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Topic: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: zhiao
Posted 2012-12-28 15:17:53 and read 12064 times.

Just as DL is buying cheap but still relatively new MD90s, wouldnt it also be smart to buy some secondhand 777s that are getting replaced in Asia. Specially I am talking about the 772 and 773. I could see AA getting some and using them for what their A300s used to do, and 773s could be used for trunk European and Latin American routes. The planes are not that old and are simply much cheaper than buying brand new ones! Does anybody see this happening? If DL does it with MD90s I can't see why no one else can do it with larger planes.

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: luv2fly
Posted 2012-12-28 15:21:53 and read 12063 times.

Nothing is stopping them. Though is the ROI worth it? I mean after doing C or D checks, painting interior mods and the length of time all that takes while your paying for the plane.

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: Mcoov
Posted 2012-12-28 15:35:42 and read 11955 times.

Quoting zhiao (Thread starter):
I could see AA getting some and using them for what their A300s used to do, and 773s could be used for trunk European and Latin American routes.

The last thing AA needs is antiquated aircraft, no matter how airworthy they are. They have enough 777-200ERs along with the incoming 77Ws and the narrowbodies that they really don't need any more 777s.

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2012-12-28 16:19:33 and read 11764 times.

Is it possible? Yes. Is it likely? No. Delivery, C+D checks, paint, mods, time. And I have to agree that AA doesn't really need old 772s, especially with 5 more on order and the merger and bankruptcy mess. I could, however, see a US Airline buying a few if the opportunity was good. If price and timing is right, then someone might snap it up.

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: mffoda
Posted 2012-12-28 16:31:29 and read 11697 times.

Personally, I would separate this "C+D" checks thinking (logic)... As they are very different animals.

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: EMBQA
Posted 2012-12-28 16:38:45 and read 11638 times.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 3):
Delivery, C+D checks, paint, mods,

The airline getting the plane rarely if ever pays these costs. It's on the airline turning them in to the lessor that is on the hook for the cost.

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2012-12-28 17:14:25 and read 11471 times.

Big picture:

For any airliner costs can be divided into two classes:
1) Fixed costs of ownership
2) Operational costs

Category (1) is costs like lease payments, certification maintenance, etc. Whether you fly the plane or not, they don't change.

Category (2) is fuel costs, maintenance costs that are dependent on cycles and/or air time.

If you buy an inexpensive airframe, category (1) will be low. But category (2) will be high. If that airframe is due for a heavy check, it will be even higher. Such airframes are best used in low-utilization settings. If you buy a new airframe, category (1) will be high but category (2) will be high, so this is good for airframes that anticipate high utilization.

A 777 typically flies legs of 6-12 hours. Hence, high utilization. You don't want to buy old aircraft for high utilization missions.

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: Rafabozzolla
Posted 2012-12-28 17:34:26 and read 11398 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
A 777 typically flies legs of 6-12 hours. Hence, high utilization. You don't want to buy old aircraft for high utilization missions.

Your logic does not seem to stand. Number of cycles is what really increase maintenance costs. 777s usually have high number of hours but low number of cycles.

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: SEPilot
Posted 2012-12-28 17:57:03 and read 11309 times.

Just how many 777's are not actively flying? I saw somewhere that the number of 777A's in active service is about 20 less than the number produced; I know a couple of them have been parted out, but what about the others? Are they parked, or what?

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: FI642
Posted 2012-12-28 18:01:49 and read 11285 times.

A certain US based charter carrier is looking for then right now.

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: MCOflyer
Posted 2012-12-28 19:43:23 and read 11029 times.

Quoting FI642 (Reply 9):
A certain US based charter carrier is looking for then right now.

It is either Omni, Vision or Ryan. I will guess the first being that Omni already has a 777 fleet of ex UA/AI examples.

KH

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2012-12-28 21:24:40 and read 10819 times.

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 7):
Your logic does not seem to stand. Number of cycles is what really increase maintenance costs. 777s usually have high number of hours but low number of cycles.

A new A333 is going to have a high cost of ownership. However, it burns very little fuel and has a lower operating and maintenance costs than a 1999 772 (unless that 772 is fresh out of a heavy check). The 772 has low ownership costs, but relatively high operating costs. If it's over ten years old, it probably does have a heavy check looking it in the face. It burns more fuel and it can only do a few missions that the A333 can't at this point.

Given both frames are going to have high utilization, the balance will probably work out in favor of the new A333. And that, folks, is why new planes get bought in the first place.

From time to time, the balance works out otherwise. That is why DL still has DC-9's, even though some of them are over 30 years old.

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2012-12-28 21:34:55 and read 10776 times.

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 7):

Cycles, flight hours and calendar days all matter. If you look at the maintenance review board report the intensive checks for zonal maintenance and corrosion are limited by both cycles and calendar days. Only the very short haul operators like ANA and JAL which have average flights of only one hour are limited by cycles. Most airlines are limited by days. With that said higher cycles usually results in more wear .

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2012-12-28 21:36:25 and read 10767 times.

DL will the MD-90s until the world ends. Plus a day. A US airline could get used 777s but they probably won't.

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: jfk777
Posted 2012-12-29 04:34:35 and read 10374 times.

A few years ago Delta was "looking" at some Emirates 777-300(no ER) but EK kept the planes. They had RR engines like DL's 772ER fleet.

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: Pellegrine
Posted 2012-12-29 05:03:25 and read 10085 times.

The relevant thing to know is....

Most US airlines that want 777 family aircraft...already have them.

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: by738
Posted 2012-12-29 05:16:34 and read 9948 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
A333 is going to have a high cost of ownership. However, it burns very little fuel

mmm. Relatively little I suppose comparing to older types. But still uses huge amounts of fuel.

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: SEPilot
Posted 2012-12-29 05:17:12 and read 9948 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):

If you buy an inexpensive airframe, category (1) will be low. But category (2) will be high.

Otherwise known as the law of supply and demand. New aircraft are sold at a price that reflects the cost to build it plus profit. Used aircraft are sold at a price that someone is willing to pay for them. That price usually is established by what the overall costs of ownership are expected to be, and it generally means that the costs to operate are not going to vary all that much regardless of the age of the plane. I would expect overall costs of older aircraft to be somewhat lower due to the desirability and increased reliability of new aircraft; these have value which will be reflected in the price of older aircraft. But when certain costs, such as fuel or capital costs, change suddenly it will have a very disruptive effect on the price of used aircraft, depending on whether new or used aircraft are the more sought after. The long and short of it is that there are rarely any genuine bargains in used aircraft; the price will quickly adjust to the real value based on the cost to operate.

One other factor entering in is how much a plane is used. Obviously an airline depending on an aircraft to fly 10-16 hours a day every day is going to value fuel economy and reliability more than one that flies only a few hours a day, or not even every day; in that case capital cost is a much bigger factor. The latter is obviously going to be drawn to cheap used frames, and the former is going to want new ones.

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: wjcandee
Posted 2012-12-29 07:40:09 and read 8568 times.

Doc -- here's a thought.

You correct about scheduled service. In charter service, however, you have low utilization even on long missions; i.e. the thing isn't flying every day.

That's a decent market for a used, low-capital-cost widebody.

Another niche is freight service where the aircraft is somewhat supplemental; i.e. runs on days where package volume is higher or, even though a widebody, runs relatively-short legs (1-2 hours) and sits the rest of the time.

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: 777STL
Posted 2012-12-29 08:03:06 and read 8326 times.

Acquisition of the aircraft would be easy enough, IF........IF....the airline had a use for it. AA, DL or anyone else isn't going to acquire aircraft without an intended use for them, and as far as AA is concerned, they're already receiving new build 77Ws which will eventually displace 772s(minus any new routes), so they can be used on other routes.

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: ytz
Posted 2012-12-29 08:33:59 and read 7972 times.

Why buy 772s now when they can get 7810s by 2017?

At the very minimum, the arrival of the 787-10 should help reduce 772/77E values a good bit.

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2012-12-29 08:39:10 and read 7921 times.

Um...772s are cheaper to get and you can have them now. That's the whole point of buying used.

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: FI642
Posted 2012-12-29 11:16:42 and read 6540 times.

Quoting by738 (Reply 16):

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
A333 is going to have a high cost of ownership. However, it burns very little fuel

mmm. Relatively little I suppose comparing to older types. But still uses huge amounts of fuel.

NW said the fuel burn was more than 40% less than their DC-10's I know what a 10 uses, so that's a
monster improvement in consumption.

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: FlyCaledonian
Posted 2012-12-29 11:33:19 and read 6395 times.

CO and NW are the two carriers that spring to mind who added a lot of secondhand widebody capacity in the 1990s with the DC-10, while at that time even DL added some TriStar 500s (and also a handful of ex-GF 763ERs). To add secondhand 777s today one of the US majors has to have a need for them, either to replace something else or to add capacity. But do any of them have such a need?

AA - In bankruptcy, and has 77Ws and 787s on order. The 77Ws are going to allow AA to add capacity, and redeploy the 772s to some 763 routes. No real gain in adding secondhand 777s, while it is going to have extra 77Es to deploy through the 77Ws taking on key routes.

UA - Has a large 777 fleet as it is through the CO/UA merger, and is not far off completing a refurbishment of the sUA fleet. Some 777s and 77Es were let go during bankruptcy, and if UA was going to add any extra 777 capacity surely trying to get these aircraft back would be the best bet? I seem to recall a rumour a few years ago that CO was potentially interested in the 4 China Eastern 777s (A models), which are GE powered, to replace the 764s on COMIKE flights (so they could be used with the other 12 764s). But since the UA merger there is no need for that as 9 sUA PW 777s will be configured for use on Hawaii and Micronesia flights.

DL - More interesting, as it only has 18 777s in the form of 8 RR 77Es and 10 GE 777Ls. Could be benefits in adding either type to bulk up small subfleets, but where would the aircraft come from? SQ seems the only carrier to be releasing RR powered 77Es, while it seems AI wanted too much for its 77Ls for anyone to want to take those birds on. The AI birds could have been of interest to DL to standardise its 777 fleet on one type, but then who would want its RR powered 77Es?

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: n471wn
Posted 2012-12-29 13:26:20 and read 5616 times.

Quoting FI642 (Reply 9):
A certain US based charter carrier is looking for then right now.

Well I guess that "certain charter airline" did not look very hard as a 1999 build 777ER is being scrapped as we speak in GYR....... a real shame.....

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: SEPilot
Posted 2012-12-29 13:29:01 and read 5946 times.

Quoting n471wn (Reply 24):
Well I guess that "certain charter airline" did not look very hard as a 1999 build 777ER is being scrapped as we speak in GYR....... a real shame.....

We don't know the reason it is being scrapped; it could well have some significant issue (such as corrosion) that renders it uneconomical to return to flying status.

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2012-12-29 13:34:10 and read 5856 times.

Quoting Mcoov (Reply 2):

The last thing AA needs is antiquated aircraft, no matter how airworthy they are. They have enough 777-200ERs along with the incoming 77Ws and the narrowbodies that they really don't need any more 777s.

In my view if they fit the current fleet, and are in good order, they can allow AA to grow in markets where their 763 is not a good fit.

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: n471wn
Posted 2012-12-29 13:34:35 and read 6025 times.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 25):
We don't know the reason it is being scrapped; it could well have some significant issue (such as corrosion) that renders it uneconomical to return to flying status.

I can tell you that the condition of the a/c was excellent but a D Check was required

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: trex8
Posted 2012-12-29 13:42:17 and read 5960 times.

How much is a D check cost? 5, 10 million, more??

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: jfk777
Posted 2012-12-29 16:10:18 and read 5164 times.

The mass movement of 777 from first to second owners will happen soon but most are still with their first owners. Singapore Airlines has been the only initial operator to move their fleet to other users. If Alitalia goes brok their are some 777-200ER which could have interest.

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-12-29 16:39:42 and read 5116 times.

Quoting trex8 (Reply 28):
How much is a D check cost?

I don't know what the going rate for labor is, but per an article from 2003, Air France's Boeing 777 engineering and maintenance manager said a D-check takes 6000 hours.

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: SEPilot
Posted 2012-12-29 18:56:06 and read 4828 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 30):
I don't know what the going rate for labor is, but per an article from 2003, Air France's Boeing 777 engineering and maintenance manager said a D-check takes 6000 hours.

I would expect that with overhead and considering that a lot of parts and materials would be required a starting figure would be $100/hr, making the figure about $600,000. It would not surprise me at all if it ended up costing around $1 million by the time all is done.

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: yeelep
Posted 2012-12-30 03:26:26 and read 4501 times.

6,000 man hours might get a "C" check done on a A320 or 737. 60,000 man hours is a more realistic 777 "D" check number.

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2012-12-30 06:15:23 and read 4299 times.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 18):

Doc -- here's a thought.

You correct about scheduled service. In charter service, however, you have low utilization even on long missions; i.e. the thing isn't flying every day.

That's a decent market for a used, low-capital-cost widebody.

You would think, right?

Except when Mr. Romney needed campaign planes to charter, he couldn't even find a 737, much less a widebody. There just isn't demand for them in the USA right now.

The only operator that I think might benefit from buying up old 772 frames would be WO. They have a low-utilization model that would benefit from such an aircraft.

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-12-30 08:29:05 and read 4083 times.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 31):
6,000 man hours might get a "C" check done on a A320 or 737. 60,000 man hours is a more realistic 777 "D" check number.

As the 777 complies with the MSG-3 standard (Maintenance Steering Group, 3rd edition), it needs significantly less labor hours for a "D" check then older models like the 737, 747, 757 and 767. The 747-400, for example, has some 200 items that need to be checked on a periodic basis, against 20 on the 777. And a "D" check for it encompasses some 35,000 hours.

This article on maintenance at Air France circa 2003 has some good information on the difference between an MSG-3 plane like the 777 and A340 and an MSG-2 plane like the 747-400:

http://www.aviationtoday.com/am/cate.../Airbus-A340-Smart-Design_286.html

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: United727
Posted 2012-12-30 13:52:15 and read 3806 times.

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 10):
It is either Omni, Vision or Ryan

Ryan Air International is in very bad shape. Last heard, their parent company, Berghoff Indust. in Rockford, Il, was doing just as poorly and lossing property to foreclosure. They have a MD-88 (former Austrian Airlines) (which they spent a couple million to renovate and let it sit and rot thereafter) on the scrap pad at KRFD. On top of it all, they recently returned an A330 to Virgin (which was anything ledd than properly utilized), so I highly doubt they're going after a 777 anytime soon!

[Edited 2012-12-30 13:53:44]

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: Polot
Posted 2012-12-30 14:15:11 and read 3748 times.

Quoting United727 (Reply 35):
On top of it all, they recently returned an A330 to Virgin (which was anything ledd than properly utilized), so I highly doubt they're going after a 777 anytime soon!

While they recently returned the A333 back to Virgin (I believe was always a short term lease anyways) they have an ex-Atlasjet A332 to replace it:


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Photo © Itay Tsin

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: wjcandee
Posted 2012-12-30 19:35:25 and read 3493 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 33):
Except when Mr. Romney needed campaign planes to charter, he couldn't even find a 737, much less a widebody.

Huh. I just thought he wanted to use USA Jet. I'm surprised that Sun Country or Miami Air wouldn't have been able to furnish him a 737. As to bigger a/c, there's always that 767 in Dallas that's usually available, although they may not have had the pilot staff available to do the kind of hours that were necessary. I do believe that North American probably didn't have the capacity given its more-perilous state. And...of course...there certainly were the airlines, although that may have been cost-prohibitive.

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: TZTriStar500
Posted 2012-12-30 20:26:41 and read 3406 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 33):
The only operator that I think might benefit from buying up old 772 frames would be WO. They have a low-utilization model that would benefit from such an aircraft.

I'd like to think ATA, if we were still around, would be looking at some or at least have some operating already along with some 763s and maybe the odd A340-500...oh to dream of what might have been  

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: strfyr51
Posted 2012-12-30 22:53:21 and read 3280 times.

Quoting mffoda (Reply 4):

all the remaining 'C'-checks are encompassed in the next 'D' check. So I'd get the next 'D' check and AD notes Zero Timed. and that will give you a good 2-3 years of flying.

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: luv2fly
Posted 2012-12-31 09:14:46 and read 2962 times.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 37):
Huh. I just thought he wanted to use USA Jet. I'm surprised that Sun Country or Miami Air wouldn't have been able to furnish him a 737



I bet it had more to do with price then availability! If he really wanted a certain plane he could have had it. I am sure USA Jet had a patriotic ring to it.

Topic: RE: Could A US Airline Buy Second Hand 777s For Cheap?
Username: NWAROOSTER
Posted 2012-12-31 15:51:42 and read 2751 times.

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 40):
Quoting wjcandee (Reply 37):
Huh. I just thought he wanted to use USA Jet. I'm surprised that Sun Country or Miami Air wouldn't have been able to furnish him a 737



I bet it had more to do with price then availability! If he really wanted a certain plane he could have had it. I am sure USA Jet had a patriotic ring to it.

Would the RNC like paying for expense of painting and repainting a Sun Country 737.
Painting an aircraft is NOT cheap and has environmental issues.   


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