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Topic: AA To DEL?
Username: kann123air
Posted 2012-12-24 12:44:55 and read 11990 times.

Found this on AA.com.....It clearly says: "....on a flight to Delhi with American Airlines." I thought AA 292/293 ORD-DEL was axed last year, what's going on?

http://www.aa.com/i18n/travelInforma...inationInformation/delhi/delhi.jsp

I really hope they bring back this flight. Much better than Air India.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2012-12-24 12:55:39 and read 11943 times.

That section does not have much to do with reality of where AA operates to, but AAvacations can still get you there.

For example, other old stations are covered there as well, plus ones AA has not served at all - eg - Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Istanbul, Tel Aviv, Seville, Prague, Singapore, etc...

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: kann123air
Posted 2012-12-24 13:05:43 and read 11867 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):

Oops, haha, that is true!! Thanks!

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: LFutia
Posted 2012-12-24 15:26:10 and read 11406 times.

Quoting kann123air (Thread starter):
I really hope they bring back this flight. Much better than Air India.

This is true, it was very popular but also very long. I'm not a huge fan of super long-haul flights and in regards to Air India, I fly KLM.

Leo/ORD

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: thekennady
Posted 2012-12-24 17:04:25 and read 11150 times.

Im still upset this route was cut, it stings. Was a unique and popular route for AA. At least ORD Still has AI daily.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: etops1
Posted 2012-12-24 17:37:36 and read 11032 times.

High chance it will come back as a result of a merger .

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: dirtyfrankd
Posted 2012-12-24 18:32:14 and read 10898 times.

Quoting etops1 (Reply 5):
High chance it will come back as a result of a merger .

Don't see what a possible merger with US has to do with re-starting this route.

I would say that there is a good chance of it coming back as a result of Ch.11 restructuring as well as re-configured 772s which are better suited for this route. Merger has nothing to do with it...that I can see at least.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: mah4546
Posted 2012-12-24 19:18:05 and read 10770 times.

I can't believe somebody would actually try to a claim a merger with US would for some reason bring the route back. It won't.

However, in an internal outline of how AA plans to grow its route network between 2013 and 2017, returning to India was indeed included. This plan assumes no merger with US Airways.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: kann123air
Posted 2012-12-24 19:27:13 and read 10748 times.

Quoting etops1 (Reply 5):
High chance it will come back as a result of a merger .

How?

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: JOYA380B747
Posted 2012-12-24 19:39:38 and read 10708 times.

Nah I don't see it coming back anytime soon. Especially with the not so significant growth in pax numbers in the Indian aviation arena with all those ridiculous airport taxes....

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: LFutia
Posted 2012-12-24 20:30:47 and read 10583 times.

Its a shame that a garbage airline like Air India serves my city Chicago. I wonder if United could make it work, but I'm sure would take a way a lot of feed from Lufthansa and Star carriers that serve Chicago.

Leo/ORD

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: manny
Posted 2012-12-24 20:39:32 and read 10536 times.

Quoting LFutia (Reply 10):
Its a shame that a garbage airline like Air India serves my city Chicago. I wonder if United could make it work, but I'm sure would take a way a lot of feed from Lufthansa and Star carriers that serve Chicago

What's ironic is the "garbage" airline actually elbowed out AA from the DEL route. What does that say about AA ?

And do a photo search on the cabin interiors of the new 777's that are used by AI on this route before posting such an ignorant comment.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: JOYA380B747
Posted 2012-12-24 20:44:05 and read 10504 times.

Quoting manny (Reply 11):
What's ironic is the "garbage" airline actually elbowed out AA from the DEL route.

Majorly because of Govt bailouts and support despite losses on any of its routes.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: LFutia
Posted 2012-12-24 20:45:30 and read 10505 times.

Quoting manny (Reply 11):
What's ironic is the "garbage" airline actually elbowed out AA from the DEL route. What does that say about AA ?

And do a photo search on the cabin interiors of the new 777's that are used by AI on this route before posting such an ignorant comment.

no need to do a search, its Air India's cheap cheap fares that pushed AA out. Just because it has a nice cabin doesnt mean anything. Its still a loss making carrier. Flight goes out empty all the time. United has stronger ties to Chicago than AA does.

As an Indian, I dont see my comment as being ignorant. Just stating the truth.

Leo/ORD

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: RWA380
Posted 2012-12-25 02:30:11 and read 9473 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
other old stations are covered there as well, plus ones AA has not served at all - eg - Amsterdam

Indeed never served, but I have had confirmed reservations, and issued tickets, on AA to AMS, routed via ORD, but AA never started the route, we ended up flying via BRU taking the Thalys into Centaal Station, at least it was all F or J.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: thekennady
Posted 2012-12-25 03:45:19 and read 9225 times.

Quoting manny (Reply 11):
What's ironic is the "garbage" airline actually elbowed out AA from the DEL route. What does that say about AA ?

Yea, and AA fed ORD-DEL through its own network but still could not sustain it. Does AI get any feed on ORD-DEL or is it strickly o&d? If so thats more weired. I wish i ran a airline that would not be allowed

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: VIDP
Posted 2012-12-25 04:40:29 and read 8995 times.

The flight actually originates in HYD so its HYD-DEL-ORD. And yes they do sell domestic connections along with the subject flight.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: thekennady
Posted 2012-12-25 05:14:54 and read 8847 times.

Quoting VIDP (Reply 16):
The flight actually originates in HYD so its HYD-DEL-ORD. And yes they do sell domestic connections along with the subject flight.


Yes i know there are connections in DEL. But what about ORD?

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: etops1
Posted 2012-12-25 06:01:18 and read 8650 times.

US has stated before that DEL and Mumbai were a possibility once more AC were acquired . Well since US management will most likely be run the new AA and more AC will be available , I can see them restarting the route . It could be out of ORD, it could be out of DFW . Hell it could be out of PHL . Who knows ? You guys need to chill with all the US bashing . Every time someone mentions anything about US in reference to AA you guys get all defensive . Face it ! US is taking over AA but keeping the AA name . Doug Parker will likely be the new CEO of AA ! Get use to it ! Now go along boys and girls . And enjoy your little AA as it was for the remaining part of 2012 because once 2013 rolls in , The sign at AA hq in DFW is gonna read " Under New Management " .. Merry Christmas  

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2012-12-25 07:41:08 and read 8124 times.

Quoting LFutia (Reply 13):

What truth would that be? From a pax perspective, AI's product on the route fares comparably to AA (frankly, whose wouldn't - AA is a bottom-of-the-barrel carrier by international standards).

Both airlines are loss-makers. In AI's defence,it is used as a govt plaything, has aircraft commandeered by the government on a whim, and loses premium seats to bureaucrats, politicians and their families for free. It doesn't even nickel-and-dime like AA. AA on the other hand ... bankrupt, outdated product, poor service. Oh, and its also a "loss-making" airline(I suppose that makes UA, AF etc "garbage" airlines too).

The problem with your argument (aside from the gratuitous insults) is that "nice cabins" and low fares tend to fare well, particularly against the likes of AA (at least until the 773 cabins become the norm, not to mention a wholesale change in the catering etc).

I hope AA does well and I hope it starts the route again. But for that to happen, it will have to match the nice cabin and low fares. Letting consumers decide can be a real problem for some airlines.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: ckfred
Posted 2012-12-25 09:35:02 and read 7523 times.

Quoting LFutia (Reply 13):
United has stronger ties to Chicago than AA does.

The fact that UA has been headquartered in Chicago for many years doesn't mean that UA has stronger ties. AA has generally been the #2 carrier at ORD, as long as I can remember, which goes back to the mid 60s. While UA has the naming rights for the home arena of the Bulls and Blackhawks, in terms of corporate sponserships in Chicagoland, AA and UA are pretty even.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: AA94
Posted 2012-12-25 09:44:28 and read 7443 times.

Quoting etops1 (Reply 18):

And you're right behind us defending US, so it goes both ways.

Forgive my youthful naïveté, but why would a combined US/AA restart a route that has, traditionally, been operated at a loss in the past? I know that you seem to think that Doug Parker is the best thing since sliced bread, but I don't even think he's foolish enough to restart a route that comes with high costs and very low yields. You've presented no substantial case for the restarting of the route except for the fact that it was mentioned by US management at some point.

[/rant]


On an aside, can anyone elaborate on how UA's EWR-DEL route does? I don't know anything about the market, and it would be useful to hear how the only US carrier does on their US-India flights.

[Edited 2012-12-25 10:15:05]

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-12-25 09:49:17 and read 7416 times.

Quoting etops1 (Reply 18):
Well since US management will most likely be run the new AA and more AC will be available , I can see them restarting the route . It could be out of ORD, it could be out of DFW . Hell it could be out of PHL . Who knows ?


So your claim is that Doug Parker doesnt know how to run an airline?

If he does (which I believe), he wont restart a route that is going to bleed money. Its not about filling the planes, ORD, DFW, JFK, and LAX could fill a daily 77W with India O&D. PHL and MIA could fill a plane 5x weekly with India O&D. None of the above would make any money.

[Edited 2012-12-25 10:00:41]

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: LFutia
Posted 2012-12-25 09:56:55 and read 7376 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 19):
What truth would that be? From a pax perspective, AI's product on the route fares comparably to AA (frankly, whose wouldn't - AA is a bottom-of-the-barrel carrier by international standards).

Both airlines are loss-makers. In AI's defence,it is used as a govt plaything, has aircraft commandeered by the government on a whim, and loses premium seats to bureaucrats, politicians and their families for free. It doesn't even nickel-and-dime like AA. AA on the other hand ... bankrupt, outdated product, poor service. Oh, and its also a "loss-making" airline(I suppose that makes UA, AF etc "garbage" airlines too).

The problem with your argument (aside from the gratuitous insults) is that "nice cabins" and low fares tend to fare well, particularly against the likes of AA (at least until the 773 cabins become the norm, not to mention a wholesale change in the catering etc).

I hope AA does well and I hope it starts the route again. But for that to happen, it will have to match the nice cabin and low fares. Letting consumers decide can be a real problem for some airlines.

I guess I had too many bad experiences with Air India, I just find a reason to trash them at any time.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 20):
The fact that UA has been headquartered in Chicago for many years doesn't mean that UA has stronger ties. AA has generally been the #2 carrier at ORD, as long as I can remember, which goes back to the mid 60s. While UA has the naming rights for the home arena of the Bulls and Blackhawks, in terms of corporate sponserships in Chicagoland, AA and UA are pretty even.

My response was kind of half-assed. In terms of service to Chicago, United is the biggest one over AA. United has many more destinations than AA does from Chicago.

Leo/ORD

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: AA94
Posted 2012-12-25 10:19:12 and read 7260 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 22):
If he does (which I believe), he wont restart a route that is going to bleed money. Its not about filling the planes, ORD, DFW, JFK, and LAX could fill a daily 77W with India O&D. PHL and MIA could fill a plane 5x weekly with India O&D. None of the above would make any money.

  

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: manny
Posted 2012-12-25 10:28:15 and read 7422 times.

Quoting LFutia (Reply 13):
no need to do a search, its Air India's cheap cheap fares that pushed AA out. Just because it has a nice cabin doesnt mean anything. Its still a loss making carrier. Flight goes out empty all the time. United has stronger ties to Chicago than AA does.

Still does not explain why you called Air India a garbage airline.

Air India's fares were on part with AA's on this route. People who travel ie the passengers do not have an acute interest in the detailed balance sheet of the airline when they make bookings.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: mah4546
Posted 2012-12-25 10:42:21 and read 7408 times.

Quoting etops1 (Reply 18):
US has stated before that DEL and Mumbai were a possibility once more AC were acquired . Well since US management will most likely be run the new AA and more AC will be available , I can see them restarting the route . It could be out of ORD, it could be out of DFW . Hell it could be out of PHL . Who knows ? You guys need to chill with all the US bashing . Every time someone mentions anything about US in reference to AA you guys get all defensive . Face it ! US is taking over AA but keeping the AA name . Doug Parker will likely be the new CEO of AA ! Get use to it ! Now go along boys and girls . And enjoy your little AA as it was for the remaining part of 2012 because once 2013 rolls in , The sign at AA hq in DFW is gonna read " Under New Management " .. Merry Christmas  

You are living in a fantasyland of eight months ago. It's crystal clear that AMR's performance during bankruptcy has been outstanding. And while a US/AA merger remains an extremely likely outcome, it's becoming more and more likely AA will be running the show.

But disregarding the above fact, U.S.-India yields suck and Air India is so propped up by the government, it's difficult to compete with it.

The United States is a huge market to India - Miami-Bombay itself is large enough to support a flight - but yield sucks (from everywhere except maybe SEABLR) and distance is too long.

I do believe AA will be back to India in the 2015-17 time frame, but it's not an easy market to crack.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: LFutia
Posted 2012-12-25 10:47:15 and read 7430 times.

Quoting manny (Reply 25):
Still does not explain why you called Air India a garbage airline.

Air India's fares were on part with AA's on this route. People who travel ie the passengers do not have an acute interest in the detailed balance sheet of the airline when they make bookings.

Have you ever flown Air India? Everything about it from Mangement up just screams garbage. there are other posts in the forums about Air India that echo my thoughts as well.

Leo/ORD

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: 9w748capt
Posted 2012-12-25 10:51:55 and read 7379 times.

Quoting thekennady (Reply 17):

AFAIK AI does not sell any through-connections on the ORD end via codeshare or other mechanism. Now if you go to expedia or orbitz, you can purchase a ticket from a 3rd city and connect to AI, but there would be no actual through-ticket i.e. OKC-ORD on AA and ORD-DEL on AI would be two separate tickets bought together.

Quoting etops1 (Reply 5):

I have trouble believing that - I'd bet AA is more than happy shunting their India-bound pax through LHR, AUH, and to a lesser extent AMM, especially since AA now codeshares with BA's LHR-India flights.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: 9w748capt
Posted 2012-12-25 10:55:56 and read 7379 times.

Quoting manny (Reply 11):
What's ironic is the "garbage" airline actually elbowed out AA from the DEL route. What does that say about AA ?

And do a photo search on the cabin interiors of the new 777's that are used by AI on this route before posting such an ignorant comment.

I'd suggest you read up a little bit about how AI does business. When you look at how AI operates (unlimited government/taxpayer bailouts to prop up an "airline" that's basically just a politicians' toy) versus a legitimate business like AA that, you know, is actually trying to sustain itself and make a profit, you'll see why AA is in an impossible situation. When you consider that it's no shocker that AA thought better of it but decided it just wasn't worth it chasing the junk fares, especially if the F/J cabin wasn't making up for it. Indians are notoriously cheap so that's no shocker either. The funny thing is Indians are now well aware of the poor service on AI. I'm looking at going to India in February and AI prices $200 less than competitors, but it's well worth it to spend the little extra, earn miles I can actually use, and know I'm supporting a legitimate business and not a stuffing GoI coffers. And while the pictures of AI's cabin might look nice compared to AA - I can vouch that AA's ORD-DEL offering was not bad at all - they clearly made an effort to appeal to their Indian customers (excellent Indian food for dinner/breakfast). Throw in 15K EQM for a roundtrip and it was a great deal, until AI started undercutting in full force.

[Edited 2012-12-25 10:57:53]

[Edited 2012-12-25 11:00:05]

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: manny
Posted 2012-12-25 15:08:21 and read 6736 times.

Quoting LFutia (Reply 27):
Have you ever flown Air India? Everything about it from Mangement up just screams garbage. there are other posts in the forums about Air India that echo my thoughts as well.

Deflect much ?

From a passengers point of view I would rather fly AI than AA.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: manny
Posted 2012-12-25 15:21:05 and read 6703 times.

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 29):
I'd suggest you read up a little bit about how AI does business. When you look at how AI operates (unlimited government/taxpayer bailouts to prop up an "airline" that's basically just a politicians' toy) versus a legitimate business like AA that, you know, is actually trying to sustain itself and make a profit, you'll see why AA is in an impossible situation. When you consider that it's no shocker that AA thought better of it but decided it just wasn't worth it chasing the junk fares, especially if the F/J cabin wasn't making up for it. Indians are notoriously cheap so that's no shocker either. The funny thing is Indians are now well aware of the poor service on AI. I'm looking at going to India in February and AI prices $200 less than competitors, but it's well worth it to spend the little extra, earn miles I can actually use, and know I'm supporting a legitimate business and not a stuffing GoI coffers. And while the pictures of AI's cabin might look nice compared to AA - I can vouch that AA's ORD-DEL offering was not bad at all - they clearly made an effort to appeal to their Indian customers (excellent Indian food for dinner/breakfast). Throw in 15K EQM for a roundtrip and it was a great deal, until AI started undercutting in full force.

You sure do know how to go off tangent. Not everyone flying is an aviation enthusiast with an airliners.net subscription. In general the flying masses have no idea about the balance sheet of the airline they are flying. They focus on things like product offering, price, convenient timings et al. So what you say is pointless,

I have flown both AA and AI (although twice on the EWR-BOM) nonstops. AA was outright pathetic and that too in J. It felt like i was doing them a favor by flying with them. And i am not even going to mention the outdated J product offering. AI on the other hand was miles better and will get my business in the future. The government employed aunties were much more focused on service that their private, legitimate, bankrupt airline counterparts.

Now i know its fashionable to criticize AI in these parts. And there is some deserved criticism too. But that does not mean all of the it is true. This is one such instance. As a paying customer I would hand them my business again.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2012-12-25 15:56:17 and read 6621 times.

AI defenders need to do a reality check. Big picture look, and it is indeed a crap airline. Comparing its interior cabin views to that of AA's tells you absolutely nothing about the things that matter, I.e. how well the airline is run and managed. I still cannot believe how many AI apologists exist on these forums after the Star Alliance debacle. Definition of embarassment to the namesake of Air India and the GOI and exposure on how corrupt and incapable the Indian Aviation ministry is.

However, one can choose to accept these facts as reality and choose with their wallets: that I have no issue with. While AA by no means is a winner airline, it is incorrect to claim that AI edged them out for being an all around superior airline. That is 100% false.

For the record, the UA flights from EWR to BOM and DEL are sustained thanks to the sheer size of the NYC-India market. That and pmCO smartly configured the aircraft with the right mix of Y/J pax from the get go, which was an advantage AA did not have with the 777s. From what I'd heard, most of the F cabin on AA Chicago-Delhi were filled with non revs and mileage burners, relatively little of those seats were actually paid.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2012-12-25 17:04:41 and read 6481 times.

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 29):
Indians are notoriously cheap so that's no shocker either.

I beg your pardon?

Indians are "notoriously cheap"? Given that most (if not all) airlines don't have a problem filling premium cabins (India-UK is one of the larger premium heavy markets out there and EK claims 30% of its traffic out of India is premium traffic), I take that to mean that Indian's won't pay top dollar for a product if they can get a similar product for less? If so, what's wrong with that? Indians are notorious for seeking value-for-money. Are they "cheap" for choosing to fly AY at $3500 when AA wants $4500? Or are they smarter for it?

The cheapness does serve Indians well - savings rates in India are much higher than they are in the ...err.. uncheap west, where household debt is a way of life. I don't know who's smarter, the one who pays less and focuses on what he can afford in the here and now, or the one who pays more on the assumption that he'll pay it off eventually.

Lets avoid the sweeping blanket statements, shall we.

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 29):
The funny thing is Indians are now well aware of the poor service on AI.

And always have been. I've flown AI a handful of times, mostly domestically. My only international experience with them was in the summer of 2010, when a J/Y combo cost me less than AC in Y (~1500) for LHR-YYZ. It was a very pleasant experience. Am I cheap for choosing a J/Y combo that cost less than AC in Y? Or smarter for it? Cheap has negative connotations that I simply can't ignore, so I must ask.

AI traditionally serves the most price-sensitive (read least affluent) segment in India. Its not exactly the airline of choice, despite its low prices.

I daresay AA's failure on this route has less to do with AA undercutting it in Y, and more to do with the significantly better one-stop options available on the European and Asian carriers serving the route. AI operates on many routes, and typically caters to a class of travellers who would be priced out of the market otherwise.

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 29):
I can vouch that AA's ORD-DEL offering was not bad at all

I don't doubt it, but I must ask -how did the baggage allowance compare? Indians may be "notoriously cheap", but they sure do love stocking up and taking stuff with them to India. Perhaps they just figure that they could use the savings on the ticket to take even more stuff home?

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 32):
Comparing its interior cabin views to that of AA's tells you absolutely nothing about the things that matter, I.e. how well the airline is run and managed.

Ummm...if you are buying a ticket to fly from point A to point B, what matters? The price of the ticket, or the airline's balance sheet? If you're an MBA studying airlines or looking to invest in airlines, you may be right. But on the face of it, even the most basic economics course will teach you that most humans will choose a cheaper substitute when available. If you're flying solely on the basis of the balance sheet, then, given the state of the aviation industry in general, good luck flying an airline that meets your criteria of "things that matter". Many of them are running losses. AI is hardly the only one.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 32):
I still cannot believe how many AI apologists exist on these forums after the Star Alliance debacle.

Not an apologist at all. I've flown them once internationally in my life (largely out of curiosity and the fact that the price was right - a curious side effect of being an aviation enthusiast). That said, anyone who's been to India knows the clientele that AI caters to. There are few airlines in the world that are as well-equipped to cater to this particular type of Indian clientele (lets call them not particularly well-travelled or worldly - I can think of a great many western airlines that wouldn't know what to do with them) and allows them to do so without breaking the bank. Its an enabler of sorts, albeit a bloody expensive one for Indian taxpayers.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 32):
While AA by no means is a winner airline, it is incorrect to claim that AI edged them out for being an all around superior airline. That is 100% false.

Nobody said it is an all-round superior airline. However, in terms of pax in-flight experience, I suspect AI is at least as good as AA. Easily substitutable. Lower Price. Result?

That aside, the thing I find most amusing (in an absurd sort of way) is the belief that AI edged out AA on this route. Come off it. AA lost because of competition from the one-stops, which offer pretty good service at more competitive prices. AI generally serves a market that is so low-yielding that losing that segment to AI can only be a good thing for AA.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: manny
Posted 2012-12-25 18:12:09 and read 6321 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 32):
AI defenders need to do a reality check. Big picture look, and it is indeed a crap airline. Comparing its interior cabin views to that of AA's tells you absolutely nothing about the things that matter, I.e. how well the airline is run and managed.

You need to get a reality check. In general passengers do not focus on who owns the airline or the state of the balance sheet. What they care about is the timings, price, product offering depending on an individual's priority. Any airline that meets that criteria is the one that is chosen. Period.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: gigneil
Posted 2012-12-25 18:30:52 and read 6285 times.

Quoting LFutia (Reply 10):
I wonder if United could make it work, but I'm sure would take a way a lot of feed from Lufthansa and Star carriers that serve Chicago.

If they make it work, its going to be a 787.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 19):
Oh, and its also a "loss-making" airline(I suppose that makes UA, AF etc "garbage" airlines too).

United prints cash these days. So does Delta.

Quoting AA94 (Reply 21):
On an aside, can anyone elaborate on how UA's EWR-DEL route does? I don't know anything about the market, and it would be useful to hear how the only US carrier does on their US-India flights.

I can elaborate on what I've heard - route planning at UA likes India half the year, and hates it the other half, which is why they are enthusiastic about a fleet of 787s. The idea is to fly the 777 on India when they can, and fly the 787 when they can't.

NS

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2012-12-25 19:00:37 and read 6221 times.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 35):
United prints cash these days. So does Delta.

I know DL does. I didn't know UA was back in the black. That aside, many airlines are still losing money.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2012-12-25 19:45:59 and read 6123 times.

Quoting manny (Reply 31):
You sure do know how to go off tangent. Not everyone flying is an aviation enthusiast with an airliners.net subscription. In general the flying masses have no idea about the balance sheet of the airline they are flying. They focus on things like product offering, price, convenient timings et al. So what you say is pointless,
Quoting manny (Reply 30):
Deflect much ?

From a passengers point of view I would rather fly AI than AA.

Not off tangent at all. I believe you were the one who originally made the claim that AI edged AA out of the market implying that they were able to do so by being the all around superior airline, which is incorrect. The point we're all trying to prove here is that AI pretty much won out a dirty war in this entire situation and give you some background detail, but at the end of the day, its obviously not all that important to you because you like the AI product, which is fine.

What I think is important to point out here is that you made a statement that implied something and you had a few posters provide a few clarifying points. It's unfair to state that those details are irrelevant or off-topic because indeed, they are.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 33):
I beg your pardon?

Indians are "notoriously cheap"? Given that most (if not all) airlines don't have a problem filling premium cabins (India-UK is one of the larger premium heavy markets out there and EK claims 30% of its traffic out of India is premium traffic), I take that to mean that Indian's won't pay top dollar for a product if they can get a similar product for less? If so, what's wrong with that? Indians are notorious for seeking value-for-money. Are they "cheap" for choosing to fly AY at $3500 when AA wants $4500? Or are they smarter for it?

The statement he made has some truth to it, but it can be qualified (or pertain mostly) to VFR traffic heading to India. Even still, it also really does depend on the country of origin. Canada - India, for example, will have a much lower concentration of premium traffic/average fares than USA-India and Europe-India.

Case in point: Air Canada could not sustain a nonstop Toronto to Delhi flight, nor could they do this via Zurich a few years later. Conversely, the SWISS flight from Zurich to Delhi is one of the most profitable/highest-yielding routes in the entire LX longhaul network.

I'm also inclined to believe that EK can also command a decent premium on their Indian routes because EK is a popular option for wealthier Indians living and residing in India. My point being, it really needs to be analyzed on a case-by-case basis rather than be viewed as a characterization applied as a whole.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 33):
I daresay AA's failure on this route has less to do with AA undercutting it in Y, and more to do with the significantly better one-stop options available on the European and Asian carriers serving the route. AI operates on many routes, and typically caters to a class of travellers who would be priced out of the market otherwise.

No. The demise of the route had pretty much everything to do with AI's entrance. AA itself has alluded to this reason as being the dagger in the heart. ORD has been connected to India via many one-stop options in Europe and Asia long before AA/AI entered the nonstop market - those had little to no bearing on its performance. In fact, the nonstop, if anything, gave AA a competitive advantage over them.

Another data point is that AA existed on this route for a good 5 years before AI came in, and with the two competing side-by-side, AA quickly had to drop down from daily to six weekly to null within a single year pretty much.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: dirtyfrankd
Posted 2012-12-25 19:57:31 and read 6105 times.

I realize that the Indian market is a high volume and low yield market, and that it's difficult to make a profit on unless planes are configured the right way. With costs restructured as a result of Ch.11, and newly reconfigured 772s without F cabins, wouldn't AA be able to serve the Indian market again, this time profitably?

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2012-12-25 19:59:49 and read 6111 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 33):
I don't doubt it, but I must ask -how did the baggage allowance compare? Indians may be "notoriously cheap", but they sure do love stocking up and taking stuff with them to India. Perhaps they just figure that they could use the savings on the ticket to take even more stuff home?

Everything is available in India now. The concept of bringing frivolous items back has become obsolete, although it still nevertheless happens. My inclination is that those who do opt for this tend to fly on the airlines with more liberal luggage allowances such as EY. But yes, this was/is an advantage of AI.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 33):
Ummm...if you are buying a ticket to fly from point A to point B, what matters? The price of the ticket, or the airline's balance sheet? If you're an MBA studying airlines or looking to invest in airlines, you may be right. But on the face of it, even the most basic economics course will teach you that most humans will choose a cheaper substitute when available. If you're flying solely on the basis of the balance sheet, then, given the state of the aviation industry in general, good luck flying an airline that meets your criteria of "things that matter". Many of them are running losses. AI is hardly the only one.

I was saying this in response to a poster who used the example of comparing cabin interiors between AI and AA in J as a method to explain why AA was "edged out" of ORDDEL.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 33):
That said, anyone who's been to India knows the clientele that AI caters to. There are few airlines in the world that are as well-equipped to cater to this particular type of Indian clientele (lets call them not particularly well-travelled or worldly - I can think of a great many western airlines that wouldn't know what to do with them) and allows them to do so without breaking the bank. Its an enabler of sorts, albeit a bloody expensive one for Indian taxpayers.

This statement made me LOL.

What type of "Indian clientele" does AI cater to? The same type that view the airline as a complete dog? Please don't put AI on par with the likes of Singapore Airlines or Cathay Pacific when it comes to public perception. AI has not been, and unlikely will ever be again, viewed as one of the world's premier network airlines. It can't even meet basic requirements join an alliance, a feat Aerolineas Argentinas and EgyptAir have been able to accomplish recently. Pathetic.

As far as the "great many western airlines" that have served India, explain the long-time presence of Delta, Northwest-KLM, BA, Lufthansa, CO-UA, etc. that have been around forever?

Quoting manny (Reply 34):
You need a reality check. In general passengers do not focus on who owns the airline or the state of the balance sheet. What they care about is the timings, price, product offering depending on an individual's priority. Any airline that meets that criteria is the one that is chosen. Period.

That may be true, but it doesn't take away from the fact that despite having pretty much every advantage in the world it could ask for, AI still continues to demonstrate failure at its finest with consistent ease. You can fly them until they'll inevitably disappoint and not meet your criteria. Meanwhile, I'll take the last laugh.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: LFutia
Posted 2012-12-25 21:59:03 and read 5957 times.

Quoting manny (Reply 30):
Deflect much ?

From a passengers point of view I would rather fly AI than AA.

Does it matter much? If I say yes to being Indian, I get asked 5000 questions. I would rather say I'm from Suriname and use my Dutch accent than answer 5000 questions and for you to divulge into my life.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 33):
Indians are "notoriously cheap"? Given that most (if not all) airlines don't have a problem filling premium cabins (India-UK is one of the larger premium heavy markets out there and EK claims 30% of its traffic out of India is premium traffic), I take that to mean that Indian's won't pay top dollar for a product if they can get a similar product for less? If so, what's wrong with that? Indians are notorious for seeking value-for-money. Are they "cheap" for choosing to fly AY at $3500 when AA wants $4500? Or are they smarter for it?

Indians are nortoriously cheap. Come to the US and when an Indian sees another Indian they'll ask you for something and then ask for a discount. Trust me I've been there.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 33):
I don't doubt it, but I must ask -how did the baggage allowance compare? Indians may be "notoriously cheap", but they sure do love stocking up and taking stuff with them to India. Perhaps they just figure that they could use the savings on the ticket to take even more stuff home?

It may be available but since Air India has such a high baggage allowance, You will still see Indians taking cookery home with them!

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 33):
Ummm...if you are buying a ticket to fly from point A to point B, what matters? The price of the ticket, or the airline's balance sheet? If you're an MBA studying airlines or looking to invest in airlines, you may be right. But on the face of it, even the most basic economics course will teach you that most humans will choose a cheaper substitute when available. If you're flying solely on the basis of the balance sheet, then, given the state of the aviation industry in general, good luck flying an airline that meets your criteria of "things that matter". Many of them are running losses. AI is hardly the only one.

If I was buying a ticket, I'd look at the airline first and decide. Personally I'd choose EU carriers first, then American carriers and then Air India. But I fly KLM when possible.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 33):
Not an apologist at all. I've flown them once internationally in my life

Well aren't you a big man! Try dealing with the passengers on a daily basis.

Leo/ORD

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: thekennady
Posted 2012-12-26 00:59:29 and read 5820 times.

Everything else aside, its nice to see ORD have a Nonstop flight the India. Only 1 other metro and 2 other airports in north America can say that. Personally id love to see AA back on ORD-DEL. But with more gulf carriers comming to ORD and the European carriers and AI all pulling traffic to India, it surely isnt a top priority for AA right now.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2012-12-26 01:12:10 and read 5806 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 37):
The statement he made has some truth to it, but it can be qualified (or pertain mostly) to VFR traffic heading to India. Even still, it also really does depend on the country of origin. Canada - India, for example, will have a much lower concentration of premium traffic/average fares than USA-India and Europe-India.

Case in point: Air Canada could not sustain a nonstop Toronto to Delhi flight, nor could they do this via Zurich a few years later. Conversely, the SWISS flight from Zurich to Delhi is one of the most profitable/highest-yielding routes in the entire LX longhaul network.

I'm quite familiar with the Indian diaspora in Canada, what with being one of them. Canada's Indian population is simply not as affluent as its American counterparts, largely due to Canada's immigration policies - the Americans focused on a different caliber of folk and Canada has only come around to changing its criteria now. It has other curious side effects - the perception of India in Canada is a lot more negative than that in the US, which says a lot about the relative quality of the diaspora.

I've also had the misfortune of flying that direct flight in summer 2004. Suffice it to say, the AC ULH product (no IFE, awful catering) at the time was enough to put me off ultra long haul flying for good. I know IFE has gotten better, but with catering at AC going the way it has, the last thing I want is a 15 hour flight with kiddie meals.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 37):
Another data point is that AA existed on this route for a good 5 years before AI came in, and with the two competing side-by-side, AA quickly had to drop down from daily to six weekly to null within a single year pretty much.

AI has been serving ORD for a long time, albeit one-stop. Given its poor reputation, I m surprised people made the switch. How much were they undercutting AA by? That said, if they're offering a product comparable to AA (read easily substitutable), then either AI has something going for it, or AA doesnt.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 39):
Everything is available in India now. The concept of bringing frivolous items back has become obsolete, although it still nevertheless happens. My inclination is that those who do opt for this tend to fly on the airlines with more liberal luggage allowances such as EY. But yes, this was/is an advantage of AI.

Oh I know that, but old habits die hard. I've just completed a Delhi run that saw me leave with two checked in bags and return with one. Some of the stuff I was carrying may not be available in Delhi (I didn't think of checking), but most of it is, albeit with a little effort. Cheese and chocolates... you know the drill. Kind of painful, since Cheese is probably more expensive in Canada than it is in India, what with Canada's penchant for controlling supply of milk (like airline seats). Free market and all that. Granted, I was on VS, which also has liberal baggage policies for India (2 pieces in Y, 3 pieces in Y+).

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 39):
I was saying this in response to a poster who used the example of comparing cabin interiors between AI and AA in J as a method to explain why AA was "edged out" of ORDDEL.

I fail to see what is wrong with that reasoning. If AI offers a comparable or superior product at a similar price, its bound to edge out the competition eventually, no?

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 39):
What type of "Indian clientele" does AI cater to? The same type that view the airline as a complete dog? Please don't put AI on par with the likes of Singapore Airlines or Cathay Pacific when it comes to public perception. AI has not been, and unlikely will ever be again, viewed as one of the world's premier network airlines. It can't even meet basic requirements join an alliance, a feat Aerolineas Argentinas and EgyptAir have been able to accomplish recently. Pathetic.

The ...errr...type of passengers who dominate the ME routes. Not exactly premium - in fact, quite the opposite. I don't want to say too much, lest I come across as the South Delhi folk I've been happily mocking for the past couple of weeks. You know the type - first time flyers, not particularly fluent in English (or at all), intimidated by westerners, not particularly affluent, not well-versed in the intricacies of international travel etc. Not sure how you decided I put AI on par with SQ and CX when, really, I was putting them on par with Indian Railways. My favorite experience was a middle aged first time flyer who, after the rattle of take-off, mistook the smooth ride at altitude as an indication that the plane had stopped, and asked the F/A why the plane had stopped and how long it would be delayed. AI is, In my opinion, more capable of comprehending and addressing a situation like that than some airlines. Fluency in language, fluency in cultural practices and expectations etc. Personally, I m an avowed member of the 9W fan club, though their decision to go 3-4-3 on the 777 has alienated me to a great degree.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 39):
As far as the "great many western airlines" that have served India, explain the long-time presence of Delta, Northwest-KLM, BA, Lufthansa, CO-UA, etc. that have been around forever?

Don't be disingenuous. Different segments of the middle class (in the way that only India can succeed in stratifying the middle class) explain that statement. The EU airlines have always been more popular with the so-called upper middle class and above, while the lower middle class and below have always favored AI (possibly because its the only airline they can afford). You know just as well as I do the utter contempt with which AI is viewed in the marginally moneyed (and above) sections of society. AI caters to the folk who can't afford BA, LH etc.

Quoting LFutia (Reply 40):
Indians are nortoriously cheap. Come to the US and when an Indian sees another Indian they'll ask you for something and then ask for a discount. Trust me I've been there.

Ok. And? In Pacific Mall in Toronto, the Chinese haggle with the...err...Chinese. Indians and white folk join in too. Ask Russell Peters. Notoriously cheap? That explains the influx of luxury brands in India over the past few years. Personally, I will defend that notorious cheapness if only because it also means that household debt in India is much lower than it is in ...err...uncheap countries, where people are living beyond their means most of the time.

Quoting LFutia (Reply 40):
If I was buying a ticket, I'd look at the airline first and decide. Personally I'd choose EU carriers first, then American carriers and then Air India. But I fly KLM when possible.

Of course you would. But there is a whole breed of VFR traffic out there that travels once a year and sees flying as getting from point A to point B. Personally, I am not convinced that this price-sensitive VFR traffic has enough clout to push AA off any route, but others suggest otherwise, so who knows?

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: aacun
Posted 2012-12-26 04:47:52 and read 5679 times.

Mr. Robert Crandall has been spotted near pilot ops frequently lately here in Miami. And he has been talking to people. What his future plans are? No one is certain, but wouldnt it be funny if HE was the one who actually ends up running this show again.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: JCWR56
Posted 2012-12-26 05:01:35 and read 5636 times.

Interesting topic, but having casual dicussions with folks down south, it's not even on the radar.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: jfk777
Posted 2012-12-26 05:11:26 and read 5629 times.

With all the bankruptcy things going on at AA returning to India is far down their list of concerns. When they went BK Dehli was the first long haul route they killed.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: SATexan
Posted 2012-12-26 07:48:00 and read 5556 times.

AA failed on ORD-DEL for numerous reasons:

1. The 777s with a premium heavy configuration was a big factor.
2. The crew costs did not help AA.
3. The fuel costs during the entire time AA operated this flight was highly volatile.
4. For an airline in BK it made perfect sense to offload some flights to save money and chopping DEL was a no brainer

That being said, AA had gained traction in the USA-IND market. The flight was almost always packed. The market will be a perfect fit for 787 and I really hope AA brings DEL back and hopefully BOM or BLR at some point. People like me who prefer to not make a stopover in Europe or ME while travelling to India would much appreciate that.

Quoting LFutia (Reply 40):
Indians are nortoriously cheap.
Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 29):
Indians are notoriously cheap so that's no shocker either.

Total Rubbish. Stores like Best Buy, A&F/Gap and the city of Niagara Falls among many others should write a big 'Thank You' letter to the Indians for keeping their economies going! You do see that the average population of Indians in USA is probably in the 20s with the explosion of Indians in the technology workforce. They carry more fancy gadgets and travel way more than Americans. It is not like Indians walk in to an airline sales office and start haggling over the airfares. If a 'deal' is available on a booking site or with a travel agent, they will take it. If a 'deal' is not available they will crib about it but purchase it anyway. What is wrong with that? Isn't that the way the rest of the world does business too? If there is a 'deal', why would you pay more? Americans love Groupon and Black Friday shopping. Does that make them 'notoriously cheaper' too?

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: vin2basketball
Posted 2012-12-26 08:28:41 and read 5443 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 26):

You are living in a fantasyland of eight months ago. It's crystal clear that AMR's performance during bankruptcy has been outstanding. And while a US/AA merger remains an extremely likely outcome, it's becoming more and more likely AA will be running the show.

But disregarding the above fact, U.S.-India yields suck and Air India is so propped up by the government, it's difficult to compete with it.

The United States is a huge market to India - Miami-Bombay itself is large enough to support a flight - but yield sucks (from everywhere except maybe SEABLR) and distance is too long.

I do believe AA will be back to India in the 2015-17 time frame, but it's not an easy market to crack.


BLR-SFO is huge and high yield, BLR-Texas is decent yield, as are BLR-NYC, -- pretty much BLR is the strongest yielding India-US market

MIA-BOM could work if optimized for connections to Latin America (this is more of a 3-5 yrs down the road kind of view)

UA will likely launch EWR-BLR/MAA (maybe even HYD) with the 787. Especially if 9W joins * they could also beef up BOM.

In terms of ORD, DEL is the bigger VFR market, BOM is the bigger biz market and if/when 9W joins *, ORD-BOM would be a better choice for UA, though it might require the 789.

SFO-BLR with the 789 would literally print money.

DL is having a tough time -- theyve basically retreated to the PMNW via AMS tool - it'll be tough for them before they get 787s to expand much.

In terms of AA, it is likely that they will return; given the volume on the route, it might be better to go with a high density 772.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 32):
AI defenders need to do a reality check. Big picture look, and it is indeed a crap airline. Comparing its interior cabin views to that of AA's tells you absolutely nothing about the things that matter, I.e. how well the airline is run and managed. I still cannot believe how many AI apologists exist on these forums after the Star Alliance debacle. Definition of embarassment to the namesake of Air India and the GOI and exposure on how corrupt and incapable the Indian Aviation ministry is.

However, one can choose to accept these facts as reality and choose with their wallets: that I have no issue with. While AA by no means is a winner airline, it is incorrect to claim that AI edged them out for being an all around superior airline. That is 100% false.

For the record, the UA flights from EWR to BOM and DEL are sustained thanks to the sheer size of the NYC-India market. That and pmCO smartly configured the aircraft with the right mix of Y/J pax from the get go, which was an advantage AA did not have with the 777s. From what I'd heard, most of the F cabin on AA Chicago-Delhi were filled with non revs and mileage burners, relatively little of those seats were actually paid.

  

Quoting gigneil (Reply 35):
If they make it work, its going to be a 787.

  

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2012-12-26 10:44:03 and read 5234 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 42):
I'm quite familiar with the Indian diaspora in Canada, what with being one of them. Canada's Indian population is simply not as affluent as its American counterparts, largely due to Canada's immigration policies - the Americans focused on a different caliber of folk and Canada has only come around to changing its criteria now. It has other curious side effects - the perception of India in Canada is a lot more negative than that in the US, which says a lot about the relative quality of the diaspora.

Well, I think that just sheds some light on a greater challenge that Canada will face as a whole in the next 5-10 years with regards to the roles that its immigrant communities (and not just the Indian one) play in the country and whether or not there is greater solidarity into how each individual is perceived and treated by the community as a whole.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 42):
AI has been serving ORD for a long time, albeit one-stop. Given its poor reputation, I m surprised people made the switch. How much were they undercutting AA by? That said, if they're offering a product comparable to AA (read easily substitutable), then either AI has something going for it, or AA doesnt.

AI was offering dirt cheap J and F fares on this route. People would purchase separate reservations between XXX and ORD and fly r/t on AI from ORD to DEL (or wherever beyond).

AI also has a much lower operating cost than AA, yet it is still hemorrhaging cash on their n/s flights to the US.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 42):
I fail to see what is wrong with that reasoning. If AI offers a comparable or superior product at a similar price, its bound to edge out the competition eventually, no?

Again, I don't understand what is so difficult to understand here: it is not the product that wins. It is the financial viability of the airline that dictates whether or not the route will last.

You have a fully state-owned airline whose government will bail them out of anything. You have a privately-owned carrier who is restructuring under bankruptcy protection and is losing millions of dollars annually on the same route, but faces a different type of pressure else liquidate. Where does product matter in any of this?

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 42):
I don't want to say too much, lest I come across as the South Delhi folk I've been happily mocking for the past couple of weeks. You know the type - first time flyers, not particularly fluent in English (or at all), intimidated by westerners, not particularly affluent, not well-versed in the intricacies of international travel etc.

That is a stereotype. My family has lived in South Delhi since the 1940's and have been traveling globally since the 1950's. They also speak perfect English. I suggest avoiding mis-characterizations on these forums lest you're willing to be called out/corrected publicly about this.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 42):
Don't be disingenuous. Different segments of the middle class (in the way that only India can succeed in stratifying the middle class) explain that statement. The EU airlines have always been more popular with the so-called upper middle class and above, while the lower middle class and below have always favored AI (possibly because its the only airline they can afford). You know just as well as I do the utter contempt with which AI is viewed in the marginally moneyed (and above) sections of society. AI caters to the folk who can't afford BA, LH etc.

This is a stretch, and again a stereotype. The Indian aviation market has been turned on its head so many times over the past 15 years, you can't possibly make the claim that passenger preferences have been entrenched in a certain way over the years simply due to social strata.

Up until recently, the EU airlines were pretty much the only means of travel between North America and India. You used to also have NW, DL and UA operating 5th freedom services between AMS/LHR/FRA/CDG and DEL/BOM. Then, things changed quite a bit: nonstop services began, first on AC, then CO, then AA, then DL and meanwhile, the gulf carriers by means of EK, EY and QR expanded into the Americas and flooded the Indian markets with dirt cheap fares. Then, AI and 9W began nonstop or direct flights to the US, and IT also had plans (which never materialized).

Since then, AC, DL, AA and 9W have exited the nonstop/direct markets. AI has suspended/modified a few, the European carriers (namely LH) has withdrawn from several Indian cities, and the Middle Eastern airlines continue to add capacity.

In my opinion, those are too many changes to reflect which airlines are winning based purely on product and passenger mixes and instead, the dynamics reflect market pressures and the competitive environment as a whole.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: 9w748capt
Posted 2012-12-26 10:59:32 and read 5220 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 33):
Lets avoid the sweeping blanket statements, shall we.

Dude get off your high horse and don't be so sensitive. I thought it was well established that yields on US-India routes are usually pretty poor.

Quoting LFutia (Reply 40):
Indians are nortoriously cheap. Come to the US and when an Indian sees another Indian they'll ask you for something and then ask for a discount. Trust me I've been there.

Maybe "frugal" would be a better word for us to use. Elpistolero is getting quite offended. Like has been said on here many times - despite the large, relatively wealthy Indian diaspora abroad, yields for western airlines to India still continue to be a challenge. That's not to say say Indians don't like spending their money - I'm sure the Honda and Toyota dealers worldwide will attest to that - but as an Indian, yes we are cheap. As a case in point I'm arguing with my mother and sister about why it's worth spending $100 more to fly AA/DL and earn miles we can actually use (well maybe not skypesos) rather than plump for AI. Throwing $1100 in a bonfire would be of better use.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 42):
Oh I know that, but old habits die hard. I've just completed a Delhi run that saw me leave with two checked in bags and return with one. Some of the stuff I was carrying may not be available in Delhi (I didn't think of checking), but most of it is, albeit with a little effort. Cheese and chocolates... you know the drill. Kind of painful, since Cheese is probably more expensive in Canada than it is in India, what with Canada's penchant for controlling supply of milk (like airline seats). Free market and all that. Granted, I was on VS, which also has liberal baggage policies for India (2 pieces in Y, 3 pieces in Y+).

For what it's worth (irrelevant now), AA charged $50 for a second bag. Today DL charges $75 and UA $100.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 42):
Of course you would. But there is a whole breed of VFR traffic out there that travels once a year and sees flying as getting from point A to point B. Personally, I am not convinced that this price-sensitive VFR traffic has enough clout to push AA off any route, but others suggest otherwise, so who knows?

Well maybe you feel differently now that we're farther into this thread, because that is exactly myself and others like IrishAyes are saying. Again I refer to my dear mother, who is more than happy to burn her money on AI because they are cheaper (no other reason), than to think it through the way FFers do. Funny thing is my mom has accrued some AA miles from business trips so I explained that if we take AA to India she'd have enough for a free domestic ticket, yet that's still not enough! And you have a problem when I say Indians are cheap. This is exactly what I mean.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: manny
Posted 2012-12-26 11:08:09 and read 5188 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 37):
Not off tangent at all. I believe you were the one who originally made the claim that AI edged AA out of the market implying that they were able to do so by being the all around superior airline, which is incorrect. The point we're all trying to prove here is that AI pretty much won out a dirty war in this entire situation and give you some background detail, but at the end of the day, its obviously not all that important to you because you like the AI product, which is fine.

What I think is important to point out here is that you made a statement that implied something and you had a few posters provide a few clarifying points. It's unfair to state that those details are irrelevant or off-topic because indeed, they are.

Yes it is off tangent. Way off tangent!

All I see is a lot of apologists. Face it. AI edged AA out of the market. Some posters who spend their lives criticizing AI and make it into an art form may not be able to stomach that. But its the reality. From a passengers viewpoint they do not care what the balance sheet looks like and where the capital comes from. If they cared for such things then airlines like Emirates would not have a single paying passenger. What they care for is the product and the convenience and the cost not where the airline's financing comes from.

Heck if UA/CO were operating an ORD-DEL flight they would have edged AA out of the market. That's how awful the AA long haul product is right now. And I am not even talking about the arrogance of the inflight staff. The legitimate, private business which you guys are touting is bankrupt and cannot even compete even with airlines in its own markets.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: manny
Posted 2012-12-26 11:10:02 and read 5187 times.

Quoting LFutia (Reply 40):
Does it matter much? If I say yes to being Indian, I get asked 5000 questions. I would rather say I'm from Suriname and use my Dutch accent than answer 5000 questions and for you to divulge into my life.

Wow. Just WOW!

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: jfk777
Posted 2012-12-26 11:15:52 and read 5134 times.

Quoting manny (Reply 50):
Heck if UA/CO were operating an ORD-DEL flight they would have edged AA out of the market. That's how awful the AA long haul product is right now.

AA & UA operate almost mirror international routes out of ORD. NRT, PVG, PEK, LHR, and others are flown by both. One route AA surprisingly doesn't fly from ORD but UA does is a city AA owns in USA traffic, that city is Sao Paulo. UA operates the only nonstop ORD to GRU flights daily.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: 9w748capt
Posted 2012-12-26 11:17:00 and read 5121 times.

Quoting manny (Reply 34):
You need to get a reality check. In general passengers do not focus on who owns the airline or the state of the balance sheet. What they care about is the timings, price, product offering depending on an individual's priority. Any airline that meets that criteria is the one that is chosen. Period.

Right back atcha. Which is why despite AA's DEL flights being packed to the gills (clearly some people were choosing to fly them over AI - not to mention you could seamlessly connect anywhere in the USA ex-ORD), they couldn't make it financially viable. Sounds like the timings, price, and product offering were quite satisfactory, at least to the pax filling those flights every night. As stated above by LFutia, AA suffered from a premium heavy cabin and sky-high fuel prices, and AI's entrance was the beginning of the end. But we won't get into how the Indian taxpayers are subsidizing their entire operation because apparently that's what's pointless here.

Quoting JCWR56 (Reply 44):
Interesting topic, but having casual dicussions with folks down south, it's not even on the radar.

Not at all surprised by this. Especially with QR joining oneworld it would be even more pointless for AA to chase junk yields with their own metal. Inevitably AA will place their code on QR's ORD-DOH service similar to what they've done with EY. Combined with their codeshares ex-LHR on BA, that gives them more than sufficient penetration into India. Perhaps AA could even place their code on QR's DOH-India flights? Although if QR is in oneworld, their flights would hopefully earn AA EQM anyway.

Now all oneworld needs is an actual non-bankrupt partner in India. Why is 9W is so obsessed with *A? They'd be a great fit in ow IMHO.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: 9w748capt
Posted 2012-12-26 11:24:13 and read 5077 times.

Quoting manny (Reply 50):
Yes it is off tangent. Way off tangent!

All I see is a lot of apologists. Face it. AI edged AA out of the market. Some posters who spend their lives criticizing AI and make it into an art form may not be able to stomach that. But its the reality. From a passengers viewpoint they do not care what the balance sheet looks like and where the capital comes from. If they cared for such things then airlines like Emirates would not have a single paying passenger. What they care for is the product and the convenience and the cost not where the airline's financing comes from.

Heck if UA/CO were operating an ORD-DEL flight they would have edged AA out of the market. That's how awful the AA long haul product is right now. And I am not even talking about the arrogance of the inflight staff. The legitimate, private business which you guys are touting is bankrupt and cannot even compete even with airlines in its own markets.

Hahahaha, this is what we need to say "WOW" to. Other than a certain other poster active in the Indian Av thread I don't remember seeing quite the lovefest with AI as this. Incredible! Ironically, you're spot on about EK - why do you think governments are finally taking a stand? Just look at Canada restricting their activity in EK and AC aren't on a level playing field and are doing what they can about it. You're right that the average passenger doesn't care, but you're absolutely 110% wrong when you credit AI for edging out AA from DEL, as if AI did it on their own merits and without billions of rupees of Indian taxpayer bailouts to help them along the way. Funny how whenever you want to toot AI's horn that okay, but when the rest of us want to point out the reality of the situation (i.e. how AI is able to sustain itself in the first place), you want no part of it.

UA/CO hasn't even attempted n/s to India out of ORD. Why? #1 they have a goldmine at EWR - if you've been to NJ you'd know that those flights would be successful no matter who was flying them, what a perfect place to fly to India from. And #2 LH offers more than ample service to India from MUC and FRA, so what would be the point? You have to give credit to AA for going out on a limb and even attempting DEL, as usually they're much more conservative.

Again, judging by the loads on AA's ORD-DEL, that route should've definitely succeeded. But as has been mentioned in so many other posts, circumstances just worked against AA in this one.

[Edited 2012-12-26 11:25:08]

[Edited 2012-12-26 11:26:37]

Sorry for the repeated edits, this post just isn't showing up right. Was referring to Canada restricting EK in YYZ above.


[Edited 2012-12-26 11:27:34]

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2012-12-26 11:25:00 and read 5088 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 48):
This is a stretch, and again a stereotype. The Indian aviation market has been turned on its head so many times over the past 15 years, you can't possibly make the claim that passenger preferences have been entrenched in a certain way over the years simply due to social strata.

Yes. And no. I lived in Delhi for the first half of my life and flew abroad quite a bit. While AI was always the cheapest option to LHR, my family never flew them. It was all BA, all the time. Even ended up on a TG flight back when TG was flying 744s on BKK-DEL-LHR (TG 915/916 I think). AI was simply not an option. That stratification has been around for a while. Lets call AI's clientele the 'labour class'. Think ME flights stereotype.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 48):
That is a stereotype. My family has lived in South Delhi since the 1940's and have been traveling globally since the 1950's. They also speak perfect English. I suggest avoiding mis-characterizations on these forums lest you're willing to be called out/corrected publicly about this.

That was just poor editing on my part. South Delhi folk are generally well-travelled (I am one of them, again, which is why I don't shy away from mocking them - theres a South Delhi stereotype thats actually quite accurate, but it has nothing to do with travel, though it does have a lot to do with how they relate to fellow citizens). The sentence after that doesn't refer to South Delhi - it refers to AI's clientele. That said, ask a person from South Delhi if they ever fly AI. I'm willing to bet that even if they do, they'll deny it.  
Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 49):
As a case in point I'm arguing with my mother and sister about why it's worth spending $100 more to fly AA/DL and earn miles we can actually use (well maybe not skypesos) rather than plump for AI. Throwing $1100 in a bonfire would be of better use.

Been there. Done that.  
Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 48):
Up until recently, the EU airlines were pretty much the only means of travel between North America and India.

AI was also an option throughout, via CDG, LHR and FRA. AI has been serving North America for as long as the EU airlines have.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2012-12-26 11:31:03 and read 5052 times.

Quoting manny (Reply 50):
Yes it is off tangent. Way off tangent!

Fine. Suit yourself and believe what you want to believe. No need to throw a tantrum.

Quoting manny (Reply 50):
Heck if UA/CO were operating an ORD-DEL flight they would have edged AA out of the market. That's how awful the AA long haul product is right now. And I am not even talking about the arrogance of the inflight staff. The legitimate, private business which you guys are touting is bankrupt and cannot even compete even with airlines in its own markets.

Yet, UA never went in to fly ORD-DEL. They even announced it pre-9.11 and never went through with it. Way to substantiate a claim with a hypothetical example. That's really convincing.

To your very own point, read this post below:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 52):
AA & UA operate almost mirror international routes out of ORD. NRT, PVG, PEK, LHR, and others are flown by both. One route AA surprisingly doesn't fly from ORD but UA does is a city AA owns in USA traffic, that city is Sao Paulo. UA operates the only nonstop ORD to GRU flights daily.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Quoting manny (Reply 50):
All I see is a lot of apologists. Face it. AI edged AA out of the market.

For the final time, nobody is denying that. All we're trying to reconcile here is that AI's victory shouldn't be viewed as a credit to them being the superior carrier, nor AA being the inferior carrier. It was a dirty war won by a dishonorable victor.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: EddieDude
Posted 2012-12-26 12:15:29 and read 4963 times.

Quoting SATexan (Reply 46):
The market will be a perfect fit for 787 and I really hope AA brings DEL back

Maybe it could also be a good fit for a 2-class 77E with 9-abreast in Y and with a smaller J-class, which is the way AA is going to reconfigure its 77Es?

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 48):
Again, I don't understand what is so difficult to understand here: it is not the product that wins. It is the financial viability of the airline that dictates whether or not the route will last.

You have a fully state-owned airline whose government will bail them out of anything. You have a privately-owned carrier who is restructuring under bankruptcy protection and is losing millions of dollars annually on the same route, but faces a different type of pressure else liquidate. Where does product matter in any of this?

I think we got a bit lost in the argument. Seems to me IrishAyes is talking about whether a route is maintained or kept in the face of costs, management profile, economics, subsidies, etc. and, on the other hand, ElPistolero is only talking about consumers' choice all other things being equal.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: 9w748capt
Posted 2012-12-26 12:21:56 and read 4946 times.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 57):
Maybe it could also be a good fit for a 2-class 77E with 9-abreast in Y and with a smaller J-class, which is the way AA is going to reconfigure its 77Es?

I thought 77Es are also being "upgraded " to 10Y? Could be wrong though...

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2012-12-26 13:01:47 and read 4869 times.

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 54):
Just look at Canada restricting their activity in EK and AC aren't on a level playing field and are doing what they can about it.

Restricting EK had more to do with AC doing LH's bidding than with level playing fields. It spiralled out of control badly for political and ideological reasons, and only one country came out with less than it went in. FWIW, Canada doesn't restrict only EK/ME3 - it also restricts SQ, TK, ET - on the TATL routes in particular, you can pretty much guarantee that no non-European airline will get more than 3 weekly frequency for the first year. The reason for that is not level playing fields - it simply boils down to 'whats in it for AC'. If AC isn't interested in a market, airlines from there are told to jump through hoops (ET gets 2 weekly and has to compete with KL and LH who have daily flights across Canada on Can-ADD). AC isn't interested in any markets east of Europe, except perhaps India when the 787 comes in. Canada won't block AI because AC has identified India as a potential market (the Govt also sees potential for trade with India). If you look at airfares out of Canada, you'll see what a mess it is.

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 54):
Funny how whenever you want to toot AI's horn that okay, but when the rest of us want to point out the reality of the situation (i.e. how AI is able to sustain itself in the first place), you want no part of it.

There's no love for AI, but lets face the reality that this ....exchange...was started by someone calling AI a 'garbage' airline. Is it a badly run airline? Does the sun rise in the east? But that aside, the in-flight product itself is not 'garbage'. The way the company is, may be, but then one should be specific. There are plenty of good people working hard at AI on the aircraft to maintain a pretty reasonable offering. Words like 'garbage' may apply to what corporate management has done, but to apply it to the rank-and-file does a great disservice to people at AI who are doing good work. Theres no question about what a badly run airline it is, but I think they've maintained a pretty good in-flight experience inspite of the bizzare events, chronic mismanagement and battered reputation, and the impact it could have on employee morale.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: caliatenza
Posted 2012-12-26 13:21:18 and read 4842 times.

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 54):

Also AA's codeshares on Cathay and Dragonair gives them an Indian presence

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: manny
Posted 2012-12-26 13:53:03 and read 4775 times.

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 53):
Right back atcha. Which is why despite AA's DEL flights being packed to the gills (clearly some people were choosing to fly them over AI - not to mention you could seamlessly connect anywhere in the USA ex-ORD), they couldn't make it financially viable. Sounds like the timings, price, and product offering were quite satisfactory, at least to the pax filling those flights every night. As stated above by LFutia, AA suffered from a premium heavy cabin and sky-high fuel prices, and AI's entrance was the beginning of the end. But we won't get into how the Indian taxpayers are subsidizing their entire operation because apparently that's what's pointless here.

How can a flight be packed to the gills and then the same flight suffer from premium heavy cabin ?

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: manny
Posted 2012-12-26 13:55:09 and read 4766 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 52):
AA & UA operate almost mirror international routes out of ORD. NRT, PVG, PEK, LHR, and others are flown by both. One route AA surprisingly doesn't fly from ORD but UA does is a city AA owns in USA traffic, that city is Sao Paulo. UA operates the only nonstop ORD to GRU flights daily.

Thats a very general statement. My statement was based on my personal experiences. I would choose the UA premium product any day any time over the AA 'if you can call it premium' product.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: manny
Posted 2012-12-26 13:59:56 and read 4757 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 56):
Fine. Suit yourself and believe what you want to believe. No need to throw a tantrum.

Its not a tantrum its a true observation. If you want to see what a tantrum looks like check out the statement below:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 56):
It was a dirty war won by a dishonorable victor.

Now you see what a tantrum looks like.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 56):
For the final time, nobody is denying that. All we're trying to reconcile here is that AI's victory shouldn't be viewed as a credit to them being the superior carrier, nor AA being the inferior carrier.
AA was indeed the inferior carrier on this route. From a passengers viewpoint i care for the product offering not the balance sheet.

[Edited 2012-12-26 14:17:51]

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-12-26 14:17:22 and read 4736 times.

Quoting manny (Reply 61):
How can a flight be packed to the gills and then the same flight suffer from premium heavy cabin ?

Average paid fare.

AI is a plaything for the Indian government. They dont have to make a profit and they know it. They charge bottom feeder prices that no other (non-proped up) carrier can profitably match. Yet, 40% of AI's total international losses still come from NYC, YYZ, and ORD. If AI was about trying to make the carrier profitable, it would leave North America completely or raise fares and hope for the best.

Thats not to say AI doesnt have better in flight service than AA, it does. However, its still the Indian govermnents chance to play airline.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: AA94
Posted 2012-12-26 14:42:33 and read 4714 times.

Quoting manny (Reply 50):
All I see is a lot of apologists. Face it. AI edged AA out of the market. Some posters who spend their lives criticizing AI and make it into an art form may not be able to stomach that. But its the reality. From a passengers viewpoint they do not care what the balance sheet looks like and where the capital comes from. If they cared for such things then airlines like Emirates would not have a single paying passenger. What they care for is the product and the convenience and the cost not where the airline's financing comes from.

You can't possibly be serious. I think that all of us realize the ridiculousness of your entire reply, so I will refrain from identifying all that is wrong with it. Perhaps you're confused. As I have addressed in following responses, AI is playing a game that AA can't win.

Quoting manny (Reply 63):
AA was indeed the inferior carrier on this route. From a passengers viewpoint i care for the product offering not the balance sheet.

You're totally missing the point, as just about everyone on this thread has stated. The assertion is not that the passengers care about the balance sheet, but that AA is facing financial realities while AI is perfectly content throwing away good money after bad. If AA was "edged out" on the route, it was in part or whole because they won't continue to take losses on a segment that hemorrhages money.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 64):
AI is a plaything for the Indian government. They dont have to make a profit and they know it. They charge bottom feeder prices that no other (non-proped up) carrier can profitably match. Yet, 40% of AI's total international losses still come from NYC, YYZ, and ORD. If AI was about trying to make the carrier profitable, it would leave North America completely or raise fares and hope for the best.

  

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 64):
Thats not to say AI doesnt have better in flight service than AA, it does. However, its still the Indian govermnents chance to play airline.

  

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 56):
For the final time, nobody is denying that. All we're trying to reconcile here is that AI's victory shouldn't be viewed as a credit to them being the superior carrier, nor AA being the inferior carrier. It was a dirty war won by a dishonorable victor.

THIS.   

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: manny
Posted 2012-12-26 14:54:37 and read 4685 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 64):
Average paid fare.

AI is a plaything for the Indian government. They dont have to make a profit and they know it. They charge bottom feeder prices that no other (non-proped up) carrier can profitably match. Yet, 40% of AI's total international losses still come from NYC, YYZ, and ORD. If AI was about trying to make the carrier profitable, it would leave North America completely or raise fares and hope for the best.

Thats not to say AI doesnt have better in flight service than AA, it does. However, its still the Indian govermnents chance to play airline.

I have flown this route on AA in J. All classes were not packed to the gills. And i won't be surprised if any paying customer did not want to come back.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: manny
Posted 2012-12-26 14:56:52 and read 4681 times.

Quoting AA94 (Reply 65):
You can't possibly be serious. I think that all of us realize the ridiculousness of your entire reply, so I will refrain from identifying all that is wrong with it. Perhaps you're confused. As I have addressed in following responses, AI is playing a game that AA can't win.

The screenhandle for this poster starts with "AA". Coincidence ?


Or as i said before

Quoting AA94 (Reply 65):
Quoting manny (Reply 50):
All I see is a lot of apologists.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-12-26 15:04:00 and read 4687 times.

Quoting manny (Reply 66):
I have flown this route on AA in J. All classes were not packed to the gills. And i won't be surprised if any paying customer did not want to come back.

Ok, but you arent making any point.

The loads on ORD-DEL were very high, yet the route bled cash. Once AI came in, they had no chance. Its not because everyone loves AI, its because AI came in and started offering fares in all classes no airline could make a profit on.

Again, AI is a plaything of the Indian government who doesnt have to make money to exist. AA doesnt have that luxury. AI can charge whatever they want and it doesnt matter.

[Edited 2012-12-26 15:04:25]

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: 9w748capt
Posted 2012-12-26 15:05:03 and read 4676 times.

Quoting manny (Reply 63):

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 56):
Fine. Suit yourself and believe what you want to believe. No need to throw a tantrum.

Its not a tantrum its a true observation. If you want to see what a tantrum looks like check out the statement below:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 56):
It was a dirty war won by a dishonorable victor.

Now you see what a tantrum looks like.

Haha - you can't possibly be serious? I'm going to assume weak troll attempt. THAT was a tantrum? Bro I hope you got a dictionary for christmas!

Quoting manny (Reply 66):
I have flown this route on AA in J. All classes were not packed to the gills. And i won't be surprised if any paying customer did not want to come back.

Well that's your personal opinion - fact is AA is a very popular airline for premium customers not only in the US but also abroad. You may not have liked your experience - and you're certainly entitled to your opinion. However most knowledgeable posters here have repeatedly cited AA's strong LFs on both ends as NOT a factor in why ORD-DEL was axed. Count me in as one of those paying customers who gladly took ORD-DEL more than once. If AA's plan to codeshare with IT onward from DEL had come to fruition, it would've become an even stronger player. And service-wise AA will never be SQ, but I've never had a problem with AA's FAs, in fact on one of our trips my sister became very sick and they took excellent care of us, even letting me sit in one of their rest seats so she could spread out and lie down.

No need to worry about the facts, though.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: manny
Posted 2012-12-26 15:11:32 and read 4673 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 68):

To a whole bunch of AA apologists why does anything else matter. Why can't you accept the fact that AA has a crappy product and got eased out of a market by a airline with a superior product offering.

The defensive excuses are just that.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: manny
Posted 2012-12-26 15:15:22 and read 4659 times.

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 69):
fact is AA is a very popular airline for premium customers not only in the US but also abroad.

You are entitled to your opinion. But you must be living in a parallel universe to come to such conclusions. For quite a few past years i have not heard a single person i know who has appreciated AA's offerings. Period.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-12-26 15:23:55 and read 4650 times.

Quoting manny (Reply 70):
To a whole bunch of AA apologists why does anything else matter. Why can't you accept the fact that AA has a crappy product and got eased out of a market by a airline with a superior product offering.

Thanks for the laugh. Its been a bad day, I needed a pick me up and you provided that.  

If you would like to actually re-read what I wrote in the first reply of this thread:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 64):
Thats not to say AI doesnt have better in flight service than AA, it does. However, its still the Indian govermnents chance to play airline.

AA didnt get shoved out because AI has a superior product, they got shoved out because of this:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 64):
AI is a plaything for the Indian government. They dont have to make a profit and they know it. They charge bottom feeder prices that no other (non-proped up) carrier can profitably match. Yet, 40% of AI's total international losses still come from NYC, YYZ, and ORD. If AI was about trying to make the carrier profitable, it would leave North America completely or raise fares and hope for the best.

You can say thats me being an apologist if it makes you sleep better at night, but facts are facts. AI exists in North America because India foots the bill. 40% of their losses come from North America in the form of YYZ, NYC, and ORD.

AI doesnt have to make a profit to exist. Thats the whole point.

Ive given you a bunch of facts and the only thing that youve been able to come up with is that youve flown the route in J and it wasnt full.

Come back with something more solid than that.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: jonathanxxxx
Posted 2012-12-26 15:27:40 and read 4659 times.

Quoting manny (Reply 70):
To a whole bunch of AA apologists why does anything else matter. Why can't you accept the fact that AA has a crappy product and got eased out of a market by a airline with a superior product offering.

The defensive excuses are just that.

AA apologist or not. AA's product didn't matter this time as AI would beat AA no matter what. As has been said the reason AI edged them out is because they can price fares AA can't compete with. If AI would have played fair game and actually had tried to make a profit like AA things would be different. Try sticking to the facts not your opinions.
  

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: manny
Posted 2012-12-26 16:52:13 and read 4527 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 72):
Quoting jonathanxxxx (Reply 73):

Another round of off tangent, defensive excuse making on how why AA could not make it. But the facts are AI edged AA out of that route.

And its not the only airline to do so. Many airlines have marginalized AA in the recent past, That's why it is in the trouble it is in. That is the reality.

But i am sure the apologists will come back with another round of off tangent BS. Keep at it. But its not going to change reality.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-12-26 17:39:00 and read 4497 times.

Quoting manny (Reply 74):

If you want to change it to "the Indian government shoved AA off ORD-DEL", ill agree.

Until then, you are the one who needs to get their facts straight.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: jonathanxxxx
Posted 2012-12-26 17:48:35 and read 4477 times.

Quoting manny (Reply 74):
Another round of off tangent, defensive excuse making on how why AA could not make it. But the facts are AI edged AA out of that route.

And its not the only airline to do so. Many airlines have marginalized AA in the recent past, That's why it is in the trouble it is in. That is the reality.

But i am sure the apologists will come back with another round of off tangent BS. Keep at it. But its not going to change reality.

Personally, I'm not even that big of a fan of AA. I much prefer DL. The only thing I like about AA is their hub in MIA. That's it. Don't really know if I'm an apologist. Regardless, AI is in much more trouble than AA, fanboy or not. If it wasn't government owned AI would have been shut down long ago. Where is AA now? Still operating without government bailout. (Although Ch.11 could be seen as that equivalent..)

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: 9w748capt
Posted 2012-12-26 19:14:15 and read 4390 times.

Quoting manny (Reply 71):
You are entitled to your opinion. But you must be living in a parallel universe to come to such conclusions. For quite a few past years i have not heard a single person i know who has appreciated AA's offerings. Period.

HAHAHA this might have been your "shark jumping" moment for me. You've got quite the bit to learn about AA/AI if that's what you really believe. Go over to flyertalk and read the AA forums if you don't believe AA is attracting premium traffic. If you don't think that AA chases and attracts premium customers all around the world then that's fine, but then it would be rather curious to introduce 3-class narrowbody service on transcons in the near future. Apparently there are plenty of people willing to pay $5K to fly F on AA from JFK-LAX.

You obviously have your opinions and you're by all means entitled to them. Just back them up with informed, objective facts, clearly things you're uninterested in.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: HOONS90
Posted 2012-12-26 20:08:18 and read 4339 times.

Quoting manny,reply=71You are entitled to your opinion. But you must be living in a parallel universe to come to such conclusions. For quite a few past years i have not heard a single person i know who has appreciated AA's offerings. Period.:

Dear Manny,

I come from a place where the two major airlines are rated five stars and four stars respectively. Yet I have flown AA on multiple occasions and enjoyed it, and when AA starts DFW-ICN next may, I'll choose to fly on AA in a heartbeat as opposed to flying on KE, even after having flown the latter over 28 times.

AA has an incredibly generous and flexible frequent flyer program that can seldom ever be matched by others. Some of the most warm, kind-hearted crew I've ever encountered were on AA and the experience on the ground has always been great as well.

I've flown on three different five-star ranked airlines so I know what good service is like. Although AA may not yet have all the bells and whistles that SQ or CX does, the top notch FFP more than makes up for it, and the new products look very promising. AA does cater to a huge premium clientele...just count the number of premium seats they offer to places like GRU, LHR and NRT. I'm flying to Brazil in several months and was stunned at the amount of flights AA offers there vis-a-vis other airlines, so it looks like AA certainly does not have many problems competing with other airlines.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2012-12-26 21:37:38 and read 4282 times.

This whole thread has become comical to read. Is Manny the new username for MogandoCI, the same bloke that used to lurk the threads and hijack every topic into an AA bash session then send out threatening/defaming private messages to users? if not, they're at least cut from the same cloth, it seems.

for the record, I am not an AA apologist. I don't even hold status with AA and haven't flown them in almost a year, even though I live in Chicago and travel to DFW once per month. I do have elite status on UA, and I can assure you, Manny, that if you ever got stuck in one of their old J configured birds as I was as recently as October, you'd want to go running back into the arms of AA.

the ife/ptv screens in AA Y on the 777s were better than UAs in J. I flew outbound on NH on the same route from SEA to NRT and would argue that the superior ANA product (as well as DLs) ought to have out edged UA by now, but that hasn't happened.

your argument is baseless and everyone disagrees with you.

Also, the fact that only three US flights (EWR, JFK and ORD, since YYZ has been seemingly suspended for the better part of a year at this juncture) account for 40 pct of AIs losses across its entire international network is pretty darn sorry, IMO.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: manny
Posted 2012-12-26 21:55:02 and read 4260 times.

Quoting jonathanxxxx (Reply 76):
If you want to change it to "the Indian government shoved AA off ORD-DEL", ill agree.

Until then, you are the one who needs to get their facts straight.
Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 77):
You've got quite the bit to learn about AA/AI if that's what you really believe. Go over to flyertalk and read the AA forums if you don't believe AA is attracting premium traffic.

Facts are AI edged out AA. AI had the better product. AA had the lousy product.

And what i still haven't brought up is how do you apologists explain all the other services that AA has to stop over the past few years ?

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2012-12-26 22:12:39 and read 4236 times.

Quoting manny (Reply 80):

For as many markets as AA has had to withdraw from over the years. I can assure you Delta has pulled out of 1.5 times as many. UA has also probably a 1:1 pull out ratio as AA. This is what happens when a privately owned carrier has to restructure its network in federal bankruptcy court or else die off and cease to exist.

More to the point, maybe I should bring up to you, the AI apologist, how many times the Indian govt has bailed out Air India from collapse over the years? Probably as many times as you've posted aimless rants on this thread that clearly fail to demonstrate logical reasoning (if not more).

That being said, I'm done here. You can't argue with ignorance. Good night to all.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: manny
Posted 2012-12-27 02:14:07 and read 4146 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 81):
For as many markets as AA has had to withdraw from over the years. I can assure you Delta has pulled out of 1.5 times as many. UA has also probably a 1:1 pull out ratio as AA. This is what happens when a privately owned carrier has to restructure its network in federal bankruptcy court or else die off and cease to exist.

Any proof or link.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 81):
More to the point, maybe I should bring up to you, the AI apologist,

LOL. Imitation is.........

I am not apologizing for anything. I do not have to. AI is better. And most of you have agreed with that. I have not heard a word of descent.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: factsonly
Posted 2012-12-27 02:55:35 and read 4111 times.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 14):
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
other old stations are covered there as well, plus ones AA has not served at all - eg - Amsterdam

Indeed never served, but I have had confirmed reservations, and issued tickets, on AA to AMS, routed via ORD, but AA never started the route, we ended up flying via BRU taking the Thalys into Centaal Station, at least it was all F or J.


AA promoting a tourist destination 'not served' is not that strange. It is all about generating traffic. We need to distinguish between 'not served by own metal' and 'codeshare detination'. For one will most definitely find AA flightcodes at AMS departures & arrivals:

- dep. 07:45 AMS - arr. 08:05 LHR AA 6434 Non-Stop A320 daily
- dep. 09:30 AMS - arr. 09:35 LGW AA 6253 Non-Stop B737 daily
- dep. 10:50 AMS - arr. 11:10 LHR AA 6435 Non-Stop B767 daily
- dep. 11:55 AMS - arr. 12:20 LHR AA 6443 Non-Stop A320 daily
- dep. 14:55 AMS - arr. 15:15 LHR AA 6505 Non-Stop A320 daily
- dep. 16:40 AMS - arr. 16:55 LHR AA 6507 Non-Stop A320 daily

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: jonathanxxxx
Posted 2012-12-27 07:25:50 and read 3967 times.

Quoting manny (Reply 80):

Why don't YOU provide some facts about why AI is so much better than AA. Everything has been your opinion so far..

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-12-27 08:01:43 and read 3962 times.

Quoting manny (Reply 80):
And what i still haven't brought up is how do you apologists explain all the other services that AA has to stop over the past few years ?

AA has drawn down ORD-Europe (sans LHR) because UA handed their A$$ to them there.

AA has struggled with NYC-Europe because DL was more agressive then they anticipated.

AA has stuggled (pre-BK) with everything outside DFW and MIA because their costs have made it hard to compete and their domestic product in Y is stale compared to DL and (to a lesser degree) UA.

AA has been driven off by other carriers in lots of situations. ORD-DEL, however, is not one of them.

AA was driven from there because AI marched in and charged bottom feeder fares that no airline can compete with (outside NYC). As was mentioned (and you cant seem to get it through your skull), AI is a plaything of the Indian government and never needs to make a profit because the Indian goverment will foot the bill. The average paid fare on ORD-DEL (for both carriers) was less than ORD-MAN and its more than twice the distance. No carrier can compete with a government with deep pockets.

Now then, if your still blind enough to call me an apologist, do it. However, you are the one that needs to get their facts in order. Otherwise, your proving you know little about the industry.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: ripcordd
Posted 2012-12-27 08:13:05 and read 3933 times.

laxdude UA has not handed their a$$ to AA in europe AA is going towards code share fly everyone to LHR/MAD/HEL and let their partners do it from there that seems the way AA wants to go. Even domestic they want the pilot scope to open up more code shares with B6 & AS. To Manny AI didnt drive AA off the Indian Govt did both planes prob went out oversold most days and with one carrier having a endless check book it didnt matter if the made money or not AA was not in the shape to take on the Indian Govt.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: AAIL86
Posted 2012-12-27 08:18:35 and read 3920 times.

Quoting manny (Reply 80):
Facts are AI edged out AA. AI had the better product. AA had the lousy product.

And what i still haven't brought up is how do you apologists explain all the other services that AA has to stop over the past few years ?

I've got a great idea ... maybe AA should give the Indian government a loan to the tune of several hundred million per year. India can then turn around - deposit that directly to AI's bank account, and AA can earn interest on AI's DEL-ORD route. What do you guys think about that one??

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 85):
Now then, if your still blind enough to call me an apologist, do it. However, you are the one that needs to get their facts in order. Otherwise, your proving you know little about the industry.

Yep, your an apologist, plain and simple  

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: manny
Posted 2012-12-27 08:50:21 and read 3872 times.

Quoting AAIL86 (Reply 87):
I've got a great idea ... maybe AA should give the Indian government a loan to the tune of several hundred million per year. India can then turn around - deposit that directly to AI's bank account, and AA can earn interest on AI's DEL-ORD route. What do you guys think about that one??

:facepalm:

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: EddieDude
Posted 2012-12-27 11:04:37 and read 3773 times.

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 58):
I thought 77Es are also being "upgraded " to 10Y? Could be wrong though...

Opps, my bad. You are absolutely right and that is what I meant to type. Maybe AA would have a better chance this time around with lower costs courtesy of Chapter 11 restructuring plus a higher density plane (in Y) with no F class cabin.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: 9w748capt
Posted 2012-12-27 11:18:18 and read 3737 times.

Quoting manny (Reply 88):
:facepalm:

That's basically what all of us have done while reading your countless senseless rants that have no basis in reality.

Anyway we've all made our points and as always, you're free to believe whatever you like, no matter how inaccurate it is.

Thread has basically run its course IMHO.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: OzarkD9S
Posted 2012-12-27 13:14:02 and read 3642 times.

Quoting manny (Reply 82):


I have not heard a word of descent.

The word you're looking for is "dissent".

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: AA94
Posted 2012-12-27 13:52:44 and read 3613 times.

Quoting manny (Reply 88):
:facepalm:

My thoughts exactly. For my sanity, I think I will stop posting on this thread now.

You're living in a fantasy world, and we all know it. Some people can't be saved.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: mhkansan
Posted 2012-12-27 14:05:13 and read 3604 times.

I through-check bags and passengers on AI's ORD-DEL flight all the time. Not that AA has a codeshare agreement with them at all, but to say that AI's flight is without feed at one of the world's largest hubs is false.

Its fascinating really to see that the airlines operate a truly global through ticketing and transportation system despite there being so many differences in how each individual airline operates.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: 9w748capt
Posted 2012-12-27 14:55:31 and read 3550 times.

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 93):
I through-check bags and passengers on AI's ORD-DEL flight all the time. Not that AA has a codeshare agreement with them at all, but to say that AI's flight is without feed at one of the world's largest hubs is false.

I dont doubt it. I'm sure there are a large number of Indian graduate students at KSU who are only too happy to pay the bottom-feeder fares on AI to get back home - hell I would too if I was a college student! Which again adds to the argument that by all accounts AA's flight should've worked (on a level playing field).

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: LFutia
Posted 2012-12-27 19:35:46 and read 3433 times.

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 90):
That's basically what all of us have done while reading your countless senseless rants that have no basis in reality.

I agree!

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 93):

I through-check bags and passengers on AI's ORD-DEL flight all the time. Not that AA has a codeshare agreement with them at all, but to say that AI's flight is without feed at one of the world's largest hubs is false.

Been there, done that. pretty easy I say, just re-check in and present your bag tags.

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 94):
I dont doubt it. I'm sure there are a large number of Indian graduate students at KSU who are only too happy to pay the bottom-feeder fares on AI to get back home - hell I would too if I was a college student! Which again adds to the argument that by all accounts AA's flight should've worked (on a level playing field).

I always worked the Delhi flight for gate checking bags. tonnes of strollers and people with too many carryons. I'm sure they had fun when we sent down tonnes of bags for the ramp.

Leo/ORD

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: manny
Posted 2012-12-28 05:11:22 and read 3241 times.

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 90):
That's basically what all of us have done while reading your countless senseless rants that have no basis in reality.

Anyway we've all made our points and as always, you're free to believe whatever you like, no matter how inaccurate it is.
Quoting AA94 (Reply 92):
My thoughts exactly. For my sanity, I think I will stop posting on this thread now.

You're living in a fantasy world, and we all know it. Some people can't be saved.

This is the douchebag playbook 101.

1. Go off tangent and offer something besides the point as facts.
2. Find safety in numbers.
3. When despite the numbers you cannot still prevail then just ridicule.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: manny
Posted 2012-12-28 05:14:02 and read 3242 times.

Quoting LFutia (Reply 95):
I always worked the Delhi flight for gate checking bags. tonnes of strollers and people with too many carryons. I'm sure they had fun when we sent down tonnes of bags for the ramp.

Wow. Just Wow. And you contend you are an Indian.

You still have to explain why AI is a garbage airline.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: RWA380
Posted 2012-12-29 14:56:57 and read 2747 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 48):

AI was offering dirt cheap J and F fares on this route. People would purchase separate reservations between XXX and ORD and fly r/t on AI from ORD to DEL (or wherever beyond).
Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 55):
Yes. And no. I lived in Delhi for the first half of my life and flew abroad quite a bit. While AI was always the cheapest option to LHR, my family never flew them. It was all BA, all the time. Even ended up on a TG flight back when TG was flying 744s on BKK-DEL-LHR (TG 915/916 I think). AI was simply not an option. That stratification has been around for a while. Lets call AI's clientele the 'labour class'. Think ME flights stereotype.

Here is what I have experienced, As a travel agent, Oakley was one of my larger clients, the assistant to the president was a wonderful lady, who was from India, she made and approved all the travel arrangements. When she personally went back to India from LA, She ALWAYS said "no AI" even though at that time AI had a 1 stop LAX-FRA-DEL flight. She was booking for 4 other people in her family, so cost was a factor, but she never ever flew AI.

Once there was an urgent need for two high level guys to get to FRA one day, and because of the season flights were booked solid in J on the usual carrier UA/LH. So she agreed to let them book AI in J LAX-FRA-LAX. When they did finally reach FRA 8 hours late, they did it with no working entertainment, cold meals, and poor service in general. They called from FRA and they threw away that cheap FRA-LAX ticket and flew home via LHR on BA at twice the cost of their r/t ticket on AI. Except for some regional and local flying, I have never booked AI for anybody again.

I repeated this story so that all can see, that there are both Indians and Americans that dislike AI, and that everyone has been right to some extent in what they are saying here. The idea that AI chased anyone off any route is absurd to me.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-12-29 16:11:14 and read 2700 times.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 98):
She ALWAYS said "no AI" even though at that time AI had a 1 stop LAX-FRA-DEL flight.

I flew the LAX-FRA leg on AI circa 2006. I paid $350 round trip including taxes at the time. I know the 77W's they fly now are nice, but that 744 sure wasnt.


Quoting manny (Reply 97):
Wow. Just Wow. And you contend you are an Indian.

Are you defending AI simply because youre Indian? If so, thats stupid.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: Gr8Circle
Posted 2012-12-29 17:13:36 and read 2652 times.

Quoting LFutia (Reply 23):
I guess I had too many bad experiences with Air India, I just find a reason to trash them at any time.
Quoting LFutia (Reply 27):
Have you ever flown Air India? Everything about it from Mangement up just screams garbage. there are other posts in the forums about Air India that echo my thoughts as well.

You seem to be one of the (many) AI bashers on this forum.....while I do accept that AI has lost its once held glory and descended to bad levels, there are still some here who have good experiences on AI even today......so, you need to temper your observations and make it clear that these are bad experiences that you have personally had (which you've done in your last post #27)........bear in mind that even on the flights which you felt were bad, there could have been pax elsewhere on the same plane who had a good experience.....

Blanket trashing is no good.....

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: VIDP
Posted 2012-12-29 19:58:34 and read 2565 times.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 98):
Once there was an urgent need for two high level guys to get to FRA one day, and because of the season flights were booked solid in J on the usual carrier UA/LH. So she agreed to let them book AI in J LAX-FRA-LAX. When they did finally reach FRA 8 hours late, they did it with no working entertainment, cold meals, and poor service in general. They called from FRA and they threw away that cheap FRA-LAX ticket and flew home via LHR on BA at twice the cost of their r/t ticket on AI. Except for some regional and local flying, I have never booked AI for anybody again

You seem to be talking about a era where AI used to operate oldies 747-400. All these aircrafts are long gone now. All they have now is the new 777,s and the 787,s which have just started coming in. Today AI is far better than Indigo, Jet Airways atleast on the domestic sectors because with a little difference of couple of hundred rupees i get a hot meal, and a ptv to watch on a modern Airbus 321/320/319 versus Jet Airways where majority of their services are on Jet konnect/LCC segment where you need to pay for everything.

In the international leg they have their own cliental. After a project from frankfurt for 3 months while travelling back to delhi i was booked on AI and the 777 was fine. The homely indian food which i missed was something which i got on AI. Mind you all indian resturants in europe/states serve westernised indian catering to the local tastes. Majority of my friends,s parents prefer to take the direct Air India flight to NYC.

As for premium demand into Delhi its been growing massively. All major airlines now want to fly into Delhi simply because of lots of industries are setting up their shop in the northern region which was earlier limited to Western India ie Mumbai. Japanese have come up with their special economic zone near Gurgaon thats why we see now 2 Japanese carriers servicing New Delhi ie JAL and ANA.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: aeroblogger
Posted 2012-12-30 00:29:35 and read 2419 times.

Quoting AA94 (Reply 21):
On an aside, can anyone elaborate on how UA's EWR-DEL route does? I don't know anything about the market, and it would be useful to hear how the only US carrier does on their US-India flights.

Tons of O&D. New Jersey is full of Indians.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 64):
Yet, 40% of AI's total international losses still come from NYC, YYZ, and ORD.

Having seen the hard data myself, I'll tell you that YYZ takes up the lions share of those losses. NYC and ORD are actually somewhat close to operationally profitable.

Quoting jonathanxxxx (Reply 76):
Regardless, AI is in much more trouble than AA, fanboy or not. If it wasn't government owned AI would have been shut down long ago.

If it wasn't government owned, AI would be profitable today. The government subsidizes AI, but it is only compensating for the losses caused by itself.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 55):
Yes. And no. I lived in Delhi for the first half of my life and flew abroad quite a bit. While AI was always the cheapest option to LHR, my family never flew them. It was all BA, all the time. Even ended up on a TG flight back when TG was flying 744s on BKK-DEL-LHR (TG 915/916 I think). AI was simply not an option. That stratification has been around for a while. Lets call AI's clientele the 'labour class'. Think ME flights stereotype.

I'd say that this concept is a bit outdated.. Ever since the 777 fleet came in, perceptions have shifted significantly.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 98):
Here is what I have experienced, As a travel agent, Oakley was one of my larger clients, the assistant to the president was a wonderful lady, who was from India, she made and approved all the travel arrangements. When she personally went back to India from LA, She ALWAYS said "no AI" even though at that time AI had a 1 stop LAX-FRA-DEL flight. She was booking for 4 other people in her family, so cost was a factor, but she never ever flew AI.

There was once a day where I had the same policy - no AI, period. That policy has been gone for a few years. The AI today is nothing like the AI of yesteryears. The product and reliability of AI has improved significantly over the past 5 years or so.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2012-12-30 16:20:54 and read 2194 times.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 102):
Having seen the hard data myself, I'll tell you that YYZ takes up the lions share of those losses. NYC and ORD are actually somewhat close to operationally profitable.

I'm going to hold you to this one. AI suspended the YYZ nonstop back in May 2012 and unlike the other three nonstop North American stations, Toronto has not been resumed, although AI has tentative plans to re-launch YYZ in March 2013.

I'd like to see some hard facts at that point as to whether or not the ORD/EWR/JFK flights are better performers, as it will be 1 year post AA exit on ORD-DEL.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 102):
If it wasn't government owned, AI would be profitable today. The government subsidizes AI, but it is only compensating for the losses caused by itself.

That's an ambitious assertion. Do take note that IndiGo is the only profitable carrier in the entire Indian aviation sector. If your statement were true, then Jet Airways, SpiceJet, Go Air and Kingfisher would have rosier pictures to paint.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 102):
The product and reliability of AI has improved significantly over the past 5 years or so.

The product has improved, but the reliability has not. An airline that is still experiencing a high number of pilots calling in sick and recovering from strikes is the definition of unreliable. Flying on any of AI's nonstop services to the US this summer was an utter disaster.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: manny
Posted 2012-12-30 16:54:59 and read 2160 times.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 98):
Here is what I have experienced, As a travel agent, Oakley was one of my larger clients, the assistant to the president was a wonderful lady, who was from India, she made and approved all the travel arrangements. When she personally went back to India from LA, She ALWAYS said "no AI" even though at that time AI had a 1 stop LAX-FRA-DEL flight. She was booking for 4 other people in her family, so cost was a factor, but she never ever flew AI.

Once there was an urgent need for two high level guys to get to FRA one day, and because of the season flights were booked solid in J on the usual carrier UA/LH. So she agreed to let them book AI in J LAX-FRA-LAX. When they did finally reach FRA 8 hours late, they did it with no working entertainment, cold meals, and poor service in general. They called from FRA and they threw away that cheap FRA-LAX ticket and flew home via LHR on BA at twice the cost of their r/t ticket on AI. Except for some regional and local flying, I have never booked AI for anybody again.

I repeated this story so that all can see, that there are both Indians and Americans that dislike AI, and that everyone has been right to some extent in what they are saying here. The idea that AI chased anyone off any route is absurd to me.
AI stopped flying to LAX more than 4 years ago. And thats what i find baffling on these forums. The hatred for AI is carried to an art form!

Here is a recent report of AI's nonstop flight from US to India on Youtube:

http://youtu.be/S8FREsDcWdY

[Edited 2012-12-30 16:55:38]

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: manny
Posted 2012-12-30 16:56:35 and read 2153 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 99):
Are you defending AI simply because youre Indian? If so, thats stupid.

You should read the entire thread. The guy was contending at one point he was an Indian.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-12-30 17:01:50 and read 2148 times.

Quoting manny (Reply 105):

How do you know he isn't?

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: mhkansan
Posted 2012-12-30 17:07:33 and read 2138 times.

I have read through the thread and I've had my own run-ins with Air India staff and passengers, say what you want about them, I honestly don't think it matters that much.

Coach travel is a commodity these days as is so often stated. A carrier offers nonstop flights from ORD to DEL. I think that's pretty cool. If you've got beef with that particular airline, by all means transit FRA, CDG, LHR, MAD, FCO, or DXB on you're way to India and pay for whatever level of service that you want.

AI can make money or forfull it's prestige route to ORD or whatever, it's a nonstop flight on a legacy flag carrier on a very long sector.

You people on this forum are so vehement in your hatred sometimes.

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: manny
Posted 2012-12-30 17:14:04 and read 2127 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 106):

:facepalm:

I fail to understand your unprovoked, unwarranted dooshy behavior..

[Edited 2012-12-30 18:03:23]

[Edited 2012-12-30 18:04:14]

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: Gr8Circle
Posted 2012-12-30 18:02:09 and read 2068 times.

Wow! Have to admire a.nutters and the AI bashers therein.......you folks have managed to turn a thread on AA into another AI bashing thread......   

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: vin2basketball
Posted 2012-12-30 18:21:16 and read 2046 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 103):
That's an ambitious assertion. Do take note that IndiGo is the only profitable carrier in the entire Indian aviation sector. If your statement were true, then Jet Airways, SpiceJet, Go Air and Kingfisher would have rosier pictures to paint.

Jet and SpiceJet posted quarterly profits earlier this year, but IndiGo would not have posted a profit w/out sale-leaseback last year, neither would have Jet

Topic: RE: AA To DEL?
Username: aeroblogger
Posted 2012-12-30 19:12:37 and read 2002 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 103):
I'm going to hold you to this one. AI suspended the AI has tentative plans to re-launch YYZ has not been resumed - it was incredibly unprofitable. AI makes more money (or rather, loses less) with the aircraft sitting on the ground...

His data dates back to a March 13 MoCA report, so my response was regarding a similar timeframe.

Quoting vin2basketball (Reply 110):
Jet and SpiceJet posted quarterly profits earlier this year, but IndiGo would not have posted a profit w/out sale-leaseback last year, neither would have Jet

Say what you want, no Indian carrier is profitable, and nobody cares. All carriers are funded by the government, whether directly or indirectly.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 103):
The product has improved, but the reliability has not. An airline that is still experiencing a high number of pilots calling in sick and recovering from strikes is the definition of unreliable. Flying on any of AI's nonstop services to the US this summer was an utter disaster.

Reliability has improved as well. AI's OTPs stand at 81% international and 89% domestic. Of course, flying an airline during a strike period will be a nightmare regardless of carrier, but AI doesn't have any strikes on the horizon - most of the labor issues have been buried pretty deep.

[Edited 2012-12-30 19:17:47]


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