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Topic: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: FlyingFan18
Posted 2012-12-27 06:00:49 and read 15564 times.

According to our local news station a Southwest flight has veered off the taxiway at MacArthur Airport this morning. Seems like a random incident. Not quite sure what happened.

http://longisland.news12.com/news/po...rs-off-macarthur-taxiway-1.4379050
For those who are not NYers or have news 12:

Quote:
RONKONKOMA -
Suffolk police have confirmed a Southwest flight veered off the taxiway at MacArthur Airport this morning.

According to News 12 Long Island reporter Drew Scott, Southwest flight 4695 was taxiing when the nose wheel and landing gear left the taxiway and got stuck in the mud.

The plane was carrying 136 passengers, which have since exited the plane and returned to the airport via buses. No injuries have been reported.

MacArthur Airport appears to be open despite the incident.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: DLX737200
Posted 2012-12-27 06:08:54 and read 15514 times.

Southwest seems to have this problem often...

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: jfklganyc
Posted 2012-12-27 06:10:08 and read 15505 times.

They taxi too fast.

I dont know how they get away with as SOP

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: AWACSooner
Posted 2012-12-27 06:41:53 and read 15254 times.

This makes what? Maybe the second or third time this has happened to WN this year out of how many millions of flights?

Yah, they're soooooooooooo unsafe...better ground them before someone gets killed!

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: FlyingFan18
Posted 2012-12-27 06:48:09 and read 15171 times.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 2):

Although I am unaware that they taxi fast how can they do it in such a small (smaller) airport like ISP? They should know considering it poured last night like cats and dogs. Also what about those rather weird taxiways… doing a turn so fast I could see them easily sliding of the taxiway.
- Justin

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: plateman
Posted 2012-12-27 06:52:00 and read 15144 times.

Newsday has a clearer pic too .. story is behind paywall but image is visable to all:

http://www.newsday.com/long-island/s...rs-off-macarthur-taxiway-1.4379056

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: PC12Fan
Posted 2012-12-27 06:52:40 and read 15098 times.

Quoting FlyingFan18 (Reply 4):

With all due rspect, Southwest does have a reputation of putting the hammer down when they are on the ground.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-12-27 07:00:42 and read 14989 times.

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 6):
With all due rspect, Southwest does have a reputation of putting the hammer down when they are on the ground.

Sure, but is there any evidence that they leave the pavement any more than any other carrier? Overruns and runway excursions are easier to track than taxi incidents, and if we compare WN to, for instance, AA, WN would seem to compare favorably. In the past 15 years, WN has had BUR and MDW, while AA has had JAC, KIN and LIT.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: PC12Fan
Posted 2012-12-27 07:05:34 and read 14948 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 7):
Sure, but is there any evidence that they leave the pavement any more than any other carrier?

Not that I know of.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2012-12-27 07:10:08 and read 14908 times.

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 6):
With all due rspect, Southwest does have a reputation of putting the hammer down when they are on the ground.

Southwest does have this reputation, though I'd say you could turn it around the other way too. The legacy carriers have a tendency to taxi excessively slow...largely because it increases block times for pilots.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: IAHFLYR
Posted 2012-12-27 07:10:28 and read 14908 times.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 2):
They taxi too fast.


We don't know, the taxiway could very well have suddenly taken a turn. 
Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 6):
Southwest does have a reputation of putting the hammer down when they are on the ground


I wouldn't go so far as to say a hammer down, but from the years I have seen them moving around airports they move with a purpose unlike some other operators. Unsafe, not IMHO.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: 93Sierra
Posted 2012-12-27 07:54:25 and read 14646 times.

AA in particular is a snail as far as taxi speed goes, however I believe it has something to do with them not getting there numbers until they have pushed

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: jfklganyc
Posted 2012-12-27 08:00:09 and read 14585 times.

I have not evidence that they leave taxiways more than other carriers.

Take yourself for instance...if you drive fast or aggresively, the first thing your friends and family will discuss amongst themselves if you got into a bad accident

"You know he always drove too fast"
"I know, I always thought that too"
"Makes you wonder if its all worth it"
"He'll really need to slow down in the future"

Perception is reality in this business.

That's why we spend thousands of dollars and many minutes deicing when there are flurries falling

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: PROSA
Posted 2012-12-27 08:28:29 and read 14432 times.

The headline at Gothamist makes the incident sound much worse than it was:

http://gothamist.com/2012/12/27/plan..._skids_off_runway_at_macarthur.php

There was no "skidding" involved.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: Silver1SWA
Posted 2012-12-27 09:02:49 and read 14235 times.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 12):
Perception is reality in this business.

In my opinion, it's a perception that stems from observed tendencies many years ago. Times have changed but unfortunately perception has yet to change as well.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: SXDFC
Posted 2012-12-27 09:18:34 and read 14043 times.

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 3):
Yah, they're soooooooooooo unsafe...better ground them before someone gets killed!

You say this because they taxi too fast? Really? Although I do agree this is the second time this happened, far worse have happened to airlines, look at USAir back in the 1990's, they were loosing planes left and right. Maybe YOU need to re-think the term "unsafe"..

Aside from the US Airways Express DH8 and CR2, they are the only other carrier in town along with a bunch of GA planes, most of the time they are the only guys on the taxiway.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: Silver1SWA
Posted 2012-12-27 09:23:43 and read 13976 times.

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 15):
Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 3):
Yah, they're soooooooooooo unsafe...better ground them before someone gets killed!

You say this because they taxi too fast? Really? Although I do agree this is the second time this happened, far worse have happened to airlines, look at USAir back in the 1990's, they were loosing planes left and right. Maybe YOU need to re-think the term "unsafe"..

Aside from the US Airways Express DH8 and CR2, they are the only other carrier in town along with a bunch of GA planes, most of the time they are the only guys on the taxiway.

I'm pretty sure that was sarcasm.  

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: Captainmeeerkat
Posted 2012-12-27 09:35:06 and read 13754 times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOY3Cc6XRU4

Is this a fast taxi and quick rolling takeoff? I'm sure it's not an indicator of the norm but here they appear to me moving quite quickly!  

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: IAHFLYR
Posted 2012-12-27 09:46:46 and read 13530 times.

Quoting Captainmeeerkat (Reply 17):
Is this a fast taxi and quick rolling takeoff?


I certainly don't think so. And that quick rolling takeoff was anything but quick IMHO.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: soon7x7
Posted 2012-12-27 09:51:12 and read 13468 times.

WN doesn't position themselves here @ ISP any faster than anyone else here including corporate. I fly them all the time out of here and have never felt taxi speed beyond normal for the circumstances. With all their take-off and landing cycles WN pilots execute in a day I feel they are some of the best in the business.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2012-12-27 10:20:39 and read 13027 times.

LOL Don't talk about our airport that way!  

I am kinda surprised, but I have of this before so I'm not completely shocked. Last time I flew WN out of ISP we were at the runway in less than a minute, but if you've ever been to ISP, you know the proximity of the WN gates to runway 33L, so I wouldn't blame it on fast taxiing.

WN pilots are known to taxi a bit faster than others sometimes, but it has only caused an incident like 3 times so far this year. I don't think it's a huge deal. It just helps them a bit with their quick turnarounds and early arrivals.  

[Edited 2012-12-28 02:56:13 by SA7700]

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: soon7x7
Posted 2012-12-27 11:30:04 and read 12216 times.

Just went over to the site...appears as though the turn on Taxiway Sierra to the right was not accomplished. (Sierra makes a quick and sharp turn to the right then quickly intercepts taxiway Alpha to the left). The airframe is still in line w/ Sierra. The nose wheel buried up past the axle. (Much rain last night). In the dark with wet pavement this intersection is tricky and cannot be accomplished with any brisk rate of speed despite type aircraft. Feel bad for the crew. Went to work at the time, the weather was misty/ light rain, winds out of a generally north direction as it was vacillating between NW and NE. Given the wind taxiing on Sierra would have have given the aircraft a bit of an unwanted push in this case.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2012-12-27 13:30:59 and read 11020 times.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 2):
They taxi too fast.

A better statement might have been they taxi too fast for the conditions. On all of my WN flights across the last fifteen or so years WN seems to taxi no faster than other air carriers I've flown except for maybe AS in rural Alaska.

As far as we know if could have been pilot or first officer unfamiliarity with the airport in combination with the weather. The NTSB report will be forthcoming.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: soon7x7
Posted 2012-12-27 13:44:09 and read 10872 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 23):
unfamiliarity with the airport in combination with the weather.

While ISP may be looked at as a small insignificant field, It has a complex area of intersecting taxiways/ runways in close proximity to each other near the accident site. So a crew member in adverse conditions, would not necessarily be aware of how tight the turn is at this location. As I stated above...even in a 172 with any kind of push by a 1/4' ing tail wind requires you to brake firmly before entering the turn. Not a good way to kick off the New Year for the crew sadly.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: EASTERN747
Posted 2012-12-27 14:57:02 and read 10446 times.

So how does one get the plane out, You can't get behind and pull it out, Lot's of lumber in front and pull, if the tractor is on concrete or just get the guy from "Airplane" and put the petal to the metal!

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: soon7x7
Posted 2012-12-27 15:26:43 and read 10527 times.

Off load the fuel and everything else to make her lighter, imagine Boeing Team will advise on placement of harnesses cranes will use to lift so a firm base placed under the nose and left main and pull her out to the taxiway. I'm just guessing here but wonder if engine #1 sucked in crap...if so is the procedure an automatic engine teardown being this close to soil on the menu?...anyone. Think this airframe will be here at ISP for a while.

Free Peanuts!

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2012-12-27 15:34:52 and read 10374 times.

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 3):
Yah, they're soooooooooooo unsafe...better ground them before someone gets killed!

Um, no one suggested that on this thread that they are unsafe. Sure, they taxi fast and have the reputation for doing so. What is your point??

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2012-12-27 15:43:44 and read 10412 times.

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 27):

Looks a lot worse than I thought.

I'm gonna try an run over to ISP and see it when I get back to NY in a few days if it's still there.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: skycub
Posted 2012-12-27 16:11:08 and read 10158 times.

It's funny because as soon as I read THIS:


Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 26):
So how does one get the plane out

Before I even finished EASTERN747's entire reply, I was already had THIS in my mind:

Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 26):
just get the guy from "Airplane"

LOL

"Mr. Patroni... Mr. Joe Patroni... please pick up a white courtesy phone for an important message." LOL.

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 27):
Free Peanuts!

Okay... THAT was hilarious!

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: Jpax
Posted 2012-12-27 16:22:40 and read 10018 times.

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 27):
Think this airframe will be here at ISP for a while.

Unless there's damage or contributing circumstances we can't see, I imagine it'll be out within a day or two.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: e38
Posted 2012-12-27 16:40:29 and read 9859 times.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 9), "The legacy carriers have a tendency to taxi excessively slow...largely because it increases block times for pilots."

Doug, that statement is 100 percent false. Do you have any proof or is there anyway you can back up your statement?
Taxi speed at the legacy carriers is dictated by Standard Operating Procedures, environmental conditions, airport layout, and other factors, none of which include increased block times.

e38

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: winsox28
Posted 2012-12-27 16:44:35 and read 9836 times.

I took Southwest from BWI to BDL today. We did taxi rather quickly, but it was good to see a veteran Capt and FO instead of the young pilots I have seen on USAir regiional flights!

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: Silver1SWA
Posted 2012-12-27 17:06:27 and read 9643 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 28):

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 3):
Yah, they're soooooooooooo unsafe...better ground them before someone gets killed!

Um, no one suggested that on this thread that they are unsafe. Sure, they taxi fast and have the reputation for doing so. What is your point??


Uh, if you read the reply 3 posts above yours, you will see he explained his point.

Hint: IT WAS SARCASM.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2012-12-27 17:11:09 and read 9611 times.

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 25):
So how does one get the plane ou
Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 27):
Off load the fuel and everything else to make her lighter, imagine Boeing Team will advise on placement of harnesses cranes will use to lift so a firm base placed under the nose and left main and pull her out to the taxiway

As stated I would imagine it would be some sort of strap(s) on a crane or mechanical hoist mirroring the way they would lift a larger vessel out of the water and transport it to a cradle.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2012-12-27 18:06:28 and read 9144 times.

I believe it's N902WN and another A.nutter who works for WN at ISP posted a pic of her on the tarmac, so I think they moved the aircraft back.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: mcdu
Posted 2012-12-27 18:10:29 and read 9088 times.

Didn't we just have this same discussion about WN in DEN? Does anyone have a diagram of the location where this crew put in the mud? Heard pax report say they were cleared for takeoff. Maybe a case of too much thrust in a turn onto painted surface. The nose wheel will lose traction and the airplane goes in the direction of the thrust line. WN may want to consider a winter ground ops course for its pilots.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: LONGisland89
Posted 2012-12-27 18:13:09 and read 9083 times.

Aircraft involved was N718SW. Going to take a drive by ISP to see if she's still in the mud.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 39):

I'll try to upload an aerial view. There was no skidding or veering. The aircraft just simply kept going straight when the taxiway turned about 45 degrees to the right.

[Edited 2012-12-27 18:16:00]

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2012-12-27 18:14:14 and read 9048 times.

Quoting LONGisland89 (Reply 40):
N718SW

I stand corrected. I don't know if she's been pulled clear, then.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: silentbob
Posted 2012-12-27 18:18:17 and read 9020 times.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 18):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOY3Cc6XRU4

Is this a fast taxi and quick rolling takeoff? I'm sure it's not an indicator of the norm but here they appear to me moving quite quickly!  

Yes, it is a fast taxi. They are supposed to taxi no faster than a brisk walking pace. That is much faster than most humans can run. They only get in trouble for it when it contributes to an incident, as in this case.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 18):
I certainly don't think so.

You would be wrong

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 28):
Um, no one suggested that on this thread that they are unsafe. Sure, they taxi fast and have the reputation for doing so. What is your point??

Actually, taxiing at too high of a speed is unsafe. There are a number of degrees though, it's not as likely to cause death or damage to equipment as some other potential bad habits.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-12-27 18:20:54 and read 9000 times.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 2):
They taxi too fast.

I dont know how they get away with as SOP

My wild guess is that Southwest 737 pilots don't taxi any faster than other 737 pilots, but it's just our perception. Smaller planes are more maneuverable on the ground, some RJ pilots really scoot along too. Southwest's pilots are probably about typical, but don't have a fleet of widebodies awkwardly trundling around airports to balance out the comparative speed of 737 sized planes. Also, and this is less true these days, but the fact that for a long time Southwest flew to many underserved or secondary airports probably allowed them to both move faster on the ground (particularly near terminals where we best see them) and just have to taxi for less time, which contributes to the perception that WN pilots are speed demons.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: comairguycvg
Posted 2012-12-27 18:35:35 and read 8855 times.

It's the annual WN off in the grass. In this case, multiple times annually.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: AWACSooner
Posted 2012-12-27 18:36:40 and read 8875 times.

Quoting comairguycvg (Reply 46):
It's the annual WN off in the grass. In this case, multiple times annually.

Maybe their next theme plane can be a Holstein  

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: 71Zulu
Posted 2012-12-27 19:01:40 and read 8676 times.

From what is posted on avherald, the crew was instructed to taxi to runway 6 via taxiways Sierra and Alpha, where Sierra veers right just before Alpha, the aircraft skidded and went into the grass.

http://avherald.com/h?article=45b2f894&opt=0

http://i49.tinypic.com/2ld7ddy.png

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: dragon-wings
Posted 2012-12-27 19:16:35 and read 8515 times.

If you were going to go down to Islip (like me) to see the plane stuck in the mud don't. I just saw on News 12 Long Island that the plane is out of the mud. They even showed a video of the plane getting pulled out of the mud. The plane is probably parked at the Liberty Jet hangar now.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: 93Sierra
Posted 2012-12-27 20:41:19 and read 7946 times.

AA pilots I believe don't get there numbers until they push and are programming and setting things up for departure where as the WN flows are done pre push. Was there ice on the ground they could have hit?

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2012-12-27 20:52:32 and read 7841 times.

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 50):

There may have been. The weather wasn't too nice here last night and it was COOOOLD, so you never know. But, the more probable excuse for the incident is a tight turn and maybe taxiing a little fast.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: soon7x7
Posted 2012-12-27 21:50:12 and read 7550 times.

It was 47 degrees when I went to ISP to work, that was 6:15 AM. No ice existed anywhere and I didn't see skid marks...just someone that didn't slow up for the turn from Sierra to Alpha. The crew was quoted as advising LI ground" We just made your day a little more interesting", " we just taxied off of Sierra onto the grass". The winds aided in a bit of a quartering tailwind push. The Reg#, N718SW...

so close, yet so far...

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: barney captain
Posted 2012-12-27 22:28:20 and read 7360 times.

Quoting silentbob (Reply 44):
They are supposed to taxi no faster than a brisk walking pace. That is much faster than most humans can run.

Completely incorrect. While that my be true for GA aircraft, our SOP is quite clear; 30kts max on a straight taxiway - like the one in the video. A "brisk walking pace" is roughly 3-4kts - absurdly slow. At that speed, a not-at-all uncommon 2 mile taxi would take roughly 30 minutes.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: 71Zulu
Posted 2012-12-27 23:08:02 and read 7215 times.

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 53):
The crew was quoted as advising LI ground" We just made your day a little more interesting", " we just taxied off of Sierra onto the grass".

That is true, just heard the clip on liveatc.net.

For some reason, Avherald is still reporting the crew said "skidded" but they said no such thing.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: PassedV1
Posted 2012-12-28 00:05:37 and read 6994 times.

Southwest Crews on average, taxi much much faster than any other airline. This is not a criticism from lay people or from an ignorant media, this is criticism from peers that do the same work in the same type of airplanes in the same airport environments.

Southwest on average taxis much faster than anyone, much faster than the FAA standard of a "brisk-walk", and in my opinion bring the overall safety margin down...and yes, this culture has already killed people. Just because it happened to somebody else to (i.e. AA), doesn't make it okay.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2012-12-28 00:09:19 and read 6996 times.

That happened on my last WN flight, which was from ISP. As soon as we finished pushing back, the flight attendant up front said we had been cleared for takeoff. I think weacrually had, though, becausewe were in the air withing 2 minutes (and that includes the time we spent pushed back).

[Edited 2012-12-28 03:04:38 by SA7700]

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: barney captain
Posted 2012-12-28 01:18:50 and read 6777 times.

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 59):
much faster than the FAA standard of a "brisk-walk"

Allow me to quote myself from 3 posts above yours.

Quoting barney captain (Reply 56):
Completely incorrect. While that my be true for GA aircraft, our SOP is quite clear; 30kts max on a straight taxiway - like the one in the video. A "brisk walking pace" is roughly 3-4kts - absurdly slow. At that speed, a not-at-all uncommon 2 mile taxi would take roughly 30 minutes.

There is absolutely no such thing as an "FAA standard for 'a brisk walk'..." wrt taxi speeds. Not when speaking in terms of airliners. The absolute slowest I have ever witnessed on a straight taxi-way was roughly 10kts by an aircraft in front of us. Over twice the speed of the much touted "brisk walk". The ground controller asked him to pick up the pace for the stack of aircraft bunching up behind him.

Can we please put this to rest now?

Can we also agree - and there is no way of getting around this - there is absolutely no way to know if the minor incident had anything to do with excess speed. None.

[Edited 2012-12-28 01:25:19]

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: mcdu
Posted 2012-12-28 03:47:18 and read 6325 times.

Quoting barney captain (Reply 51):
there is absolutely no way to know if the minor incident had anything to do with excess speed. None.

You may want to rephrase that. There is absolutely a way to know and it is probably known today. The QAR and or the FDR will definitely reveal how fast the plane was moving. In addition the crew will have had drug and alcohol tests, and probably some scrutiny over previous days activity leading up the the excursion into the weeds.

It just adds to the industry wide black eye perception of WN and their ability to stay on the hard surface.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: soon7x7
Posted 2012-12-28 03:48:56 and read 6308 times.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 50):

What is wrong with that?...You probably pushed back and had a one minute taxi to R-31L which is adjacent to the ramp at the terminal...what could be better?

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2012-12-28 06:11:40 and read 5734 times.

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 53):

There was nothing wrong with it, it was great. And we did indeed use 31L, I was just responding to another post.

EDIT: The post I was replying to seems to have been deleted. Sorry for the confusipn.

[Edited 2012-12-28 06:12:54]

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: SEPilot
Posted 2012-12-28 07:45:03 and read 5551 times.

I fly WN almost exclusively when I fly domestically, and I have never considered their taxi speeds to be excessive. I am also an experienced private pilot, and would probably taxi at about the same speeds were I flying.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: soon7x7
Posted 2012-12-28 07:52:46 and read 5543 times.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 54):

No confusion here...I get your drift...seems like they no sooner start up the power plants at push back , seems like 30 seconds later your @ 4,000ft and climbing...its great!
Now this brings me to the question with jet engines...if the first flight of the day, typically 6:30 departure at ISP, middle of the winter...do typical jet engines need to attain a certain operating core temperature OR...you just need your correct pressures and temp readings, another words...no such thing as "warming up " as with internal combustion engines?
Always amazes me with WN @ ISP on the 31L departure...when your tracking eastbound over the shoreline after take off you look back at ISP some 8 miles away and 8,000 ft below, I think to myself...these power plants were sitting cold soaked overnight till 3.5 minutes ago!...Am I thinking this too much...?   

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2012-12-28 08:08:12 and read 5505 times.

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 56):

I never actually thout about that. I did notice though, when I go to PVD I watch the 630am US Airways 737-400 and the 600am WN departure and the US plane sits a lot longer than the WN does. I guess it depends on the airlines' SOP.

I've had shorter early morning winter pushbacks with WN than on midday pushbacks from MYR on US Airways, so I guess WN has a different SOP.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: Silver1SWA
Posted 2012-12-28 08:11:34 and read 5505 times.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 55):
I fly WN almost exclusively when I fly domestically, and I have never considered their taxi speeds to be excessive. I am also an experienced private pilot, and would probably taxi at about the same speeds

Really, the only people making a claim that WN taxi speeds are higher are the people known to dislike..err HATE WN.

Is it not possible that this was a visibility issue more than a speed issue? From what I gather the weather was nasty and this occurred at a tricky intersection.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2012-12-28 08:26:11 and read 5438 times.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 58):

This whole thing seems like a visibility or fimiliarity issue to me. I don't think taxi speeds had much to do with it, if anything.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-12-28 08:51:36 and read 5375 times.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 52):
In addition the crew will have had drug and alcohol tests, and probably some scrutiny over previous days activity leading up the the excursion into the weeds.

This event doesn't look like it'll qualify as an accident, so the level of scrutiny will be minimal.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2012-12-28 09:09:47 and read 5325 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 60):
This event doesn't look like it'll qualify as an accident, so the level of scrutiny will be minimal.

It made the FAA Preliminary Accident & Incident List - so there will be a report at least by the FAA - I agree this will not get to NTSB level.

Along with two B767 diversions (UA & AA) and three B737 diversions (AA, SW & UA) due to injuries of FA or passengers since the 23rd.

[Edited 2012-12-28 09:11:13]

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: SEPilot
Posted 2012-12-28 09:11:22 and read 5321 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 60):

This event doesn't look like it'll qualify as an accident, so the level of scrutiny will be minimal.

With no damage to the aircraft (which I see no sign of), and no injuries, you are probably correct

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: mandala499
Posted 2012-12-28 09:14:31 and read 5313 times.

Quoting Captainmeeerkat (Reply 17):
Is this a fast taxi and quick rolling takeoff? I'm sure it's not an indicator of the norm but here they appear to me moving quite quickly!

He didn't look like he was exceeding 30kts...

Quoting silentbob (Reply 38):
Yes, it is a fast taxi. They are supposed to taxi no faster than a brisk walking pace. That is much faster than most humans can run. They only get in trouble for it when it contributes to an incident, as in this case.

If they taxi at "brisk walking pace", heck, Amtrak would be overflowing with passengers on the eastern seaboard!   
Boeing states on its 737 manuals, 30kts (or 35) straight, 10 (or 15) in turns....

Quoting silentbob (Reply 38):
Actually, taxiing at too high of a speed is unsafe. There are a number of degrees though, it's not as likely to cause death or damage to equipment as some other potential bad habits.

Bad habits? Ask Boeing to change the taxi speed limitations on the 737 then   
And one CAN exceed that limitation speed even on idle thrust if the conditions are right. So what do you suggest, brake continuously so they can maintain 'brisk walking pace" ? Well, would love to see how the aircraft can then handle rejected take offs because the brakes are hot! Going slow, can end up killing more people (brakes gone due to heat on a rejected take off is a lot more dangerous)...

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2012-12-28 09:41:09 and read 5216 times.

Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 42):

If I read the chart correctly the junction point where Sierra and Alpha taxiways meet are almost parallel with ISP runway 10 Not being a chart expert I'm curious if the flight deck might have been distracted by approaching aircraft inbound landing on runway 10; if 10 was active.

Because the rain and wind shear with an approaching cold front I liken the weather to SEA where it rains quite a bit. On several occasions as a passenger I got a little anxious looking out my window at inbound flights coming in on the runway we were leaving on in a driving rain.

In the lessons learned department WN may want to add SEA and possibly ANC or JNU Juneau, Alaska airports to their flight simulator(s) Even though WN doesn't fly to Alaska the weather and low ceilings would make for valuable simulator training.

Here's a Juneau departure on one of the nicer days. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpZxh6xKsL8 Wind shear, rain and snow can make for a bumpy ride. A runway 8 approach must make a last minute left roll over a timber area termed the "cut" to line up with runway 8 which is a little more severe than the cut aircraft have to make around the Washington Monument landing the Potomac route into DCA.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2012-12-28 09:51:23 and read 5173 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 64):

I'm pretty sure runway 10 hasn't been active in years. I think it's just used as a taxiway, but don't quote me on that.
Also, unless it was a corporate jet that flightaware cannot track, nothing landed at ISP before 0745am on Thursday.

You have a good point about adding those airports to their simulators. They would proably provide valuable bad weather training like you said.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: soon7x7
Posted 2012-12-28 09:58:18 and read 5148 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 64):
If I read the chart correctly the junction point where Sierra and Alpha taxiways meet are almost parallel with ISP runway 10

From the air this junction makes obvious sense but when you are taxiing at ground level in the dark, rain on the windscreen reflecting ambient light, no clear definition of grass/taxiway lights 'cept the small blue taxi lights, it is hard to make out this intersection as their exist many taxiway lights...they appear to be one blob of lights. This area really requires an unfamiliar crew to slow up and figure it out before entering the zone. Many times I land on R-6 and can make the Sierra turn off back to Mid Island via Alpha which would be off to my rear, right quatering area, I have to really focus which taxiway am I rolling onto and I'm used to the place.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: 71Zulu
Posted 2012-12-28 09:59:53 and read 5185 times.

Google Earth shot


Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: mcdu
Posted 2012-12-28 10:29:12 and read 5095 times.

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 66):
rain on the windscreen reflecting ambient light, no clear definition of grass/taxiway lights 'cept the small blue taxi lights, it is hard to make out this intersection as their exist many taxiway lights...they appear to be one blob of ligh

That is why they paint a bright yellow center line to follow......... The captain is responsible to taxi at a safe speed for the conditions. If he was in doubt, stop the airplane and sort out the location. Also he had to be going pretty fast to get that far into the soft surface. NYC had a deluge from the storm the previous night according to reports. The ground had to be really spongy.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: yeelep
Posted 2012-12-28 11:37:28 and read 4966 times.

Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 24):
So how does one get the plane out, You can't get behind and pull it out,

Yes you can. There are eyebolts and cables that attach to the main gear that are used to winch or tow the aircraft backwards.

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 25):
Off load the fuel and everything else to make her lighter, imagine Boeing Team will advise on placement of harnesses cranes will use to lift so a firm base placed under the nose and left main and pull her out to the taxiway.

No need to consult with Boeing, they publish a 737 aircraft recovery document that covers most recovery scenarios. Depending on the depth of the ruts and the vertical load on the affected struts, they may be able to pull it out with out lifting the plane. For a crane lift, the slings are attached just behind the nose gear wheel well or behind the fwd entry door and to the main landing gear trunnions from above (must remove wing panels for access).

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 25):
I'm just guessing here but wonder if engine #1 sucked in crap...if so is the procedure an automatic engine teardown being this close to soil on the menu?...anyone.

As they were slowing the plane, the engine was probably at idle, so hopefully they didn't FOD it. They'll do a FOD inspection and go from there.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: UA735WL
Posted 2012-12-28 14:21:20 and read 4791 times.

In my experience, WN does tend to taxi faster than other carriers. It works for them most of the time, but it seems like it gets a little tricky to taxi like that under adverse weather conditions, ex. this and the earlier incident this fall at DEN.

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 21):
The nose wheel buried up past the axle. (Much rain last night). In the dark with wet pavement this intersection is tricky and cannot be accomplished with any brisk rate of speed despite type aircraft.

If I'm not mistaken as to where this ocurred ( the dog-leg in taxiway Sierra) I'd guess that this is the case here. The turn is not even 90 degrees.....They probably attempted to swing the turn while going 25-30 knots coming off the straightaway. I'm sure WN pilots have successfully done this in earlier instances......just not when the taxiway was wet.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: 71Zulu
Posted 2012-12-28 15:05:39 and read 4755 times.

Av Herald just updated the article and is saying that the aircraft has "substantial damage" and that the FAA is classifying this occurence as an accident.

http://avherald.com/h?article=45b2f894&opt=0

What could it be?

Bent nose gear, FOD engine damage, etc?

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2012-12-28 15:38:17 and read 4665 times.

Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 71):

My guess is FOD in the engine and perhaps some damage to the landing gear. Quite often hese types if incidents result in a decent amount of internal damage.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: dragon-wings
Posted 2012-12-28 16:13:09 and read 4620 times.

Here is video of the plane getting pulled out of the mud.

http://longisland.news12.com/news/so...way-at-macarthur-airport-1.4379050

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2012-12-28 16:51:17 and read 4518 times.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 65):
I'm pretty sure runway 10 hasn't been active in years. I think it's just used as a taxiway

I suspect the flight deck wished the wider runway 10 would have been the taxi-way on this day. If any good comes out this incident that may be a recommendation and future protocol when the weather deteriorates.

Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 42):

At the points where 10 and 6 intersect would there be enough runway for a 737 to depart out of 6. I suppose a 73X could taxi left down 6 and turn around for a same runway departure.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: 71Zulu
Posted 2012-12-28 16:58:01 and read 4506 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 74):
At the points where 10 and 6 intersect would there be enough runway for a 737 to depart out of 6. I suppose a 73X could taxi left down 6 and turn around for a same runway departure.

Yeah probably but they were going to take the next left (taxiway Alpha) to get to the full length of 6, but they never made it to Alpha.


http://i49.tinypic.com/2ld7ddy.png

[Edited 2012-12-28 17:00:06]

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: dragon-wings
Posted 2012-12-28 17:03:50 and read 4475 times.

I know it's a little long taxi time but maybe in bad weather they could make the planes taxi across the runway 6 and 10 intersection and make their way over to the new taxiway Golf to get to the end of runway 6.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2012-12-28 17:37:01 and read 4427 times.

Quoting dragon-wings (Reply 76):
I know it's a little long taxi time but maybe in bad weather they could make the planes taxi across the runway 6 and 10 intersection and make their way over to the new taxiway Golf to get to the end of runway 6.

Why not use the "E" taxi-way/apron near the terminal thereafter take a left and taxi down 10.

Given a choice I'd use the wider Interstate over a rural highway in bad weather. Weight would of course dictate if the flight turned right from 10 onto 6 for a departure or turned left for a short ride to the end of 6 near the safety zone area; do a 180 turn and depart long out of 6

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: freakyrat
Posted 2012-12-28 17:48:45 and read 4405 times.

From the aerial view of these taxiways I would say that ISP needs to widen out that intersection so this will not happen again. The taxiways are to narrow and the curve is to sharp for an aircraft to take under certain weather conditions.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: soon7x7
Posted 2012-12-29 05:49:20 and read 4141 times.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 68):
NYC had a deluge from the storm the previous night according to reports. The ground had to be really spongy.

It did rain a lot softening the ground. The Taxi Centerlines are extremely worn @ ISP. It is even evident in the aerial shot @ the point of taxiway SW departure.

Quoting yeelep (Reply 69):
No need to consult with Boeing, they publish a 737 aircraft recovery document that covers most recovery scenarios. Depending on the depth of the ruts and the vertical load on the affected struts, they may be able to pull it out with out lifting the plane. For a crane lift, the slings are attached just behind the nose gear wheel well or behind the fwd entry door and to the main landing gear trunnions from above (must remove wing panels for access).

As you say...apparently was easier than I thought, it is gone from the location.

Quoting UA735WL (Reply 70):
If I'm not mistaken as to where this occurred ( the dog-leg in taxiway Sierra) I'd guess that this is the case here. The turn is not even 90 degrees.....They probably attempted to swing the turn while going 25-30 knots coming off the straightaway. I'm sure WN pilots have successfully done this in earlier instances......just not when the taxiway was wet.

From what I saw a turn was not even attempted.

Quoting dragon-wings (Reply 76):
I know it's a little long taxi time but maybe in bad weather they could make the planes taxi across the runway 6 and 10 intersection and make their way over to the new taxiway Golf to get to the end of runway 6.

The turn from Whisky to Golf would be too tight for a 737, this Golf is a new taxiway. The normal taxi venue from the terminal to R-6 is Sierra>Alpha>6. I have never seen WN use R-10 to taxi. 10-28 is rarely used anyway. I have only used it three times in all my years of flying ISP.

Note in the aerial shot above...the white buildings in the bottom center belong to the Fuel Farm.   

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: soon7x7
Posted 2012-12-29 06:16:05 and read 4126 times.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 72):
My guess is FOD in the engine and perhaps some damage to the landing gear. Quite often hese types if incidents result in a decent amount of internal damage.

Once the aircraft departed the taxiway the crew tried to power her back to the runway. The engine "D" ring as I saw it was no higher than 12"-16" above the grass/loose dirt/rocks...Not good idea?!   

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2012-12-29 06:38:40 and read 4070 times.

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 80):

Oh no not a good idea at all!  Wow!

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: soon7x7
Posted 2012-12-29 08:15:55 and read 3989 times.

Found out N718SW flew out the next day, (MEL) flight...End of story I guess...

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: Silver1SWA
Posted 2012-12-29 08:43:44 and read 3905 times.

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 79):
From what I saw a turn was not even attempted.

This is what I was wondering. The headlines all said "skidded", folks here assumed they took a turn too fast... Like I questioned above, perhaps this was a visibility and unfamiliarity issue and I'm curious if they simply drove off the taxiway, unaware that they needed to make a turn at that point.

Speculation, of course.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2012-12-29 22:19:37 and read 3540 times.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 83):

I assume it was a case of unfamiliarity. But that begs the question, should there be more signage on the field to alert pilots (or anybody) of sharp turns?

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 82):

Is it back in service? I assume not, but if they thought it good enough to fly (presumeably the short hop to BWI).

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: 71Zulu
Posted 2012-12-30 05:39:42 and read 3417 times.

Av Herald still reporting they 'skidded', so they must know something.

This is what the pilot said to ATC:

"We just made your day very exciting, at least ours is gonna be,
we just taxied off the taxiway into the grass here, uh, right off
sierra right before alpha."

Maybe he just didn't want to say skidded? (sounds worse)


Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 84):
Is it back in service? I assume not, but if they thought it good enough to fly (presumeably the short hop to BWI).

I didn't see a deadhead flight on flightaware, you mean a revenue flight?
Seems it should either be cleared to fly passengers or not.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2012-12-30 07:52:03 and read 3325 times.

Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 85):
I didn't see a deadhead flight on flightaware, you mean a revenue flight?
Seems it should either be cleared to fly passengers or not.

Outside of any FAA requirements I am under the impression Boeing requires a mandatory 96 hour safety stand-down before any carrier can return a airframe to any sort of revenue flying after any incident. The stand-down allows a thorough inspection for secondary damage. Would repairs of such nature be made in BWI, DAL or possibly at Boeing in SEA. I believe this airframe was a 737-700 which could make it ten or so years old.

AS had a 739 enroute from SEA-ANC which declared a emergency on Christmas Eve 380nm SW of Juneau. The flight diverted to Juneau when one of the engines failed. The airframe was flown back to SEA non-rev the next day

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: mcdu
Posted 2012-12-30 09:09:51 and read 3260 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 60):
This event doesn't look like it'll qualify as an accident, so the level of scrutiny will be minimal.

From Avherald: On Dec 28th the FAA reported the aircraft sustained substantial damage and rated the occurrence an accident.


The FAA doesn't agree with your assessment of this accident. In fact the crew will be given a tremendous amount of scrutiny to find contributing factors. Everything from Cell phone calls, text, alcohol consumption, bar tabs, sleep patterns etc will be evaluated to see if it contributed to the pilots not making a turn, that by all accounts hasn't been an issue in the past. The human factors team will try to find out why this crew couldn't do what many many others do regularly: get to that runway without exiting the pavement.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 84):
I assume it was a case of unfamiliarity. But that begs the question, should there be more signage on the field to alert pilots (or anybody) of sharp turns?

Take a look at the distance the airplane traveled in the mud. As soft as the ground is they needed a good head of speed to get that far into the muck. If they were not sure of their location a crew would taxi cautiously and the first wheel into the muck would have stopped the airplane. Only a crew traveling at high speed would be that far into the grass.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: Silver1SWA
Posted 2012-12-30 09:16:41 and read 3219 times.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 87):
Take a look at the distance the airplane traveled in the mud. As soft as the ground is they needed a good head of speed to get that far into the muck. If they were not sure of their location a crew would taxi cautiously and the first wheel into the muck would have stopped the airplane. Only a crew traveling at high speed would be that far into the grass.

If no turn was even attempted due to unfamiliarity and/or visibility issues and they simply drove off the taxiway, it wouldn't take a whole lot of speed to get stuck like that.

Of course we still don't know what happened. I'm just saying IF...

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2012-12-30 09:25:09 and read 3195 times.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 88):
If no turn was even attempted due to unfamiliarity and/or visibility issues and they simply drove off the taxiway, it wouldn't take a whole lot of speed to get stuck like that.

Of course we still don't know what happened. I'm just saying IF...

Indeed...but you'll crush the monday morning quarterbacking going on. Thankfully we have trained investigators that will handle this. Not those with hidden agendas.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: atrude777
Posted 2012-12-30 09:40:42 and read 3181 times.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 87):

Hey Guess what, another airline had a slip off the taxi too just like WN did in DEN a few months ago, GoJet/United Express in ALB. Why aren't you all over that thread too for them taxing to fast, and making sure they weren't drinking among other stuff?

Funny when another airline has the same incident in another thread, you aren't there, yet when WN is involved you are posting constantly to make sure no stone is left unturned for WN.

We'd love your expertise in the other thread too, not just WN.

Mcdu--as much as you love to, this is not a WN only thing, this happens to every airline and aircraft at some point. Just look at the examples of the titles here..

Aircraft Slides Off Taxiway In IND posted Wed Dec 17 2008 04:48:56 by Allstarflyer
CRJ Slides Off Taxiway In DTW posted Sat Jan 20 2007 04:28:24 by Northwestair
UPS DC-8 Off Taxiway In OAK posted Fri Dec 22 2006 05:51:47 by Dispatcher
AirTran 717 Skids Off Taxiway In ROC posted Tue Dec 20 2005 23:23:14 by LHMARK
DL A/C Off Taxiway In BUF? posted Sat Dec 17 2005 05:26:57 by Werdywerd
767 Stuck In Mud/off Runway/taxiway In DTW? posted Sat Nov 11 2006 14:38:57 by Tu154m
UA Off Runway In FRU? posted Sat Dec 1 2012 16:04:19 by airtran737

Alex

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-12-30 10:28:20 and read 3106 times.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 87):
From Avherald: On Dec 28th the FAA reported the aircraft sustained substantial damage and rated the occurrence an accident.

Sorry I'm not psychic - look when that post was  

And regardless, your post is wrong. FAA most certainly does not go looking for "bar tabs" for every accident. It's more situation-dependent than you seem to assume.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: mcdu
Posted 2012-12-30 13:29:29 and read 3015 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 91):
Sorry I'm not psychic - look when that post was

You indicated it was no big deal before the FAA decided it was an accident. What were you basing that opinion on? If not psychic then you seemed to have been able to decide it wasn't an accident by some method.

In any case deemed an accident everything is on the table. This appears to be a first flight of the day accident therefore everything up to the point of leaving the hard surface. The list is long and at least with this being classified as an accident we will get a factual report. Looking forward to reading this in the future.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-12-30 13:43:31 and read 2986 times.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 92):
You indicated it was no big deal before the FAA decided it was an accident.

Nonsense. I simply indicated (your word) that it would not be investigated at the level that AA 587 or 9E 3701 was. That's true regardless of whether it's technically an incident or an accident.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2012-12-30 15:04:39 and read 2916 times.

Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 85):

Yes, I did mean a revenue flight. Shoulda made that clear in my post.      

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: mcdu
Posted 2012-12-30 16:03:05 and read 2862 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 93):
I simply indicated (your word) that it would not be investigated at the level that AA 587 or 9E 3701 was.

There obviously would be differences. However, the premise is the same. There are fatal and non-fatal accidents. To say the crews previous activities are ignored are wrong. There will be scrutiny in the human factors. The ATC tape raised a few red flags in what I heard. Also looking at the weather recap for that morning it was wet pavement with good visibility at ISP at the time of the accident.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2012-12-30 16:08:46 and read 2858 times.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 95):
To say the crews previous activities are ignored are wrong. There will be scrutiny in the human factors. The ATC tape raised a few red flags in what I heard. Also looking at the weather recap for that morning it was wet pavement with good visibility at ISP at the time of the accident.

Where did he say that all previous activities would be ignored? I didn't read it. Why come in here looking to pick a fight or fling mud for no real purpose?

We'll see what the investigation shows and if procedures need to be put in place or fixes to the air field made, then that will help everyone out.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-12-30 16:20:14 and read 2836 times.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 95):
There will be scrutiny in the human factors.

Of course. But you seem to presuppose that there was some human factors "problem," and that assumption ignores one of the basic tenets of human factors that talking heads often forget: people make mistakes, and sometimes they make those mistakes for no reason at ll.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 95):
The ATC tape raised a few red flags in what I heard.

What concerned you?

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: mcdu
Posted 2012-12-30 17:49:41 and read 2775 times.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 96):
Where did he say that all previous activities would be ignored? I didn't read it. Why come in here looking to pick a fight or fling mud for no real purpose?

He said it below. I am not flinging mud at anyone. I have not trashed WN. Only speaking about the process involved in investigating the accident. The quote below attempts to minimize the accident based on the photos as that was all that was available at the time of the post. He saw the photos and saw one thing. I saw the photos and saw another ( aircraft very far into soft surface) that indicated to me it would be much more scrutiny. Careless and reckless operation FAR is a broad brush the FAA likes to use, especially if blame can be applied to the crew in any manner. To argue their is little potential for scrutiny or certificate action against the crew is naive in my opinion.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 60):
This event doesn't look like it'll qualify as an accident, so the level of scrutiny will be minimal.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2012-12-30 18:16:50 and read 2740 times.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 98):
He said it below. I am not flinging mud at anyone. I have not trashed WN. Only speaking about the process involved in investigating the accident. The quote below attempts to minimize the accident based on the photos as that was all that was available at the time of the post. He saw the photos and saw one thing. I saw the photos and saw another ( aircraft very far into soft surface) that indicated to me it would be much more scrutiny. Careless and reckless operation FAR is a broad brush the FAA likes to use, especially if blame can be applied to the crew in any manner. To argue their is little potential for scrutiny or certificate action against the crew is naive in my opinion.

To distort the timeline of comment is a little naive as well. This chest thumping is really pointless and pretty immature. It is also distracting this discussion. At this point though we really don't have much more to discuss until the report comes out with more findings.

You were also asked about the ATC recordings and haven't addressed that yet. Perhaps that would be a better use of time instead of this nonsense.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-12-30 18:54:43 and read 2715 times.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 98):
The quote below attempts to minimize the accident based on the photos as that was all that was available at the time of the post.

Aside from your (irrational) hatred for WN, I don't see how you get from my comment to that premise. Had I meant that the scrutiny would be NONEXISTENT, I'd have used that word rather than MINIMAL. It seems that in your later posts, you agreed that this event - regardless of which side of the somewhat blurry incident/accident line it falls on - will get much less scrutiny than a hull loss or accident with fatalities. I don't see much left to argue about.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: mcdu
Posted 2012-12-31 07:22:28 and read 2526 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 100):
will get much less scrutiny than a hull loss or accident with fatalities. I don't see much left to argue about.

If I had intended "much less" then I would have written much less. I still believe this is going to be an interesting report to read.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-12-31 07:32:51 and read 2498 times.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 101):
If I had intended "much less" then I would have written much less.

It's pointless to argue the qualifiers because we don't know. It'll be less but It could still be quite a bit of scrutiny. If we look at overruns again and limit ourselves to non-hull loss incidents with few or no injuries, it's instructive to compare the reports from AA at JAC with PSA at CRW and S5 at CLE. As far as I know, there is no way to predict with any degree of certainty at this point in the process.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: atrude777
Posted 2012-12-31 07:55:53 and read 2455 times.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 98):
I have not trashed WN. Only speaking about the process involved in investigating the accident.

You haven't trashed WN specifically no, but you are taking a much higher interest here because it is WN. Why did you ignore my post above in reply 90 asking why you are not as concerned about the crew for GoJet/United Express that had their incident in ALB above?

It was the exact situation that happened to WN back a month ago in DEN and you certainly had stuff to say there too. Only when it is WN do you have a very huge concern for the crew, but for no other airline.

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: 71Zulu
Posted 2012-12-31 08:05:47 and read 2428 times.

Does the flight data recorder show taxi speeds, possible wheels skids and other factors on the ground?

And now that the FAA has classified this as an accident, will the NTSB investigate and will we get an NTSB report, or any kind of public report of what really happened?

Topic: RE: Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2012-12-31 11:58:13 and read 2326 times.

Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 104):
will the NTSB investigate and will we get an NTSB report, or any kind of public report of what really happened?

Although this is not DOT/FAA generated. Based on what I'm reading here http://www.avweb.com/news/avlaw/181884-1.html I would say yes. It sounds like the NTSB looks at any aviation mishap whether it is classified a "incident" or "accident" on the ground or int the air.

NTSB is well respected around the globe. NTSB was actually enroute from Washington D.C. to HNL in 2001-2002 to assist in the investigation when a nuclear submarine surfaced on a Japanese training vessel killing several of the boat crew off of Pearl Harbor. I believe it was joint USCG and NTSB jurisdiction because the submarine carried or was capable of carrying missiles which of course can go airborne.


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