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Topic: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: n102daman
Posted 2012-12-29 16:03:56 and read 15055 times.

With the upcoming Joint venture Delta - Virgin what is the estimated time frame for Delta to admit Virgin as a Skyteam member?

I travel regularly from DXB - ATL through London. Id prefer to earn Skymiles if I can. Currently I use BA and travel in World Traveler Plus and Club World every few months depending on the fare.

What are the differences between Virgin Atlantic and British Airways Premium Economy and Upper Class / Club World service.

Obviously Id prefer the Delta option. Giving up my BA / AA in order to earn status with Delta / Virgin via switching carriers.

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2012-12-29 16:09:51 and read 15031 times.

Quoting n102daman (Thread starter):
I travel regularly from DXB - ATL through London. Id prefer to earn Skymiles if I can.

Why through London? Why not DL ATL-DXB nonstop on lie-flat beds in J?

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: n102daman
Posted 2012-12-29 16:25:05 and read 14951 times.

I travel through London for a number of reasons Business, Family, Friends, and cost. The DL DXB - ATL non stop in Business Elite is much more expensive than the CLUB / WT+ option on BA through London. Because of the cost difference my travel allowance covers the cost of BA and not Delta.

BA's World Traveler Plus product is much better than Deltas Economy Comfort. BA considers WT+ to be a separate class of service thus reflected in it being a separate cabin on board the aircraft. While Delta considers Economy Comfort it to be an upgraded seat.

Delta's Business Elite product is better than BA's Club World but that doesn't justify the $2-3000 difference in cost.

With all that being said it would still be nice to have the option available to use the DL DXB - ATL service if i needed to.

Bottom line the Delta - Virgin deal is a win for my travel needs right now as it gives me MANY options as the company that I work for also is opening offices in Europe as well.

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: AirAfreak
Posted 2012-12-30 02:07:48 and read 12863 times.

I'm in a similar situation as yours where my business takes me frequently from Los Angeles to Seoul. My status is with Delta, so I only fly Skyteam. I have a spending cap on flights to ICN, so what I do is pay the difference out-of-pocket to maintain Elite Plus Status, etc. I don't want to invest in more than one alliance. My life is already complicated as it is. So, if my travel agent wants to book with Thai due to company policy for example, I will pay the difference to fly Korean Air, China Southern, China Airlines, China Eastern, or Delta to have a single mileage account, SkyPriority, Fast Track, Lounge Access, etc.

The difference could add up into the thousands per annum, but the pay-off for me is a free First Class Around the World ticket with free hotel stays and the option to purchase last-minute frequent flier award seats that require a higher mileage fare. Because you never know when those last-minute, personal emergencies that require flying may occur!

Take the non-stop and pay a little more. Stop waiting for Virgin Atlantic to make up it's mind. It's not about what you win now, it's all about the long-haul! Return on Investment. Trust me!

Bon Voyage,

AirAfreak

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: audidudi
Posted 2012-12-30 03:30:15 and read 12110 times.

Quoting AirAfreak (Reply 3):

I have been a DL Diamond Medallion since the beginning, but have never seen this "free First Class Around The World ticket with free hotel stays" being offered to me! Could you please elaborate how you get this great deal from Skyteam?

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: luganopirate
Posted 2012-12-30 04:33:42 and read 11599 times.

It's not a given that Virgin will join Skyteam. DL only bought 49% from SIA, a share they held for about 22 years without VS ever becoming part of Star Alliance. I'm sure there'll be advantages such as code sharing, through ticketing etc but don't hold your breath on them becoming part of Skyteam.

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: anstar
Posted 2012-12-30 06:13:09 and read 10754 times.

Quoting luganopirate (Reply 5):
It's not a given that Virgin will join Skyteam. DL only bought 49% from SIA, a share they held for about 22 years without VS ever becoming part of Star Alliance.

But Delta is going to be a far more engaged & hands on shareholder than Singapore ever was.

Virgin themselves have already said they will be assessing Skyteam entry over the next couple of months... I don't ever recall them saying they were publicly assessing a single alliance before.

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: StarGuy
Posted 2012-12-30 06:37:31 and read 10528 times.

Quoting luganopirate (Reply 5):

SIA purchased 49% of VS, 12 years ago so I'm assuming a typo?

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: luganopirate
Posted 2012-12-30 08:34:38 and read 9551 times.

Thanks Starguy. Yes, a typo, fat finger on an iPad! Apologies  

There was speculation that VS would join Star some time after SIA bought the stake but nothing happened. Whether this was due to reluctance from VS or SIA I don't know, but it didn't happen. Hence my comment, but indeed, maybe with DL being more active they will finally join an alliance.

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: LHRFlyer
Posted 2012-12-30 09:24:13 and read 9144 times.

Although Virgin says it hasn't yet decided things may change a) when Virgin gains a new CEO after Steve Ridgway leaves in March 2013 and b) Delta's purchase of SIA's 49% stake completes and it has three Directors on the board of Virgin.

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: luganopirate
Posted 2012-12-30 11:48:47 and read 7922 times.

Did SIA have any board positions at VS? If so I presume they'll resign now?

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: LHRFlyer
Posted 2012-12-30 12:45:28 and read 7468 times.

Quoting luganopirate (Reply 10):
Did SIA have any board positions at VS? If so I presume they'll resign now?

I think they have, or did have, at least one director but certainly not three. I assume any remaining directors will resign when Delta completes its purchase of their stake.

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: laca773
Posted 2012-12-30 12:46:43 and read 7454 times.

I think we'll see all three Virgin Air Companies join Sky Team. It makes a lot of sense for all involved, in particular, the Virgin Air Companies. It will give them access to markets they currently don't have not belonging to any alliance, and will strengthen their presence in all their major hubs, with nearly all have equal importance. I see it being increasingly important for them to join Sky Team considering VX is very vulnerable against the much bigger carriers and alliances in the US. In Austrailia, I think it will allow them to gain some significant footing when you consider all the problems QF has, and then across the Atlantic to Heathrow. This will allow VS to grow in ways they are limited in doing so now.

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: strfyr51
Posted 2012-12-30 13:11:31 and read 7278 times.

Quoting anstar (Reply 6):

In the recent Air Transport World magazine article Branson and VS management admitted they could not hold out against the big alliances and were going to Have to join one to have any chance of growth

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: DolphinAir747
Posted 2012-12-30 14:07:48 and read 6882 times.

Could VA follow suit, giving Skyteam a presence in an area of the world where they're very weak?

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: brilondon
Posted 2012-12-30 16:13:20 and read 6111 times.

Quoting luganopirate (Reply 5):
It's not a given that Virgin will join Skyteam. DL only bought 49% from SIA, a share they held for about 22 years without VS ever becoming part of Star Alliance. I'm sure there'll be advantages such as code sharing, through ticketing etc but don't hold your breath on them becoming part of Skyteam.

I can only hold my breath for about 2 minutes. That aside, having VS in Skyteam would not really open up many more options for me although it would give me more options to fly from here to London where I have business interests I go about once a month to take of. Flying on Virgin is not really something I look for as they do not allow me to travel very easily to Canada.

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: Azure
Posted 2012-12-30 16:21:32 and read 6084 times.

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 14):
Could VA follow suit,

Why not ? EY has increased its stake in VA to 10% and seem to have found a good dance partner with ST...

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: CXfirst
Posted 2012-12-31 03:40:15 and read 5733 times.

Quoting Azure (Reply 16):
Why not ? EY has increased its stake in VA to 10% and seem to have found a good dance partner with ST...

But NZ and SQ also have significant stakes in the company. I think VA are going the route of having strategic partners rather than being in an alliance. Even if VS joins, VA is not a given. VA will still partner with VS and DL, but joining the rest is not a given.

-CXfirst

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: Azure
Posted 2012-12-31 03:51:19 and read 5702 times.

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 17):
Even if VS joins, VA is not a given. VA will still partner with VS and DL, but joining the rest is not a given.

Agreed ! I am not saying it is a given but a possibility. We will see  

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: ZKOJH
Posted 2012-12-31 04:01:45 and read 5681 times.

And if they go and join 'SKYTEAM' they can forget about moving into the New T2 at LHR next year then sorry VS only for 'Star Alliance' ! haha they just like making lots of noise but very few actions. who every they go for it will be interesting the next year. is it Star is it SKYTEAM or will it just do nothing.!

just looking at the numbers of code-shares they have

Virgin Atlantic has agreements with the following airlines;

Air China - *
Air New Zealand - *
All Nippon Airways - *
Cyprus Airways
Gulf Air
Hawaiian Airlines
Jet Airways
Malaysia Airlines
Scandinavian Airlines - *
Singapore Airlines - *
South African Airways - *
Transaero
US Airways - *
Virgin America
Virgin Australia

Star Alliance = 7
Oneworld = 1
SKYTEAM = 1

and the new Delta JSA.

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: anstar
Posted 2012-12-31 04:37:55 and read 5618 times.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 13):
In the recent Air Transport World magazine article Branson and VS management admitted they could not hold out against the big alliances and were going to Have to join one to have any chance of growth

And int he JV press conference she said that Virgin Atlantic where now assessing entrance into Skyteam with a view on a deicision in the next few months.

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 19):
And if they go and join 'SKYTEAM' they can forget about moving into the New T2 at LHR next year

Virgin Atlantic have already confirmed they will not be moving their long haul operations into T2.... they will remain in T3 and hope to get their domestic flights moved into T3 also (with Delta eventually joining them).

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: ba319-131
Posted 2012-12-31 04:48:22 and read 5587 times.

Quoting n102daman (Reply 2):
Delta's Business Elite product is better than BA's Club World but that doesn't justify the $2-3000 difference in cost.

- It's not bad but I don't think it's better, at least from my experiences.

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: airbazar
Posted 2012-12-31 07:05:16 and read 5410 times.

Quoting n102daman (Thread starter):
With the upcoming Joint venture Delta - Virgin what is the estimated time frame for Delta to admit Virgin as a Skyteam member?

What makes you think VS wants to be in Sky Team? When SQ owned 49% they didn't join *A. In fact they had a partnership with CO which was in SkyTeam. So the history of VS and SkyTeam cooperation predates the DL JV by many years and they are still not members of SkyTeam.

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: n102daman
Posted 2013-01-03 01:19:54 and read 4682 times.

Thank you for all the input. I have my next two trips in the next three months booked with BA. This trip the return will be a 2 day layover in London and the next will be 2 days on both ends. This is my usual stopover when traveling back to Atlanta. I get a healthy travel allowance and it covers my booking

The non stop is nice and Id like to take advantage of it if the price is right and I can't make the stopover in London. My typical Booking is DXB-LHR and LHR-ATL Club World and return in World Traveler Plus with an upgrade if available and the price is right. I get a healthy travel allowance and it covers my booking with a little left over. I usually pay the difference for upgrades and what not.

My experience with BA Club World on both the 747 and the 777 I have found the seats to be a bit harder and narrower. Though my Experience with Delta Air Lines Business Elite was on the 767-400ER LHR-ATL a few months back was much more pleasant due to the smaller aircraft and 1-2-1 configuration. Granted this configuration and the seat is completely different than what Delta Air Lines has on the 777 and the 747s. I have seen it but not experienced it on those aircraft though I can say I find the configuration of the Delta 777 Business Elite cabin on the 777 much more attractive and comfortable from what I have seen.

There is no comparison to Delta's Economy Comfort and BA's World Traveler plus cabin. BA has Delta beat hands down. I am 6'3" so the extra room on the return legs is nice for the shorter tailwind flights. It would be nice to earn SkyMiles when traveling on that route as I enjoy it and my stopovers in London.

With Delta purchasing a 49% stake and having 3 board members on the with VA it would make sense for VA to join SkyTeam. I am sure ill be able to Delta seats on VA flights from DXB - LHR at least I hope so If not well then I guess Ill just stick with BA. Mostly I was curious as to what other forum members take on it was as I am pretty much out of the look where Delta is concerned as my employment has changed.

Thanks again for all your input. I'LL be listening to more if you have it and welcome it.

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: SKAirbus
Posted 2013-01-03 01:44:25 and read 4607 times.

I suppose Skyteam membership could provide some AF and KL feeds into the VS network but at the same time I wonder how membership would benefit VS? AF and KL already offer their own feeds from UK airports to Paris and Amsterdam where their respective long haul networks already cover most of VS's destinations.

It may be more advantageous just to have a codeshare with DL for domestic US flights.

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: nickofatlanta
Posted 2013-01-03 02:09:22 and read 4676 times.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 24):

SkyTeam members in the Far East could help feed VS flights such as China Eastern in PVG.

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: anstar
Posted 2013-01-03 02:22:47 and read 4645 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 22):
What makes you think VS wants to be in Sky Team?

Because the COO said they are assessing Skyteam membership over the next couple of months - why assess entry if you don't want to join?

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2013-01-03 03:45:41 and read 4600 times.

Quoting anstar (Reply 26):
Because the COO said they are assessing Skyteam membership over the next couple of months - why assess entry if you don't want to join?

Absolutely. Too many people here can't see the forrest through the trees. Anyone who thinks that VS isn't joining SkyTeam didn't listen carefully to the DL/VS press conference. And they haven't been paying attention to VS financial performance. The carrier needs a fundamental shift in its business model. A strong alliance membership is key. Giving its customers access to the world through Delta and very conveniently located hubs at AMS & CDG is a game changer for Virgin.

There is not a chance in hell that VS is joining Star given Delta's investment. So SkyTeam it is. Get used to it.

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: gilesdavies
Posted 2013-01-03 08:30:04 and read 4221 times.

Why would any SkyTeam airline in Europe want Virgin Atlantic to be a member?

Other than Delta, I can't see any benefits for SkyTeam's other major airlines KLM/Air France, surely they will veto them joining?!

KLM/AF fly to nearly all the long haul destinations that VS does, with one of two exceptions. Surely this could take passengers away from their CDG and AMS hubs to fly through LHR and still earn miles through their respected FF programme, to add insult to injury.

Nearly all of Virgin Atlantic's routes are long haul, and offer no feeder services to other airlines hubs, so basically are not exposed to the short haul routes that the likes of KL, AF, OK and AZ have to compete with against the likes of easyJet and Ryanair, in order to feed passengers.

Also why would AF for example want to fly a passenger CDG-LHR and then to connect on to a Virgin flight, which the passenger could get to direct with their own metal or through an already established SkyTeam Hub at the other end.

Also with Virgin soon to start flying MAN, ABZ and EDI to LHR (with EI metal), this is going to make them to be competing directly from all three airports with KL and AF to their respected hubs, trying to catch connecting traffic to similar destinations.

Don't flame me, if you disagree. But I would be keen to know what, (if any) benefits VS brings to SkyTeam.

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2013-01-03 09:05:41 and read 4137 times.

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 28):
Why would any SkyTeam airline in Europe want Virgin Atlantic to be a member?

Because an alliance with Virgin gives AF & KL a stronger point-of-sale presence in the U.K., a key feed market for their hubs.

Virgin's network is so small that it won't have much of a dilutive affect on AF/KL, but the alliance would give Brits another choice for their comprehensive travel needs. VS would, in effect, become a bigger player in the market than it is today. This is pretty much what Virgin Australia is doing with its virtual network.

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: anstar
Posted 2013-01-03 09:12:14 and read 4095 times.

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 28):
Other than Delta, I can't see any benefits for SkyTeam's other major airlines KLM/Air France, surely they will veto them joining?!

Why do they have 4 Chinese members?

VS offer AF/KL & Skyteam the LHR onward traffic. AF tried doing LHR-LAX previously so it must have some importance to them...

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: LDVAviation
Posted 2013-01-03 09:12:25 and read 4092 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 29):
Because an alliance with Virgin gives AF & KL a stronger point-of-sale presence in the U.K., a key feed market for their hubs.

Virgin's network is so small that it won't have much of a dilutive affect on AF/KL, but the alliance would give Brits another choice for their comprehensive travel needs. VS would, in effect, become a bigger player in the market than it is today. This is pretty much what Virgin Australia is doing with its virtual network.

Brits already have many longhaul and shorthaul options, other than BA, many of them from more convenient regional hubs like Manchester.

Why would they switch to flying Skyteam when that would mean flying out of LHR and having to connect at AMS or CDG. If they are flying out of LHR, the clear choice remains BA. (Just how BA wanted it.) Elsewhere, Brits have a choice of the LCC's and the Gulf airlines.

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-01-03 09:22:03 and read 4056 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 27):
There is not a chance in hell that VS is joining Star given Delta's investment. So SkyTeam it is. Get used to it.

I agree completely, however, since SRB owns 51%, what can DL do to stop him from joining Star?

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2013-01-03 10:06:29 and read 3952 times.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 31):
Brits already have many longhaul and shorthaul options, other than BA, many of them from more convenient regional hubs like Manchester.

Why would they switch to flying Skyteam when that would mean flying out of LHR and having to connect at AMS or CDG. If they are flying out of LHR, the clear choice remains BA. (Just how BA wanted it.) Elsewhere, Brits have a choice of the LCC's and the Gulf airlines.

Because LHR is capacity constrained and will never accommodate all of the demand. And, due to its presence in certain markets (including the upcoming JV with Delta), VS has an incumbent customer base in the UK. Certainly there are lots of people who fly VS when they can, but don't when they can't. Many of these people will be targets. Corporations as well. Plus, by the time they build out the virtual network, VS will naturally become the UK alternative to BA. And some folks who live in the UK will be interested in that.

Due to the lack of slots at LHR, and their focus on long-haul markets, BA misses a LOT of destinations nonstop out of LHR. People either have to fly a foreign carrier to many destinations (if a nonstop exists) or they have to connect. Which oneworld hub remotely approaches the strengths of AMS or CDG? None.

AMS and CDG are by far the best connecting hubs for UK residents. This is true for not only geographic reasons, but for the sheer size and scope of the hubs. Its basic Airline Network 101 stuff.

But does it matter? Do you really think they won't join SkyTeam?

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 32):
I agree completely, however, since SRB owns 51%, what can DL do to stop him from joining Star?

A) He's not going to do it.
B) Star doesn't want them. Never has.
C) You can be damn sure that the JV agreement between DL and VS precludes VS from joining any alliance other than SkyTeam.

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: n102daman
Posted 2013-01-03 11:31:20 and read 3797 times.

I would think that it would strengthen Deltas stake in UK routes, like wise for VA. That seems to be the biggest reason Delta wants to buy in. Understanding that London is a major the hub to Europe and the rest of the world. It also gives Delta the ability to compete directly with British Airways in the UK market.

I can't see where it won't benefit both airlines.

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: anstar
Posted 2013-01-03 11:40:08 and read 3800 times.

Quoting n102daman (Reply 34):
Understanding that London is a major the hub to Europe

Bingo - and has the most premium EU-US traffic flows.

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: LDVAviation
Posted 2013-01-03 12:25:53 and read 3671 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 33):
Because LHR is capacity constrained and will never accommodate all of the demand. And, due to its presence in certain markets (including the upcoming JV with Delta), VS has an incumbent customer base in the UK. Certainly there are lots of people who fly VS when they can, but don't when they can't. Many of these people will be targets. Corporations as well. Plus, by the time they build out the virtual network, VS will naturally become the UK alternative to BA. And some folks who live in the UK will be interested in that.

Due to the lack of slots at LHR, and their focus on long-haul markets, BA misses a LOT of destinations nonstop out of LHR. People either have to fly a foreign carrier to many destinations (if a nonstop exists) or they have to connect. Which oneworld hub remotely approaches the strengths of AMS or CDG? None.

AMS and CDG are by far the best connecting hubs for UK residents. This is true for not only geographic reasons, but for the sheer size and scope of the hubs. Its basic Airline Network 101 stuff.

But does it matter? Do you really think they won't join SkyTeam?

Fewer and fewer Brits are connecting via CDG and AMS even with the way things are now. There was an article in Aviation Week about this earlier in the year. The Gulf airlines now command the biggest share of the traffic that does not fly direct from LHR to its long haul destination. As to everything else shorthaul (Europe or elsewhere), well, that's where the LCC's have been most successfull.

That being the case, there may be no room for a UK alternative to BA, especially at LHR where BA now commands more slots as a result of the BMI purchase.

As to that virtual network you speak of, it is essentially a one-stop network with the additional hassle of connecting at CDG or AMS. The history of such networks, especially in light of the increasing competition provided by the Gulf carriers with their one-stop networks from regional bases, has not been good. See the Qantas/BA JV through Singapore.

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-01-03 12:32:08 and read 3623 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 22):
In fact they had a partnership with CO which was in SkyTeam.

Not likely that CO was going to push for VS to be in Skyteam as CO was always a reluctant member of that alliance.




Also, before Skyteam was formed, DL and VS had a codeshare relationship.

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: nickofatlanta
Posted 2013-01-03 12:37:48 and read 3594 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 37):

It was also a block space codeshare arrangement meaning that DL purchased an allotment of seats on VS flights, effectively guaranteeing VS revenue.

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-01-03 12:57:44 and read 3527 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 33):
A) He's not going to do it.
B) Star doesn't want them. Never has.
C) You can be damn sure that the JV agreement between DL and VS precludes VS from joining any alliance other than SkyTeam.

Again, to be sure, I agree completely. My question was not rhetorical...What can DL do if perhaps SRB decides to join Star? Can DL prevent it? If so, how?

Topic: RE: Virgin Atlantic As A Skyteam Member
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2013-01-03 20:02:26 and read 3150 times.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 36):
Fewer and fewer Brits are connecting via CDG and AMS even with the way things are now. There was an article in Aviation Week about this earlier in the year. The Gulf airlines now command the biggest share of the traffic that does not fly direct from LHR to its long haul destination. As to everything else shorthaul (Europe or elsewhere), well, that's where the LCC's have been most successfull.

There are how many destinations that AMS and CDG can serve that no Gulf hub can serve? Lots if higher yielding traffic has no interest in the LCC products. And perhaps the reason Gulf airlines are achieving so much success is because there hasn't been a compelling alternative. There may be fewer Brits using AMS and CDG, but isn't that exactly the reason for SkyTeam to want VS? It is a strategic move to reverse some of those losses.

At the end of the day, VS can only help AMS & CDG and vice versa. Which is exactly why it makes sense.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 36):
As to that virtual network you speak of, it is essentially a one-stop network with the additional hassle of connecting at CDG or AMS. The history of such networks, especially in light of the increasing competition provided by the Gulf carriers with their one-stop networks from regional bases, has not been good. See the Qantas/BA JV through Singapore.

Its not the same. CDG and AMS are geographically to the UK what ATL is to Florida, the best located hubs with the widest variety of connecting opportunities. They are close enough to effectively provide 360 degree coverage. In fact, AMS has historically been the UK's primary connecting airport. This deal simply adds the VS code (and their customer base) to the mix. The SIN example didn't work because it didn't have the frequency or scope that AMS and CDG do. And, more importantly, SIN is nearly 4000 miles from SYD. AMS and CDG are both less than 250 miles from LHR. (Which is precisely the reason it makes so much sense.)


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