Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5645614/

Topic: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: bambicruz
Posted 2012-12-28 07:21:04 and read 12338 times.

Forgive me if this has been discussed before but the search feature didn't come up with much...

I'm planning a trip to Alaska in 2013 and was surprised to notice there was no non-stop flights from either JFK or EWR to Anchorage. You either have to transfer at ORD or SEA. If Chicago can sustain direct flights to Anchorage, then I would assume NYC surely can as well.

Can someone shed some light as to why Anchorage does not have a direct link to NYC?

Thanks

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: STT757
Posted 2012-12-28 07:24:18 and read 12331 times.

CO used to fly EWR-ANC nonstop seasonally, I suspect this route will return at somepoint.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: joost
Posted 2012-12-28 07:27:09 and read 12313 times.

ANC-ORD is pushing the limits of the 737NG, but still doable with reasonable payload. Hence AS is able to fly the route.

ANC-JFK / EWR is too far for a 737. So you need at least a 757, and you might not be able to fill it during the winter.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: TK787
Posted 2012-12-28 07:36:41 and read 12234 times.

Quoting joost (Reply 2):
ANC-JFK / EWR is too far for a 737

Is it not even possible with 739ERs with additional tanks?

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: premobrimo
Posted 2012-12-28 07:38:09 and read 12216 times.

Don't forget MSP-ANC!

4x Daily 757 service in the summer.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: STT757
Posted 2012-12-28 07:49:29 and read 12147 times.

CO's EWR-ANC flight was with a 738 IIRC.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: iFlyLOTs
Posted 2012-12-28 07:50:28 and read 12140 times.

Quoting TK787 (Reply 3):
Is it not even possible with 739ERs with additional tanks?

The range of the 739ER with the additional tanks is ~3250NM and the distance from Anchorage to NYC is 3370MN

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2012-12-28 08:23:21 and read 11964 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 5):

Wow, did they have to take a payload restriction?

[Edited 2012-12-28 08:47:14]

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2012-12-28 08:34:08 and read 11877 times.

Great circle NYC-ANC is 2931 NM. Quite doable in a 737/320. ORD-ANC is 2473 NM.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: migair54
Posted 2012-12-28 08:59:45 and read 11723 times.

Quoting joost (Reply 2):
ANC-JFK / EWR is too far for a 737. So you need at least a 757, and you might not be able to fill it during the winter.

Or a B737-700.

Actually it´s quite strange that nobody flies the route, not even few times a week, when a city-hub like MSP can sustain 4xday B757 in summer.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2012-12-28 09:00:36 and read 11713 times.

LAX cannot even maintain year round service to ANC. ORD is a gateway to the eastern US and AS code shares with AA. However for the ,ost part during the winter all flights to Alaska go via SEA. Summer has an interesting mix of seasonal routes for tourists and cruise traffic.8

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: steex
Posted 2012-12-28 09:04:34 and read 11680 times.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 8):
Great circle NYC-ANC is 2931 NM. Quite doable in a 737/320. ORD-ANC is 2473 NM.

It could be done, but "quite doable" is an overstatement considering the longest 737 route in the world is 2,941nm on Copa's PTY-MVD. Comparatively, a westbound NYC-ANC would also face much stiffer headwinds than Copa's largely north-south routes into deep South America, which could make things difficult.

I suspect the reason for the lack of non-stops is that there wouldn't be a substantial fare premium for the non-stop and the demand to/from ANC is scattered enough throughout the eastern portion of the USA that it's just as easy to connect folks through a Western or Midwestern hub rather than fly them all the way to NYC and then connect.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2012-12-28 09:35:19 and read 11492 times.

Does UA run IAH-ANC, and on what? And what does AA operate to DFW? I didn't realize how much of a stretch this would be on a 737. I could see a 752 4x weekly working, and the MAX could fit quite well on the route if it meets expectations.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: jetbluefan1
Posted 2012-12-28 09:44:42 and read 11418 times.

I can see B6 giving JFK-ANC a try when its A321's start coming online. B6's ANC-LGB/SEA flights, which offer onward connections to JFK, could help B6 determine the true demand for a non-stop flight.

That said, an A321 is far too much capacity for the winter months. I think this route would be seasonal.

JetBluefan1

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2012-12-28 09:48:24 and read 11386 times.

I think that JFK-ANC is too far for the 321. I could see it as a 320NEO route in the future.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: STT757
Posted 2012-12-28 10:01:13 and read 11318 times.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 12):
Does UA run IAH-ANC, and on what?

Yup, big oil route. It will be operated by a sUA 757 this Spring.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: steex
Posted 2012-12-28 10:09:34 and read 11277 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 15):
Yup, big oil route. It will be operated by a sUA 757 this Spring.

It is a seasonal route, though. UA/CO has long operated a one-stop IAH-SEA-ANC route and supplemented it with summer seasonal non-stop service. CO usually switched the flight numbers in the summer such that EWR-SEA-ANC was the through flight, not sure if UA is doing this still. I know UA is adding a second SEA-ANC rotation, which I assume is a continuation from EWR.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: sancho99504
Posted 2012-12-28 10:12:23 and read 11259 times.

The 73G and A319 can do NYC-ANC with minimal restrictions. Westbound would block in around 7:52, which could push fuel reserves, while The question is, can they do it for a profit?

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2012-12-28 10:33:55 and read 11181 times.

UA does DEN-ANC on a 738 just fine.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2012-12-28 10:37:31 and read 11154 times.

ANC-DEN is 2090 NM, about 900NM shorter than NYC and 400NM shorter than ORD.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: STT757
Posted 2012-12-28 10:38:18 and read 11130 times.

Quoting steex (Reply 16):
UA/CO has long operated a one-stop IAH-SEA-ANC route and supplemented it with summer seasonal non-stop service. CO usually switched the flight numbers in the summer such that EWR-SEA-ANC was the through flight, not sure if UA is doing this still.

CO used to have both SEA-ANC and PDX-ANC, I believe the PDX-ANC flight originated in IAH and the SEA-ANC flight originated in EWR.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2012-12-28 10:45:21 and read 11104 times.

If you were UA, you could choose between your 737 operating a dangerously long non profitable route about once a day, or have it operate 3 or more daily profitable east coast runs. The 737/319 could do it, but it just doesn't make sense for the airline. That said, I wouldn't be surprised to see it return as a 757, MAX, or NEO route at some point.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: LV
Posted 2012-12-28 10:58:42 and read 11002 times.

It really comes down to yield and allocation of resources. Yes, the market is there but is there enough yield on there to tie up a plane for several hours when that same plane could be doing multiple flights on shorter segments and earning more revenue/ yield?

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: tdscanuck
Posted 2012-12-28 14:37:18 and read 10674 times.

Quoting bambicruz (Thread starter):
If Chicago can sustain direct flights to Anchorage, then I would assume NYC surely can as well.

It's not Chicago sustaining the direct flight, it's connecting traffic going through Chicago. Chicago is collecting traffic from the entire Eastern US. It makes no sense to fly east to NYC only to connect and fly west again to ANC, and NYC by itself doesn't have enough traffic.

Quoting TK787 (Reply 3):
Is it not even possible with 739ERs with additional tanks?

Extra tanks are almost guaranteed to kill the economics of a route like that, even if they allowed you to get there. You pay a very heavy payload penalty (in both weight and space terms) for that extra few hundred miles. NYC-ANC would be a great revenue cargo route but you'd have nowhere to put the cargo.

Tom.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-12-28 15:54:58 and read 9767 times.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 19):
ANC-DEN is 2090 NM, about 900NM shorter than NYC and 400NM shorter than ORD.

But JFK/EWR are at sea level and ORD is only 668 ft. ASL. DEN's 5,431 ft. elevation must offset some of the difference in mileage.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2012-12-28 16:08:16 and read 10210 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):
DEN's 5,431 ft. elevation

A bit. I will say one thing: 16,000 ft runway/12,000 ft runways. The design range on a 738 is long enough that DEN doesn't really affect the DEN-ANC flight.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: atct
Posted 2012-12-28 19:04:02 and read 8907 times.

As of last summer we had the following from UA/CO

IAH-ANC B757-300
EWR-SEA-ANC B739 (earlier flight)
IAH-SEA-ANC B739 (Later flight)
ORD-ANC B738
DEN-ANC B738
SFO-ANC B738

At the moment we have 2 daily SEA's and 1 daily to DEN, usually all with 738/9's until summer.

atct

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: RWA380
Posted 2012-12-28 19:04:10 and read 9022 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 20):

CO used to have both SEA-ANC and PDX-ANC, I believe the PDX-ANC flight originated in IAH and the SEA-ANC flight originated in EWR

When did CO do PDX-ANC, back in the 70's and 80's with their interchange flights with AS or WA? I know for sure TW operated PDX-ANC as a STL-PDX-ANC routing, year round with M80's, and summer got a 757 a year or two.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: Prost
Posted 2012-12-28 19:53:21 and read 8665 times.

Also, keep in mind that the Anchorage MSA population is only 380,000 so you're not talking a large population base that isn't being served.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: FlyDeltaJets
Posted 2012-12-28 20:17:21 and read 8459 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 5):
CO's EWR-ANC flight was with a 738 IIRC.

That flight was never a true direct. It always stopped in IAH and I believe it was a 739 that operated this route.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: bomber996
Posted 2012-12-28 20:20:23 and read 8448 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):
But JFK/EWR are at sea level and ORD is only 668 ft. ASL. DEN's 5,431 ft. elevation must offset some of the difference in mileage.

By less than 1NM. DEN is just much closer than NYC

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=anc-den%0D%0Aanc-jfk&MS=wls&DU=mi

Peace   

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2012-12-28 20:33:46 and read 8293 times.

DEN is nicely positioned. But to all...what are the chances of NYC-ANC opening as a MAX/NEO route in the future? B6, UA, DL, even AA.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: TWA772LR
Posted 2012-12-28 20:40:36 and read 8238 times.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 31):
NYC-ANC opening as a MAX/NEO route

I can see AA do a 3x weekly A319 NEO flight.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2012-12-28 20:48:16 and read 8167 times.

I don't know who will serve it, but I expect it in a few years.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: keithh233
Posted 2012-12-28 21:38:56 and read 7888 times.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 27):
When did CO do PDX-ANC, back in the 70's and 80's with their interchange flights with AS or WA? I know for sure TW operated PDX-ANC as a STL-PDX-ANC routing, year round with M80's, and summer got a 757 a year or two.

Summer of 2010 actually. I am not sure if they ran it years before or not.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: Yukon880
Posted 2012-12-28 21:42:07 and read 7867 times.

"Why No Direct NYC-ANC... ?"

m- o- n- e- y...

simple!

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: iowaman
Posted 2012-12-28 21:48:35 and read 7845 times.

Maybe DL could run a 762 JFK-ANC during the summer? Does a 752 have range for summer EWR-ANC on UA? Just thinking out loud here.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: bomber996
Posted 2012-12-28 22:09:33 and read 7765 times.

Quoting iowaman (Reply 36):

Maybe DL could run a 762 JFK-ANC during the summer?

No 762 from DL anymore.

Peace   

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2012-12-28 22:20:49 and read 7728 times.

The 762 has bad economics. Horrid. Also, the 762 is way too premium heavy and way too much capacity. DL would lose a ton of money.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: RWA380
Posted 2012-12-29 01:14:02 and read 7042 times.

Quoting keithh233 (Reply 34):
Summer of 2010 actually. I am not sure if they ran it years before or not.

I did not know this, I know CO has been big here at PDX on and off since the 1960's but after 2000, it's never been much.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: PassedV1
Posted 2012-12-29 03:20:14 and read 6601 times.

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 6):
The range of the 739ER with the additional tanks is ~3250NM and the distance from Anchorage to NYC is 3370MN

I am not sure that any US carriers have ordered the 900ER's with extra tanks. Alaska for sure has not. I don't believe that United has the extra tanks either.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: varigb707
Posted 2012-12-29 04:23:05 and read 6294 times.

Quoting premobrimo (Reply 4):

Don't forget MSP-ANC!

4x Daily 757 service in the summer.

I flew NW ANC-MSP ON Sept 08 2001, then MSP-DFW.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: Yukon880
Posted 2012-12-29 05:17:58 and read 6033 times.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 21):
If you were UA, you could choose between your 737 operating a dangerously long non profitable route about once a day, or have it operate 3 or more daily profitable east coast runs
Quoting LV (Reply 22):
It really comes down to yield and allocation of resources. Yes, the market is there but is there enough yield on there to tie up a plane for several hours when that same plane could be doing multiple flights on shorter segments and earning more revenue/ yield?

Kudos to UA/LV...

The way I see it, this is the bottom line.

Airframe capability certainly has bearing on the equation, but it does not change the economic reality. If/when a carrier can allocate a frame to a 15hr (give or take) rotation NYC-ANC-NYC, and make more money than flying it somewhere else for the same amount of time, then that's when we'll enjoy the route again.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: airbazar
Posted 2012-12-29 05:41:09 and read 5887 times.

NYC is too far East to be a good connection point for ANC, and as stated can't be done with a 737/A320. The main carriers have hubs that are closer to ANC and can provide more connecting possibilities. For example, ORD/MSP can connect the entire eastern 1/3 of the country (and the most populous area), without any backtracking or significant deviation from the GC route. One could even argue that ORD/MSP can connect the entire eastern half of the country with minimal backtracking for some. The Summer months may be the only time when there is enought demand to operate anything larger than a 737/A320 from NYC.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: brilondon
Posted 2012-12-29 06:49:17 and read 5486 times.

Quoting jetbluefan1 (Reply 13):

I can see B6 giving JFK-ANC a try when its A321's start coming online. B6's ANC-LGB/SEA flights, which offer onward connections to JFK, could help B6 determine the true demand for a non-stop flight
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 23):

Quoting bambicruz (Thread starter):
If Chicago can sustain direct flights to Anchorage, then I would assume NYC surely can as well.

It's not Chicago sustaining the direct flight, it's connecting traffic going through Chicago. Chicago is collecting traffic from the entire Eastern US. It makes no sense to fly east to NYC only to connect and fly west again to ANC, and NYC by itself doesn't have enough traffic.

I had the same question as to whether there was enough traffic to justify the equipment for the route. You are not going to have enough demand for the route during the winter months. I mean seriously, who would want to fly up to the arctic in the middle of winter that did not have to go?

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: EWRandMDW
Posted 2012-12-29 07:18:46 and read 5227 times.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 23):
It's not Chicago sustaining the direct flight, it's connecting traffic going through Chicago. Chicago is collecting traffic from the entire Eastern US. It makes no sense to fly east to NYC only to connect and fly west again to ANC, and NYC by itself doesn't have enough traffic.

I recall recent US summer PHL-ANC nonstops on a 757. PHL is only a very short distance farther west and south than EWR. If that service can succeed at PHL, I would imagine it could succeed at EWR (or JFK).

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: Yukon880
Posted 2012-12-29 07:54:30 and read 5056 times.

Quoting EWRandMDW (Reply 45):
I recall recent US summer PHL-ANC nonstops on a 757. PHL is only a very short distance farther west and south than EWR. If that service can succeed at PHL, I would imagine it could succeed at EWR (or JFK).

This seasonal service lasted two summers and was not part of the mix for 2012.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: reifel
Posted 2012-12-29 08:45:05 and read 4944 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 15):
Yup, big oil route. It will be operated by a sUA 757 this Spring.

In the GDS this summer it shows this flight with a stop in SEA though...

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2012-12-29 08:51:29 and read 4961 times.

To all who want a 762 or 757 on the route: most airlines aren't starting new routes with these planes. A 762 is way too much plane and very premium heavy compared to a 752 or 753. These planes are going to be retired fairly soon. For now, if they are going to operate on that long of a stage length, it's going to be transcontinental and transatlantic. That's where the money is.
PHL didn't work. NYC has better O&D, but actually slightly worse connections to the US. Chicago is great for connections. So is DEN and the entire west coast. Any airline would rather put their NYC slots and equipment of that sort to, say, DUB, MAN, CDG, AMS and so on.
It is quite possible to fly this route. Its also, with current aircraft, a financial bloodbath and quite pointless route.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: Citationjet
Posted 2012-12-29 08:52:54 and read 4930 times.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 23):
Quoting bambicruz (Thread starter):If Chicago can sustain direct flights to Anchorage, then I would assume NYC surely can as well.
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 23):
It's not Chicago sustaining the direct flight, it's connecting traffic going through Chicago. Chicago is collecting traffic from the entire Eastern US. It makes no sense to fly east to NYC only to connect and fly west again to ANC, and NYC by itself doesn't have enough traffic.

  

I agree, that is the reason why ORD can support the ANC service, while NYC cannot.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2012-12-29 08:59:50 and read 4905 times.

ORD has better connections, to th US and still serves Europe. It is also slightly shorter, and easier to operate with a 737. Lower fuel costs and probably a more full plane. This makes ORD much more attractive than NYC

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: tdscanuck
Posted 2012-12-29 10:16:07 and read 4801 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 44):
You are not going to have enough demand for the route during the winter months. I mean seriously, who would want to fly up to the arctic in the middle of winter that did not have to go?

Summer is tourism, but winter is oil. Oil falls firmly into the "have to go" catagory but there's a lot of them.

Tom.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: ushermittwoch
Posted 2012-12-29 10:19:29 and read 4770 times.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 51):

Summer is tourism, but winter is oil. Oil falls firmly into the "have to go" catagory but there's a lot of them.

Tom.

I can attest to that. I have been bumped out of ANC on an NW 757-300 flight in early December before.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: airbazar
Posted 2012-12-29 10:39:05 and read 4710 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 44):
You are not going to have enough demand for the route during the winter months. I mean seriously, who would want to fly up to the arctic in the middle of winter that did not have to go?

First, Anchorage is far from being in the arctic. It's actually quite mild, relatively speaking because it's a coastal city. Secondly there is traffic in the Winter, in both directions, albeit not nearly as much as in the Summer. It's a catchment area of nearly 400,000 people. The oil and gas industry generates a fair bit of traffic. There are also a lot of people who work in AK but do not actually live there. They commute in and out every x amount of days.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2012-12-29 11:36:29 and read 4575 times.

ANC is indeed a winter route also. But the NYC airlines would rather serve a city such as NCE or AMS in the winter with that kind of equipment. Any chance we see NYC-ANC as a NEO/MAX route? I think we could see it. Which airline? AA! DL, UA, and B6 all might serve it.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2012-12-29 11:48:45 and read 4521 times.

There is certainly demand in the summer to fill a plane but its mostly toursists and people going on longer trips not willing to pay a heavy premium for a non-stop. Most of those people do not mind a stop over in MSP, SLC, DEN, or SEA if the price is lower its leisure travelers on longer trips. It is also extremely seasonal high deman in the summer months and very little in the dead of winter. People in both cities are seeking the warmer beach type vacations in the dead of winter

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: RobertS975
Posted 2012-12-29 11:59:10 and read 4491 times.

Rather than continuing to argue about the demand for NYC-ANC direct service, somebody here must know how to look up the stats on daily average travel between the two markets. And even if it is a planeload from the greater NYC area, that doesn't mean that a person living out on Long Island and a person in upstate NJ want tp take the same flight, even if nonstop.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2012-12-29 12:02:48 and read 4482 times.

I think that NYC-ANC has plenty of demand. But most pax would be willing to connect somewhere. Add in the aircraft limits and the fact that many summer pax are low yielding, airlines won't fly it today. However, I would like to know the PDEW and how it fluctuates throughout the year.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: PassedV1
Posted 2012-12-29 23:53:43 and read 4083 times.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 54):
Any chance we see NYC-ANC as a NEO/MAX route? I think we could see it. Which airline? AA! DL, UA, and B6 all might serve it.

I think the only airline that I think would have a even a remote chance of starting this service is AS and an even smaller chance would be B6. As stated earlier, DL, UA, US, etc. connect passengers to get them to ANC and they all have much better connecting points than NYC. DL in MSP, UA in DEN and ORD, US in PHL. AS could make this route work with their domination of originating traffic out of ANC, but right now the limiting factor is equipment as it is too long of a route to do on a regular schedule on a 737. The MAX might make this a possiblity.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: mah4546
Posted 2012-12-30 00:12:04 and read 4073 times.

Quoting Prost (Reply 28):

Also, keep in mind that the Anchorage MSA population is only 380,000 so you're not talking a large population base that isn't being served.


Small metro, but Anchorage is an wealthy metro and it's residents have a very high propensity of travel compared to others.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: Prost
Posted 2012-12-30 02:18:25 and read 3971 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 59):
Small metro, but Anchorage is an wealthy metro and it's residents have a very high propensity of travel compared to others.

I agree, but I don't think that its significant enough to render year round NYC-ANC viable.

I know that when the Alaska Permanent Fund checks come out, several airlines offer deals such as sogn over your check, we'll provide you with X amount of RT tickets, or at least they have in the past.

http://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/jumping-pfd-airfare-deals

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: mah4546
Posted 2012-12-30 02:43:19 and read 3947 times.

Quoting Prost (Reply 60):
I agree, but I don't think that its significant enough to render year round NYC-ANC viable.

No, but it's why ANC can maintain service to places like Chicago and Hawai'i year-round, and it's probably why Icelandair is coming.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: Yukon880
Posted 2012-12-30 03:10:27 and read 3905 times.

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 58):
I think the only airline that I think would have a even a remote chance of starting this service is AS...but right now the limiting factor is equipment as it is too long of a route to do on a regular schedule on a 737. The MAX might make this a possiblity.

Which begs the following...

How likely would it be for AS to task a brand new MAX to the route, for all the reasons already discussed?

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: COEWRNJ
Posted 2012-12-30 06:17:34 and read 3825 times.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 29):
That flight was never a true direct.

It was a true non-stop. I beleive it was a 757-200

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: RobertS975
Posted 2012-12-30 09:19:51 and read 3683 times.

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 58):
I think the only airline that I think would have a even a remote chance of starting this service is AS and an even smaller chance would be B6. As stated earlier, DL, UA, US, etc. connect passengers to get them to ANC and they all have much better connecting points than NYC. DL in MSP, UA in DEN and ORD, US in PHL. AS could make this route work with their domination of originating traffic out of ANC, but right now the limiting factor is equipment as it is too long of a route to do on a regular schedule on a 737. The MAX might make this a possiblity.

There are many DL stations, for example, that do not have direct service to MSP or SLC that do have service to JFK. Pax originating in those stations may use a DL JFK flight. Also, keep in mind that AS passengers could earn their EQMs on DL and that DL pax could earn their miles on connecting AS serevice through ANC.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2012-12-30 13:46:44 and read 3491 times.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 29):
That flight was never a true direct. It always stopped in IAH and I believe it was a 739 that operated this route.

Why would NYC/ANC flight stop in IAH?

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: Yukon880
Posted 2012-12-30 16:24:05 and read 3366 times.

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 64):
There are many DL stations, for example, that do not have direct service to MSP or SLC that do have service to JFK. Pax originating in those stations may use a DL JFK flight. Also, keep in mind that AS passengers could earn their EQMs on DL and that DL pax could earn their miles on connecting AS serevice through ANC.

With respect Robert, I'm not grasping the point you are driving at here.
And what particular cities with DL JFK service, but no MSP/SLC did you have in mind?

Thanks in advance,

Yukon

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2012-12-30 17:22:25 and read 3275 times.

Many of us, me included, think there is a fair amount of demand. That won't make the route profitable.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: atct
Posted 2012-12-30 22:54:07 and read 3120 times.

If it was profitable, UA (from EWR), DL (from JFK) or US (PHL) would be flying it. Pretty plain and simple.

In regards to winter traffic its feast or famine. Ive seen empty flights, ive seen way oversold. The majority of the traffic I would say are locals and oil. Alot of the slope and mine workers work schedules like 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off or 6 on 6 off etc. Alot of these people live in the lower 48 and throughout the world. This isnt including the people coming from the HQ's in say Houston, Dallas, Amsterdam, etc. etc.

I would like to see ANC-JFK but I would rather see some of our seasonal's go year round first.

atct

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: ANCsupercub
Posted 2012-12-30 23:17:03 and read 3105 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 61):
No, but it's why ANC can maintain service to places like Chicago and Hawai'i year-round, and it's probably why Icelandair is coming.

And MSP. Additionally, while the Anchorage metro is only 380,000, ANC draws from the entire state. IMO Alaskans travel much more than those from the lower 48.

Quoting atct (Reply 68):

If it was profitable, UA (from EWR), DL (from JFK) or US (PHL) would be flying it. Pretty plain and simple.

While this is true, one might be able to make the argument that there isn't a correctly sized aircraft with suitable range. It will be interesting to see if anyone attempts this route with the MAX or NEO.

That being said I don't think we will ever see this as a year round service. Especially considering ORD isn't year round anymore (AS doesn't fly it from Jan 7 - Mar 3). The only chance is with seasonal service.

[Edited 2012-12-30 23:25:27]

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: spchamp1
Posted 2012-12-31 07:45:14 and read 2913 times.

Quoting jetbluefan1 (Reply 13):
I can see B6 giving JFK-ANC a try when its A321's start coming online. B6's ANC-LGB/SEA flights, which offer onward connections to JFK, could help B6 determine the true demand for a non-stop flight.

That said, an A321 is far too much capacity for the winter months. I think this route would be seasonal.

I dont see that at all. There is no reason to do that when you can simply run customers through LGB or SEA. I dont think B6 would want to tie up an a/c for the enitre day on 1 rountrip per day. Besides, BOS - OAK/SFO/LGB is bad enough in the winter as it is, I personally would not want to be on a narrowbody for that long with DirecTV or not.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 14):
I think that JFK-ANC is too far for the 321. I could see it as a 320NEO route in the future.

If they were to do JFK-ANC, I believe it would be on an A320NEO but, I do not see this even being more than a "well, its within the limits of the aircraft" possibility.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: TWA772LR
Posted 2013-01-01 00:43:57 and read 2529 times.

Quoting spchamp1 (Reply 70):
If they were to do JFK-ANC, I believe it would be on an A320NEO but, I do not see this even being more than a "well, its within the limits of the aircraft" possibility.

If they order the 73GMAX or A319NEO, I will bet my left arm that they start EWR-ANC, seasonal, x-amount weekly, etc...

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: burnsie28
Posted 2013-01-01 08:28:13 and read 2399 times.

Quoting premobrimo (Reply 4):
Don't forget MSP-ANC!

4x Daily 757 service in the summer.

Add in that typically during the summer ANC see's 1x DTW as well.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 8):

Great circle NYC-ANC is 2931 NM. Quite doable in a 737/320. ORD-ANC is 2473 NM.

The A320 can't even come close to making it. NW tried running the A320 MSP-ANC years ago and it would always need a tech stop in Canada. It ended up being a short lived route for the A320. MSP-ANC is 2189 NM

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: Yukon880
Posted 2013-01-01 08:44:54 and read 2360 times.

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 72):
Add in that typically during the summer ANC see's 1x DTW as well.

While not specifically pertinent to the OP topic, DL did not operate the seasonal ANC/DTW for 2012.
Additionally, and I think this speaks volumes of the yield (or lack thereof), DL did not operate the SLC/ANC route for seven full weeks just prior to the start of the Christmas holiday "rush," leaving one daily MSP/ANC as the only skd DL service.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: Flighty
Posted 2013-01-01 08:50:16 and read 2348 times.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 9):
Actually it´s quite strange that nobody flies the route, not even few times a week, when a city-hub like MSP can sustain 4xday B757 in summer.

MSP has always been the lead for ANC other than SEA with its local & southbound connections. MSP generally is the shortest distance hub with the most connections for ANC. DTW could also serve that way. EWR itself is a lousy hub and would be inferior, other than offering ANC-NYC nonstop, which isn't such a big deal when all is said and done. ANC people are widely distributed at colleges and businesses nationwide. Tourists likewise come from everywhere. Hence MSP is the right location for the hub, not NYC.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: RobertS975
Posted 2013-01-01 11:28:06 and read 2260 times.

Again, most passengers strive to make just a single connection. So you need to look through the list of DL stations and determine how many points are served by various hubs and no other options. That is, how many cities can get to ANC with a SLC connection and not MSP etc.

Topic: RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC
Username: sancho99504
Posted 2013-01-01 19:52:24 and read 2092 times.

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 72):

Either the CFM powered A320s are grossly infurior to iAE powered A320s, or NWs just suck. US/HP operates PhX-ANC with A320 in the summer and a319 in winter jdue to differences in demand. ANC-PHX and ANC-MSP are pretty close in distance and US hasn't had to divert for fuel with the a320.


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/