 85.6%
SEA - 69.2%

Interesting... that implies LAX was past due for up-gauging (not a shock post the reduction) and might even be ready for the A388. (My math says the mid 2013 high MTOW with wing twist will do the LAX-DXB mission with excellent economics.)

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2012-12-29 18:52:06 and read 10909 times.

I would take EK over any US carrier. As for SEA 77W, it might upgauge only for the sake of freeing up some other planes to start other US service. It could probably support a 77W. Give it a few months of good performance and I would say that EK will upgrade it, especially if they add a major legacy carrier codeshare. I think SEA would be a good A350 route.

ORD will probably get a 77W not long after the route starts, and I would think the route will start fairly soon. 2013 announcement, early 2014 start is my best guess.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: point2point
Posted 2012-12-29 18:57:04 and read 10831 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 50):
Local markets grew between 300 and 800% after EK entered
Quoting point2point (Reply 43):
Denver 19

Okay...... gotta do DEN here.

Assuming the high range that the market here can be stimulated 800%, that would put this in the range of 150 daily pax. That's about 1050 weekly, and maybe a 77L about 3-4 times a week could work with local O&D here and support the flight?

At any rate, with marijuana becoming legal here, who knows? Maybe a whole new cottage travel industry springing up? I guess the same could be with SEA and Washington State, eh?

Happy trails........


     

[Edited 2012-12-29 19:01:25]

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2012-12-29 19:09:07 and read 10785 times.

EK Ad: *Emirates now serves both Seattle and Denver. Fly our product on the Pot hub route and get free 0.1 oz of Marijuana. To all in Colorado and Washington: Now that you're high, fly our insanely priced product to India*

Now to be serious: if DEN fluctuates 450% and EK codeshares with UA or WN, 4 weekly 772s could work fine. I honestly see it more likely further down the road on a 359.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: PITrules
Posted 2012-12-29 19:18:30 and read 10674 times.

Quoting jonathanxxxx (Reply 49):

EDIT: After reviewing the list a bit more it seems JFK, IAH, LAX and IAD all have significantly higher passenger counts than the other destinations... Would be a good comparison to see these numbers before EK entered the market...
Quoting mah4546 (Reply 50):
Local markets grew between 300 and 800% after EK entered (or, in the case of IAD, UA and ATL, DL). BOS, MIA, etc. would no doubt see the same growth.

What's interesting, according to point2point's link, is that many if not most markets without service to DXB had similar growth figures between 2003 and 2011. IND, RDU, CMH, CLT, etc all having huge growth rates to DXB.

This further confirms that DXB is a now a major O&D market and not the A.net myth that it is only a connecting hub.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2012-12-29 19:26:35 and read 10671 times.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 61):
This further confirms that DXB is a now a major O&D market and not the A.net myth that it is only a connecting hub.

According to EK spokesperson Steve Double, during 2009 transfer traffic accounted for about 70 percent of its total enplanements.

And regarding the local O&D if you are ever in DXB, look around the airport and you will see its made up of overwhelmingly South Asian laborers. (and hence the strong network commitment of EK and FlyDubai to the region).

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: mah4546
Posted 2012-12-29 19:27:41 and read 10674 times.

Quoting point2point (Reply 59):
Assuming the high range that the market here can be stimulated 800%, that would put this in the range of 150 daily pax.

DEN will not stimulate on the high-range. Strong tourism markets stimulate on the high range. MIA and MCO could maybe stimulate 800% over a decade, but that is still unlikely (500% is more realistic), but DEN would never see that. LAX, NYC, MIA, SFO, LAS and MCO are the easiest stimulated markets in the U.S., and that's where you see ridiculously high stimulation. Of course, it also depends where you are starting from. Back in the late 90s, U.S.-DXB was tiny, even from Houston. It's grown very quickly from all cities, even those without non-stops, over the past few years, so what these markets saw in stimulation might not continue.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: PITrules
Posted 2012-12-29 19:34:21 and read 10631 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 62):
According to EK spokesperson Steve Double, during 2009 transfer traffic accounted for about 70 percent of its total enplanements.

EK only handles about half of DXB's total passengers. The other 100+ airlines are carrying mostly O&D. Also, the DXB airport growth percentages are higher than that of EK, further confirming the mix of transfer passengers vs O&D is increasing more on the O&D side.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: point2point
Posted 2012-12-29 19:36:44 and read 10596 times.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 60):
Fly our product on the Pot hub route and get free 0.1 oz of Marijuana.

That would be cool....... and in order to get around the smoking regulations on the airlines, I guess that they could do something with pot like they do tobacco...... so instead of e-cigarettes...... the airlines can serve e-pot.......

I think that would bring back a lot of wonderful flights.......

But in the meantime, since I'm in Colorado now where medical marijuana has been legal for a while now....... well.... time to go get medicated.......


 

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2012-12-29 19:36:48 and read 10625 times.

EK and FlyDubai (and soon Qantas) are the only carriers connecting pax in Dubai. Almost all other pax are O&D.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: mah4546
Posted 2012-12-29 19:45:58 and read 10597 times.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 66):

EK and FlyDubai (and soon Qantas) are the only carriers connecting pax in Dubai. Almost all other pax are O&D.


That is simply not true at all. Dubai is one the biggest interline transfer points in the world. Daily, thousands upon thousands transfer at DXB between two unaligned airlines via interline.

[Edited 2012-12-29 19:51:10]

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2012-12-29 19:51:39 and read 10536 times.

It is a huge connecting hub. But as far as carriers that operate large connecting hubs there EK and flydubai are really it. AI has many destinations, but doesn't connect many pax there. I neglected to mention pax changing carriers there. But really, who else connects pax there.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: FI642
Posted 2012-12-29 20:07:49 and read 10437 times.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 60):
Now to be serious: if DEN fluctuates 450% and EK codeshares with UA or WN, 4 weekly 772s could work fine. I honestly see it more likely further down the road on a 359.

I see WN code sharing with another carrier long before this is even though of. They are working on a code share from one of their fortress hubs to do that right now. WN is smart. While they are having problems right now, they have the long term picture in mind.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2012-12-29 20:17:53 and read 10427 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 67):
That is simply not true at all. Dubai is one the biggest interline transfer points in the world. Daily, thousands upon thousands transfer at DXB between two unaligned airlines via interline.

   Outside of a place like FRA a huge Star hub, Dubai has one of the highest beyond connection bookings percentage for United Airlines.

For example on a sample flight there are connections to BLR, ISB, HYD, BAH, BOM, KHI, DEL, LHE, DAC and COK

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: HB-IWC
Posted 2012-12-29 20:17:58 and read 10433 times.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 60):
if DEN fluctuates 450% and EK codeshares with UA or WN, 4 weekly 772s could work fine

Not going to happen. EK starts new destinations with daily flights unless bilateral restrictions prohibits it from doing so. Any new US destinations will be launched with a daily frequency.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: bagoldex
Posted 2012-12-29 20:22:10 and read 10414 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 57):
Thank you. I agree on MIA, I'd like to know a bit more about the demand from BOS. IMHO, it has potential, but I would have guessed less than SEA and that market is taking time to 'get its legs.'

I haven't paid much attention to Seattle's numbers but relative to Miami, Boston is a significantly larger market to the Middle East, India and far Southeast Asia.

Boston to:
Mumbai - 39,502
Delhi - 36,905
Beirut - 26,146
Bangalore - 23,825
Ho Chi Minh City - 23,582
Singapore - 16,421
Chennai - 15,115
Hyderabad - 14,557
Bangkok - 14,205
Dubai - 13,704
Amman - 7,414
Riyadh - 6,871
Jeddah-Mecca - 6,189
Tehran - 5,394
Kuwait - 5,335

Miami to:
Mumbai - 20,221
Dubai - 11,961
Jakarta - 11,521
Beirut - 9,841
Bangkok - 8,569
Singapore - 7,655
Amman - 7,170
Ho Chi Minh City - 7,101

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2012-12-29 20:22:27 and read 10392 times.

So IF they laugh DEN in, say, 8 or 10 years on a 359, it will be daily. OK.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: point2point
Posted 2012-12-29 20:23:00 and read 10387 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 63):
DEN will not stimulate on the high-range. Strong tourism markets stimulate on the high range. MIA and MCO could maybe stimulate 800% over a decade, but that is still unlikely (500% is more realistic), but DEN would never see that.

I could more than likely agree with you on this.

However, there is a unique opportunity here (who knows how long and what direction this will go) with changes in voter preference within the State of Colorado, namely that being to legalize marijuana for recreational use. This really is the same now only with the State of Washington, where this happened at the same time and in the same fashion as Colorado.

I know that this is so highly speculative here, yet does open up the imagination.

Look at legalized gambling. This started with Las Vegas and the State of Nevado. Then Atlantic City. Then more along the way like Mohican Sun and the Indian Tribes. Now in a lot of places, and this stimulated economy, and Las Vegas obviously by far the biggest beneficiary. And in other different places and in different ways, but probably most decisively to Las Vegas as this concerns commercial aviation.

So now....... if the City of Denver (where, by the way, since a voter referendum in 2005, allowed anyone over 21years of age, procession of amount of marijuana in an amount of less than 1 ounce) can find a way to cater somehow to this industry, the way Las Vegas caters to gamblers, hmmmmmm....? Are there more gamblers or potheads in the world (probably gamblers, but I wouldn't write of potheads)? But I've actually known friends who have ventured to Amsterdam decades ago - the reason being just to get high.......

And in all of this...... will this attract air pax from the Middle East area? Colorado already has quite a set-up geared to tourism.

Okay, so here's my marketing plan which is obviously way above my pay grade. But yet..... I can only remind that there is rather a unique situation here....... and how can this play out? And I wonder how ambitious this could go, yet wonder if anyone (or some entity) is even aware or ready for this?

 

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2012-12-29 20:34:32 and read 10387 times.

Denver cannot happen on performance grounds.

Tire speed restrictions already limit 777 ops to Europe. With heavier weights, the ground speed needed to get airborne would be exceed the tire speed rating.

Work arounds of slower speed take off using lower rotation angle come with its own payload restrictions and greater risk of tailstrikes, so most airlines wont even plan such.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2012-12-29 20:41:21 and read 10348 times.

I honestly don't think Colorado will legalize gambling. Though I know some that say we will legalize child prostitution as a chain reaction to the marijuana amendment. Many people were undecided on Amendment 64 (marijuana). A lot of votes, and a lot of yes votes, came from Denver up to Boulder. This allowed it to overcome resistance in many areas. Boulder's culture fits quite well with pot, but gambling is a whole other matter. I know people who voted yes on 64 and hats gambling. And most no votes on 64 will be no votes for gambling. Central City and Blackhawk receive a healthy stream of Boulder gamblers, but having casinos in and around Boulder is completely different. I just don't see it happening.

We will be without EK service in DEN for a while. We do have quite a tourism setup. The issue is, most tourism is skiing, especially summit county. Denver itself has a top notch museum, zoo, and other things, but it really isn't a huge tourist city. Colorado Springs is way smaller than the Denver area and probably recieves more tourists. If Denver city can become a larger tourist destination, we have a larger chance of international expansion.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: point2point
Posted 2012-12-29 20:41:24 and read 10294 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 75):
Denver cannot happen on performance grounds.

Tire speed restrictions already limit 777 ops to Europe. With heavier weights, the ground speed needed to get airborne would be exceed the tire speed rating.

Work arounds of slower speed take off using lower rotation angle come with its own payload restrictions and greater risk of tailstrikes, so most airlines wont even plan such.

Well..... if so....... that's a bummer........

How about a 787 or A380?

 

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2012-12-29 20:46:20 and read 10285 times.

How fast must a DXB 772 go to takeoff from DEN? How about a 787/350? (If stats are good enough yet)

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: nrt1011
Posted 2012-12-29 21:01:00 and read 10235 times.

I saw a similar city discussion around Calgary. Denver is very similar, it is simply NOT big enough to warrant a large Asia-DEN or Europe-DEN presence really. A lovely city but sorry Denver, accept who you are

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: point2point
Posted 2012-12-29 21:06:10 and read 10177 times.

Quoting nrt1011 (Reply 79):
I saw a similar city discussion around Calgary. Denver is very similar, it is simply NOT big enough to warrant a large Asia-DEN or Europe-DEN presence really. A lovely city but sorry Denver, accept who you are

Oh, we definitely accept who we are........ many good things about it........


 

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2012-12-29 21:16:53 and read 10227 times.

NOBODY REALLY GETS DEN. NOBODY. It is the international airport for all of Colorado. There are connections from COS and EGE, but DEN is still a huge airport. For this kind of route catchment is Colorado, Utah, Wyoming and parts of AZ and NM. It has numbers similar to BOS. But not enough touriwe and it costs a lot to land a 772 here or get one out to DXB (all the emergency crew duty on the runway overrun on takeoff.)

ALSO...I sometimes see people asking why BJC has no service. The answer is simply because DEN serves the front range just fine. From my house to DEN is a 30 minute drive. Yet I am farther from it than most big city people are to their airport. DEN has a unique catchment area that varies depending on what route you are talking of serving. Add in a UA, WN, and F9 hub along with exorbitant fees and it is a very unique airport with interesting O&D numbers.

Rant over...EK won't serve here for a bit. There might be a small market if they work it right, but MIA and BOS are more important. MUC, CDG, or MAD will receive service first. DEN has a unique market well suited to Mexican, Canadian, and Caribbean expansion. Florida and Mexico are big Vacation destinations.

We will never see JFK type service. But in a while (25 years) we could see NRT, LHR, MAD, CDG, FRA, MUC, DXB, NRT, and ICN.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2012-12-29 21:19:26 and read 10139 times.

And yes, we know who we are. We have a huge percentage of our traffic as domestic. I think 93%. Even higher short haul. And yet...we are the most awesome city and area in the world. EK, go ahead and go elsewhere. We know who we are.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: OB1504
Posted 2012-12-29 21:55:49 and read 10058 times.

Quoting miaintl (Reply 39):
Is this already uploaded in the GDS?

I just checked SABRE and couldn't find any nonstops. Mark isn't the type of person to post unsubstantiated claims, so even if he can't cite his sources, if he says EK will start DXB-MIA on October 1st, I believe him. Now I'm wondering who the ground handler will be...

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-12-29 22:05:24 and read 10022 times.

Quoting bagoldex (Reply 72):
Boston is a significantly larger market to the Middle East, India and far Southeast Asia.

Thank you. Its always good to talk to numbers. I assume those are annual figures? Certainly high enough to attract EK.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 71):
EK starts new destinations with daily flights unless bilateral restrictions prohibits it from doing so. Any new US destinations will be launched with a daily frequency.

I've noted that, but I wonder as the airport 'fills up' if they might go back to launching new routes with lower frequency?

I'm also curious when the new flights (as in which hub wave) we will see the growth.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2012-12-29 22:11:05 and read 10012 times.

The best sources are often people in the loop. But to EK (If this is true): A.net strikes again! We know your new route yet to be announced!! Ha!!

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: nrt1011
Posted 2012-12-29 22:17:29 and read 9973 times.

Yes a great city and so nice to see you are proud. I hope those international aspirations come soon

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2012-12-29 22:23:10 and read 9957 times.

Nah I'm just dreaming. We might get such service someday, but it will be a loooooooonnnng time. Do love DEN, and if Mark is right, congrats MIA! I wonder if QR will serve MIA. It is a major OneWorld hub, but pesky EK beat them there.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: liftsifter
Posted 2012-12-29 22:26:28 and read 9961 times.

Out of curiosity, most airlines have fares to JFK much cheaper than ORD. Any idea if EK will most likely go with a fare similar to QR (~$1700 H/S) or will they cut yields for a competitive edge?

David.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: bagoldex
Posted 2012-12-29 22:27:33 and read 9938 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 84):
Thank you. Its always good to talk to numbers. I assume those are annual figures? Certainly high enough to attract EK.

Yes, annual figures for 2011 from the above-mentioned Brookings report.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: mah4546
Posted 2012-12-29 23:15:50 and read 9800 times.

Quoting bagoldex (Reply 72):
I haven't paid much attention to Seattle's numbers but relative to Miami, Boston is a significantly larger market to the Middle East, India and far Southeast Asia.

There's no doubting that, but BOS is the only major airport in the region, so it takes significant leakage from all over New England, whereas MIA/FLL are only half the major airports in the region, with MCO and TPA being in the vicinity. Airlines studying the Miami market take Tampa and Orlando numbers into account - there is leakage for inbound traffic and all three airports feed each other for outbound traffic. Florida-Asia/India/Middle East/Etc. is typically larger than New England-Asia/India/Middle East/Etc., and to a long-haul carrier, that is taken into strong account. It's not just about serving Boston and Miami - its about serving New England and Florida, and Florida is the bigger market than New England. That's also why MIA stimulates a lot more easily than BOS. It grabs a lot of traffic from MCO and TPA, and BOS doesn't have other large nearby airports to grab traffic from.

You also convienently left off Miami-Manila, larger than any local market you listed and the largest local market between Southeast Asia and the Southeast United States.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 83):
I just checked SABRE and couldn't find any nonstops. Mark isn't the type of person to post unsubstantiated claims, so even if he can't cite his sources, if he says EK will start DXB-MIA on October 1st, I believe him. Now I'm wondering who the ground handler will be...
EK to BOS and MIA is still nothing more than a rumor at this point, but it's strong enough that dates have been leaked.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 87):
I wonder if QR will serve MIA. It is a major OneWorld hub, but pesky EK beat them there.


At a press conference not too long ago, a senior QR official replied "no comment" when asked about whether QR will fly to Miami and Dallas. That's usually a good sign.

[Edited 2012-12-29 23:27:55]

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: wedgetail737
Posted 2012-12-30 00:18:19 and read 9656 times.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 56):
The number quoted reflects performance for the year until October. While SEA arguably had a very shaky start for EK, the route is doing much better now and the 69% load factor is merely indicative of the low numbers for the first couple of months of the service. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see the route upgauged to B77W in the not too distant future.

Don't forget the tonnage of freight EK may carry between SEA and DXB...a great way for EK to obtain spares directly from the Boeing Spares Center, just north of the airport.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: HB-IWC
Posted 2012-12-30 01:01:18 and read 9566 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 90):
EK to BOS and MIA is still nothing more than a rumor at this point, but it's strong enough that dates have been leaked.

Let's nevertheless not forget that a mere 10 months ago ORD had a proposed schedule, a slot application and flight numbers for an early July start and in the end it didn't happen, likely because EK wanted to preempt EY's launch of IAD, but still, it is by no means certain that BOS and MIA will indeed happen. Nobody saw SEA coming, so while my money is on BOS and MIA, we may as well end up with DTW and ATL, or nohing at all, for that matter.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: connies4ever
Posted 2012-12-30 03:52:21 and read 9218 times.

Quoting YYCspotter (Reply 45):
I have heard rumors that EK was looking to start DXB-YYZ-YYC or something along the lines of that. Probably unlikely that they would go through with it, though.
Quoting liftsifter (Reply 46):
I heard that somewhere too. Also heard something about Canadian authorities not being too kind to the idea of EK having a larger presence in Canada.

All this talk about EK coming to YYC is just that: talk. It would be a marginal market for EK at best. In reality, what it is is a stalking horse for more YYZ frequency (currently limited to 3x weekly, same as EY).

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2012-12-30 04:44:51 and read 9060 times.

I wonder what will happen if EK finally announces BOS and MIA for next year.

Will this keep QR and TK away for a while? They have told zillions of times that they planned to start routes to those two airports. Or will they just jump into a bloodbath?

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 90):
You also convienently left off Miami-Manila, larger than any local market you listed and the largest local market between Southeast Asia and the Southeast United States.

Also Orlando (Disneyworld) is a very popular destination for Gulf nationals. And the ever increasing influx of Gulf students to the US (particularly from Saudi Arabia) tend to go to universities in warm California and, specially, in Florida. I think BOS and MIA could work very well for EK for different reasons... I agree that is not only connecting VFR to India.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 60):
EK Ad: *Emirates now serves both Seattle and Denver. Fly our product on the Pot hub route and get free 0.1 oz of Marijuana. To all in Colorado and Washington: Now that you're high, fly our insanely priced product to India*


A bit off-topic, but having lived in the Gulf for a while, I noticed many locals smoked pot (and any other kind of drugs) and it seemed very easy to get (I don't do them but I was offered quite a few times). As funny as it seems, the major religion there that explicity forbids alcohol does not say anything about marihuana, so some people would take drugs instead of drinking alcohol just not to go against any religion. So no need to fly to Denver to get some pot  

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2012-12-30 07:27:38 and read 8728 times.

Yeah...I don't think pot will cause pround EK to come to DEN.
I think that both MIA and BOS will work, and as SCQ83 said, for somewhat different reasons.

Is there a large belly cargo market from MIA or BOS to the middle East? MIA is a very busy cargo airport, but I don't know how much of that is cargo hubs, how much Is location, and how much is need.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-12-30 07:42:10 and read 8676 times.

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 91):
Don't forget the tonnage of freight EK may carry between SEA and DXB...a great way for EK to obtain spares directly from the Boeing Spares Center, just north of the airport.

But an expensive way to obtain the spares too that would limit the route to a 77L if there is significant tonnage. I suspect EK isn't carrying that much in spares on their flight.

Its good to hear the SEA-DXB route is improving. With the A380 deliveries next year, EK could upgauge a few and launch some new. We have two which ties up 5 airframes (approximately). That leaves room for future growth.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 94):
Will this keep QR and TK away for a while? They have told zillions of times that they planned to start routes to those two airports.

TK broadcasts their expansion too far in advance. If EK does start the routes, TK's 'window of opportunity' will be less open, but not closed. For QR, they might still go for it, but the route would take a long time to be profitable. However, it could be the 'coffee house effect' where adding another competitor brings enough attention to the offerings that both end up doing better! It all depends on the economic growth of the destination city.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: adamh8297
Posted 2012-12-30 07:59:58 and read 8650 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 94):
Will this keep QR and TK away for a while? They have told zillions of times that they planned to start routes to those two airports. Or will they just jump into a bloodbath?

My prediction assuming BOS-DXB and MIA-DXB are announced:

BOS: TK jumps into BOS 4 weekly as seen in the link below. QR stays out of BOS for awhile.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/51091426@N07/8269394771/
(This was in the TK Expansion thread here: Turkish Major Expansion Timeline (by tkfan Dec 16 2012 in Civil Aviation))

MIA: I personally cannot see TK and QR avoiding MIA in the long-term (by 2015 both carriers should be there)

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2012-12-30 08:19:22 and read 8545 times.

Quoting bagoldex (Reply 72):
I haven't paid much attention to Seattle's numbers but relative to Miami, Boston is a significantly larger market to the Middle East, India and far Southeast Asia.

Don't forget EK will do well in MIA with connecting pax from the Caribbean and C/S America. A couple of pax of each AA flight from places like TGU, KIN, GCM, BOG, CUN will go a long way to filling that 77W.

And cargo in MIA will be huge for them.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2012-12-30 08:50:25 and read 8447 times.

Combine cargo and central America/Caribbean, and MIA should be nice and profitable. Plus, they could cut fares 20% from what MIA-Gulf is right now and still make a healthy profit.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-12-30 09:40:49 and read 8311 times.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 92):
Let's nevertheless not forget that a mere 10 months ago ORD had a proposed schedule, a slot application and flight numbers for an early July start and in the end it didn't happen, likely because EK wanted to preempt EY's launch of IAD,

What is the status of EK and AA? I suspect that will determine when ORD starts (or if it is on an AA 77W, for AA will want something out of any alliance).

Ironic, QR to join OW and two major partners negotiate with EK...

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 98):
A couple of pax of each AA flight from places like TGU, KIN, GCM, BOG, CUN will go a long way to filling that 77W.

Again, what is the status of EK/AA talks? That will *really* determine EK's going forward to North America. If they come to 'an arrangement,' then EK would benefit dramatically. In particular at ORD and MIA. But also LAX and a few other points.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: wedgetail737
Posted 2012-12-30 10:39:07 and read 8154 times.

In my opinion, I don't think EK will upgauge the equipment on the DXB-SEA flights from 77L to 77W for a while, unless they see an overwhelming need to change the equipment...consistent load factors of 90% or higher.

I think SEA would be too small of a market for another gulf or middle east carrier.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: mcogator
Posted 2012-12-30 11:45:14 and read 8085 times.

I recently flew DXB-ATL-MCO on November 25th. I was in Economy Comfort, and most of my surrounding passengers looked like they were military, with the two passengers in front of me saying they were coming from Afghanistan. There were also quite a few familes, of the Caucasian persuasion. I saw very few South Asian's on the plane, compared to when I flew on EK. I was upgraded on the ATL-MCO flight with my wife, and at least seven of the other passengers were from my flight from DXB. So just in DL F to MCO, 9 of the passengers were to Orlando, which I found surprising. A husband and wife with their 3 kids, two younger gentlemen, and us.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: mcogator
Posted 2012-12-30 12:01:40 and read 7979 times.

I was looking at total flying times from Miami to BKK, and if EK offers a non-stop flight to DXB, they should be the quickest route, or as quick as the Euro airlines, to SE Asia.

Miami-Bangkok

DL: MIA-DTW-NRT-BKK 24 hours flying
EK: MIA-JFK-DXB-BKK 21.20 hours flying
AF: MIA-CDG-BKK 20 hours flying


From the NE US, it's a toss up

New York-Singapore

Delta: JFK-NRT-SIN 21 hours flying
Air China: JFK-PEK-SIN 20 hours flying
Lufthansa: JFK-FRA-SIN 20 hours flying
Emirates: JFK-DXB-SIN 20 hours flying

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: adamh8297
Posted 2012-12-31 07:33:16 and read 7294 times.

Quoting mcogator (Reply 103):

I was looking at total flying times from Miami to BKK, and if EK offers a non-stop flight to DXB, they should be the quickest route, or as quick as the Euro airlines, to SE Asia.

It would be longer (via distance) but connecting wise DXB is probably a better experience than connecting through CDG. You have to factor in the future scheduling. The layover in DXB could be from 90 min to 6 hours.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=mia-dxb...D%0Amia-cdg-bkk%0D%0A&MS=wls&DU=mi

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: mcogator
Posted 2012-12-31 08:11:20 and read 7154 times.

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 104):
It would be longer (via distance) but connecting wise DXB is probably a better experience than connecting through CDG. You have to factor in the future scheduling. The layover in DXB could be from 90 min to 6 hours.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=mia-dxb...DU=mi

I was only quoting flying time according to the respective carriers and not travel time as this could vary widely. But if we were basing on connection times, most likely DXB would win to BKK. I picked a random week, February 16, and EK has 35 weekly flights to BKK, while AF has only 5.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: Malayil
Posted 2012-12-31 09:33:05 and read 6997 times.

How about EWR or PHL? I know they are way down the list for EK with MIA, ORD, BOS and ATL in the pecking order but there is still a lot of demand from the great state of New Jersey to Dubai/India.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-01-01 10:58:58 and read 6335 times.

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 101):
consistent load factors of 90% or higher.

Nitpick, but if EK let load factors get that high they would be throwing away money due to the seasonality of the routes. I expect upgauge when load factors hit ~82%, but perhaps only in 'high season.'

Quoting Malayil (Reply 106):
How about EWR or PHL?

I expect EWR due to the challenge of 'cross town New York.' Now that JFK will be 2X/day A388, the next New York expansion should be a 777 to EWR. But when? I would expect very late 2013 at the earliest, but later more likely (although by end of 2015).

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: ChrisNH
Posted 2013-01-01 11:09:16 and read 6280 times.

Would the route of flight for a MIA run overfly Boston? Would it take a NAT track? If so, would it be suicidal to run Dubai-Boston-Miami-Boston-Dubai?

I know many years ago carriers like Swissair and Lufthansa would go nonstop to Boston and 'tag on' another city like Philadelphia or Detroit. I know traveling preferences are different now and people like to go nonstop, but in the early days of service for two new cities like BOS/MIA might it make sense to co-join them for a little while until they each can sustain themselves with BIG planes?

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: mah4546
Posted 2013-01-01 11:28:19 and read 6246 times.

.

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 108):
I know many years ago carriers like Swissair and Lufthansa would go nonstop to Boston and 'tag on' another city like Philadelphia or Detroit. I know traveling preferences are different now and people like to go nonstop, but in the early days of service for two new cities like BOS/MIA might it make sense to co-join them for a little while until they each can sustain themselves with BIG planes?

Back then, passengers didn't have to deplane at te intermediate stop. Today, however, they do.

Further, neither market needs each other. Boston and Miami are big enough to sustain the service with big planes.

However, there is talk that the Miami flight would continue on to MEX or BOG, which due to altitude/runway cannot handle a non-stop to DXB.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: liftsifter
Posted 2013-01-01 22:33:58 and read 5723 times.

Is EK even capable of acquiring rights to fly MIA-BOS legally? Or is that all good, after deregulation?

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: mah4546
Posted 2013-01-01 22:53:02 and read 5711 times.

Quoting liftsifter (Reply 110):

Is EK even capable of acquiring rights to fly MIA-BOS legally? Or is that all good, after deregulation?


EK is absolutely allowed to fly MIABOS, but passengers cannot be domestic. But they also don't have to be continuing on the same plane. Under a hypothetical situation, a passenger who flew DXBBOS could spend a few days in Boston, and then fly EK on BOSMIA a few days later. Or if EK for whatever reason flew MIAGRU, a passenger could fly EK on BOSMIA and connect to EK on MIAGRU. Or, of EK codeshares with, say, AA, and then AA, for whatever reason, flew BOSDXB, a passenger is allowed to fly an EK plane on MIABOS and connect to an AA plane on BOSDXB.

Obviously none of those scenarios will ever play out, but similar scenarios do play out with QF's JFKLAX route.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: ojas
Posted 2013-01-01 23:28:21 and read 5644 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 109):
Back then, passengers didn't have to deplane at te intermediate stop. Today, however, they do.

Further, neither market needs each other. Boston and Miami are big enough to sustain the service with big planes.

AFAIK, the DXB - ATL flight of DL continues to MIA. How much of that will act as a "competition" to the supposed DXB - MIA EK flight? I'm curious to know.

Topic: RE: Emirates: What's The Deal With N. America?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-01-02 17:39:55 and read 5051 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 111):
Obviously none of those scenarios will ever play out, but similar scenarios do play out with QF's JFKLAX route.

If they operated DXB-YYZ-MIA they could sell 5th freedom traffic YYZ-MIA as the bilateral gives them 5th freedom rights to intermediate or beyond point in the US. However, with only 3 flights a week to YYZ I'm sure they don't need another destination to help fill the seats, unless they wanted to promote the only A380 service in North America. And the bilateral restricts 5th freedom traffic to 50% of the aircraft capacity.


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/