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Topic: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: lostsound
Posted 2012-12-18 08:24:05 and read 23169 times.

Quote:
Introducing Air Canada’s new leisure airline with stylishly affordable service to holiday spots in Europe and the Caribbean. Benefit from Air Canada’s extensive network for smooth connections to flights departing daily from Toronto and Montreal. Service begins July 1, 2013. It’s time to go more. Where will your next holiday take you?
http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/rouge.html

The website has all the information on routes, etc...
Livery is nothing special, but it's pretty eye drawing Imo.

I'm Curious to see how the cabin will be outfitted.

[Edited 2012-12-18 08:28:00]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: etops1
Posted 2012-12-18 08:30:43 and read 23125 times.

Yeah um , Why do they think its a good idea to do this ?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: finnishway
Posted 2012-12-18 08:33:58 and read 23084 times.

Quoting etops1 (Reply 1):
Why do they think its a good idea to do this ?

It is a trend nowadays.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: FlyKev
Posted 2012-12-18 08:34:37 and read 23064 times.

Wow, sounds just like Air Transat to me - then again as this is most likely their intentions.

Any word on what the cabins are going to look like? Will be curious if they can beat the new TS cabin product wise.

Kev.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: yowza
Posted 2012-12-18 08:43:42 and read 22973 times.

That's a pretty smart looking livery and YYZ-EDI is a godsend for me. Whether this is great idea however... I'm not so sure.

YOWza

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-12-18 08:54:48 and read 22836 times.

I was thinking it should be called Drapeau Rouge (Red Flag)--I wasn't far off! At least they have the same person running it that came up with its predecessor Tango; but I'm sure it's *totally* different this time!

" In 2001, while working as an independent consultant, Ben led the team that launched Tango, Air Canada's pioneering strategy in a separately branded operation and in 2002 he joined Air Canada full time as Managing Director of Tango."

What could go wrong.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: crosswinds21
Posted 2012-12-18 08:57:30 and read 22825 times.

Ok, while I am by no means an expert in LCCs, I do see some things here that make me question the viability of this venture. It seems that this "Rogue" is not at all separate from Air Canada itself and thus not really a true LCC. There are items such as:

-Booking on the AC website with AC flight numbers (operated by Rogue)
-Ability to connect to/from other AC flights in YYZ/YUL
-Ability to accrue miles
-AC Lounge access under certain conditions
-Complimentary meals on flights to Europe
-And so on...

So basically, I don't understand how this is really an LCC and I don't see how this model is different from the failed LCC spinoffs such as Song and TED. (Yes, I understand that the actual flights will be operated by a separate group with different wages, etc., but that in itself does not guarantee a successful airline.) I am also guessing that the managament/opearations/strategy/planning/etc. will also be done by AC and not by Rogue? If this is the case, then how is this venture going to succeed?

Again, like I said, I'm not at all an expert in this field and I'm just stating some of my observations. So if I'm wrong in any of this, I'd love to understand how.

Thanks...

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: SW733
Posted 2012-12-18 09:01:38 and read 22739 times.

Quoting yowza (Reply 4):
That's a pretty smart looking livery and YYZ-EDI is a godsend for me. Whether this is great idea however... I'm not so sure.

It definitely makes sense to me...in the summer.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2012-12-18 09:05:00 and read 22699 times.

The livery is like the Air Canada of old.
What about DUB? Was that not expected to be included?

Wonder why they went for EDI over GLA? YYZ has never managed more than once weekly with Worldways then Air Transat, indeed it was recently dropped. Good news though.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: VCy
Posted 2012-12-18 09:05:27 and read 22698 times.

the livery looks gorgeous!  
I'd expect more leisure destinations to Europe tho, like BCN, FCO, MXP, NCE  

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: YXD172
Posted 2012-12-18 09:18:20 and read 22497 times.

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 6):

-Booking on the AC website with AC flight numbers (operated by Rogue)
-Ability to connect to/from other AC flights in YYZ/YUL
-Ability to accrue miles
-AC Lounge access under certain conditions
-Complimentary meals on flights to Europe
-And so on...

While some of these are definitely not your typical LCC style, I have a feeling that the new LCC is mainly geared at lowering staffing costs and flying higher density aircraft. Using AC's existing site makes sense, and meals to Europe are needed unless they want to reduce service below TS / WG. The other factors allow them to offer three tiers of fares, and I'm sure that the extra revenue from Lattitude will more than offset the extra costs if they can sell the higher priced tickets.

That said, I'm not too sure how I feel about 29" pitch on the A319s! I avoided 5G flights for that reason, and with WS and TS offering more legroom (and better service in TS's case)... Even WG offers complimentary food (and wine!) on their Caribbean flights, so I guess it all comes down to price.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: northstardc4m
Posted 2012-12-18 09:20:41 and read 22462 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 8):
Wonder why they went for EDI over GLA? YYZ has never managed more than once weekly with Worldways then Air Transat, indeed it was recently dropped. Good news though.

I would guess they are offering it in conjunction with a group tour or something.

I'll hold my breath on the livery till i see it in person, looks good though.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: mpsrent
Posted 2012-12-18 09:22:05 and read 22450 times.

I was hoping for YYZ to MAN as such a large, central and popular British destination for Canadians could use more flight options. In any case I can understand why they selected EDI to avoid strong competition with TS while DUB and GLA are well serviced by TS.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: spqr
Posted 2012-12-18 09:24:13 and read 22418 times.

gah what a horrible name, works OK in French I guess, but in English who would want to fly an airline named after make-up?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: kaitak
Posted 2012-12-18 09:24:23 and read 22409 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 8):
The livery is like the Air Canada of old.
What about DUB? Was that not expected to be included?

I was wondering that myself; still, probably a good thing, because it means that mainline AC is staying on the DUB route. I have a horrible feeling that they might go 8 abreast on these 767s and that's not a comfortable prospect for anyone, complimentary meals or not.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: saloman
Posted 2012-12-18 09:32:56 and read 22321 times.

Another question is how they will treat Star Gold pax from other airlines. They only mention AC top tier on that webpage getting lounge access, so it'll be interesting to see how harmonized it actually will be with mainline. that would certainly be an easy way to curb costs, but I'm unclear as to what their obligations would actually be vis-a-vis ACs Star membership.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: blink182
Posted 2012-12-18 09:39:07 and read 22269 times.

Quoting spqr (Reply 13):
gah what a horrible name, works OK in French I guess, but in English who would want to fly an airline named after make-up?

All AC needs to do is buy the rights to this gem of a commercial from the 1990s and voila!

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: BlueShamu330s
Posted 2012-12-18 09:45:10 and read 22197 times.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 14):
I have a horrible feeling that they might go 8 abreast on these 767s and that's not a comfortable prospect for anyone, complimentary meals or not.

Seat map shows 2-3-2, whilst the Executive rows 1-3 are marked as "Cabin details coming soon."

http://www.aircanada.com/shared/en/c.../fleet/pop_fleetb767-300rouge.html

Rgds

[Edited 2012-12-18 09:54:20]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: northstardc4m
Posted 2012-12-18 10:03:06 and read 21994 times.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 14):
I have a horrible feeling that they might go 8 abreast on these 767s and that's not a comfortable prospect for anyone, complimentary meals or not.

I don't think they can with the current exit configuration, they would need to have the A-A-I-A 4 door config to support that seating density.

AC are in the A-III-III-A 2 overwing hatch config:

View Large View Medium
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Photo © Nino Buda
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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Daniel MacFarlane

CP Had some leased 763s in the A-A-I-A config, but i believe they were all returned to lessors after the merger (they were all -3Y0s), and i can't find anyone operating 2-4-2 with anything but 4 doors.

[Edited 2012-12-18 10:10:56]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-12-18 10:07:51 and read 21956 times.

Quoting etops1 (Reply 1):
Yeah um , Why do they think its a good idea to do this ?

You're not a real airline until you've made a "low cost" spin off and folded it after a couple years   

Not saying it WILL fail, but the track record hasn't been good for the other airlines. It's hard for an airline to lower its costs even in a different entity, IIRC, Song still had higher costs as a spin off than B6 or WN.

Good luck to them. If anything, I hope they learn something from it if they fail at it. Song was considered a failure by many, but if you look at DL today, they are basically half-Song half-Delta... they incorporated a lot from Song even if the brand disappeared

Edit: I live the livery except the "rouge" on it looks pretty tacky

[Edited 2012-12-18 10:09:13]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2012-12-18 10:08:02 and read 21946 times.

So is DUB staying with Air Canda mainline?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: polaris
Posted 2012-12-18 10:12:52 and read 21882 times.

Good name...good look...should stand out in the skies and at airports. Wonder if the call sign will be aircanada or rouge or aircanada rouge.

The rouge/red of the leisure division contrasts nicely with the silver sky colour of the mainline...red - fun; blue - business.

Venice, Edinburgh - not expected as first destinations but this is the leisure division, after all. Athens, not surprised. This is also a cruise destination so fits in perfectly with Air Canada Vacations.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: Giancavia
Posted 2012-12-18 10:16:04 and read 21833 times.

Stupid idea to start up this company but kudos on the scheme I think it is a lot nicer then the horrible toothpaste livery.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: polaris
Posted 2012-12-18 10:16:18 and read 21834 times.

Dublin stays with mainline. Year-round service is expected. Code-share with Aer Lingus is coming as announced in media release earlier this year.

[Edited 2012-12-18 10:29:07]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: SXDFC
Posted 2012-12-18 10:27:31 and read 21736 times.

I wish AC would use this for their regular color scheme.. Substitute the Red for the blue that they currently use, that would be one good looking plane..

Best of luck to this new airline, how many years will this one last?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: polaris
Posted 2012-12-18 10:37:33 and read 22414 times.

The first two 767s moving to rouge are C-GHPE fin no. 691 and C-GHPN fin no. 692.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: voodoo
Posted 2012-12-18 10:37:37 and read 22375 times.

I hereby nickname the airline AC Rogue.



Oh I see Crosswinds21 (Reply 6) has done so already. Whether intentionally or not, doesn't matter!


[Edited 2012-12-18 10:44:07]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: northstardc4m
Posted 2012-12-18 10:44:18 and read 22893 times.

Quoting polaris (Reply 25):
The first two 767s moving to rouge are C-GHPE fin no. 691 and C-GHPN fin no. 692.

Both ex-Hawaiian and recent additions to AC...

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2012-12-18 10:45:07 and read 22851 times.

Id like to see Rouge, junked and AC adopt the entire scheme though.

Why are these markets important to AC? AC is a business airline, why are they trying to compete for low yield crap? AC gets in trouble when they try to chase the marginal passenger. My guess is they are scared of Air Transat and WestJet becoming too big overall. This is entirely a defensive move.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: aamd11
Posted 2012-12-18 11:17:34 and read 22644 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 19):
You're not a real airline until you've made a "low cost" spin off and folded it after a couple years   

View Large View Medium
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Photo © Aaron Mandolesi
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Photo © Ron Peel



  

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: Kcrwflyer
Posted 2012-12-18 11:21:01 and read 22564 times.

This has not worked out for any airline yet, and failed twice for AC. What is different about this? How do you offer lower fares if your costs are the same?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: by738
Posted 2012-12-18 11:31:31 and read 22422 times.

I suspect we'll be revisiting this thread in 2 years time in a Jazz/ Tango style.... rolls eyes, with marginal routes dropped quickly

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: lostsound
Posted 2012-12-18 11:36:04 and read 22359 times.

Air Canada's though process:

"Hey you know what we haven't done in a while?...."

[Edited 2012-12-18 11:36:45]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: Aquila3
Posted 2012-12-18 11:40:44 and read 22283 times.

Love that livery!

I hope they will soon fly MXP or VIE in the winter.
I might get a round-trip the other way to see some great NHL game!

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: catII
Posted 2012-12-18 11:52:04 and read 22162 times.

Tango was never meant to be "low cost", as in overall lower operating costs. It was a different brand within a brand and was actually quite successful. It's now implemented on mainline fares, Tango basically means lowest fare. It allowed Air Canada to separate it's mainline brand (higher service) without alienating its mainline pax. When it integrated these fares within the mainline fare, they were able to sell the same brand (concept) within mainline. You pay less, you get less is the "low cost" meaning on these fares. This also helped AC introduce it's a-la-carte fare options by adding on items such as food, bags, etc. Tango was also a longer haul, sun destination airline. The name comes from 'tan and go', as you would when you head to Mexico or the Caribbean.

Zip was different, the FA's were non-unionized, the pilots were part of mainline (as Rouge will be, albeit on a lower pay scale). Zip wasn't meant to fly out east, it was started with the same aircraft as WestJet (737-200) to compete with it on the same routes out west. This airline was discount, no frills, low cost. It was started while AC was in CCAA and was eventually absorbed by AC after they excited bankruptcy protection (CCAA).

There is a method to the madness, I suppose. Whether this is a long term thing, we shall see. But I definitely understand why they're doing this. This is going to allow them to compete with the likes of Transat, WestJet and Sunwing. Mainline is losing too many routes from the stiff competition these companies are providing. This at least allows them to compete on a lower cost structure and it does effectively differentiate mainline flying from the leisure division. I think you're going to see a fairly significant transformation of mainline with a different business class on the newer aircraft, premium economy etc. They will no longer have to mix the two concepts of leisure and business into one airline. This allows them to tailor to one or the other. There is now a push from the uppers internally to obtain "4 star" airline status on mainline and I think they know what needs to be done for that to happen. That doesn't include low yield routes to leisure oriented destinations.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: BE77
Posted 2012-12-18 12:13:05 and read 22040 times.

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 6):
operated by Rogue

I'll give you full credit, even if there was an assist from spell check  
Quoting spqr (Reply 13):
but in English who would want to fly an airline named after make-up?

See Crosswinds21 reply 6 for the English translation

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 19):
You're not a real airline until you've made a "low cost" spin off and folded it after a couple years

Yah, but do you need to do it over and over? AC already owns a couple versions of this T Shirt.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 28):
AC is a business airline, why are they trying to compete for low yield crap?

As Elite for about the 10th time, I agree. I also fly WS a lot, but for international that doesn't work so well, and on the trunk domestic routes the extra frequency sure makes my work travel a lot less painful.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: redzeppelin
Posted 2012-12-18 12:41:26 and read 21725 times.

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 30):
This has not worked out for any airline yet

We've certainly seen it play out poorly in North America, with the likes of Tango, Ted and Song. But what about elsewhere? Is Germanwings working out well for LH? Jetstar/QF? Scoot/SQ? Too soon to tell?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: tayser
Posted 2012-12-18 13:09:54 and read 21569 times.

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 6):
-Booking on the AC website with AC flight numbers (operated by Rogue)
-Ability to connect to/from other AC flights in YYZ/YUL
-Ability to accrue miles
-AC Lounge access under certain conditions
-Complimentary meals on flights to Europe
-And so on...

Jetstar brand flights:
- Can be booked through QF mainline site (go to qantas.com.au and look at MEL-ADL or MEL-SYD options - you'll see the myriad of QF flights and JQ flights in the same search result)
- Can connect to/from other QF flights via interline in any large Australian port (go to qantas.com.au and do a dummy booking for MEL-KUL - you'll see JQ/JQ, QF/JQ, QF/MH, JQ/MH options via SIN)
- Can accrue QF FF points: http://www.jetstar.com/au/en/planning-and-booking/fares/fare-types
- Can get you access to QF lounges: http://www.jetstar.com/au/en/planning-and-booking/fares/fare-types
- Can get complimentary food/drinks (if you pay the appropriate fare level): http://www.jetstar.com/au/en/planning-and-booking/fares/fare-types

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-12-18 13:19:33 and read 21611 times.

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 6):
It seems that this "Rogue" is not at all separate from Air Canada
Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 6):
-Booking on the AC website with AC flight numbers (operated by Rogue)
Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 6):
am also guessing that the managament/opearations/strategy/planning/etc. will also be done by AC and not by Rogue?

The name is "Rouge" ("red" in French), not "Rogue".

Quoting spqr (Reply 13):
but in English who would want to fly an airline named after make-up?

Most English-speaking Canadians have studied enough French to know that "rouge" means "red", a colour long associated with AC.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: yyz717
Posted 2012-12-18 13:32:46 and read 21443 times.

Sharp livery.


Quoting spqr (Reply 13):
gah what a horrible name, works OK in French I guess, but in English who would want to fly an airline named after make-up?

Agree. Horrible name. Awkward in English. Translates into AC "Lipstick" which is non-sensical. It WILL be called AC Rogue when the renowned AC customer service problems occur.

I find it odd they would choose a French name to cater to an overwhelming English-speaking market -- but then AC mgmt has always been out of touch with the marketplace.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 20):
So is DUB staying with Air Canda mainline?
AC Rogue will grow over time and add more 763's. Then (likely) DUB, BCN, FCO and MAD will migrate over in time.

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 30):
This has not worked out for any airline yet, and failed twice for AC. What is different about this? How do you offer lower fares if your costs are the same?

Higher density seating and hence lower unit costs. In theory.

Quoting catII (Reply 34):
There is a method to the madness, I suppose.

I see the madness, but not (yet) the method.

[Edited 2012-12-18 13:39:13]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: luv2fly
Posted 2012-12-18 13:49:41 and read 21139 times.

The only area that I ever see this concept work is the South Pacific / Asia! And why you ask, as they run those as totally separate from the parent compnay. I don't see this lasting, Tango or Wizz part 2 or should I say Duex!

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: Giancavia
Posted 2012-12-18 13:51:04 and read 21086 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 38):
Most English-speaking Canadians have studied enough French to know that "rouge" means "red", a colour long associated with AC.

Red will certainly be more fitting then Black when it comes to doing the books.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: BeyondBristol
Posted 2012-12-18 14:05:43 and read 20829 times.

I maybe missing the obvious here but I can't see anything that says this is a LCC. Throughout the site they refer to it as a "leisure airline". I don't follow AC much so I don't know if in the concept stages it was referred to as an LCC, but this appears to be a leisure operation much like BA and VS operate from LGW/MAN where you would expect to see widebody aircraft with meal service, etc.

Am I missing something?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: GCT64
Posted 2012-12-18 14:06:07 and read 20876 times.

EDI-YYZ is good news for those of us who have a team based in Edinburgh (I do, so am always interested in new options for them) or visiting Edinburgh. Gives another non-backtracking option for business trips to the US as an alternative to EDI-EWR on UA.

I wonder if this is a result of the more aggressively competitive GIP taking over EDI from BAA?

The BBC have picked it up: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-20768453

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: yyz717
Posted 2012-12-18 14:24:09 and read 20610 times.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 41):
Red will certainly be more fitting then Black when it comes to doing the books.

Good one!  
Quoting BeyondBristol (Reply 42):
I maybe missing the obvious here but I can't see anything that says this is a LCC.

You're missing nothing. There is nothing LCC about this. AC is the highest cost carrier in North America (and the only remaining NA carrier getting government support). Rogue can MAYBE lower costs towards Air Transat, Westjet and Sunwing (AC's 3 primary competitors) through higher density seating but their costs will still be higher, and in a commodity business where lowest costs rule, Rogue will likely fail.

When you put rouge on a pig, it's still a pig.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: 9252fly
Posted 2012-12-18 14:27:36 and read 20440 times.

Quoting BeyondBristol (Reply 42):
I don't know if in the concept stages it was referred to as an LCC, but this appears to be a leisure operation

I think the intent was to operate the division with lower costs, which based on recent agreements with pilots and flights attendants, should result in that occurring. You are correct in comparing it more to a leisure operation than a LCC. To me it appears to be a strategy to remain in low-yielding markets without having the mainline operation exit a route because of it's higher costs. As an added benefit, it should allow them to reenter markets that they have discontinued, such as EDI.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: canadiantree
Posted 2012-12-18 14:29:03 and read 20419 times.

I'm not a fan of the livery, it looks very much like the Air Berlin livery which I think is boring. I'm already mad that Niki changed their livery to Air Berlin's scheme...

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Air-B...d=36bc71d5f8559dbf318dc4d1914fcb6d

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: IndianicWorld
Posted 2012-12-18 14:29:47 and read 20431 times.

Someone at AC has a fascination with coming up with new names to add to the list.

Jazz, Tango, Jetz and now Rouge... Interesting.

Livery looks good though.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: jpyvr
Posted 2012-12-18 14:35:20 and read 20317 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 44):
(and the only remaining NA carrier getting government support)

Could you please specify exactly what government support AC receives (other than what other Canadian airlines might receive). Historically, AC was a Crown Corporation, but as far as I had understood, it was privatized some time ago. I'm curious what you mean by the only NA carrier getting government support. Thanks!

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: yyz717
Posted 2012-12-18 14:50:12 and read 20072 times.

Quoting jpyvr (Reply 48):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 44):
(and the only remaining NA carrier getting government support)

Could you please specify exactly what government support AC receives
Quoting jpyvr (Reply 48):
it was privatized some time ago.

Glad to. Here's a couple:
1. The Federal Government intervened recently when AC unions were going to strike, preventing such a strike through legislation. This is a gross violation of the collective bargaining process, and deliberate favouritism towards AC mgmt by an interfering government. AC should be left to the marketplace to build or lose its fortune.
2. AC continues to operate lucrative international routes awarded to it when it was a Crown Corporation. These entrenched aurthorities represent an unfair market advantage overtly provided by a protective government, that continue to benefit AC today. AC's international route authority into all markets it operated to when it was privatized should be relinquished and put up to tender for all Cdn carriers. AC can of course bid on these routes fairly, along with WS, TS and anyone else. Then, and only then, will the Cdn industry be truly market driven, and a level playing field.

Quoting canadiantree (Reply 46):
it looks very much like the Air Berlin livery

Another financially troubled carrier....just like AC.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: LhrRampRats
Posted 2012-12-18 14:52:44 and read 20069 times.

Not a fan of the livery. A quick glimpse at an airport and your first thought would be Qantas not to mention Air Berlin or TAM with regards to the back half of it.
Queue all the abuse!!   

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2012-12-18 15:03:43 and read 19844 times.

There are markets where Air Canada used to have a presence in which it can no longers serve to it's comparably higher cost base. It lost the UK to Zoom, flyGlobespan and Air Transat and now 2/3 have gone bust, it's a market that they feel they'd like to be a part of.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: Skywatcher
Posted 2012-12-18 15:05:37 and read 19752 times.

The Canadian air transport market is unique in the world. The exclusivly "leisure" carriers (Sunwing and Air Transat) go head to head with the "traditional" carriers (Westjet and AC) on hundreds of route pairings.
During the winter season the number of flights from Canada to Cuba/Mexico/Dominican Republic/Other Caribean destinations on these 4 airlines alone are huge. During an off day like today (Tuesday) there are 39 flights from YYZ and 13 from YUL to the aforementioned leisure areas and that doesn't even include Florida or any foreign airlines (Cubana/BWIA/transferring via the U.S. etc).I doubt that any other city in North America (except Miami) has anywhere near the number of flights that YYZ does to these leisure destinations.

I think comparing Rouge to what is going on in other markets like Australia, the U.S. or Asia is simply not legitimate.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: JHCRJ700
Posted 2012-12-18 15:15:57 and read 19591 times.

Wasn't there an airline called "Zoom" a few years back that tried something like this?   

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-12-18 15:25:58 and read 19392 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 49):
AC continues to operate lucrative international routes awarded to it when it was a Crown Corporation. These entrenched aurthorities represent an unfair market advantage overtly provided by a protective government, that continue to benefit AC today. AC's international route authority into all markets it operated to when it was privatized should be relinquished and put up to tender for all Cdn carriers. AC can of course bid on these routes fairly, along with WS, TS and anyone else. Then, and only then, will the Cdn industry be truly market driven, and a level playing field.

You're overlooking that many of those markets, for example at least 30 countries in Europe, now have Open Skies bilaterals that permit any carrier to begin service, and many other bilaterals that were once limited to a single carrier from the origin and destination countries, now permit multiple designation. How, for example, would the government take away AC's international route authority to LHR/FRA/CDG/SCL to name only a few (plus all 50+ of their U.S. destinations), when they and any other Canadian carrier have complete freedom to start service tomorrow?

Another example of a more restrictive bilateral - Australia. Two Canadian carriers once operated to Australia but I don't see anyone scrambling to replace Canada 3000's short-lived service prior to their going bust.

[Edited 2012-12-18 15:26:50]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-12-18 15:43:37 and read 19083 times.

Quoting aamd11 (Reply 29):
Quoting BE77 (Reply 35):
Yah, but do you need to do it over and over? AC already owns a couple versions of this T Shirt.

LOL I didn't realize that... is there at least a substantial difference in Rogue or are they trying the same ol crap again?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: CaptCufflinks
Posted 2012-12-18 15:43:58 and read 19092 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 8):
What about DUB? Was that not expected to be included?

When I first clicked the link I thought to myself, will they operate DUB? Maybe even BFS like TS do? Very surprised to see neither route.

I don't think this is like TSC or OOM, it looks to me like they have this entity called "Air Canada Vacations" and the marketing people decided that was getting a bit old and needed a bit of a push, hence Rouge.

I love the ACA Boeing 767's, so to see them flying some new interesting routes can only be a good thing from an Airnutter's perspective!

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: 9252fly
Posted 2012-12-18 16:30:12 and read 18520 times.

For those disappointed with the limited European network, it should noted that it appears that it's just a start as there will only be 2 B763's initially. I'm not going to speculate if this venture will succeed, time will tell. I don't think AC has any option other than to try, and if it's fails, then it will not have been a costly exercise.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: YYZYYT
Posted 2012-12-18 18:42:20 and read 17249 times.

Quoting FlyKev (Reply 3):
Wow, sounds just like Air Transat to me - then again as this is most likely their intentions.

Any word on what the cabins are going to look like? Will be curious if they can beat the new TS cabin product wise.

Kev.
Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 17):
Seat map shows 2-3-2, whilst the Executive rows 1-3 are marked as "Cabin details coming soon."

evening news was reporting a 30 inch seat pitch... If true, ouch.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: YVRLTN
Posted 2012-12-18 19:17:20 and read 16963 times.

Will future expansion plans include YVR or is this a YYZ / YUL outfit only?

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 8):
Wonder why they went for EDI over GLA

They say they are a leisure airline, so I guess there is a lot more tourism in EDI than GLA. Probably more business too with banking if business people are prepared to be cramed into a leisure seat if the time saving is worth it vs connecting over LHR, AMS or FRA. With BD gone, no Star connection over LHR now either, so those limited miles may also be better than nothing.

Great for us anyway, my wifes family is from Fife so saves backtracking to AMS, paying crazy BA fares via LHR or the lovely drive to GLA to get on TS which is usually one flight per week so not too flexible. I suppose VS is now an option.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 28):
Why are these markets important to AC? AC is a business airline, why are they trying to compete for low yield crap? AC gets in trouble when they try to chase the marginal passenger. My guess is they are scared of Air Transat and WestJet becoming too big overall. This is entirely a defensive move.

   Particularly the new product at TS is actually not bad.

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 33):
Love that livery!

   Think they dusted on the Air BC livery from the archive and modernized it with the ubiquitous eurowhite.

BC/British-Aerospace-BAe-146-200A/1797391/L/" target="_blank">View Large BC/British-Aerospace-BAe-146-200A/1797391/M/" target="_blank">View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Eggert Norðdahl

Have to say I do like the mainline toothpaste too though, particularly in winter sunlight.

Quoting catII (Reply 34):
Tango was never meant to be "low cost", as in overall lower operating costs. It was a different brand within a brand and was actually quite successful. It's now implemented on mainline fares

Exactly, it lives on today as fare structure across the board rather than a stand alone branding.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 38):
Most English-speaking Canadians have studied enough French to know that "rouge" means "red", a colour long associated with AC.

But the slogan is Rouge to go, when we all now we stop at red...

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 41):
Red will certainly be more fitting then Black when it comes to doing the books.

Maybe the new WS longhaul will ne called Westjet Noire  

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: cyeg66
Posted 2012-12-18 21:48:31 and read 15697 times.

This is all unsurprisingly boring news from an airline with an even more underwhelming sense of originality. Be sure to thank the Feds when this venture folds later on (at great expense). "Rouge". Terriblement cle-verrrrre., oui? Yay. Go eastern Canada... Back to sleep, now.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2012-12-18 22:40:01 and read 15351 times.

Quoting cyeg66 (Reply 60):

The Feds? What do they have to do with this?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: airlinebuilder
Posted 2012-12-18 23:07:58 and read 15162 times.

The livery is somewhat striking though it gives out an impression of air berlin on first look but the appreciation rises and it calls ones attention even way more than the current ice cold theme Air Canada Legacy line

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: SEA
Posted 2012-12-18 23:29:43 and read 15020 times.

I really like the tail treatment, though the rest is pretty bland.

I wish AC the best, but I can't help but think this will be a distant memory in a decade.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: panam330
Posted 2012-12-19 00:15:54 and read 14735 times.

What a waste of money. I dig the tail on the livery, though. It'd look excellent on the existing AC fleet.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: CuriousFlyer
Posted 2012-12-19 00:58:24 and read 14518 times.

I like the livery

This will be an all-coach service??

Flights Yul-Ath for $949, LGA-ATH $2270!

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: abrelosojos
Posted 2012-12-19 01:16:44 and read 14435 times.

Can someone please tell me how the fares they have given as introductory are revolutionary? While they may be able to make money off this idea, increasingly I find AC uninspiring.

Saludos,
A.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: nighthawk
Posted 2012-12-19 01:17:22 and read 14447 times.

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 45):
As an added benefit, it should allow them to reenter markets that they have discontinued, such as EDI.

Air Canada never served EDI, they did however serve GLA.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 8):
Wonder why they went for EDI over GLA? YYZ has never managed more than once weekly with Worldways then Air Transat, indeed it was recently dropped. Good news though.

I was wondering that too. I guess it depends on who the flights will be marketed to. Glasgow is the main population centre, and tends to have a lot of outbound demand, however EDI is the main tourism and business city, and tends to attract more inbound traffic. If the flights are being marketed mainly at Canadian holiday makers, then EDI might be the more appealing destination.

Also add to that the fact that Air Transat already fly from GLA, so there is less competition out of EDI. However, in reality it probably came down to which airport was prepared to offer the best deal.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: MH017
Posted 2012-12-19 02:36:02 and read 13997 times.

Is this AC's way to push TS off the (mainly) Transatlantic market ?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2012-12-19 02:49:34 and read 13942 times.

Actually AC had a base at Prestwick long before they moved to Glasgow in May 1990. The long haul product on the TriStars was virtually all economy, indeed charter flights were often seen as well. We also used to see high Y B747-100s up against WD. The more things change, the more things stay the same....

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2012-12-19 04:45:27 and read 13292 times.

Quoting MH017 (Reply 68):
Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 66):

YYZ - EDI - $949 special introductory fare
YUL - EDI - $1048 special introductory fare

Very revolutionary if you ask me, because for those fares you get 30" pitch and 3" of recline (never did understand how recline is measured), 800 miles (or around 20-25% of the miles travelled) and no IFE. I honestly can't think of a crappier Y product at that fare anywhere in the developed or even developing world. To put it in perspective, TK YYZ-IST goes for a similar fare, albeit with 32" seat pitch, 6" of recline and IFE. Pretty freaking revolutionary insofar as it marks a new low in Canadian air service standards.

Will it beat TS? your guess is as good as mine.

Interesting to note the absence of the AC folk on this thread. Guess they ve been told to maintain radio silence.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: brilondon
Posted 2012-12-19 05:13:35 and read 12959 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 20):
So is DUB staying with Air Canda mainline?

I hope that is the case. It is hard enough to go and visit my 88 year old grandmother in Swords.

Quoting spqr (Reply 13):

gah what a horrible name, works OK in French I guess, but in English who would want to fly an airline named after make-up?

It means red.

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 33):

Love that livery!

I hope they will soon fly MXP or VIE in the winter.
I might get a round-trip the other way to see some great NHL game!

You can see an NHL game now, just go to any European hockey game, all the good players are in Switzerland.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 38):

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 6):
It seems that this "Rogue" is not at all separate from Air Canada
Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 6):
-Booking on the AC website with AC flight numbers (operated by Rogue)
Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 6):
am also guessing that the managament/opearations/strategy/planning/etc. will also be done by AC and not by Rogue?

The name is "Rouge" ("red" in French), not "Rogue".

Exactly
  

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: Fly2yyz
Posted 2012-12-19 05:44:41 and read 12645 times.

Hmm... anyone realize that air travel in Canada is terribly expensive...yes probably due to taxes as well....but why isn't AC offering any domestic routings...the routings it seems they make great money on charging higher prices than say being able to fly YVR-YUL affordably.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: lostsound
Posted 2012-12-19 06:05:21 and read 12444 times.

Quoting Fly2yyz (Reply 72):
Hmm... anyone realize that air travel in Canada is terribly expensive...yes probably due to taxes as well....but why isn't AC offering any domestic routings...the routings it seems they make great money on charging higher prices than say being able to fly YVR-YUL affordably.


I agree. Flying out of YYT is very expensive, even just to get to YHZ.

I think Canada needs a 3rd full service airline (4th if you feel like including Porter). That would create competition, thus lowering fares.

I know people here keep saying there is no room for any more domestic carriers in Canada but I strongly believe that is not true. With the right CEO & business plan, strong funding, and clever advertising I'm confident it can be done without being acquired by Air Canada.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: aamd11
Posted 2012-12-19 06:08:01 and read 12412 times.

I hope the winners of the "name our airline" competition get seats up at the front of the bus.  

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: FlyingFan18
Posted 2012-12-19 06:54:40 and read 12007 times.

The seat layout reminds me of the not so good flight I had to BCN on AA. I thought AC would be better than that. I wish them luck on it though.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: nkops
Posted 2012-12-19 07:40:25 and read 11627 times.

142 seats on the 319-100... very Spirit-esque..... just remove one of the aft lavs and add 3 more seats.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: drgmobile
Posted 2012-12-19 08:10:08 and read 11332 times.

]Stupid idea to start up this company but kudos on the scheme I think it is a lot nicer then the horrible toothpaste livery.[/quote]

What specifically makes it "stupid?"

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: crosswinds21
Posted 2012-12-19 08:30:01 and read 11173 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 38):
The name is "Rouge" ("red" in French), not "Rogue".

Ok, point taken. Although "Rogue" (i.e. a "renegade") would also not be the worst name for an LCC.  

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: airtrainer
Posted 2012-12-19 08:38:29 and read 11120 times.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 66):
Can someone please tell me how the fares they have given as introductory are revolutionary? While they may be able to make money off this idea, increasingly I find AC uninspiring.
Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 70):

YYZ - EDI - $949 special introductory fare
YUL - EDI - $1048 special introductory fare

Very revolutionary if you ask me, because for those fares you get 30" pitch and 3" of recline (never did understand how recline is measured), 800 miles (or around 20-25% of the miles travelled) and no IFE. I honestly can't think of a crappier Y product at that fare anywhere in the developed or even developing world. To put it in perspective, TK YYZ-IST goes for a similar fare, albeit with 32" seat pitch, 6" of recline and IFE. Pretty freaking revolutionary insofar as it marks a new low in Canadian air service standards.

That's what I was wondering. I just picked a random date and found fares to VCE way cheaper than the advertised launch fare  

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: nighthawk
Posted 2012-12-19 08:39:35 and read 11106 times.

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 78):
Ok, point taken. Although "Rogue" (i.e. a "renegade") would also not be the worst name for an LCC.

I think we have taken a whole 5 minutes to come up with the nickname that this venture will forever be remembered as...

Air Canada Rogue.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: Shuttle9juliet
Posted 2012-12-19 08:42:58 and read 11109 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 8):

I would think EDI over GLA as no competition to YYZ from there, well maybe apart from a Thomas Cook 757 in the summer, if it still operates? I think Rouge cost base be a little higher than TS so start afresh from EDI and see how it goes..

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: Skywatcher
Posted 2012-12-19 09:00:25 and read 11061 times.

Air Transat just reported sharply above expected quarterly results (75 cents actual vs. 42 cents expected). They specifically reported that last summer's trans-Atlantic business was "arguably the best ever". Maybe the folks at AC aren't so stupid.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2012-12-19 09:43:18 and read 10969 times.

"Two of our 767s have gone rogue!"

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: longhauler
Posted 2012-12-19 09:43:25 and read 11008 times.

Quoting Skywatcher (Reply 82):
Air Transat just reported sharply above expected quarterly results (75 cents actual vs. 42 cents expected). They specifically reported that last summer's trans-Atlantic business was "arguably the best ever". Maybe the folks at AC aren't so stupid.

Last summer, Transat carried more Canadians across the Atlantic than Air Canada. (which also means more than anyone else!)

That is what the leisure traveler wants, a cheap seat ... and Transat delivers it ... in spades! Rouge is aimed at just that. A cheap, safe, reliable seat. Ignoring the competition when it is walking all over you never works!

I too am curious if this is going to work, as so far, other than the higher seating density, and the lower pilot wages, nothing else is cheaper. I fear it will end up like Zip. (Tango is different, as the Tango concept of a la carte pricing still exists).

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-12-19 10:20:45 and read 10893 times.

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 30):
This has not worked out for any airline yet, and failed twice for AC.

I wouldn't say Tango and Zip failed. Tango was just a brand and was folded into the mainline airline and now exists as the two lowest fare categories. Zip was a LCC with some staff hired at lower salaries and worked well to make use of the ex-CP 737-200s until they were retired.

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 58):
Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 17):
Seat map shows 2-3-2, whilst the Executive rows 1-3 are marked as "Cabin details coming soon."

evening news was reporting a 30 inch seat pitch... If true, ouch.
Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 70):
because for those fares you get 30" pitch

With many of the new lightweight, thin-back seats you have more effective legroom at 30 inch pitch than with the older, bulkier seats at 32 inches. Comparing seat pitch alone is meaningless. Many major carriers have installed the lightweight seats. For example, the Recaro seats on LX A319/320/321s at 31 inch pitch have as much legroom than the previous seats at 33 or 34 inch pitch. And the additional seats the reduced pitch permits generate a lot of additional revenue. And a 7-abreast 767 is much better than the cramped 8-abreast of Air Transat A310s and 330s. In fact, 7-abreast on a 767 is the best widebody configuration of all and more than makes up for an inch or two of seat pitch. How many other widebodies can operate at an 87% load factor before anyone has to sit in a middle seat?

Quoting lostsound (Reply 73):
know people here keep saying there is no room for any more domestic carriers in Canada but I strongly believe that is not true. With the right CEO & business plan, strong funding, and clever advertising I'm confident it can be done

How many Canadian carriers have tried and failed? Wardair, Canada 3000, Jetsgo, Greyhound Air, Roots Air, and the list goes on.

Quoting nkops (Reply 76):
142 seats on the 319

Still much better than 156 seats on EasyJet A319s (and 29 inch pitch).

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: Shuttle9juliet
Posted 2012-12-19 10:26:48 and read 10869 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 84):

Hi Longhauler, I am sure we were speaking about this the other day ...Strange it came up today.Will AC use existing flight deck or are they recruiting out with?

Rgds

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: Fly2yyz
Posted 2012-12-19 10:29:06 and read 10863 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 85):
How many Canadian carriers have tried and failed? Wardair, Canada 3000, Jetsgo, Greyhound Air, Roots Air, and the list goes on.

Can't the same be said about Canada/International carriers that flew to Canada and had either been driven out of business due to AC/bad business model/etc?

Zoom, FlyGlobeSpan, Virgin America, Alaska, LTU, etc etc?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-12-19 10:32:02 and read 10846 times.

Quoting Fly2yyz (Reply 87):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 85):
How many Canadian carriers have tried and failed? Wardair, Canada 3000, Jetsgo, Greyhound Air, Roots Air, and the list goes on.

Can't the same be said about Canada/International carriers that flew to Canada and had either been driven out of business due to AC/bad business model/etc?

Zoom, FlyGlobeSpan, Virgin America, Alaska, LTU, etc etc?

Yes but the post I was replying to was referring to new carriers operating domestic routes in Canada. Foreign carriers can't do that.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: lostsound
Posted 2012-12-19 10:35:22 and read 10837 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 85):
How many Canadian carriers have tried and failed? Wardair, Canada 3000, Jetsgo, Greyhound Air, Roots Air, and the list goes on.

Yes, they were all poor business models. In order to survive in Canada you need a good product, a frequent flyer program, competitive frequency, and the lowest possible fare.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: Aquila3
Posted 2012-12-19 10:53:43 and read 10791 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 71):
You can see an NHL game now, just go to any European hockey game, all the good players are in Switzerland.

Hate to argue with a Canadian about that, but,
that is only partially true for the Spengler Cup, in Davos.
But to keep this OT short, what ruins all here are the European style (and specially Swiss) referees, and how they strictly enforce the rules. It is going to look like girl-scout camp party. Nothing to do with NHL. Anyway this winter I have some work to in Russia, I hope to see something interesting there, at least.
Back on topic, if the prices are the above mentioned ones, probably there are better options for getting in Canada for a leisure trip.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: multimark
Posted 2012-12-19 11:22:30 and read 10704 times.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 47):
Someone at AC has a fascination with coming up with new names to add to the list.

Jazz, Tango, Jetz and now Rouge... Interesting.

Livery looks good though.

Corrected: somebody has a fascination with billing AC for coming up with all these lame names.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: mpsrent
Posted 2012-12-19 11:24:41 and read 10714 times.

Quoting Shuttle9juliet (Reply 81):

Thomas Cook was flying in partnership with Air Transat for Canadian Affair. When you booked with Air Transat, sometimes your flight was with their A310 or A330 aircraft while other times it was a TC B757. The partnership ended abruptly two years ago when Thomas Cook got into financial difficulty.

As I fly twice a year to northwest England, I can use MAN or GLA as a destination so I welcome the addition of another airline option. The AC service to LHR is of no benefit to me and many other Canadians whose final destination is elsewhere in the U.K. anymore than it is of a benefit for those wishing to visit Canada and not living in the LHR area.

While EDI doesn't quite work for my purposes, I hope it is successful enough to lead to expansion and further competition.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2012-12-19 11:41:36 and read 10651 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 85):
With many of the new lightweight, thin-back seats you have more effective legroom at 30 inch pitch than with the older, bulkier seats at 32 inches. Comparing seat pitch alone is meaningless. Many major carriers have installed the lightweight seats. For example, the Recaro seats on LX A319/320/321s at 31 inch pitch have as much legroom than the previous seats at 33 or 34 inch pitch.

If that's the case, why don't they just install these 30" seats across their entire fleet? Why only on the LCC fleet if the passenger experience isn't really affected?

I think it is - the pitch clearly has an impact on recline - at 3", its half of what it is on TK (6"). I don't know what AC mainline recline is but I imagine its at least 5", so I remain unconvinced that the 30" pitch is meaningless or that it won't impact the quality. Like I've noted TK sells a far superior for a very similar price.

No matter how you spin it, this product for ~$1000 for YYZ-EDI is laughably bad.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 85):
. And a 7-abreast 767 is much better than the cramped 8-abreast of Air Transat A310s and 330s. In fact, 7-abreast on a 767 is the best widebody configuration of all and more than makes up for an inch or two of seat pitch.

You don't have to sell me on the 767 cabin, but I would take legroom over seatwidth any day of the week. But then again, I am not a particularly price sensitive traveller- I am happy to pay a premium here and there (just flew a very mediocre Y+ on VS on Monday). IF they can't price it right, and ~$1000 seems a bit high, TS will win. That said, I am interested to see how the IFE pans out. Its a step in the right direction I think.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 85):
How many other widebodies can operate at an 87% load factor before anyone has to sit in a middle seat?

Not sure what that has got to do with anything. Its like arguing that a 330 is better than a 777 because all passengers are only one seat away from the aisle. So what? While I like the 767 tremendously, I doubt a price sensitive traveller will give much heed to the fact that he might have a lower chance of sitting in a middle seat. It'll still be about price.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: northstardc4m
Posted 2012-12-19 11:42:06 and read 10656 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 85):
8-abreast of Air Transat A310s and 330s.

You mean 9 abreast on the 310s and 332s, 3-3-3. The 333s have the much more "normal" 2-4-2 8 abreast, same as AC's 333s

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2012-12-19 11:48:37 and read 10662 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 84):
I too am curious if this is going to work, as so far, other than the higher seating density, and the lower pilot wages, nothing else is cheaper. I fear it will end up like Zip.

No alchohol, less IFE weight (going for the streaming online option by the sounds of it), so there are some savings, I suppose. Everything else will presumably rely on lower labor costs.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 84):
Last summer, Transat carried more Canadians across the Atlantic than Air Canada.

Does TS move all its widebodies (23?) onto TATL? How many does AC put? Surely those 777s bring some serious capacity? Or are TS flying fuller planes?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: by738
Posted 2012-12-19 11:51:52 and read 10612 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 95):
Or are TS flying fuller planes

I suspect so, but whether that relates to yields or profits....

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: chrisa330
Posted 2012-12-19 12:01:48 and read 10614 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 93):

No matter how you spin it, this product for ~$1000 for YYZ-EDI is laughably bad.

It's still better than what TS is selling flights to GLA (they don't service EDI).

AC is selling rouge flights for $947 taxes inclusive, where TS is going for $1150 for roughly the same dates in July.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-12-19 12:02:32 and read 10598 times.

Quoting northstardc4m (Reply 94):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 85):
8-abreast of Air Transat A310s and 330s.

You mean 9 abreast on the 310s and 332s, 3-3-3. The 333s have the much more "normal" 2-4-2 8 abreast, same as AC's 333s

True but that's only 4 out of 23 aircraft. I doubt any passengers are aware of the difference when they book.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: YYZYYT
Posted 2012-12-19 12:43:43 and read 10482 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 85):
With many of the new lightweight, thin-back seats you have more effective legroom at 30 inch pitch than with the older, bulkier seats at 32 inches. Comparing seat pitch alone is meaningless. Many major carriers have installed the lightweight seats. For example, the Recaro seats on LX A319/320/321s at 31 inch pitch have as much legroom than the previous seats at 33 or 34 inch pitch. And the additional seats the reduced pitch permits generate a lot of additional revenue. And a 7-abreast 767 is much better than the cramped 8-abreast of Air Transat A310s and 330s. In fact, 7-abreast on a 767 is the best widebody configuration of all and more than makes up for an inch or two of seat pitch. How many other widebodies can operate at an 87% load factor before anyone has to sit in a middle seat?

I take your point, in theory... but are you suggesting that they are purchasing new, and slimmer seats for these 2 aircraft than the seats they use in the rest of the fleet? I'm guessing "no".

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 93):
You don't have to sell me on the 767 cabin, but I would take legroom over seatwidth any day of the week

He beat me to it - I love the 767 config, but am particularly sensitive to cramped seat pitch. last time I flew on TS my knees were quite sore (and that was a 3hr + flight to CUN, not TATL - and not my decision, either). I personally will absolutely avoid any airline that packs the rows in like that.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: chrisa330
Posted 2012-12-19 13:17:58 and read 10410 times.

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 99):
I take your point, in theory... but are you suggesting that they are purchasing new, and slimmer seats for these 2 aircraft than the seats they use in the rest of the fleet? I'm guessing "no".

I'll bet yes.

"Air Canada-originating Boeing 767-300ER and Airbus A319 aircraft with stylish and
modern cabin interiors featuring innovative new seats that increase customer space and
maximize comfort."

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: ScottB
Posted 2012-12-19 13:55:13 and read 10276 times.

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 30):
This has not worked out for any airline yet, and failed twice for AC. What is different about this?

You couldn't tell from the pictures??? The last two were green and purple, but this one is red! That makes it different!

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 80):
I think we have taken a whole 5 minutes to come up with the nickname that this venture will forever be remembered as...

Air Canada Rogue.
Quoting skipness1E (Reply 83):
"Two of our 767s have gone rogue!"

Perhaps they can hire Sarah Palin to be the spokesmodel.

Quoting catII (Reply 34):
Tango was never meant to be "low cost", as in overall lower operating costs. It was a different brand within a brand and was actually quite successful. It's now implemented on mainline fares, Tango basically means lowest fare. It allowed Air Canada to separate it's mainline brand (higher service) without alienating its mainline pax. When it integrated these fares within the mainline fare, they were able to sell the same brand (concept) within mainline.
Quoting catII (Reply 34):
This at least allows them to compete on a lower cost structure and it does effectively differentiate mainline flying from the leisure division. I think you're going to see a fairly significant transformation of mainline with a different business class on the newer aircraft, premium economy etc. They will no longer have to mix the two concepts of leisure and business into one airline. This allows them to tailor to one or the other.

So, let me see if I understand. They started Tango as a separate brand to take low-fare/leisure service out of the mainline, but then re-integrated it into the mainline as a pricing level. Now they are starting yet another brand to take the low-fare/leisure service out of the mainline, and using the Tango brand for low-fare/leisure pricing on a product which is already supposed to be low-fare/leisure.

They are almost always going to mix leisure and business into the airline because the airline needs both to survive. Even products like the Rapidair service will rely somewhat on connections at YYZ & YUL to leisure destinations. The mix varies by route, but the concept still hold. And there's great potential for brand confusion when the ordinary clueless passenger booking a flight to ATH on aircanada.com ends up with a product comparable to the charter carriers rather than "normal" AC.

Quoting catII (Reply 34):
Zip wasn't meant to fly out east, it was started with the same aircraft as WestJet (737-200) to compete with it on the same routes out west. This airline was discount, no frills, low cost. It was started while AC was in CCAA and was eventually absorbed by AC after they excited bankruptcy protection (CCAA).

Except obviously Zip failed to compete successfully.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: Polot
Posted 2012-12-19 13:55:22 and read 10378 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 95):
Does TS move all its widebodies (23?) onto TATL? How many does AC put? Surely those 777s bring some serious capacity? Or are TS flying fuller planes?

Keep in mind TS really packs them in. Their A330s only have 4-7 less seats than AC's 773s, with their A310s having more seats than most of AC's 763s.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2012-12-19 14:05:34 and read 10321 times.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 22):
Stupid idea to start up this company but kudos on the scheme I think it is a lot nicer then the horrible toothpaste livery.

How come no one complains about SQ's attempt "Scoot"

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: brilondon
Posted 2012-12-19 15:52:23 and read 10122 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 101):
Except obviously Zip failed to compete successfully.

Zip could not compete with the aircraft they had. Fuel inefficient 737-217's from CP's fleet.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: longhauler
Posted 2012-12-19 15:59:15 and read 10118 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 101):
So, let me see if I understand. They started Tango as a separate brand to take low-fare/leisure service out of the mainline, but then re-integrated it into the mainline as a pricing level. Now they are starting yet another brand to take the low-fare/leisure service out of the mainline, and using the Tango brand for low-fare/leisure pricing on a product which is already supposed to be low-fare/leisure.

Actually, Tango started the whole a la carte pricing that is now the norm for most North American and European carriers. Don't want to eat? Don't buy it. You don't care where in the aircraft you sit? Then you don't need to buy seat selection. Don't want to check two bags? Then don't pay for it.

When Tango, (the airline) started, no one else in North America was doing this. All legacy carriers, (Air Canada included) were giving it away for free, meals included. What they discovered, is that this is what people want. They don't want to pay for a service they wont use, or don't think it is worth the price difference. So Tango ended, and that fare level and service level was incorporated into Air Canada. And ... as history shows, everyone is doing it now.

Quoting Polot (Reply 102):
Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 95):
Does TS move all its widebodies (23?) onto TATL? How many does AC put? Surely those 777s bring some serious capacity? Or are TS flying fuller planes?

Keep in mind TS really packs them in. Their A330s only have 4-7 less seats than AC's 773s, with their A310s having more seats than most of AC's 763s.

Yes, when I said that Transat carried more Canadians across the Atlantic than Air Canada, that is just purely numbers. Air Canada's load factor last summer was around 90 %, so I can't imagine Transat having fuller airplanes. But also realize that if you compared total revenue ... you would see that AC still comes out ahead. With higher fare levels above the bottom, up and and including full J, it really comes down to a higher yield.

That would appear to be the purpose of Rouge, to address the bottom end of the scale.

Quoting Shuttle9juliet (Reply 86):
Hi Longhauler, I am sure we were speaking about this the other day ...Strange it came up today.Will AC use existing flight deck or are they recruiting out with?

Yeah, I laughed when I saw EDI announced. I am going to guess that as more B767s are added to the Rouge fleet, GLA and MAN may see the maple leaf again, (or half of one, looking at the pictures).

Yes, the pilots are Air Canada pilots, who bid, or are force bid into the Rouge positions. Working conditions, pay and training standards are all different.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: catII
Posted 2012-12-19 16:00:02 and read 10111 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 101):

They already to this anyway with the high density configured 763's, the two that are currently operating at mainline that will be transferred to rouge, as well as the 319's in a high density layout (I think they're former Mexicana birds). The truth is they need more aircraft like these in order to compete with the leaner charter airlines. Higher density seating and no frills.

Now they're taking the same aircraft, moving them into rouge, employing staff with lower wages and merging together as Air Canada Vacations with rouge being the main airline to do the flying; once this is up and running. Keep in mind, AC has something that AT doesn't, a fairly significant domestic and trans-border network that will allow for AC to connect people from all over. This is something Zoom didn't have.

It's much easier to do it this way than having different configured aircraft with no PTV's, no J class, higher density layout, no power-points at every seat, etc. This was causing a lot of confusion with people booking tickets and thinking they were going to be on a normally configured AC aircraft. This allows them to send airplanes to markets that don't currently support full service items that are currently at mainline. These are markets AC has served before, or would like to serve, but on a cost basis can't compete. There is a leisure market out there and in Canada it's a huge market. Mainline AC can't compete with the likes of the Canadian competition with their current structure. But, in order to compete on the other end, on routes that are higher yield, more business pax, etc. You need the other side of the spectrum as well.

Rouge may not reach up to 50 aircraft, but it just may work. They need to market this correctly and make it a clear differentiation between the two brands. When the competition is eating your lunch, you respond accordingly and this is AC's response.

A few people have mentioned in posts about AC's higher cost base. This is beginning to not be the case anymore as a lot of the new contracts with the unions have be re-negotiated, they're outsourcing a lot of maintenance, and a new pilot contract have helped reduce costs substantially by allowing AC pilots to do rouge flying on a different payscale. This, on top of a major pension overhaul, the end of mandatory retirement at age 60 for pilots, different scope terms in the new contract, moving the 175's to Sky Regional and the ability to use Sky Regional and other carriers to do domestic flying.

Recently, there was an article in the Post about Gregg Saretsky saying that WS and AC's costs have become much more inline, especially after the new pilot contract. Where there used to be a 30% difference between the two carriers, it's probably more like 10-15% now. That's a significant change and that margin will only be reducing as time goes on, WS gets bigger, their aircraft get older and AC continues to reduce costs with newer aircraft.

http://business.financialpost.com/20...ow-cost-airline-at-tuesday-launch/

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: longhauler
Posted 2012-12-19 16:06:25 and read 10093 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 104):
Zip could not compete with the aircraft they had. Fuel inefficient 737-217's from CP's fleet.

As was Westjet ... the main competition at the time.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-12-19 17:25:20 and read 9964 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 107):
Quoting brilondon (Reply 104):
Zip could not compete with the aircraft they had. Fuel inefficient 737-217's from CP's fleet.

As was Westjet ... the main competition at the time.

WS didn't take delivery of their first 737NG until 2001, 5 years after they started service. Some of their startup fleet of 737-200s had as many as 8 previous operators.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: brilondon
Posted 2012-12-19 20:25:20 and read 9736 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 107):
As was Westjet ... the main competition at the time.
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 108):
WS didn't take delivery of their first 737NG until 2001, 5 years after they started service. Some of their startup fleet of 737-200s had as many as 8 previous operators.

WS does not have the unionized workforce or the pensions that AC had to deal with at that time.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: longhauler
Posted 2012-12-19 21:04:36 and read 9680 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 109):
WS does not have the unionized workforce or the pensions that AC had to deal with at that time.

No, and Westjet has blue airplanes and Zip was multicoloured. What's your point?

Here's what you said:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 104):
Zip could not compete with the aircraft they had. Fuel inefficient 737-217's from CP's fleet.

And we pointed out that in fact, WS was flying the same airplanes, in fact, some were exCP!

If Zip could not compete, it had nothing to do with the airplanes they were flying.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: RWA380
Posted 2012-12-20 03:23:46 and read 9392 times.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 2):
Quoting etops1 (Reply 1):Why do they think its a good idea to do this ?
It is a trend nowadays.

With the exception of Jetstar what airline, within an airline, concept has ever worked?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: Hawaiian763
Posted 2012-12-20 04:58:16 and read 9332 times.

And the odd's of Air Canada Rouge being a huge success is as likely as the Toronto Blue Jays winning the world series next year...

We've all seen what has happened to Air Canada's LCC's in the past, Tango lasted 3 years, Zip 2 years. If the chain continues, Rouge won't last very long

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: gooner
Posted 2012-12-20 06:07:03 and read 9211 times.

Quoting mpsrent (Reply 92):

This is not true.Thomas Cook originally provided flights for Canadian Affair.The parent company of Air Transat bought out Canadian Affair.Canadian Affair ended their contract with Thomas Cook so they could exclusively use their in-house airline

[Edited 2012-12-20 06:08:07]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: YYZYYT
Posted 2012-12-20 07:34:27 and read 9088 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 101):
So, let me see if I understand. They started Tango as a separate brand to take low-fare/leisure service out of the mainline, but then re-integrated it into the mainline as a pricing level. Now they are starting yet another brand to take the low-fare/leisure service out of the mainline, and using the Tango brand for low-fare/leisure pricing on a product which is already supposed to be low-fare/leisure.

Actually, your confusion is justified., if you do not know AC's fare structure.

The Tango "unbundelled" fare model was introduced for doemstic and transborder mainline operaitons, but international operations have alwyas maintained a more traditional fare structure, with fewer opportunities to pick and choose. e.g., one way flights are discouraged, points are awarded at the full level, meal and drink service is still largely offered...

To be honest, I've wondered why - I assumed it had more to do with international competition and/or bi-national pricing rules.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: yyz717
Posted 2012-12-20 09:38:10 and read 8892 times.

Quoting lostsound (Reply 89):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 85):
How many Canadian carriers have tried and failed? Wardair, Canada 3000, Jetsgo, Greyhound Air, Roots Air, and the list goes on.

Yes, they were all poor business models. In order to survive in Canada you need a good product, a frequent flyer program, competitive frequency, and the lowest possible fare.

No, you just need low costs primarily, and a slow but steady capacity expansion that the market can absorb. All the above carriers deviated from this formula.

AC Rouge will need to keep its costs as low as the current LCC's in order to succeed.

Quoting catII (Reply 106):
Recently, there was an article in the Post about Gregg Saretsky saying that WS and AC's costs have become much more inline, especially after the new pilot contract. Where there used to be a 30% difference between the two carriers, it's probably more like 10-15% now. That's a significant change and that margin will only be reducing as time goes on, WS gets bigger, their aircraft get older and AC continues to reduce costs with newer aircraft.

It could go the other way. As WS gains more revenue from its Encore operation (which will also feed WS mainline) and as WS continues to add efficient 738 aircraft, you might see the cost gap grow again.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 110):
If Zip could not compete, it had nothing to do with the airplanes they were flying.

Agreed. Same aircraft type, same market. Different management. Zip's failure cannot be attributed to either the 732 or the market.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: airontario
Posted 2012-12-20 10:20:49 and read 8802 times.

Quoting Hawaiian763 (Reply 112):
And the odd's of Air Canada Rouge being a huge success is as likely as the Toronto Blue Jays winning the world series next year...

Very possible?

I'd put my money on the Jays winning the World Series.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: brilondon
Posted 2012-12-20 10:52:13 and read 8759 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 110):
Here's what you said:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 104):
Zip could not compete with the aircraft they had. Fuel inefficient 737-217's from CP's fleet.

And we pointed out that in fact, WS was flying the same airplanes, in fact, some were exCP!

If Zip could not compete, it had nothing to do with the airplanes they were flying.


Two

OK so...

Quoting airontario (Reply 116):
I'd put my money on the Jays winning the World Series.

Could happen, then so could the Tigers, the Yankees, Baltimore...Right now the Jays look good on paper but until see how the new parts fit together and then there is the health factor. But we really should continue this discussion on the non-av board

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: mpsrent
Posted 2012-12-20 11:59:59 and read 8689 times.

Quoting gooner (Reply 113):

I don't disagree gooner about how both airlines operated for Canadian Affair or how Transat bought out the tour operator.

I will say that at the time the relationship ended I was booking a flight with Canadian Affair and the service representative told me that financial dealings with Thomas Cook had become problematic. How true that is I will never know.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: by738
Posted 2012-12-20 12:28:56 and read 8633 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 105):
I laughed when I saw EDI announced

Why ?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: Shuttle9juliet
Posted 2012-12-20 13:36:04 and read 8543 times.

Quoting by738 (Reply 119):

Because we had mentioned about AC returning to GLA,EDI on another post, then the next day we got this thread!, so a bit strange when you have been discussing something, then it actually happens...That was all ..

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: robsaw
Posted 2012-12-20 21:31:08 and read 8248 times.

Quoting catII (Reply 34):
Zip was different, the FA's were non-unionized, the pilots were part of mainline (as Rouge will be, albeit on a lower pay scale). Zip wasn't meant to fly out east, it was started with the same aircraft as WestJet (737-200) to compete with it on the same routes out west. This airline was discount, no frills, low cost. It was started while AC was in CCAA and was eventually absorbed by AC after they excited bankruptcy protection (CCAA).

Zip was meant to compete with then almost entirely western Canada based Westjet using 737 aircraft acquired by AC as part of its takeover of Canadian Airlines International (remnants of CP, Pacific Western, Wardair, etc). It was NOT started while AC was in CCAA, it was FOLDED after AC went into CCAA. It was simply dissolved as part of AC's restructuring and the planes disposed of as they were old and divergent from the rest of the AC fleet.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: robsaw
Posted 2012-12-20 21:36:42 and read 8236 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 49):
Glad to. Here's a couple:
1. The Federal Government intervened recently when AC unions were going to strike, preventing such a strike through legislation. This is a gross violation of the collective bargaining process, and deliberate favouritism towards AC mgmt by an interfering government. AC should be left to the marketplace to build or lose its fortune.
2. AC continues to operate lucrative international routes awarded to it when it was a Crown Corporation. These entrenched aurthorities represent an unfair market advantage overtly provided by a protective government, that continue to benefit AC today. AC's international route authority into all markets it operated to when it was privatized should be relinquished and put up to tender for all Cdn carriers. AC can of course bid on these routes fairly, along with WS, TS and anyone else. Then, and only then, will the Cdn industry be truly market driven, and a level playing field.

Nice try but those are opinion rhetoric not factual statements of gov't support of AC. Many carriers, even in the US, have legacy international route authorities left over from the days of highly regulated air travel. AC doesn't get gov't money and is also contrained by higher-costs due to language, headquarters, maintenance, and operational base requirements it must maintain as part of the privatization act.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: robsaw
Posted 2012-12-21 14:00:06 and read 7904 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 110):
If Zip could not compete, it had nothing to do with the airplanes they were flying.

It has something to do with why they couldn't compete but not everything.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2012-12-22 03:58:07 and read 7573 times.

Quoting Hawaiian763 (Reply 112):
We've all seen what has happened to Air Canada's LCC's in the past, Tango lasted 3 years, Zip 2 years.

Have you read any of the other posts in this thread?

Tango was primarily a fare structure, and continues to exist (you could even see it for yourself if you take a look at the AC reservations site).

Zip was an attempt to use orphan aircraft inherited from CP. It was dissolved as part of AC's CCAA restructuring. I don't think anyone outside AC management knows whether it was losing money or not during the time it existed.

[Edited 2012-12-22 04:03:04]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: bergkampsticket
Posted 2012-12-28 17:56:50 and read 6645 times.

I'm hopeful this will be a success. I just booked a great priced return from EDI-LGA with them.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: YVRLTN
Posted 2012-12-28 18:54:52 and read 6582 times.

Does anyone know / guess which terminal and gates they will use in YYZ? My family is looking at EDI-YYZ-YVR and I am wondering if immigration will be done in YYZ, or if they will go through a transit area and clear in YVR?

Basically want a guesstimate as to how much connection time would be needed in YYZ for booking the connecting YVR flight...

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-12-28 19:37:33 and read 6624 times.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 126):
Does anyone know / guess which terminal and gates they will use in YYZ? My family is looking at EDI-YYZ-YVR and I am wondering if immigration will be done in YYZ, or if they will go through a transit area and clear in YVR?

T1 at YYZ as for all other AC flights, and the standard connecting times. On flights to Canada involving domestic connections you always clear customs/immigration at the first point of arrival in Canada. AC shows 1 hr. 15 min. minimum connecting time at YYZ from an international to a domestic flight. It's 1 hour in the other direction since there's no customs/immigration outbound from Canada (except for preclearance to the U.S.).

The AC website has the new EDI flights and fares/connections now available for sale.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: aerecosse
Posted 2012-12-29 16:36:05 and read 6264 times.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 59):
Great for us anyway, my wifes family is from Fife so saves backtracking to AMS, paying crazy BA fares via LHR or the lovely drive to GLA to get on TS which is usually one flight per week so not too flexible. I suppose VS is now an option.

Looking at the TS website it shows flights between YYZ & GLA are year round and daily between 1 May - 31 Oct added to that they also offer flights to YYC & YVR between May and Oct from GLA too. You can even find 3 TS flights departing from GLA to Canada within hours of each other....... slightly more frequently than twice weekly from EDI between July & the start of October..... but wishing it every success!

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: YVRLTN
Posted 2012-12-29 17:03:56 and read 6239 times.

Quoting aerecosse (Reply 128):
Looking at the TS website it shows flights between GLA are year round and daily between 1 May - 31 Oct added to that they also offer flights to YYC & YVR between May and Oct from GLA too. You can even find 3 TS flights departing from GLA to Canada within hours of each other....... slightly more frequently than twice weekly from EDI between July & the start of October..... but wishing it every success!
TS (Canadian Affair) are cheaper than Rouge / AC too, for a direct flight to YVR its a no brainer. The price war has begun I guess, hope both airlines survive it.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 127):
T1 at AC flights, and the standard connecting times. On flights to Canada involving domestic connections you always clear customs/immigration at the first point of arrival in Canada. AC shows 1 hr. 15 min. minimum connecting time at Posted 2012-12-29 18:47:14 and read 6161 times.

Quoting aerecosse (Reply 128):
slightly more frequently than twice weekly from EDI between July & the start of October.

Rouge is starting with two B767s, when they have 20 B767s which is planned, it will be a different story.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: rikkus67
Posted 2012-12-29 21:59:43 and read 6033 times.

I put in an official entry for "Voila!"... *sigh*

The branding of "Rouge" is definitely going to be mocked, as is already happening in this thread. The tail livery pretty much obliverates the modern/current version of the roundel, and it is interesting to see burgundy return to the colour pallet...

How many LCC within an airline have been tried (AC notwithstanding) now, worldwide...and how many have been successful long term?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: yyz717
Posted 2012-12-30 08:34:17 and read 5824 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 124):
Tango was primarily a fare structure

Not initially. It was an LCC with a dedicated fleet, brand and colour scheme. Just like Rouge/Lipstick. Only after the Tango LCC concept failed, did AC keep the Tango name alive in a fare structure.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 124):
Zip was an attempt to use orphan aircraft inherited from CP.

I think it was the other way around. AC wanted to complete against the upstart WS and chose the 732 as the "weapon" so to speak. They could have chosen the DC-9-30, A320.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 130):
Rouge is starting with two B767s, when they have 20 B767s which is planned

It's hard to believe they will reach 20 767's. That would represent a huge capacity increase in the leisure market. Given than TS has trouble making $ with its lower cost structure in this market, it's hard to see how Lipstick can with its higher cost structure AND a huge capacity increase into this market (which will drive yields down even further).

Quoting rikkus67 (Reply 131):
How many LCC within an airline have been tried (AC notwithstanding) now, worldwide...and how many have been successful long term?

Dozens. Zero.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: longhauler
Posted 2012-12-30 08:49:57 and read 5797 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 132):
It's hard to believe they will reach 20 767's. That would represent a huge capacity increase in the leisure market. Given than TS has trouble making $ with its lower cost structure in this market

I agree. The only way I can see it happening is if something like Jetstar occurs where the LCC starts taking over a lot of mainline flying as a preference to "price" over "quality" is displayed.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 132):
Only after the Tango LCC concept failed, did AC keep the Tango name alive in a fare structure.

I wouldn't say Tango failed, as in my opinion Air Canada IS Tango. The passenger preference for a la carte pricing, which at the time was only offered by Tango in North America, became the now norm for North American airlines.

One of the attributes of Tango, that at the time was impossible on any other airline was being able to combine fare levels on one trip. I recently spoke with a businessman who stated that was the best change in aviation in 20 years! He would buy the lowest fare level for his outbound trip, as he was certain what would not change, but buy a higher level allowing changes for the return.

After September 11, when Legacy carriers were faced with the requirement to change the way they do business, I recall Don Carty of AA saying that the Tango concept was the future of Economy travel in North America. Turns out he was right.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: yyz717
Posted 2012-12-30 09:14:48 and read 5749 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 133):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 132):
Only after the Tango LCC concept failed, did AC keep the Tango name alive in a fare structure.

I wouldn't say Tango failed, as in my opinion Air Canada IS Tango.


But Tango was just a common name for 2 completely different concepts.

The first Tango was a dedicated LCC within an airline, which definitely failed (otherwise, it would still be around).

The second Tango was/is a low-end fare structure, with arguable origins in the first Tango. This lives on to this day.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: connies4ever
Posted 2012-12-30 10:25:40 and read 5664 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 133):
I wouldn't say Tango failed, as in my opinion Air Canada IS Tango. The passenger preference for a la carte pricing, which at the time was only offered by Tango in North America, became the now norm for North American airlines.

One of the attributes of Tango, that at the time was impossible on any other airline was being able to combine fare levels on one trip. I recently spoke with a businessman who stated that was the best change in aviation in 20 years! He would buy the lowest fare level for his outbound trip, as he was certain what would not change, but buy a higher level allowing changes for the return.

After September 11, when Legacy carriers were faced with the requirement to change the way they do business, I recall Don Carty of AA saying that the Tango concept was the future of Economy travel in North America. Turns out he was right.

   All valid points, Longhauler, underscoring that those actually IN the business know far more than some others. As well, as you have previously pointed out, Zip was not necessarily a failure, but had to go as one of the CCAA outcomes.

I myself made use of the Tango brand and found it completely OK expecting an LCC-type in flight service. I was not disappointed. Some odd routings, mind you, one was YOW-YQG-YWG. But I got there. As for Zip, had it been allowed to live and migrated to an all-Y 319 or 320 platform, who knows.

Hopefully Rouge will be a success. But the barriers to entry are fairly substantial. AC should not put unlimited resources into it.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: longhauler
Posted 2012-12-30 10:31:28 and read 5653 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 134):
But Tango was just a common name for 2 completely different concepts.

No, the concepts were the same ... the a la carte pricing, made only possible with a powerful website. That concept was completely different from Air Canada mainline, (and every other airline in North America). When it was decided to make all of Air Canada's North American Economy product a la carte, then the 'airline within an airline' became superfluous.

Then that Tango brand name was offered on mainline Air Canada aircraft, carrying over the came concept. The only difference between Tango and Air Canada mainline is that the higher fare levels, up to and including Executive Class were now offered.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: yyz717
Posted 2012-12-30 10:43:33 and read 5639 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 136):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 134):
But Tango was just a common name for 2 completely different concepts.

No, the concepts were the same ... the a la carte pricing, made only possible with a powerful website.

The concepts were not the same. They were completely different. Tango #1 was a small, dedicated fleet of A320s and 732's with its own brand, schedules and colour scheme in all Y seating with low fares.

Tango #2 (the current tango) is simply a fare type on all of AC mainline.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: longhauler
Posted 2012-12-30 10:51:23 and read 5630 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 137):
The concepts were not the same. They were completely different. Tango #1 was a small, dedicated fleet of A320s and 732's with its own brand, schedules and colour scheme in all Y seating with low fares.

I think you are missing my point. With the invention of the Tango concept, came a passenger preference for that type of pricing and flying. The decision had to be made .... either expand the Tango fleet (as it WAS popular), or make every flight a Tango flight and incorporate it into Air Canada.

That is why I feel Tango was a success, as it developed a new product which became the base for every airline in North America today.

It is a lot like when CP had F/J only aircraft crossing the country. It was a success. Air Canada had to respond by either doing the same, with a dedicated fleet of F/J aircraft to meet the demand ... or make a domestic J product to compete. That was the start of the domestic Executive Class product, incorporated into the Air Canada fleet.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-12-30 16:31:10 and read 5454 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 138):
It is a lot like when CP had F/J only aircraft crossing the country. It was a success.

Assume you're referring to the initial Attaché product using 737s with only F and J seating. It wasn't a success to the best of my memory. It was unprofitable and was quickly dropped. Many flights operated with very low load factors. There just wan't enough demand for that type of product even on the prime business routes.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: stuYYZ
Posted 2012-12-30 17:35:12 and read 5389 times.

MASTER PLAN
I thought this was all part of the master plan. Start a discount airline with no pension or legacy costs, shift over some assets, declare bankruptcy, and then Crossair, oops i mean Rouge, can buy some of those assets including foreign based staff, rename itself Air Canada International, and we're off an running minus the legacy issues, with nice new livery to boot.....Air Canada unions have been predicting this for several years.....

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: BOACCunard
Posted 2012-12-30 17:53:07 and read 5372 times.

Criticism of Rouge branding.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: longhauler
Posted 2012-12-30 18:27:47 and read 5322 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 139):
Assume you're referring to the initial Attaché product using 737s with only F and J seating. It wasn't a success to the best of my memory.

I think that is what it was called. Using -200s and -300s? I had heard it was successful and was dropped when AC matched it with Executive Class, then CP responded with the J/Y configuration.

Then there was "The Company Jet", same thing, a premium product of CPs, YYZ-YUL.

Quoting stuYYZ (Reply 140):
Start a discount airline with no pension or legacy costs

The only thing cheaper with respect to costs are the pilot hourly wage. Every other cost is the same as mainline, including pensions! Ironically enough, looking at the employee groups within Air Canada, only the pilot costs were on par with most competitors. The other employee groups, which are much higher than industry standard cost, remain unchanged!

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-12-30 18:42:26 and read 5301 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 142):
I think that is what it was called. Using -200s and -300s? I had heard it was successful and was dropped when AC matched it with Executive Class, then CP responded with the J/Y configuration.

Then there was "The Company Jet", same thing, a premium product of CPs, YUL.

That was even less successful (and shorter-lived) than Attaché. Regardless of the product it was hard to compete with AC's much higher frequency on a route like Toronto-Montreal.

[Edited 2012-12-30 18:52:04]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: yyz717
Posted 2012-12-30 19:37:40 and read 5261 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 139):
Assume you're referring to the initial Attach
[quote=longhauler,reply=142]Reply 142, posted Sun Dec 30 2012 21:27:47 your local time (30 minutes 5 secs ago) and read 48 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 139):
Assume you're referring to the initial Attaché product using 737s with only F and J seating. It wasn't a success to the best of my memory.

I think that is what it was called. Using -200s and -300s?
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 143):
That was even less successful (and shorter-lived) than Attaché.

Of CP's initial 3 733's delivered in early 1985, 2 were in the Attache colour scheme, and the 3rd in the usual orange CP livery which well suited the 733, and being the only one in this scheme, was notoriously hard to spot.   The Attache colour scheme was terrible

Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2013-01-01 13:27:17 and read 4929 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 144):
Of CP's initial 3 733's delivered in early 1985, 2 were in the Attache colour scheme, and the 3rd in the usual orange CP livery which well suited the 733, and being the only one in this scheme, was notoriously hard to spot.   The Attache colour scheme was terrible

I wouldn't say terrible, but of course the CP Air livery was sharper. That's why I also like the new Rouge livery.


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Topic: RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge
Username: yyz717
Posted 2013-01-01 14:21:58 and read 4828 times.

Thanks SpaceshipDC10. The CP colours look great on that 733. Attache not so much.


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