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Topic: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: SKAirbus
Posted 2012-12-29 05:04:25 and read 86058 times.

Breaking news on BBC and NRK (in Norwegian): http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/verden/1.10855720

Saying a passenger aircraft "landed" on a motorway just outside Moscow and is now on fire. No further information as to airline or aircraft type at this stage.

Anyone have anymore information?

Topic: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: seansasLCY
Posted 2012-12-29 05:07:58 and read 86150 times.

I just posted on this but you have more info. Its a tu-204 coming into VKO from the Czech Republic

Topic: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: racko
Posted 2012-12-29 05:12:47 and read 86035 times.

https://twitter.com/RT_com/status/285006960309465088

 

Topic: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: bigsmile
Posted 2012-12-29 05:13:08 and read 86009 times.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20865369

Topic: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: Gonzalo
Posted 2012-12-29 05:13:10 and read 85913 times.

So according to the Norwegian news site the plane is on fire, and no one knows yet how many people on board, or casualties.

Let's hope there are no fatalities...

Rgds.
G.

Topic: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: ltbewr
Posted 2012-12-29 05:14:06 and read 85844 times.

BBC is reporting that the plane ran off the runway upon landing.

Topic: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: trintocan
Posted 2012-12-29 05:16:04 and read 85749 times.

This is very tragic. May there be some good news on survivors.

Trintocan.

Topic: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2012-12-29 05:17:05 and read 85803 times.

Airline: Red Wings Airways

Came from: Czech republic

Topic: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2012-12-29 05:18:01 and read 85839 times.

I just saw this on RT.

A/C type is a Tupolev-204

The aircraft looks in really bad shape from what i see on the picture...
I hope there will not be too many casualties...

http://rt.com/news/plane-vnukovo-airport-moscow-073/

      

[Edited 2012-12-29 05:20:12]

Topic: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: bigsmile
Posted 2012-12-29 05:19:15 and read 85854 times.

image taken from twitter

Big version: Width: 600 Height: 450 File size: 31kb
Overshot runway, taken from twitter


[Edited 2012-12-29 05:20:02]

Topic: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: EliNYC
Posted 2012-12-29 05:19:40 and read 85693 times.

Russian media reports 12 dead - 4 crew, 8 pasenegers. Strange numbers. RIP.

Topic: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: Hywel
Posted 2012-12-29 05:21:14 and read 85598 times.

Quoting EliNYC (Reply 10):

Russian media reports 12 dead - 4 crew, 8 pasenegers. Strange numbers. RIP.

Still unconfirmed.

"The plane may have been carrying 12 people: 8 passengers and 4 crew."

Topic: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2012-12-29 05:23:39 and read 85555 times.

Wikipedia editors on the ball. Sheesh... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Wings_Airlines#Accidents

Topic: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: EliNYC
Posted 2012-12-29 05:23:48 and read 85512 times.

Apologies, other reports say 12 people on board, one dead.

[Edited 2012-12-29 05:24:27]

Topic: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: Gonzalo
Posted 2012-12-29 05:24:11 and read 85450 times.

I don't want to be the pesimistic guy here, but looking at the pictures, the first section of fuselage ( + cockpit ) is just absolutely destroyed...I think, sadly, there is no chance of "Zero Fatalities" in this crash...

R.I.P. to the victims and prayers for their families and friends...

G.

Topic: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: by738
Posted 2012-12-29 05:25:51 and read 85424 times.

twitter
Out of 12 people onboard the crash-landed plane 3 people in critical condition, 2 others severely injured

Topic: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2012-12-29 05:26:28 and read 85419 times.

Russian State television reports that the aircraft was already on fire on approach to land ...

Article in Norwegian:

http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/verden/1.10855720

Topic: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: Hywel
Posted 2012-12-29 05:27:18 and read 85381 times.

In the last 2 months, Red Wings have had 2 other runway excursions in the Tupolev 204...   

Link

Topic: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: KFlyer
Posted 2012-12-29 05:27:37 and read 85359 times.

Appears to be RedWings RA-64047. WZ has 9 of the type in fleet. RIP to all involved.
P.S: Per Flightradar24, it has been on WZ9268 from Czech Republic.

[Edited 2012-12-29 05:32:18]

Topic: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: by738
Posted 2012-12-29 05:34:11 and read 85036 times.

Sorry for all those injured. Without knowing the details though before hand, it was all too predictable. I was predicting either a Russian airliner operating mid winter or a low cost Indonesian/Indian poor weather short haul.
Terrible.

Topic: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2012-12-29 05:35:06 and read 85060 times.

Quoting by738 (Reply 20):
Without knowing the details though before hand, it was all too predictable. I was predicting either a Russian airliner operating mid winter or a low cost Indonesian/Indian poor weather short haul.

Why ?

Topic: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: joekuboj
Posted 2012-12-29 05:35:33 and read 85096 times.

Replay on Flightradar24: http://fr24.com/2012-12-29/10:12/RWZ9268

Topic: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: mika
Posted 2012-12-29 05:35:42 and read 85027 times.

Here's hoping for the best possible outcome...

Topic: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: by738
Posted 2012-12-29 05:37:02 and read 85417 times.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 21):
Why ?

Look through the frequency of aircraft type and location of the most serious civil aviation accidents of the past 10 years.

Topic: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2012-12-29 05:37:49 and read 85456 times.

If the aircraft was on fire already on approach, what could that be ? Engine failure ?


Quoting by738 (Reply 27):
Look through the frequency of aircraft type and location of the most serious civil aviation accidents of the past 10 years.

There has only been 1 accident involving this type of aircraft before and that was without fatalities. So a pretty safe russian aircraft. The type was introduced in 1994.

[Edited 2012-12-29 06:29:33 by SA7700]

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: Gonzalo
Posted 2012-12-29 05:43:09 and read 87731 times.

I was thinking more in a ferry or test flight, 4 crew for 8 passengers on board a twin jet of that capacity sounds crazy...

G.

[Edited 2012-12-29 06:28:27 by SA7700]

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: by738
Posted 2012-12-29 05:46:39 and read 87690 times.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 30):
There has only been 1 accident involving this type of aircraft before

I meant Russian operated aircraft in general, and given there are so few 204s specifically in operation, to have one accident already is a pretty high hit rate.

[Edited 2012-12-29 05:47:32]

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: anfromme
Posted 2012-12-29 05:47:11 and read 90983 times.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 28):
If the aircraft was on fire already on approach, what could that be ? Engine failure ?

To be honest, you hear with every other airplane incident that someone saw the plane, one or more of its engines, its wing, etc. on fire. Mostly turns out not to be the case - see e.g. Spanair 5022 where multiple eyewitnesses reported the engines had been on fire.
As for this Red Wings flight - the plane appears quite damaged, but it doesn't look like there is any fire damage whatsoever, which I think pretty much rules out the plane being on fire on approach.
Regarding an engine failure - possible, but it's rare for engine failures to cause runway overruns

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: LH648
Posted 2012-12-29 05:52:50 and read 90275 times.

2 confirmed dead.

RIP.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: LH648
Posted 2012-12-29 05:55:10 and read 90525 times.

Police representative live on Russian news just told that 3 people are dead.

No pax onboard.

Incoming from Pardubice, Czech Republic (PED)

[Edited 2012-12-29 06:08:21 by SA7700]

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: JohnKrist
Posted 2012-12-29 05:58:16 and read 90069 times.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 33):
but it's rare for engine failures to cause runway overruns

Not really, overruns are rare altogether, but several of them have been caused by engine failures, or engine related issues like failing thrust reversers.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: aloges
Posted 2012-12-29 06:02:27 and read 90203 times.

   and hopefully, the death toll will not increase

This COULD be the approximate site of the crash, reconstructed from the approach path on flightradar24.com and the photo in reply #9.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: Gonzalo
Posted 2012-12-29 06:03:29 and read 89760 times.

Reuters says now 11 crew and no pax on board...

G.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: LH648
Posted 2012-12-29 06:04:06 and read 90105 times.

Officially confirmed 2 dead, 5 injured, 3 of them in very bad condition.

Hospital representative told that persons passed away are in pilot's uniform.

[Edited 2012-12-29 06:09:36 by SA7700]

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: B747forever
Posted 2012-12-29 06:26:23 and read 88306 times.

Quoting LH648 (Reply 40):
Hospital representative told that persons passed away are in pilot's uniform.




Looking at the picture in reply 9 I am not surprised that both pilots died in the crash. The whole nose section is disintegrated.

May they rest in peace.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2012-12-29 06:31:01 and read 88919 times.

Video of the crash site and aircraft here:

http://www.dagbladet.no/2012/12/29/nyheter/utenriks/flykrasj/25014856/

Video to the right in the article

[Edited 2012-12-29 06:31:43]


Another posting of the video here:

http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/verden/1.10855720


[Edited 2012-12-29 06:34:13]

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: okjet
Posted 2012-12-29 06:38:45 and read 88164 times.

Here is a picture of the aircraft departing from PED today.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Karel Bohac



[Edited 2012-12-29 23:18:55 by SA7700]

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: Gonzalo
Posted 2012-12-29 06:40:57 and read 87389 times.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 34):
The whole nose section is disintegrated.

I thought the same at first, but is not "disintegrated". Look at the end of the RT video linked by Mortyman in the previous reply, and you will see the cockpit and the first section of fuselage was ripped off the plane and is in front of the wreckage, resting on its left side, but still recognizable.
Confirmed is Reg number RA64047 according the picture in previous reply.

Rgds.
G.

[Edited 2012-12-29 06:43:05]

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: Cassi
Posted 2012-12-29 06:42:29 and read 87291 times.

Apparently this is the first fatal accident involving a TU-204. Red Wings is the largest operator of the type even after the loss of this aircraft (7).

This single accident will send the TU-204 to the bottom of the safety statistics tables, no doubt....

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2012-12-29 06:43:15 and read 87374 times.

RIP.

Quoting aloges (Reply 31):

It is 99% the motorway in the pics. At least it seems like they haven't crashed against any car... in the pictures it looks like the plane literaly ended over half of the motorway! And I guess a 4-lane motorway outside Moscow at 2 PM is not gonna be empty.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: brilondon
Posted 2012-12-29 07:02:09 and read 86659 times.

The reason for the few passengers is that according to this article:

December 29, 2012 14:23 | Tupolev 204 crashed Pardubice to Moscow Vnukovo to
Tupolev 204 Red Wings (registered RA-64047), which is only manned returning after unloading tourists in Pardubice back to Moscow, slid at 16:35 Moscow time when landing at Vnukovo airport from the runway, broke up and caught fire ( photo from today's departure from Pardubice ). On board the flight RWZ9268, which started at 11 am from the Czech Airport were 12 people. Unfortunately, three were killed, three others suffered serious injuries. On the site affect rescue, Vnukovo airport was temporarily closed after the crash, flights are diverted to other Moscow airports.

Praise god that very few people were involved.    to those who did not make it no matter how few or many, 1 person is too many.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: AirGabon
Posted 2012-12-29 07:07:42 and read 85683 times.

Quoting Cassi (Reply 38):
Apparently this is the first fatal accident involving a TU-204. Red Wings is the largest operator of the type even after the loss of this aircraft (7).

I thought that an Aviastar TU-204 already crashed last year while landing at DME, also without passengers (ferry flight from Egypt I guess)?

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: RussianJet
Posted 2012-12-29 07:11:47 and read 85529 times.

Oh. My. God.

BBC says 8 pax and 4 crew - is that likely? At least the low count on board has resulted in relatively few casualties, but still a horrifying scene.

Prayers to all involved.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: LXa332
Posted 2012-12-29 07:23:54 and read 85044 times.

RT says 4 dead now. As reported, both pilots are dead. The plane took tourists to PED and was returning without pax. Looks like there may have been a fire on the right wing.

"Media allege that Vnukovo firefighting cars were on repair so the first emergency crews appeared on the scene no earlier than 50 minutes after the blaze broke out."

http://rt.com/news/plane-vnukovo-airport-moscow-073/

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: kaitak
Posted 2012-12-29 07:28:22 and read 84368 times.

Quoting LXa332 (Reply 44):
"Media allege that Vnukovo firefighting cars were on repair so the first emergency crews appeared on the scene no earlier than 50 minutes after the blaze broke out."

Seems very unlikely; the airport would not be able to operate without functioning emergency vehicles.

Can't help wondering what the Russian transport ministry's response to this will be; usually, they tend to be quite draconian in punishing airlines after accidents.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: LXa332
Posted 2012-12-29 07:32:27 and read 84056 times.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 45):
Seems very unlikely; the airport would not be able to operate without functioning emergency vehicles.

Agreed. Surely the fire would have burned more than only the right wing in 50 minutes, no?

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: irshava
Posted 2012-12-29 07:37:03 and read 83920 times.

Quoting LXa332 (Reply 44):
"Media allege that Vnukovo firefighting cars were on repair so the first emergency crews appeared on the scene no earlier than 50 minutes after the blaze broke out."

Very typical explanation. I don't believe it at all. What kind of airport doesn't have at least one operating safety vehicle... if the airport was on fire it would take 50 minutes for the fire brigade to get there? I don't think so.


For years Red Wings management have been expressing their displeasure with the aircraft and how they haven't been able to turn a profit... perhaps a linkage of some sort?

R.I.P Victims

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: TupolevTu154
Posted 2012-12-29 07:44:45 and read 83468 times.

It must have been going very, very fast to get that far off the end of the runway, through what looks like a couple of walls and break into pieces like that. Where it has come to rest is 300 meters/1000ft past the very end of the runway surface. Usable runway distance is even further away.

Anybody have an idea of the METAR at the time of the incident? Perhaps a longer than anticipated float down the runway before touching down? An empty aircraft is obviously alot lighter so will handle differently (according to various pilots I've spoken to). Who knows, just throwing in my two kopeks.

Just as well it wasn't full of pax, but still very sad to hear of deaths.

[Edited 2012-12-29 07:51:10]

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: anfromme
Posted 2012-12-29 08:06:26 and read 81920 times.

Quoting JohnKrist (Reply 30):
Not really, overruns are rare altogether, but several of them have been caused by engine failures, or engine related issues like failing thrust reversers.

I'm aware of that, but I understood "engine failure" in the sense of "engine(s) completely non-operational".
And those are rare to cause overruns.
Overruns themselves aren't that rare, by the way - checking ASN, I found 5 such incidents in the period from October to December this year alone. (And ASN does not even list all runway excursions, only those with loss of life or substantial damage to the airplane.)

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: ltbewr
Posted 2012-12-29 08:27:23 and read 80759 times.

Could this been a failed 'go around' ? Perhaps the pilots misjudged their landing point and touched down too far down? What was the weather and visability at the time of the crash?

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: anfromme
Posted 2012-12-29 08:33:22 and read 80506 times.

Quoting AirGabon (Reply 42):
I thought that an Aviastar TU-204 already crashed last year while landing at DME, also without passengers (ferry flight from Egypt I guess)?

Correct, but nobody was killed in that crash.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20100322-1

Quoting LXa332 (Reply 44):
"Media allege that Vnukovo firefighting cars were on repair so the first emergency crews appeared on the scene no earlier than 50 minutes after the blaze broke out."

Other have already commented on the fact that all of the fire engines being repaired at the same time sounds dubious to say the least. Also, it's apparent from all the footage we've seen so far (see particularly the video and slideshow in Mortyman's last post) that there was no blaze that had 50 minutes to cause damage before firefighters arrived. In fact, I can't see any visible fire damage in the footage; having said that, I haven't seen any clear photos of the wings.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: flyPBA
Posted 2012-12-29 08:56:21 and read 79484 times.

from NBC

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: ushermittwoch
Posted 2012-12-29 08:58:44 and read 78420 times.

Looks lime people on the highway got lucky. Very lucky.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: B747forever
Posted 2012-12-29 09:01:11 and read 78433 times.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 37):
thought the same at first, but is not "disintegrated". Look at the end of the RT video linked by Mortyman in the previous reply, and you will see the cockpit and the first section of fuselage was ripped off the plane and is in front of the wreckage, resting on its left side, but still recognizable.

Yeah, I see now. But still, doesnt make it much more survivable.

Quoting okjet (Reply 36):
Here is a picture of the aircraft departing from PED today.http://www.planes.cz/cs/photo/115805...d-wings-rwz-wz-pardubice-ped-lkpd/

Eerie to look at that picture, knowing that the plane crashed only a few hours afterwards.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2012-12-29 09:10:26 and read 77824 times.

8 total people on board, I'm pretty sure all crew. At least 4 dead and the others very badly injured. Some reports are saying this was the second landing attempt and was making a forced landing. Maybe details on the initial go around and the pre-landing fire will come out.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: tp1040
Posted 2012-12-29 09:33:26 and read 76685 times.

From ASN...

It had been snowing prior to the accident and there was a significant cross wind with gusts up to 29 knots.
Runway 24 was closed since 19 December according to an airport Notam: "A5127/12 - RWY 06/24 CLSD FOR TKOF AND LDG OF ALL TYPES ACFT. 19 DEC 06:30 2012 UNTIL 31 MAR 23:59 2013. CREATED: 19 DEC 07:46 2012"

The weather reported at the time of the accident was:
UUWW 291230Z 28008G15MPS 9999 OVC024 M02/M07 Q1010 19410250 NOSIG
12:30 UTC / 16:30 LT: wind 280 degrees at 8 m/s (16 kts) gusting to 15 m/s (29 kts); overcast cloud deck at 2400 feet AGL ; Temperature: -2°C, Dewpoint -7°C

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2012-12-29 09:48:28 and read 76218 times.

Very sad news, RIP to those who didn't make it.   


The path along which the aircraft careered after leaving the runway would have made what was happening very evident to road users, which may well have saved many lives on the ground as motorists could take action quicker than if the aircraft was coming directly towards them.


Dan.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: soyuz
Posted 2012-12-29 10:24:40 and read 74638 times.

Czech media also reporting that the aircraft was attempting to land a second time. My sencerest condolances to the families of the deceased.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: Aesma
Posted 2012-12-29 11:33:47 and read 72059 times.

RIP to the victims. What does a "forced landing" mean ?

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: USAirways757
Posted 2012-12-29 12:36:49 and read 69928 times.

Quoting flyPBA (Reply 51):

Wow, RIP to those who perished and my condolences to the families.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: BEG2IAH
Posted 2012-12-29 13:01:12 and read 69211 times.

Quoting by738 (Reply 19):
Without knowing the details though before hand, it was all too predictable. I was predicting either a Russian airliner operating mid winter or a low cost Indonesian/Indian poor weather short haul.
Terrible.
Quoting by738 (Reply 26):
I meant Russian operated aircraft in general, and given there are so few 204s specifically in operation, to have one accident already is a pretty high hit rate.

I would save these types of assessments for some other occasion as people died in this accident and they deserve some respect. Also, if you are so good at predicting outcomes you shouldn't be losing time on this board but go work in the insurance industry or test your luck in the money market.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: flyingbird
Posted 2012-12-29 13:27:57 and read 68637 times.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 54):
Some reports are saying this was the second landing attempt and was making a forced landing. Maybe details on the initial go around and the pre-landing fire will come out.
Quoting soyuz (Reply 57):
Czech media also reporting that the aircraft was attempting to land a second time.

You can see clearly on Flightradar24 that there was only one landing attempt.

http://www.flightradar24.com/2012-12-29/12:24/RWZ9268

http://i50.tinypic.com/2wr4776.png

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2012-12-29 14:06:13 and read 68325 times.

Someone captured the crash from the inside of his car:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hEQdW6yS5o4

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2012-12-29 14:15:59 and read 67109 times.

I can see why the aircraft broke into large pieces. The roadway has to be 20-30 feet or so below the airport boundary area.

Falling at fairly low speed would create the effect of breaking off the cockpit, yet creating the crush damage at a steep angle of the aircraft nose under the cockpit windows shown in the shot of the crane picking up the nose section.

Reports of go around attempts, multiple landing attempts, aircraft on fire are all too common early after an accident.

As far as the fire department - given where the roadway is located and its below grade nature - I can easily see a lengthy delay getting to the crash scene. Fire trucks following the aircraft down the runway and down the over run area would have had to stop at the edge of the roadway and just watch.

The overpass was probably damaged, even if it was ever able to hold the weight of a fire truck. From Google Earth - it looks only like a structure to hold approach lights.

Fire trucks would have had to back track to the scrapping facility or what looks like an airport admin center to access the roadway - then fight past the stopped traffic to get to the crash scene. At least an extra mile, maybe as much as three miles.

So a delay of several minutes - longer than 10 minutes - in arriving on scene would not be out of the question.

But there is no way the aircraft burned out of control for 50 minutes - and remained largely whole and with the paint intact. It only takes a few minutes to start melting a cabin structure.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: Semaex
Posted 2012-12-29 14:17:25 and read 67080 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 62):

Thank you for this video.

Surviving such an impact seems incredibly unlikely, but I'm glad news report that most did. My greatest condolescence to the families of the departed. May your loved ones rest in peace.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: padster
Posted 2012-12-29 14:18:48 and read 66910 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 62):
Someone captured the crash from the inside of his car:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...yS5o4

That is chilling ! ... the car occupants were very very lucky there !!  Wow!

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: Skydrol
Posted 2012-12-29 14:21:59 and read 67032 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 62):
Someone captured the crash from the inside of his car:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...yS5o4

Dang, with all of the Russian car accident / road rage videos on YouTube uploaded from so many Russian drivers with dash cameras, but who would expect capturing an event like this live? And while semi-truck wheels have been known to fly through the air into cars, who would expect a flying airplane wheel to knock a car into the guardrail?

Sure there will be more dash camera videos to follow.

With the flying snow and debris, it does look like the airplane made impact beside the roadway before ending up there.

Pray for all affected.



LD4

[Edited 2012-12-29 14:29:51]

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2012-12-29 14:29:50 and read 66557 times.

Heck of a video - and a lucky driver/ passengers.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-12-29 14:38:07 and read 66106 times.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 58):
What does a "forced landing" mean ?

US FAA definitions:

Forced landing -- An immediate landing, on or off an airport, necessitated by the inability to continue further flight. A typical example of which is an airplane forced down by engine failure.

Precautionary landing -- A premeditated landing, on or off an airport, when further flight is possible but inadvisable. Examples of conditions that may call for a precautionary landing include deteriorating weather, being lost, fuel shortage, and gradually developing engine trouble.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: usxguy
Posted 2012-12-29 14:52:06 and read 66054 times.

I'm shocked by the video posted by Mortyman - with the rescuers opening the door to the plane - anyone notice the slide did not inflate? I thought most JAR/FAA requirements are that all door slides are armed prior to landing...

I was expecting to see the slide blow and knock all of those guys down, to be honest...

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: by738
Posted 2012-12-29 14:53:52 and read 65584 times.

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 60):
I would save these types of assessments for some other occasion

What other type of occasion would you suggest ? I don't you see you in your authority questioning any of the other posters speculation. If youre suggesting insensitivity, I would suggest you question the suitability of posting live video footage of those who perished rather than personal remarks

[Edited 2012-12-29 14:57:09]

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: horstroad
Posted 2012-12-29 14:59:16 and read 65370 times.

Quoting usxguy (Reply 69):
anyone notice the slide did not inflate? I thought most JAR/FAA requirements are that all door slides are armed prior to landing..

the slides are not intended to inflate when the door is opened from outside, because of

Quoting usxguy (Reply 69):

expecting to see the slide blow and knock all of those guys down

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: bogoss
Posted 2012-12-29 15:04:50 and read 65066 times.

I thought it was a crash from the forced landing on the motorway from the title of this thread, guess I went too far...

My sincere condolences to the families that have lost their beloved ones and best luck to the survivors.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: usxguy
Posted 2012-12-29 15:05:00 and read 65134 times.

Oh that's interesting.. In the States - some airlines anyway - ground staff opens and closes the door, and I at least am aware that on Boeings and the Embraer 170 family, even if you open the door from the outside the slide can still be blown. I've heard of a lot of agents getting hurt by opening a door from a jetway, with the slide then blowing IN the jetway...

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: ThomasCook
Posted 2012-12-29 15:07:37 and read 65113 times.

Quoting usxguy (Reply 69):
I'm shocked by the video posted by Mortyman - with the rescuers opening the door to the plane - anyone notice the slide did not inflate? I thought most JAR/FAA requirements are that all door slides are armed prior to landing...

I can't speak for this aircraft type in particular but generally, if an aircraft door is opened from the outside in the 'Armed' mode, it will automatically 'Disarm'. This isn't the case for the B737 due to its manual arming/disarming process but certainly true of most Boeing and Airbus types including the 747 and A380.

ThomasCook

[Edited 2012-12-29 15:08:34]

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: sulley
Posted 2012-12-29 15:11:53 and read 65983 times.

Here's a decent video (in Russian) from Vremya (Channel One - Russia) News:

http://www.1tv.ru/news/social/223201

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: FI642
Posted 2012-12-29 15:43:57 and read 64265 times.

The video is most disturbing.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2012-12-29 15:48:34 and read 64062 times.

According to the Russian newspaper Komsomolskaya Pravda the Tupolev factory was informed about possible problems with the brakes on this type of aircraft the day before the accident.

A similar Tu-204 aircraft from Red Wings had the same problem at the airport Novosibirsk in Siberia 20 December.

The Russian aviation agency sent a directive to the Tupolev factory on Friday, demanding that action were to be taken quickly , according to AP.


Norwegian article:

http://www.vg.no/nyheter/utenriks/artikkel.php?artid=10064014

Several pictures in this article ( use the arrows on the side of the picture to change picture )

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: scbriml
Posted 2012-12-29 15:58:03 and read 63501 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 62):

It's clear from that video that the plane was still travelling at considerable speed when it hit the road embankment.  Wow!

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: BEG2IAH
Posted 2012-12-29 16:00:06 and read 63489 times.

Quoting by738 (Reply 70):
I don't you see you in your authority questioning any of the other posters speculation. If youre suggesting insensitivity, I would suggest you question the suitability of posting live video footage of those who perished rather than personal remarks

It's one thing to post the video of the actual event vs. saying "told you so" as if you just knew yet another Russian/Indian/Indonesian airline/aircraft would crash. I did not necessarily suggest insensitivity but warned against clairvoyance.

Others are speculating what could be the cause of this accident as all of us are, but you are determined it was just a matter of time when this would happen. I see a big problem in the latter.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: PROSA
Posted 2012-12-29 16:32:54 and read 62666 times.

For legal reasons a high percentage of Russian vehicles are equipped with dashcams. As a result, it's perhaps not so surprising that a video of this sort exists.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: burnsie28
Posted 2012-12-29 16:50:46 and read 62050 times.

RIP to those who died.

But if I am reading this correctly, this relatively "modern" aircraft still has a Flight Engineer?

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: rampkontroler
Posted 2012-12-29 17:13:49 and read 61483 times.

A terrible tragedy lessened only slightly by the fact that it wasn't full of passengers. My heart goes out to all affected by this, and I hope the investigation answers all the questions raised as to why. One weird observation I had was the lack of any kind of noise from the driver of the car. I guess that shock can do strange things to you...I think I would have been a bit hysterical myself.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: TrnsWrld
Posted 2012-12-29 17:20:40 and read 61865 times.

Holy crap that video is kind of chilling to watch. That nose landing gear tire nailed that one car and tossed it into the guard rail. What a horrible situation and my thoughts with those that died. Sad to know at that exact moment in that video those pilots and apparently others died 

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: comair25
Posted 2012-12-29 17:40:53 and read 61254 times.

From the top 5 of the last 24 hours. Also a little bit creepy somebody actually caught her departing on her way to Moscow
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Red-Wings/Tupolev-Tu-204-100/2206717/L/

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: capri
Posted 2012-12-29 17:44:50 and read 61095 times.

So, from channel 1 video, he landed but couldn't stop and run off to motorway

there is a pic already of aircraft before leaving czech Republic
edited someone beat me by seconds and posted the pic already

[Edited 2012-12-29 17:45:53]

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: D L X
Posted 2012-12-29 17:50:34 and read 60873 times.

Damn. That driver runs into a row of seats! Amazing video. How fortunate this was an empty flight.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: F9animal
Posted 2012-12-29 17:51:06 and read 61026 times.

Wow! The dash cam video is incredible! The tire knocking that car into the sidewall, and the car with the dash cam running over the seats! From what I could tell, the seats were not occupied. This was indeed a high speed impact! I wonder what in the heck went wrong. So heart breaking, and so sad for those lost. Just too bad they could not get it stopped before final impact. That highway was no doubt at a slope that did not favor the forward section of the plane.

Also, was there no flight attendants in the rear of the aircraft? When the firefighters entered the back, I did not see anyone in the back jump seat.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: tp1040
Posted 2012-12-29 17:56:24 and read 60737 times.

Amazing that it was going that fast well over 2 miles/3km from the runway threshold.

More will come out in the investigation.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: F9animal
Posted 2012-12-29 18:11:47 and read 60393 times.

I am learning new things everyday. So, this has a three man cockpit crew? Do all of the 204's have a three man crew? I could have sworn the plane was modeled to be similar to a 757? Can anyone give me general comparisons of the 204 to the 757 stats?

Quoting tp1040 (Reply 90):
Amazing that it was going that fast well over 2 miles/3km from the runway threshold.

More will come out in the investigation.

Yes, and judging by that high speed impact, they did not appear to have the intentions of stopping in any way. Could they have been trying to do a go around? I mean, so much experience in that flight deck, tells me something went real bad. I estimate they hit doing well over 120 MPH.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2012-12-29 18:14:28 and read 60229 times.

Quoting tp1040 (Reply 90):

I measure it at about 300m.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: teneriffe77
Posted 2012-12-29 18:15:23 and read 60576 times.

The pic of the plane taking off on it's fatal flight reminds me of this pic from 1967 involving a TWA DC9-10 that collided w/ a Beechcraft 55 over Ohio that killed all 26 aboard both planes.
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Trans...d=a5997c4a9d808d3528e42244dc326564

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: tp1040
Posted 2012-12-29 18:19:53 and read 60158 times.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 92):

The landing one.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: Dizzy777
Posted 2012-12-29 18:20:50 and read 60245 times.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 91):
I am learning new things everyday. So, this has a three man cockpit crew? Do all of the 204's have a three man crew?

it has a Flightcrew of two, although original Aeroflot requirement specified a flight engineer.

further info:

http://www.airliners.net/aircraft-data/stats.main?id=377

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: F9animal
Posted 2012-12-29 18:23:40 and read 60298 times.

Quoting Dizzy777 (Reply 95):
it has a Flightcrew of two, although original Aeroflot requirement specified a flight engineer.

further info:

http://www.airliners.net/aircraft-da...d=377

Weird! I just got done looking at pictures of the flight deck on Red Wings Airlines 204, and it showed a total of 3 flight crew members. And it says there were a total of three crew members in the cockpit in this crash. Are all the 204's in Red Wings fleet 3 crews, or do some aircraft have 2?

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: Dizzy777
Posted 2012-12-29 18:38:42 and read 59720 times.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 96):
Are all the 204's in Red Wings fleet 3 crews, or do some aircraft have 2?

they could be using some former Aeroflot aircraft and had new ones delivered in the same config for commonality purposes, or there may just be a few.. it was mentioned in an article that the aircraft involved was a 2008 delivery

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2012-12-29 19:15:48 and read 58954 times.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 77):
about possible problems with the brakes
Quoting scbriml (Reply 78):
the plane was still travelling at considerable speed
Quoting F9animal (Reply 91):
I estimate they hit doing well over 120 MPH.

I might be wrong, but I'd put the speed closer to 60 than 120. It was slow enough to descend quickly down the steep embankment and strike the rising embankment of the roadway edge. Had it been going 120, it would have cleared the area between the higher airport run off and the roadway in my opinion.

In my life, I've seen two aircraft hit the ground at a relatively flat angle like this at speeds of about 110 and 140 kts. The video and the damage doesn't look to me like it was going that fast.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 89):
was there no flight attendants in the rear of the aircraft? When the firefighters entered the back, I did not see anyone in the back jump seat.

Why would the FA be in the rear of the aircraft? They were dead heading an empty aircraft back to the airport. Everyone would sit up front in the best seats. Faster to get on, and faster to get off the aircraft.

Also, it seems to me that the video of the fire fighters at the rear of the aircraft is quite a while after the crash, not an immediate rescue search.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: ThomasCook
Posted 2012-12-29 19:18:57 and read 58923 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 98):
Why would the FA be in the rear of the aircraft? They were dead heading an empty aircraft back to the airport. Everyone would sit up front in the best seats. Faster to get on, and faster to get off the aircraft.

I can't speak for this carrier but at my airline, I we are positioning an aircraft, all crew must be at their designated work position (door) for take-off and landing.

ThomasCook

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: RIXrat
Posted 2012-12-29 19:36:30 and read 58608 times.

The following is a fragment from an Associated Press, Moscow datelined story. It quotes a Russian official as saying "initial indications" indicate pilot error. Shouldn't he have waited a bit? The investigation is just getting started. Also, the AP has a little more on the brake and reverse thruster issue.

"A spokesman for Russia's top investigative agency, Vladimir Markin, said initial indications were that pilot error was the cause.

"The state news agency RIA Novosti cited an unidentified official at the Russian Aviation Agency as saying another Red Wings Tu-204 had gone off the runway at the international airport in Novosibirsk in Siberia on Dec. 20. The agency said that incident, in which no one was injured, was due to the failure of the plane's engines to go into reverse upon landing and that its brake system malfunctioned.

"On Friday, the Aviation Agency sent a directive to the Tupolev company's president calling for it to take urgent preventive measures."

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: PROSA
Posted 2012-12-29 19:40:21 and read 58433 times.

After striking a car, the nose wheel rolls down the highway for what must be a considerable distance.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: huxrules
Posted 2012-12-29 19:42:05 and read 58391 times.

It was going very fast in that video. I wonder if it was trying to do a go around after a brake malfunction.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: Bralo20
Posted 2012-12-29 19:42:15 and read 58570 times.

Quoting sulley (Reply 75):
Here's a decent video (in Russian) from Vremya (Channel One - Russia) News:

http://www.1tv.ru/news/social/223201

Cleanup starts quick in Russia. I've been to incidents (mostly fatal car crashes but also the Kalitta overrun in BRU) as a fire / police photographer where it took longer before they even started thinking about the clean up, let alone hire the cranes, transport, etc... to move the pieces.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2012-12-29 21:23:51 and read 56772 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 98):
I might be wrong, but I'd put the speed closer to 60 than 120.

I'd wager you are wrong - I wouldn't try to peg a specific speed but I'd be very surprised if that plane is not traveling faster than 60mph in the video. Size makes for a bit of an optical illusion (large objects look like they're moving more slowly), but I watch airliners take off and land across a road I travel on on a daily basis (I live about a mile from the end of the 4/22's at JFK and I commute past the airport) and this plane looks to be going about as fast as an average landing airliner *before* touchdown. I'm sure it wasn't quite - there had to be *some* loss of speed - but it is going very fast for a runway overrun. That nosewheel shoots straight out of there and across the road at probably 60mph just on its own, and that's *after* being slowed by the impact.

If the land was flat off the end of the runway, this thing might have traveled another 2,000 feet before stopping. It wasn't even close to being stopped when it ran off the end of the runway.

This had to be either a major brake failure or serious pilot error. I can't remember another overrun due to brake failure like this, although given what other people have said about a previous incident with the Tu-204, I guess you can't discount it. We have seen overruns similar in appearance to this one caused by pilot error, such as the TAM 3054 crash (high speed overrun in bad weather). Thankfully this plane did not have many people on board and there were no major obstacles off the end of the runway, nor did there seem to be a lot of fuel on board to ignite.

[Edited 2012-12-29 21:27:31]

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2012-12-29 21:53:06 and read 56405 times.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 91):

I am learning new things everyday. So, this has a three man cockpit crew? Do all of the 204's have a three man crew? I could have sworn the plane was modeled to be similar to a 757? Can anyone give me general comparisons of the 204 to the 757 stats?
Quoting F9animal (Reply 96):
Weird! I just got done looking at pictures of the flight deck on Red Wings Airlines 204, and it showed a total of 3 flight crew members. And it says there were a total of three crew members in the cockpit in this crash. Are all the 204's in Red Wings fleet 3 crews, or do some aircraft have 2?

Welcome to Russian union rules. Many airliners had to have a flight engineer AND a navigator until recently. Basically they take a two man design and remake it for three man operation. Ansett Australia asked for an F/E position on the 767, and Boeing made it a three man plane.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: L410Turbolet
Posted 2012-12-29 22:05:05 and read 56487 times.

Pictures of the doomed aircraft, taken just before its departure from PED:

   http://zkracovatko.cz/3SZYLr

   http://zkracovatko.cz/aoKuL9

arrival to PED yesterday morning (DEC 29): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJRkSt6Aq8w

[Edited 2012-12-29 22:06:43]

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: F9animal
Posted 2012-12-29 23:06:08 and read 55568 times.

Hang on a second!!! The picture you posted which I will copy and paste below. What is that coming from the center of the main gears? It looks like a fluid coming out, or something hanging on each main. Not familiar with this plane, so maybe I am alarmed for no reason?

http://www.planes.cz/cs/photo/115810...d-wings-rwz-wz-pardubice-ped-lkpd/

Also, do we know which aircraft it was that over ran with engines not reversing?

[Edited 2012-12-29 23:07:22]

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2012-12-29 23:20:03 and read 55249 times.

I find it amazing that this particular aircraft had been videotaped, photographed, and caught on a dash cam when it crashed! This is, what seems to me, like a weird coincidence. Not In the sense that the plane could have been sabotaged or fewred to crash, but just that how many times is a plane videotaped and photographed on the day it crashes and then caight on camera when it does!

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: AirPacific747
Posted 2012-12-30 00:17:19 and read 54214 times.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 106):

It seems to be normal practice in Russia to place a camera on your car. Maybe due to insurance policies?

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: BEG2IAH
Posted 2012-12-30 00:27:26 and read 54219 times.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 105):
Hang on a second!!! The picture you posted which I will copy and paste below. What is that coming from the center of the main gears? It looks like a fluid coming out, or something hanging on each main. Not familiar with this plane, so maybe I am alarmed for no reason?

Not sure. Both "streaks" look too symetric to be leaks of some sort. See how they start with wide cylindric shape, then there is a small bump half way down... Not sure what these could be. Here are a few photos where all of them have "it":


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © JetPix


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Roberto gorini


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Dmitriy Pichugin


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Yury Stepanov


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Alex Beltyukov - RuSpotters Team

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2012-12-30 00:35:02 and read 53930 times.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 105):
Also, do we know which aircraft it was that over ran with engines not reversing?

64049. This plane was 64047. I wouldn't put too much stock in the numbers being so close together; only 62 of these planes exist in total, and I'd guess Red Wings doesn't have *too* many of those 62, so the numbers are going to be fairly close no matter what. But it's not the same plane.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: mandala499
Posted 2012-12-30 00:50:04 and read 53657 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 96):
I might be wrong, but I'd put the speed closer to 60 than 120.

It is somewhere in between.
1. it maintained pitch as it leapt onto the embankment.
2. The trajectory was increasingly down (after taking to account the moving camera).
3. The distance it leapt and the altitude difference between where it leapt and where it hit the embankment, isn't too great either.

So, aircraft was below it's Vstall for that config, if faster, spoilers must have been deployed otherwise the trajectory would be flatter. The aerodynamic effect (nose-up tendency) of the spoiler deployment must have been present, or the elevators still had authority... since there was no nose-down tumbling movement. I don't know about this type, but in other aircraft this would have to be faster than 60kts, but probably around 80-90kts ish... if it's 120 or above... well... won't make sense.

Mandala499

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: L410Turbolet
Posted 2012-12-30 00:56:13 and read 53618 times.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 106):
This is, what seems to me, like a weird coincidence. Not In the sense that the plane could have been sabotaged or fewred to crash, but just that how many times is a plane videotaped and photographed on the day it crashes and then caight on camera when it does!

The explanation is actually quite prosaic: PED is a sleepy, provincial airport with mixed military/civilian ops. Passenger traffic during the winter consists almost exclusively of charter flights from Russia. Russian charter airlines often use PED as a cheaper alternative to PRG
End of the year is always a very busy period for PED since a lot of Russians choose PRG as a place to spend the New Year's Eve and their Christmas, see list of upcoming flights to PED: http://www.lkpd.info/expected.php
Therefore late December/early January is always a heyday for the local community of spotters. If I wanted to be cynical, I'd say that given the low traffic volume, literally ANYTHING that comes to PED - on weekends in particular - is caught on camera and/or video... multiple times: http://www.lkpd.info/search.php?airport=a1

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: AirlineCritic
Posted 2012-12-30 01:14:34 and read 53193 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 102):
This had to be either a major brake failure or serious pilot error.

They had a long runway, and the plane still did not decelerate much. And hundreds of meters of field to slow down some more. Maybe they had lost both reversers _and_ brakes. Or maybe they had decelerated but were now indeed speeding up and trying to go around, with the field perhaps slowing them down they did not get airborne.

Are there any common cause failures that would prevent reverser and brake from working? Aircraft in wrong configuration?

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: migair54
Posted 2012-12-30 01:27:28 and read 52847 times.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 105):
Hang on a second!!! The picture you posted which I will copy and paste below. What is that coming from the center of the main gears? It looks like a fluid coming out, or something hanging on each main. Not familiar with this plane, so maybe I am alarmed for no reason?

Can it be a ground contact for static electricity discharge?? like the ones are usually in the wings and tail??

Apparently one of the previous overruns of this plane type was confirmed as a brake malfunction in OVB, and Tupolev was warned about the situation, let´s see what´s going out here after the investigation.

It´s kind of weird that a plane with only 12 on board can´t be stopped in a long runway, Captain had more than 3.000 hours on the plane, so he was not new on it.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: AirlineCritic
Posted 2012-12-30 01:44:18 and read 52656 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 110):
So, aircraft was below it's Vstall for that config, if faster, spoilers must have been deployed otherwise the trajectory would be flatter. The aerodynamic effect (nose-up tendency) of the spoiler deployment must have been present, or the elevators still had authority... since there was no nose-down tumbling movement. I don't know about this type, but in other aircraft this would have to be faster than 60kts, but probably around 80-90kts ish... if it's 120 or above... well... won't make sense.

Interesting.

I had a look at the video again. I wanted to see if there's a way to measure the speed.

First, I attempted to measure the speed of the tire. At approximately 10.6s into the video, the tire is roughly at the right side of the road. At roughly 11.9 it hits the car. By the way, if you go frame by frame you'll see that the tire disappears into the car more or less completely upon impact. Crazy...

Anyway, there are four lanes, and the car that was hit was travelling on the rightmost one. Per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow%E2%80%93Saint_Petersburg_motorway, some highway lane width in Russia is 3.75 meters. Requirements and widths differ from highway to highway, I'll use a conservative number 3.5 meters. On US highways, shoulders should be 3.05 meters (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Highway_standards), but I'll assume 2 meters again to be conservative.

The car that was hit veered to the left before impact, at 10.8s its own tires are on the left lane marking. The car was small, so I'll assume there was 2 meters to the right lane marking.

This leaves 2+3*3.5+2 = 14.5 meters to the right side of the highway. Time was 1.3s, i.e., horizontal speed was 11.2 m/s, or about 22 knots. Not so fast. Of course this tells very little of the speed of the aircraft, though it was probably more than 22 knots.

I'm also trying to see if there's a way to measure the speed of the aircraft, but it is difficult. It appears only in the corner of the video from about 9.15s to 9.75s, before disappearing behind the embankment and then exploding into pieces after that on about 10.25s onwards. But I have no frame of reference for distances.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: aloges
Posted 2012-12-30 03:16:10 and read 50846 times.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 113):
Can it be a ground contact for static electricity discharge??

exactly my thoughts

You can see the same kind of ground strap on this Tu-154:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Arkadiy Kataev

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: Northstar80
Posted 2012-12-30 03:22:52 and read 50725 times.

Regarding the video, I am shocked to see the triple seats flying and then falling in the middle of the highway. I remember seeing somewhere that the seats are produced to almost never break loose from the aircraft during an accident.

Luckily the flight was empty and there were no people on those seats...

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: garpd
Posted 2012-12-30 03:44:57 and read 50365 times.

More footage, not of the crash but immediate aftermath: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=13e_1356848408

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: Hywel
Posted 2012-12-30 04:45:08 and read 49378 times.

Two more photos have emerged of the aircraft just before touchdown at VKO - literally 20-30 seconds before it overran the runway  

Link 1
Link 2

[Edited 2012-12-30 04:45:28]

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: David L
Posted 2012-12-30 05:10:47 and read 48265 times.

Quoting Hywel (Reply 118):
Two more photos have emerged of the aircraft just before touchdown at VKO

And one of the big questions is: where (and how) did it touch down? Hopefully it won't be long before that information comes to light.

Quoting Northstar80 (Reply 116):
Regarding the video, I am shocked to see the triple seats flying and then falling in the middle of the highway. I remember seeing somewhere that the seats are produced to almost never break loose from the aircraft during an accident.

True, but if the aircraft breaks up I think you can expect one or two rows of seats to become detached.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: AirlineCritic
Posted 2012-12-30 05:30:29 and read 48157 times.

Quoting Hywel (Reply 118):
Two more photos have emerged of the aircraft just before touchdown at VKO

In the second photo the aircraft appears to be pretty high still, maybe at 100 feet. And this is at a place that looks like a normal section of the runway, not something on or before the piano keys.

Looking at the map at https://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...182&spn=0.011732,0.030727&t=h&z=15... and there are aircraft and buildings behind the runway. If the photo is taken from west to east, it must still be within the first parts of the runway. If the photo is taken from east to west, maybe we are looking at the big plane parking area on the west side of the runway, which is a little bit further down the runway, maybe 1/3 or 1/2 of the runway already used at that point. Does anyone recognize the views from the photographs?

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: B747forever
Posted 2012-12-30 05:36:05 and read 47951 times.

Quoting Hywel (Reply 118):
Two more photos have emerged of the aircraft just before touchdown at VKO - literally 20-30 seconds before it overran the runway

Wow. Is there any other crash that has been so well documented? You have photos of the aircraft at the origin airport, video of it crashing and photos of it moments before touch down.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: horstroad
Posted 2012-12-30 05:43:27 and read 47896 times.

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 120):

I'd say it's about 30-50ft and the photo shows the first touchdown zone marker between the piano keys and the aiming point (photo was taken from north to south). doesn't look unusual to me.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: ushermittwoch
Posted 2012-12-30 06:08:42 and read 47410 times.

Quoting Hywel (Reply 118):
Two more photos have emerged of the aircraft just before touchdown at VKO - literally 20-30 seconds before it overran the runway  

Link 1
Link 2

No flames, thus one can once again dismiss most eye witness accounts as false.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: Bralo20
Posted 2012-12-30 06:15:22 and read 47509 times.

Belgian media are reporting that the incident was probably caused by a failing brake system and that the pilots tried everything to slow the plane down. There's no source in the report but it states that was determined after the first analyse of the FDR/CVR.

Belgian (French) source: http://www.rtbf.be/info/societe/deta...sur-le-crash-du-tupolev?id=7899764
UK source: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article3643467.ece

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: migair54
Posted 2012-12-30 06:35:18 and read 47105 times.

Quoting Bralo20 (Reply 124):
Belgian media are reporting that the incident was probably caused by a failing brake system and that the pilots tried everything to slow the plane down. There's no source in the report but it states that was determined after the first analyse of the FDR/CVR.

As I previously said, that was the cause of runway overrun in OVB not long ago, so i´m sure it will be check carefully, it was Ra-64049 in that occasion. This will cause a deep investigation and we will see some consequences soon.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: anfromme
Posted 2012-12-30 06:37:10 and read 47100 times.

Quoting Bralo20 (Reply 124):
Belgian media are reporting that the incident was probably caused by a failing brake system and that the pilots tried everything to slow the plane down. There's no source in the report but it states that was determined after the first analyse of the FDR/CVR.

Some German media are reporting the same thing, but I'd take such early reports of definite causes with more than a grain of salt, to be honest, as there was hardly time to do a proper analysis.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2012-12-30 06:57:17 and read 47112 times.

Quoting Northstar80 (Reply 116):
I remember seeing somewhere that the seats are produced to almost never break loose from the aircraft during an accident.

You are correct, but this aircraft fuselage broke cleanly in the passenger compartment area - so the floor to which the seats were attached came apart. The seat attachments probably didn't fail, the floor to which it is attached was destroyed.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: rj777
Posted 2012-12-30 07:01:16 and read 47043 times.

Looking at that 2nd photo of the approach/landing, it looked to me like he was coming in a little high.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: womenbeshoppin
Posted 2012-12-30 07:16:38 and read 46827 times.

Quoting rj777 (Reply 128):
Looking at that 2nd photo of the approach/landing, it looked to me like he was coming in a little high.

Give me a break. You are familiar with landing an aircraft at this particular moscow airport?

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: PROSA
Posted 2012-12-30 07:26:17 and read 46649 times.

Quoting garpd (Reply 117):
More footage, not of the crash but immediate aftermath: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=13e_1356848408

It looks like the highway is still open in the opposite direction and you even can see a car go by in the lanes where the debris lies.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: zanl188
Posted 2012-12-30 07:34:59 and read 46725 times.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 125):
As I previously said, that was the cause of runway overrun in OVB not long ago, so i´m sure it will be check carefully, it was Ra-64049 in that occasion. This will cause a deep investigation and we will see some consequences soon.

AvHerald is reporting it as well....

http://avherald.com/h?article=45ad34b5&opt=1


Sounds like the earlier overrun may have been due to lack of lube on a landing gear microswitch.

Would a failure of the air/ground mode switch on the TU-204 cause problems for brakes, thrust reversers, and spoilers?

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: Gonzalo
Posted 2012-12-30 07:51:58 and read 46501 times.

Ok, this seems probably one of the most extensively documented plane crashes ( except maybe for the ones made on purpose in the desert ) with many pictures of the plane at departing airport, final approach, and actual crash / aftermath.
But despite all this amazing ( and painful images ), I think all the efforts of some fellow members here to know the speeds, configuration and all, are very kind, but useless. We have pretty much undamaged the section where the CVR and FDR are located, and should be very precise information recorded, and although the *real numbers* will not be available for the public in a long time, some day we should have access to them.

G.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2012-12-30 09:05:42 and read 45725 times.

Quoting David L (Reply 119):
And one of the big questions is: where (and how) did it touch down? Hopefully it won't be long before that information comes to light.

It has already come to light: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news...nding/story-fn3dxix6-1226545506612

I don't vouch for the accuracy of the conclusion that "bad brakes" were to blame, but the relevant quote to your question is "The plane touched down in the proper landing area but for some reason was unable to stop on the strip" according to Russian authorities.

Here's an earlier story with a headline that reaches an entirely different conclusion, but it includes the second part of that same quote: http://www.euronews.com/2012/12/30/i...pilot-error-for-russian-jet-crash/

For those wondering how fast the plane was going, there's not an exact number given but the same guy says "It then careered at high speed and crashed into a radar beacon which it destroyed and then kept on going….”

So it was not a low speed overrun, it was a high speed overrun after touching down in the proper landing area. It used probably 6,000-7,000 feet of runway, traveled another 1,000 feet or so off the end of the runway and hit this embankment still at high speed. Something is very wrong there.

I realize there was an earlier incident with some sort of brake failure in the Tu-204 but a) it seems like the fix was not that difficult, and should have been done already, and b) I'd just find it incredibly coincidental that we'd have no Tu-204 incidents like this for several years, then suddenly have two identical ones in about a week, one of them fatal. It's possible, but it seems more likely that there were other factors involved, or that the cause is just completely different.

I keep thinking back to the TAM crash, which was a mystery for a long time and turned out to ultimately be a combination of pilot action, a technical fault and software design; the plane's auto-throttle and auto-spoiler software wasn't designed to act in the way the pilots expected in a situation with one reverser out (though it was documented and trained for, so ultimately it was pilot error). It wouldn't surprise me to see a combination of multiple factors here as well when all is said and done. I wouldn't put much stock in any of the conclusions being reached in the media already.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: tp1040
Posted 2012-12-30 09:19:26 and read 45470 times.

From the first link above.

"He [Lebedev-Red Wings owner] also suggested that traffic controllers' initial refusal to authorise landing - requiring the plane to complete several circles over Vnukovo in bad weather - may have been a contributing factor."



Hasn't is been refuted that the plane circled?

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: manny
Posted 2012-12-30 09:21:41 and read 45651 times.

Here is Youtube footage of Moscow plane crash:

http://youtu.be/In607kR4HpQ

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2012-12-30 09:24:00 and read 45371 times.

Quoting tp1040 (Reply 134):
Hasn't is been refuted that the plane circled?

I've seen radar tracks that certainly suggest it has been. I think one was posted in this thread.

He's the owner of the airline, though, not an investigator. I'm sure he has more info than any of us do but on the other hand, he's probably not a technical guy and he's not really bound by any sort of rules with regard to the accuracy of anything he says. I put more stock in the quote I actually posted, which come from someone in the air transport ministry.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: shufflemoomin
Posted 2012-12-30 10:25:47 and read 44561 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 62):

Someone captured the crash from the inside of his car:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...yS5o4

Wait, in that video, am I seeing things or did the car in front take full brunt of an aircraft wheel into the side of the vehicle and just keep driving!? I can't imagine what one of those wheels must weigh.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: F9animal
Posted 2012-12-30 10:27:59 and read 44491 times.

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 114):
This leaves 2+3*3.5+2 = 14.5 meters to the right side of the highway. Time was 1.3s, i.e., horizontal speed was 11.2 m/s, or about 22 knots. Not so fast. Of course this tells very little of the speed of the aircraft, though it was probably more than 22 knots.

The aircraft tire hit the top of that building before hitting the car. I suspect that would have slowed the speed down quite a bit.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 110):
It is somewhere in between.
1. it maintained pitch as it leapt onto the embankment.
2. The trajectory was increasingly down (after taking to account the moving camera).
3. The distance it leapt and the altitude difference between where it leapt and where it hit the embankment, isn't too great either.

I suspect it was well above 60. Just based on the incredible amount of earth being thrown from the side of the freeway, and how the cockpit was sheared that way says alot. Also, the injuries being reported would I think be caused by a much higher speed.

Quoting Bralo20 (Reply 124):
Belgian media are reporting that the incident was probably caused by a failing brake system and that the pilots tried everything to slow the plane down. There's no source in the report but it states that was determined after the first analyse of the FDR/CVR.

This could very well be good information. I am sure the moment they got the FDR/CVR out, it was being analyzed almost immediately. I hope they find out and share what they learn as it happens!

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 108):
Not sure. Both "streaks" look too symetric to be leaks of some sort. See how they start with wide cylindric shape, then there is a small bump half way down... Not sure what these could be. Here are a few photos where all of them have "it":

Thanks for that!

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: F9animal
Posted 2012-12-30 11:49:33 and read 41385 times.

Sadly, a 5th crewmember has died. They have released pics of those who died on Red Wings Twitter and facebook pages.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-12-30 11:51:51 and read 41243 times.

I read a report in the paper this morning that says the EU may ban flights on a TU-204 until this breaks issue is worked out. I ran a search on Google and couldn't find anything along those lines. Anyone have more confident reports?

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 62):
Someone captured the crash from the inside of his car:
Quoting Skydrol (Reply 66):
Dang, with all of the Russian car accident / road rage videos on YouTube uploaded from so many Russian drivers with dash cameras, but who would expect capturing an event like this live? And while semi-truck wheels have been known to fly through the air into cars, who would expect a flying airplane wheel to knock a car into the guardrail?

Out of all of the Russian dash-cam videos, this is the most haunting.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: affirmative
Posted 2012-12-30 13:12:31 and read 38801 times.

Considering the plane was empty and wind was not too bad the approach speed must have been slightly lower than normal. Looking at the pictures that are allegedly from the moments before touchdown they seem to be using full or at least close to full flaps which indicates a normal approach. I know nothing about surface abrasion at the time but being an international airport one would expect fair grip with those temperatures. Even with no brakes and no reversers but working spoilers what retardation would be expected? My guessing would put an approach speed of maybe 120-125kt, spoiler deployment would lose maybe 25-30kt and friction 10kt which would put the final speed at about 80-90kt (= more than 100mph)..

What surprises me is why they didn't abort and went around..

It will be interesting to read what the report will uncover..

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2012-12-30 13:25:18 and read 38609 times.

Quoting Hywel (Reply 118):

Taking the pics from the links, and using Google translate to read the text, (as well as expected), they compare the height of the 204 to a tu134 at approximately the same position along the runway.

It does appear that the 204 did land long.

http://russianplanes.net/images/to95000/094177.jpg

http://russianplanes.net/images/to94000/093669.jpg

http://russianplanes.net/images/to95000/094178.jpg

Here is what I assume is the comparison between where the 134 was at 5m height and the 204 at approx the same height.

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5625/166530881.1/0_b66eb_e6a94bf_XXL

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: bueb0g
Posted 2012-12-30 13:30:35 and read 38344 times.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 144):
It does appear that the 204 did land long.

No it doesn't. That last picture you showed there is taken from the threshold, basically - those are the first piano keys in the frame. They landed in the TDZ, this has been confirmed by MAK from the FDR readout.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-12-30 13:42:49 and read 38215 times.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 107):
Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 106):

It seems to be normal practice in Russia to place a camera on your car. Maybe due to insurance policies?

A couple of recent items on "dashcams" in Russia.
http://www.rferl.org/content/dash-ca...nd-scams-car-crashes/24780355.html
http://www.animalnewyork.com/2012/russian-dashcam/

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2012-12-30 13:53:45 and read 37844 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 133):
For those wondering how fast the plane was going,

We were speaking about the speed of the aircraft at the time of the final impact with the uphill embankment on the edge of the roadway. The aircraft is shown in the video as an intact fuselage with realtively little nose damage until it makes that final hit.

From dash cam video - RedWings aircraft just before impact


I'm not sure how fast the plane was moving when it left the end of the runway - which according to Google Earth is 870 ft from the piano keys on the end of the runway to the final impact poiint. The structure we see over the highway holds the approach lights for a landing from the south over the roadway.

There is about 120-140 feet distance according to Google Earth from the airport property at the height of the approach lights to the edge of the structure holding the lights. The aircraft dropped several feet in height in that short distance, however contributing to the downward path of the aircraft, the ground between the runway end and the roadway slopes down about 10 or 15 feet in elevation in the approx 750 feet of distance.

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 137):
Wait, in that video, am I seeing things or did the car in front take full brunt of an aircraft wheel into the side of the vehicle and just keep driving!?

The car is hit by the nose gear and slams into inside guardrail and begins to slow quickly. It doesn't keep going. The car slows as it crosses roadway to come to a stop against the guard rail against the outside of the roadway right at the end of the video. The car with the camera slows more quickly because it ran over a set of seats, probably puncturing several of the tires.

[Edited 2012-12-30 13:56:32]

[Edited 2012-12-30 14:40:58]

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: F9animal
Posted 2012-12-30 14:21:38 and read 37068 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 145):

Lucky for that car that the wheel hit the top of that structure first! I suspect that slowed the tire quite a bit!

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2012-12-30 14:26:00 and read 37156 times.

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 143):

Here is a link to a video of a 204, (perhaps the same one), landing in summer at the airport. If you look at the 48 second point, you will see the plane at the same position along the runway as in the second 204 pic.

In the pic he is higher and has yet to flare. Since we don't know his speed at the time, it would be difficult to tell exactly where he touched down.


http://russianplanes.net/id94179

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: a380heavy
Posted 2012-12-30 15:38:57 and read 35477 times.

Firstly let me pass on my sincere condolences to the families of those who perished in this tragic accident.

It's safe to day that aircraft accidents take place when there are usually a number of contributing factors.

In the second photo of the Redwings 204 landing the aircraft seems to be in a slight nose down attitude with the piano keys in view so it is reasonable to assume it did land long.

The aircraft is still yet to flare so I assume touchdown was some way beyond the ideal point. If the crew only managed a shallow angle during the flare there wouldn't have been much aerodynamic braking to bleed off speed. This assumption would lead to excess speed upon landing with a reduced distance available for the deceleration.

It was reported that the weather conditions were light snow at the time of landing which I can't imagine would be too demanding for a captain and first officer with a combined 25,000 hours under their belts - especially pilots who are used to the Russian climate and who are in command of a modern airliner.

Were the thrust reversers operable? If so, how much wheel braking would be required on this length of runway - assuming touchdown was not long and the aircraft wasn't
travelling too fast at the point of landing?

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: flood
Posted 2012-12-30 15:40:18 and read 35531 times.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 147):
Here is a link to a video of a 204, (perhaps the same one), landing in summer at the airport. If you look at the 48 second point, you will see the plane at the same position along the runway as in the second 204 pic.


Interesting comparison, thanks.

http://russianplanes.net/images/to95000/094178.jpg

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: torontofly
Posted 2012-12-30 15:43:05 and read 35596 times.

Hi everyone!

This is my first post on this forum, although I follow it for several years. I just want to contribute to the discussion that helps identify the causes of this accident. I attempted to compare two landings.

Picture 1 is taken from http://russianplanes.net/ID94178
Picture 2 is taken from (approx 15 sec) http://russianplanes.net/id94179

And this is how these two landings look when you put them together



You can see the difference in pitch angle and altitude at the same location.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2012-12-30 16:25:34 and read 34747 times.

Brake malfunction on dual (I guess) independent systems with no malfunction indications to the crew? I'm not saying it didn't happen, but if it did wouldn't that indicate some rather severe design and/or maintenance deficiencies?

Quoting torontofly (Reply 150):
You can see the difference in pitch angle and altitude at the same location.

Welcome to A.nut!

The altitude difference is clear of course. However the pitch attitude difference is due to the fact that the plane in the right hand shot is flaring while the one on the left has not started the flare (too high).

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: torontofly
Posted 2012-12-30 16:55:51 and read 34597 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 151):
Welcome to A.nut!


Thanks a lot!

To me, it looks like that thrust reversers and ground spoilers were deployed approximately at the middle of RWY length. The remaining distance (approx. 1500m) was enough to complete landing safely.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: tp1040
Posted 2012-12-30 17:03:25 and read 34409 times.

Comparing other photos of other flights to this one can make for a long day. Camera angles, lens, position, height can trick the eye. In the end, it doesn't share much real information to this accident.

As stated, the pilot touched down in the correct location and still was traveling at a substantial speed when he left the runway.

What happened at touchdown and beyond will be revealed as more information is released.

All sorts of possibilities involving different systems. But not stopping in 2 miles indicates a serious failure of systems designed to slow down the aircraft.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: horstroad
Posted 2012-12-30 17:21:05 and read 34114 times.

Quoting torontofly (Reply 150):
You can see the difference in pitch angle and altitude at the same location.

the aircraft is about 50ft above the first landing zone marker before the aiming point. with a 3° glide path and considering the flare, the aircraft should touch down well between the first and second landing zone marker behind the aiming point, which should give enough runway (about 8000ft of paved surface left)

though the pich angle seems a bit nose down. maybe he was too fast?

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: awthompson
Posted 2012-12-30 17:22:19 and read 34133 times.

Despite what some officials have allegedly stated, it does appear (in my opinion - which I am entitled to hold and express) that this accident aircraft landed longer than ideal. If definitely within the touchdown zone, it was certainly at or near the end of it and we know what is said about the usefulness of runway behind you. Add any other problem or distraction and you have an accident starting to take shape.

The piano keys by the way are NOT in view in the second photo - I can only see touchdown zone markers with the aircraft yet to flare. Remember also that this aircraft is empty/light and so likely drifted quite some distance before finally touching down, if not bouncing a time or two. Most of us pilots know how hard it is to get a light/empty aircraft to 'settle' on landing. (For what it is worth, flight radar show 143 knots on late final.)

Why also are some officials already alleging pilot error? There is little else they could have seen to make them give such a prognosis so early.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: Cactus105
Posted 2012-12-30 18:15:06 and read 33606 times.

Quoting horstroad (Reply 154):
maybe he was too fast?

  
I REALLY hate to speculate, but that was my first thought upon seeing the photo. Only A handful of crew on board would make for a light airplane though, so a "bit fast" may be correct for the weight of the aircraft during this particular landing, but I am sure he wasn't much faster than a normal approach with an aircraft full of people.

Again, like I said, I hate to speculate, and I also do not this aircraft at all. For example, the airbus 320 series has a very high angle of attack, even prior to flare (especially on the 321, and when companies opt to use flap settings other than FULL), whereas other aircraft don't have such a big angle. Approach angle, whether it be before or during flare, has everything to do with weight and therefore approach speed..

Now, I am not wiling to speculate on whether or not he landed hot, or long, because both of those things happen regularly, all the time, with all aircraft types. But with this aircraft, I think it is safe to say that Regardless of touchdown point, or speed (unless Ridiculously fast or long), they should have been able to stop on this runway with such a light a/c. Assuming all systems were functioning... We will have to wait and see what went on. You don't know unless you were there...

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: btblue
Posted 2012-12-30 19:28:32 and read 32644 times.

I'm looking at the pictures and there seems to be a fair amount of blurring of planes in the background (compared to the picture of the TU134)... I'm thinking he's going at a considerable speed.

Seeing as this was a positioning flight after dropping tourists off, feasible that an error was made by the pilot in that he calculated for a heavier landing (having landed previously with pax) therefore requiring more thrust when in fact the aircraft was empty of PAX? This would result in higher speed, greater height above the threshold and the reason he has full flaps?

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2012-12-30 22:33:34 and read 31064 times.

Quoting btblue (Reply 157):
there seems to be a fair amount of blurring of planes in the background

Darker day (slower shutter speed), smaller sensor, different lens, who knows. You can't judge anything by comparing pictures taken in uncontrolled conditions like this. Lots of things can blur a background in one photo and not in another.

This is a 10,040 foot runway. The altitude in the shot of the accident flight appears to be about 20-30 feet. Assuming a final descent of 250fpm, it would take about 5 seconds to touch down from the photo taken of this accident. Assuming a landing speed of around 120 knots, that would eat up about 1,000 feet of runway. That's not insignificant but again, that's 1,000 feet of a 10,040 foot runway. And this plane was still traveling at a "high speed" when it hit the embankment, which is almost 1,000 feet beyond the end of that 10,040 foot runway. You're still talking about a plane going what appears by the *low* estimates here to be going about 60 knots after traveling about 1 1/2 miles on the ground.

And when you talk about potential landing speeds with an empty plane, don't forget about *braking* speeds with an empty plane. It takes a lot less runway to brake an empty plane than a full one, yet still this one ran off at high speed.

I think it's difficult to escape the conclusion that for whatever reason, this plane didn't brake properly after landing. It does not appear to be a case of a plane landing long, braking hard and just running out of runway.

Going from that to saying it was "bad brakes" as the media has done is a jump in logic that I'm not prepared to make yet, without other evidence. But from what I can see so far, the evidence we do have points to it being a fairly normal touchdown - maybe not 100% ideal, but not dangerously long (this according to the Russian authorities themselves) - followed by a lack of braking. If that's the case, then the question is just technical fault or action of the pilots. But I don't think you look at some other incident and assume it must automatically be the same situation here - I would think being aware of the previous braking problem would actually make it *less* likely to happen again right now, unless there was something about the fix itself that was either conceived or applied improperly. But it could be something completely unrelated.

I just don't really see any evidence for the "landing long" theory - I don't think these photos show what some seem to think they do.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: F9animal
Posted 2012-12-30 22:45:07 and read 31018 times.

The dash cam video tells me that the plane was going waaaay too fast, even if it touched down halfway down the runway. Its just such a violent impact. I just could not imagine what was going on in the final seconds. Not to mention, this flight crew was incredibly experienced. It would be a real shocker to me if it was due to a late touchdown, and 100% pilot error. I have a suspicion that the airplane did not respond to flight crew maneuvers.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: AirlineCritic
Posted 2012-12-30 23:14:21 and read 30862 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 158):
This is a 10,040 foot runway. The altitude in the shot of the accident flight appears to be about 20-30 feet. Assuming a final descent of 250fpm, it would take about 5 seconds to touch down from the photo taken of this accident. Assuming a landing speed of around 120 knots, that would eat up about 1,000 feet of runway. That's not insignificant but again, that's 1,000 feet of a 10,040 foot runway. And this plane was still traveling at a "high speed" when it hit the embankment, which is almost 1,000 feet beyond the end of that 10,040 foot runway. You're still talking about a plane going what appears by the *low* estimates here to be going about 60 knots after traveling about 1 1/2 miles on the ground.

  

Perhaps a slightly long/fast landing, followed by the crew's decision to go around, but with something going wrong? Flaps, reversers, power settings, control surfaces, brakes, ... maybe the pilots just forgot to set something. Is Tu-204 equally automated wrt. go around tasks as modern western aircraft are? What things could you in theory forget to set as a pilot, if you were going around in a Tu-204?

Also, a mechanical problem may have occurred. Say, brakes getting stuck, and the aircraft not getting enough speed to lift-off again? Reminds me of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Lokomotiv_Yaroslavl_air_disaster

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2012-12-30 23:31:50 and read 30746 times.

Thanks to the RussianPlanes photographers for their pics and links.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 158):
I just don't really see any evidence for the "landing long" theory - I don't think these photos show what some seem to think they do.

As with most accidents, it's a chain of events which lead to the accident itself, and everything that happens before that point can compound the effects of the accident.

A little too fast and a little too long added to a slippery runway and sub par brakes, maybe a problem with planting the plane on the mains to get the ground spoilers and reverse thrusters working.

I'm not saying that landing long and or fast was the primary cause of the accident, (or any of the other possible causes happened), but if you look at how much trouble the 204 in the video had staying planted, it could have exacerbated the effects of the accident...and even a little extra energy at impact can make a difference in survivability.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: KC135Hydraulics
Posted 2012-12-31 00:39:25 and read 30238 times.

Is there a video somewhere in this thread of the entire landing run? I saw the dash cam video... absolutely chilling. It's hard to grasp that people were dying as that plane was crashing into that embankment. Truly sad.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: F9animal
Posted 2012-12-31 01:16:59 and read 29920 times.

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 162):
Is there a video somewhere in this thread of the entire landing run? I saw the dash cam video... absolutely chilling. It's hard to grasp that people were dying as that plane was crashing into that embankment. Truly sad.

No, nothing showing the entire landing. But... With as many cameras that airports have nowadays, I would not be surprised in coming days or weeks that footage is found. Hopefully there was a CCTV camera pointed in the right place at the right time and captured the landing.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: awthompson
Posted 2012-12-31 03:56:54 and read 28676 times.

With only flight deck and cabin crew on board, hence few duties for cabin crew, I will be interested to find out how many persons were on the flight deck and whether it was fully sterile during the landing phase of the flight.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: smws
Posted 2012-12-31 04:05:33 and read 28731 times.

Information trickling in. It wasn't an issue with the runway, at least:

http://en.ria.ru/russia/20121231/178..._Runway_Not_a_Factor_in_Fatal.html

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: Captainmeeerkat
Posted 2012-12-31 11:11:35 and read 25721 times.

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=45b4b3cb&opt=0

From the AvHerald:

"On Dec 31st 2012 Rosaviatsia released a modification to aircraft operations manual requiring flight crew to apply reverse thrust only if the engine is operating (stating application of reverse thrust is prohibited on a malfunctioning engine). To apply reverse thrust the engine should be pulled to idle for 1-2 seconds, then command reverse thrust at minimum thrust, verify yellow "thrust reverser unlocked" followed by green "REV" indications appear, only then apply high reverse thrust. Rosaviatsia reported there have been a number of cases where the green "REV" indication did not appear (editorial note: there have been rumours since the Dec 20th overrun, that the crew had applied reverse thrust, the reverser however had not opened and at least one of the engine was delivering full forward thrust instead)."

A very interesting modification to be made to the operations manual - perhaps the FDR has told them something already?

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2012-12-31 11:17:26 and read 25587 times.

Quoting Captainmeeerkat (Reply 166):
A very interesting modification to be made to the operations manual - perhaps the FDR has told them something already?

Seems plausible... it's not uncommon for early procedural changes to be made during investigations if there's a clear and present problem. Similar recommendations were made not long after the TAM 3054 crash, I recall (they may have been more like "reiterations" of existing procedures, but they gave a big hint as to where the investigation was going).

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: zanl188
Posted 2012-12-31 11:40:32 and read 25394 times.

Quoting Captainmeeerkat (Reply 166):
A very interesting modification to be made to the operations manual - perhaps the FDR has told them something already?

More likely a result of the Dec 20th overrun.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: F9animal
Posted 2012-12-31 14:49:28 and read 24554 times.

Isnt that a long procedure to follow? I mean, by the time the crew determines a failure of thrust reverse, could time be a critical factor? What do you do then? Firewall the throttle and hope you have enough room? And ice I would think could play a very nasty role if its on the runway. I am obviously not a pilot, so it would be great to hear what fellow pilots do in a situation like this. So here is my 31 hours of flight time specialist thoughts...Wheels touch, put throttles in reverse. No yellow, no green.. I just spent 3 seconds minimum looking at my gauges. I apply full thrust to go around. Now... Does it take a few seconds for the throttle to respond to my imput, or a few seconds for my thrust to increase? It just seems like time would not be good if I only have say 6, 000 feet of runway left!!

Again.. Not a pilot, so I dont want a bashing!  

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: ajd1992
Posted 2012-12-31 15:26:01 and read 24368 times.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 169):
It just seems like time would not be good if I only have say 6, 000 feet of runway left!!

6000 feet of runway is a lot of runway - large aircraft similar in size to the TU-204 fly out of airports like that all the time. I doubt it was a problem until it ended up being mostly behind them, although looking at the dashcam video (and I have several times being a dashcammer myself) the speed it was doing, I'm surprised it didn't go around earlier.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: CX Flyboy
Posted 2012-12-31 16:43:08 and read 24015 times.

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 170):
Quoting F9animal (Reply 169):
It just seems like time would not be good if I only have say 6, 000 feet of runway left!!

6000 feet of runway is a lot of runway - large aircraft similar in size to the TU-204 fly out of airports like that all the time. I doubt it was a problem until it ended up being mostly behind them, although looking at the dashcam video (and I have several times being a dashcammer myself) the speed it was doing, I'm surprised it didn't go around earlier.

Actually 6000ft is not that much runway for a plane flying the speeds of a Tu-204 on finals. Float a little bit in the flare and you will very quickly find that you do not have much runway left although at least being light weight they would have needed less runway than in normal revenue use.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: cbphoto
Posted 2012-12-31 16:49:28 and read 23957 times.

Quoting Captainmeeerkat (Reply 166):
A very interesting modification to be made to the operations manual - perhaps the FDR has told them something already?

Does anyone know how the reverser on these engines work? Could it be an issue with the reversing mechanism where it failed and the engine spooled up, but instead of providing reverse thrust, it was producing forward thrust?

Different aircraft and engine design, but a NW DC-9 had a hydraulic issue in MSP where the aircraft lost all of the brakes and the Captain engaged the reverse thrust, except the reverser doors were hydraulically actuated as well, and ended up fire walling the engines in full forward thrust, and hit an A319 that had just pushed from the gate next to it!

Curious to know if it possible on the TU-204 engines if something like that is possible?

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: tp1040
Posted 2012-12-31 17:13:52 and read 23920 times.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 171):
Actually 6000ft is not that much runway for a plane flying the speeds of a Tu-204 on finals. Float a little bit in the flare and you will very quickly find that you do not have much runway left although at least being light weight they would have needed less runway than in normal revenue use.

The runway is stated at 10,039 feet. The total runway with over run etc., is 2 miles long. 6000 ft would be the middle of the runway.

It has been stated that he touched down within the TDZ. At the worst, that would give him approximately 7,000 for roll out. Plus over run.

Something did not slow him down.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: horstroad
Posted 2012-12-31 20:25:54 and read 23340 times.

as far as I know reverse thrust isn't considered in minimum runway length calculations. so even without T/R the plane should be able to stop on the runway.

I'm not a pilot, so my question is, when I'm intending to deploy the thrust reversers but the engine provides full foreward thrust,do I notice this (I'm pretty sure I should)? and how much does it impact the required landing distance if I set the engines to idle as soon as I notice the error? would it be enough to explain the very high speet 1000ft beyond the threshold?

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: mandala499
Posted 2012-12-31 21:03:06 and read 23295 times.

Quoting btblue (Reply 157):
I'm looking at the pictures and there seems to be a fair amount of blurring of planes in the background (compared to the picture of the TU134)... I'm thinking he's going at a considerable speed.

Lower light levels, slower camera shutter speed, on a moving object... result... either:
1. Blurred object of focus and sharp background; or
2. Sharp object of focus and blurred background; or
3. Everything's blurred.   

Quoting btblue (Reply 157):
Seeing as this was a positioning flight after dropping tourists off, feasible that an error was made by the pilot in that he calculated for a heavier landing (having landed previously with pax) therefore requiring more thrust when in fact the aircraft was empty of PAX? This would result in higher speed, greater height above the threshold and the reason he has full flaps?

They would have calculated the approach and landing speeds (including go-around speed) based on their current weight slightly prior to the approach or expected weight on the approach.
On the full flaps issue... the aircraft probably has 1 or 2 flaps setting allowed for use in an all-engine landing... Full flap may result in a more pronounced pitch down, but also gives more drag which allows the engines to run at a higher thrust setting, which results in a more responsive go-around/

Quoting F9animal (Reply 169):
Isnt that a long procedure to follow?

Well, the normal procedure is, check spoilers deployed, reversers unlocked, and brakes (manual or auto)... and yes, spoilers first, then unlock reversers... Yes, this new procedure is potentially cumbersome... but, the landing calculations can be done without reversers and more wheelbrakes... by the standard logic anyways... touchdown, spoilers, apply manual wheelbrakes (or check autobrakes), and not even touching the reversers... are perfectly acceptable.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 169):
I mean, by the time the crew determines a failure of thrust reverse, could time be a critical factor? What do you do then? Firewall the throttle and hope you have enough room? And ice I would think could play a very nasty role if its on the runway.

No... once you have commanded reversers and you don't get reverser deployment, general logic would be, keep it at idle and continue without the reverser... Why? Because there is no guarantee that the reversers had not unlocked, the last thing you want is firewall the throttles, get airborne, and then get a "reverser deployed" light on one or both engines. You'd be in deep doo doo!
That warning of not going around once thrust reverser has been commanded (regardless of deployment), exists in almost almost every airliner I've seen the manuals for (300/310, 320fam, 330, 340, 737allgens, 747, 757, 767, 777, 787, MD80, a couple of Bombardiers and Embraers too)... so such a logic isn't and should't be limited to the Tu-204.

---
Now, can anyone calculate the speed of the car that has the dashcam? I think from there we can calculate the aircraft speed just prior to impact... (google earth, check the lane markings for distance reference)...????

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2012-12-31 21:37:43 and read 23186 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 175):
Now, can anyone calculate the speed of the car that has the dashcam? I think from there we can calculate the aircraft speed just prior to impact... (google earth, check the lane markings for distance reference)...????

I did as you suggested and came up with an approximate speed of the car of 70.9mph. I counted 26 lane markers in exactly 10 seconds, then counted off those 26 lane markers in Google Maps satellite view and came up with about 1,040 feet. 1,040 feet in 10 seconds translates to 70.9mph, which isn't an unreasonable speed for a highway like this with light traffic.

I'll note, though, that he/she seems to have slowed down slightly towards the end of my count - the 70.9 speed is an average over that span. The car was probably going a little slower at the end... I'd guess more like 65.

How can you get the speed of the plane from the speed of the car?

[Edited 2012-12-31 21:39:16]

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2012-12-31 22:14:45 and read 23570 times.

Going back to my post about the amount of times this aircraft was photgraphed and/or videotaped on its last flight, if you go to wikipedia and search this incident, there is a picture of this aircraft mid-flight before it crashed, too! Amazes me how many people spotted this aircraft on flight.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: PW100
Posted 2013-01-01 03:31:24 and read 22854 times.

At first sight, this did not seem to be a split thurst reverse problem. If only one enigne would go into thrust reverse, it would be hard to keep the aircraft on the centreline.

As can been seen on the car video, the aircraft was dead centre on the (extended) centreline; the aircraft nosewheel even bounced against the overhead approach light structure, which is exactly on the extended centreline.

Rgds,
PW100

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: Captainmeeerkat
Posted 2013-01-01 04:18:25 and read 22651 times.

What if the engine(s) was/were indicating idle or T/R deployed but the engine(s) was/were giving forward thrust? Is such a thing possible? How noticeable would such a thing be if it was an unknown fault?

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2013-01-01 13:09:39 and read 21256 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 182):
Am actually only interested in the car speed prior to aircraft impact...

Well it would be difficult, if not impossible to calculate that precisely if the car is not at a constant speed, because by nature any measurement you take using the tools we have (Google Maps and a YouTube video) would be an average, and the shorter the measurement, the greater the error that will be introduced. I'm confident in saying the car was traveling an average of 70-71mph over the first 10 seconds of the video, which ends just prior to the plane hitting the embankment.

I just further broke it down into the first 5 seconds and the next 5 seconds. In the first five seconds, they passed 14 lane markers. In the second five seconds they passed 12. Assuming the lane markers are exactly the same length and spacing (which is not guaranteed), that means they traveled 560 feet in the first 5 seconds and 480 feet in the next 5. So in the second 5 seconds, which ends just before the plane hit, they were at an average of 65.5mph. But that still wouldn't be an exact number; they may have slowed further or alternately accelerated slightly as they saw the car in front of them start to pull away just before the impact, the lane markers may be longer or shorter, and YouTube doesn't have precise time codes, so this is just as close as I can get it to 5 second chunks.

But I think 65.5mph has to be pretty close to their actual speed at the time of impact.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: CF-CPI
Posted 2013-01-02 07:18:59 and read 19948 times.

A relatively recent update:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...heck-thrust-reverse-status-380606/

It's not clear if this means that they found evidence that reverse thrust was actually an issue in this crash. From earlier commentary, I gather that not carrying out the required checks/procedures outlined here means that forward thrust actually results. I hope there will be more definitive updates.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: horstroad
Posted 2013-01-02 07:51:56 and read 19656 times.

Quote:
the operating manual specifically warns the crew to check that the reverser is active, with the presence of the green 'REV' indication, before committing to maximum reverse thrust.

isn't it impossible to increase reverse thrust if the reverser is unlocked but not fully deployed?

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2013-01-02 11:52:12 and read 19161 times.

I saw a MAYDAY broadcast about a 320 accident at GRU where one reverser was inop and a procedural mixup had one engine on full and another on full reverse. It over ran and went off the side of the runway in a similar fashion as this 204.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAM_Airlines_Flight_3054

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: flood
Posted 2013-01-03 13:57:51 and read 17920 times.

DavidKM of flightglobal tweeted a link to a clip purportedly from the aircraft's prior landing at Pardubice:
http://youtu.be/GgOIS3oknRM

The comment also mentions "Later remarked that under the wings dripping oil" (google translation).

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: s5daw
Posted 2013-01-03 16:44:22 and read 17581 times.

Quoting flood (Reply 184):
DavidKM of flightglobal tweeted a link to a clip purportedly from the aircraft's prior landing at Pardubice:

What happened here? Seems like a hard landing... the overhead panels even opened due to the G forces or so it seems!?


Also the speed seems quite high. From the road just before the runway to the building is 420m according to google maps, and they passed that distance in 5s. That would give them the ground speed of 160 knots (tail wind?).


The first touchdown seems to be 650m after RWY threshold and the loud bang (bounce?) is heard 940m after threshold.


Is this considered normal? Did the crew have problems landing this plane? Too fast & too long, same as in Moscow??


In any case, the reverse thrust is heard at about half of the RWY and they seem to stop pretty fast. Something they could not do empty later that day.



[Edited 2013-01-03 17:13:43]

[Edited 2013-01-03 17:20:25]

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: flood
Posted 2013-01-03 21:50:15 and read 17143 times.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 185):
What happened here?

I have no idea if it's "just" a hard landing, but it's either a strange coincidence or another piece of the puzzle - as it certainly isn't normal. The initial touchdown on the mains didn't really strike me as hard... does the loud bang originate from the nose gear or elsewhere?

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: F9animal
Posted 2013-01-03 22:34:18 and read 17055 times.

I dont think the mains actually touched until the bang. Another words, he kinda floated 5 to 10 feet above the runway, and came down hard.

Anyone notice the fluctuation of the engines?

[Edited 2013-01-03 22:35:50]

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: a380heavy
Posted 2013-01-04 02:03:40 and read 16812 times.

I think the mains did touch down before the louder bang because you hear the passenger making an 'ufff' sound as though that represented a hard enough touch down, this was then followed by the louder bang of an impact strong enough to dislodge overhead panels.

The sound of the engines varying seems fairly normal to me, though it does seem that the pilot does retard the engines momentarily - similar to just before the flair but he was some day off the flair at that point.

The speed shortly before touchdown does appear to be fast - I've not done any calculations but it just appears quick to me compared to all the landings I've experienced (barring one in a Delta MD-11       )

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: shufflemoomin
Posted 2013-01-04 05:43:49 and read 16473 times.

I would agree with the comments on the landing speed. That does seem like an incredibly fast landing and it just has that feeling that it's not a very relaxed or controlled landing. Anyone one know if the same crew that perished were in control here?

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: akelley728
Posted 2013-01-11 23:57:29 and read 14946 times.

Are there any more updates on this?

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: s5daw
Posted 2013-01-12 15:48:25 and read 14522 times.

No hard facts to my knowledge. Not 787 related, so who cares... or something 

I read on pprune that there is supposed to be a CCTV footage of the whole landing + crash, but it has not been released (or leaked).

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: F9animal
Posted 2013-01-12 20:23:10 and read 14225 times.

I have been hoping to hear something by now. Any news on how the survivors are doing? All of a sudden, news has not said anything about this accident. Interesting development on the CCTV footage. Perhaps airport CCTV? If so, that might explain it not being viral.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: CF-CPI
Posted 2013-01-13 04:54:29 and read 13895 times.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 191):
I read on pprune that there is supposed to be a CCTV footage of the whole landing + crash, but it has not been released (or leaked).

I would gather the TU-204 has visual clues when the reversers are deployed, much as any other type does. Brakes and/or reversers are still considered suspect, as far as I know. Whatever the cause, the authorities really have gone silent on this one.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: ltbewr
Posted 2013-01-13 06:23:54 and read 13747 times.

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 193):
Quoting s5daw (Reply 191):I read on pprune that there is supposed to be a CCTV footage of the whole landing + crash, but it has not been released (or leaked).
I would gather the TU-204 has visual clues when the reversers are deployed, much as any other type does. Brakes and/or reversers are still considered suspect, as far as I know. Whatever the cause, the authorities really have gone silent on this one.

There is an investigation in progress and only in it's very early stages. If there were any airport based video, even by private individuals, it was most likely seized as evidence as would happen in any country. Any survivors and other witnesses are probably under government order not to speak to anyone, that this happened in Russia, with an Russia based airline, the aircraft made by a Russian/former USSR state company, so in a place like Russia there is a different concept of openness of investigations. You also perhaps have, as in other parts of the world, the possibility of criminal prosecutions of the surving flight crew, ATC staff, aircraft mx persons, the airline even the aircraft manufacture's management that means silence is a good idea. The news media in Russia is also under considerable pressures to be shut down or be hassled if they were to leak videos or witness statements.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: gonzalo
Posted 2013-01-14 06:42:40 and read 13096 times.

Quoting flood (Reply 149):
Quoting akelley728 (Reply 190):
Are there any more updates on this?

On Jan 13th 2013 Rosaviatsia enhanced the airworthiness directive released on Dec 31st 2012 demanding operators to check their TU-204 aircraft for proper fitting of cam locks on the thrust reversers. If there are gaps corrective adjustments according to maintenance manuals are to be made. Verify the thrust lever locks preventing maximum reverse thrust application without thrust reversers in their deployed position are working properly by gently releasing the fluid pressure in the reverser accumulator and apply minimum reverse thrust. Apply intermediate reverse thrust and check the locks have engaged. Adjust the maximum position of the levers with the lock engaged according to manual. Report all findings, positive or negative, to Rosaviatsia at the latest on Jan 16th 2013.


Rgds.
G.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: s5daw
Posted 2013-01-14 07:31:44 and read 13082 times.

Some "leaked information" from pprune:

A/c was totaly in order. But...
1) +20 km/h more than MAX laning speed allowed
2) Strong crosswind (possible more than allowed)
3) SOP and FCOM violation
4) Very nervous situation at the cabin from the begining of last flight, because of mistakes made at previous flight.
5) (!) Malpractice to say loud right things but doing wrong - landing speed on approach sounded to the SOP and kept 30-50 km higher, AoA sounded as 5 at pre-landing check but really is 2 and so on...

Limit switches is not the case, they was working but a/c newer touched with all three gears at landig (or more precisely "low flying"). There was 6 touches with left MG, 7 with right and 6 with nose.

Around 25-th (of 39) sec from touchdown at CVR was recorded "Takeoff?!?!" and after that flaps was moved to 18, then, couple seconds before end of the runway - both engines was shut off with emergency valve - there was signal from both MG, automatic engagemet of air brakes and spoilers, but in two seconds starts recorded alternating Ny, which coincides with the exit from the runway. Speed on the treshold was 220 kmh, speed of collision (end of record) - 170 kmh.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: CF-CPI
Posted 2013-01-14 07:47:49 and read 12951 times.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 196):
a/c newer touched with all three gears at landig (or more precisely "low flying"). There was 6 touches with left MG, 7 with right and 6 with nose.

Is this the result of high cross winds, or some other aspect of the landing (coming on too hard and bouncing, etc)?

Quoting s5daw (Reply 196):
Speed on the treshold was 220 kmh

This may have been mentioned somewhere, but is this a reasonable speed on the threshold, or too high?

Anyhow, thanks for all your info.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: CF-CPI
Posted 2013-01-14 07:53:38 and read 12928 times.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 196):
+20 km/h more than MAX laning speed allowed

I may have just answered my own question from my previous post: then the maximum allowed is really closer to 200 km/hr.

Speaking of the nervous atmosphere, these crewmembers were supposedly quite experienced. Of course there is that vid of the hard landing, supposedly taken on the outbound leg, where overhead panels came loose.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: tu204
Posted 2013-01-14 13:58:05 and read 12615 times.

They only managed to lose 50km/h on a 3k runway...well, for anyone here who has any hours behind the controls...you know what they should have done when they see that the aircraft is not decelerating but has enough room to take off again.
Anxious to read the interim report.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: F9animal
Posted 2013-01-14 14:52:01 and read 12479 times.

Wow! Kinda confused with what is being said here. Can someone break it down to a more understandable reading? Not criticizing at all, I just dont understand some of it.  

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: CF-CPI
Posted 2013-01-14 16:45:37 and read 12315 times.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 200):
Can someone break it down to a more understandable reading?

If the leaked info presented by s5daw is accurate, it seems that they were coming in too fast, had some issue making simultaneous, reliable contact with the runway on all three gears, and were only able to lose 50 km/hr out of 220 km/hr during their attempts to slow the plane on the runway. About 2/3 of the way down the runway it seems as if someone in the cockpit inquired about taking off again, but this did not happen. There was automatic engagement of the spoilers and airbrakes, which certainly would prevent taking off. By now they were close to the end of the runway, and one of the last occurrences was engine shutoff with the emergency valve - either in an attempt to slow the plane for inevitable impact, or to stop the flow of fuel and reduce the chances of post-crash fire. (the latter is my speculation). Just my $0.02.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: prebennorholm
Posted 2013-01-14 18:40:06 and read 12340 times.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 200):
Can someone break it down to a more understandable reading?

I agree with everything which CF-CPI wrote in reply #201. I will just add...

It seems they were "dancing" on alternating left and right MLG. They need weight on both to engage spoilers and reversers. And without spoilers to kill the lift from the wing the wheel brakes do little good, especially on a contaminated runway. Automatic engagement of spoilers (and reversers?) seems to ultimately have come. That may have happened more or less simultaneously with much too late decision to go around, and that way it increased go around respeonce time.

So all in all, an unstabilized landing with much too late decision to go around. Pilot error on a perfectly good plane.

Not an easy landing, due to the strong sidewind, but one which the crew should either have performed safely, or known to avoid.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: F9animal
Posted 2013-01-14 20:37:49 and read 12224 times.

Thanks guys. Makes total sense now. Am I correct by saying they should have full throttled and attempted to takeoff? I would imagine the outcome would have been saving the airplane? I also would imagine with all that going on, the crew took seconds instead of instant decision making time? Another words, time to make a decision took too long?

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: F9animal
Posted 2013-01-14 20:41:11 and read 12206 times.

One other thing. Cant spoilers be manually deployed by crew?

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2013-01-14 21:03:28 and read 12197 times.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 202):
Pilot error on a perfectly good plane.

*If* you believe these leaks (and it seems not everyone does), it seems there was a modification made to the Tu-204 in which the reversers won't deploy even in manual mode unless spoilers are already deployed, and the pilots may have been using the procedure for the old system. This resulted in significant forward thrust throughout the landing. That may or may not be pilot error; it could be a training issue as well, or even a design issue with the way the modification was implemented. (It sounds as if the engines spooled up, but the reversers did not deploy, resulting in one pilot eventually cutting the engines using the emergency fuel cutoff. That seems like a design issue to me.)

As I said, not everybody believes these leaks because they're coming from a Russian aviation forum like this one. To me, though, they sound too detailed to be fabricated, and what would be the point? Apparently there will be an interim report on the 16th, so if someone's trolling, they're not going to get a lot of satisfaction out of it.

It sounds like whether due entirely to pilot error or some combination of pilot error and other issues (there was definitely *some* pilot error here, if the leaks are accurate), the plane more or less "wheelbarrowed" down the runway due to excessive speed, which didn't allow spoilers or reversers to deploy and which maintained significant forward thrust.

Someone on PPrune (same guy who reported the leak) is also speculating that the three pilots may have been acting at cross purposes, with one trying to complete the landing at all costs, one trying to initiate a go-around, and the third doing nothing because he'd gotten reamed after the last landing, which was also a hard landing.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: Gonzalo
Posted 2013-01-15 11:21:12 and read 11757 times.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 202):
Pilot error on a perfectly good plane.

You are closing the case a little too early IMO...
Rosaviatsia asked this for a reason :

Quoting gonzalo (Reply 195):
On Jan 13th 2013 Rosaviatsia enhanced the airworthiness directive released on Dec 31st 2012 demanding operators to check their TU-204 aircraft for proper fitting of cam locks on the thrust reversers. If there are gaps corrective adjustments according to maintenance manuals are to be made. Verify the thrust lever locks preventing maximum reverse thrust application without thrust reversers in their deployed position are working properly by gently releasing the fluid pressure in the reverser accumulator and apply minimum reverse thrust. Apply intermediate reverse thrust and check the locks have engaged. Adjust the maximum position of the levers with the lock engaged according to manual. Report all findings, positive or negative, to Rosaviatsia at the latest on Jan 16th 2013.

G.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: bueb0g
Posted 2013-01-15 13:37:51 and read 11547 times.

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 193):
the authorities really have gone silent on this one.

Because they're investigating it.

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 197):
This may have been mentioned somewhere, but is this a reasonable speed on the threshold, or too high?

I think the speed quoted there is actually the overrun threshold, not the landing threshold; 220 kmh is about 118 knots, which doesn't sound like an unreasonable speed to land at (MLW speed is in the 140s on the 204 IIRC). Also, if you assume 220 kmh was their landing speed, and you takr the information that they were "20kmh too fast" (which really isn't much), then you get a Vref of 107 knots, which, even for an empty a/c, seems very low.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 203):
Am I correct by saying they should have full throttled and attempted to takeoff? I would imagine the outcome would have been saving the airplane?

If you take this leak as fact, then possibly. But we can never truly know. It's possible that their decision to touch and go would have come too late, and an attempt to take off again would only have resulted in a higher speed accident than the one we saw.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 204):

One other thing. Cant spoilers be manually deployed by crew?

Ground spoilers can usually only be deployed (esp on fly by wire airliners) if the weight on wheels switch has been engaged - ie, the a/c thinks it's on the ground. If the leak is correct and the aircraft never made full contact on the runway, but rather danced over it with various touches from different parts of the gear, it's possible the a/c thought it was still in the air and as such ground spoilers would neither auto deploy, nor be able to be manually deployed.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: transaeroyyz
Posted 2013-01-24 10:41:29 and read 10870 times.

http://avherald.com/h?article=45b4b3cb&opt=0

Some new info today, they were determined to get revesers engaged.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: s5daw
Posted 2013-01-24 11:26:15 and read 10706 times.

This is so sad... they had the option of going around, but were so focused on stopping that they've missed it.

I wonder if they could take off if the flight engineer didn't killed the engines?

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: RubberJungle
Posted 2013-01-24 11:40:17 and read 10678 times.

Flightglobal says the rough ground and deceleration during the overrun finally resulted in the landing gear compressing and unlocking the reversers.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ots-tried-reversing-thrust-381463/

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: s5daw
Posted 2013-01-24 11:43:47 and read 10694 times.

I'll paste this from another forum here:

Chairman of the Technical Commission of Inquiry into the accident with the aircraft Tu-204 RA-64047 Airline «Red Wings» informs about the results of the preliminary analysis of the information of objective control and other information received.
Approach was carried out on runway 19 (length - 3060 m) to Vnukovo Airport. Piloting was carried by PIC. Before entering the glide the aircraft was in the landing configuration: Flaps - 37°, slats - 23°, and landing gear extended. Setpoint decision height was set at 60m, landing weight of the aircraft was approximately 67.5 tons, alignment - ~ 26.5%, which is not to exceed the limits set by Flight Manual.
During preplant preparation PIC has identified the target speed of the glide path as 210 km / h, with the PIC said that the need to withstand 230 km / h Reduction took place on the final approach in the director mode with disabled automatic throttle with an average speed of about instrument 255 km / h and vertical speed -3 ... -5 m / s. Reduction was performed without significant deviations from the glide path. Inner beacon marker was passed at an altitude of 65 ... 70 m, end of the runway (runway) was passed at the height of 15 meters and air speed of 260 km / h
Landing of an aircraft was within 5 seconds after the thrust lever (throttle) to mode "idle" at the speed of 230 km / h, at a distance of about 900 m from the 1000 input threshold, ahead of the left landing gear (left bank 1 ... 1.5 °), while there was a signal compression left strut. During the landing of the aircraft on the right side wind gusts reached up to ~ 11.5 m / s. The maximum value of the vertical congestion at touchdown was 1.12g on the record of objective control (hereinafter - MSRP). Since the passage of the true height of 4 meters to touchdown was about 10 seconds.
3 seconds after touchdown nose landing gear was lowered and there was signal of nose landing gear strut compression. Signal of compression of right landing gear strut at this stage not yet formed.
Almost simultaneously with the lowering of the nose landing gear crew moved the controls throttle engines to the "maximum reverse" in one motion and applied the brake pedal on.
Opening of valves reversing system on both engines did not happen. Also did not happen automatically release air brakes and spoilers. Issue spoilers manually crew did not make.
After the transfer of throttle to the "maximum reverse" mode registered an increase with both motors (forward thrust) to the regime Nvd ~ 90%, which actually corresponds to the nominal operation.
The pressure in the wheel brakes left (compressed) landing gear was up to 50 kgf / cm ², the pressure in the wheel brakes right (not compressed) landing gear was missing.
Minimum airspeed to which aircraft slowed after 7-8 seconds field landing was 200-205 km / h at ~ 0 ° pitch and roll of 1 ° to the left, after which the rate began to increase.
2 seconds after the transfer of throttle to the "maximum reverse" flight engineer reported on the non-inclusion of a reverse.
Throttle is in the "maximum reverse" for about 8 seconds, then the reverse was off. During this time the airspeed increased to 240 km / h
The increase in speed of the instrument led to additional "unloading" of the main landing gear. With fluctuations of the roll (from 4.5 ° to 2.6 ° to the left to the right) compression occurred then left, then right landing gear. Simultaneous compression of both main landing gear did not happen. Almost simultaneously with the reversal recorded off compression of brake pedal by left pilot to 60 °. As before braking was ineffective - the pressure in the wheel brakes was applied only when the landing gear strut is compressed.
5 seconds after turning off the reverse, a flight engineer after the words "Turn of Reverse! Reverse!". Registered retransfer throttle to "maximize reverse." As the first attempt, including the reverse has happened, both engines again took to the regime of a direct link (Nvd ~ 84%). Aircraft braking happening, airspeed was 230 ... 240 km / h After 4 seconds the reverse was off. At the time of re-enable reverse the aircraft was a distance of about 950 ... 1000 m from the exit threshold.
Within 6 seconds, reverse is in the off position, at this time the crew attempted to automatic braking, as evidenced by The in talks crew and transient appearance of single commands: "Automatic braking inclusive" for primary and backup subsystems.
In the area of ​​the output threshold throttle were transferred to a small reverse mode.
Rolling out the aircraft as the runway was over 32 seconds after landing, almost on its axis, the air speed of about 215 km / h In the process of rolling out at the command of PIC flight engineer turned off the engine by means of the emergency brake.
Further movement of the aircraft took place almost on the runway extended. After turning off the engine, by braking when driving on snow cover for the runway and arrivals on irregularities occurred simultaneously compress the left and right main landing gear. Compression main landing gear led to the automatic release of air brakes and spoilers, as well as to roll direction valves engine thrust reverser. Clash of the plane with the slopes of ravines happened to ground speed of about 190 km / h

[Edited 2013-01-24 11:44:29]

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: redzeppelin
Posted 2013-01-24 11:52:32 and read 10626 times.

Wow. A stark reminder of how many systems are working together to stop a landing airplane.
After reading that, I wonder how much did the 22 knot crosswind gust affect the accident? It sounds like the gust may have prevented the intial contact of both main gears, and the reversers and spoilers could not deploy until both gears were compressed. It still seems like the crew still had plenty of time to react appropriately, but my layman's interpretation is that the wind gust set off the dominoes here.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: s5daw
Posted 2013-01-24 11:56:54 and read 10606 times.

Quoting redzeppelin (Reply 212):
and the reversers and spoilers could not deploy

They could deploy the spoilers manually. Gear contact is only needed for auto spoiler deploy.

Quoting redzeppelin (Reply 212):
I wonder how much did the 22

This, plus they were light, since there were no passengers. But really, it seems like 100% captain's fault.
In a tragic way it's good he didn't take more people with him...

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: bueb0g
Posted 2013-01-24 15:37:59 and read 10330 times.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 209):
This is so sad... they had the option of going around, but were so focused on stopping that they've missed it.

Pilots are trained not to go around after the reverses are engaged. A GA was not an option in their minds, and that wasn't their fault.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 213):
They could deploy the spoilers manually

I don't think the ground spoilers are capable of deploying without the aircraft entering ground mode, which it did not while on the runway.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 213):
But really, it seems like 100% captain's fault.

I really don't think it's fair to arrive at this conclusion, and certainly unfair to say it was 100% his fault. It was an unfortunate situation - they could have probably handled it better, but this is the type of accident that could befall many good crews.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: usxguy
Posted 2013-01-24 15:40:09 and read 10332 times.

But do we know in the TU 204 that you can enable the ground spoilers manually? I have a gut feeling this is a bad case of the computer not allowing the pilots to fly the plane.. one reason I *hate* fly by wire systems.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2013-01-24 15:44:41 and read 10334 times.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 213):
This, plus they were light, since there were no passengers. But really, it seems like 100% captain's fault.

It's the captain's fault but there is definitely a design issue there, as I suspected might be the case. I am not sure how it works in other airplanes but it doesn't seem like selecting maximum reverse should ever command forward thrust. That seems to have contributed pretty majorly to the severity of the accident. Without reverse thrust and spoilers, the airplane may have overrun anyway, but not at 215 knots! (Seems that those of us who saw a high speed overrun were right.) If it had overrun at a slower speed, there may not have been fatalities. And it seems that that forward thrust is what kept both MLG's from compressing.

It definitely would have been a confusing situation. Normal landing, a sudden wind gust at touchdown but otherwise you're just going through normal procedures, select reverse thrust and instead you get *forward* thrust, braking is then ineffective due to the MLG not compressing, no auto-spoilers, and just as you figure out what's going on and take the only decisive action you know to take (shutting off the engines), there's the end of the runway.

The pilots probably did not know why they were getting forward thrust. It is at best a counterintuitive result. They may or may not have been trained to handle this specific situation, but it seems to me that in a confused situation like that, you would want the system to be designed to be intuitive rather than the opposite.

[Edited 2013-01-24 15:47:36]

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: CF-CPI
Posted 2013-01-24 15:46:49 and read 10343 times.

Now that some of the facts are falling into place, can we ask if other types, the 757, 737NG or A320 family, would have had the same outcome? I'm not trying to point a finger at the TU204 per se, but I'd be curious as to how those other airframes would have handled the same runway conditions, near empty weight, and a gust.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: prebennorholm
Posted 2013-01-24 17:37:24 and read 10198 times.

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 217):
Now that some of the facts are falling into place, can we ask if other types, the 757, 737NG or A320 family, would have had the same outcome? I'm not trying to point a finger at the TU204 per se

You don't need to single out 757, 737 and 320. In principle it could be any airliner. There are slight differences how the systems work, but the crews are trained to know exactly how their plane works and act accordingly.

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 217):
...but I'd be curious as to how those other airframes would have handled the same runway conditions, near empty weight, and a gust.

Different weights, sidewind, gusts are conditions which are trained to - and even beyond - the limits in sims.

When positive deceleration isn't established well before running out of runway needed for a go around, then the pilot flying shall initiate a go around. That's trained over and over again in sims, but it didn't happen here. It could look like a serious CRM breakdown is at least partly responsible for this accident.

There may be plane types which would have handled exactly this situation better, or worse, due to slightly different system architecture. Then in a different situation, "better" and "worse" might be reversed. But crews are trained to know and correctly use the systems on their plane as they are. It didn't happen here.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2013-01-24 20:42:54 and read 10026 times.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 218):
When positive deceleration isn't established well before running out of runway needed for a go around, then the pilot flying shall initiate a go around.

The problem is you're not only not getting positive deceleration, you're getting positive (and uncommanded) *acceleration*, with reverser deployment commanded. We don't yet know if this was trained for or not. Even if it was, it's not intuitive behavior, so it would be difficult information to process correctly in a fluid, confusing and quickly-developing situation.

Let's say I'm driving on a highway, and I want to slow down to get off at an off-ramp. I move over to the exit lane and lightly press the brake... yet the car accelerates. I'm a trained driver, and I know how the various systems in my car work. But what am I instinctively going to do? It's not going to be really clear to me that the best way to figure out why my brakes aren't working and my car continues to accelerate uncommanded is to get back on the highway. In this confusing situation, I'm probably going to be more likely to initially just press the brake harder, and then to shut off the engine and yank the emergency brake. By the time I fully realize that the brakes are actually what's *causing* my problem, I'll be at the stoplight at the end of the exit.

This is in effect what it sounds like happened here. It's a catch-22 for a pilot. You're asking a pilot to take off again in the midst of a confusing situation where he doesn't even know where his forward thrust is coming from, and where it seems like all of his safety systems are suddenly not working.

I don't know how the reverser system on every single plane works but I do know that the NTSB noted a design flaw with the Learjet 60 that allowed it to produce uncommanded forward thrust when the reverser cowlings would not open - this seems to be a similar flaw. In fact, this flaw on the Lear 60 contributed to two accidents and was noted both times by the NTSB.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-01-25 03:20:09 and read 9805 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 219):
The problem is you're not only not getting positive deceleration, you're getting positive (and uncommanded) *acceleration*, with reverser deployment commanded. We don't yet know if this was trained for or not.

Personally, I think that's a textbook scenario for going with this rule:

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 218):
When positive deceleration isn't established well before running out of runway needed for a go around, then the pilot flying shall initiate a go around.
Particularly given that they were in fact accelerating.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: s5daw
Posted 2013-01-25 04:47:15 and read 9657 times.

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 214):
Pilots are trained not to go around after the reverses are engaged. A GA was not an option in their minds, and that wasn't their fault.
Quote:

2 seconds after the transfer of throttle to the "maximum reverse" flight engineer reported on the non-inclusion of a reverse.
Throttle is in the "maximum reverse" for about 8 seconds, then the reverse was off. During this time the airspeed increased to 240 km / h

As I'm not a pilot I can only discuss this in layman's terms, but since the flight engineer reported the reverses did not deploy... So when the reverse was off, and the airspeed increased to 240 km/h, there was an opportunity to GA. Of course, I understand the confusion the reversers caused, but FE did announce they weren't deployed.

Quoting usxguy (Reply 215):
But do we know in the TU 204 that you can enable the ground spoilers manually?

I don't know about that, but:
- they could probably at least deploy speed brakes, which should slow them down enough to get WOW and functional wheel brakes, no?
- AKAIK in the prior landing there was an argument over FE deploying uncommanded spoilers (which presumably caused hard landing). If not machine related, it is psychology related.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: bueb0g
Posted 2013-01-25 08:45:53 and read 9449 times.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 221):
As I'm not a pilot I can only discuss this in layman's terms, but since the flight engineer reported the reverses did not deploy... So when the reverse was off, and the airspeed increased to 240 km/h, there was an opportunity to GA.

It's true, and perhaps had they been more prepared, a GA would have been possible. But as I said, it's standard training not to go around after the reversers have been deployed, even if you stow them; you can't be sure that the doors aren't still open, for example. In hindsight, we are able to see that the doors never did open, and going around would not have been dangerous - this may not have been clear to the crew in the heat of the moment however, and I find it unfair to blame them for this.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 218):
When positive deceleration isn't established well before running out of runway needed for a go around, then the pilot flying shall initiate a go around.

Unless the reversers have been deployed (or the reverser handles pulled), in which case a go around is not an option.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: mandala499
Posted 2013-01-25 08:57:47 and read 9444 times.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 221):
So when the reverse was off, and the airspeed increased to 240 km/h, there was an opportunity to GA. Of course, I understand the confusion the reversers caused, but FE did announce they weren't deployed.

No once reversers have been selected you do not go-around, for the same reason as this not deploying, it could deploy when you go around which would be a disaster too.

Several things I noticed from your translation:

Quoting s5daw (Reply 211):
Almost simultaneously with the lowering of the nose landing gear crew moved the controls throttle engines to the "maximum reverse" in one motion and applied the brake pedal on.

This was not in accordance to the Airworthiness Directive for the Tu-204? Was there an AD or circular somewhere that says apply idle reverse to check reversers deployed prior to going beyond idle reverse? Regardless of the AD or circular, it's always good practice to go to idle reverse to check reverser deployment prior to going beyond idle reverse... or even better, let autobrake do it's job.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 211):
Opening of valves reversing system on both engines did not happen. Also did not happen automatically release air brakes and spoilers. Issue spoilers manually crew did not make.

I suspect there is something in the ground mode logic. The Tu-204 may require both MLG compressed to enter ground mode (which would allow reversers to be deployed, but only 1 MLG compressed (partial ground mode) to allow the reversers to be selected while ground spoilers require full ground mode, and speedbrake in partial ground mode can only be manual?

Quoting s5daw (Reply 211):
The pressure in the wheel brakes left (compressed) landing gear was up to 50 kgf / cm ², the pressure in the wheel brakes right (not compressed) landing gear was missing.

I wonder if someone has an English version of the FCOM *wishful thinking*

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: s5daw
Posted 2013-01-25 09:20:06 and read 9394 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 223):
Several things I noticed from your translation

Just to make things clear, not my translations, copied from another forum...

[Edited 2013-01-25 09:20:35]

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 223):
This was not in accordance to the Airworthiness Directive for the Tu-204? Was there an AD or circular somewhere that says apply idle reverse to check reversers deployed prior to going beyond idle reverse?

I think there was... something about setting throttle to idle, wait for green REW and only then proceed to apply reversers... I'm just not sure if it was issued before this crash or right after it.


[Edited 2013-01-25 09:23:12]

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2013-01-25 11:02:57 and read 9291 times.

It it just me or does this scenario of reverse thrust not working and forward thrust being applied sound a lot like TAM Flight 3054?

Reverse thrust not being engaged even though the pilots thought it was commanded. Spoilers not deploying because sensors didn't show the aircraft on the ground upon landing. Additional unexpected forward thrust being generated by the engine(s).

Yes, I know there are several details different, but the general scenario is frighteningly familiar.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2013-01-25 12:03:58 and read 9196 times.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 221):
Of course, I understand the confusion the reversers caused, but FE did announce they weren't deployed.

Which might only add to the confusion. Reverse thrust commanded, reversers not deployed, uncommanded forward thrust. If you're in a calm room and have a minute to think, you would probably be able to put 2+2+2 together and figure out what's going on, but we are looking at this in hindsight - not being thrown what seems like contradictory data in a high-pressure situation that we have only seconds to deal with. The big question in their minds would probably be *why* no reverse thrust or auto-spoilers, and once they went to max reverse (which gave them forward thrust), it seems they were doomed. That was probably the decision that really got them into that mess.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 223):
No once reversers have been selected you do not go-around, for the same reason as this not deploying, it could deploy when you go around which would be a disaster too.

Thanks for the info; I had a feeling going around seemed like a bad idea at that point.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 225):
It it just me or does this scenario of reverse thrust not working and forward thrust being applied sound a lot like TAM Flight 3054?

Well, but in that case, the situation should not have been so confusing, I don't think. Because the right engine was in the "climb" position, and they should have visually seen that. They just didn't think it would matter because they assumed they were in auto-thrust mode. That was really the root cause of that accident.

In this crash, it seems positive pilot commands did exactly the opposite of what they intended, which is always something that's going to take a human being a few seconds to grasp and correct for. The plane in the TAM 3054 crash actually did exactly what they commanded it to do; the pilots were just confused about how the plane worked. The plane here didn't do what they commanded it to do, because a gust of wind conspired with a design decision to make it do the opposite. Of course, it seems it's still an error that they didn't check reverser deployment at idle before going to max reverse, which is probably the root cause of this accident.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: s5daw
Posted 2013-01-25 12:26:15 and read 9353 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 226):
root cause of this accident

The root cause seems to be too fast & too long... reversers did not deploy because they were basically flying the whole time.

Kind of similar to LH 2904 (but that crew had a reason to come in too fast) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lufthansa_Flight_2904

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: bueb0g
Posted 2013-01-25 14:32:41 and read 9173 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 223):
Was there an AD or circular somewhere that says apply idle reverse to check reversers deployed prior to going beyond idle reverse?

There was, but it was after the accident.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 227):
The root cause seems to be too fast & too long... reversers did not deploy because they were basically flying the whole time.

Not really, because they had plenty of runway left on which to stop. The root cause was deploying reversers when they weren't properly on the ground (and again, I don't entirely blame them for this).

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: YVRLTN
Posted 2013-01-25 20:30:55 and read 8985 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 223):
The Tu-204 may require both MLG compressed to enter ground mode

Is this unique to the TU-204? I thought it was standard on Airbus and Boeing aircraft too and why in some conditions pilots like to really bump the airplane onto the runway rather than grease it to avoid this? I seem to recall this was one of the issues in this incident too, some aquaplaning IIRC (as well as the other issues already mentioned).

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 225):
It it just me or does this scenario of reverse thrust not working and forward thrust being applied sound a lot like TAM Flight 3054?

As an aside and without meaning to be a whatever, if this aircraft had been a 787 or a non Russian airline, we would be onto part 6 at least by now...

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2013-01-25 22:44:30 and read 8876 times.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 227):
The root cause seems to be too fast & too long... reversers did not deploy because they were basically flying the whole time.

There was a gust of crosswind at touchdown that kept one MLG off the ground, which led to the spoilers and reversers not deploying and braking being ineffective. That in turn led one of the pilots to command max reverse thrust which, with no reverser deployment, gave them forward thrust. That forward thrust led to them "wheelbarrowing" down the runway and gaining speed until they cut the engines.

Touchdown was not long and they were not fast. The landing seemed to be normal until the crosswind gust. Because of the gust, braking did not work as intended, and the selection of max reverse thrust (giving them forward thrust) ensured that the main gears stayed off the ground until the engines were shut off. By then it was too late.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: CF-CPI
Posted 2013-01-26 07:17:45 and read 8616 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 230):
There was a gust of crosswind at touchdown that kept one MLG off the ground

Can we revisit something that was said early on - and that is the question of whether recorded cross winds were too high to permit safe landings at this field, at this particular time? At one point, it was suggested that both speed and crosswinds were outside the permitted envelope for SOP. I'd just like to get clarification on the issue of proceeding with the landing in the first place (and I don't mean in terms of 20/20 hindsight).

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2013-01-26 07:44:12 and read 8567 times.

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 231):
At one point, it was suggested that both speed and crosswinds were outside the permitted envelope for SOP.

The landing speeds were not high. They were within normal parameters.

Winds gusting to 22 kts would not be outside the normal operational range of a B757 which is a similarly sized aircraft, so presumably not outside the range of a TU-204.

During such conditions, most pilots prefer to make a FIRM landing - where the plane is put down solidly on the runway. As mentioned above in this thread - there had been some issues among the cockpit crew about the previous landing being too firm.

So it appears to me the captain was trying to grease it in - far under normal landing weight due to no pax aboard, and the gust - which combine to keep the airplane from settling on the gear.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: CF-CPI
Posted 2013-01-26 07:56:11 and read 8587 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 232):
During such conditions, most pilots prefer to make a FIRM landing - where the plane is put down solidly on the runway.

I was talking to an Alaska airlines captain some time back - he joked that passengers complained about his hard landings. Of course, the idea behind them was to avoid what Red Wings found out. FYI, when the L1011 first came to Air Canada, its autoland was so gentle and nice that they almost had a couple of Tristars sliding off the runway in winter conditions. They had to re-program the system to put the aircraft down with a bit more force.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: Pugman211
Posted 2013-01-26 07:57:51 and read 8565 times.

I have a question, and i'd just like to state im not a pilot or engineer or anything like that.

This aircraft touched down, albeit long and light apparantly, you have no/limited braking, no spoilers and no reverse thrust and now no option to GA. What would have happened if they raised the landing gear???

Before you shoot me down let me explain, the one way you can slow down is through friction. if ALL of the above are not available, could you pull the gear up, the nose would hit the ground and slow u down, combined with pulling the Estop on the engines so no more forward thrust. If it saved your life would you try it????

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: F9animal
Posted 2013-01-26 08:01:36 and read 8590 times.

What a tragedy. Those pilots were probably freaking out in the last seconds. I could not imagine looking out the cockpit windows to see the end of the runway coming. I hope that this issue is fully retrained to flight crews so we dont have another accident like this. Does anyone have any info on the survivors, and how well they are recovering?

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: s5daw
Posted 2013-01-26 13:12:37 and read 8440 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 232):
The landing speeds were not high. They were within normal parameters.

It this CVR leak is correct, PNF disagreed with you:

Quote:
CPT at approach when 2P commented "Speed 280 kph too high" replied "You better did not piss me off"

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: bueb0g
Posted 2013-01-26 13:51:35 and read 8351 times.

Quoting Pugman211 (Reply 234):
What would have happened if they raised the landing gear???


It's relatively pointless to even hypothesise about this. Firstly, a crew in this situation is not going to have enough time to decide to do something like that (it's the conclusion of a pretty long thought process that requires realising quite a few things), especially as gear up landings are obviously nothing a crew ever wants to intentionally do. Secondly, taking this action could may well make the situation worse (could also, as you say, potentially stop them but it's rather a gamble). Also, by the time the situation would be so critical that the crew would resort to solutions like that, it's probably too late to stop the a/c vacating the runway.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 236):
It this CVR leak is correct, PNF disagreed with you:

We don't need CVR leaks, we have FDR data. Touchdown was at 118 knots. Taking winds into account, this was a permissible speed, and was the Vapp that the crew was using. Perhaps a little faster than they would have liked for touchdown but certainly not a dangerous speed. It must also be noted that the speed reduced to 104 knots while still on the runway and the MLG legs still did not compress, so it is questionable whether a slower touchdown would have helped them much.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: Revelation
Posted 2013-01-26 15:00:59 and read 8254 times.

The AvHerald link above says the new AD requests the maintainers verify that the thrust lever locks prevent application of reverse thrust without the thrust reversers being deployed. Apparently there are some adjustments that need to be made if there are gaps seen at the cam locks on the thrust reversers.

Seems that proper functioning of said system would have been helpful in this case.

I'm not sure what indications the crew get about TR deployment or stowage status.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 223):
Quoting s5daw (Reply 221):
So when the reverse was off, and the airspeed increased to 240 km/h, there was an opportunity to GA. Of course, I understand the confusion the reversers caused, but FE did announce they weren't deployed.

No once reversers have been selected you do not go-around, for the same reason as this not deploying, it could deploy when you go around which would be a disaster too.

Given that "rule" it seems in hindsight the only thing the crew could have done once the TRs were found to have not deployed was to put the throttles to idle and hope to both wheels firmly on the ground so braking could be effective and auto-spoilers deployed. It seems the FE did cut the engines near the end of the runway, which is consistent with this goal.

Seems the crew needs to have indication of stowed/partially-deployed/fully-deployed status of both sets of TRs so they can make the best possible decision about GA.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2013-01-26 19:24:32 and read 8047 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 238):
Given that "rule" it seems in hindsight the only thing the crew could have done once the TRs were found to have not deployed was to put the throttles to idle and hope to both wheels firmly on the ground so braking could be effective and auto-spoilers deployed.

It doesn't seem like there was a firm/informed answer in this thread about whether spoilers could have been manually deployed in this situation, which would have helped a lot.

If manual spoiler deployment was not possible, reverse thrust was not possible, and a go-around was not possible after reverser selection, then no, there's nothing they could do other than cut to idle, jam the brakes and hope for the best. That seems like a pretty serious design flaw in the system. Can't go around, can't slow down enough. They would have likely overrun regardless, albeit at a slower speed, given that braking was ineffective as long as the wings were still generating lift through the wind gusts and ground effect. Doesn't seem like an unlucky wind gust should be capable of making a safe landing impossible.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2013-01-27 06:15:24 and read 7752 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 239):
That seems like a pretty serious design flaw in the system. Can't go around, can't slow down enough.

That is why reversers are not used to calculate the landing speed and safe stopping distance.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 239):
They would have likely overrun regardless, albeit at a slower speed, given that braking was ineffective as long as the wings were still generating lift through the wind gusts and ground effect. Doesn't seem like an unlucky wind gust should be capable of making a safe landing impossible.

The method to deal with gusting type winds like these is a little faster speed on touchdown and a FIRM landing. Put the plane solidly on the ground to ensure the wheel struts compress and brakes work.

Trying to make the landing as smooth as possible can lead to floating at touchdown, and as we see in this case, maintaining enough lift to keep the brakes and spoilers from being fully functional.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 239):
It doesn't seem like there was a firm/informed answer in this thread about whether spoilers could have been manually

Unlike most A or B or Emb or Bom or ATR aircraft - we seem to not have any actual TU pilots or airline people on this forum.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: aotearoa
Posted 2013-01-27 11:13:31 and read 7535 times.

Excuse me if this has been mentioned earlier on the thread.

The basic design philosophy of reverse thrust systems is that no more than idle thrust can be selected by the PF until the reverse thrust system is full engaged and locked in place. I'm unfamiliar with the TU 204, however I would be very surprised if it was different from western jet reverse thrust systems.

There is a very serious issue here if the reverse thrust system allowed the thrust to increase with the thrust reverser not engaged in the reverse position.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: F9animal
Posted 2013-01-27 11:14:47 and read 7534 times.

Are airplanes becoming too automatic anymore? I find it shocking that a crew cant override computers and basic controls. I cant understand why a system wont work if all three gears are not settled. If you cant reverse or have spoilers manually engaged, then I guess its just hopeful thinking that the system will work?

This brings up a good question. Are flight crews becoming too dependent on auto systems? My uncle is a retired NW 747 captain. He says that flying a 707 was real piloting, as the 747-400 became a job to monitor all systems to ensure the plane was programmed correctly. He said he fears that newer pilots will become too reliant on automatic computers to fly, and not know what flying by yoke is.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: bueb0g
Posted 2013-01-27 12:04:42 and read 7457 times.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 242):
He said he fears that newer pilots will become too reliant on automatic computers to fly, and not know what flying by yoke is.

A different topic for a different discussion. But your uncle's views sound like typical "classic" pilot hyperbole with a sliver of truth - that truth being that automation is a useful tool that is used often - but the conclusion of that truth is blown way out of proportion.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 242):
Are airplanes becoming too automatic anymore? I find it shocking that a crew cant override computers and basic controls.

Turbofans shouldn't reverse in flight, so I'd say it's a good thing to lock them out while not on the ground, all in all, even if it sometimes causes accidents such as this.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 242):
Are flight crews becoming too dependent on auto systems?

Not really, but they have to be careful. But again, different discussion. Let's stay discussing the 204 crash.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: Revelation
Posted 2013-01-27 12:28:22 and read 7425 times.

Quoting aotearoa (Reply 241):
The basic design philosophy of reverse thrust systems is that no more than idle thrust can be selected by the PF until the reverse thrust system is full engaged and locked in place. I'm unfamiliar with the TU 204, however I would be very surprised if it was different from western jet reverse thrust systems.

There is a very serious issue here if the reverse thrust system allowed the thrust to increase with the thrust reverser not engaged in the reverse position.

As per the post-AD crash I described earlier:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 238):
The AvHerald link above says the new AD requests the maintainers verify that the thrust lever locks prevent application of reverse thrust without the thrust reversers being deployed. Apparently there are some adjustments that need to be made if there are gaps seen at the cam locks on the thrust reversers.

One could draw the conclusion that the system you mention has issues.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: s5daw
Posted 2013-01-27 13:56:21 and read 7340 times.

Quoting aotearoa (Reply 241):
There is a very serious issue here if the reverse thrust system allowed the thrust to increase with the thrust reverser not engaged in the reverse position.

Yes, there is: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...heck-thrust-reverse-status-380606/

Quote:
After touchdown, with the throttle reduced to idle and the spoilers deployed, the thrust-reverse control lever should normally be moved, over the course of 1-2s, initially to the 'small reverse' position.

The engine instrument panel should indicate, in yellow text, that the thrust-reverse lock has opened and then - with the symbol 'REV' in green text - that the reverser is active, says the manual.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: aotearoa
Posted 2013-01-27 19:05:47 and read 7152 times.

As far as I'm aware, both Boeing and Airbus frames will not allow physical movement out of the reverse idle position (the position first selected from forward idle to initiate reverse thrust) unless the reverser translation cowl is fully locked in the reverse thrust position. In other words, mechanical interlocks physically stop selection of engine thrust higher than idle in an abnormal reverse thrust selection.

Both Airbus and more recently Boeing have a "reverser normal' call that is made by the PM. This call is made when the REV indication is green on the engine display. The call is really a back up to the reverser interlocks described above. The reality is that by the time the call is made, the PF will have realised that there is an issue as one or both of the reverser levers will (or should) not have moved from the rev idle position.

In regard to the comment re automation, I don't regard a modern airliner any easier to operate than first generation jets like the B737-200. They may have more automation, however they are way more complex to prepare flight and require greater awareness of FMS logic and management functions. Operating an autoland in CAT IIIB conditions and then taxing to the gate, even with the use of airport moving map displays, still requires greater system knowledge than a CAT I ILS and missed approach on a first gen jet.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: s5daw
Posted 2013-01-29 09:44:48 and read 6775 times.

Interesting video of TU154 with reversers deployed before touchdown http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq5HLtdGeqE

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: AirlineCritic
Posted 2013-01-29 20:16:54 and read 6507 times.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 247):
Interesting video of TU154 with reversers deployed before touchdown

Very disturbing.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: BEG2IAH
Posted 2013-01-29 20:28:39 and read 6516 times.

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 248):
Very disturbing.

Not disturbing, totally normal. I suggest this thread: Thrust Reversers Before Touchdown? (by DocLightning Jul 7 2008 in Tech Ops)

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: N766UA
Posted 2013-01-30 12:08:10 and read 6242 times.

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 248):
Very disturbing.

That's SOP for that airplane, IIRC.

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2013-01-30 12:23:50 and read 6216 times.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 250):
Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 248):
Very disturbing.

That's SOP for that airplane, IIRC.

Besides that, what does this have to do with the accident in question?

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: BEG2IAH
Posted 2013-01-30 17:46:51 and read 6083 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 251):
Besides that, what does this have to do with the accident in question?

Maybe poster wanted to "illustrate" that Russians have no idea how to use thrust reversers. No idea...

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: s5daw
Posted 2013-01-31 00:31:05 and read 5957 times.

The question was if all modern planes require wheels on the ground the deploy reversers...

Topic: RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway
Username: bueb0g
Posted 2013-01-31 02:51:48 and read 5835 times.

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 248):
Very disturbing.

No, it's SOP for that a/c.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 253):
The question was if all modern planes require wheels on the ground the deploy reversers...

Tu-154 is hardly modern, and the effects of its reversers can hardly be compared to modern jets like the Tu-204. The 154 has low bypass engines, which are tail mounted rather than wing mounted, and the reversers are clamshell and not cascade. This basically means that deploying reversers in the air has the effect of neutralising forward thrust and adding drag, rather than also spoiling lift, which is what can happen if a cascade, wing mounted reverser deploys (especially at high power). By virtue of being tail mounted, a reverser asymmetry (if one deployed accidentally) is less severe and the yawing moment will be less strong and easier to combat than a wing mounted engine. Look at the Lauda Air 767 crash.


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