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Topic: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-07 01:27:26 and read 15800 times.

With the speculation from the TImes of Trenton that F9 would be announcing an expansion of TTN, I went to flyfrontier.com to see if something would come out early seems the interactive route map did.

Looks like Chicago (MDW), Detroit, Raliegh-Durham (RDU), Atlanta and Columbus, OH. That sounds too adventurous but I don't know. here's the screen cap from fly frontier.com

Frontiers new cities


[Edited 2013-01-07 02:05:16]

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-07 03:57:47 and read 15690 times.

Ok, its slowly coming out and there is no press release but some info can be found scattered on the website

TTN-MDW starts April 8, 2013 and is 6X weekly ex Saturday
TTN-ATL starts April 8, 2013 and is 4X Weekly (Mon,Wed, Fri, Sat)
TTN-DTW starts Apirl 9, 2013 and is 4X Weekly (Sun, Tue, Thur, Fri)
TTN-CMH Starts April 8, 2013 and is 3X Weekly (Sun, Mon, Thur)
TTN-RDU Starts April 8, 2013 and is 6X Weekly ex Saturday

These are some interesting choices and alot of them. WOW.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: CIDFlyer
Posted 2013-01-07 04:27:41 and read 15627 times.

wow this is very interesting, indeed! GoOd luck to them, seems they are trying to diversify a bit. F9 doesnt even fly from MDW, RDU or CMH do they?

[Edited 2013-01-07 04:40:21]

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-01-07 04:30:59 and read 15619 times.

I think that's a bit much on the RDU route. Will be pretty interesting to see how these pan out.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-07 04:34:57 and read 15606 times.

Why CMH and RDU? Are there companies in Princeton that have ties to those cities?

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: freakyrat
Posted 2013-01-07 04:45:48 and read 15573 times.

F9 does fly from MDW to DEN.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: RL757PVD
Posted 2013-01-07 05:13:01 and read 15512 times.

This massive TTN expansion seems to be very fitting of the phrase "betting the farm" for F9, we'll have to see how it turns out...

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-07 05:32:44 and read 15445 times.

To use another phrase, I'm wondering if F9 isn't "Throwing (crap) against the wall and seeing what sticks" . I'm enjoying it because it benefits me but thats the long and short of it..

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: sdoyon
Posted 2013-01-07 05:33:13 and read 15445 times.

Quoting freakyrat (Reply 5):
F9 does fly from MDW to DEN.

I bet this flight is timed to be thru to DEN. I wonder if this also means that TTN-DEN isn't possible because of TTN's runway.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: enilria
Posted 2013-01-07 05:59:59 and read 15371 times.

The runway is short and they don't want to open new stations, so it appears they are hooking up most things they can in the runway range limit.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-07 06:15:22 and read 15312 times.

Available via the online schedule (not bookable)

Here are the times for MDW, DTW and ATL. And the DEN-TTN 1 stop via MDW (havent figured out where the stop is TTN-DEN)

X TUE/SAT
F9 907 TTN 1035am MDW 1150am
F9 532 MDW 1115am TTN 205pm
TUE
F9 907 TTN 1105am MDW 1220pm
F9 908 MDW 100pm TTN 350pm

========

TUE
F9 929 TTN 430pm DTW 615pm
F9 930 DTW 655pm TTN 835pm
THU
F9 929 TTN 1140am DTW 125pm
F9 930 DTW 205pm TTN 345pm
FRI
F9 929 TTN 150pm DTW 335pm
F9 930 DTW 415pm TTN 555pm
============

MON
F9 933 TTN 605pm ATL 815pm
F9 934 ATL 855pm TTN 1059pm

WED
F9 933 TTN 150pm ATL 400pm
F9 934 ATL 440pm TTN 644pm

FRI
F9 933 TTN 635pm ATL 845pm
F9 934 ATL 925pm TTN 1129pm

=========
X TUE/SAT

F9 532 DEN 715am TTN 205pm (44 minute stop in MDW)

Oh and with arrivals like 1059pm and 1129pm...HERE COME THE NIMBYS

[Edited 2013-01-07 06:19:30]

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: kgaiflyer
Posted 2013-01-07 06:30:37 and read 15262 times.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 3):
I think that's a bit much on the RDU route. Will be pretty interesting to see how these pan out.

Been decades since I've lived in that area.

But I'm guessing that gridlock makes EWR and PHL a difficult access for the electronics and pharmaceutical firms in the New Jersey US-1 corridor. I'm also guessing that the residential communities on the Pennsylvania-side of the river will be taking leisure trips out of TTN.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mikefrommke
Posted 2013-01-07 06:32:47 and read 15255 times.

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 6):
This massive TTN expansion seems to be very fitting of the phrase "betting the farm" for F9, we'll have to see how it turns out...

Give me a break. This is using what, all of 2 planes?

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 7):
To use another phrase, I'm wondering if F9 isn't "Throwing (crap) against the wall and seeing what sticks" . I'm enjoying it because it benefits me but thats the long and short of it..

They are looking to be more than DEN. They've gotten chased out of a lot of places, so yes they are experimenting. Will it work? Who knows? But with markets everywhere already saturated they have to be given credit for trying new things.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: enilria
Posted 2013-01-07 06:50:28 and read 15197 times.

Quoting mikefrommke (Reply 12):
Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 6):
This massive TTN expansion seems to be very fitting of the phrase "betting the farm" for F9, we'll have to see how it turns out...

Give me a break. This is using what, all of 2 planes?

It's not betting the farm, but they are squandering their gold if it fails again.

Quoting mikefrommke (Reply 12):
They are looking to be more than DEN. They've gotten chased out of a lot of places

Will B6 or DL react? I think DL in TTN-ATL is almost a lock. Surprised they chose that one. DL has flown it before I think.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: Flytravel
Posted 2013-01-07 07:03:49 and read 15153 times.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 11):
makes EWR and PHL a difficult access for the electronics and pharmaceutical firms in the New Jersey US-1 corridor

Also, WN is dropping PHL-RDU. I think there are few ties between PA and Raleigh, including pharma companies like GSK having presence, and demand that was built up over the years through WN. I don't know about CMH- would have suggested CLE over CMH. Cleveland is a larger market though Columbus is central between Cleveland and Cincinnati.

TTN-MDW might be a little unnerving to WN. While I don't think WN would be interested in that route, it cuts a little from their PHL and EWR-MDW. TTN-ATL could have been a route WN flies if it didn't want to fly PHL-ATL say after FL is ceased.

[Edited 2013-01-07 07:06:14]

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: enilria
Posted 2013-01-07 07:07:16 and read 15144 times.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 14):
TTN-MDW might be a little unnerving to WN. While I don't think WN would be interested in that route, it cuts a little from their PHL and EWR-MDW.

I see DL and perhaps B6 caring about this. I think US probably doesn't add TTN.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-01-07 07:19:48 and read 15089 times.

Only the leisure markets in Florida have even a chance of working.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 1):
TTN-ATL starts April 8, 2013 and is 4X Weekly (Mon,Wed, Fri, Sat)

Meanwhile F9 cuts ATL-DEN from 3.0 to .8. Can TTN-ATL be better use of a plane???

Quoting mikefrommke (Reply 12):
Give me a break. This is using what, all of 2 planes?

a F9 FA told me they are losing something like 10 frames in 2013. Will this just be temporary, then used to backfill DEN.

Quoting enilria (Reply 13):
Will B6 or DL react? I think DL in TTN-ATL is almost a lock

Why would B6 care? Also why should DL open a station they just closed a few years ago to respond to a carrier that will most likely fail (The TTN-ATL timings stink for TTN point of sale pax) resulting in DL having to keep TTN open for probably a full year in order to avoid DOJ scrutiny?

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 14):
TTN-MDW might be a little unnerving to WN

Not really. I doubt they are unnerved. It probably will take 1 pax per flight off their flights.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 14):
TTN-ATL could have been a route WN flies if it didn't want to fly PHL-ATL say after FL is ceased.

WN didnt get to where they are by being dumb.

Fact that F9 is doing this rather than DEN expansion, doesnt bode well for the airline's future. Almost anything from DEN should do better. How about DEN-CAE 4x weekly? DEN-SYR or ROC 4x weekly? Geez that's gotta be better system wise.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: nkops
Posted 2013-01-07 07:28:50 and read 15047 times.

doesn't TTN have a midnight curfew? I would think a 2329 arrival from Atlanta will cut it close when the summer thunderstorm season kicks in. Mercer county use to publish the violators publicly on their website.

this will also be competing with Nk on the acy - atl / dtw / ord seasonal service

[Edited 2013-01-07 07:33:47]

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: JA
Posted 2013-01-07 07:56:07 and read 14973 times.

RDU is big from NYC. All of them except CMH are likely to work VERY well.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: ItalianFlyer
Posted 2013-01-07 08:05:45 and read 14946 times.

I am sure they did their homework on the potential and this isnt dart-board network planning. I am guessing that the RDU segment is aimed at biotech and CMH is insurance/financial services. The head-scratcher to me is is DTW.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-07 08:06:34 and read 14950 times.

TTNs curfew is voluntary, all they do is publish your info on the website (that no one goes to BTW)

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: EWRandMDW
Posted 2013-01-07 08:13:02 and read 14915 times.

Are these new flights in addition to the announced Florida and MSY schedules?

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: enilria
Posted 2013-01-07 08:20:38 and read 14873 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 16):
Why would B6 care?

Look at the geography, it is definitely in the NYC catchment, as much as SWF is.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 16):
Also why should DL open a station they just closed a few years ago to respond to a carrier that will most likely fail

To make sure

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 16):
to avoid DOJ scrutiny?

Nobody seems to care about them any more in this industry

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: jetsetter629
Posted 2013-01-07 08:37:52 and read 14820 times.

I for one love this - I have booked F9 for a weekend in New Orleans in March and it's great to see their expansion. I believe initial bookings have been strong. Although strange routes - CMH, DTW, RDU?

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: EWRandMDW
Posted 2013-01-07 08:42:41 and read 14782 times.

Quoting ItalianFlyer (Reply 19):
The head-scratcher to me is is DTW.

There is some pharma/biotech in Detroit area, esp Ann Arbor and to north and west.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-07 08:57:25 and read 15136 times.

An idea for the F9 marketing team. Although a transportation competitor of sorts F9 might want to think about entering a MOU with http://us.megabus.com/default.aspx to provide and market service from from PHL and the NYC area to TTN. The free parking at TTN is another perk which should draw some fliers from outlying areas.

Although MegaBus does not currently service TTN it does provide service to Princeton and three other NJ cities. Service is offered from the NYC to Princeton but not PHL to TTN/Princeton. That's an easy fix though.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: STT757
Posted 2013-01-07 09:05:00 and read 15086 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 13):
DL has flown it before I think.

Not TTN, perhaps your thinking of ACY where DL flew to both ATL and MCO with CRJs.

Quoting enilria (Reply 22):

Look at the geography, it is definitely in the NYC catchment, as much as SWF is.

TTN is actually closer to Manhattan than SWF.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-07 09:19:35 and read 15243 times.

Quoting nkops (Reply 17):
doesn't TTN have a midnight curfew? I would think a 2329 arrival from Atlanta will cut it close
Quoting JA (Reply 18):
TTNs curfew is voluntary, all they do is publish your info on the website

In the noise abatement FAQ at http://www.state.nj.us/counties/mercer/departments/airport/ it also say the TTN ATC tower tower is manned until 10: PM I suppose that is going to change if it hasn't already with the late ATL arrivals on Monday and Friday.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: ScottB
Posted 2013-01-07 09:28:12 and read 15234 times.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 11):
But I'm guessing that gridlock makes EWR and PHL a difficult access for the electronics and pharmaceutical firms in the New Jersey US-1 corridor.

Accepting that traffic makes access to EWR & PHL difficult from central N.J., the sub-daily schedule in most markets makes F9 @ TTN less attractive for business travel. Most people traveling on business aren't going to stay an extra night in a hotel to save an hour on the road.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 4):
Why CMH and RDU?

I don't really get this either. They're (re-)opening stations just for a few flights a week to TTN?

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-01-07 12:36:44 and read 14970 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 26):
Not TTN, perhaps your thinking of ACY where DL flew to both ATL and MCO with CRJs.

DL (Comair) actually flew to ATL and BOS frmo 2006-2007.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: ScottB
Posted 2013-01-07 12:39:40 and read 14973 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 26):
Quoting enilria (Reply 13):
DL has flown it before I think.

Not TTN, perhaps your thinking of ACY where DL flew to both ATL and MCO with CRJs.

DL flew to both BOS and ATL from TTN: http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=633

3x daily to BOS, 1x daily to ATL.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 27):
it also say the TTN ATC tower tower is manned until 10: PM I suppose that is going to change if it hasn't already with the late ATL arrivals on Monday and Friday.

Not necessarily.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: JA
Posted 2013-01-07 12:40:29 and read 14926 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 25):
An idea for the F9 marketing team. Although a transportation competitor of sorts F9 might want to think about entering a MOU with http://us.megabus.com/default.aspx to provide and market service from from PHL and the NYC area to TTN. The free parking at TTN is another perk which should draw some fliers from outlying areas.

You know, that is a good idea. I could get them some buses from Center City Philadelphia and New York City. Frankly, they could move the E190s to work out of SWF and the Port Authority would be VERY helpful in that regard as well.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: enilria
Posted 2013-01-07 12:42:49 and read 14891 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 26):
Quoting enilria (Reply 13):
DL has flown it before I think.

Not TTN, perhaps your thinking of ACY where DL flew to both ATL and MCO with CRJs.

They flew Dec06-Jun07 with CRJ.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: steeler83
Posted 2013-01-07 12:51:48 and read 14821 times.

Quoting JA (Reply 31):
You know, that is a good idea. I could get them some buses from Center City Philadelphia and New York City

Is there a shuttle between TTN and the West Trenton SEPTA stop? I guess taxis would work...

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-07 12:52:39 and read 14873 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 16):
How about DEN-CAE 4x weekly? DEN-SYR or ROC 4x weekly? Geez that's gotta be better system wise.

I think any of those routes would be awful. There are reasons why Southwest turned down the multi-million dollar subsidy offer from CAE.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 28):
Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 4):
Why CMH and RDU?

I don't really get this either. They're (re-)opening stations just for a few flights a week to TTN?

I'm scratching my head about those two as well. I could maybe make a case for RDU, but CMH is a puzzle to me.

Mostly, i am concerned about TTN-ATL and potential Delta retaliation - DTW makes it a double poke in the eye with a burnt stick. Then again, I'm not privy to what is said in the boardrooms, and I have no idea was discussed between BB and Delta in the negotiations for the LGA slots.

Those LGA slots are obviously beneficial to Delta and I might hope it would respond in kind. But in my experience, leopards don't change their spots.

Then again, i don't know if CEO Siegel is (a) ready for a battle or (b) looking for one. Somehow, this occasional but vicious war between Frontier and Delta has to be addressed.

I was completely happy with TTN as a leisure flight base and am happy with with MDW as a substitute for DEN - not as good, lacking connections to the west, but then most of the choices would lack those connections and Chicago has its own attractions.

But I think this expansion changes the nature of Frontier at TTN. Good? Bad? Dunno.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: rampart
Posted 2013-01-07 12:55:48 and read 14777 times.

Quoting sdoyon (Reply 8):
I bet this flight is timed to be thru to DEN. I wonder if this also means that TTN-DEN isn't possible because of TTN's runway

Not that I can tell. It's not even an allowed booking based on the cities I can select on their reservation page. I was hoping for it.

Quoting enilria (Reply 13):
It's not betting the farm, but they are squandering their gold if it fails again.

I still don't know why COS didn't work, it's their own (the customers) darn fault -- not the airline's -- for not using what surveys and market research seemed to show would work. I figure those they ask for surveys don't follow through? Crying for more servive, but don't use it, go figure. Anyhow, TTN is an experiment, like COS, not a squandering. I don't know if much money was actually lost at COS, given that it was already a station, and had paying customers on planes that may have made more money than being utilized elsewhere. To a point, not enough. Perhaps TTN will work better. If the hot air that customers blow about needing new service actually materialize.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 26):
Quoting enilria (Reply 13):
DL has flown it before I think.

Not TTN, perhaps your thinking of ACY where DL flew to both ATL and MCO with CRJs.

I was thinking it was WIlmington, which I think DL did serve, but apparently they did serve TTN, too.

-Rampart

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: iowaman
Posted 2013-01-07 12:56:38 and read 14769 times.

Wow, this is quite interesting. Anyone know how loads are looking for the previously announced routes?

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 7):
To use another phrase, I'm wondering if F9 isn't "Throwing (crap) against the wall and seeing what sticks" . I'm enjoying it because it benefits me but thats the long and short of it..
Quoting mikefrommke (Reply 12):
They are looking to be more than DEN. They've gotten chased out of a lot of places, so yes they are experimenting. Will it work? Who knows? But with markets everywhere already saturated they have to be given credit for trying new things.

Yep, F9 seems to be attempting to diversify their eggs that are all in the same basket at DEN, with limited success at least in my opinion.

Quoting sdoyon (Reply 8):
I bet this flight is timed to be thru to DEN. I wonder if this also means that TTN-DEN isn't possible because of TTN's runway.

It's not too bad looking at next June - there is a 2 hr 50 min connection offered on the website TTN-MDW-DEN. The return has a 1.5 hour connection (also bookable) DEN-MDW-TTN.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 14):
Also, WN is dropping PHL-RDU. I think there are few ties between PA and Raleigh, including pharma companies like GSK having presence, and demand that was built up over the years through WN. I don't know about CMH- would have suggested CLE over CMH.

WN also flew PHL-CMH in addition to PHL-RDU. CMH performed relatively poor with low load-factors in the high 50% area. US was in the 80's on the same route. PHL-RDU appears to have performed a little better in the low 70's, with US performing slightly better.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 14):
TTN-MDW might be a little unnerving to WN. While I don't think WN would be interested in that route, it cuts a little from their PHL and EWR-MDW.
Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 16):

Not really. I doubt they are unnerved. It probably will take 1 pax per flight off their flights.

PHL and EWR - MDW will be at 6 daily each this summer so I can't imagine a less than daily flight will take too much away either.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 16):
Meanwhile F9 cuts ATL-DEN from 3.0 to .8. Can TTN-ATL be better use of a plane???

Makes me wonder with DEN having connecting feed and an FF base if TTN-ATL can work. Of course F9 won't have the competition on TTN-ATL though.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 28):
Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 4):Why CMH and RDU?
I don't really get this either. They're (re-)opening stations just for a few flights a week to TTN?

Seems risky from a cost stand point - maybe they know something about TTN we don't. 

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: luv2fly
Posted 2013-01-07 13:00:18 and read 14746 times.

I have no idea the thoughts behind this. Did they learn nothing from the LAX flights, should we bring up the CUN hub flights.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2013-01-07 13:20:40 and read 14602 times.

What makes F9 decide to do something like this at TTN vs another city like MSY or AUS?

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: Flytravel
Posted 2013-01-07 13:25:47 and read 14575 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 28):
Most people traveling on business aren't going to stay an extra night in a hotel to save an hour on the road.

Well, it has to build somehow. Probably first by building the leisure traffic and then increase of frequency.

Quoting iowaman (Reply 36):
PHL and EWR - MDW will be at 6 daily each this summer so I can't imagine a less than daily flight will take too much away either.

WN probably currently carries most of the NJ to Chicago leisure traffic. There might be no impact to them in the summer with one more flight from another LFC when there is anyways more demand. NK also has an ACY-ORD flight in the summer. However, if F9 does well on TTN-MDW and it increases frequency on it, and it could attract business traffic. That's the only reason I mentioned WN. F9 seems pretty dedicated to TTN. They are giving MDW the almost daily frequency as well, even when Chicago fares are generally reasonable anyways from PHL and EWR. PHL-CLE and EWR-CLE fares are very high, and it could have done that route, and would have gotten more than just leisure, but chose the bigger midwestern city, Chicago.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: rampart
Posted 2013-01-07 13:31:17 and read 14565 times.

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 37):
I have no idea the thoughts behind this. Did they learn nothing from the LAX flights, should we bring up the CUN hub flights.

TTN is not PHL, nor is it BMD, which would be more analogous to compare to LAX or CUN. I think of TTN as more like IWA or PHF, under- or non-served airports in a larger metro area that seem to be working well with pioneering airlines.

-Rampart

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2013-01-07 15:28:01 and read 13913 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 34):
Mostly, i am concerned about TTN-ATL and potential Delta retaliation - DTW makes it a double poke in the eye with a burnt stick. Then again, I'm not privy to what is said in the boardrooms, and I have no idea was discussed between BB and Delta in the negotiations for the LGA slots.

I bet that DL will retaliate with both TTN-ATL and TTN-DTW within one week from now, with ATL on the CR7 or CR9 and DTW on the CR2, and both with 2x daily frequencies. If they're feeling gutsy in ATL, I could see them throwing in TTN-RDU and/or MSP as well.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-07 15:39:05 and read 13790 times.

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 37):
I have no idea the thoughts behind this. Did they learn nothing from the LAX flights, should we bring up the CUN hub flights.

CUN was never a hub. It's difficult to think how it could be, with no connection opportunities there.

It remains a strong destination for Frontier with a dozen routes (in season) and considerable support from Apple Vacations.

PUJ is headed in the same direction.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 38):
What makes F9 decide to do something like this at TTN vs another city like MSY or AUS?

There's a paper written about it by one of the two architects of it. It was written before this expansion was announced:

http://www.theairlinezone.com/2012/11/trenton-airport/

"There are a handful of commercially certified airports that are not currently served around the United States that the major airlines have overlooked or avoided for various reasons. In some cases, these airports have large populations that would be willing to use them if there was adequate commercial service. Serving the populations around some of these airport opportunities should not necessarily be defined as serving-the-under-served; but as better-serving-the-inconvenienced. These inconvenienced population centers have adequate service within a +/- 60 minute driving distance, but would prefer a closer-in option for air travel if the service was offered."

Although I have little doubt some members of a.not will find holes to pick.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mke717spotter
Posted 2013-01-07 16:16:36 and read 13566 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 7):
To use another phrase, I'm wondering if F9 isn't "Throwing (crap) against the wall and seeing what sticks" .


This seems very similar to what they tried at COS.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: CIDFlyer
Posted 2013-01-07 16:46:48 and read 13430 times.

Hope TTN pans out, wishing nothing but success for them, its a nice airline. I have to wonder though with all the expansion NK is doing at DFW if maybe they missed the boat on that one by having a southern tier hub? DFW is proving to be good for NK.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: smoot4208
Posted 2013-01-07 16:58:38 and read 13340 times.

Quoting mke717spotter (Reply 44):
Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 7):
To use another phrase, I'm wondering if F9 isn't "Throwing (crap) against the wall and seeing what sticks" .


This seems very similar to what they tried at COS.

I'm kind of surprised they aren't going to do TTN-BOS. Seems like it would offer nice feed at least the Florida markets. Also, you currently cannot connect in MDW to DEN, even though the same airplane flies TTN-MDW-DEN. I'd think they would at least want to offer that.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-07 17:00:28 and read 13339 times.

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 46):
I'm kind of surprised they aren't going to do TTN-BOS.

I am, too. But I guess there's still plenty of time to do so, although it may depend on aircraft availability.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: smoot4208
Posted 2013-01-07 17:06:13 and read 13259 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 47):
I am, too. But I guess there's still plenty of time to do so, although it may depend on aircraft availability.

It looks like they'd have enough time from when the aircraft gets back from Florida to RON in BOS and then an early am flight to TTN before it heads back to Florida/MSY

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-07 17:30:48 and read 13139 times.

Actually DL would gain more from TTN-ATL then F9 does because they will have the connecting pax. I can't do TTN-SLC on F9, I could do TTN-ATL-SLC on Delta. I will however fly F9 whenever possible because they are the only ones keeping TTN in business. If DL started TTN they would drop it as soon as F9 dropped DTW and ATL. Best of luck F9 but you shouldn't have poked the tiger with a stick.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: iowaman
Posted 2013-01-07 17:39:00 and read 13076 times.

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 46):
Also, you currently cannot connect in MDW to DEN, even though the same airplane flies TTN-MDW-DEN.

I checked some random dates in June and F9 does offer TTN-MDW-DEN and back for sale:

Quoting iowaman (Reply 36):
It's not too bad looking at next June - there is a 2 hr 50 min connection offered on the website TTN-MDW-DEN. The return has a 1.5 hour connection (also bookable) DEN-MDW-TTN.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-07 17:39:44 and read 13093 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 49):
If DL started TTN they would drop it as soon as F9 dropped DTW and ATL. Best of luck F9 but you shouldn't have poked the tiger with a stick.

While I'm obviously concerned about a potential Delta retaliation, I'm not convinced the result would be what you suggest.

It is arguably possible that the presence of Delta would bring a whole other level of passengers to TTN.

My concern is more about what else Delta might do. It wasn't Delta's retaliation on MSP-LAX that killed the route for Frontier - it was Delta's immediate announcement of DEN-LAX, which they did not otherwise serve then.

At the same time, what Delta did on MCI-MSP is (or should be) quite fresh in Frontier's collective mind, so I have to assume they're ready for it.

IF it happens, I wouldn't rule out Frontier going to the DOJ this time.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-07 17:40:45]

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: enilria
Posted 2013-01-07 17:51:42 and read 13057 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 34):
I'm scratching my head about those two as well. I could maybe make a case for RDU, but CMH is a puzzle to me.

Didn't Skybus fly CMH-TTN? The recently scheduling director at F9 previously worked for Skybus. The VP of planning started Shuttle America flying out of TTN.

Quoting rampart (Reply 35):
I still don't know why COS didn't work, it's their own (the customers) darn fault -- not the airline's -- for not using what surveys and market research seemed to show would work.

Because DEN is dirt cheap and has 40 flights to LAX practically instead of 3/week.

Quoting iowaman (Reply 36):
Makes me wonder with DEN having connecting feed and an FF base if TTN-ATL can work. Of course F9 won't have the competition on TTN-ATL though.

I actually think if F9 survives until WN massively shrinks ATL in ~2014 there is an opportunity to do what NK is doing in DFW. Hard for DL to deal with 4/week ops against their 10 flights. If they match it hurts DL more.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 41):
I bet that DL will retaliate with both TTN-ATL and TTN-DTW within one week from now

I'm betting ATL.

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 44):
Hope TTN pans out, wishing nothing but success for them, its a nice airline. I have to wonder though with all the expansion NK is doing at DFW if maybe they missed the boat on that one by having a southern tier hub? DFW is proving to be good for NK.

They did, but they was a flier. FL tried a DFW focus and it died. Timing is everything. AA is weak.

Quoting mariner (Reply 50):

It is arguably possible that the presence of Delta would bring a whole other level of passengers to TTN.

Oh great for TTN, but DL retaliation is historically bad for F9. Must we list all the times they have run from DL after sticking the tiger with a poker? If you are going to run then don't poke.

Quoting mariner (Reply 50):
IF it happens, I wouldn't rule out Frontier going to the DOJ this time.

Do they even care any more? They seem asleep at the switch. What UA did to VX at EWR was horrible.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: gustywinds
Posted 2013-01-07 17:56:41 and read 12899 times.

I'm not able to book TTN-MDW-DEN on the web site. When I enter TTN in the departure drop down it only offers the non stops from TTN. I was told that F9 is cutting all 'connecting' cities except for DEN, even though I believe TTN-DEN via DTW and MDW should be an exception. Passengers were able to make connections in markets such as IAH, but even that was stopped. As soon as RHI stopped, MKE was stopped as a connecting point. I know of no cities except for DEN that F9 allows connections in including COS and MCI. I assume they believe there is more revenue with non stops vs. connections.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: Flytravel
Posted 2013-01-07 18:09:08 and read 12859 times.

I think it chose CMH it because it views CMH as a gateway to Ohio, like RDU to North Carolina. RDU is fine because there is demand partially stimulated by low fares recently by WN there. Pax are able to visit home after moving down there either because of lower cost of living and/or tech and pharma jobs down there. But the gateway to Ohio via CMH is lame, unless there is a great case for people driving to Cleveland or Cincy after reaching CMH.

I don't think DL will retaliate on ATL. It'd be wasteful for them to open a station just for this purpose. NK has a summer ACY-ATL flight as well, and routes 1-stop via Florida the rest of the year. WN could launch an ISP-ATL but it probably will wait to see on LGA-ATL. I doubt DL will open stations here and there just for that single leisure flight by an LCC.

[Edited 2013-01-07 18:15:02]

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-07 18:16:08 and read 12805 times.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 41):
I bet that DL will retaliate with both TTN-ATL and TTN-DTW within one week from now, with ATL on the CR7 or CR9 and DTW on the CR2, and both with 2x daily frequencies
Quoting mariner (Reply 50):
While I'm obviously concerned about a potential Delta retaliation, I'm not convinced the result would be what you suggest.

Let DL come. I ask myself would I fly on a CR7/CR9 if I had the option of a A319/A320 with six day a week service F9 gives me six reasons not too fly DL. I and I'm sure there are others like me who think DL would have to come with equitable equipment to be a threat. And then their are those cool animal tails vs some blah blue and red.

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 45):
I'm kind of surprised they aren't going to do TTN-BOS

I suspect bad blood still exists between F9 and Massport. Given the F9 ULCC model as of lately I would think ORH (Worcester, MA) would take precedence over BOS with that said ORH is also managed by Massport. (reading between the lines) I don't see it happening.

[Edited 2013-01-07 19:25:53]

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-07 18:32:05 and read 12719 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 54):
Let DL come. I ask myself would I fly on a CR7/CR9 if I had the option of a A319/A320 with six day a week service F9 gives me six reasons not too fly DL.

DL gives many people 30-40 additional reasons to fly DL out of TTN. Connecting cities, try to fly F9 TTN to SLC, LAX, LAS, PHX, IAH, DFW, HOU, LIT and the list goes on. I would much prefer flying Frontier for there much better service and the fact that DL would leave if F9 wasn't there but I can't get to any of those cities on F9 via TTN.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-01-07 18:39:14 and read 12678 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 54):

"I am surprised we haven't seen BTV seasonal in that B6 is leaving the market this Spring."

Do you have any sources to confirm this? AFAIK, B6 recently cut the BTV-MCO flight, but that's it. I'm not saying you're wrong, I have just never seen any evidence of this happening.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-07 18:51:55 and read 12612 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 51):
Oh great for TTN, but DL retaliation is historically bad for F9. Must we list all the times they have run from DL after sticking the tiger with a poker? If you are going to run then don't poke.

I thought I'd already listed most of 'em. I didn't include MEM because that was (slightly) less direct.

Quoting enilria (Reply 51):
Do they even care any more? They seem asleep at the switch. What UA did to VX at EWR was horrible.

The DOJ? If a complaint is made they have to follow it up.

Even if they disallow it - as they did with Frontier v. United at DEN - the complaint itself can have the desired effect, or did in that case.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-07 18:59:01 and read 12572 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 51):
Didn't Skybus fly CMH-TTN? The recently scheduling director at F9 previously worked for Skybus.

I'm not aware that Skybus flew into TTN. I believe they did fly CMH-SWF.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-07 19:34:24 and read 12398 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 55):
DL gives many people 30-40 additional reasons to fly DL out of TTN. Connecting cities, try to fly F9 TTN to SLC, LAX,

I'm not sure I would fly TTN-ATL on any carrier just to connect West when I could fly out of PHL to go almost due West. I might try the TTN-MDW-DEN if DEN was my final destination.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 56):
BTV-MCO flight, but that's it. I'm not saying you're wrong,

Citing the proverbial brain fart I am wrong it was in fact B6 BTV-MCO flight. BTV/MCO is still accessible via JFK. I have edited my post and removed that particular statement. BTV came to light as a wishlist city not to long after F9 established a focus city at MCO.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-01-07 19:45:20 and read 12323 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 59):

Lol brainfarts at it again!   It wouldn't shock me though if we did eventually see MCO-BTV.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: KarlB737
Posted 2013-01-07 19:45:23 and read 12367 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 1):
there is no press release but some info can be found scattered on the website

Press Release: Frontier Airlines

Frontier Airlines Announces Expansion In Trenton

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/fronti...s-expansion-trenton-160000607.html

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: cessna2
Posted 2013-01-07 19:56:51 and read 12281 times.

http://rdublog.com/2013/01/07/the-an...-frontier-returns-to-rdu-in-april/
Official news release from RDU

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: ERJ170
Posted 2013-01-07 20:00:51 and read 12253 times.

Here's hoping they at least learned something and offer DEN service to the new stations.. I just can't fathom how they could offer service to an out station but not their hub...

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: rampart
Posted 2013-01-07 20:40:37 and read 12110 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 51):
Because DEN is dirt cheap and has 40 flights to LAX practically instead of 3/week.

I know. But how much do you fly to COS? I can't be the 1 in 700,000 who prefer COS to DEN, because that would mean 699,999 people who use COS are doing so at gunpoint? I'm transfering in DEN to go to COS on Friday, in fact. Unless it's literally hundreds of dollars cheaper at DEN, I save that much on car rental, travel time, mileage, parking, tolls, etc. And heck, it's convenient. I read the IFlyCOS advertisements, and believed them, and they were right. (TTN should do the same.)

We know at one point COS supported 5 million passengers. Somewhere between that outrageous amount, and the current 700,000, there is bleed to be recaptured from DEN, and market to be stimulated. Even if the Colorado Springers (?) can't see the advantage, what about the people who go to COS as a destination, like me? Back when Allegiant was running that guessing contest, "what is our next West focus?", based on a city they already served, I seriously thought it was COS, when it ended up being Los Angeles or something like that.

I forget what portion of DEN's O&D traffic is from COS, but something like half of COS's catchment drives to DEN. Some clever airline is going to get some of that back some day.

But I digress. Perhaps the greater density of NJ along with the greater highway and airport hassles of EWR and PHL will turn the trick for TTN.

-Rampart

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: uncgso
Posted 2013-01-07 20:54:15 and read 12060 times.

seems to me GSO-TTN would have been the pick over RDU ... 1. F9 already serves GSO, and 2. this route has been operated in the past with Eastwind and Shuttle America ... im assuming GSO-MCO is doing ok? or can we expect that to be cut in favor of RDU ... seems to me they could have pulled from RDU & CLT by concentrating at GSO but what do i know ...

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: jporterfi
Posted 2013-01-07 21:14:23 and read 11981 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 13):
Will B6 or DL react? I think DL in TTN-ATL is almost a lock. Surprised they chose that one. DL has flown it before I think.

There seem to be a lot of people suggesting that DL will start ATL-TTN as a result. I wouldn't think the market for two airlines exists on this route, especially with DL already serving PHL, EWR, JFK, and LGA from ATL. I'll see how F9 does on it (and how DL does if it starts the route) before making any real judgments though.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2013-01-07 21:55:41 and read 11856 times.

At this point I think frontier is willing to try anything as long as its less than daily

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-07 22:02:04 and read 11875 times.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 67):
At this point I think frontier is willing to try anything as long as its less than daily

It seems to be working.

Republic just raised the Frontier margins for Q4, and RJET stock had a $2 bump last week, to a two year high, at least partly, if not entirely, because of that.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: PHLwok
Posted 2013-01-07 22:47:33 and read 11754 times.

This will certainly be an interesting experiment to watch. For one, it will require heavy marketing-very few people in the area know much about the airport or even exactly where it is, and those who do have the impression it's just a turboprop/private aircraft airport. Down in Philly, where most people aren't aware of ILG or ACY (less so) because of the lack of service, even though they're close to major highways, there isn't much awareness of TTN either in spite of its close proximity to I-95 just over the NJ border.

Some of the destinations make sense, such as the southern markets, and if you look at ACY, NK is able to sustain some routes out of there, which has a lower surrounding population density than TTN does. DTW and CMH do not make sense to me, and the low frequencies preclude much business travel on any of these routes. RDU might actually work for business travel - lots of corporations around RDU and in the US 1 corridor near Princeton - but with lower frequencies I doubt it.

I hope it works, but I'm honestly not too optimistic.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-01-08 03:30:32 and read 11490 times.

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 66):

Can't say DL won't retaliate, but logically they shouldn't here. Less than daily service in markets that make no sense. If DL already served TTN, is say fine. But opening a station is not without cost. Contract employees can be used but still is it worth the trouble. You should respond to threats smartly. Is the threat a long term viable and strategic threat? If not, why bother?

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-01-08 03:35:12 and read 11524 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 55):

Delta failed on ATL-TTN for the same reason network carriers fail in places like TOL, SLE and RFD. Pax prefer to drive to the nearby hub and fly nonstop rather than take the 2 daily flights that connect. TTN-BOS did much better because it was local traffic.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: freakyrat
Posted 2013-01-08 04:20:33 and read 11462 times.

Sure opening a station is not without cost's but the airport sometimes bears the brunt of these startup costs and offers other incentives to get the service. F9 uses contract employees at my original hometown SBN for their DEN flight and they are from DGS who is already there handling all the Delta Connection flights and others so in this case it is a win-win situation for everybody.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-01-08 05:58:13 and read 11368 times.

Quoting freakyrat (Reply 72):

While TTN can't stop DL from starting service, I doubt they'll offer incentives to them so they can run off F9.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: ScottB
Posted 2013-01-08 08:31:47 and read 11173 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 73):
While TTN can't stop DL from starting service, I doubt they'll offer incentives to them so they can run off F9.

True, but if they are offering incentives to F9 to add service at TTN, equal or comparable incentives by law must be offered to other carriers. That isn't to say that TTN is offering F9 any incentives.

Quoting rampart (Reply 64):
I can't be the 1 in 700,000 who prefer COS to DEN, because that would mean 699,999 people who use COS are doing so at gunpoint? I'm transfering in DEN to go to COS on Friday, in fact. Unless it's literally hundreds of dollars cheaper at DEN, I save that much on car rental, travel time, mileage, parking, tolls, etc. And heck, it's convenient.

COS may be more convenient in terms of drive time, parking cost, and avoiding tolls, but all those factors are significantly diminished by the infrequent service F9 was offering. It doesn't matter that COS saves 90 minutes over DEN (for a non-stop, at least) when F9 doesn't fly non-stop to/from COS on the day you want. A transfer at DEN saves no time at all over driving when you factor in minimum connection times and the time needed for the flight itself -- let alone the potential for sitting several hours at DEN after missing a connection due to a delay.

Quoting rampart (Reply 64):
We know at one point COS supported 5 million passengers. Somewhere between that outrageous amount, and the current 700,000, there is bleed to be recaptured from DEN, and market to be stimulated

The issue with respect to Frontier and COS is that they need to achieve higher segment revenues at COS than they would otherwise at DEN -- or there's no point in offering the service from COS. Right now, off-peak DEN-LAX non-stops price out $20 higher than the COS-LAX non-stops -- which says to me that the capacity is better deployed for F9 at DEN since it would also strengthen the hub operation.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 54):
Given the F9 ULCC model as of lately I would think ORH (Worcester, MA) would take precedence over BOS with that said ORH is also managed by Massport.

ORH-TTN would be EMPTY, especially with B6 offering BOS-EWR/PHL. Worcester and the surrounding communities aren't particularly wealthy and ORH has serious highway access issues.

Quoting mariner (Reply 50):
IF it happens, I wouldn't rule out Frontier going to the DOJ this time.

There are limitations to what F9 can do while still under the RAH umbrella, since I'm sure BB would like to keep the Delta Connection flying performed by RP.

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 45):
I'm kind of surprised they aren't going to do TTN-BOS. Seems like it would offer nice feed at least the Florida markets.

Relying on BOS-TTN to feed TTN-Florida is problematic since B6 would compete aggressively with its non-stops. TTN-Florida needs to work on O&D.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-08 09:55:56 and read 11058 times.

Quoting uncgso (Reply 65):
seems to me GSO-TTN would have been the pick over RDU ... 1. F9 already serves GSO

You would think with 67 miles between RDU and GSO they would have gone with GSO for no other reason than to curtail new station cost. I'm beginning to think it has less to do about RDU and more about building up TTN.

The only thing I can think of which tie TTN and RDU together are well known college towns/regions. I would think RDU would want to fly to MCO more than TTN . I guess North Carolinian's of the area have a 67 mile segway depending on which way they want to travel at least on F9.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-01-08 09:57:01 and read 11045 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 74):
True, but if they are offering incentives to F9 to add service at TTN, equal or comparable incentives by law must be offered to other carriers. That isn't to say that TTN is offering F9 any incentives.

Is that true? If it is a direct passenger subsidy yes, like ICT did for FL. But is that true for a ticket bank, advertising, fuel taxes, landing fees? Allegiant gets those breaks at airports, I am not sure that those same packages are offered to other carriers are Allegiant airports.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: PHLBOS
Posted 2013-01-08 10:01:28 and read 11047 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 74):
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 45):
I'm kind of surprised they aren't going to do TTN-BOS. Seems like it would offer nice feed at least the Florida markets.

Relying on BOS-TTN to feed TTN-Florida is problematic since B6 would compete aggressively with its non-stops. TTN-Florida needs to work on O&D.

Not to mention the fact that B6 will be offering PHL-BOS later this year. Which, from a fare standpoint at least, makes TTN-BOS competitive but not as attractive.

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 66):
There seem to be a lot of people suggesting that DL will start ATL-TTN as a result. I wouldn't think the market for two airlines exists on this route, especially with DL already serving PHL, EWR, JFK, and LGA from ATL.

If memory serves, the last time DL/OH served TTN alone it did horribly; the main reason(s) being that the service was poorly advertised/marketed and the service was not competitively priced. DL was charging 3 to 4 times as much on TTN-ATL that they were w/relatively nearby PHL-ATL. Their (DL/OH) service out of ILG experienced a similar fate.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 71):
Delta failed on ATL-TTN for the same reason network carriers fail in places like TOL, SLE and RFD. Pax prefer to drive to the nearby hub and fly nonstop rather than take the 2 daily flights that connect. TTN-BOS did much better because it was local traffic.

As w/TTN, DL Connection services to those airports weren't competitively priced as well. While there are some that might pay a little more for the convenience of a smaller airport; they're not going to pay 2, 3 or 4 times more for such. This is a common problem w/many legacy carriers (not just DL) that offer services at smaller airports; they price the fares as if there's not another airport within 100 to 150 miles.

With regards to DL/OH's TTN-BOS; I'm not sure how that route was priced but when they offered the service circa 2006-2007, FL was still competing w/US on PHL-BOS then (and the fares reflected such). If OH's TTN-BOS fare was significantly higher than FL/US' PHL-BOS; there's the main reason why it failed.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-08 10:08:41 and read 11039 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 74):
True, but if they are offering incentives to F9 to add service at TTN, equal or comparable incentives by law must be offered to other carriers. That isn't to say that TTN is offering F9 any incentives.

If TTN is offering Frontier incentives, they are mightily disguised.

There have been well-reported meetings with the Freeholders, in which the airport has laid out the deal with Frontier - and the amount of money it expects to earn from Frontier. I haven't seen one word about the airport giving money to Frontier.

There may be "disguised" subsidies, but I'd be surprised if the airport is telling fibs to the Freeholders, who control the purse strings.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-08 10:09:29]

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: ScottB
Posted 2013-01-08 10:36:16 and read 10960 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 76):
If it is a direct passenger subsidy yes, like ICT did for FL. But is that true for a ticket bank, advertising, fuel taxes, landing fees? Allegiant gets those breaks at airports, I am not sure that those same packages are offered to other carriers are Allegiant airports.

The issue boils down to who offers the subsidy. In the case of ICT, the subsidies to FL weren't offered by the airport or its operator -- IIRC the state or the county did it. The subsidies/breaks given to G4 haven't been such a big issue since they've been adding new service in locations others haven't.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 75):
The only thing I can think of which tie TTN and RDU together are well known college towns/regions. I would think RDU would want to fly to MCO more than TTN

I suspect F9 has little interest in RDU-MCO with WN serving it 3 times daily and DL Connection once daily on the CR9.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-08 10:53:41 and read 10952 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 34):
I'm scratching my head about those two as well. I could maybe make a case for RDU, but CMH is a puzzle to me.

Having heard from chums in the area, I'm not scratching my head anymore.

Up until now, the TTN routes have been about taking leisure pax from TTN. This summer schedule may be about taking leisure pax to TTN.

It's reasonably close to Manhattan (big for Frontier in summer), closer to PHL (which was big for Frontier in summer) and near to ACY, which draws at least some summer traffic. Trenton - at least Princeton - gets a few tourists as well, although I doubt many go the area just to visit Princeton.

So even though Frontier hasn't (to my knowledge) announced any of these routes as as seasonal, some of them, or the number of frequencies, may prove to be.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2013-01-08 10:56:04 and read 10924 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 75):
The only thing I can think of which tie TTN and RDU together are well known college towns/regions

the pharmaceutical industry but frontier schedule is probably not acceptable for business people. I wonder if cities like RDU CMH and MSY are offering something for service to a new city? Could explain why they are willing to try them

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-08 11:03:15 and read 10916 times.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 81):
he pharmaceutical industry but frontier schedule is probably not acceptable for business people.

As above, I don't think Frontier is primarily looking for business pax - a bonus if they get some, perhaps, but not the core.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: PHLLAX
Posted 2013-01-08 11:28:34 and read 10883 times.

One thing to remember is that David "call me Dave" Siegel is now running the show. His previous employs were at US and COX/ExpressJet, both of which have huge operations almost equidistant from TTN. I wouldn't be surprised if these new routes are the more high yielding routes from both EWR and PHL, and F9 is just trying to cash in on the people who are fed up with both airports and are willing to try something new.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-08 11:45:22 and read 10857 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 79):
I suspect F9 has little interest in RDU-MCO with WN serving it 3 times daily

I checked WN fares from PHL (closest airport to TTN) to all five cities F9 announced yesterday which are also served by WN. WN has not reduced their fares to any of them as mid-morning today which tells me they don't see less than daily service offered in the intro period a threat.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: EWRandMDW
Posted 2013-01-08 12:04:46 and read 10799 times.

About 5 years ago I spent nearly 10 months doing consulting work for a biopharma company in NJ near Trenton. I would have loved it if there was service back to Chicago from TTN I could take to have more frequent weekends at home, but I had to either quit early on Fridays and drive to EWR or down to PHL or quit on time and hope I made it in time for the last flight of the day. Either choice was a pain of gigantic proportions, 60 - 90 minutes to go ~ 50 miles depending on time of day and volume of traffic. Before anyone says it, yes, there is a train from Trenton/Hamilton/Princeton Jct to the EWR Airport stop and one from either Trenton or West Trenton to PHL with Center City Philly connection, but I needed my car to drive to any station and where was I going to park for several days? I don't think any station offered multiple day parking at that time.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: DeltaRules
Posted 2013-01-08 13:57:26 and read 10778 times.

CMH just posted this on their Facebook:

http://myemail.constantcontact.com/F...soid=1101853711549&aid=sCmVHCauzh8

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 2):
F9 doesnt even fly from MDW, RDU or CMH do they?

F9 inherited CMH from YX. For a time, they were flying to MCI using E-190s and MKE using ERJs, but closed the station in 2012. So it hasn't been closed for long; in fact, I think the ticket counter they were using is still Frontier green!

[Edited 2013-01-08 14:35:19]

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: ScottB
Posted 2013-01-08 14:28:08 and read 10735 times.

Quoting EWRandMDW (Reply 85):
I would have loved it if there was service back to Chicago from TTN I could take to have more frequent weekends at home, but I had to either quit early on Fridays and drive to EWR or down to PHL or quit on time and hope I made it in time for the last flight of the day.

But from looking at the schedule, how would a flight departing TTN at 10:35 AM have worked any better for you than the existing options from EWR/PHL?

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-08 16:56:42 and read 10583 times.

Quoting uncgso (Reply 65):
Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 71):
Delta failed on ATL-TTN for the same reason network carriers fail in places like TOL, SLE and RFD. Pax prefer to drive to the nearby hub and fly nonstop rather than take the 2 daily flights that connect. TTN-BOS did much better because it was local traffic.

It also could be that without competition network carriers charge $$$ for flights in to places like TTN, With multiple or possibly low-cost carriers to keep fares down, I think that it might work.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: AVLAirlineFreq
Posted 2013-01-08 17:14:42 and read 10546 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 75):
You would think with 67 miles between RDU and GSO they would have gone with GSO for no other reason than to curtail new station cost. I'm beginning to think it has less to do about RDU and more about building up TTN.

The only thing I can think of which tie TTN and RDU together are well known college towns/regions. I would think RDU would want to fly to MCO more than TTN . I guess North Carolinian's of the area have a 67 mile segway depending on which way they want to travel at least on F9.

There are significant pharmaceutical businesses in both areas. But that being said...

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 81):
the pharmaceutical industry but frontier schedule is probably not acceptable for business people. I wonder if cities like RDU CMH and MSY are offering something for service to a new city? Could explain why they are willing to try them

I agree with this. I don't see this doing particularly well with business travel due to the limited schedule.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: DeltaRules
Posted 2013-01-08 17:20:03 and read 10546 times.

What I'd like to know is with SEA, SAN, and SFO unserved and hopes to lure in VX and/or AS, as well as hopes of trans-Atlantic service in the future, why would CMH be dangling money to F9 to fly to Trenton, New Jersey? Is it sort of a "You scratch my back (F9 returns to CMH), I'll scratch yours (feed for their new TTN operation)" deal?

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-01-08 18:42:35 and read 10388 times.

Quoting DeltaRules (Reply 90):

Cambridge will never have nonstop to SEA and SAN. SFO is possible but unlikely.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-01-08 18:43:50 and read 10391 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 91):

Stupid idiotic iPhone. I type CMH and get Cambridge???

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-08 18:49:23 and read 10388 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 92):

Stupid idiotic iPhone. I type CMH and get Cambridge???

Stupid idiotic bobloblaw, the forums have edit post for a reason.  

See I misspelled your name and I edited my post

[Edited 2013-01-08 18:51:23]

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2013-01-08 18:51:24 and read 10408 times.

F9 DTW-TTN .....????? 3x per week, and mostly middle-of-the-day flights
I'm going to venture to guess this route has an average load factor below 40%.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-08 19:45:27 and read 10290 times.

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 94):
F9 DTW-TTN .....????? 3x per week, and mostly middle-of-the-day flights
I'm going to venture to guess this route has an average load factor below 40%.

I'm puzzled why middle-of-the-day flights would matter too much to leisure pax?

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2013-01-08 20:38:48 and read 10207 times.

I am thrilled to see such a great little airport gain service back! I use to eat at the little cafe above and watch the planes was pre security so you didnt even need a ticket! Free parking is huge and walk to plane convenience!

Trenton is so interesting i do think this is a market where there is potential I personally question the allegiant model in a non tourist routes especially in such a crowded area where people are use to frequency and traffic will make lots of people miss flights. I think a spirit type model would be more appropriate ULCC but still mostly daily service for Trenton. Also i dont think the MCO experiment is really over yet....why branch out to a whole new part of the county? TTN wasnt going anywhere those gates would have sat empty. I just don't like the so many routes and so low frequency plan. Florida has real potential and the most realistic to work in the total copying of Allegiant they are trying to pull off.

So whats the deal with MCO? I dont even understand the MCO plan yet no less why TTN is all of a sudden such a major spotlight?

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-08 20:48:12 and read 10226 times.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 96):
So whats the deal with MCO? I dont even understand the MCO plan yet no less why TTN is all of a sudden such a major spotlight?

The new route map might give you a clue. DEN is the only "big dot" but TTN and MCO get a bigger typeface.

http://www.flyfrontier.com/plan-book.../route-map/frontier-route-map.ashx

Frontier always drops a lot of snowbird service - to Florida, Mexico and the Caribbean - in April, and those aircraft help fund TTN.

But the TTN schedule is a summer schedule and not all those (non-Florida) routes may stay through the winter, or not at the same frequency. So - in the winter - they can either be used for more TTN-Florida (and other places) or be used to fund MCO.

It's putting the fleet where it is of the most value. This seasonality and low frequency are two of the pillars of the restructure.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-08 20:52:19]

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: IllinoisMan
Posted 2013-01-08 21:49:30 and read 10128 times.

This is, what, about the 6th airline to attempt scheduled passenger service from TTN? I hope F9 is getting a state or county grant/subsidy/tax credit to start this service because TTN's history of commercial air service is littered with failed attempts.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 71):
Delta failed on ATL-TTN for the same reason network carriers fail in places like TOL, SLE and RFD. Pax prefer to drive to the nearby hub and fly nonstop rather than take the 2 daily flights that connect.


Agreed. Say what you want about the free parking, but depending on where you live driving out to TTN with gas and tolls and the extra travel time is probably not worth it.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-08 22:12:45 and read 10121 times.

Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 98):
This is, what, about the 6th airline to attempt scheduled passenger service from TTN?

Oh, give Frontier a bit more credit that that. According to NJ.com, 14 airlines have failed to establish themselves at TTN.

http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2...cer_county_freeholders_to_v_1.html

"Streamline was the latest addition to a list of 14 airlines that have failed to establish a permanent presence at the small airport since 1983."

 

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-08 22:31:33 and read 10091 times.

Re: IL man and driving
F9 doesn't expect people to drive further to use TTN. They are aiming for people like me who live closer to TTN. I'm 30 minutes closer to TTN then EWR and 45 minutes closer than PHL which I do use frequently to save money. Add Free parking and shorter checkin and security lines and I'd even pay a bit more (not much) to travel out of TTN especially if its nonstop. Even with connecting service vs non-stop I'd rather connect and spend my saved time relaxing in an airport on my connection then spend it waiting in line to check my bag, driving more in worse traffic and waiting for and riding o a shuttle or monorail from long term or off airport parking. In the connection regard I might not reflect a majority of people but f9 is going p2p nonstop routes anyway. If its just as cheap cheaper or even a few bucks more and nonstop, I'd jump at the chance to fly F9 . There are probably atleast 2 million people that live within 20 minutes of TTN as well

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: PHLwok
Posted 2013-01-08 22:44:12 and read 10070 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 100):
There are probably atleast 2 million people that live within 20 minutes of TTN as well

Realistically, the number is probably about half that - the total populations of Mercer County NJ and Bucks County PA in the 2010 Census were in the neighborhood of 1 million and many of them are more than 20 min away by car. But your point is valid - a lot of people live in reasonable driving distance of TTN. But how many know of this service and what the airport can do for them versus EWR or PHL? It's going to take heavy marketing to get this off the ground in any kind of sustainable manner - and incentivize F9 to increase frequencies.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-01-09 01:41:08 and read 10018 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 93):

Who are you the inventor of the iPhone? You call me stupid and idiotic and add a smiley face at the end????

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-09 02:07:02 and read 10010 times.

I was being sarcastic, you called your iPhone stupid and idiotic when it made a mistake I called you the same . Though I probably went a little too far with it. I apologize.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: rampart
Posted 2013-01-09 05:36:09 and read 9910 times.

Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 98):
but depending on where you live driving out to TTN with gas and tolls and the extra travel time is probably not worth it.

As opposed to driving to EWR or PHL? Like they have an advantage in that regard? Unless you live next door to EWR or PHL, and I've never tried to walk to an airport before.

-Rampart

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-09 05:41:09 and read 9908 times.

They are sponsoring the traffic report on news/talk radio station NJ 101.5 and billboards on the Turnpike near New Brunswick I believe. They also should be advertising on NJ Transit trains along the NE Corridor line and perhaps the light rail River Line. Other billboards especially in Princeton along Rt 1 would be a good idea too.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: PHLBOS
Posted 2013-01-09 06:10:47 and read 9871 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 99):
According to NJ.com, 14 airlines have failed to establish themselves at TTN.

And all those attempts failed for one of the following reasons:

1. Carrier was an unknown startup when it started service at TTN aka Fly-By-Night operator (Streamline, Boston & Maine Airways (aka PanAm #5280-whatever) being 2 examples).

2. Carrier, although somewhat established, did not have the longevity, cash reserves and/or a strong network to sustain the service during lean economic periods (Eastwind & the original Shuttle America).

3. Legacy carriers (mostly using regional partners/carriers) were charging top dollar fares; US Express & DL Connection were the worst offenders in this regard.

4. Timing & airport competition; routes to certain cities/regions failed when either the same carrier or a different carrier offered the same route out of PHL or EWR at either the same or a lower fare. Yes, EWR & PHL are delay-prone; but if the difference in fare (vs. TTN) is enough, people will just go to one of those 2 airports where there's more options.

As far as F9 is concerned, since they've been around for nearly 3 decades they might be able to make TTN work. Provided that it the fares are competitively priced and it has (or will soon establish) the ability to connect to the majority of its network. I haven't had a chance (nor time) to read through the various F9 threads, but don't they still have a small hub at MKE?

If TTN-DEN is not possible (due to the A319's take-off weight vs. TTN's short runway don't mix issue), TTN-MKE might be one possible answer.

Like I was stating about FL for the last decade regarding the need for a 2nd hub and the ability to work around WN (pre-merger) or at least co-exist w/them; IMHO, F9 might be wise to do similar.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-09 06:35:44 and read 9857 times.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 106):
but don't they still have a small hub at MKE?

Nope, just Orlando, Cancun, Denver. Best they could do is TTN-DEN (with a 45 minute stop). They already have a DEN-MDW-TTN flight with the same flight number thats 45 minutes in MDW but I don't think its bookable.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: Flytravel
Posted 2013-01-09 08:47:09 and read 9750 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 105):
They are sponsoring the traffic report on news/talk radio station NJ 101.5 and billboards on the Turnpike near New Brunswick I believe. They also should be advertising on NJ Transit trains along the NE Corridor line and perhaps the light rail River Line. Other billboards especially in Princeton along Rt 1 would be a good idea too.

Also I saw ads on the PA Turnpike.

Quoting mariner (Reply 80):

Up until now, the TTN routes have been about taking leisure pax from TTN. This summer schedule may be about taking leisure pax to TTN.

It's reasonably close to Manhattan (big for Frontier in summer), closer to PHL (which was big for Frontier in summer) and near to ACY, which draws at least some summer traffic.

It's still far from Manhattan. I'd think if someone from RDU wants a cheap fare to Manhattan, it'd be easier to fly B6 to JFK. Or from DTW, fly Spirit to LGA. I hope F9 doesn't get too swayed with TTN being in the New York CSA, that it is an airport for Manhattan.

I'm surprised also on DTW. Spirit flies low fares to LGA (year round) and ACY (seasonal). While the Spirit flight isn't enjoyable, it's daily and lands at an airport for ACY where there are more rental cars and hotels, and for LGA, directly into NYC. I'd chosen CLE where F9 is already opening a station for DEN service and there is no low fare/leisure VFR service around as close, than CMH or DTW.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: EWRandMDW
Posted 2013-01-09 08:57:43 and read 9726 times.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 108):
It's still far from Manhattan. I'd think if someone from RDU wants a cheap fare to Manhattan, it'd be easier to fly B6 to JFK. Or from DTW, fly Spirit to LGA. I hope F9 doesn't get too swayed with TTN being in the New York CSA, that it is an airport for Manhattan.

Shocking as it may be to believe, not everyone is interested in going to Manhattan! There are other places one can visit. And if one absolutely has to see the big city, there are many bus and rail options available to get one there!

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: jetsetter629
Posted 2013-01-09 09:09:42 and read 9713 times.

I booked TTN-MDW for $98 round trip this summer - they have my business!

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 108):
I'm surprised also on DTW.

If they are pulling leisure traffic, who is going to Detroit for a vacation??

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: iowaman
Posted 2013-01-09 09:09:50 and read 9705 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 107):
They already have a DEN-MDW-TTN flight with the same flight number thats 45 minutes in MDW but I don't think its bookable.

Interestingly enough it was bookable for a while (I had posted previously in this thread it was) but it appears to have been removed now. I suppose they don't want to deal with connecting pax in MDW and having to transfer bags and deal with missed connections.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: EWRandMDW
Posted 2013-01-09 09:30:47 and read 9679 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 107):
Best they could do is TTN-DEN (with a 45 minute stop). They already have a DEN-MDW-TTN flight with the same flight number thats 45 minutes in MDW but I don't think its bookable.
Quoting iowaman (Reply 111):
I suppose they don't want to deal with connecting pax in MDW and having to transfer bags and deal with missed connections.

The way I read it, the same plane is used DEN-MDW and MDW-TTN, so I don't understand why connecting pax and bag transfer issues come into play at all. What am I missing?

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-09 09:43:09 and read 9669 times.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 108):
It's still far from Manhattan. I'd think if someone from RDU wants a cheap fare to Manhattan, it'd be easier to fly B6 to JFK.

If someone wants to go only to Manhattan, then sure.

But - not everyone does. A family of four on a limited budget might want to see Manhattan and Philadelphia and go to the beach at Atlantic City.

Cranky Flier has a long and extremely positive article about it today:

http://crankyflier.com/2013/01/08/fr...sees-in-trenton-adds-more-flights/

"Frontier has thrown a lot of new routes out there in its quest to become an ultra low cost carrier. Many have failed, but there appears to be at least one gem that keeps getting more and more flights. That gem is Trenton. (And yes, this is probably the first time anyone has ever called Trenton a gem.) For the second time since service was first announced last August, Trenton has been expanded. This time it’s not the usual Florida leisure flying. We’re seeing big city flights.

That is the magic of Trenton."


He ends with:

"This is about getting friends and family back and forth to visit each other. Or its about the college kid going to visit Philly on a very tight budget. These are people who might drive today because the cost and time involved with a flight from Newark or Philly is prohibitive. It’s not about taking traffic from the other airports but rather it’s about stimulating new traffic in the ultra-price sensitive category.

Considering the expansion we’ve seen so far, it sounds like people are responding to the new service. I would imagine we’re going to see this get a lot bigger. Not every route will work, but Frontier has tapped into a real opportunity here."


I think he's right - not every route will work. But there's only one way to find out.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-09 10:14:04]

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: PMUA787
Posted 2013-01-09 10:14:11 and read 9615 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 7):
I'm wondering if F9 isn't "Throwing (crap) against the wall and seeing what sticks"

Well if they are into that style of route planning how about starting service out of OLM Olympia, WA? There is still a passenger terminal on the west side of the field.

We could use a South Sound alternative like what PAE will become for the North Sound.

OLM-DEN and LAS could work..

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2013-01-09 10:15:23 and read 9623 times.

Quoting jetsetter629 (Reply 110):
If they are pulling leisure traffic, who is going to Detroit for a vacation??

LOL yeah both directions those are two of the least vacation friendly cities in america! I think its more leisure as in i have family in michigan and moved to NJ etc things like that. I just question the low frequency plan when there are no other airlines to support the other days

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-09 10:51:55 and read 9597 times.

And now NJ.com throws its hat in the ring in an editorial with an over-enthusiastic headline:

http://www.nj.com/times-opinion/inde...ditorial_with_frontier_airlin.html

"Editorial: With Frontier Airlines expansion, Trenton-Mercer Airport could become major travel hub"

Hub? Well - maybe. Major? Doubt it. But it goes on to discuss ways in which the airport can expand:

"That’s enough to inspire thoughts of expanding the airport and its amenities. County Executive Brian Hughes says Frontier’s service expansion will prompt a review of the airport terminal’s configuration and capacity.

In addition to evaluating how much passenger space is needed, airport and county officials will look at low-cost means to best utilize the entirety of the terminal — including the-now vacant restaurant area. A secondary parking lot is already under construction.

The growth — both announced and anticipated — is good news for the county’s economy as well as travelers."


They would need to do something about the runway length first, and they have committed not to do that.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-09 10:56:17]

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: steeler83
Posted 2013-01-09 12:59:43 and read 9495 times.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 108):
Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 105):They are sponsoring the traffic report on news/talk radio station NJ 101.5 and billboards on the Turnpike near New Brunswick I believe. They also should be advertising on NJ Transit trains along the NE Corridor line and perhaps the light rail River Line. Other billboards especially in Princeton along Rt 1 would be a good idea too.Also I saw ads on the PA Turnpike.

I keep hearing ads on W.O.G.L. In fact, just this morning I heard an ad for "Frontier Airlines flights leaving from Trenton to Midway, Raleigh, Boston, Detroit, Atlanta, and more."

I'm excited for TTN and Frontier. I think the market is definitely there for a second Philly-area airport considering how PHL is bursting at the seams, and TTN, given its already existing infrastructure, would do just fine for the NJ-area residents who wish to fly but do not wish to schlep to EWR or PHL and depart from a delay-prone airport...

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-09 13:46:07 and read 9426 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 105):
and billboards on the Turnpike near New Brunswick I believe. They also should be advertising on NJ Transit trains along the NE Corridor line and perhaps the light rail River Line. Other billboards especially in Princeton along Rt 1 would be a good idea too

As would a State specific (NJ in this case) bi or tri-fold brochure showing F9 route map and or timetable for all service offered by F9 at Interstate state line visitor/welcome stations . Thousands of motorist stop and use these these resources daily who are likely to fly at some point.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: Flytravel
Posted 2013-01-09 14:34:17 and read 9360 times.

Quoting jetsetter629 (Reply 110):
If they are pulling leisure traffic, who is going to Detroit for a vacation??

VFR would probably apply.

Quoting mariner (Reply 113):
A family of four on a limited budget might want to see Manhattan and Philadelphia and go to the beach at Atlantic City.

Ok that could work. There are also some destinations right east of I-195 including the shore in Ocean and Monmouth Counties and the Jackson Outlets.

And, I'm not sure of is F9's marketing with Princeton to TTN. I suppose Princeton is supposed to upscale Trenton, but it doesn't really add much to the destination for people flying into TTN. Until frequencies are improved, traffic from Princeton won't use it for business. If it is going to associate, Trenton-Philadelphia would associate it to one big city better, like Baltimore-Washington. Attaching Princeton to the TTN name adds about 10 more perceived minutes to the distance for those in PA and So. NJ. For those from North Jersey, Princeton doesn't add any closer proximity feel since the town is it's out of the way from the Turnpike and eastern NJ.

[Edited 2013-01-09 14:35:15]

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: rampart
Posted 2013-01-09 14:43:52 and read 9355 times.

Quoting jetsetter629 (Reply 110):
If they are pulling leisure traffic, who is going to Detroit for a vacation??

I would think it's the other way around in that instance (and probably for CMH and MDW, too). I hear laughter. Does anyone fly to Newark, literally Newark, for leisure? No. How about Sanford? No. How about Oakland? No. They fly to those airports to go somewhere else desirable, nearby. As they would with TTN, which, as pointed out, is close to tourist draws in Philadelphia, the Jersey Shore, New York City, and the Delaware Valley.

-Rampart

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2013-01-09 14:52:33 and read 9344 times.

Ultimately ground transportation will make or break the success of these flights. In some cases it may make sense to fly into TTN, in other cases the accessibility and cost of ground transporation to the final destination could render it pointless to fly into TTN versus PHL, EWR, LGA, JFK.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: STT757
Posted 2013-01-09 14:55:20 and read 9345 times.

Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 98):
Agreed. Say what you want about the free parking, but depending on where you live driving out to TTN with gas and tolls and the extra travel time is probably not worth it.

New Jersey is a small State, TTN is not that far from any region of the State.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-09 15:12:15 and read 9326 times.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 119):
And, I'm not sure of is F9's marketing with Princeton to TTN. I suppose Princeton is supposed to upscale Trenton, but it doesn't really add much to the destination for people flying into TTN.

I think Princeton helps set Trenton more clearly in the travelling public's mind.

I don't think Frontier is looking for upscale Princeton traffic. It is never going to attract the wealthy alumni or the tenured professors - although some of those will do anything to a save a buck. I have a chum who is a professor there and she's meaner than Scrooge when it comes to travel. She has smiled sweetly on Frontier's arrival, but is cussin' that it doesn't fly to BOS because she's associated with the Fine Arts Museum there.

But Princeton is much more than that, quite apart from the thousands of students, it has a big workforce. It is also a tourist attraction in its own right, much as William and Mary is to PHF.

I don't know what the thinking is, but I like it. Maybe Frontier is trying to establish the "local" connections to the airline in the hope that people bond with it, much as Denver did. But I could be wrong..

In that vein, I think that Frontier start start TTN-NAS a couple of times a week in winter. Conceptually, at least, it would add to the that feeling of association - if not necessarily to the traffic. Princeton is called "Old Nassau," the college anthem is "Old Nassau" and the first building there is Nassau Hall.

But I don't run the airline and I'm surely not an expert in all aspects of commercial aviation. I do all this for fun.  

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-09 15:34:46 and read 9293 times.

Quoting jetsetter629 (Reply 110):

If they are pulling leisure traffic, who is going to Detroit for a vacation??

Nobody, its for people wanting to get out of Detroit  

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-09 15:52:33 and read 9292 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 123):
I think that Frontier start start TTN-NAS a couple of times a week in winter. Conceptually, at least, it would add to the that feeling of association - if not necessarily to the traffic

An ad that said "From Nassau Street to Nassau, Fly Frontier to the Bahamas at only $99 each way", perhaps???

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-09 15:58:33 and read 9267 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 125):
An ad that said "From Nassau Street to Nassau, Fly Frontier to the Bahamas at only $99 each way", perhaps???

Exactly. If you could work the Nassau Inn into that, I'd be in hog heaven.  

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: rampart
Posted 2013-01-09 17:54:27 and read 9228 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 123):
tenured professors - although some of those will do anything to a save a buck

Hey, I resemble that remark.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 121):
In some cases it may make sense to fly into TTN, in other cases the accessibility and cost of ground transporation to the final destination could render it pointless to fly into TTN versus PHL, EWR, LGA, JFK.

Good point, but I've found that smaller airports often have greater availability, than bigger airports, for rental vehicles during peak travel times, and almost always have cheaper rates.

I would think that the airport should consider making available -- by either some dedicated public transport, or by a private shuttle service -- some sort of bus link to the Trenton (and maybe even Princeton Jct.) train station, which has excellent Northeast Corridor Amtrak, SEPTA, NJTransit trains, and River Line light rail access.

-Rampart

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-09 18:26:20 and read 9202 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 126):
Exactly. If you could work the Nassau Inn into that, I'd be in hog heaven.

I got a million of them..how bout "From Hopewell to Bob Hope Intl..Burbank for $109 each way", and "From Lambertville to Lambert International...St Louis at $69 each way" "From West Windsor to Windsor Castle.." and my favorite (placed on I-95 near US-206 (5 miles from Exit 2).."Only 5 miles to the 8 Mile..Detroit for only $49 each way"

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2013-01-09 18:40:46 and read 9180 times.

Quoting rampart (Reply 127):
I would think that the airport should consider making available -- by either some dedicated public transport, or by a private shuttle service -- some sort of bus link to the Trenton (and maybe even Princeton Jct.) train station, which has excellent Northeast Corridor Amtrak, SEPTA, NJTransit trains, and River Line light rail access.

Access to Amtrak, SEPTA, and/or NJTransit would certainly help out TTN. If you are going to/from suburban Philadelphia or Jersey then automobile is really the most viable option. However, people going to Center City or into NYC don't want, don't need, or don't have a car. The cost of parking, let alone rental makes is not worthwhile.

TTN really isn't that great an option for those in the western suburbs, West Chester, Chester county area just simply for the drive across the region. Out there, BWI really becomes a more viable and cheaper option.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: Flytravel
Posted 2013-01-10 13:12:42 and read 8886 times.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 129):

TTN really isn't that great an option for those in the western suburbs, West Chester, Chester county area just simply for the drive across the region.

Actually it's not bad from the western suburbs. Road backup is more congested on 76, 476 and 95, than on 276 (Turnpike between King of Prussia and NJ border) usually. From Downington (the western most PA Turnpike exit that is still Philly region) and one can drive east, at times 75 to 80mph which can't be done on the other roads typically. All the roads get backed up, but I believe less severely on 276. An EZPass exit opened up recently in Malvern.

For outlying areas of Philly like Coatesville, F9 has kept some presence at MDT as well.

[Edited 2013-01-10 13:20:43]

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: steeler83
Posted 2013-01-10 13:26:53 and read 8885 times.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 130):
Actually it's not bad from the western suburbs. Road backup is more congested on 76, 476 and 95, than on 276 (Turnpike between King of Prussia and NJ border) usually. From Downington (the western most PA Turnpike exit that is still Philly region) and one can drive east, at times 75 to 80mph which can't be done on the other roads typically. All the roads get backed up, but I believe less severely on 276. An EZPass exit opened up recently in Malvern.

Yep, I am a Downingtown resident and know all about those roads, especially the new slip-ramp that opened near Malvern/Great Valley. Regarding the remarks about access to SEPTA, NJ Transit, etc, TTN is not far from the West Trenton SEPTA regional rail station (R3). As for me, I'm not sure if I'd consider the schlep out the Turnpike to TTN. Then again, I'm sure it's considerably better than subjecting myself to the 10 miles or so of torture that is US 322 from Glenn Mills to the I-95 interchange near Chester...

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2013-01-10 13:50:04 and read 8832 times.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 129):
Access to Amtrak, SEPTA, and/or NJTransit would certainly help out TTN

TTN will not be helped out at all by the trains. There is no access to TTN by the train and i dont think by mass transit. I have never seen a NJ Transit bus at the airport. The people who use TTN will be suburban people who TTN is an easy drive and parkign is free. That is who they can get .

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: rampart
Posted 2013-01-10 14:00:46 and read 8818 times.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 132):
TTN will not be helped out at all by the trains. There is no access to TTN by the train and i dont think by mass transit. I have never seen a NJ Transit bus at the airport. The people who use TTN will be suburban people who TTN is an easy drive and parkign is free. That is who they can get .

This is why I said:

Quoting rampart (Reply 127):
I would think that the airport should consider making available -- by either some dedicated public transport, or by a private shuttle service -- some sort of bus link to the Trenton (and maybe even Princeton Jct.) train station, which has excellent Northeast Corridor Amtrak, SEPTA, NJTransit trains, and River Line light rail access.

Want the airport to do well? Integrate it with the existing very good mass transit somehow. Certainly the free parking is great for the suburbanites (that would include me).

-Rampart

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: Flytravel
Posted 2013-01-10 14:24:13 and read 8797 times.

I think the service is still too infrequent for mass transit shuttles. But, how much would a taxi cost? It's listed as 5.4 to 6 miles from the main Trenton Transit Center, which has Septa, NJT and Amtrak, to TTN.

[Edited 2013-01-10 14:26:36]

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-10 16:30:58 and read 8719 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 123):
It is never going to attract the wealthy alumni or the tenured professors - although some of those will do anything to a save a buck.[/quote

[quote=rampart,reply=127]Hey, I resemble that remark.

The tenured frugal

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 129):
Quoting Flytravel (Reply 134):
I think the service is still too infrequent for mass transit shuttles.

Possibly enter some sort of agreement with www.megabus.com who offers direct service from Princeton to NYC currently nine times daily for $12 each way. Philly to Princeton is not yet served at least direct. Possibly a deviation could be coordinated on any of the fourteen daily trips between Philly and NYC. It looks like the fare is ranges from $6.50 - $11.50

Does anybody know the estimated cost of road tolls between Philly and TTN and NYC-TTN in a two axle vehicle? Of course many local use the E-Z pass option.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-10 17:46:43 and read 8642 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 135):

Does anybody know the estimated cost of road tolls between Philly and TTN and NYC-TTN in a two axle vehicle? Of course many local use the E-Z pass option.

Depending on which way one goes its between 6.50 and 8.00 on the NJ turnpike and $13.00 for the Lincoln Tunnel so between $19.50 and $21 in tolls alone not including the gas and rental costs

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2013-01-10 20:09:46 and read 8542 times.

Quoting steeler83 (Reply 131):
Yep, I am a Downingtown resident and know all about those roads, especially the new slip-ramp that opened near Malvern/Great Valley. Regarding the remarks about access to SEPTA, NJ Transit, etc, TTN is not far from the West Trenton SEPTA regional rail station (R3). As for me, I'm not sure if I'd consider the schlep out the Turnpike to TTN. Then again, I'm sure it's considerably better than subjecting myself to the 10 miles or so of torture that is US 322 from Glenn Mills to the I-95 interchange near Chester...

Yeah I'm very familar with the area as am regularly in the area and almost moved there a few years ago. I just hate the KOP area.

I was in and out of Chester country every other week (girl I dated long distance for a few years). When I was traveling for work, I'd fly into PHL or MDT. When I was flying on my own expense, or when we'd travel out on leisure, we would often use BWI.

When living out there, the question becomes drive to TTN (which may be somewhat closer, with limited options on F9) or drive to BWI to get nonstops to a much higher number of options/frequencies.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 136):
Depending on which way one goes its between 6.50 and 8.00 on the NJ turnpike and $13.00 for the Lincoln Tunnel so between $19.50 and $21 in tolls alone not including the gas and rental costs

Tolls are not the deal-breaker here. It is the cost of rental cars, and the cost of parking in NYC or even downtown Philadelphia. No one is going to fly to TTN, to rent a car, drive to Mahatten, and pay $50+ per day in parking.

Thus the TTN service is mostly for VFR traffic to/from suburban New Jersey and suburban Philadelphia. NYC is a long-shot based on logistical and practical matters.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2013-01-10 22:41:29 and read 8448 times.

Too much hassle to be worht it. After a taxi and decent train ticket the a

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 135):
Of course many local use the E-Z pass option.

ah yeah but they still need to pay a heavy toll LOL! They are not gonna pull people from the cities at TTN or anyone on mass transit this is a rediculous discusssion unless NJ Transit ads an airport bus which i cant see realistic with so few flights and so few days of the week on each route. The free parking is really the huge perk to sell TTN when EWR parking is so high. If you were gonna ride mass transit you should just use EWR or PHL both have great service then you would get the time and date you want. Its gonna have to be suburbanites which is totally fine there are millions in the area who could use TTN.

I think its gonna come down to how many find TTN on say kayak as a nearby option and are okay with the dates. As i said no other carrier at TTN hurts them in a weird way with this crazy schedule, no other carrier to fly the other direction when dates don't allign. At COS you would often see the cheapest carrier frontier there and a connection on united for example or delta on the way home and it was still a realistic option. Is this another one of frontiers bad not well thought out ideas or brilliant only time will tell. I really like the idea of florida and maybe daily to chicago but some of these will be cut. I personally am just confused on RDU and CMH seem like such long shots

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-10 22:54:21 and read 8434 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 135):
Possibly enter some sort of agreement with www.megabus.com who offers direct service from Princeton to NYC currently nine times daily for $12 each way.

If they think there's a buck to be made they'll jump on it - or someone will.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: steeler83
Posted 2013-01-11 13:22:25 and read 8260 times.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 138):
The free parking is really the huge perk to sell TTN when EWR parking is so high.

That's how the folks at Westmoreland County market LBE on top of the already dirt-cheap fares on NK.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-11 22:32:12 and read 8097 times.

I was considering taking a short trip to Chicago (with $49 fares why not) and it surprised me how expensive flights to the Windy City were? $350rt from PHL? Is this the year round price or is May a big month for Chicago? Even at $99 each way, I'm sure F9 could make money and fill planes.

BTW to be fair $49 fares are only on Tuesdays and Wednesdays it goes upto $69 on Friday and Sunday but still blows the crap out of the flights from PHL EWR is a more reasonable around $265 but that probably has to do with the $149 fares from Spirit out of LGA.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: Flytravel
Posted 2013-01-12 07:36:15 and read 8000 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 141):
EWR is a more reasonable around $265 but that probably has to do with the $149 fares from Spirit out of LGA.

Once Spirit started LGA-ORD, WN dropped fares on LGA/EWR-MDW. Why it did so on EWR-MDW is unclear to me. PHL-MDW used to be fared lower. Additionally, I've seen PHL-MDW-CMH fares lower than PHL-MDW fares. Just don't board the MDW-CMH segment. The PHL-MDW-CMH fares were set low once WN dropped out of PHL-CMH nonstop. The fares to CMH via MDW are lower than other routes through MDW, e.g. PHL-MDW-CLE/BUF.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-12 08:17:23 and read 7973 times.

WN:
PHL-CMH is the only reasonable fare at $104 some days (looking overall at the fare calender)
EWR-MDW is $141 almost $300 seems a bit steep And certainly doesn't hold a candle to NK's $149RT out of LGA . Though they are coming close to matching NK out of LGA with some $87 each way fares.

I'll take TTN-MDW for $69 (or even $49 tuesdays and wednesdays) and I can check bags too and have them arrive in the same city I'm going to   If F9 could get to 3 flights a day TTN-MDW they might be able to lure some business folks who have a travel budget they need to stick too (like my brother who works in Microsoft Sales Department). 10am flights aren't going to cut it for him I don't think though. Would need something like a 7-8am or 8:30am at the latest.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-12 12:56:21 and read 7867 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 143):
If F9 could get to 3 flights a day TTN-MDW they might be able to lure some business folks who have a travel budget they need to stick too (like my brother who works in Microsoft Sales Department).

I would be very surprised if Frontier goes for frequency. Eventually, perhaps, if MDW does well, but not yet.

I think mostly TTN needs a New England route. BOS is the obvious one, at least seasonally, but JetBlue's new 5 x daily BOS-PHL may - may - play against that.

But there may be others, at least seasonally.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: Flytravel
Posted 2013-01-12 20:24:05 and read 7707 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 144):
I would be very surprised if Frontier goes for frequency. Eventually, perhaps, if MDW does well, but not yet.

I think mostly TTN needs a New England route. BOS is the obvious one, at least seasonally, but JetBlue's new 5 x daily BOS-PHL may - may - play against that.

But there may be others, at least seasonally.

mariner

Maybe it'd attempt TTN-PVD or TTN-BOS, making sense if timed well for a day trip to BOS (i.e. early AM flight to PVD or BOS, and PM return).

[Edited 2013-01-12 20:38:45]

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-13 02:03:21 and read 7621 times.

Ok, even if the wont do frequency the flight has to be timed better has to be early on the way out and late evening on the way back 10am out and 11am back is a bit of a wierd thing but they are trying to do all these cities with 2 planes. But MDW should be a priority. Only 2 weeks from Monday till I experience TTN for myself.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-13 07:47:38 and read 7548 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 144):
I think mostly TTN needs a New England route.

I think an agreement with 9K to/from TTN to a handful of Hyannis Air dba Cape Air; New England cities would fit neatly if 9K existing contracts/code shares with B6 and UA allows it. 9K also has an agreement with AA to/from STL to some of the smaller communities in the heartland.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-13 09:22:34 and read 7503 times.

An Article from the Times of Trenton with some interesting statements and photos
http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2...rontier_airlines_to_make_tren.html

Wow TTN really does need that terminal modernization
http://media.nj.com/the-times/photo/2013/01/12103290-standard.jpg

I thought that TTN had a jetway, guess it can only be used for smaller jets
http://media.nj.com/the-times/photo/2013/01/12103292-standard.jpg

for All 19 shots from the Times of Trenton article
http://photos.nj.com/4506/gallery/fr...n-mercer_airport_112013/index.html

Another Shurz misspeak or a sign of things to come, last I checked F9 only served DEN out of PHL
"On Monday, while announcing additional routes to be added at Trenton-Mercer, Frontier also moved to cease domestic flights from Philadelphia International Airport. Shurz said the goal is to avoid having Frontier compete with itself to fill planes at both airports."

Not the end of NIMBYism but a move in the right direction.
Prunetti’s attempts to upgrade Trenton-Mercer for larger commercial flying operations were buffeted by intense community debate over the noise and other environmental pollution and traffic congestion that more air traffic would produce. Frontier may face the same obstacle, though the major group that opposed expanded Trenton-Mercer operations has since disbanded.

[Edited 2013-01-13 09:38:10]

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-01-13 12:02:38 and read 7372 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 147):
I think an agreement with 9K to/from TTN to a handful of Hyannis Air dba Cape Air; New England cities would fit neatly if 9K existing contracts/code shares with B6 and UA allows it

9K to Nantucket and MYV would be good in the summer. Small planes however see their CASM bottom quickly. TTN-New England might be too long for an optimal efficiency flight.

I still think TTN-BOS would work with 3-5 30-40 seat props per day.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-13 12:49:31 and read 7358 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 148):
An Article from the Times of Trenton with some interesting statements

Mr. Shurz statement caught my eye that TTN is a east coast base of operations. He fell short of using the term hub or focus city.
"The Denver-based airline flies the majority of its flights on routes originating from Denver International Airport, but it needs a base of operations on the East Coast, and Trenton fits perfectly, said Daniel Shurz"

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 148):
I thought that TTN had a jetway, guess it can only be used for smaller jets
http://media.nj.com/the-times/photo/2013/01/12103292-standard.jpg

This reminds me of the PHF airport a few years ago. It also mirrors a Air Mobility Command waiting area such as McGuire AFB in New Jersey.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 148):
Wow TTN really does need that terminal modernization
http://media.nj.com/the-times/photo/...d.jpg

I've seen worse.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 148):
Another Shurz misspeak or a sign of things to come, last I checked F9 only served DEN out of PHL

I believe the DEN-PHL flight was kabashed. I don't see it on the route map http://www.flyfrontier.com/plan-book/routes-schedules/route-map Philadelphia's who want to fly on F9 will be able to do so from TTN-MDW-DEN when the service is inaugurated

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: freakyrat
Posted 2013-01-13 13:30:46 and read 7301 times.

Looks like Frontier uses one of Allegiant's favorite style of ramps at TTN.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: point2point
Posted 2013-01-13 14:04:38 and read 7294 times.

Looking at an overhead Google map of TTN, I see that there is some vacant land SW of the main 6000' runway.

What are the possibilities that TTN could extent this runway another 500'? Or maybe even a 1000'?

I think that if TTN would ever be serious about actually having some decent commercial air service into the future, this runway length has to be taken into consideration and extended, as well as doing some work with the terminal. What is the furthest the runway will currently allow a commercial nonstop w/o restrictions? Are the NIMBYs in the area strong enough to make hay of any possible aspirations of TTN becoming a full fledged commercial airport moot?

This location of TTN seems ideal for commercial service, and F9 is hopefully getting a jump in there. Terminal work seems minor in comparison, but if the runway is somehow even now preventing a TTN-DEN nonstop w/o restrictions, and any extension of it is prevented, then it might be a difficult challenge, even for F9......

 

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-13 14:45:23 and read 7255 times.

Quoting point2point (Reply 152):
What are the possibilities that TTN could extent this runway another 500'? Or maybe even a 1000'?

At the moment - not high. The airport has publicly committed to not lengthening the runway:

http://www.state.nj.us/counties/mercer/departments/airport/faqs.html

"Is the airport expanding?

No. TTN is proposing to replace our functionally obsolete two gate terminal with a new, modern two gate facility. Our existing terminal, designed in the 1970s, is too small to allow for the adequate care and control of passengers. The retrieval and handling of luggage is equally troublesome. In addition, improvements must be performed to allow for the size and weight of new security screening equipment, mandated by the FAA. We will be upgrading and standardizing our taxiways to improve upon the high level of safety and efficiency we currently enjoy. Additional passenger parking and a new building to house maintenance and snow removal equipment are also planned.

We will not be lengthening any runways. We are improving the airport, not expanding it"


In view of Frontier's present success, I guess this could change but the Nimbys are a powerful voice at Trenton.

It is possible that they might extend the runway two or three hundred feet by replacing the EMAS extension, but the great fear of the locals is "larger" (and thus noisier) aircraft.

It is entirely possible that the present runway could allow flights to DEN - it;s longer than SNA - but there might have to be a payload hit.

At the same time. money talks, and Frontier will be bringing a deal of money in the area. We'll see.

They could make a start with a decent website for the airport, of course.  

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-13 14:53:40]

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: point2point
Posted 2013-01-13 15:01:05 and read 7217 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 153):
They could make a start with a decent website for the airport, of course.

Thanks for the above..... and this with the lack of even a website did catch my notice........

Quoting mariner (Reply 153):
It is entirely possible that the present runway could allow flights to DEN - it;s longer than SNA - but there might have to be a payload hit.

SNA gets benefit of the wind to DEN and is about 850 miles.......TTN is about twice as long to DEN and goes against the wind......

Too bad about the runway..... TTN priority I would think needs focus on lengthening the runway....... but then...... that's just my    and worth just about that.....


 

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-13 22:32:34 and read 7043 times.

Re: gentfromalaska and TTN-DEN
The TTN-MDW-DEN flight is ok for connections but the DEN-TTN leaves at 715am and is too early for connections.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: PHLBOS
Posted 2013-01-14 07:19:03 and read 6945 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 150):
Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 148):
Another Shurz misspeak or a sign of things to come, last I checked F9 only served DEN out of PHL

I believe the DEN-PHL flight was kabashed.

F9 dropped PHL-DEN a while ago. The only routes they currently serve out PHL are to CUN and Punta Cana; which are former-U5 (USA3000) routes and Apple Vacation destinations.

PHL-DEN non-stops are now only flown by WN, UA & US.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: PlaneAdmirer
Posted 2013-01-14 08:44:24 and read 6897 times.

Does anyone know if F9 is getting much cargo revenue out of TTN? I am wondering if there is high value pharmacuetical in particular which may explain DTW, CMH, and ATL.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: EWRandMDW
Posted 2013-01-14 08:56:55 and read 6889 times.

Quoting point2point (Reply 154):
SNA gets benefit of the wind to DEN and is about 850 miles.......TTN is about twice as long to DEN and goes against the wind......

But SNA has non-stop transcons to EWR @ about 2400 miles, while TTN-DEN will clock in at about 1600. Given TTN's longer runway, couldn't a non-stop to DEN be possible?

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2013-01-14 09:33:58 and read 6868 times.

Quoting EWRandMDW (Reply 158):
But SNA has non-stop transcons to EWR @ about 2400 miles, while TTN-DEN will clock in at about 1600. Given TTN's longer runway, couldn't a non-stop to DEN be possible?

United has flown this with the 757-200 and 737-700 neither of which Frontier owns. I might be wrong but i have seen united schedule EWR-SNA with the 319 but i dont remember seeing the 319 been scheduled from SNA to EWR? Maybe it exists in the timetable but i think SNA-EWR is almost always 737-700 flights or 757-200s both of which have great performance on short runways.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-14 10:00:51 and read 6836 times.

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 157):
Does anyone know if F9 is getting much cargo revenue out of TTN? I am wondering if there is high value pharmacuetical in particular which may explain DTW, CMH, and ATL.

I don't think that is the reason for CMH. I think it is more likely to be because there is no LCC service from CMH to the PHL/NYC area.

RDU is slightly better (LCC) served with JetBlue's RDU-JFK, but with Southwest pulling out of RDU-PHL, that's it.

I have all my fingers and toes crossed for TTN-CMH, because if it works, it opens up TTN to several midwest cities that have no (or no LCC) service to the east.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-14 10:45:25 and read 6775 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 155):
The TTN-MDW-DEN flight is ok for connections but the DEN-TTN leaves at 715am and is too early for connections.

By my estimation the flight time between DEN-MDW is roughly two hours and fifteen minutes; add to that the hour time change between Mountain and the Central time zone which makes it an hour later. By my estimation that would put the flight in MDW at 11:00 AM. If you are thinking the 7:15 AM departure out of DEN is too early. that would be a treat to me.

On a random Friday in April the DEN-MDW departure # 532 occurs at 8:05 AM or fifty minutes later. For those who may wish to lay over in the windy city a later flight # 534 departs DEN at 2:50 PM

I believe the contract of carriage allows a maximum wait time at a connecting city of up to four hours. F9 URL shows the layover between flight 532 and 908 at MDW to be 1:38 minutes nowhere close to the max.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: point2point
Posted 2013-01-14 12:23:29 and read 6718 times.

Quoting EWRandMDW (Reply 158):
But SNA has non-stop transcons to EWR @ about 2400 miles, while TTN-DEN will clock in at about 1600. Given TTN's longer runway, couldn't a non-stop to DEN be possible?
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 159):
United has flown this with the 757-200 and 737-700 neither of which Frontier owns.

The glitch or this flight here is that an SNA-EWR flight goes eastward, and almost always will have winds at pushing it along from SNA to EWR........ so this may be possible with a number of aircraft. The reverse of the glitch here is that TTN to DEN goes westward and has the winds always pushing against this plane, therefore needing more time, and especially fuel than a DEN to TTN.

Checking the UA flight schedule for comparison value here, I used flights from both SNA and DEN to EWR, since EWR is pretty close to TTN. The flight time on SNA to EWR is booked at most for 5 hours and 18 minutes, and this is a 2433 mile flight, and has the winds. The reverse EWR to SNA maximum booking is at 6 hours and 29 minutes, a full 1 hour and 11 minutes more in the air on theoretically the same amount of mileage.

I think for that we can use DEN/EWR in our comparison here, and I think that we can agree that the airports are pretty close to each other, and will serve just about the same exact block time (okay, give at most 4-5 minutes off to TTN since there's about 30 miles less on the TTN/DEN route). We find the highest block time at 4 hours and 33 minutes for 1604 miles EWR to DEN, and 3 hours and 50 minutes on the reverse DEN to EWR segment.

Another observation here..... I think that we can assume that UA will pad their EWR operations by some minutes, simply because on average EWR is a busy airport...... and airlines put extra minutes into their schedules to allow for this. On the other hand, I do not think that commercial flights at present from TTN will need schedule padding. In fact, I would think that commercial birs will probably get priority..... TTN controllers will just about clear the airport when an F9 A319 arrives or departs.

Next, just googling short runways and the A319...... I believe from what I saw that the A319 is just as capable as any bird out there on short runways........ so maybe we can assume that an A319 is comparable among the best here?

So..... to conclude this observation here...... the UA flight SNA to EWR using the short runway is in the air 5 hours and 18 minutes for a 2433 mile haul, this considering some padding by UA. The TTN to DEN segment, using the short runway (and using EWR/DEN as the comparison) would be about 4 hours and 33 minutes for a 1604 mile journey..... but we have to consider about 30 less air miles and no padding time for a TTN-DEN flight.

I think that the above made sense in my thinking, and then have to conclude that if SNA-EWR can be flown nonstop, without any restriction while at 5 hours and 18 minutes in the air, then a TTN-DEN segment at less than 4 hours and 33 minutes should be able to be doable without restriction.

So next question..... when are we going to see multiple daily nonstops between DEN and TTN on F9?

 

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-14 12:31:05 and read 6710 times.

Quoting EWRandMDW (Reply 158):
But SNA has non-stop transcons to EWR @ about 2400 miles, while TTN-DEN will clock in at about 1600. Given TTN's longer runway, couldn't a non-stop to DEN be possible?

It may be possible, I'm not a Tech Wallah, I don't know. But I do know there has been a lot of discussion about it.

I also don't know if Frontier will start it. Supposedly, there will be some DEN announcements (new cities?) for the summer schedule - MSO and IFP have their hands up and MSO says there are eight others bidding.

So - I guess, if it is possible - TTN could be one of them. Or there could be other one-stops - DEN-XXX-TTN. Dunno.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: jetsetter629
Posted 2013-01-14 12:40:34 and read 6696 times.

Who would want to fly TTN-MDW-DEN-SFO? I don't think the MDW "connection" is appealing unless DEN is your final destination?

Quoting point2point (Reply 162):
So next question..... when are we going to see multiple daily nonstops between DEN and TTN on F9?

I don't see how time in the air has anything to do with the short runways. The problem is the A319 bound from DEN from TTN is heavy with fuel for the trip. That aircraft won't be able to take off from the short runway at TTN without a lighter load (fewer seats or cargo). While I would love to see TTN-DEN, I don't think it will be a reality in the near future.

Personally, I can see F9 adding BOS, DFW, and maybe even PIT seeing that US is back to being the sole carrier on the intra-state route. But I think multiple daily flights to MDW would come first...

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-14 12:44:26 and read 6696 times.

Quoting jetsetter629 (Reply 164):
Who would want to fly TTN-MDW-DEN-SFO? I don't think the MDW "connection" is appealing unless DEN is your final destination?

Which, for the summer, Colorado is.

I expect there may be a wee bit more expansion at TTN for the summer, but I'm wary of too much. Frontier has thrown a huge bunch of capacity at TTN very quickly.

Quoting jetsetter629 (Reply 164):
Personally, I can see F9 adding BOS, DFW, and maybe even PIT seeing that US is back to being the sole carrier on the intra-state route.

BOS, hopefully, or maybe PVD? I think New England is presently the missing link from the TTN route map.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: point2point
Posted 2013-01-14 13:17:14 and read 6662 times.

Quoting jetsetter629 (Reply 164):
I don't see how time in the air has anything to do with the short runways.

Isn't the time being spent in the air a measure as to have far of a distance a plane can go?

Since wind factors are a consideration, and obviously going eastward is a lot less time in the air than going westward, the distance allowed from any point considering the direction is decided by how much time a plane can spend in the air.

Shorter runways may not allow planes to carry as much fuel, etc in order to cover that same distance that longer runways would provide.

Anyway, that's the way I look at it.


 

[Edited 2013-01-14 13:25:21]

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: steeler83
Posted 2013-01-14 13:57:09 and read 6624 times.

Quoting jetsetter629 (Reply 164):
Personally, I can see F9 adding BOS, DFW, and maybe even PIT seeing that US is back to being the sole carrier on the intra-state route. But I think multiple daily flights to MDW would come first...

I would love to see that. I just hope the folks flying out of PIT won't run back to US. No offense, but the PIT o&d flyers have to be among the dumbest or most naive when it comes to flying... New airlines are not novelties. If they come, they may not stay there for long. Case en point: PIT-JFK(B6) PHL(WN) What are people doing? They're flying these new flights a few times and then deciding US somehow is better. Without those discount airlines, US goes right back to robbing you. Sure, people gripe and complain about rediculously high fares, but if you ask me, they really shouldn't have any right to complain. If they don't use the discounted service, they lose it...

You know what would be messed up? Ryanair-esque TTN-LBE.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: EWRandMDW
Posted 2013-01-15 04:50:04 and read 6438 times.

I have one final (?) comment about the ability of F9 to fly TTN-DEN nonstop given TTN's fairly short runway. SNA-EWR is done >1x daily, but argument is that prevailing winds from west to east provide a boost making such flights possible even though SNA has a shorter runway than TTN. But didn't AQ operate SNA-HNL nonstop service with 737-700s several years ago? That's about 2500 miles AGAINST the prevailing wind. If that could be done, then I don't see why a 900 mile or so shorter flight couldn't be flown west from NJ's capital city!

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: PHLBOS
Posted 2013-01-15 05:57:21 and read 6412 times.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 156):
F9 dropped PHL-DEN a while ago.

Correction to my earlier post: F9 dropped PHL-DEN 8 days ago.


http://www.philly.com/philly/busines...s_airport_its_East_Coast_base.html

Excerpt:

Frontier's ending the Philadelphia-Denver route Jan. 7

For some reason, I thought they dropped the route earlier. My bad.

[Edited 2013-01-15 06:00:12]

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-15 06:14:23 and read 6388 times.

Thank you for correcting yourself, it was announced in September but wasn't effective till 1/7/13.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: enilria
Posted 2013-01-15 06:15:39 and read 6409 times.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 169):
Correction to my earlier post: F9 dropped PHL-DEN 8 days ago.


http://www.philly.com/philly/busines...s_airport_its_East_Coast_base.html

Excerpt:

Frontier's ending the Philadelphia-Denver route Jan. 7

For some reason, I thought they dropped the route earlier. My bad.

But F9 still flies to PHL with scheduled service. I don't know why there was an article saying they are moving everything to TTN. Also, they said they are closing DAY because of CMH.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2013-01-15 07:14:03 and read 6349 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 165):
BOS, hopefully, or maybe PVD? I think New England is presently the missing link from the TTN route map

Yeah but a 319 is probably too large and once daily is not gonna be acceptable when Amtrak is running with such frequency city center to city center.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-15 07:58:07 and read 6307 times.

Quoting freakyrat (Reply 151):
Looks like Frontier uses one of Allegiant's favorite style of ramps at TTN.

Some of the elders here might call it nostalgia or rural. I would love the see one of the trucks with the staircase on the back used.

Quoting enilria (Reply 171):
But F9 still flies to PHL with scheduled service

Are the two Apple flights PHL-CUN and PHL-Punta Cana considered scheduled? In my mind they align closer to charter. Maybe scheduled charter

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: PHLBOS
Posted 2013-01-15 08:12:34 and read 6299 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 173):
Quoting enilria (Reply 171):
But F9 still flies to PHL with scheduled service

Are the two Apple flights PHL-CUN and PHL-Punta Cana considered scheduled? In my mind they align closer to charter. Maybe scheduled charter

See my post from yesterday (reposted below):

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 156):
The only routes they currently serve out PHL are to CUN and Punta Cana; which are former-U5 (USA3000) routes and Apple Vacation destinations.

F9's website shows those 2 routes on their map, so one can indeed book those flights through them (F9) without going through Apple Vacations. Charter flight routes usually don't show up on airline route maps.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: point2point
Posted 2013-01-15 09:42:06 and read 6224 times.

Quoting EWRandMDW (Reply 168):
I have one final (?) comment about the ability of F9 to fly TTN-DEN nonstop given TTN's fairly short runway. SNA-EWR is done >1x daily, but argument is that prevailing winds from west to east provide a boost making such flights possible even though SNA has a shorter runway than TTN. But didn't AQ operate SNA-HNL nonstop service with 737-700s several years ago? That's about 2500 miles AGAINST the prevailing wind. If that could be done, then I don't see why a 900 mile or so shorter flight couldn't be flown west from NJ's capital city!

Good point! Thanks for this. And from info that I found, the metal used here was a 737-700 (can't find if it was an ER or not) and I don't see anything about restrictions.

So....... an F9 A319 is more than likely to be able to handle the TTN-DEN segment nonstop without restrictions. Maybe this will be announced sometime soon, since supposedly more cities are coming online sometime soon to/from DEN. I think that it would certainly be able to draw upon a good sized O&D, especially in summer, as well as have quite a wide range of connect possibilities DEN westward.

 

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-15 09:42:21 and read 6234 times.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 174):
F9's website shows those 2 routes on their map, so one can indeed book those flights through them (F9) without going through Apple Vacations. Charter flight routes usually don't show up on airline route maps.

With a few exceptions, all the Apple Vacations flights are flown as scheduled Frontier as well - one notable exception is ORD-CUN, which is only charter because Frontier didn't get the old USA3000 authority, Airtran did.

The most recent additions to the scheduled network are ORD-HUX and STL-HUX and the longest route in the (scheduled) Frontier network is DEN-PUJ.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2013-01-15 10:03:32 and read 6224 times.

Quoting point2point (Reply 175):
So....... an F9 A319 is more than likely to be able to handle the TTN-DEN segment nonstop without restrictions

The plane certainly can fly the route no issue on a longer runway the distance is low for a 319. Its the runway length thats in question or how much weight restriction they would need to take off. The runway is 6,000 feet but it is neither high nor extreme hot location. Im not sure if its possible ibut im sure frontier has looked into it.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-15 10:45:38 and read 6190 times.

Quoting steeler83 (Reply 167):
If they come, they may not stay there for long. Case en point: PIT-JFK(B6) PHL(WN) What are people doing?

So PIT joins the list of cities that have no or little LLC service to PHL/NYC area? It's getting to be quite a long list.

I was puzzled when I read this comment by Frontier's Daniel Shurz:

http://www.aviationpros.com/news/108...entons-airport-its-east-coast-base

"In the Northeast, "there is a relative paucity of low-cost, low-fare carrier service," he said. "We think there is an incredible convenience to having an airport closer by, particularly when the big airports in the region are congested."

But I'm starting to understand what he meant and it applies to the midwest as well.

I am not suggesting that Frontier will start TTN-PIT - I'm just surprised that the opportunity is there.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-15 10:46:39]

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: Flytravel
Posted 2013-01-15 14:41:21 and read 6069 times.

PIT is just too driveable from the Philly/TTN region which wouldn't make it worthwhile esp. when you consider western Philly suburbs to eastern Pitt suburbs. Straight drive on the PA Turnpike and not passing through city congestion like driving through NYC or DC traffic. College students would fly on a low fare using it like a MegaBus, but families and individuals limited by schedule would stick to driving. CLE is another 2 1/2 hours added to that distance which is beyond point where it's comfortable, and may have better success from TTN.

Quoting jetsetter629 (Reply 164):
Who would want to fly TTN-MDW-DEN-SFO?

Cheapskates that want the free parking at TTN or less hassle at departure. WN has markets from the east coast e.g ISP, PWM to areas out west require atleast 2 stops also.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: gustywinds
Posted 2013-01-15 16:51:10 and read 6009 times.

What is stopping F9 from flying DEN-TTN nonstop but stopping in MDW on the return (TTN-MDW-DEN)?

I believe F9's main issue is aircraft availability. I believe COS is a casualty of Republic's E190 reliability woes as well as the current lack of Airbus. I've been told that F9 should've received 3 A320s in Q2 but it is now planned for 1 A319 for the quarter. 3 A319s and an A318 are scheduled for lease return during the same quarter.

2 E190s will be based in DCA and 2 E190s will be based in DEN. F9 will schedule the E190s on routes that fly the Airbus same day, so if and when the E190 cancels, there will be some protection on F9's own Airbus.

The sooner F9 can separate from Republic the better

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-15 17:02:30 and read 6007 times.

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 180):
I've been told that F9 should've received 3 A320s in Q2 but it is now planned for 1 A319 for the quarter. 3 A319s and an A318 are scheduled for lease return during the same quarter.

I never heard of 3 x A320 coming in in April, I only knew of a planned one.

But - TTN changes everything, and since they aren't planning to fly A320's at TTN, at least for now, they've swapped it for an A319 - N954FR.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: DeltaRules
Posted 2013-01-15 21:06:51 and read 5854 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 171):
Also, they said they are closing DAY because of CMH.

That's interesting because with F9, the only destination common to DAY and CMH was MKE. CMH-MCI and DAY-DEN were the other routes flown from those two cities.

Is F9 wanting to take WN and UA on on CMH-DEN?

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-15 22:03:33 and read 5824 times.

Quoting DeltaRules (Reply 182):
Is F9 wanting to take WN and UA on on CMH-DEN?

Anything;s possible, I guess, but I'd be surprised. I think CMH is more about TTN rather than DEN.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-16 01:16:57 and read 5755 times.

There was some info of note in the Philly.com article
http://www.philly.com/philly/busines...s_airport_its_East_Coast_base.html

First they say that load factors for TTN-MCO for January were around 90 percent. And that the bookings for February look promising. They also said that they don't have plans for any other routes so maybe no TTN-DEN for awhile.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: STT757
Posted 2013-01-16 08:14:54 and read 5659 times.

I want to try them from TTN for a trip to Florida during President's Day weekend, the departure from TTN is good (Friday) but I want to come back Monday and there are no return trips from anywhere in Florida to TTN on Mondays.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-16 09:08:35 and read 5603 times.

Quoting point2point (Reply 175):

As I recall the AQ SNA-HNL 737 required extra or modified fuel tanks to compensate for the extra fuel burn.

It may also included AQ OAK-HNL service. AQ also flew LAS-HNL which if memory serves me as a crow flies was less distance than SNA-HNL. I'm not convinced about that one.

Quoting mariner (Reply 181):
TTN changes everything, and since they aren't planning to fly A320's at TTN, at least for now,

I was thinking the a A320 can't be to far away in TTN future. On AS scheduling side Juneau JNU across the twelve or so years is a 737 town. AS will not hesitate to swap the the 737 with the 738 (usually) between SEA-JNU-SEA or even the 739 which has less seats than the 738 as the loads warrant. I would think this would be in any carriers play book more-so those who fly less than daily service.

As it relates to the TTN-DEN service why couldn't they put enough fuel onboard to fly the A319 to MDW and use MDW as a topping off airport for the continuation to DEN. I'm sure TTN wouldn't be disappointed with one stop service to the west. It need not be MDW either; it could be DFW (if that is where TTN wants to fly) or MCI if some life is to remain there.

[Edited 2013-01-16 09:24:37]

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-16 09:16:52 and read 5595 times.

Its expensive but it does operate on Monday the 18th $'78 for the one way
FEB18 F9 0976 FLL 06:40 PM TTN 09:25 PM

And the only Friday flight TTN-MCO is around $250. I'd try again later hopefully at a less busy time. UA has EWR-MCO 745am departure on Friday and an 1145am departure on Monday is $288RT.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-16 09:17:33 and read 5594 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 185):
I want to try them from TTN for a trip to Florida during President's Day weekend, the departure from TTN is good (Friday) but I want to come back Monday and there are no return trips from anywhere in Florida to TTN on Mondays.

FLL-TTN flies on Mondays - #976 leaving FLL at 6.40 pm.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 186):
As it relates to the TTN-DEN service why couldn't they put enough fuel onboard to fly the A319 to MDW and use MDW as a topping off airport for the continuation to DEN.

That's what they're doing - TTN-MDW-DEN same plane service.

I imagine there may be some others.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-16 09:47:13 and read 5561 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 188):
That's what they're doing - TTN-MDW-DEN same plane service.

I was confusing the TTN-MDW-DEN with the wishlist TTN-DEN non-stop talked about by the TTN airprort authority. I knew the DEN-MDW-TTN came to fruition which involves a change of planes at MDW.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-16 09:50:05 and read 5557 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 189):

I was confusing the TTN-MDW-DEN with the wishlist TTN-DEN non-stop talked about by the TTN airprort authority. I knew the DEN-MDW-TTN came to fruition which involves a change of planes at MDW.

TTN-MDW-DEN also came thru
F9 907 TTN 1035am DEN 200pm

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-16 09:56:25 and read 5549 times.

Free flights for a year - to the lucky Grand Prize winner of the Trenton Takes Off Sweepstakes:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/fro...n-takes-off-sweepstakes-2013-01-16

"Frontier Airlines Announces Trenton Takes Off Sweepstakes Chance to win roundtrip flights for a year* out of Trenton"

Grand Prize - Twelve flights - one per month, as well as monthly prizes.

I think it's a great way to make the airport known - and to build-up the email database.  

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2013-01-16 10:24:41 and read 5505 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 185):
I want to try them from TTN for a trip to Florida during President's Day weekend, the departure from TTN is good (Friday) but I want to come back Monday and there are no return trips from anywhere in Florida to TTN on Mondays

Exactly the problem. I think there will be many people who would use them but the dates just wont work out. At least for COS they could connect people in DEN on the off days or let people fly another airline on the return. There is no other carrier at TTN to use even. If your car is stuck in TTN you need to fly back there and no mass transit to get it or anything. I really think it would be best if they can get to at least 6x week on the routes that are gonna work out. I see allegiant model working for people headed to Vegas, Orlando, or Phoenix for a week vacationers but if i want to visit columbus or raleigh to visit family they are gonna need more frequency. Maybe im wrong there are a ton of people in the area but i think the allegiant model is gonna need more frequency to work in TTN

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: STT757
Posted 2013-01-16 10:35:15 and read 5486 times.

They give you a 10% off discount code if you enter.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-16 10:36:52 and read 5497 times.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 192):
Maybe im wrong there are a ton of people in the area but i think the allegiant model is gonna need more frequency to work in TTN

It doesn't seem to be affecting loads:

http://articles.philly.com/2013-01-1...t-frontier-airlines-daniel-shurz/2

"The twice-weekly Orlando planes are more than 90 percent full this month."

Walk before you run. Lower frequency is one of the pillars of the Frontier restructure.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-16 10:47:26]

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: steeler83
Posted 2013-01-16 12:51:18 and read 5416 times.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 179):
PIT is just too driveable from the Philly/TTN region which wouldn't make it worthwhile esp. when you consider western Philly suburbs to eastern Pitt suburbs. Straight drive on the PA Turnpike and not passing through city congestion like driving through NYC or DC traffic.

I live in Downingtown (western suburb), and my parents live in Baldwin (I pretty much consider that Pittsburgh; their mailing address is Pittsburgh -- it's just south of the city line). It takes me about five hours to drive the turnpike. If I were to drive from the Trenton area, that would likely add at least another hour to my drive, and that would be on a good day.

I do suppose a strong argument for greater Philly could not be made, but what about those traveling between New York and Pittsburgh? That's a good 8 or 9 hour drive minimum right there...

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-16 13:56:46 and read 5356 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 194):
It doesn't seem to be affecting loads:
Quoting mariner (Reply 194):
"The twice-weekly Orlando planes are more than 90 percent full this month."

And January and some of February have scaled back operations at the Disney parks. I believe Universal also scales back some in January and February. Disney closes at 9:00 PM vs. 11:00 PM the later closing occurs in March according to the schedule. http://www.wdwinfo.com/wdwinfo/hours.htm

In late February into March outside of Tampa on I-4 you have the Strawberry festival at Plant City. http://www.flstrawberryfestival.com/

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2013-01-16 15:06:37 and read 5305 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 194):
It doesn't seem to be affecting loads:

I see the allegiant model being good for leisure destiations like MCO i am just questioning if it can work on city pairs like TTN-RDU/CMH for example. Those are the routes i think might need to go 6x or be eliminated, but im just guessing here like everyone.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-16 15:18:53 and read 5308 times.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 197):
I see the allegiant model being good for leisure destiations like MCO i am just questioning if it can work on city pairs like TTN-RDU/CMH for example. Those are the routes i think might need to go 6x or be eliminated, but im just guessing here like everyone.

I think we're all guessing - and to some extent Frontier is, too. There is little or no precedent for TTN.

But RDU is already 6 x weekly, as is MDW.

CMH, which most here (including me) thought the dodgiest one, is 3 x weekly, but it's easy enough to add frequency if bookings warrant it.

And I've since changed my mind about CMH. When Daniel Shurz talks about TTN being leisure oriented, I agree - because I think that in summer TTN becomes a leisure destination, or a proxy for one.

It's still a risk because almost any destination from TTN is a risk. But there's only one way to find out.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: Flytravel
Posted 2013-01-16 17:14:08 and read 5261 times.

Quoting steeler83 (Reply 195):
I do suppose a strong argument for greater Philly could not be made, but what about those traveling between New York and Pittsburgh? That's a good 8 or 9 hour drive minimum right there...

I think probably it could work between the NJ and Pittsburgh traffic than the Philly to Pittsburgh traffic on the F9 model That is, 2x or 3x weekly with VFR from college student traffic (CMU and U.Pitt), M-F commuters, and maybe Pitt travelers looking to leisure in NYC or the shore. Also some could fly to Pitt and rent a car to drive to Cleveland. The other way some could rent a car at TTN and stay by Bordentown where it's inexpensive, drive and park in Jersey City and take the PATH to NYC for a day trip, or drive to the shore in the summer.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-17 11:19:01 and read 5088 times.

This may sound a bit corny but the idea is to get the service known.
Frontier Airlines..the official airline of the Trenton Thunder (AA minor league baseball team) or something??

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: point2point
Posted 2013-01-17 11:42:32 and read 5066 times.

I would wonder if F9 eventually becomes successful at TTN, and this lasts a few years.... and then F9 starts receiving their 319NEO orders...... could TTN possibly serve to be an east coast hub for flights to Europe, places such as LHR (I know - slots) or CDG, or AMS, etc. or even some of the smaller airports there? Despite the short runway.... at least these flights from TTN would have the tradewinds benefit.......

I know, thinking far too much into the future here...... (maybe F9 could pull TTN next year or so if things don't go well...) but hey..... a possibility?

 

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-17 12:02:10 and read 5047 times.

Quoting point2point (Reply 201):
could TTN possibly serve to be an east coast hub for flights to Europe, places such as LHR (I know - slots) or CDG, or AMS, etc

If I had my druthers F9 would remain a domestic (North America) carrier and avoid the global recognition. There are many like me who will avoid where ever possible flying on a U.S.flagged carrier to/from foreign soil who has worldwide recognition. The big four AA, DL, UA, US and slowly HA for there expanding service to the far east.

[Edited 2013-01-17 12:25:40]

[Edited 2013-01-17 12:26:25]

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-17 12:25:51 and read 5030 times.

As DS keeps saying the task is to make people aware of the service at TTN - and in some cases, where Trenton is.

CMH airport has hit on a novel way of doing this. In a banner ad for the new Frontier service, they have a verrrry useful map:



I think Frontier should send that map to all the new airports.  

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-17 12:59:30 and read 4989 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 203):
I think Frontier should send that map to all the new airports.

Although the placard shows the largest tag to be Trenton I might have expanded Trenton is Jersey's capital city and a alternative to NYC and Philly. Even the big four travel sites provide the option of searching nearby airports.

If I was unfamiliar with F9; which many are in the East I could easily interpret the signage to think service is also offered to NYC, PHL and ACY only because most every carrier offers service to NYC and PHL at least the carriers the public is generally familiar with.

Thank to Governor Christie persona N.J. is on the map.

[Edited 2013-01-17 13:02:25]

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-17 14:59:23 and read 4919 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 204):
Although the placard shows the largest tag to be Trenton I might have expanded Trenton is Jersey's capital city and a alternative to NYC and Philly.

Keep it simple,. I say.

RDU airport tries to explain where Trenton is - far less successfully, I think:

http://www.rdu.com/newsroom/stories/frontier.html

"Traveling to Pennsylvania or New Jersey? Frontier Airlines is returning to RDU on April 8 with new service to Trenton-Mercer County Airport. The airport is located halfway between Philadelphia and Newark, N.J. and offers a great alternative for those traveling to the region."

In my book, a picture is worth quite a lot of words.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-17 17:01:18 and read 4848 times.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 129):
Access to Amtrak, SEPTA, and/or NJTransit would certainly help out TTN
Quoting Flytravel (Reply 134):
It's listed as 5.4 to 6 miles from the main Trenton Transit Center, which has Septa, NJT and Amtrak, to TTN.

I was looking at the Amtrak fares between Philly and Trenton and Trenton to NYC (Penn Station) The fare from Philly to Trenton cost $28.00 one way and Trenton-NYC was $41 to $61 without any discounts. If the airfares justified it I might try Philly-Trenton on Amtrak. NYC-Trenton is a little pricy.

I still think a agreement with mega bus from Philly to TTN (the airport) and NYC to TTN could be tested for the $12 - $15 fare I post earlier in the thread; even if mega wanted to charge a couple more dollars for the deviation from the Princeton transit center to the airport. F9 might be pleasantly surprised.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: EWRandMDW
Posted 2013-01-17 17:39:23 and read 4820 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 206):
I was looking at the Amtrak fares between Philly and Trenton and Trenton to NYC (Penn Station) The fare from Philly to Trenton cost $28.00 one way and Trenton-NYC was $41 to $61 without any discounts. If the airfares justified it I might try Philly-Trenton on Amtrak. NYC-Trenton is a little pricy.

You can take SEPTA from Trenton Station to Philly and NJ Transit from the same station to NYC for less than 1/2 the AMTRAK fare.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2013-01-17 18:55:52 and read 4764 times.

It's still a risk because almost any destination from TTN is a risk. But there's only one way to find out.

Quoting EWRandMDW (Reply 207):
You can take SEPTA from Trenton Station to Philly and NJ Transit from the same station to NYC for less than 1/2 the AMTRAK fare.

NJT is really unrealistic from NYP for example. Its stops so many times you would go crazy, its not cheap, you need to find and pay for a cab after a long flight and when you add all those up its not cheap and would take forever. Plus the double decker cars on alot of the NE corridor are extremely unluggage friendly as i have seen super narrow stairs. It would be such an incredibly long and tiring day EWR would probably be cheaper and so much faster in the end plus you could actually select what time of day you want to travel which would save you hours. TTN is not gonna pull people from the cities there is not a mass transit connection it wont survive and if you add all the mass transit up its too expensive to be realistic. I am sure frontier is targeting the suburbanites and has them in mind.

It does offer some things to suburbanites like an easier drive/less tolls for many, free parking, walking to the terminal, and quick security. If the suburbanites don't use it, it will fail in the end. The suburbanites are the ones who have some real advantages using TTN.

Megabus from NYC or Philly would be a DISASTER. Traffic is impossible to predict and you would have tons of people missing flights and doing what in Trenton? Sleeping outside in freezing weather so theres hopefully a plane the next day which there wont always be or it could be sold out. Did we forget why trains are so popular in this area the buses have tons of traffic risk and can be super late at times. If you are just traveling to Princeton the times its late you just arrive late if you were planning on offering a connection to a flight those people are in huge trouble. or megabus certiainly does not have great on time ratings its a super low cost economy line what do you when maintenance problems occur etc frontier has so few flights.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-17 19:53:46 and read 4706 times.

Mercer County appears to be onboard as it should be:

http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2...ughes_focuses_on_economic_hea.html

"Mercer County Executive touts development, Frontier Airlines expansion in annual address

The county executive said tourism-related revenue has been increasing and said he hoped that commercial carrier Frontier Airlines' recent introduction of flights out of Trenton-Mercer Airport in Ewing will help further boost tourism in the coming years.

"We plan to make every effort to work with our local and state tourism partners to ensure that our county continues to thrive as a tourism destination," he said."


I'm intrigued about those tourism revenues.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: clickhappy
Posted 2013-01-17 21:30:09 and read 4657 times.

I know another airline that had excellent TTN-MCO loads:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Cary Liao - AeroPX

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-17 21:38:23 and read 4651 times.

Quoting clickhappy (Reply 210):
I know another airline that had excellent TTN-MCO loads:

I think it's the back of all our minds.

Half of a.not said it when Frontier first announced TTN.  

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-17 21:39:02]

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: Sligo
Posted 2013-01-18 05:14:55 and read 4566 times.

Quoting clickhappy (Reply 210):
I know another airline that had excellent TTN-MCO loads:

(first post, hi all)

I like almost everything about this experiment by F9 except the frequencies. If you're going to do this, dont do it half-hearted. Do it or do not do it. These low frequencies look too much like Eastwind.

The fatal flaws with Eastwind were IMHO, in order of importance, (1) its product (i.e. its schedule) was incredibly erratic with destinatons scrapped and added with reckless abandon, (2) the frequencies were insufficient for the market to gain critical mass such that business travelers never considered TTN a credible alternative during its time and thus it could only attract leisure travel and very sparadic biz travel, and (3) significant operational problems that stemmed from problems #1 and #2 driving poor business performance.


Flying to MDW could be a goldmine for F9, but not if you're flying low frequency. They could go 3x M, 2x T, 2xW, 3xR, 3xF, 1xSa, 2xSu and be fine. But any lower than that and you're keeping none of the plentiful TTN-based business traffic home; they'll schlep to PHL or EWR to get the frequncies of service.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-01-18 06:33:43 and read 4527 times.

Quoting Sligo (Reply 212):

I think the Florida flying will do well but be rest wont. F9 will pull everything by the end of summer except Florida.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: Sligo
Posted 2013-01-18 06:46:30 and read 4506 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 213):
I think the Florida flying will do well but be rest wont. F9 will pull everything by the end of summer except Florida.


If they dont get the frequncies in MDW/etc up...then yes, I agree. But the underlying demand is there in spades. F9, for whatever reason (cautiousness?, aircraft avail?) has chosen, at least as of now, not to offer a product in biz markets that would sufficiently tap into that demand.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: Flytravel
Posted 2013-01-18 06:56:51 and read 4493 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 213):
I think the Florida flying will do well but be rest wont. F9 will pull everything by the end of summer except Florida.

I could see MCO, TPA and FLL staying year round with best frequency, replace DTW and CMH with PIT and CLE, MSY seasonal at best, while MDW, RDU and ATL, add BOS or PVD, stay at lower frequencies but atleast 3-4x weekly and permitting weekend get away travel, working fine.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 208):
Plus the double decker cars on alot of the NE corridor are extremely unluggage friendly as i have seen super narrow stairs.

Many already manage with it, and take the trains to EWR. Similar to PHL. Seen tighter spots on the local subway from MDW and ORD with pax carrying luggage. The pax are not traveling to India for 3 weeks. The train is fine for one taking a carry on item. It's just going the other direction and the cab fare from train station to airport would be $30 one way. If the F9 fare r/t fare is more than $100 less than EWR, it could be worth it. But I doubt F9 will market TTN to the Jersey City, Hoboken area anyways

[Edited 2013-01-18 07:26:11]

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-18 07:23:48 and read 4456 times.

Quoting Sligo (Reply 212):
none of the plentiful TTN-based business traffic home;

Yeah, I was staying in Princeton at the Courtyard on Rt 1 and decieded to check TTN out. It took me 15 minutes to get to TTN and I probably could have gotten there in 10 if it wasn't for the traffic on Southbound Rt 1. Plus Church and Dwight of the Arm and Hammer brand just built a 250,000 square foot building literally 5 minutes from TTN a quick 2 mile ride down I-95. You got several office parks close by. The area with in a 2 mile radius has enough business travel to support 3 hotels one of which the Courtyard is less than a half a mile from TTN. F9 needs to go atleast daily with MDW with more business friendly times. Hopefully they will take routes that aren't doing well and put the frequencies into MDW.

The other thing they need is the modernization they've been talking about. I went into the terminal and the parts I saw of it looked horrible. There even were signs saying there were no bathrooms beyond security.

[Edited 2013-01-18 07:25:30]

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-18 07:33:33 and read 4430 times.

Quoting EWRandMDW (Reply 207):
You can take SEPTA from Trenton Station to Philly and NJ Transit from the same station to NYC for less than 1/2 the AMTRAK fare.

Oh but the ambiance of rail. With that said I suppose ambiance cost! I suspected there are other modes of transportation less expensive; mega being one of them. As I posted earlier www.megabus.com offers Princeton (Palmer Sqare) to NYC express for $12.50 to $14.50 nine times daily. Philly-Princeton is not yet offered

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 208):
Megabus from NYC or Philly would be a DISASTER

With a little bit of planning and nine daily departures offered from NYC-Princeton the first at 6:00 AM and the last at 10"00 PM and what looks to be every two hours thereafter. I don't see how. Mega's time table shows the transit time to be one hour and thirty minutes. With a little bit of fluff built in. Are there bad traffic times; most certainly. I've drove through the area mid day and sailed right through.

As it relates to mega-bus, my college student son traveled from D.C. to NYC on Dec 28 just as people were starting to return from their Christmas visits. Not to deflate your synopsis but his mega bus departed D.C. on time and arrived in NYC early. On a earlier trip Dec 26 his mega bus departed Nashville on time arrived in Knoxville early. His connection out of Knoxville departed on time arrived in D.C. two hours late due to blowing snow which required slower speeds up the 315 mile I-81 & 60 mile I-66 corridor in Northern Virgina. On a trip last summer his mega bus left Nashville on time arrived in Chicago on time via Louisville and Indy.

I've traveled on a few motor coach type buses from Petaluma, California to SFO and arrived well in advance of my flight. It truly is all about planning. San Fran has horrific traffic as does Boston and Atlanta and most larger metropolis at the wrong time of day. It all about planning around the airline departure times.

Mega-bus may not be for the business travel but it is an option for the frugal and budget consciences

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-18 09:14:14 and read 4378 times.

Quoting Sligo (Reply 212):
I like almost everything about this experiment by F9 except the frequencies.

One of the essential reasons Frontier is now making money is because of the low and lowered frequencies.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: Sligo
Posted 2013-01-18 09:40:02 and read 4355 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 218):
One of the essential reasons Frontier is *now* making money is because of the low and lowered frequencies.

My asteriks added above to emphasize the word "now". Sure, I agree given that they're flying all leisure now. Allegiant-style frequencies to leisure markets can make money at TTN low-frequency; we're in agreement on that. Though I think you probably understand that I was making a different point.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: STT757
Posted 2013-01-18 09:46:02 and read 4348 times.

TTN has some big corporate neighbors:

Merrill Lynch
Bristol Myers Squib
Johnson and Johnson
Princeton University

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-18 09:58:25 and read 4333 times.

Quoting Sligo (Reply 219):
My asteriks added above to emphasize the word "now". Sure, I agree given that they're flying all leisure now. Allegiant-style frequencies to leisure markets can make money at TTN low-frequency; we're in agreement on that. Though I think you probably understand that I was making a different point.

I'm not sure I do.

Frontier was always a leisure airline. It came to grief when it tried to be more than that - I've given an example in the other thread.

Some business travellers certainly fly Frontier and I imagine that may - may - happen at TTN and if it does then hooray, they can add frequency.

But nothing will be worse for TTN than over-reaching. So that:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 213):
I think the Florida flying will do well but be rest wont. F9 will pull everything by the end of summer except Florida.

Non-Flroida can always go seasonal. Spirit, for example, flies ACY-DTW seasonally and seriously reduces (winter) frequency ACY-ATL.

Very little about TTN is known or predictable, and already there are a couple of surprises, at least to me. But as Daniel Shurz keeps saying, the focus at TTN is on leisure, as it is throughout the airline. That (original) DEN-CUN is the model, or original SLC-CUN or, nowadays, DEN-BLI, instead of what happened with the first LAX focus city or the disaster that was LAX-SFO.

Leisure is the core market - anything else is gravy.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-18 11:03:59 and read 4271 times.

It says its going after all leisure passengers but why did they start MDW with 6X weekly those 6 days being business days too. I would think alot of leisure passengers or VFR pax would actually want to come home on Saturday rather than taking a vacation and coming back on the day before they have to go back to work. And those that are looking for a low fare would deal with 3X-4X a week the other 2X of the week could be flying to other leisure destinations like FL.

F9 says its on a diet but its surrounding itself with gravy (business travelers). Alot of this is probably due to lack of planes.

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-18 11:18:24 and read 4255 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 222):
It says its going after all leisure passengers but why did they start MDW with 6X weekly those 6 days being business days too.

Because this is a summer schedule and because a lot of people want to fly MDW-PHL/NYC (and vv) for leisure.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 222):
Alot of this is probably due to lack of planes.

The constrained fleet certainly plays into it, but look at DEN-BLI. Daily last year, with very good loads. Less than daily this year to get the yield up.

It is infinitely better to turn people away - to leave money on the table - than to have empty seats.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-18 11:33:59]

Topic: RE: Frontier's New TTN Cities?
Username: floorrunner
Posted 2013-01-18 17:12:30 and read 4120 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 220):
TTN has some big corporate neighbors:

Merrill Lynch
Bristol Myers Squib
Johnson and Johnson
Princeton University

Also the State Government.


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