http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/sides...lta-baggage-leevees-214634001.html

Curious if they put it in the wrong place on the jet bridge. I am confused by the photo.

Quoting YYZAMS (Thread starter): I am confused by the photo.

The "shelf" shown is part of an elevator used to bring pink tagged CRJ bags up to inside of the jetway.

Where's the YouTube video and snarky song? If this were UA, it'd have already circled the web several times over. Lesson to be learned: don't tote a $10K guitar on an airplane, or if you do, at least make sure you've insured it for $10K.

777fan

I am confused as to why the DL agents made him check in the guitar? Especially at check-in. It is standard policy to allow instruments (especially guitars) on-board as a carry-on item. Unless he had more than two pieces of luggage, I don't know why they would make him do that. Very strange.

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 4): I am confused as to why the DL agents made him check in the guitar?

Can a guitar be stowed anywhere in a CRJ-200 cabin?

Quoting DL_Mech (Reply 5):

Surely there are the closets as well as the overhead lockers (guitars can fit in CRJ700s which have the same overhead locker style). Doesn't explain why he had to checkin the guitar at checkin

Quoting 777fan (Reply 3): Where's the YouTube video and snarky song? If this were UA, it'd have already circled the web several times over. Lesson to be learned: don't tote a $10K guitar on an airplane, or if you do, at least make sure you've insured it for $10K.

LOL there's a link to it in the video. Just saw it for the first time and loved it   (the song, not the experience)

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 4): It is standard policy to allow instruments (especially guitars) on-board as a carry-on item.

No it's not.

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 6): Surely there are the closets as well as the overhead lockers

No there isn't, not on the CRJ-200.

While I hope the customer is made whole and satisfied, there seems to be a mentality that a musical instrument of any size should be allowed to be carried on. The owner, especially in the case of professional musicians, should be buying a proper crush resistant (nothing is crush PROOF) case that allows them to properly check the oversized item. Even bringing the item onboard to take up an entire overhead bin is rude and inconsiderate of others seated around you.

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 4): I am confused as to why the DL agents made him check in the guitar? Especially at check-in.

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 6): Doesn't explain why he had to checkin the guitar at checkin

I do not think the guitar was checked-in at the check-in counter.
Look at the video... It was on the cart with bags to be retrieved planeside. That means it was gate checked because it would not fit on a CRJ overhead cabin.

Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 9):

This makes much more sense. I am surprised there was not room for it in the aircraft however. I've never work an AE flight where the FA were not very accommodating with guitars.

However, if the guitar was so valuable why travel with it? If necessary purchase a crush restraint (as mentioned) or buy it a seat.

Quoting toltommy (Reply 8):

As per Delta.com:

What Instruments Can I Carry On?

Guitars and other smaller musical instruments, such as violins, will be accepted as your free carry-on baggage item on Delta and Delta Connection® carriers flights¹. These items must easily fit in the overhead bin or other approved storage location in the cabin, based on available space at the time of boarding. Musical instruments may be gate claimed at the discretion of the passenger and as a result of limited overhead space.


As far as I know all US airlines allow guitars to be brought on-board as a carry-on item. I know that on Eagle flights, if we have a guitar we pull other people's bags off to be valeted, always keeping the guitar on-board.

In all, bad rap on Delta in my opinion. Although they have done nothing technically wrong. They are not liable to any damages caused by the normal process of airline baggage. Feel bad for the gentleman involved.

I work the ramp and shake my head whenever I see a guitar in a regular case, checked or as carry on. We treat guitars very carefully but it's just too easy for it to be dropped on a slippery ramp, fall off a belt or cart, or fall/be crushed by shifting bags in the hold.

[Edited 2013-01-05 21:03:47]

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 5): Surely there are the closets as well as the overhead lockers (guitars can fit in CRJ700s which have the same overhead locker style)

Closets are only available on the CR7/9 style. And the CR1/2 don't have the same style overhead bins as the CR7/9s as I can fit my normal roller into a CR7/9 overhead bin vs the CR2 where the bin is much shorter in height and doesn't quite fit as the width of the bins is just a little too small.

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 9): In all, bad rap on Delta in my opinion

Pun intended?

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 9): I've never work an AE flight where the FA were not very accommodating with guitars.

F/As can be accomodating to a point. The nice thing about the ERJs is that they can accommodate a guitar in their forward closet, something in which the CR2 doesn't have. Plus the overhead bins are much deeper than those of the CR2.

What people are forgetting here is that the overhead bins in the CR2 can barely accommodate a backpack, let alone a guitar case. They had to gate check it.

Also, they refused a check written to them for a $1000 by the TPA baggage service according to the thread over in FT citing that they didn't know how much it would cost them to repair it. Delta is usually very good about taking care of situations like this and will have it resolved.

This is just another media blow up for something that will be handled. Thank you media.  

Quoting xjramper (Reply 11): Closets are only available on the CR7/9 style. And the CR1/2 don't have the same style overhead bins as the CR7/9s as I can fit my normal roller into a CR7/9 overhead bin vs the CR2 where the bin is much shorter in height and doesn't quite fit as the width of the bins is just a little too small.

Thank you for that correction. Bad of me to make assumptions.

Quoting xjramper (Reply 11): Pun intended?

Why not?  

Quoting 777fan (Reply 2): Where's the YouTube video and snarky song? If this were UA, it'd have already circled the web several times over. Lesson to be learned: don't tote a $10K guitar on an airplane, or if you do, at least make sure you've insured it for $10K. 777fan

Lol! How about a metal version.

I have brought my guitar on board and if its a CRJ they put it up front in that closet.

I bet they did it on purpose..... Those darn rampies!

Quoting Lono (Reply 14): I bet they did it on purpose..... Those darn rampies!

Hehehe .. heh .. he

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 10): I work the ramp and shake my head whenever I see a guitar in a regular case, checked or as carry on. We treat guitars very carefully but it's just too easy for it to be dropped on a slippery ramp, fall off a belt or cart, or fall/be crushed by shifting bags in the hold.

Totally agree with you. We always take care of everything, but things get broken now and than.

I expect a 'Delta Breaks Guitars' trilogy within the next few days   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YGc4zOqozo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-UoERHaSQg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P45E0uGVyeg

Florian  

Quoting toltommy (Reply 7): While I hope the customer is made whole and satisfied, there seems to be a mentality that a musical instrument of any size should be allowed to be carried on.

I sat next to a guy with a double bass a while back, he told me he always buys a seat for it, the bass was worth hundreds of thousands of dollars and was about 200 years old.

I think the main issue here is that the guitar was apparently thrown on the bag elevator without any regard to how it was positioned in the bin. As a former ramper myself, I think this is a station ramp issue and that the DL connection station at DTW should be held responsible for this. Whether or not DL "made" the customer check the bag is immaterial. Ultimately, this is a sign of not having enough people on the ramp to do a careful, considerate job of transferring valet-tagged bags from the plane to the gate. The regional side of most airlines is notoriously understaffed and rushed. When things like this happen, it's treated as an exception, but the reality is that efforts to slim down airport staffing always have an unintended side effect, and one day it's going to be even more serious than a smashed guitar.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 18): Ultimately, this is a sign of not having enough people on the ramp to do a careful, considerate job of transferring valet-tagged bags from the plane to the gate.

You have no way of knowing this. It could have been a simple mistake that the same employee would have done if well rested, or the same employee was fatigued due to non-work activities.

Quoting DL_Mech (Reply 1): The "shelf" shown is part of an elevator used to bring pink tagged CRJ bags up to inside of the jetway.

Seems the elevator is poorly designed if stuff can slip off of it and get jammed in between the elevator and the jetway.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 19): You have no way of knowing this. It could have been a simple mistake that the same employee would have done if well rested, or the same employee was fatigued due to non-work activities.

No, it's not possible to know for sure, but you see things like this, and it looks like a rush job. Also, where was the supervisor to ensure that the bags were being correctly loaded? Likely distracted by performing some other duty other than supervising. I still think this was a staffing and training issue (training is not just a one-time video but rather an on-going process involving careful supervision).

I'm kind of confused by this. I don't know all the circumstances here, but the pics make it look bad.. After all of the "United Breaks Guitars" mess, if the owner does not purchase an extra seat, we would hand carry the guitar from a/c to jetway (especially on a regional flight - where the original UBG took place) Most times, the FA would put the item in the closet (on a 145 or 170), but mostly the agents would carry it to the beltloader or just hand it to the person that is in the bin of the a/c. Since the video and all of the publicity behind, UA has very proactive in handling musical instruments with care. I've dealt with a lot of guitars since then, and try our best to make sure that the instrument is handled with extreme care and does not get broke.


BTW: the CR2 has no room at all. (full disclosure: I don't work on them since we don't have many of them coming to our hub) But on the ERJ, there is a closet where crew stows their bags. Usually the captain or a FA will be nice to stow it in there for the passenger. Same as the 170. Especially when there is heavy loads like last week.

For a guitar that expensive, the best thing is to travel with a hard case, instead of the soft one.

#1 Lesson here is hard case for a guitar. That has to be a must. In fact I feel like the owner is doing as much to contribute to the damage of the guitar as the airline did by not having a hard case.

Why can't they make a new case for hard plastic or metal?

Q

We always get demands by passengers traveling with their instruments that they want to take it on board. I've had a passenger with 2 big guitars demanding he take them both on board, next to his other carry on luggage. I've also once had the request if we could pre-heat the belly of an Avrojet (go figure..) to accommodate a cello that was sensitive to temperature! If it's so important, it might be an idea to buy an extra seat for your instrument.

In this case, it's extremely unfortunate for the passenger. But if the guitar is really worth 10K then why not ship it in a proper case and/or buy an extra seat..

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 21): For a guitar that expensive, the best thing is to travel with a hard case

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 22): #1 Lesson here is hard case for a guitar.

It's not clear to me from the picture if a hard case would have changed this particular outcome all that much.

My guess is that the guitar got caught between an elevator capable of lifting large amounts of baggage and the jetway.

Seems to me something would have to give, and I'm thinking it wouldn't be the jetway or the elevator.

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 24): If it's so important, it might be an idea to buy an extra seat for your instrument.

Indeed, I'd do that if my livelyhood depended on that one particular instrument, otherwise be damned sure to have insurance for full replacement value.

I don't think there was negligence on the rampers part at all. I think the guitar was loaded on the rolling cart (it's usually 2-3 shelves high with wheels on the bottom) on top of other bags (smart) and in the lift shaft it slid off the shelf and became wedged between the lift bottom (not the cart) and the sill of the jet-way. It's called an accident, not an on-purpose. But that's why DL is stepping in to fix the issue.

Go back to your homes; nothing more to see here.

So you have a 10k guitar and tote it around in soft case? That makes zero sense. I'd say that while DL gets the majority of the blame here you still need to put some blame on the owner for being so careless by not protecting his investment properly.

Why is everyone attacking DL on this? It was a DCI flight operated by a regional airline and when the plane landed in DTW, DGS handled the inbound flight... How is this Delta's fault?

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 28): How is this Delta's fault?

Because DL contracted these companies to operate on their behalf, using their branding and policies.

Quoting B727FA (Reply 26): I don't think there was negligence on the rampers part at all. I think the guitar was loaded on the rolling cart (it's usually 2-3 shelves high with wheels on the bottom) on top of other bags (smart) and in the lift shaft it slid off the shelf and became wedged between the lift bottom (not the cart) and the sill of the jet-way.

Thanks for filling in all the terminology that I couldn't come up with.

Quoting B727FA (Reply 26): It's called an accident, not an on-purpose. But that's why DL is stepping in to fix the issue.

I think there's a grey area between "on-purpose" and "accident", namely "negligence".

As above, to me the real issue is why someone whose livelihood depends on a particular instrument would trust it to others in the way he did. Either he should have taken better care of it (i.e. bought it a seat) or insured it for full replacement value (then the insurer could fight it out with DL and/or its contractees as to "negligence").

In one regard he's fortunate: the "United Breaks Guitars" incident has paved the way for him to have DL kissing his booty to get things resolved. For the rest of the world, it'd be "read the terms of carriage"...

A couple things to clarify:
That is a hard case in the picture, it is made from wood with a leather/vinyl cover and padding on the inside.
An ATA approved flight case will weigh a minimum of 15-20 pounds, without the guitar.
A 1965 335 in good shape would probably not be $10k, unless it had some very rare original features. $6-$7K is probably closer to the mark.
For comparison, a new 335 will cost $2500-$4000, depending on the features and model.

I have a question? Why didn't they walk it to the jetway instead if putting it in an elevator? And why do you need an elevator on a RJ gate? I'm still trying to figure this one out. Will someone please explain this?
I never used a gate elevator while doing an RJ.

Different question: what does the "I" in DCI as in Delta Connection stand for? I keep seeing this term on this board but never knew what that stood for.

I wonder if Ms. Irlweg still works for United (in the United Breaks Guitars video?

This makes the news?

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 32): I have a question? Why didn't they walk it to the jetway instead if putting it in an elevator? And why do you need an elevator on a RJ gate? I'm still trying to figure this one out. Will someone please explain this? I never used a gate elevator while doing an RJ. Different question: what does the "I" in DCI as in Delta Connection stand for? I keep seeing this term on this board but never knew what that stood for.

Hi Towbar, I'll see if I can help.

The jet way obviously connects to the a/c. Usually about 1/2 way into the jet way is a rolling overhead door--think like an old fashioned roll-top desk. Behind that is a shaft (like a dumbwaiter) with a flat bottom...the "lift" if you will.

Sitting on the lift/floor is a tall rolling cart--imagine like a bread rack you'd see in a bakery. On that cart people place the "valet bags," Pink-Tag bags, etc. during boarding.

The agent closes the rolltop door. The ramper pushes a "down" button from the outside. The lift (with cart) lowers from the floor level of the jetway to ramp level. Once there, a swinging door opens and the cart of bags is rolled from the shaft/lift to the bag compartments. The empty cart is stored in the shaft/lift assembly until needed again.

Upon arrival, the same is done in reverse to return bags to pax in the jetway. It eliminates the need to lift (usually over one's head) the gate-claim bags, use a belt loader to the top of the jetway, or running them up the steps...none of these options particularly good ones.

I hope that helps!

Finally, the DC"I" is "Incorporated" as a product "line" owned by DL and staffed with employees who oversee the entire "Delta Connection" product and deployment, so to speak. They are the ones who set service standards, fleet use, RFP's for new flying, etc. I'm over simplyfing this, but you get the idea. You might think of them as the "clearinghouse" for all things Delta Connection to/from the Mainline to the Regional Carriers.

Quoting B727FA (Reply 35): The lift (with cart) lowers from the floor level of the jetway to ramp level. Once there, a swinging door opens and the cart of bags is rolled from the shaft/lift to the bag compartments. The empty cart is stored in the shaft/lift assembly until needed again. Upon arrival, the same is done in reverse to return bags to pax in the jetway.

From the description in the article:

Quote: But as the musicians waited for the luggage to appear, they could hear a screeching noise coming from the elevator. "It was this crazy sound," Schneider said. "Metal on metal." The case carrying Schneider's semihollow-body guitar was lodged between the mobile service elevator and a rail on the loading dock, shaking the elevator door. The case even bent a steel beam. The guitar itself was pinned between two beams and took workers an hour to retrieve it. It sustained damage to the bridge, neck and tail that would cost an estimated $1,980.

So clearly this is the arrival scenario, where musicians are waiting for the elevator that is lifting stuff to the jetway.

Somehow the guitar case ended up "lodged between the mobile service elevator and a rail on the loading dock".

Any speculation as to how this would happen?

Seems to need to be a way for the guitar to come out of the elevator and get itself wedged into the structure while the elevator is still rising, which seems to be a poor design.

Note that a hard case must have been used since it bent a steel beam.

Quoting silentbob (Reply 31): A couple things to clarify: That is a hard case in the picture, it is made from wood with a leather/vinyl cover and padding on the inside. An ATA approved flight case will weigh a minimum of 15-20 pounds, without the guitar. A 1965 335 in good shape would probably not be $10k, unless it had some very rare original features. $6-$7K is probably closer to the mark. For comparison, a new 335 will cost $2500-$4000, depending on the features and model.

A vintage guitar could be that expensive if in good condition and if its a limited edition version.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 34): This makes the news?

Well, considering a.net has a four-part thread about a rumor of AA's plan to paint airplanes (indeed, no actual facts!), I'd think this shouldn't be a surprise for a.net.

As for the general public, I do think the media is trying to replay the "United Breaks Guitars" scenario to get ratings.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 20): Also, where was the supervisor to ensure that the bags were being correctly loaded? Likely distracted by performing some other duty other than supervising.

You think a supervisor's job is to just stand and watch people work? And, if he's at the jetbridge watching them load a guitar, who's watching the belt loader load baggage into the bins?

Thanks for both of the explanations.
I work in an airport where we don't have those elevators at jetways. I can see the purpose at mainline, but I thought this was a regional flight where the jetway is low enough to put bags into the cart without the use of an elevator. We usually have a chute for gate checks, but you would have to walk them up (mainline & 170). You figure you wouldn't have that many gate check bags (except crew) and you would get a couple of strollers on mainline. But regional jets usually are low enough to stand on a flat cart to handle gate checks. Also we are briefed on hand carrying strollers and wheelchairs (folding, of course) and guitars. The elevator is a nice convience, but something like that is is best to hand carry to save some grief.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 40): You figure you wouldn't have that many gate check bags (except crew) and you would get a couple of strollers on mainline.

All rolling bags are gate checked on a CRJ-100/200 along with many duffle bags and other carryon luggage.

I know. I was talking about mainline not express. I know that the CRJ 200 can't hold anything overhead. The ERJ 145,is just as bad. All roller boards and strollers must be gate checked. The RJ gates are low enough where you can stand on a flat bag cart and pass the bags to and from your partner who is at the top of the jetway. That's what we do every day, since we have dedicated ERJ (and 170) gates.

I was recently on two flights with a guitar (not mine(. A CRJ-200 and a A-321. On the CRJ-200 the guitar simply could not fit in one bin. The bin was neither long enough or tall enough. On the A321 the steward had to ask the person to valet their bag because it was a full flight and it took up a whole overhead compartment. The person mad a big stink over it which delayed the flight but he lost and had to valet his bag.

Quoting DL_Mech (Reply 4): Can a guitar be stowed anywhere in a CRJ-200 cabin?

Toilet would be about the only place I guess...

Quoting toltommy (Reply 7): The owner, especially in the case of professional musicians, should be buying a proper crush resistant (nothing is crush PROOF) case that allows them to properly check the oversized item

This is true...my friend is a professional string bass (double bass) player, and he buys a ticket for his bass to put it in a seat when travelling...

Quoting Revelation (Reply 25): It's not clear to me from the picture if a hard case would have changed this particular outcome all that much.

True, I guess I am speaking more generally.

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 28): DGS handled the inbound flight... How is this Delta's fault?

DGS is Delta Global Services a wholly owned subsidiary of DL so no matter how you slice it, that's DL all around.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 37): A vintage guitar could be that expensive if in good condition and if its a limited edition version.

I'm well aware of that, but that is not the case in this situation. I compared prices with some currently available at Gruhn's, who are often on the high side of market pricing. We're not talking about a 1959 Les Paul here.

Any decent hard shell case for a guitar WILL fit almost all overhead compartments.

The hardshell for the Ibanez Jem and prstige series fits perfectly the bottom of Airbus and boeing Overjead compartments and let you put smaller bags on top.

The hardshell case for PRS guitars also ft the same and I have put it in an overhead compartment of a Embraer 145 it fits barely and alows to put very small bags on top.

Yes those guitars cost a lot (the Jem is 4500 MSRP and a Artist or private stock PRS goes for like 8000, so last month I was adamant on taking it with me on the cabin (my only carry on). but the hardshell case is REALLY STRONG.

my 2 cents

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 48): Any decent hard shell case for a guitar WILL fit almost all overhead compartments. The hardshell for the Ibanez Jem and prstige series fits perfectly the bottom of Airbus and boeing Overjead compartments and let you put smaller bags on top. The hardshell case for PRS guitars also ft the same and I have put it in an overhead compartment of a Embraer 145 it fits barely and alows to put very small bags on top.

As a guitar player, you should know how much larger a 335 is compared to those other guitars. That said, none of my full size guitars (nor yours) would fit into the overhead of a CRJ-200.

RE: the use of the lift/cart vs "lifting" the bags, it's more than a convenience: it's a safety issue, especially at the volume of bags at a hub.

Please know that I can appreciate the years and years that regional a/c were handled without jetways and "lifting" bags--most just went on the cart and were "always" at ground level with the pax.

With the advent of RJ sized jetways, (and the increase in SIZE of RJ's) there is bound to be a need for a more efficient means of collecting and returning gate check bags. Stations where there are 3 RJ's a day? Not too bad to "lift" the bag or belt load them...but in dedicated RJ gates, why not do it better?

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 48): the hardshell case is REALLY STRONG.

As per the article in the thread starter, the case did bend the steel beam of the jetway, but then again the guitar inside was damaged too.

Quoting silentbob (Reply 49): That said, none of my full size guitars (nor yours) would fit into the overhead of a CRJ-200.

  

Quoting B727FA (Reply 50): Not too bad to "lift" the bag or belt load them...but in dedicated RJ gates, why not do it better?

Why not design an elevator where stuff inside the elevator can't shift and slide out and get jammed in between the lift and the bottom of the jetway?

Seems to be the root cause of this incident.

The fit of the cart in the lift is pretty tight already. One can't stand in the lift with the cart. There is no room on any side for anything to squeeze in. In this situation, the edge of the case nipped the sill of the jetway and it pulled it off the cart and into the gap. What can I say? It's an imperfect world.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 51): Why not design an elevator where stuff inside the elevator can't shift and slide out and get jammed in between the lift and the bottom of the jetway? Seems to be the root cause of this incident.

  
I have had "issues" with these elevators doing things to my bag because it was not fully "in" the rack and the handles have been damaged. Nothing major but it is annoying (I have also seen a stroller broken by an elevator).

I forgot where it was (perhaps Denver?) but the elevator system I liked best had a simple solution: The rack itself had a "door" that closed first then it went up. At the jet bridge, the elevator jet bridge door was opened and then the luggage rack's door was opened and everything was safe and sound.

Very simple and ensure that everything is in an safe.

Tugg

That would seem to solve it!

I read online today that DL paid for repairs and gave the dude 2x free tickets, and Gibson did the repairs and gave him a 50th anniversary repro of the guitar for free!

All's well that ends well, till the next guitar gets crushed!