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Topic: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: apruzesse13
Posted 2012-12-31 07:30:22 and read 17300 times.

Again another take-off in Russia of an aircraft covered of snow with no deicing treatment. This time the airline concerned is Rusline, a regional operator of CRJ 200 and EMB 120.

It is high time Russian CAA takes strong actions against such carriers, or the list of tragic accidents in this country will only grow!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DtscU0cQA8E#!

And in Russian only but with nice pics...
http://www.airlines-inform.ru/reviews/nicknick-507.html

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: scbriml
Posted 2012-12-31 08:14:00 and read 16987 times.

Personally, I don't think this looks as bad as you're suggesting. The plane in question only has the lightest dusting of snow on the wing and the area behind the engine has been cleared by the prop-wash. As long as the flight crew are happy there's no ice beneath the snow, I don't think there's any requirement to clear the snow.

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2012-12-31 08:26:33 and read 16868 times.

I remember getting out and sweeping snow off the wings of our EC-121 Connies at Atsugi, with hand brooms. There was always a bit of light snow on the wings when we lined up to take off. It quickly blew off the wings as we built speed.

The key we were told to watch for, and the flight engineer always inspected, was to see if there was any ice under the snow.

I've seen near the same thing flying out of Cheyenne, Wyoming with a Beech 99 in the early 90s. The pilot of the flight explained that he had checked the wings. There was no ice on the wings and the snow would be blown off before the aircraft became airborne.

Light snow with no ice is not a problem or risk for takeoff, provided the aircraft is checked to ensure there is no ice under the snow.

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: Dazed767
Posted 2012-12-31 08:32:10 and read 16798 times.

Looks like a light dusting and as stated above as long as the control surfaces are contaminate free should be ok. If it were still snowing and precipitation was building up on the wings then it would need de-icing.

[Edited 2012-12-31 08:35:32]

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: brilondon
Posted 2012-12-31 08:38:45 and read 16712 times.

It seems like a light dusting of snow which doesn't appear to be a problem. i have flown with a light dusting of snow on the wings before and it obviously doesn't pose a concern.

[Edited 2012-12-31 08:48:27]

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: apruzesse13
Posted 2012-12-31 08:52:59 and read 16600 times.

As pax is stating in his trip review (in Russian), no deicing treatment done despite aircraft coming out of overnight prolonged parking/storage

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: durangomac
Posted 2012-12-31 09:17:15 and read 16438 times.

I the US, any frozen contamination requires deicing, doesn't matter if it will be blown off during the takeoff.

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: cbphoto
Posted 2012-12-31 10:15:29 and read 16171 times.

Quoting durangomac (Reply 6):
I the US, any frozen contamination requires deicing, doesn't matter if it will be blown off during the takeoff.

Not exactly true. Light snow that will be blown off during the take off role, is actually allowed by some operators. It is at the PIC prerogative as to the assurance of whether it will blow off or not. Our company allows it, and I have been up front on a Major airline where it was briefed that the light snow on the wings will be blown off prior to departure. Their is also consideration given as to whether it is currently snowing at the time of departure or if it was a previous snow fall.

If you have a cold wing, with cold temperatures, and a light, fluffy snow, most likely the snow will not stick to the wing.

Airlines are also allowed to take off with certain frost attached to the fuselage of the aircraft, without needing to be de-iced!

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: tdscanuck
Posted 2012-12-31 10:26:09 and read 16063 times.

Quoting apruzesse13 (Thread starter):
It is high time Russian CAA takes strong actions against such carriers, or the list of tragic accidents in this country will only grow!!

The video is dated a week ago...how cold was it at this airport? If it was very very cold (not unlikely in Russia at this time of year) they may have been far safer doing it this way. If the snow is unattached (and verified as such by the flight crew), and there is no ice, then they're in better shape having the snow just blow off than contaminating the whole airframe with deice fluid when it's that cold out.

Before we assume the crew took an unacceptable risk, consider that they may have taken the safer path. Very cold weather operations are a unique beast.

Tom.

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: Aeroflot777
Posted 2012-12-31 10:28:41 and read 16046 times.

I'm not sure what the big deal here is.

As long as pilots confirm that ice is not present on the wings, the light snow is not a factor on takeoff. It gets blown off. I've flown in and out of SLC in the winter over 70 times and often times a light layer of snow was present on the wings. We didn't always get de-iced. Everything kept flying right off either during the take-off run or once airborn.

Aeroflot777

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: brilondon
Posted 2012-12-31 11:12:31 and read 15254 times.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 8):

The video is dated a week ago...how cold was it at this airport? If it was very very cold (not unlikely in Russia at this time of year) they may have been far safer doing it this way. If the snow is unattached (and verified as such by the flight crew), and there is no ice, then they're in better shape having the snow just blow off than contaminating the whole airframe with deice fluid when it's that cold out.

Before we assume the crew took an unacceptable risk, consider that they may have taken the safer path. Very cold weather operations are a unique beast.

I thought about this as well and came to the same conclusion. What are the guidelines for deicing anyways?

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: scbriml
Posted 2012-12-31 11:24:12 and read 15003 times.

Quoting apruzesse13 (Reply 5):
As pax is stating in his trip review (in Russian), no deicing treatment done despite aircraft coming out of overnight prolonged parking/storage

But is this known for a fact? The other Emb-120 parked next to it (and the Tu-154 it passes) does look like it's been there overnight, but it looks a lot worse than the one in question.

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: MH017
Posted 2012-12-31 14:05:20 and read 12940 times.

...snow to be just blown off the wings ?...

- even after take-off and flying above the mist-layer, snow can still be seen on the wings.
- de-icing boots were not used.
- during landing at Perm, it seems to me (according to the smoke coming from the chimneys), this was a tail-wind landing.

To me, this was an un-safe operation !

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: cbphoto
Posted 2012-12-31 16:42:39 and read 11261 times.

Quoting MH017 (Reply 12):
...snow to be just blown off the wings ?...

- even after take-off and flying above the mist-layer, snow can still be seen on the wings.
- de-icing boots were not used.
- during landing at Perm, it seems to me (according to the smoke coming from the chimneys), this was a tail-wind landing.

To me, this was an un-safe operation !

Well, I guess every operation is unsafe then. Better stick to driving on your next holiday. Lets get to the facts, shall we?? It's a known practice that snow can blow off the wings and be 100% safe. Airlines in the US, Europe and other safe countries do it everyday with no issues.

De ice boots? For what? De-ice boots are there to remove ice that accumulates on the leading edge of the wing, not for loose snow on the wings. You would never use them either on the ground during a snow operation, only in flight for ice accumulation. Also here is an interesting fact, on the aircraft that I fly, we don't blow the boots until almost an inch to an inch and a half of ice has accumulated on the leading edge of the wing to ensure a clean break, and that is manufacture recommended. Scary for a passenger sitting inside, sure, but 100% safe.

Again, airplanes of all types have max tailwind components that they can use. Just because you see some chimney smoke blowing in the light breeze, does not mean an unsafe operation.

Not to sound mean or anything, but their seems to be a lot of arm chair pilots on this topic that think they know everything about icing procedures. Stick to what you know best, and if you don't know it, ask questions to educate yourself. After reviewing the take numerous times, I can honestly say I see nothing wrong with the take off or the operation. This coming from someone who has over 4000 hours in a turboprop aircraft!!!

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: CX Flyboy
Posted 2012-12-31 16:46:47 and read 11207 times.

In our airline the wings must be completely free of snow, frost, ice etc...it has to be a clean wing. What is shown in this video is unacceptable for us but then I de-ice at plenty of places where none of the other major carriers are bothering to do so. Maybe one reason why CX is ranked so highly in safety studies by the authorities. The only thing we are allowed is slight hoar frost on the underside of the wing.

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: jetracer5
Posted 2012-12-31 17:23:32 and read 10811 times.

I fly for a major U.S. airline and we have a clean wing rule. No ice, frost or snow on top or bottom.

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: KGRB
Posted 2012-12-31 17:24:21 and read 10793 times.

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 13):
Airlines are also allowed to take off with certain frost attached to the fuselage of the aircraft, without needing to be de-iced!

Yes, ExpressJet -- the legacy ASA side -- is one such operator that allows light frost on top of the fuselage in certain conditions. I'm unsure if it's the same way on the ERJ side. Ironically, their corporate parent, SkyWest, tends to be a lot more picky in my experience. They don't allow overnight deicing, for example.

There have been times where we've had multiple Connection carriers leaving at the same time and the SkyWest flight wants deicing while the other one doesn't. It all depends on the captain, I guess.

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: AV8AJET
Posted 2012-12-31 17:48:39 and read 10546 times.

Now this Airbus on the other hand still amazes me!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=925MgqyU2NA

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: 71Zulu
Posted 2012-12-31 18:05:40 and read 10366 times.

Quoting AV8AJET (Reply 17):
Now this Airbus on the other hand still amazes me!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=925Mg...yU2NA

Yeah that was classic, long thread in Tech-Ops discussing it,

Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video (by bueb0g Apr 9 2012 in Tech Ops)

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: tdscanuck
Posted 2012-12-31 18:29:28 and read 10130 times.

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 13):
De-ice boots are there to remove ice that accumulates on the leading edge of the wing, not for loose snow on the wings.

If you ran the de-ice boots with loose snow, don't you run the risk of actually melting some of the snow from residual pneumatic heat and actually *creating* ice on the leading edge?

Tom.

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: longhauler
Posted 2012-12-31 18:50:25 and read 9918 times.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 14):
In our airline the wings must be completely free of snow, frost, ice etc...it has to be a clean wing.

This is not always the best course of action, namely, when it gets very cold. (Like the two Russian videos above).

What would CX do if it were -28C, and lightly snowing? Now, we all know that when it gets that cold, snow will not stick to the wing. We also know it would blow off during take-off. That is why under Canadian Air Regs, take off under those conditions is allowed.

However, you DO have to confirm that it will blow off, usually by a broom (or I have seen a leaf blower) on a representative area, and also by doing that you are confirming there is no ice underneath. But ... it is still snowing, so more snow will accumulate on the wing, which will blow off on take-off.

So what would CX do?

This is where it gets tricky. Type IV fluid is only good down to -27C, and below -14C hold over time is only 15 minutes! Below -27C, only Type 1 Fluid can be used, and get this ... below -11C hold over time is only 4 minutes!!!

But ... there is NO hold over time, if snow is accumulating on the wing when it is very cold, and you have confirmed it will blow off. (see leaf blower above!) In fact, if you did try to de-ice/anti-ice, then you could cause more problems, as now snow IS adhering to your wing, where it wasn't before.

So I am just curious, what does CX do when they visit cold climates, like Canada, and find these very cold conditions?

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 8):
Very cold weather operations are a unique beast.

Hear hear!

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: CX Flyboy
Posted 2012-12-31 19:21:01 and read 9663 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 20):
Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 14):
In our airline the wings must be completely free of snow, frost, ice etc...it has to be a clean wing.

This is not always the best course of action, namely, when it gets very cold. (Like the two Russian videos above).

What would CX do if it were -28C, and lightly snowing? Now, we all know that when it gets that cold, snow will not stick to the wing. We also know it would blow off during take-off. That is why under Canadian Air Regs, take off under those conditions is allowed.

However, you DO have to confirm that it will blow off, usually by a broom (or I have seen a leaf blower) on a representative area, and also by doing that you are confirming there is no ice underneath. But ... it is still snowing, so more snow will accumulate on the wing, which will blow off on take-off.

So what would CX do?

This is where it gets tricky. Type IV fluid is only good down to -27C, and below -14C hold over time is only 15 minutes! Below -27C, only Type 1 Fluid can be used, and get this ... below -11C hold over time is only 4 minutes!!!

But ... there is NO hold over time, if snow is accumulating on the wing when it is very cold, and you have confirmed it will blow off. (see leaf blower above!) In fact, if you did try to de-ice/anti-ice, then you could cause more problems, as now snow IS adhering to your wing, where it wasn't before.

So I am just curious, what does CX do when they visit cold climates, like Canada, and find these very cold conditions?

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 8):
Very cold weather operations are a unique beast.

Hear hear!


Quite simply, if there is snow accumulating and hold over times have been passed then the aircraft must return for de-icing and more anti-icing. In conditions that you describe it is very likely that the flight would get cancelled. Other aircraft departing would not change this. These are our rules funnily enough based on Canadian regulations.

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: longhauler
Posted 2012-12-31 19:30:22 and read 9581 times.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 21):
Quite simply, if there is snow accumulating and hold over times have been passed then the aircraft must return for de-icing and more anti-icing. In conditions that you describe it is very likely that the flight would get cancelled. Other aircraft departing would not change this. These are our rules funnily enough based on Canadian regulations.

It is not that hold over times are passed, it is that under these conditions it is physically impossible to get from a de-icing bay to the runway within these times.

Canadian Air Regs are the result of decades of flying in adverse weather conditions, and even after regulations were tightened as a result of the Dryden crash ... it is still considered far far safer to NOT de-ice under very cold conditions.

However, if CX's position is to stay at the gate when it gets cold, so be it. I have seen cold snaps in YYZ, colder than -27C last more than two weeks. I have visions of dozens of CX airplanes laying around YYZ safely arriving, but not being able to leave!

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: apruzesse13
Posted 2012-12-31 19:45:20 and read 9456 times.

Here

Quoting longhauler (Reply 20):

What would CX do if it were -28C, and lightly snowing? Now, we all know that when it gets that cold, snow will not stick to the wing. We also know it would blow off during take-off. That is why under Canadian Air Regs, take off under those conditions is allowed.

Herebelow an extract from Canadian Air Regs: see 2.12.2.c Clean Aircraft Concept

2.12 Flight Operations in Winter

2.12.1 General

The continuing number of accidents involving all types and classes of aircraft indicates that misconceptions exist regarding the effect on performance of frost, snow or ice accumulation on aircraft.

Most commercial transport aircraft, as well as some other aircraft types, have demonstrated some capability to fly in icing conditions and have been so certified. This capacity is provided by installing de-icing or anti-icing equipment on or in critical areas of equipment, such as the leading edges of the wings and empennage, engine cowls, compressor inlets, propellers, stall warning devices, windshields and pitots. However, this equipment does not provide any means of de-icing or anti-icing the wings or empennage of an aircraft that is on the ground.

2.12.2 Aircraft Contamination on the Ground—Frost, Ice or Snow

(a) General Information: Where frost, ice or snow may reasonably be expected to adhere to the aircraft, the Canadian aviation regulations require that an inspection or inspections be made before takeoff or attempted takeoff. The type and minimum number of inspections is indicated by the regulations, and depends on whether or not the operator has an approved Operator’s Ground Icing Operations Program using the Ground Icing Operations Standard as specified in CAR 622.11 – Operating and Flight Rules Standards.

The reasons for the regulations are straightforward. The degradation in aircraft performance and changes in flight characteristics when frozen contaminants are present are wide ranging and unpredictable. Contamination makes no distinction between large aircraft, small aircraft or helicopters, the performance penalites and dangers are just as real.

The significance of these effects are such that takeoff should not be attempted unless the pilot-in-command has determined, as required by the CARs, that frost ice or snow contamination is not adhering to any aircraft critical surfaces.

(b) Critical Surfaces: Critical surfaces of an aircraft means the wings, control surfaces, rotors, propellers, horizontal stabilizers, vertical stabilizers or any other stabilizing surface of an aircraft and, in the case of an aircraft that has rear-mounted engines, includes the upper surface of its fuselage.

Flight safety during ground operations in conditions conducive to frost, ice or snow contamination requires a knowledge of:

(i) adverse effects of frost, ice or snow on aircraft performance and flight characteristics, which are generally reflected in the form of decreased thrust, decreased lift, increased drag, increased stall speed, trim changes, altered stall characteristics and handling qualities;

(ii) various procedures available for aircraft ground de-icing and anti-icing, and the capabilities and limitations of these procedures in various weather conditions, including the use and effectiveness of freezing point depressant (FPD) fluids;

(iii) holdover time, which is the estimated time that an application of an approved de-icing/anti-icing fluid is effective in preventing frost, ice, or snow from adhering to treated surfaces. Holdover time is calculated as beginning at the start of the final application of an approved de-icing/ anti-icing fluid and as expiring when the fluid is no longer effective. The fluid is no longer effective when its ability to absorb more precipitation has been exceeded. This produces a visible surface build-up of contamination. Recognition that final assurance of a safe takeoff rests in the pretakeoff inspection.

(c) The Clean Aircraft Concept: CARs prohibit takeoff when frost, ice or snow is adhering to any critical surface of the aircraft. This is referred to as “The Clean Aircraft Concept”.

It is imperative that takeoff not be attempted in any aircraft unless the pilot-in-command has determined that all critical components of the aircraft are free of frost, ice or snow contamination. This requirement may be met if the pilot-in-command obtains verification from properly trained and qualified personnel that the aircraft is ready for flight.

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: CX Flyboy
Posted 2012-12-31 19:46:08 and read 9435 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 22):
However, if CX's position is to stay at the gate when it gets cold, so be it. I have seen cold snaps in YYZ, colder than -27C last more than two weeks. I have visions of dozens of CX airplanes laying around YYZ safely arriving, but not being able to leave!

Not quite if it just gets cold. CX's policy is to not takeoff if there is contamination on the wings. If holdover times have passed and there is nothing on the wing then we can depart. It is not for us to decide what types of contamination are ok and what isn't. If holdover times have not passed but there is contamination that the anti-ice is not taking care of then we do not depart. If conditions like that were to last two whole weeks (unlikely) then yes flights would be delayed two weeks.

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: apruzesse13
Posted 2012-12-31 20:00:25 and read 9507 times.

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 13):
Well, I guess every operation is unsafe then. Better stick to driving on your next holiday. Lets get to the facts, shall we?? It's a known practice that snow can blow off the wings and be 100% safe. Airlines in the US, Europe and other safe countries do it everyday with no issues.

Yes? Do you have some names?

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 13):
Not to sound mean or anything, but their seems to be a lot of arm chair pilots on this topic that think they know everything about icing procedures. Stick to what you know best, and if you don't know it, ask questions to educate yourself. After reviewing the take numerous times, I can honestly say I see nothing wrong with the take off or the operation. This coming from someone who has over 4000 hours in a turboprop aircraft!!!

Maybe a reason why TP operations in US are rapidly disappearing due to their perceived lower safety standards by the travelling public

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: longhauler
Posted 2012-12-31 20:04:48 and read 9477 times.

Quoting apruzesse13 (Reply 23):

Thank you.

Trust me, this time of year I am well acquainted with the "Clean Aircraft Concept" of the Air Regs. And ... now that days are getting longer, I am anxiously awaiting Spring. However, look at exception number 2, to the that policy ...

2. Dry snow lying overtop of a cold dry, otherwise clean wing is not
considered to be adhering if the Captain determines that the snow
will blow off during the takeoff roll.


And ... the best way to do that, is to sweep it off at the gate to determine there is no ice underneath, or in some of our cold stations where it is quite common to be cold, they use leaf blowers.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 24):
Not quite if it just gets cold. CX's policy is to not takeoff if there is contamination on the wings.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with that policy.

However, twice you mentioned CX's safety record. And in the 2012 list CX was listed as the 10th safest airline on the earth, that is something to be proud of!

But ... surprise ... look at the 2nd safest airline on the earth ... AC. An airline which does not de-ice under very cold conditions. Is AC just lucky? No, AC is experienced, with around 1000 departures a day under cold conditions!

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: apruzesse13
Posted 2012-12-31 20:10:24 and read 9471 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 26):
Thank you.

Trust me, this time of year I am well acquainted with the "Clean Aircraft Concept" of the Air Regs. And ... now that days are getting longer, I am anxiously awaiting Spring. However, look at exception number 2, to the that policy ...

2. Dry snow lying overtop of a cold dry, otherwise clean wing is not
considered to be adhering if the Captain determines that the snow
will blow off during the takeoff roll.

Longhauler, I did not find this exception on the document below:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviatio...p14371-air-2-0-5382.htm#air-2-12-2

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: longhauler
Posted 2012-12-31 20:16:56 and read 9431 times.

Quoting apruzesse13 (Reply 27):
Longhauler, I did not find this exception on the document below:

No you wont, it is not a part of the on-line Internet version of the Canadian Air Regs. That is why I mentioned it, I assumed you did not have access to the entire volume.

One has to subscribe to the entire version, either on-line, or in print to see the CARs in their entirety. Or in the case of an airline operator, that airline's Flight Operations Manual, which is approved by Transport Canada can be used. An airline's FOM is always more restrictive or equal to CARs.

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: apruzesse13
Posted 2012-12-31 20:27:07 and read 9355 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 28):
No you wont, it is not a part of the on-line Internet version of the Canadian Air Regs. That is why I mentioned it, I assumed you did not have access to the entire volume.

One has to subscribe to the entire version, either on-line, or in print to see the CARs in their entirety. Or in the case of an airline operator, that airline's Flight Operations Manual, which is approved by Transport Canada can be used. An airline's FOM is always more restrictive or equal to CARs.

Thx; Quite strange however as it kind of kills the whole clean aircraft concept.

So if I understand well, by Canadian rules, takeoff is strictly forbidden if snow is adhering to any critical surface........ unless the captain thinks it wont adhere long!!

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: longhauler
Posted 2012-12-31 20:38:39 and read 9243 times.

Quoting apruzesse13 (Reply 29):
So if I understand well, by Canadian rules, takeoff is strictly forbidden if snow is adhering to any critical surface........ unless the captain thinks it wont adhere long!!

Not quite.

What it is saying is that a clean aircraft is always the best option, and you will find that is what most air operators in Canada do. However, the key word in your quote is "adhering". When it gets very cold, snow does not "adhere" to the wing. The problem though comes with removing that snow. Below -27C, de-icing/anti-icing fluids are all but useless.

Exception 2 mentioned above states that if the Captain is able to determine, with no uncertainty that the snow on the wing is not "adhering" he may depart. Perhaps you have never encountered it, but below -27C, snow is very different that it is when around say -5C. It may look "dangerous" but in fact is not.

I wont go through the long involved procedure, but trust me, taking off with snow on one's wings is not a decision made lightly. And, as passengers are very aware of icing conditions these days, announcements are made to explain to the passengers how that decision was made. Once, when I flew the A320, I even had someone with a leaf blower blow some snow off the wings in Fort MacMurray, Alberta when it was -45C, with the passengers watching, just so they understood.

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: apruzesse13
Posted 2012-12-31 20:46:40 and read 9197 times.

But as we can see on the Rusline video, snow is still adhering after the takeoff roll and is blown off only after 4mns in flight.... So what did the captain determine in that case?

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: longhauler
Posted 2012-12-31 20:48:56 and read 9177 times.

Quoting apruzesse13 (Reply 31):
But as we can see on the Rusline video, snow is still adhering after the takeoff roll and is blown off only after 4mns in flight.... So what did the captain determine in that case?

I have no idea.
Did you ask him?

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: apruzesse13
Posted 2012-12-31 20:54:56 and read 9133 times.

I would... but don't speak Russian

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: cbphoto
Posted 2012-12-31 23:32:27 and read 8288 times.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 24):
Not quite if it just gets cold. CX's policy is to not takeoff if there is contamination on the wings. If holdover times have passed and there is nothing on the wing then we can depart. It is not for us to decide what types of contamination are ok and what isn't. If holdover times have not passed but there is contamination that the anti-ice is not taking care of then we do not depart. If conditions like that were to last two whole weeks (unlikely) then yes flights would be delayed two weeks.

Correct, what you are mentioning here is called a Pre-contamination check that the crew would do if the holdover time has expired. The crew will visually inspect the wings to make sure that snow is not adhering to the wings prior to take off. CX is by far not the only airline to have this policy!



Quoting apruzesse13 (Reply 25):
Yes? Do you have some names?
Quoting apruzesse13 (Reply 25):
Maybe a reason why TP operations in US are rapidly disappearing due to their perceived lower safety standards by the travelling public

Without working at every airline in this industry, I will not divulge names and frankly it's non of the traveling public's business what each and every airlines de-icing policy is. Just know that every part of the operating specs for an airline has to be approved by the Federal Aviation Administration, that is the governing law in this country.

And not trying to get personal, but before you go around criticizing every other countries safety record, why don't you stop and take a look at your national carriers safety record!!



Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 19):
If you ran the de-ice boots with loose snow, don't you run the risk of actually melting some of the snow from residual pneumatic heat and actually *creating* ice on the leading edge?

Absolutely, hot bleed air being pumped into those boots could melt the snow enough to cause a thin layer of ice to form.

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: apruzesse13
Posted 2013-01-01 03:16:50 and read 6790 times.

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 34):
Without working at every airline in this industry, I will not divulge names and frankly it's non of the traveling public's business what each and every airlines de-icing policy is. Just know that every part of the operating specs for an airline has to be approved by the Federal Aviation Administration, that is the governing law in this country.

Personnally I would love that an airline communicate on its deicing policy if they apply a more conservative standard than the rest of the crowd. I would tend to choose such a carrier in winter over a carrier that only respects the legally minimum mandated.

The same for airlines that choose to fly aircraft with MELd eqpt and postpone repairs until the last admissible time. Same here in Europe we hear cases about Ryanair which had to divert flights because they fuel their aircraft with only the minimum mandated for costs savings, while other carriers have a more conservative one. I think those elements are at least as important as punctuality statistics!!!

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 34):
And not trying to get personal, but before you go around criticizing every other countries safety record, why don't you stop and take a look at your national carriers safety record!!

Contrary to you, did I try to compare flight safety in the US to the one in France? It was not my intention. As to the perception of turbobrop flights by the US travelling public, I refer you to many interviews of US airline executives on the matter

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: AY-MD11
Posted 2013-01-01 05:04:12 and read 5720 times.

I have seen more snow on wings and fuselage at HEL on commuter prop saabs when departing. Have seen russian plane crew go on wing of them airplane and broom the snow out and no de-icing is needed.

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: francoflier
Posted 2013-01-01 05:10:22 and read 5647 times.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 8):
Before we assume the crew took an unacceptable risk, consider that they may have taken the safer path. Very cold weather operations are a unique beast.

Exactly, and I would think experienced Russian crews have an intimate knowledge of that beast. Which is not to say that some do not take risky liberties with it at times.

As said above, when it's extremely cold, there's no moisture and nothing much sticks to anything. There is always the risk of snow hitting a warmer surface and accumulating over it so that the bottom part of the accumulation might get close to melting and forming ice.

I'd much prefer to take off with loose snow on the wings, having checked it is indeed loose, rather than being de-iced.

Having liquid poured on a very cold wing in very cold conditions scares me... Even if it is a hot alcohol based solution.

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: Mark2fly1034
Posted 2013-01-01 06:14:57 and read 4722 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 22):
However, if CX's position is to stay at the gate when it gets cold, so be it. I have seen cold snaps in YYZ, colder than -27C last more than two weeks. I have visions of dozens of CX airplanes laying around YYZ safely arriving, but not being able to leave!

Correct me if I am wrong but ice does not form at -27C? Maybe I am thinking in F

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-01-01 06:29:16 and read 4502 times.

Quoting apruzesse13 (Reply 29):

Thx; Quite strange however as it kind of kills the whole clean aircraft concept.

So if I understand well, by Canadian rules, takeoff is strictly forbidden if snow is adhering to any critical surface........ unless the captain thinks it wont adhere long!!

You are from France according to your profile, so I guess a clean aircraft is somewhat of a rarity in your neck of the woods as well.  Actually, most captains who have trained in Canada have experience with winter conditions and use that experience to determine whether or should I say weather they can safely take off. As we say "take off to the Great White North".

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: TrnsWrld
Posted 2013-01-01 07:28:48 and read 3587 times.

Am I missing something here? I just watched the youtube video from inside the EMB-120 and I see absolutely zero ice or snow on that aircraft. mmmmk, moving on....

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2013-01-01 07:53:49 and read 3374 times.

Quoting Mark2fly1034 (Reply 38):
Correct me if I am wrong but ice does not form at -27C? Maybe I am th
inking in F

Ice will form at -27C or -27F, provided the moisture arrives in liquid form and freezes when it touches something that cold.

However for context of this discussion, they are talking about temperatures which stay far below zero (F or C).

At those temps, falling precipitation is snow. It is never sleet, freezing rain or ice. It is too cold for falling precip to become ice when it hits the ground. The precip has frozen into snow far above the ground. Only a heat source (such as the deicing boots mentioned above) can create ice at those far below zero temps.

Snow at those temps is a dusting when it falls. It makes terrible snowballs or snowmen because the snow is too cold to be able to adhere to other snowflakes and clump.

Icing in relation to aircraft is most dangerous at temps near 0C or 32F. Those temps and a bit below freezing - 5 or 10 degrees F - are where the precipitation is melting and refreezing frequently.

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-01-01 08:47:19 and read 3204 times.

Quoting apruzesse13 (Reply 35):
Personnally I would love that an airline communicate on its deicing policy if they apply a more conservative standard than the rest of the crowd. I would tend to choose such a carrier in winter over a carrier that only respects the legally minimum mandated.

That is the problem when a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. For example, when very cold it is safer to NOT de-ice, as de-icing introduces more factors to be dealt with.

With regard to ground icing accidents though, look at the conditions when they happened. USAir F28 at LGA, Air Ontario F28 at YHD, Air Florida B737 at DCA, Arrow Air DC-8 at YQX ... all were in conditions within a few degrees of 0C. That is when ground airframe icing is the most dangerous, and for obvious reasons, the easiest to deal with.

There is a reason why de-icing fluid is useless below -27C, its because its not needed. If it were needed, there would a fluid to deal with it. One of the biggest advances in ground icing safety since the accidents I mentioned above is the invention of Type IV anti-icing fluid. Long hold over times, it can handle just about anything, and is very effective from +5C to -10C.

With need comes invention.

Topic: RE: Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-01-01 09:12:57 and read 3154 times.

Quoting apruzesse13 (Thread starter):

I should also add a few things.

First of all, the people here are not advocating any unsafe procedures. They are simply explaining that under some conditions de-icing/anti-icing is not necessary, or in some cases unwise. We are not arguing with you, merely explaining some quirks with unusual weather.

With regard to the incident you mentioned at the start, without knowing all the facts one could not judge, or even comment. And most have not judged. The ones that do understand that under those conditions there are times when one does not de-ice, have said just that. We are not saying that it was right in the incident you noted, just that sometimes it is right.

Also I want to mention ...

When you looked a the Canadian Air Regs, you probably saw mentioned "The Operators Management Plan" or the "Ground Icing Operations Program". What this is referring to, is that every air carrier in Canada must submit such a plan to Transport Canada for approval. And although coming from a different source, they are all basically the same. But ... as they are airline specific, and internal, you will not actually see the rules followed, as they are not in the public domain.

Clearly these plans work, as since "The Dryden Accident" there has not been a ground icing accident in Canada. This is not a fluke ... the aviation world changed in Canada as a result of that accident.

Let me tell you a few of the procedures in AC's ground icing plan.

Both the Captain, and a required designated ground expert must agree when not de-icing. If either of the two think de-icing is required, it is done. Add to that, that F/A's too are educated in icing procedures and are required by law to advise the Captain if they think icing is required. And ... if ANY passenger expresses a concern, the operation is stopped, his concern is addressed, and the Captain personally must go back and talk to the passenger and explain how the decision was made! Even if just before take-off, it is AC policy to get out of line and address the concern.

How do I know so much about this? Not just because this is January. AC's icing plan also includes that every pilot must attend a one day classroom session on ground icing followed by a written exam where no errors are allowed!

It is not a fluke that AC has never had a ground icing accident (touch wood) ... and it is not a fluke that AC is the second safest airline on the earth ... and, it is not a fluke, then when conditions dictate, non adhering snow is not removed from the wings before take-off.


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