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Topic: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: Aerowrench
Posted 2013-01-04 17:44:51 and read 25279 times.

Along with the following city pairs beginning in April. These will be reflected in the schedule being loaded 12 January.

EWR-PHL (Philadelphia)
ORD-SJU (San Juan, Puerto Rico)
IAD-MHT (Manchester, N.H.)
IAD-PNS (Pensacola, Fla.)
IAH-CID (Cedar Rapids, Iowa)
LAX-TUL (Tulsa, Okla.)

Topic: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: Kcrwflyer
Posted 2013-01-04 17:49:01 and read 25286 times.

Didn't they just start CID-IAH not too long ago? Maybe I'm thinking of another route. IAD-MHT is somewhat of a surprise.

Topic: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: deltairlines
Posted 2013-01-04 17:58:51 and read 25201 times.

And the ConUnited gutting of Manchester NH continues.

If this is true, to compare May13 with May03:

IAD goes from 4x/day CRJ to zilch (was scheduled 1x/day RJ)
ORD goes from 2x/day 733, 1x/day 757, 1x/day 320 to 13x/wk CRJ-700
EWR goes from 1x/day 735 and 3x/day ERJ to 3x/day ERJ
CLE goes from 3x/day ERJ to 11x/wk (1.6/day) ERJ

We'll neglect the Beeches CO Connection had to ALB as well.

Off and on UA was using CR7s on MHT-IAD as well. Peak was summer 2007 when it was 3x/day CR7 to IAD.

Topic: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: deltairlines
Posted 2013-01-04 18:05:27 and read 25159 times.

As for other route commentary:

Quoting Aerowrench (Thread starter):
EWR-PHL (Philadelphia)

With the Amtrak deal, makes much more sense to throw passengers on a Keystone train from Center City than schlep to the airport and fly 15 minutes between two delay prone airports. It's quicker from downtown to EWR on Amtrak than it is on the plane.

Quoting Aerowrench (Thread starter):
ORD-SJU (San Juan, Puerto Rico)

American dominates this market. Flying it SaSu only chases the leisure traveler. Those who want to fly UA can still get there easily via EWR/IAD

Quoting Aerowrench (Thread starter):
IAD-PNS (Pensacola, Fla.)

Long thin 50 seater flight. Not a huge shocker. Only surprise is no real convenient option on UA to the Northeast now. Guess they figure they'll let DL/US/FL (for now) take it.

Quoting Aerowrench (Thread starter):
LAX-TUL (Tulsa, Okla.)

Long thin RJ route at 1283 miles. Easy enough to onestop on WN.

Quoting Aerowrench (Thread starter):
IAH-CID (Cedar Rapids, Iowa)

Biggest suprise on the list, but it's still a long, thin ride on a 50 seater. Plenty of viable connecting options still exist over ORD and DEN. Chalk this one into the sCO didn't fly into CID so didn't make sense to start a station for a marginal route (the overhead would have doomed it) but with sUA already there, worth a gamble on a couple of RJs a day since the overhead was in place already.

Topic: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: nws2002
Posted 2013-01-04 18:30:43 and read 25071 times.

Wasn't TUL-LAX started as a response to ExpressJet service from TUL-ONT? It seems like it began around that time, but I don't really remember for sure.

Topic: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: mah4546
Posted 2013-01-04 18:34:43 and read 25048 times.

Quoting deltairlines (Reply 3):
Quoting Aerowrench (Thread starter):
LAX-TUL (Tulsa, Okla.)

Long thin RJ route at 1283 miles. Easy enough to onestop on WN.

But good demand, strong business ties.

I will not be shocked to see AA enter this route soon.

Topic: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: mfricke
Posted 2013-01-04 18:46:43 and read 24985 times.

How is it that LAX-OKC can support three nonstops a day (2X AA & 1X UA), but TUL can't support one nonstop to LAX?

Topic: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-01-04 18:54:44 and read 24948 times.

In addition United will discontinue service to 3 markets entirely

o Port-au-Prince, Haiti
o Willemstad, Curacao
o Del Rio, Texas.

As the internal notification regarding all these route discontinuation stated - these routes have been unprofitable, and a big focus is on placing aircraft in markets that provide the best financial performance.

Topic: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-01-04 18:54:49 and read 24932 times.

Quoting deltairlines (Reply 3):
American dominates this market. Flying it SaSu only chases the leisure traveler. Those who want to fly UA can still get there easily via EWR/IAD

You say that as if there's anything but leisure/vfr to SJU. There hasn't been any meaningful business travel there in years.

Topic: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: mhkansan
Posted 2013-01-04 19:10:08 and read 24854 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 5):
But good demand, strong business ties.

I will not be shocked to see AA enter this route soon.
Quoting mfricke (Reply 6):
How is it that LAX-OKC can support three nonstops a day (2X AA & 1X UA), but TUL can't support one nonstop to LAX?

AA is upping LAX-OKC to 3x daily CRJ.

Also, UA is starting LAX-ICT, and the ICT market considerably bleeds (mostly to WN) to OKC and TUL.

This means the OKC/TUL/ICT area will have five! nonstops to LAX with TUL being the odd man out. AA might try it if the 3x daily CR7 works out. Personally I'd like to see the region regain access to the MIA hub, which I still think is poorly connected to the midwest - no MIA-MCI/OKC/TUL/XNA/LIT/OMA/ABQ/DSM. It's impressive to me that AA prices routings to/thru MIA mostly through ORD, it seems, at least from my station.

The area is large and growing. I don't know why UA thinks that ICT is more lucrative than TUL, but I'm sure they know much more than I do about the subject. And best of luck to them at ICT - I love to see Kansas get better air service!

Topic: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: mah4546
Posted 2013-01-04 19:16:13 and read 24837 times.

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 9):
no MIA-MCI/OKC/TUL/XNA/LIT/OMA/ABQ/DSM.

AA flies MIATUL, albeit only once weekly 738 service (TULMIA on Saturday; MIATUL on Sunday).

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: greg3322
Posted 2013-01-04 19:31:30 and read 24756 times.

Quoting Aerowrench (Thread starter):
LAX-TUL (Tulsa, Okla.)

That sucks - I take that flight a few times a year. Always busy when I'm on it. Back to AA on the LAX-XNA flight. (My destination is almost smack between TUL and XNA, so it doesn't matter which one I go to).

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: iowaman
Posted 2013-01-04 19:34:23 and read 24715 times.

Quoting Aerowrench (Thread starter):
IAH-CID (Cedar Rapids, Iowa)

Unfortunate to see this one go. While only a small portion of the seats out of CID, enplanements are up double digts in CID last year and this won't help for 2013.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
As the internal notification regarding all these route discontinuation stated - these routes have been unprofitable, and a big focus is on placing aircraft in markets that provide the best financial performance.

I'm so glad airlines are finally focusing on profits as they should be to please the shareholders and keep the business going.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-01-04 19:34:44 and read 24713 times.

Quoting greg3322 (Reply 11):
Back to AA on the LAX-XNA flight

I thought didnt exist anymore.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: mhkansan
Posted 2013-01-04 19:44:29 and read 24599 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 10):
AA flies MIATUL, albeit only once weekly 738 service (TULMIA on Saturday; MIATUL on Sunday).

Not anymore, unfortunately. Besides, it was just an aircraft re position with no real benefit to pax heading to central and south america.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 13):
I thought didnt exist anymore.

Correct. Only "off the wall" route left at XNA is XNA-LGA on the ER3.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: greg3322
Posted 2013-01-04 19:49:38 and read 24551 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 13):
I thought didnt exist anymore.

Shoot, I missed that one disappearing as I was using the UA flight. Back to connections, I guess.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-01-04 19:50:48 and read 24541 times.

Yes LAX-XNA is gone on AA.

Allegiant also dropped LAX-XNA in November.

Quoting iowaman (Reply 12):
I'm so glad airlines are finally focusing on profits as they should be to please the shareholders and keep the business going.

  

Frankly this should always have been priority number #1, but over the decades many airlines have evolved in chasing flying that does not provide much to the bottom line, nor is strategically important in the bigger network picture.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2013-01-04 19:59:26 and read 24453 times.

Quoting iowaman (Reply 12):
Unfortunate to see this one go. While only a small portion of the seats out of CID, enplanements are up double digts in CID last year and this won't help for 2013.

IAH-CID is a bit of a surprise. DFW-CID is one of the highest yielding flights on American Eagle and flies 6x a daily and I would have thought UA could get in on it from IAH.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: Aerowrench
Posted 2013-01-04 20:02:30 and read 24398 times.

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 9):
AA is upping LAX-OKC to 3x daily CRJ.

Any idea when AA has planned the start date for this?

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: AVLAirlineFreq
Posted 2013-01-04 20:22:00 and read 24192 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
In addition United will discontinue service to 3 markets entirely

o Port-au-Prince, Haiti
o Willemstad, Curacao
o Del Rio, Texas.

Is Del Rio an EAS market?

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-01-04 20:33:48 and read 24022 times.

Quoting greg3322 (Reply 11):
(My destination is almost smack between TUL and XNA, so it doesn't matter which one I go to).

Siloam Springs? Gentry? ?????

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: tharanga
Posted 2013-01-04 20:44:25 and read 23898 times.

Quoting Aerowrench (Thread starter):
IAD-PNS (Pensacola, Fla.)
Quoting deltairlines (Reply 3):
Long thin 50 seater flight. Not a huge shocker. Only surprise is no real convenient option on UA to the Northeast now. Guess they figure they'll let DL/US/FL (for now) take it.

Long, thin, and now with competition, nonstop DCA-PNS. I'd imagine that on such a route, the DCA nonstop will usually crowd out the IAD nonstop.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: PRAirbus
Posted 2013-01-04 21:11:49 and read 23700 times.

Everyone is "leaving" SJU! AE, BA, IB and now UA will have an even smaller presence; they were never too recignized in PRico, CO had more flights.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: lat41
Posted 2013-01-04 21:14:33 and read 23666 times.

Schedules at many of their meduim cities are withering instead of strengthening since Continited came to be.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: PacificClipper
Posted 2013-01-04 22:40:41 and read 23180 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
In addition United will discontinue service...

Also seems like SFO-FLL is discontinued on 8/26.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: jetmatt777
Posted 2013-01-05 00:10:27 and read 23709 times.

Quoting mfricke (Reply 6):
How is it that LAX-OKC can support three nonstops a day (2X AA & 1X UA), but TUL can't support one nonstop to LAX?

OKC is a larger city (by around 330k people (or 34% larger than TUL in population)) that is booming, while TUL is relatively stagnant. Not really surprising that OKC is supporting more flights/routes. OKC and TUL are no longer twins, haven't been for some years now.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: FlyingSicilian
Posted 2013-01-05 00:38:02 and read 23570 times.

Bummer to see Del Rio go. They have left BPT (for bus) victoria, and earlier abilene, and san angelo. But, if they can't make money it makes sense.

I guess folks at the base in Del Rio will have to make the SAT drive again.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: Beardown91737
Posted 2013-01-05 01:20:55 and read 23827 times.

Quoting nws2002 (Reply 4):

Wasn't TUL-LAX started as a response to ExpressJet service from TUL-ONT? It seems like it began around that time, but I don't really remember for sure.

To my recollection, there weren't any routes started to respond to ExpressJet's ONT service, and I don't remember any discussion on a.net of legacies or LCCs starting up routes in response to them. The one exception was that WN started ONT-RNO after ExpressJet did (XE at the time, but now I think they are EV). I don't know if that happened anywhere else. From what I remember, they went after the largest connecting city pairs that were within range of their ERJs.

ExpressJet did branded flying from 2007-2008 so if LAX-TUL was a response to them, it outlasted by over 4 years.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: PWMRamper
Posted 2013-01-05 01:25:55 and read 23789 times.

Quoting Aerowrench (Thread starter):
IAD-MHT (Manchester, N.H.)

Wow...hard to believe that. Wonder what, if anything, it means for PWM.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: kgaiflyer
Posted 2013-01-05 01:52:59 and read 23714 times.

Quoting PWMRamper (Reply 28):
Quoting Aerowrench (Thread starter):IAD-MHT (Manchester, N.H.)
Wow...hard to believe that. Wonder what, if anything, it means for PWM.

I'm guessing that since PMW-IAD flights are frequently sold-out; since fares are through the roof most of the year, and since there is virtually no competition other than FL's nonstop PWM-BWI service, that the route will stand.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-01-05 02:58:20 and read 23237 times.

IAH-CID is too bad. I'd like to see UA expand IAH flights into the Midwest like AA has done with DFW.


I am betting SFO-FLL is just a seasonal discontinue. I wonder if AA will pick up Del Rio like they did BPT?

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: United_fan
Posted 2013-01-05 05:24:30 and read 21786 times.

Well,I noticed that UA will start bringing in 73G/738/and 739 service to ROC starting in Feb from ORD. We have never had a 739 here,AFAIK.Certainly never had scheduled 738/ 9 service ,either . I read UA is going to put the A319/20's to S . America,(that's what we now get from ORD). That and WN replaces FL here in April. At least there will be some new-for-me metal to photograph,soon.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: usairways85
Posted 2013-01-05 06:29:48 and read 20850 times.

Quoting deltairlines (Reply 3):
With the Amtrak deal, makes much more sense to throw passengers on a Keystone train from Center City than schlep to the airport and fly 15 minutes between two delay prone airports. It's quicker from downtown to EWR on Amtrak than it is on the plane.

Also US flies this at least 5x a day. And these flts had a horrible ontime percentage. I think many of them were in the 60-70% range.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: delawareusa
Posted 2013-01-05 06:49:41 and read 20521 times.

Surprised they are canning EWR-PHL. Always a full flight, at least it was full when the didn't cancel it.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: PROSA
Posted 2013-01-05 06:50:43 and read 20469 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 8):
You say that as if there's anything but leisure/vfr to SJU. There hasn't been any meaningful business travel there in years.

San Juan gets a fair amount of conventions and sales-incentive trips. It benefits from the fact that passports aren't required and from IRS rules that frown on deductions for foreign travel.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: jfklganyc
Posted 2013-01-05 07:02:02 and read 20271 times.

They are axing FLL-SFO? Didn't they just start or up frequency on this route?

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: AWACSooner
Posted 2013-01-05 07:56:38 and read 19282 times.

Quoting mfricke (Reply 6):
How is it that LAX-OKC can support three nonstops a day (2X AA & 1X UA), but TUL can't support one nonstop to LAX?

Simple, OKC > TUL...the pax numbers and mainline levels are proving it. And AA is adding a third n/s to LAX later this year, we have SFO service on UA that TUL doesn't...we have BWI/MCI service and 2x daily on LAS that TUL doesn't...and we have DL mainline to ATL...IIRC, TUL only has RJ's.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: Super80DFW
Posted 2013-01-05 08:01:04 and read 19190 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
o Del Rio, Texas.

American Eagle actually has the ground handling contract for United Express in DRT. I wonder if Eagle will turn around and start DFW-DRT service to maintain their station presence, or just go through the RIF proceedings?

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2013-01-05 08:06:44 and read 19086 times.

Quoting tharanga (Reply 21):
Long, thin, and now with competition, nonstop DCA-PNS. I'd imagine that on such a route, the DCA nonstop will usually crowd out the IAD nonstop.

Yeah, once US launched DCA-PNS, I knew that UA's days on the IAD-PNS route were numbered. Leaves UA in a weak position in the market as they can only effectively carry passengers west....not counting the Silver flights to MCO/TPA.

Interesting to see if the seasonal ORD-PNS survives.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 29):
I'm guessing that since PMW-IAD flights are frequently sold-out; since fares are through the roof most of the year, and since there is virtually no competition other than FL's nonstop PWM-BWI service, that the route will stand.

US flies PWM-DCA as well, but I think PWM can survive.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: IAHFLYR
Posted 2013-01-05 08:09:37 and read 19005 times.

Quoting delawareusa (Reply 33):
Surprised they are canning EWR-PHL. Always a full flight, at least it was full when the didn't cancel it.


Or always delayed while they wait to get into the flow of arrivals over PHL to EWR. Been to PHL many times over the years and the poor Dash was always sitting on a taxiway waiting and waiting. The train makes more sense as mentioned earlier.

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 26):
I guess folks at the base in Del Rio will have to make the SAT drive again.


Makes for a long day of travel when it starts/ends with the drive to SAT, or even adds a day increasing travel costs for the military. Sad to see that dropped for my friends who live and work at DLF.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: STT757
Posted 2013-01-05 08:10:44 and read 18998 times.

Quoting deltairlines (Reply 3):
With the Amtrak deal, makes much more sense to throw passengers on a Keystone train from Center City than schlep to the airport and fly 15 minutes between two delay prone airports. It's quicker from downtown to EWR on Amtrak than it is on the plane.
Quoting delawareusa (Reply 33):
Surprised they are canning EWR-PHL. Always a full flight, at least it was full when the didn't cancel it.

A couple things, as mentioned Amtrak serves the Newark Airport Rail Link station 9 times a day from Philadelphia 30th street station. The quickest train makes the trip in 59 minutes, when you factor in weather, delays etc.. that's going to be faster than flying PHL-EWR on most days. You also earn Mileageplus miles for traveling between EWR and Philadelphia, Stamford, Wilmington and New Haven.

http://www.united.com/CMS/en-US/Mark...tComm/Promotions/Pages/Amtrak.aspx

Also US still flies PHL-EWR and you can book those through UA and earn miles.

Second as part of the deal to VX to EWR UA, and Porter, are going to lose some slots.

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/5650647/

AA has been leasing excess EWR slots to UA and Porter, now AA is going to lease them to VX so UA is losing those ten leased 10 slots. Also related to VX, UA is boosting EWR-LAX and EWR-SFO frequencies quite a bit. Those will obviously require some additional slots. They've decided to fund those needs with the PHL slots.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: southwest737500
Posted 2013-01-05 08:13:14 and read 18938 times.

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 36):

DL flies a 737-800 in the evening and a A319 in the afternoon to TUL

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: Avi8r747
Posted 2013-01-05 08:17:05 and read 18870 times.

Great, MHT-IAD.... As if MHT were not difficult enough as is to get in and out of   

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: AWACSooner
Posted 2013-01-05 09:07:06 and read 17968 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
In addition United will discontinue service to 3 markets entirely

o Port-au-Prince, Haiti
o Willemstad, Curacao

I don't get it...CUR is the largest (in size and population) of the ABC islands and yet gets the least amount of traffic from the USA...with UA's pullout, it pretty much leaves it to AA from MIA.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 39):
Or always delayed while they wait to get into the flow of arrivals over PHL to EWR. Been to PHL many times over the years and the poor Dash was always sitting on a taxiway waiting and waiting. The train makes more sense as mentioned earlier.

Makes me even more glad I am flying the 6 am flight out on UA from PHL to EWR later this month before waiting 9.5 hours for our LH flight to DUS...because the later flight option on UA would've left me, my wife and my daughter with only an hour layover...yah right!

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 41):

DL flies a 737-800 in the evening and a A319 in the afternoon to TUL

Since when? Obviously, I missed that one...oops.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-01-05 09:25:16 and read 17577 times.

Quoting Super80DFW (Reply 37):
American Eagle actually has the ground handling contract for United Express in DRT. I wonder if Eagle will turn around and start DFW-DRT service to maintain their station presence, or just go through the RIF proceedings?

Anyone remember when LoneStar flew DFW-DRT with a D328 in the 1990s. They codeshared with AA. They also few from DFW to ASE and Ruidoso.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: GSPflyer
Posted 2013-01-05 09:32:36 and read 17411 times.

Surprised GSP-CLE is staying.

Actually, it doesn't look like UA is cutting anything from CLE (unless they are cutting capacity), Unlike DL with MEM and CVG.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: point2point
Posted 2013-01-05 09:42:50 and read 17181 times.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 38):
Yeah, once US launched DCA-PNS, I knew that UA's days on the IAD-PNS route were numbered. Leaves UA in a weak position in the market as they can only effectively carry passengers west....not counting the Silver flights to MCO/TPA.

Interesting to see if the seasonal ORD-PNS survives.

I could think that since IAD-PNS is being cancelled and now supposedly there will be an 'extra' aircraft, maybe DEN-PNS could work here? O&D alone has about an average of 100 pax per day DEN-PNS and with a catchment of MOB with about 40+ and Panama City with 50+ pax per day (some of these pax could be caught here maybe?) there is most likely enough O&D alone to fill a CR9 both ways daily. And of course, with some connects west of DEN that IAH may not do, DEN-PNS would seem like an easy go here........


 

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: southwest737500
Posted 2013-01-05 09:51:45 and read 17027 times.

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 43):

For over a year TUL had a MD88 flight and just this year the second mainline was added. In the winter its a mix of A320s,738,737 for the last flight

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2013-01-05 09:56:59 and read 16872 times.

Quoting point2point (Reply 46):
And of course, with some connects west of DEN that IAH may not do, DEN-PNS would seem like an easy go here........

Theoretically, you might be right, but I don't see it happening. Any of the major markets in the West (LAX, SAN, SFO, PDX, SEA, LAS, PHX) are easily served through IAH. So adding DEN only improves access to a bunch of secondary markets that have little demand to PNS. UA does fly routes like HSV-DEN and TYS-DEN, but I think those are higher yielding since there's minimal LCC presence.

The upside is that the more the legacies pull down, it makes a stronger case for WN to keep PNS.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: Cv990A
Posted 2013-01-05 10:09:14 and read 16658 times.

Am I missing anything on the IAD-MHT flight? I've been flying to NH frequently over the past year, and all I've ever seen is a single poorly-timed flight that was either a late night arrival to MHT with a RON and early departure in the morning to IAD or a single midday flight; I've always found the USAirways DCA-MHT flights while always full, to be better options and competitively priced.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: Flytravel
Posted 2013-01-05 10:16:58 and read 16472 times.

Quoting deltairlines (Reply 3):
With the Amtrak deal, makes much more sense to throw passengers on a Keystone train from Center City than schlep to the airport and fly 15 minutes between two delay prone airports. It's quicker from downtown to EWR on Amtrak than it is on the plane.

Also, for people those that live in suburbs near the PA Turnpike or in So. NJ, it's easier to just drive to Hamilton station and take NJ Transit than reach PHL or 30th Street, to reach EWR. Many that go international and may have more luggage also just drive up (or someone drops them) all the way to EWR.

[Edited 2013-01-05 10:21:39]

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: bmacleod
Posted 2013-01-05 10:40:03 and read 16024 times.

Any former CO Canadian routes in danger such as EWR-YHZ and EWR-YOW?

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: STT757
Posted 2013-01-05 10:46:05 and read 15754 times.

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 51):
Any former CO Canadian routes in danger such as EWR-YHZ and EWR-YOW?

Obviously not, especially since those are covered under the UA/AC joint venture. UA is growing in Canada.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2013-01-05 10:47:15 and read 15749 times.

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 14):
Not anymore, unfortunately. Besides, it was just an aircraft re position with no real benefit to pax heading to central and south america.

TULMIA is in there next week, so it is still flying. However, yes, it is mainly just there to move a/c around.

Quoting Aerowrench (Reply 18):
Any idea when AA has planned the start date for this?

April is when the 3rd AA OKC-LAX CR7 will start.

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 25):
OKC is a larger city (by around 330k people (or 34% larger than TUL in population)) that is booming, while TUL is relatively stagnant. Not really surprising that OKC is supporting more flights/routes. OKC and TUL are no longer twins, haven't been for some years now.

This. OKC has been booming and TUL has been struggling to get any traction.

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 36):
Simple, OKC > TUL...the pax numbers and mainline levels are proving it. And AA is adding a third n/s to LAX later this year, we have SFO service on UA that TUL doesn't...we have BWI/MCI service and 2x daily on LAS that TUL doesn't...and we have DL mainline to ATL...IIRC, TUL only has RJ's.

TUL to ATL on DL is currently 1 738, 1 319, 2 CR9s, and a CR7. So they've kept up there.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: MasseyBrown
Posted 2013-01-05 10:49:31 and read 15727 times.

Quoting GSPflyer (Reply 45):
Surprised GSP-CLE is staying.

Actually, it doesn't look like UA is cutting anything from CLE

An important customer must want CLE-GSP to stay. In the usual January reductions, UA is slimming many of the smaller CLE-xxx spoke routes and it appears some of them will not be restored in Feb/Mar when they normally add back Jan reductions.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: mah4546
Posted 2013-01-05 11:24:50 and read 15111 times.

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 14):
Not anymore, unfortunately. Besides, it was just an aircraft re position with no real benefit to pax heading to central and south america.

AA absolutely still flies MIATUL. It operated this morning - AA 580.

It's not a repositioning flight, it's timed very well for Tulsans heading to Miami or on a cruise.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: BA0197
Posted 2013-01-05 12:01:30 and read 14504 times.

And it seemingly appears that UA continues to shrink at IAH. FWI: UA has closed their checkin stands at Terminal A, so maybe we should expect less depatures from that terminal. I know that they have already reduced their presence by 1? gate.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-05 12:06:16 and read 14351 times.

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 56):

Not necessarily, UA has done some up gauges at IAH.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: BA0197
Posted 2013-01-05 12:14:25 and read 14210 times.

Quoting AVENSAB727 (Reply 57):

Ok, they have increased the frequency of LHR (seats only increase by 10 or something as a result of the down-gauge).

It is also my impression that UA is making IAH an Airbus hub. (Just an impression of what I've been seeing at work) so some increase in capacity there. But, I really cant quote anything that has been taken as a true upgauge. Do correct if I'm wrong.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: STT757
Posted 2013-01-05 12:20:25 and read 14167 times.

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 58):
But, I really cant quote anything that has been taken as a true upgauge.
IAH-LIM going from a 757 to a 767-300, IAH-GIG going from a 764 to a 777. IAH-GRU going from a 762 to a 763, IAH-EZE going from a 762 to a 763, IAH-AMS going from a 764 to a 777, IAH-BOG going from 2x daily 73G to 2x daily 757.

[Edited 2013-01-05 12:21:09]

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: FlyingSicilian
Posted 2013-01-05 12:20:54 and read 14170 times.

Quoting AVENSAB727 (Reply 57):
Not necessarily, UA has done some up gauges at IAH.

They have cut actually cities Del Rio, Paris, Victoria (albeit with some little prop job flying it now for the airport), beaumont (bus) and now CID with several others rumoured to be on the chopping blocks.

Overall service and cities have been reduced in many markets. You can call it "right sizing" if it makes you feel better.
They did add a freq to Midland...

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-01-05 12:27:04 and read 14061 times.

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 60):
You can call it "right sizing" if it makes you feel better.

It's called cutting your nose off to spite your face, since they didn't get their way re: HOU, which is super brilliant in the most dynamic city in the most dynamic state in the US. Since their temper tantrum they've gotten PEK, IST, a 380 to FRA, and more DL/AA flights, never mind several new destinations on WN at HOU.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: BA0197
Posted 2013-01-05 12:28:35 and read 14007 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 59):

Thank you for pointing those out to me. Interesting how all (but AMS) are to SA. Domestically UA is starting to feel the pressures of their other hubs and hubs of other airlines. And UA to Europe from IAH is truly pathetic.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: LHCVG
Posted 2013-01-05 12:31:06 and read 13984 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 52):
Quoting bmacleod (Reply 51):Any former CO Canadian routes in danger such as EWR-YHZ and EWR-UA/AC joint venture. UA is growing in Canada.

The only things in danger there are the ERJs plying those routes, if UA were to decide to u/g to CR7s or E70s.  biggrin 

[Edited 2013-01-05 12:33:06]

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: STT757
Posted 2013-01-05 12:41:28 and read 13902 times.

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 62):
Thank you for pointing those out to me. Interesting how all (but AMS) are to SA.

I forgot one, IAH-HNL going from a 764 to a 777.

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 62):
And UA to Europe from IAH is truly pathetic.

Five daily UA flights from IAH to Europe, LHR 3, AMS 1, FRA 1. CO never had that more than that, I think a lot of this has to do with (mis) perceptions. Which goes back to two things, losing the Headquarters to Chicago and that whole tissy fit about WN and HOU and UA's threats. In reality as I pointed out IAH's present and future as a UA hub is not bleak as many would have folks believe.

Some might have to do with the economy, and a calculated re-evaluation of the merits of all the hubs combined into a single entity. IAH is not going anywhere, they are in great shape going forward. They're shrinking in some areas and growing in others. UA's flying 2 daily 757s into LGA, something CO hasn't done since 1994. They're flying 757s into SAN, SEA etc.. Lots more capacity into ORD, DEN, IAD, SFO etc..

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: BA0197
Posted 2013-01-05 12:46:54 and read 13722 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 64):

I stand rebut, and I do tend to agree with your explanations. I am however surprised to see that IAH-Europe is as small as it is. No CDG, FCO, MAD, BCN, but I am no expert in UA route assignments. Perhaps these routes are better served through EWR and IAD, just surprising that no attempt was made since the merger.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: LHCVG
Posted 2013-01-05 12:49:57 and read 13708 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 64):
Five daily UA flights from IAH to Europe, LHR 3, AMS 1, FRA 1. CO never had that more than that, I think a lot of this has to do with (mis) perceptions. Which goes back to two things, losing the Headquarters to Chicago and that whole tissy fit about WN and HOU and UA's threats. In reality as I pointed out IAH's present and future as a UA hub is not bleak as many would have folks believe.

Some might have to do with the economy, and a calculated re-evaluation of the merits of all the hubs combined into a single entity. IAH is not going anywhere, they are in great shape going forward. They're shrinking in some areas and growing in others. UA's flying 2 daily 757s into LGA, something CO hasn't done since 1994. They're flying 757s into SAN, SEA etc.. Lots more capacity into ORD, DEN, IAD, SFO etc..

Yup, nothing to be ashamed of here for IAH at all. I think IAH-Europe just has to face the fact that many routes are very easy to connect through either ORD or EWR, which aren't all that far off the path of an IAH-Europe flight.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-01-05 12:50:44 and read 13702 times.

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 65):
I am however surprised to see that IAH-Europe is as small as it is. No CDG, FCO, MAD, BCN

Europe is down the drain right now. NYC can barely support BCN/FCO/MAD year round on US carriers. AF is dropping a handful of destinations in the Winter and/or handing them over to DL. It's not a pretty picture.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: JasonCRH
Posted 2013-01-05 13:03:03 and read 13465 times.

it's not flying September or October, as announced when the flight was announced. Back in November.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 35):

They are axing FLL-SFO? Didn't they just start or up frequency on this route?

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: STT757
Posted 2013-01-05 13:04:32 and read 13491 times.

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 65):

I stand rebut, and I do tend to agree with your explanations. I am however surprised to see that IAH-Europe is as small as it is. No CDG, FCO, MAD, BCN, but I am no expert in UA route assignments. Perhaps these routes are better served through EWR and IAD, just surprising that no attempt was made since the merger.

Both DL and UA both suspended FCO from EWR and JFK for the Winter, no Rome flights from New Jersey or New York on a US carrier is like no US carriers flying to Mexico from IAH or Brazil from MIA. The European economy is doing terrible, making the US and all of our fiscal cliff/debt limit nonsense look good. IAH has 5 daily UA flights to Europe, plus LH's A380s, BA's flights, Air France, KLM, Turkish, SQ to Moscow etc.. They're doing pretty darn good!

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-01-05 13:12:29 and read 13328 times.

Quoting lat41 (Reply 23):

Schedules at many of their meduim cities are withering instead of strengthening since Continited came to be.

You have to realize that UA is a business. It was well known that you would see cuts in the system when there is consolidation. The resources of the company should be put to where they will make the most money and that is how a good business should operate. Now, how they make those profits are up to the managers and they are the ones making the decisions about the allocation of the resources that need to be used to make the company run.

Now when it comes to certain air routes that are not making money, the airline is not responsible for those who are not getting their way by having service they want. If you want the service, then you need to make sure that there are people other than your self flying on that flight.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-05 13:40:36 and read 12862 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 64):

Very well said!

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2013-01-05 15:26:07 and read 11449 times.

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 36):
and we have DL mainline to ATL...IIRC, TUL only has RJ's.

right now ATL-TUL is 1x CR7, 2x CR9 1x 319 1x 73W

Summer time
ATL-OKC 2x CR9 3x M88
ATL-TUL 3x CR7 1x CR9 1x M88

(OKC is CRJ to MSP and CR7/CR9 to DTW/SLC, TUL is the same but less flights.)

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: steeler83
Posted 2013-01-05 15:45:19 and read 11234 times.

At first, I was rather shocked at the PHL-EWR cut, but after reading the posts about Amtrak and NJ Transit, it does make sense. My wife and I actually took the train from Hamilton, NJ to New York. We didn't fly out of EWR as we were meeting hear parents in the Big Apple, but I did notice how quickly we made it to the EWR station for the air-train link to the terminal(s). I kinda wish they'd build a similar facility at CLE. Doesn't the track used by Amtrak run right past the grounds at CLE? The unfortunate thing is Amtrak only has the Lakeshore and Capitol running through there, and both come through in the middle of the night...

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: CIDFlyer
Posted 2013-01-05 16:09:54 and read 10860 times.

Quoting Aerowrench (Thread starter):
Along with the following city pairs beginning in April. These will be reflected in the schedule being loaded 12 January.

IAH-CID (Cedar Rapids, Iowa)


bummer to see this one go away but I have been holding my breath on this one for a while. Started at 2x daily then went to 1x about a year later.

[quote=Kcrwflyer,reply=1]Didn't they just start CID-IAH not too long ago? Maybe I'm thinking of another route. IAD-MHT is somewhat of a surprise.
route started in May of 2011, so will barely make it 2 years. I'm surprised it didnt do better, UA has always been one of the main players here at CID, and IAH was a good spot for making southern/Gulf Coast connections and to Mexico. Maybe they can bring it back when things improve.

Quoting iowaman (Reply 12):

Unfortunate to see this one go. While only a small portion of the seats out of CID, enplanements are up double digts in CID last year and this won't help for 2013.

Probably in the grand scheme of things it wont be too much of a loss. It does stink we lose a hub option, but the route was down to 1x daily, and DL is upping ATL to 3x daily this summer, as well as F9 is bringing in A320's, so that should offset the seats.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 30):
IAH-CID is too bad. I'd like to see UA expand IAH flights into the Midwest like AA has done with DFW.

I would have liked to see more IAH expansion from UA in the midwest as well, its a shame it didnt work out, but it seems like DFW has a lock on the midwest to Texas traffic. Still a little puzzling that CID-DFW does so well with multiple flights and CID-IAH could barely have 1 flight a day with CID being a strong UA market. I suppose business ties between CID-DFW are much stronger than IAH-CID.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: capitalflyer
Posted 2013-01-05 16:21:17 and read 10709 times.

Quoting Aerowrench (Thread starter):
IAD-MHT (Manchester, N.H.)

Surprised there are still flights to CLE. Being a smaller NE city I would have thought that they would pair down to just ORD and IAD for connections. EWR is a needed NY connection.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: surfandsnow
Posted 2013-01-05 22:57:01 and read 9281 times.

None of this is surprising.

Quoting Aerowrench (Thread starter):
EWR-PHL (Philadelphia)

The only question I ask is: why wasn't this cut sooner? I should imagine these flights are delayed or canceled more often than they go out on time, driving up costs significantly - think meal vouchers, hotels, and rebooking last minute on other airlines. Also the obvious fact that there would be no O&D, just low-yielding connections beyond EWR. I would imagine they've had to charge some very low fares to get folks in PHL to connect through EWR! Not to mention the opportunity cost of the scarce EWR slots - I'm sure they will be put to MUCH better use now.

Quoting Aerowrench (Thread starter):
ORD-SJU (San Juan, Puerto Rico)

AA and UA have both slashed capacity on this route in recent years. A few years ago you had something like 2-3 daily AA 757s and the daily UA A320, now AA is down to a daily 738 and UA is cutting the route completely. Something tells me AA only manages because it offers connections beyond SJU to places very popular with the Chicagoans like STT, EIS, and PUJ. Puerto Rico simply isn't the major tourist draw it once was (it seems CUN has largely replaced SJU as that big south of the border destination), and there isn't a notable Puerto Rican population in Chicago to provide VFR traffic. However, I wonder if this isn't reason for WN/FL or even B6 to start a CHI-SJU service now.

Quoting Aerowrench (Thread starter):
IAD-MHT (Manchester, N.H.)

I thought PMUA was pretty strong in MHT, but I guess IAD may be a hard sell when you get into the heart of D.C. on US or get low fares to the area on WN. Any connections you used to do via IAD (Florida, Caribbean, Europe, etc.) can be done through EWR.

Quoting Aerowrench (Thread starter):
IAD-PNS (Pensacola, Fla.)

I would imagine US's new DCA-PNS flights took away much of the D.C. government/military traffic that this flight relied upon. I doubt the Redneck Riviera, err Florida Panhandle, is a big draw for the well-heeled NoVa/Maryland crowd (the very wealthy D.C. suburbs that would find IAD to be more convenient than DCA), or any markets that would provide substantial connecting feed at IAD such as BOS and NYC...

Quoting Aerowrench (Thread starter):
IAH-CID (Cedar Rapids, Iowa)

I never understood the rationale behind this. Sure, UA has a great FF base in CID. Connecting through ORD puts Boston, New York, D.C., Florida, and Europe within easy reach. Connecting through DEN puts Arizona, Vegas, the West Coast, and Hawaii within easy reach. IAH didn't add many meaningful options for CID fliers - how many folks in Eastern Iowa regularly visit MGA or BTR?

Quoting Aerowrench (Thread starter):
LAX-TUL (Tulsa, Okla.)

This is the third time this route has failed in the past decade or so. AA was flying it with MD-80s before 9/11 (and maybe for a bit after), then UAX twice attempted it with the CR7. I guess the airport could always entice AA to try it once again, but if it didn't work for UA, I don't think AA will see any reason to bother with it. The on again, off again nature of this route is hardly unfamiliar to Tulsans, though - they endured the same thing with various incarnations of F9 service to DEN as well  .

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
Port-au-Prince, Haiti

The majority of Haitians/Haitian-Americans in the New York area live in Brooklyn and Queens. Obviously those folks will be much more inclined to use the AA and DL options from JFK rather than trying to get across Manhattan to take UA out of EWR. New Jersey is actually home to the fourth largest Haitian diaspora population (after Florida, New York, and Boston), but I guess it wasn't enough to sustain this flight.

Oh well, maybe this is a great opportunity for B6 to start PAP services.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
Willemstad, Curacao

Plenty of UA service left to nearby AUA, and some to BON as well. I don't think Curacao is a very big draw for American tourists anyway.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
Del Rio, Texas

A lot of the Mexican border towns are among the poorest places in the entire country. I bet most people in Del Rio could never afford a plane ticket..

Quoting PacificClipper (Reply 24):
Also seems like SFO-FLL is discontinued on 8/26.

They just announced it, and now it is already ending? LOL, maybe it is "seasonal". Or else it was a complete disaster, with VX and B6 well established on the route and AA offering plenty of service on the SFO-MIA route. Either way, it was a foolish way to retaliate against VX's new EWR flights. I can only imagine what will happen when VX starts flying to Houston...

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: mah4546
Posted 2013-01-06 02:20:54 and read 9086 times.

Quoting surfandsnow (Reply 76):
but if it didn't work for UA, I don't think AA will see any reason to bother with it.

AA is very strong in Tulsa and just as strong as UA in Los Angeles. It's a good fit for AA, and it has been rumored to launch this summer. This might just be the push to get AA in.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: FlyingSicilian
Posted 2013-01-06 07:15:24 and read 8677 times.

Quoting surfandsnow (Reply 76):
A lot of the Mexican border towns are among the poorest places in the entire country. I bet most people in Del Rio could never afford a plane ticket..

Lovely, the same could be said for plenty of places, however Del Rio, and Laughlin AFB generate a fair amount of air traffic. Just witness the shuttles that used to take people to SAT for flights.

It seems the government tickets were not enough to keep the route going however. I flew this route a few times and tickets were relatively expensive. You paid for the convience of flying directly in and not having to drive to SAT or even SJT on rare occasions for me. You are correct in that the VFR crowd would not be willing to pay the high premium for the local flight but the business and gov't fliers in the area found it very popular. Just not enough to make money with the current aircraft it seems. Still sad to see it go.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: jfklganyc
Posted 2013-01-06 07:40:14 and read 8546 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 40):
AA has been leasing excess EWR slots to UA and Porter, now AA is going to lease them to VX so UA is losing those ten leased 10 slots. Also related to VX, UA is boosting EWR-LAX and EWR-SFO frequencies quite a bit. Those will obviously require some additional slots. They've decided to fund those needs with the PHL slots.

Excellent news for EWR and shows the problems with slot squatting.

Losing 10 ridiculous flights that are 20 minutes long and gaining 10 long haul, mainline flights on a LCC. The customer wins

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: jayunited
Posted 2013-01-06 07:47:11 and read 8498 times.

United's ORD-SJU flight has been loosing money for years despite having very high load factors. The reason behind it is because its a huge leisure market so you have a lot of price sensitive customers who don't want to spend a lot of money for a ticket, first class is completely filled with upgrades and when you combine those factors with the price of fuel along with a flight time of 4:45 minutes its no surprise that United is leaving the ORD-SJU market. AA has also done a huge reduction in this market as well. When jet fuel prices were lower AA used to run 3 non stops daily to SJU from ORD and on the weekend they had 5 or 6 nonstops. AA is now down to 1 daily nonstop and 2 nonstops on the weekend. Both United and American in the past have tried to raise ticket prices on this route without success because customers were not willing to pay the higher fares, so both airlines were left with no choice except to cut ORD-SJU frequencies and now in United's case there is no choice except to leave this market.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: COEWR787
Posted 2013-01-06 08:00:02 and read 8370 times.

Quoting deltairlines (Reply 3):
Quoting Aerowrench (Thread starter):
EWR-PHL (Philadelphia)

With the Amtrak deal, makes much more sense to throw passengers on a Keystone train from Center City than schlep to the airport and fly 15 minutes between two delay prone airports. It's quicker from downtown to EWR on Amtrak than it is on the plane.

The code share is on Northeast Regionals, not on Keystones. Actually mot Keystones do not stop at EWR.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2013-01-06 08:21:15 and read 8267 times.

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 74):
I would have liked to see more IAH expansion from UA in the midwest as well, its a shame it didnt work out, but it seems like DFW has a lock on the midwest to Texas traffic. Still a little puzzling that CID-DFW does so well with multiple flights and CID-IAH could barely have 1 flight a day with CID being a strong UA market. I suppose business ties between CID-DFW are much stronger than IAH-CID.

Theres a huge reason for it, the demand for smaller midwestern cities in Texas is to Dallas not Houston. Its all about local demand and then geography is a big reason too.

In the case of CID, DFW is the 3rd largest O&D market to CID after LAS and PHX (and those markets are highly seasonal). DFW is the largest business air market from CID. Also, DFW is the largest air market in the US for many other cities in the Midwest which AA serves (MHK, GCK, RAP) and top 5 for others (FSD, DSM, CMI, SPI).

Dallas has always really been the Texas gateway to the Midwest and the Heartland. By the same token, Houston can support smaller cities in Central America that DFW cant for the same reasons.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 61):
It's called cutting your nose off to spite your face, since they didn't get their way re: HOU, which is super brilliant in the most dynamic city in the most dynamic state in the US. Since their temper tantrum they've gotten PEK, IST, a 380 to FRA, and more DL/AA flights, never mind several new destinations on WN at HOU.

Im sorry, but I dont buy that. Look at what UA cut vs. whats been added by other carriers. UA was never flying to IST or PEK from IAH and no other carrier has come in to add to what UA has cut.

UA raised a big tantrum no doubt, but all the WN/HOU situation was an excuse to cut what was already bleeding anyway and make it appear like it was the city of Houston's fault.

I was privy to numbers on the IAH-CDG flight a while back and it was losing money even when CO was in SkyTeam. I even came on a.net and said so before it was cut and got jumped on for it. Its no surprise it went even further south when they left. IAH-LHR/IAH-AMS have always raked in cash for UA/CO and not surprisingly they are still priorities for the carrier. IAH-CDG never really did well for CO and did worse for UA.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: CIDFlyer
Posted 2013-01-06 08:38:33 and read 8193 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 82):

Theres a huge reason for it, the demand for smaller midwestern cities in Texas is to Dallas not Houston. Its all about local demand and then geography is a big reason too.

In the case of CID, DFW is the 3rd largest O&D market to CID after LAS and PHX (and those markets are highly seasonal). DFW is the largest business air market from CID. Also, DFW is the largest air market in the US for many other cities in the Midwest which AA serves (MHK, GCK, RAP) and top 5 for others (FSD, DSM, CMI, SPI).

Dallas has always really been the Texas gateway to the Midwest and the Heartland. By the same token, Houston can support smaller cities in Central America that DFW cant for the same reasons.

definitely agree with you on that one, just comparing route maps between AA/UA, DFW supports so many smaller/mid sized midwest destinations and IAH barely has any except for the bigger markets like OMA/DSM/MCI etc. CID was probably the only small/mid sized heartland market being served from IAH. I'm hoping once AA gets its situation ironed out and can get some larger RJ's that we can maybe see them throw some larger aircraft like a CR7 or E70. Speaking for CID itself two of the largest corporations here in town, Rockwell Collins and Transamerica also have locations in Dallas that feeds traffic. There are also alot of "human ties" as well between CID and DFW more so than IAH, seems like someone always knows someone here who lives in the Dallas area.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: Joeljack
Posted 2013-01-06 08:43:16 and read 8188 times.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 80):
United's ORD-SJU flight has been loosing money for years despite having very high load factors. The reason behind it is because its a huge leisure market so you have a lot of price sensitive customers who don't want to spend a lot of money for a ticket, first class is completely filled with upgrades and when you combine those factors with the price of fuel along with a flight time of 4:45 minutes its no surprise that United is leaving the ORD-SJU market. AA has also done a huge reduction in this market as well. When jet fuel prices were lower AA used to run 3 non stops daily to SJU from ORD and on the weekend they had 5 or 6 nonstops. AA is now down to 1 daily nonstop and 2 nonstops on the weekend. Both United and American in the past have tried to raise ticket prices on this route without success because customers were not willing to pay the higher fares, so both airlines were left with no choice except to cut ORD-SJU frequencies and now in United's case there is no choice except to leave this market.

This route cut surprises me. I've flown this a few times in the past couple of years. I look it up and once was $550 and the other time was $790. This route is never cheap and the flights are always full!!! I'm sad to see this go, what a pain to get to SJU now.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: AVLAirlineFreq
Posted 2013-01-06 08:59:34 and read 8103 times.

DRT is an interesting case study where the arrival of ExpressJet service last year helped boost passenger traffic at the airport to 23,043 in 2012, an increase of 66.5%--but the use of 50-seat CRJs instead of Colgan's Saabs may have been an ironic death blow given current airline economics.

Given the proximity of Laughlin AFB to DRT, it will be interesting to see if AA decides to serve the market. (SAT is about a 2.5 hour drive.)

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-01-06 09:22:08 and read 7990 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 82):
Im sorry, but I dont buy that. Look at what UA cut vs. whats been added by other carriers. UA was never flying to IST or PEK from IAH and no other carrier has come in to add to what UA has cut.

It's really not about the specific destinations. Texas is on fire; so is the neighbor to the south--AA is growing DFW, AUS is growing like a weed, IAH/HOU are getting new service on OA left and right, and yet UA has added new destinations to every hub except IAH, in several rounds. Everyone sees opportunity in IAH except for UA. Must be that stellar IL economy 

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-06 09:30:34 and read 7954 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 86):

They will add routes soon, I heard IAH-SCL is one of them, and some of those new routes are routes already served by IAH by UA.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: STT757
Posted 2013-01-06 09:43:13 and read 7874 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 86):
yet UA has added new destinations to every hub except IAH, in several rounds.

They're bringing back Rapid City from IAH.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: drerx7
Posted 2013-01-06 09:45:00 and read 7869 times.

Quoting AVENSAB727 (Reply 87):
They will add routes soon, I heard IAH-SCL is one of them, and some of those new routes are routes already served by IAH by UA.

But you don't have any inside information on that unfortunately. IAH-SCL has not been a rumor that has come from any really credible sources. We all are rooting for it and I'm sure it will happen in due course, but I don't know how imminent it is. I agree with MaverickM11 on this. UA is the one sleeping at the wheel on IAH right now. Honestly, I am not complaining. WN has grown HOU significantly since the UA/WN/HOU issue; we have seen NK enter the market, Air China appears to be on the horizon, Turkish starts IST, and AA starts JFK. Even with that said we have seen upgauges from UA on many routes albeit at the expense of frequency.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-06 09:58:15 and read 7795 times.

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 89):

I see, but I think UA is getting the merger stuff finished first, and then routes and such will be a priority. And IAH is not the only hub.

[Edited 2013-01-06 09:59:40]

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2013-01-06 12:19:14 and read 7515 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 86):
It's really not about the specific destinations. Texas is on fire; so is the neighbor to the south--AA is growing DFW, AUS is growing like a weed, IAH/HOU are getting new service on OA left and right, and yet UA has added new destinations to every hub except IAH, in several rounds. Everyone sees opportunity in IAH except for UA.

But you also have to think about why. AA is growing DFW right now because it really couldnt before. They are in Chapter 11 and getting costs down. With lower costs certain international destinations (like ICN, LIM, and BOG) make sense from DFW when they might not have before. Also, now that AA can use other regional providers destinations like FAR can work. Had AA never filed for Chapter 11, they wouldnt be expanding DFW like that.

As for IAH, UA never would have served IST from there and probably not PEK either. I think the specific destinations are a big part of it. Texas is on fire right now and Houston is a very large part of it, but that doesnt mean that destinations like DRT or ACT can support IAH service. Its not so much with Houston as it is with those towns.

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 83):
Speaking for CID itself two of the largest corporations here in town, Rockwell Collins and Transamerica also have locations in Dallas that feeds traffic. There are also alot of "human ties" as well between CID and DFW more so than IAH, seems like someone always knows someone here who lives in the Dallas area.

I have a client in Dallas that sends about 10 people to CID a week all last minute. They routinely pay $1000-1200 per ticket. Cedar Rapids definitely has a lot of ties to the DFW area as well as Denver and Chicago which are the largest business destinations from Eastern Iowa.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-01-06 13:55:02 and read 7343 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 91):
AA is growing DFW right now because it really couldnt before. They are in Chapter 11 and getting costs down.

They're growing DFW much more than all of their other hubs, and that comes at the expense of....?

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 91):
Texas is on fire right now and Houston is a very large part of it, but that doesnt mean that destinations like DRT or ACT can support IAH service.

You don't think it's odd that every other hub has multiple new destinations but not IAH?

Quoting STT757 (Reply 88):
They're bringing back Rapid City from IAH

Never fear UA FFers, they're bringing an RJ back!

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-06 14:09:50 and read 7255 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 92):

Some of those new destinations are already served at IAH. And many are on RJs.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-01-06 14:13:38 and read 7245 times.

Quoting AVENSAB727 (Reply 93):
Some of those new destinations are already served at IAH. And many are on RJs.

What new destinations, new since the HOU meltdown?

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-06 14:17:36 and read 7204 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 94):

I meant the new routes out of other hubs. Some of those bare already served by IAH.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: crj900lr
Posted 2013-01-06 18:53:23 and read 6816 times.

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 32):
Also US flies this at least 5x a day. And these flts had a horrible ontime percentage. I think many of them were in the 60-70% range.

Yep and they are always oversold, weight restricted, or delayed by ATC.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: apodino
Posted 2013-01-07 08:59:07 and read 6225 times.

You wonder with the slot transaction and US able to provide better service to DCA from a region of the country that is arguably their strongest (The Northeast) if UA just is having a hard time competing from IAD where they may not be as strong or if there are Star Alliance factors at play here (Given the potential AA merger, that seems unlikely). UA can route a lot of the connections being lost at IAD through EWR. While US could in theory do the same with PHL over DCA, the one x factor is the fact that High Yield passengers will almost always pick DCA over IAD when they get a chance. The UA IAD hub makes sense from a transatlantic standpoint and a long haul standpoint, but UA is just going to have a hard time attracting the types of high yield passengers on shorter haul routes to make IAD work in the long run.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: capitalflyer
Posted 2013-01-08 17:55:42 and read 5681 times.

Quoting apodino (Reply 97):
UA can route a lot of the connections being lost at IAD through EWR

This seems to go against the general assumption that connecting traffic would move from slot controlled EWR to IAD which has tons of room to expand. Perhaps this plan won't fully be realized until they decide to build a new concourse at IAD that is more UEX connection friendly. So maybe 20 years!!!!

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: stock1985
Posted 2013-01-09 05:03:34 and read 5186 times.

The TUL-LAX cut is a bit of a surprise with the feed it provided to a strong destination and links to Asia and Oceania. I can understand why the route has experienced difficulty in sustained revenue as UA has not been consistent with flight timings and days of the week the flight operates (appeared to operate around 3-4x per week with no consistency). These inconsistencies have made the flight difficult to book, ie I need to do LAX-TUL on Monday evening, however, flight doesn't operate. For this flight to appeal to FFlyers, it needs to be at least double daily providing convenient schedules to both TUL & LAX origin pax. The nonstop cuts nearly 2 hours off the fly time, so it is a huge advantage. I have always wondered why AA hasn't jumped on this route when they started their CRJ LAX expansion, it is a huge gap in their 'cornerstone' hub strategy. I certainly hope they add this key route.

Honestly, I am surprised that IAD remains as often the CRJ700 was tied to IAD rotations. I wonder how IAD, at the same distance, performs. It is our only nonstop link to DC.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: STT757
Posted 2013-01-09 05:09:31 and read 5169 times.

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 98):
Perhaps this plan won't fully be realized until they decide to build a new concourse at IAD that is more UEX connection friendly.

But that's only to improve the current facilities, it's not necessarily make IAD make convenient than DCA to area business travelers. Neither will the Silver line expansion. As with JFK and LGA, IAD is always going to be at some disadvantage on these short-medium range domestic flights vs. DCA.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2013-01-09 08:06:14 and read 4854 times.

Quoting stock1985 (Reply 99):
The TUL-LAX cut is a bit of a surprise with the feed it provided to a strong destination and links to Asia and Oceania.

It's loads have really been hit or miss, while it was terrible during the slow season the Spring/Summer weren't horrid. For 2012, with data available, Jan = 44%, Feb = 39%, Mar = 60%, Apr = 55%, May = 73%, Jun = 68%.

Compare to OKC on AA which is in the mid 50s in the winter to mid 80s in Spring. UA from OKC is about the same as in TUL, at twice the frequency (soon going to 3x daily). My guess is the yields from OKC are vastly superior and that is why they are able to keep those going.

Quoting stock1985 (Reply 99):
Honestly, I am surprised that IAD remains as often the CRJ700 was tied to IAD rotations. I wonder how IAD, at the same distance, performs. It is our only nonstop link to DC.

IAD looks much better for TUL, average load factor is around 68%...10 pts higher overall.

Topic: RE: United Drops Several Markets Effective April 2013
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-09 16:04:18 and read 4471 times.

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 89):

UA is not perfect, but I think they will still grow IAH step by step.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 92):
Quoting STT757 (Reply 88):
They're bringing back Rapid City from IAH

Never fear UA FFers, they're bringing an RJ back!

But it is still a new route.


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