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Topic: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: sxf24
Posted 2013-01-07 05:15:54 and read 30224 times.

In a major departure from existing strategy, an MoU for 16 narrowbody aircraft has been signed. No word if this will impact A330 or A350 deliveries or change the west coast network.

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/da...0465913000877/a13-2251_1ex99d1.htm

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: g500
Posted 2013-01-07 05:25:27 and read 30133 times.

So basically Hawaiian plans to fly to thin U.S main-land markets.... Maybe SLC, Tucson, Oakland?

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-01-07 05:29:15 and read 30071 times.

Quoting g500 (Reply 1):
Maybe SLC, Tucson, Oakland

Why was Anchorage the first route which came to mind?  

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: flyby519
Posted 2013-01-07 05:52:35 and read 29783 times.

Maybe they are going for frequency in large markets? Hourly shuttle service to LAX/SFO from HNL?

A preemptive strike against VX and WN?

[Edited 2013-01-07 05:54:37]

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: enilria
Posted 2013-01-07 06:15:24 and read 29529 times.

Quoting sxf24 (Thread starter):
No word if this will impact A330 or A350 deliveries or change the west coast network.

It's definitely for West Coast. It's a bit risky because the existing A321 can't make it, so they are depending on the guarantees from Airbus that this plane will make it. It is so risky because there is really nowhere else to fly it if it turns out that West Coast is too far. The A320 can't even make it now.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2013-01-07 06:18:41 and read 29471 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 4):
It's definitely for West Coast. It's a bit risky because the existing A321 can't make it, so they are depending on the guarantees from Airbus that this plane will make it. It is so risky because there is really nowhere else to fly it if it turns out that West Coast is too far. The A320 can't even make it now.

For sure they have some perfomrance guarantee for Airbus that if it turns out the plane can't make it, they don't have to take it.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: Ben175
Posted 2013-01-07 06:25:36 and read 29370 times.

Fantastic news. The A321 will look amazing in HA's livery.

[Edited 2013-01-07 06:26:21]

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: qqflyboy
Posted 2013-01-07 06:34:31 and read 29218 times.

So, perhaps it won't be long before we see an order for A319s for inter-island ops. That would give them complete commonality and lower operating costs. And I'm sure they'd have no problem on a trade-in deal with Airbus for the 717s. I'm not suggesting the 717s need to go, but I could see HA making the case for their early departure. And DL would probably suck those 717s right up. Hmm...

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: ceo@afg
Posted 2013-01-07 06:44:04 and read 29060 times.

It does look great in HAs colors, alreday one of the most beautiful liveries out there. Check image at Flightglobal.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-signs-mou-for-16-a321neos-380720/

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: enilria
Posted 2013-01-07 06:48:01 and read 29023 times.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 5):
For sure they have some perfomrance guarantee for Airbus that if it turns out the plane can't make it, they don't have to take it.

It is rare that the guarantee is to take the planes back. Usually it is just a cash offset. The cash will help little in this case.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2013-01-07 06:55:10 and read 28929 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 9):
It is rare that the guarantee is to take the planes back. Usually it is just a cash offset. The cash will help little in this case.

Yes, if the plane can't make it to the mainland, maybe Airbus will build an airport off the california coast as compensation 

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: HiFlyerAS
Posted 2013-01-07 06:58:46 and read 28860 times.

Sounds like they're getting nervous about AS, G4, WS and potentially others (VX and WN?) siphoning away traffic. Not sure what markets these a/c are intended for. By 2017, AS and G4 will easily have any and all west coast-Hawaii thin-medium markets covered.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: redzeppelin
Posted 2013-01-07 06:59:59 and read 28863 times.

Could they base these on the mainland and use them to provide feed to their wide bodies? Maybe expand their WB schedule at stations like LAS & OAK, then use the 321s to feed those flights with mid-con and trans-con connections? Just a thought...

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: queb
Posted 2013-01-07 07:00:00 and read 28868 times.

"...the A321neo will seat approximately 190 passengers in a two-class configuration (First and Coach) and has a range of 3,650 nautical miles. The aircraft will offer the more comfortable seat widths found in the twin-aisle Airbus A330."

http://investor.hawaiianairlines.com...-newsArticle&ID=1771622&highlight=

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-01-07 07:02:21 and read 28804 times.

Quoting g500 (Reply 1):
So basically Hawaiian plans to fly to thin U.S main-land markets.... Maybe SLC, Tucson, Oakland?
Quoting g500 (Reply 1):
Why was Anchorage the first route which came to mind?
Quoting flyby519 (Reply 3):
Maybe they are going for frequency in large markets? Hourly shuttle service to LAX/SFO from HNL?

  
All good guesses. It also frees up A330s and A350s for international flying.

Quoting qqflyboy (Reply 7):
So, perhaps it won't be long before we see an order for A319s for inter-island ops

I think theyd have the same problems as AQ's 733s and 734s wit the CFM engines.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: BlueShamu330s
Posted 2013-01-07 07:09:21 and read 28666 times.

Quoting g500 (Reply 1):
So basically Hawaiian plans to fly to thin U.S main-land markets

Watch out Alaska; Hawaiian are coming for your market to the islands.   

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: n901wa
Posted 2013-01-07 07:09:46 and read 28662 times.

My Brother and I was just talking about this 3 weeks ago. There were rumors running around the hangar in HNL that HAL was looking at a Narrow body for some long thin routes. He and I were thinking a 737 order, so they could get them in service earlier, but I guess the winner is the A321NEO. Congrats to Airbus.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: BestWestern
Posted 2013-01-07 07:09:53 and read 28674 times.

http://photos.prnewswire.com/prnfull/20130107/LA37625

Source PA newswire http://photos.prnewswire.com/prnfull/20130107/LA37625

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-01-07 07:17:39 and read 28455 times.

Sounds like an "incentive" to cancel the A358 order   
All kidding aside, I bet these will replace most domestic 767 routes.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: babybus
Posted 2013-01-07 07:30:05 and read 28115 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 4):
It is so risky because there is really nowhere else to fly it if it turns out that West Coast is too far. The A320 can't even make it now.

Why would an airline buy an aircraft if it thought it couldn't perform well on the intended routes? I am surprised at the aircraft choice, given the long over water stretch, but I'm guessing an airline fleet manager has done his homework with greater depth than I just have.

Quoting Ben175 (Reply 6):
Fantastic news. The A321 will look amazing in HA's livery.

Absolutely! Every airline should have a load of them.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: je89_w
Posted 2013-01-07 07:34:31 and read 28013 times.

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 3):
A preemptive strike against VX and WN?
Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 11):
Sounds like they're getting nervous about AS, G4, WS and potentially others (VX and WN?) siphoning away traffic.

   Smart move, and yes I'd say they're feeling the mounting pressure from AS, G4, WN, etc.

Straight from the press release: "With its slightly smaller size we'll be able to open new markets that are not viable for wide-body service, while also being able to augment service on existing routes to the West Coast of North America."

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-01-07 07:37:19 and read 27970 times.

I remember our HQ telling us that on a 5-6 hour flight, the A321 had the best seat mile costs in the fleet. The A321NEO can only be even better! In such a price sensitive market (where a wide-body edge is irrelevant), I think this is an excellent decision on the part of HA.

In spite of what a lot of people think, the present A321 can fly SFO-HNL, with two ACTs under normal conditions. For fun one day, I ran the numbers between flights. It has quite a bit more range than the A320. (And less than the A319). I don't doubt therefore that the A321NEO will cover the mission HA sees.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: redzeppelin
Posted 2013-01-07 07:45:59 and read 27734 times.

Quoting redzeppelin (Reply 12):
Could they base these on the mainland and use them to provide feed to their wide bodies?

Okay. I just read the press release where it indicates that they are intended for flights to the islands. I still wonder if they might try them on some one-stop routes to inland and eastern markets. Or, if the 321s allow more non-stop flights from the mainland to secondary HA destinations (OGG, LIH, KOA, ITO), could it reduce the inter-island demand enough that they might move some 717s to the mainland to run feeder ops?

[Edited 2013-01-07 07:46:29]

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2013-01-07 07:51:24 and read 27593 times.

Does anybody know why HA went with Airbus and not Boeing? Why didn't they go with the 737-900ER, for example? HA had previously been a Boeing customer before buying the A330s and A350s.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: Azure
Posted 2013-01-07 07:53:11 and read 27536 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 4):
It's a bit risky because the existing A321 can't make it,

Can you please explain why and give sources ? I am a little bit confused here : the Airbus website shows that a regular A321 based in HNL can definetely reach the US West Coast http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamili...craft/a320family/a321/performance/

With an extra 500 NM range for the NEO it should be more than enough under any circumstances.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: queb
Posted 2013-01-07 08:09:43 and read 29167 times.

A321 ceo nominal range from Honolulu:

http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/1642/a321.png
source: Airbus website

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: ERJ
Posted 2013-01-07 08:12:53 and read 28676 times.

Will this be the first ETOPS A321 by any carrier?

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: Pennphila
Posted 2013-01-07 08:15:25 and read 29556 times.

Very happy to hear this for HA. I sure they will use them for the smaller markets. Maybe start a west coast to non HNL flight. Or mainland east to west coast sort of thing, then on to Hawaii.

Buying a A321neo will open things up for them. Wouldn't shock me if the bought a A319 or something for training reasons.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: ItalianFlyer
Posted 2013-01-07 08:16:07 and read 29444 times.

Makes me wonder if they will start some p2p Micronesia and Marshall Island flying to give former Air Mike some competition. Based on a short search of UA fares I'd bet the margins are solid.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: Asiaflyer
Posted 2013-01-07 08:18:26 and read 29402 times.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 10):

So you don't think they understand what range the plane has? Just usual Airbus bad mouthing. Get over it please.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2013-01-07 08:22:31 and read 29358 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 4):
It's a bit risky because the existing A321 can't make it, so they are depending on the guarantees from Airbus that this plane will make it.

For the A321neo to not be able to make Hawaii, it would have to fail on its promise in a truly spectacular way -- one that would have consequences for Airbus well beyond just a Hawaiian order. The A321neo is supposed to have a nominal range about 350 nm longer than that of the current 737-800, which does Hawaii flights every day (albeit with not a lot of range to spare).

I think this is a great (if obvious) move for HA and portends a lot of potential growth.

Quoting queb (Reply 25):
A321 ceo nominal range from Honolulu:

Nominal range has little to do with reality.

When you add headwinds and required reserves (which can be quite high for Hawaii service owing to lack of suitable diversion airports), the current A321 is just a bit short of being able to do West Coast-Hawaii consistently with a reasonable payload. The A321neo will add enough range that it will be no problem.

There is a reason US (for instance) hangs on to a few 757s for Hawaii routes even though it operates a huge and growing A321 fleet.

[Edited 2013-01-07 08:23:28]

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2013-01-07 08:22:49 and read 29230 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 23):
Why didn't they go with the 737-900ER, for example?

I would guess ths HA decided the A321 was a better aircraft for its planed use.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: jetsetter629
Posted 2013-01-07 08:30:48 and read 28956 times.

Or maybe even open mainland flights from KOA and LIH...

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: BeachBoy
Posted 2013-01-07 08:36:34 and read 28798 times.

I've been wondering why they haven't done this for years. Despite their public statements to the contrary, I wonder if HA regrets not getting a similar aircraft (738, 752) when they first transitioned to 763s. Might have prevented AS from developing its Hawaii market.

I anticipate that these aircraft are gonna be perfect for all current OGG routes (OGG-SEA/SJC/OAK/LAX and restarting PDX/SAN), to open new West Coast routes from HNL (BLI/YVR, ANC, ONT, LGB), and connect the dots from existing cities to OGG/KOA/LIH (LAX-KOA/LIH, SFO-OGG/KOA/LIH, etc.).

I wonder what the A321neo takeoff performance will be because of the short runways at OGG and LIH. I know the NW 753s were restricted on OGG-SEA (despite being an eastbound flight), but UA currently runs SFO/LAX-OGG on 753s now so maybe it's an issue of PW vs. RR engines. If it has good takeoff performance maybe airports like SNA and BUR may also be possible.

As a Hawaii resident it's amazing how in just over the past few years I can now pretty much fly HA exclusively for most of my travel needs--West Coast, East Coast, and Asia.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2013-01-07 08:42:55 and read 28639 times.

I think this is an awesome opportunity. They are about a decade too late since AS has been cherry picking the small markets to Hawaii for a few years. AS keeps expanding, so I wonder how much of the market will be left, or if HA is willing to go head to head against AS. That will be an interesting battle.

It is good to see an airline commit to the extended range of the A321 NEO. I wonder how far inland the airplane can go before it will start having to block off seats. I’m curious if it will be able to fly to Arizona, Nevada, Utah, Alberta, etc or if it will be restricted to only Washington, Oregon, California, British Columbia and Alaska. And no, the nominal range charts that have been shared as of now are not good enough. I’d like to see payload range charts to reflected the 190 seat configuration if anyone has those.

Many of the smaller markets have shorter runways, so I would have thought the A320 NEO would have been a better choice for the runways at SNA, BUR, OGG, LIH, etc. There's no way a MTOW A321 NEO will get off those runways.

[Edited 2013-01-07 08:54:25]

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2013-01-07 08:44:09 and read 28614 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 23):
Why didn't they go with the 737-900ER, for example?

Two reasons come to mind:

1) Training commonality with their A330 fleet, whereas they've never operated 737s; and
2) They will want to serve a number of short fields, and the A321 has better field performance than the 737-900ER.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: je89_w
Posted 2013-01-07 08:47:19 and read 28596 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 23):
Does anybody know why HA went with Airbus and not Boeing? Why didn't they go with the 737-900ER, for example? HA had previously been a Boeing customer before buying the A330s and A350s.

For widebodies, overcapacity of the B777 for HA's ops, long waiting time for B787 EIS were some of the many factors as to why HA went with the A332. As HA is an established Airbus customer with A350s on the order book, it probably gave the A321 NEO an advantage over the B737MAX.

Quoting Azure (Reply 24):
Can you please explain why and give sources ? I am a little bit confused here : the Airbus website shows that a regular A321 based in HNL can definetely reach the US West Coast

Under nominal conditions only, but this does not take into account airport/runway limitations, departure conditions, enroute winds (which can severely restrict range especially on westbound flights to Hawaii during the northern hemisphere winter), ETOPS rules, etc.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: STT757
Posted 2013-01-07 08:54:28 and read 28249 times.

Quoting g500 (Reply 1):
So basically Hawaiian plans to fly to thin U.S main-land markets.... Maybe SLC, Tucson, Oakland?
Quoting flyby519 (Reply 3):
Maybe they are going for frequency in large markets? Hourly shuttle service to LAX/SFO from HNL?

I say it's the latter, adding frequencies to existing markets on the West Coast. It would enable HA to either redeploy their widebodies to more International markets or to shrink their widebody fleet.

Quoting qqflyboy (Reply 7):
So, perhaps it won't be long before we see an order for A319s for inter-island ops.

No way, the A319s/20s etc.. are not suitable for their shuttle type of operation, neither were the 73NGs for AQ. Those aircraft are way too heavy and too much aircraft for short hops in the tropics. Why purchase aircraft that have the capability to fly NYC-Seattle when their longest inter-island flight is 200 miles. The 717s will soldier on and eventually be replaced by something like the C Series or ERJ-190s with new engines.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2013-01-07 08:57:53 and read 28212 times.

Quoting queb (Reply 25):
A321 ceo nominal range from Honolulu:

http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/1642/a321.png
source: Airbus website

Thanks for the image. It's a good picture, but doesn't tell the whole story. The max range quoted figure is MTOW with full tanks and no wind. (I assume no wind since the chart is symmetrical, and MTOW with full tanks since that usually is the second point in the range payload curve that Boeing and Airbus quote as max range).

In reality, the max range figures usually show full tanks which means on almost every airplane, there is payload being sacrificed to get that range. There has been discussion about the A320 series being fuel volume limited, but we don't know if an airline like HA which will only operate long routes would put in aux tanks.

I appreciate the image, but it doesn't tell the story. We all know the CEO can't operate those routes today.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: B6WNQX
Posted 2013-01-07 09:02:16 and read 28047 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 37):
The 717s will soldier on and eventually be replaced by something like the C Series or ERJ-190s with new engines.

By the time the B717's are needing replacement, could they possibly look at a turbo prop in the 90 seat category if ATR gets approval to build it or if Bombardier stretches the Q400? With the stage lengths they don't need the jet speed but they need the capacity that is greater than current props. Aren't they already introducing the ATR72 or 42?

How much longer can the B717's go BTW? They must be getting up there on cycles and if they wanted to replace them they could have a buyer in DL.

Just throwing it out there.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: awacsooner
Posted 2013-01-07 09:10:12 and read 27911 times.

IMO, this sounds flat out dumb. I know that HA is on a major expansion tear lately, but a tourist destination ony can sustain so much...andI fear that this narrow body expansion for a west coast strategy will only cause WN/AS/DL/UA to open up a fare war on Hawaii that could destroy HA. Think GO! vs. AQ, but on a larger scale.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2013-01-07 09:11:14 and read 27892 times.

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 31):
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 23):
Why didn't they go with the 737-900ER, for example?

I would guess ths HA decided the A321 was a better aircraft for its planed use.

Gee, thanks for clearing that up.  

I was kind of asking for more details.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-01-07 09:19:45 and read 27660 times.

Quoting redzeppelin (Reply 12):

No, that would be hugely money losing.

Someone mentioned VX. They'd have to be etops first.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: columba
Posted 2013-01-07 09:28:51 and read 27529 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 41):
Gee, thanks for clearing that up.  

I was kind of asking for more details.

Airbus made them an offer they could not refuse  

One could only guess, as we don´t know the details of the deal, but one reason might be the commonality with their Airbus fleet. HA is not that big of an airline and if they could safe some money on training and their crews being able to fly both the Airbus A321NEO and the bigger sibblings is a huge factor.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2013-01-07 09:35:44 and read 27423 times.

Quoting columba (Reply 43):
HA is not that big of an airline and if they could safe some money on training and their crews being able to fly both the Airbus A321NEO and the bigger sibblings is a huge factor.

Do the A321 and A330/350 share a common type rating?

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: neutronstar73
Posted 2013-01-07 10:11:37 and read 27282 times.

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 40):

IMO, this sounds flat out dumb. I know that HA is on a major expansion tear lately, but a tourist destination ony can sustain so much...andI fear that this narrow body expansion for a west coast strategy will only cause WN/AS/DL/UA to open up a fare war on Hawaii that could destroy HA. Think GO! vs. AQ, but on a larger scale.

DING DING DING!! We have a winner.

This is the beginning of the end for HA. They have to remember they don't operate in a vacuum, and once WN/AS/DL/UA decide to throw a ton of aircraft at the islands (with cheaper fares that HA will not be able to match) they are toast.

Southwest alone, when I was living in Hawaii, was hotly anticipated by many in Hawaii for their cheaper fares. As much as people like to praise HA, many people in Hawaii would LOVE to have Southwest competing against them.

And Southwest will win.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: queb
Posted 2013-01-07 10:19:36 and read 26963 times.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 38):
We all know the CEO can't operate those routes today.

If United can do LAX-HNL and Alaska Airlines PDX-HNL with a 737-800, I don't see why an A321 (ceo or neo) could not do it.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: flyingalex
Posted 2013-01-07 11:25:29 and read 25838 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 44):
Do the A321 and A330/350 share a common type rating?

No, but the cockpit layout is very, very similar. It remains a separate rating, but the cross-qualification course between the A320 Family and the A330 is just a couple of days.

There are some airlines where pilots fly the A320 and A330 concurrently (rated on both). LX comes to mind.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2013-01-07 11:42:09 and read 25550 times.

Quoting queb (Reply 46):
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 38):
We all know the CEO can't operate those routes today.

If United can do LAX-HNL and Alaska Airlines PDX-HNL with a 737-800, I don't see why an A321 (ceo or neo) could not do it.

I am referring to the range chart that Airbus publishes. It is very misleading. It implies that the range limit of the A321 is HNL-DFW or HNL-NRT. That's basically a ferry range or a business jet configuration range.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: LHCVG
Posted 2013-01-07 11:46:46 and read 25441 times.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 5):
Quoting enilria (Reply 4):
It's definitely for West Coast. It's a bit risky because the existing A321 can't make it, so they are depending on the guarantees from Airbus that this plane will make it. It is so risky because there is really nowhere else to fly it if it turns out that West Coast is too far. The A320 can't even make it now.
Quoting enilria (Reply 9):
It is rare that the guarantee is to take the planes back. Usually it is just a cash offset. The cash will help little in this case.

Given the risk for them - the alternative being to have the NEO's shuttle around the islands, which an NEO is WAY overkill (and unsuited by design) for - I can't see how they would have made such a deal without SOME form of guarantee that would be satisfactory to HA if the NEO's come up short.

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 11):
Sounds like they're getting nervous about AS, G4, WS and potentially others (VX and WN?) siphoning away traffic. Not sure what markets these a/c are intended for. By 2017, AS and G4 will easily have any and all west coast-Hawaii thin-medium markets covered.

I think so too, that and the NB flights from UA and DL creeping in there too. While I think the aforementioned LAX-HNL shuttle is probably overkill, the broader point of expanding service beyond what the WB's can do when int'l opportunities exist for them seems appealing, and smart.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-01-07 12:13:46 and read 25008 times.

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 15):
Quoting g500 (Reply 1):
So basically Hawaiian plans to fly to thin U.S main-land markets

Watch out Alaska; Hawaiian are coming for your market to the islands

YVR-HNL may be an option, altough at least 4 U.S. carriers have tried YVR-HNL in the past without success and dropped the route fairly quickly. BLI-HNL may work better as it seems to be successful for AS and of course most passengers are from YVR and can thus avoid all the transborder taxes/fees.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: boeingmd82
Posted 2013-01-07 12:15:33 and read 25040 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 23):
Does anybody know why HA went with Airbus and not Boeing? Why didn't they go with the 737-900ER, for example? HA had previously been a Boeing customer before buying the A330s and A350s.

I hear this a lot, but actually, the Boeing 767 was the first Boeing product that HA has utilized since the jet age as far as I remember. A long line of DC-8's, DC-10s, L1011s, DC-9s, MD-80s and the 717, which I consider a McDonnell Douglas product, not Boeing. If you ask me, Boeing has played only a small role in Hawaiian's fleet. I was not surprised at all that Hawaiian would go Airbus. I see the 717s hanging around for a long time though, there is simply no aircraft out there that can do what this does for Hawaiian.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: LHCVG
Posted 2013-01-07 12:22:59 and read 24211 times.

Quoting boeingmd82 (Reply 53):
I see the 717s hanging around for a long time though, there is simply no aircraft out there that can do what this does for Hawaiian.

That's a great point - much as we like to joke about DL flying the 717's until who-knows-when, I wouldn't be surprised to see HA be the last operator, and pull a DL move of acquiring more as they become available and prices dip.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2013-01-07 12:31:03 and read 23961 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 52):
BLI-HNL may work better as it seems to be successful for AS and of course most passengers are from YVR and can thus avoid all the transborder taxes/fees.

I wonder how many carriers BLI-HNL can support. G4 and AS are already there. My understanding is also that BLI-HNL is very successful for AS, but probably not with three carriers in the market. AS has kept the route so it must be doing well. By contrast, they were willing to pull SMF-GDL fairly quickly so that would indicate AS isn't afraid to discontinue new markets if they aren't doing well, but instead later added BLI-OGG.

I wouldn't be surprised to see HA use the A321s to downgauge routes like SJC-HNL.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-01-07 12:32:28 and read 23919 times.

Quoting Azure (Reply 24):
Can you please explain why and give sources ? I am a little bit confused here : the Airbus website shows that a regular A321 based in HNL can definetely reach the US West Coast http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamili...craft/a320family/a321/performance/

What you see on the Airbus website is the range with full passengers and their baggage, but without extra payload, without headwinds and other weather variables etc.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2013-01-07 12:41:33 and read 23830 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 4):
It's definitely for West Coast. It's a bit risky because the existing A321 can't make it, so they are depending on the guarantees from Airbus that this plane will make it. It is so risky because there is really nowhere else to fly it if it turns out that West Coast is too far. The A320 can't even make it now.

The A320 is more than capable of flying the route. It happens to be an accident of history that nobody has used it on that route, but it is quite capable. As for the A321, it has the range. The question is whether it has the range under ETOPS conditions.

Quoting enilria (Reply 9):
It is rare that the guarantee is to take the planes back. Usually it is just a cash offset. The cash will help little in this case.

Then in that case, HA will probably insist on that as part of their contract. The planes can do the routes for which they are required, or HA gets their money back. It's not an unreasonable demand (HA is in a special situation and Airbus can always sell the frames to someone else) and if Airbus wants the business, then they'll go along with it.

Quoting boeingmd82 (Reply 51):
I was not surprised at all that Hawaiian would go Airbus. I see the 717s hanging around for a long time though, there is simply no aircraft out there that can do what this does for Hawaiian.

Not only that, but soon the entire HA extra-island fleet (the fleet that flies from the archipeligo to distant destinations) will be Airbus. That will simplify crewing and training.

Quoting BeachBoy (Reply 33):
I anticipate that these aircraft are gonna be perfect for all current OGG routes (OGG-SEA/SJC/OAK/LAX and restarting PDX/SAN), to open new West Coast routes from HNL (BLI/YVR, ANC, ONT, LGB), and connect the dots from existing cities to OGG/KOA/LIH (LAX-KOA/LIH, SFO-OGG/KOA/LIH, etc.).

It is very true. I will only fly HA to HI these days, regardless of connecting at HNL and regardless of prices. HA's product is just so superior. HOWEVER, I wonder how much business they are losing due to people choosing nonstops over connections at HNL. If they could serve the major tourist destinations at OGG, LIH, and the Big Island nonstop from mainland cities, that would probably help them capture more market share.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: flyby519
Posted 2013-01-07 12:48:10 and read 23582 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 37):
No way, the A319s/20s etc.. are not suitable for their shuttle type of operation, neither were the 73NGs for AQ. Those aircraft are way too heavy and too much aircraft for short hops in the tropics. Why purchase aircraft that have the capability to fly NYC-Seattle when their longest inter-island flight is 200 miles. The 717s will soldier on and eventually be replaced by something like the C Series or ERJ-190s with new engines.

Yes but would an A319 NEO be able to reach the mainland? That could increase fleet utilization and make it worthwhile to run a few intra-island flights, then send the a/c to the mainland for an overnight. Also since the A319/321 share a type rating the training costs would be decreased and allow for more efficient Pilot/FA schedules.

Also dont forget the ATR outsourcing that HA is subsidizing, maybe the intra-island flying will be a smaller portion of overall capacity for mainline.

[Edited 2013-01-07 12:49:51]

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: LHCVG
Posted 2013-01-07 13:04:34 and read 23292 times.

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 56):

By far it will, with some to spare...the issue is as mentioned that NG planes are just not suited to the short hops used for intra-island flights. They are WAY overbuilt for intra-island flights (heavy), and those hops really chew up the engines too (optimized for cruise rather than lots of high-thrust, think air usage). So repositioning is of course possible, but don't expect them to become the mainstay of intra-island flying.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: United_fan
Posted 2013-01-07 13:46:21 and read 22776 times.

I was thinking that the A321 will be HA's first NB to the West Coast since the DC-8's!

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: Wingtips56
Posted 2013-01-07 14:49:49 and read 22109 times.

I read a news article on this MOU today, stating they'd use the A321 for new Mainland routes that are too thin for the A330/B767, naming OGG/KOA - SAN/SMF as specific examples. They can fill the widebodies to HNL, but this will suit the other islands better. The same article quoted HA praising their B717, saying it's the best thing currently made for their inter-island flying, and would keep them at least though the end of the decade, and see what's available then.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2013-01-07 15:12:20 and read 21939 times.

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 59):
I read a news article on this MOU today, stating they'd use the A321 for new Mainland routes that are too thin for the A330/B767, naming OGG/KOA - SAN/SMF as specific examples.

What surprises me is that the A321 currently can only lift 195,000lbs off of a runway that is 7,000 ft like OGG's. I'm impressed that the A321 NEO can make it to the west coast with that type of payload penalty with 190 passengers. I would have thought the A320 NEO would have been a better choice.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: packsonflight
Posted 2013-01-07 16:16:17 and read 20984 times.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 60):
What surprises me is that the A321 currently can only lift 195,000lbs off of a runway that is 7,000 ft like OGG's. I'm impressed that the A321 NEO can make it to the west coast with that type of payload penalty with 190 passengers. I would have thought the A320 NEO would have been a better choice.

Possibly the Sharklets play a role there. I read somewhere that the Sharklets increase the MTOW by 3000 kg for given runway.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: gigneil
Posted 2013-01-07 16:21:07 and read 20963 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 4):
It's definitely for West Coast. It's a bit risky because the existing A321 can't make it, so they are depending on the guarantees from Airbus that this plane will make it. It is so risky because there is really nowhere else to fly it if it turns out that West Coast is too far. The A320 can't even make it now.

That's factually inaccurate, and a poster like yourself knows that it is.

A poster like yourself also knows that an A321neo will be able to fly most of the way to Denver from Honolulu.

Quoting qqflyboy (Reply 7):

So, perhaps it won't be long before we see an order for A319s for inter-island ops. That would give them complete commonality and lower operating costs.

An A319 will definitely not lower operating costs to a 717 on 30 minute hops. The engine maintenance alone will kill it.

NS

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: LHCVG
Posted 2013-01-07 16:40:35 and read 20671 times.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 62):
An A319 will definitely not lower operating costs to a 717 on 30 minute hops. The engine maintenance alone will kill it.

     

Yeah, ask AQ about how their 73G's worked out!

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: je89_w
Posted 2013-01-07 16:42:53 and read 20614 times.

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 63):
Yeah, ask AQ about how their 73G's worked out!

You mean B733s and B734s. The B73Gs were primarily used for flights to the West Coast.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: RWA380
Posted 2013-01-07 16:46:27 and read 20540 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 53):
I wouldn't be surprised to see HA use the A321s to downgauge routes like SJC-HNL

100% agree, these new birds will help HA stay daily in markets where a widebody is a bit too much, factoring in the other traffic on the same route from other carriers.

Quoting ItalianFlyer (Reply 28):
Makes me wonder if they will start some p2p Micronesia and Marshall Island flying to give former Air Mike some competition. Based on a short search of UA fares I'd bet the margins are solid.

I have often stated here on A.net that it is a shame HA does not clean up on smaller markets in the pacific, I'd love to see HA at NAN, KWA or maybe Nauru.... just examples, not guesses.

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 40):
IMO, this sounds flat out dumb. I know that HA is on a major expansion tear lately, but a tourist destination ony can sustain so much...andI fear that this narrow body expansion for a west coast strategy will only cause WN/AS/DL/UA to open up a fare war on Hawaii that could destroy HA. Think GO! vs. AQ, but on a larger scale
Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 45):
This is the beginning of the end for HA. They have to remember they don't operate in a vacuum, and once WN/AS/DL/UA decide to throw a ton of aircraft at the islands (with cheaper fares that HA will not be able to match) they are toast

You may be right, but I doubt it, after my trip last month to HNL, There were tons more tourists than I saw 5 years prior, the hotels were pretty full at a once "slow season" time to visit. I saw the new Trump hotel, a massive property with tons of rooms, Hawaii is expanding to meet demand, I see lots more tourists wanting to stay "domestic" when travelling. I think HA didn't give the smaller markets enough attention in the past, as well as direct alternate island flying, now they are jumping in with the correct sized aircraft, I think this move is long overdue.

[Edited 2013-01-07 17:27:53]

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: gigneil
Posted 2013-01-07 16:54:33 and read 20453 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 23):
Does anybody know why HA went with Airbus and not Boeing? Why didn't they go with the 737-900ER, for example? HA had previously been a Boeing customer before buying the A330s and A350s.

Nobody here could actually know the details of that except, of course, ordering the 737-900ER vs a NEO isn't quite a contest. It seems like they were opting for a new generation plane.

The split between HA and Boeing was quite public - Boeing refused to offer them deals because they thought they had them locked up tight. As a result HA went with a large order of Airbus planes, and this is following

Now that they have a huge fleet of Airbus planes coming, at a reasonably small airline like HA the MFF/CCQ features of the Airbus family are pretty large - if they want pilots on the longer hauls to fly any plane, its simpler to do from their A330s and A350s to A321neos.

NS

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: laca773
Posted 2013-01-07 16:54:35 and read 20459 times.

Congratulations to HA and Airbus! Even though I think the 73H/739ER and the future 737MAX are very capable and proven already to fly these routes from the westcoast, it makes sense why HA went with Airbus. Too bad the 757 isn't being made any more.

HA went into this order with their eyes wide open knowing their market share would continue to erode with AS continuing to gradually add service to smaller destinations in the Hawaiian Islands with a right size a/c. They saw only having widebodies as being a large obstacle for future growth as it doesn't make economical sense to operate 76W/A330s on routes to KOA/LIH/OGG. This will definitely keep them competitive.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: EagleBoy
Posted 2013-01-07 17:07:45 and read 20274 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 23):
Does anybody know why HA went with Airbus and not Boeing? Why didn't they go with the 737-900ER, for example? HA had previously been a Boeing customer before buying the A330s and A350s.

No point sticky with an imagined 'loyalty' when economics rule the aviation world. I can remember in the late 1990's, when EI was mostly B737, they took 6 A321, loved the economics and decided on 30 A320 rather than 30 B737NG in 2000. 2005 saw the end of 36 years of the B737 in EI service.

I do believe the A321NEO will allow HA to operate into more destinations than they currently. The lower overall costs of the A321 allow higher weekly freqeuncies than the A330 does. Save the widebody for heavy routes.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-01-07 18:21:37 and read 19508 times.

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 3):

Maybe they are going for frequency in large markets? Hourly shuttle service to LAX/SFO from HNL?

A preemptive strike against VX and WN?

[Edited 2013-01-07 05:54:37]


I like that idea but it wouldn't be every hour. Maybe 2-3 hours.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 17):

Niiiiiiiiiiiice

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: olddominion727
Posted 2013-01-07 18:21:46 and read 19544 times.

Funny when I asked this about the 738's or 739's about 6 mos ago, going into thin routes like SCK, MRY, SXM... everyone said I was crazy... I guess I was closer to being right... only with the A321NEO... I bet we're going to see a lot of new outter island markets... SJC, OAK, PDX, SEA, ANC, SFO to KOA... Maybe SLC too?? I think this is a huge step and keeps HA one of the best [regional] carriers in the United States. I think this would also work as possibly a mainland hub to HI. like in SJC... fill the HI markets, compete against AS (and WN in the future) as well as connect SJC cities with places like DEN, SLC, ORD, MSP, DTW, ATL, EWR, WAS, BOS, AUS, MCI, CLT, PHL, HOU. Some of these markets previously served with the AA hub. I think it would be a win-win for Silly-con Valley, and HI especially with their impeccable service with hot free hot meals. I wonder if the free hot meal service HA has now would still be there? Thinking on a bigger note, HA could connect EU hubs to HI via SJC with A350 but that's more of a pipe dream, especially because the A350 can make the journey from EU to HI (I believe).

I think the new 788 NH flight is going to shine lights onto a huge new market with 788/9 & A350, like LON, PAR, FRA, BJS, HKG, SGN, MNL, TPE... many SJC airport officials have said a lot is banking on NH and could be the hinge to open pandora's box. We'll see. A lot could happen in the next few years with SJC. It's always had a huge potential, we'll see what happens, especially with better weather than SFO and less delays, along with better parking. I know these are many reasons that ANA is going into SJC, not to mention the backing of almost every CEO of the huge conglomerate computer companies in SJC

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: ha763
Posted 2013-01-07 18:28:31 and read 19478 times.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 66):
The split between HA and Boeing was quite public - Boeing refused to offer them deals because they thought they had them locked up tight. As a result HA went with a large order of Airbus planes, and this is following

Boeing refused because the former board chairman and CEO, John Adams, enriched himself through a $25 million stock buy back in 2002 that saw the majority of stocks bought back, $17 miilion worth, being the ones he controlled through his company AIP. Then he demanded much lower lease rates from the lessors or HA would go into bankruptcy. None of the lessors offered what he wanted and HA filed for bankruptcy. This lead to Boeing to ask for the removal of John Adams as chairman and CEO and the appointment of a trustee, which they got. They argued that the stock buy back wasted money that HA should have kept to get through the tough time, especially since the $25 million was what HA got from the U.S. government after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. The SEC found that John Adams did not disclose the declining financial condition of HA to minority shareholders, which caused them to tender less or not tender any shares. Unfortunately the SEC only fined John Adams and AIP $2.5 million for doing this.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: olddominion727
Posted 2013-01-07 18:34:49 and read 19360 times.

As much as I love Boeing... I am happy the A321NEO is fitting their specific niche. I do not want to make this an airbus vs boeing, because I have enjoyed both. I will say that Airbus does feel like a bigger plane (taller) especially being 6'4" Even the A318 was pretty room compared to 735 or 73G. I am very happy UA is switching their SJC-IAH flights to A320's. They seem roomier. Though on the weekends, it seems one is going to a 735. Anyway, congrats to HA.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: LHCVG
Posted 2013-01-07 18:42:33 and read 19257 times.

Quoting je89_w (Reply 64):
You mean B733s and B734s. The B73Gs were primarily used for flights to the West Coast.

Fair enough. I was more so thinking of the CFM-powered models to the Jurassics and how these newer birds just don't like the short hops with quick turns all day.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: gigneil
Posted 2013-01-07 19:00:31 and read 19034 times.

Quoting ha763 (Reply 71):
Boeing refused because the former board chairman and CEO, John Adams, enriched himself through a $25 million stock buy back in 2002 that saw the majority of stocks bought back, $17 miilion worth, being the ones he controlled through his company AIP.

I am not talking about the first time they went to the table. I'm talking about the second time.

The first time clearly there was a LOT of issues related to the bankruptcy.

I am talking about when the A330 and A350 order was placed, which was some time after that.

NS

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: UA735WL
Posted 2013-01-07 19:44:00 and read 18684 times.

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 40):
MO, this sounds flat out dumb. I know that HA is on a major expansion tear lately, but a tourist destination ony can sustain so much...andI fear that this narrow body expansion for a west coast strategy will only cause WN/AS/DL/UA to open up a fare war on Hawaii that could destroy HA. Think GO! vs. AQ, but on a larger scale.
Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 45):
DING DING DING!! We have a winner.

This is the beginning of the end for HA. They have to remember they don't operate in a vacuum, and once WN/AS/DL/UA decide to throw a ton of aircraft at the islands (with cheaper fares that HA will not be able to match) they are toast.

Southwest alone, when I was living in Hawaii, was hotly anticipated by many in Hawaii for their cheaper fares. As much as people like to praise HA, many people in Hawaii would LOVE to have Southwest competing against them.

And Southwest will win.

I don't think that this is a downgrade to the west coast...doubtlessly HA will compensate for the reduction in capacity by increasing frequency (they'd be fools not to).

It's also interesting to see how a lot of people think that WN will crush any and all competition once they start Hawaii . But frankly (apart from initial sky-high LFs), I don't WN will become as big a player player in the Hawaii market as many think they will be. Here are some reasons...

1. Fares- For most of it's existence WN was able to (profitably) sell seats for astronomically lower prices than their competitors. Recently, however, WN's costs have risen,and consequentially, so have their fares. Because of this, the margins in fares between WN and everyone else's fares have narrowed. Within the Lower 48, WN has been able to still remain the airline of choice for many because their product is better (than most domestic products..) Hawaii, while remaining a domestic market, has higher standards, which leads us to...

2. Product- Due to longer sector lengths and ETOPS regulations going to Hawaii (and the resulting larger fuel requirements), WN's Hawaii fares will likely be cheaper (by the aforementioned narrow margin) than the competition. All things being equal, WN would capture most of the yields. BUT... WN's product is not up to snuff with the big guys. They offer NO IFE whatsoever, nor do they offer anything more substantial than light snacks and drinks. Most (if not all) of their competitors going to Hawaii offer some sort of meal service (not sure about G4), whether BOB of free, and most also offer some sort of IFE. Many of these competitors also offer a serviceable premium product, and again, WN does not. I'm not convinced that WN will be able to entice pax away from these competing offerings without creating a larger fare margin for themselves (and in the process, lowering fares to an unsustainable level.)

3. Saturation- Many of the cities that WN will serve Hawaii from already have flights to the Islands. Again, competion. (see above).

4. WN will never be able to "destroy" HA like YV did to AQ because HA, unlike AQ, does not rely quite as heavily upon their mainland (or interisland) flights for revenue. Indeed, many of HA's most profitable flights are to destinations that WN will NEVER be able to compete with them on (SYD, ICN, HND, FUK, etc). While WN does have the means to weaken HA's mainland position, they will never be able to put nearly enough pressure on HA to make them fold.



In simpler terms, HA is not conceding the market to WN (and indeed, all of their competitors)through this A321 order. This allows them to replace wide-body capacity with narrow-body frequency (which incidentally carries a bonus for HA in terms of seasonal yields-with the 321s, they can reduce or increase frequency to meet demand) and move their twin-aisles to the long haul international flights. HA's 321s will be more than a match for WN's 738's (and later MAX 8s) due to their superior onboard product and international connection oppertunities...

So (IMO!) smart move by HA...

[Edited 2013-01-07 19:44:40]

[Edited 2013-01-07 19:45:47]

[Edited 2013-01-07 19:48:21]

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: neutronstar73
Posted 2013-01-07 19:58:01 and read 18567 times.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 74):
I am not talking about the first time they went to the table. I'm talking about the second time.

The first time clearly there was a LOT of issues related to the bankruptcy.

I am talking about when the A330 and A350 order was placed, which was some time after that.

NS

Can you provide some details to back this up? I'm genuinely curious about this "dust-up".

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-01-07 20:00:42 and read 18512 times.

I was wondering if HA would do this. This is great news!

Now what engine!   

Quoting BeachBoy (Reply 33):

I've been wondering why they haven't done this for years.

Ditto. But this is a good step forward.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2013-01-07 20:24:18 and read 18305 times.

Quoting qqflyboy (Reply 7):
So, perhaps it won't be long before we see an order for A319s for inter-island ops. That would give them complete commonality and lower operating costs. And I'm sure they'd have no problem on a trade-in deal with Airbus for the 717s. I'm not suggesting the 717s need to go, but I could see HA making the case for their early departure. And DL would probably suck those 717s right up. Hmm...

CFM56 and the IAE V2500 don't like short flights with no cool down time.

AQ did learned this with the CRM56-3s on the 733/734. End up with them going to the 732 (and JT8D) for the Hawaii flights.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: gigneil
Posted 2013-01-07 21:40:39 and read 17697 times.

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 76):
Can you provide some details to back this up? I'm genuinely curious about this "dust-up".

It was talked about extensively here... and I will go looking for the links.

NS

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: HA_DC9
Posted 2013-01-07 21:54:32 and read 17611 times.

Part of the reason of the split from Boeing that gigneil is talking about too was the issue of intermediate lift. HA's CEO Mark Dunkerley stated publicly at least once that they wanted 787's, but delivery slots were all taken up for years in advance. Airbus had A350 slots at the timeframe HA wanted. In the meantime, HA required intermediate lift capacity because the leases of most of the 763ER's were coming due before the initial deliveries of the A350 so HA needed an intermediate aircraft to hold them through and/or expand until the A350 is delivered. Airbus offered them A332's which they took. I believe Boeing offered HA more 763ER's which by that time was an aircraft no longer optimum for HA's needs based on the flying HA wanted to do in the near future (note their recent and continued international expansion). I think Boeing also offered the 777 which for an airline like HA is too much aircraft and too expensive.

The rest is history, and HA will continue to fly Airbus widebodies and narrowbodies well into the future. The remaining 767s will be gone within 10 years and i'm sure HA is also looking to an eventual 717 replacement sometime at the turn of the decade.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: astuteman
Posted 2013-01-07 22:18:08 and read 17516 times.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 34):
There's no way a MTOW A321 NEO will get off those runways.

It should beat the A321CEO's capability by about 3 tonnes, thanks to the sharklets

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 38):
We all know the CEO can't operate those routes today.

And we all know he's talking about using these planes to serve mainland destinations substantially inland. So for the life of me i don't know where the "these planes will lack the range" rhetoric kicks off from.
Or does the CEO suddenly not know what he's talking about?

Quoting packsonflight (Reply 61):
Possibly the Sharklets play a role there. I read somewhere that the Sharklets increase the MTOW by 3000 kg for given runway

Correct

Rgds

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-01-07 22:35:35 and read 17372 times.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 81):
And we all know he's talking about using these planes to serve mainland destinations substantially inland. So for the life of me i don't know where the "these planes will lack the range" rhetoric kicks off from.

Look at a map of the Far West. Which cities that are substantially inland would they serve beyond PHX, LAS, SLC, DEN and perhaps an outside chance for ABQ or BOI. There just isn't anything else out there with any sort of population until you get past the Rockies, which would bring the range of these planes (3,650 miles) into question. The first two cities I listed are already served by HA, the next two are maybes, the last two, let's just say I'd be surprised if they could handle daily service to the Islands, even with something the size of an A321.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-01-07 22:43:08 and read 17275 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 82):

PHX is getting upgauged soon to a 330. Not gonna go down to a 321

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-01-07 22:53:08 and read 17211 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 83):
Not gonna go down to a 321

Let's maintain perspective, I wasn't implying PHX would. I was merely listing the cities which are in the zone astuteman was qualifying. I noted that it and LAS are already served, which by default would mean current service with widebodies.

I did leave RNO out of my list, since I don't consider it 'substantially inland' as far as Hawaii is concerned. It's directly north of LAX, and 200 miles closer to HNL than LAS, 300 miles closer than PHX.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: gigneil
Posted 2013-01-07 23:09:53 and read 17094 times.

Quoting HA_DC9 (Reply 80):
i'm sure HA is also looking to an eventual 717 replacement sometime at the turn of the decade.

I'd be curious as to what.

I heard that even the E-Jets weren't good for those quick turns, and the CRJ costs aren't optimal.

Beyond that, what capabilities will the PW1000G powered planes have? Maybe the Cseries, MRJ, or etc will provide superior performance on repeated shuttle flights.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 81):
Or does the CEO suddenly not know what he's talking about?

Are we talking about the same acronyms anymore?  

I wouldn't see that A321neo going further than DEN, myself. And I see them being able to do it fairly reliably.

To be honest, I think an A321 sized plane gives HA a huge amount of flexibility. I would be saying the same thing if they'd opted for the 737-9 MAX.

I would not, however, have been impressed by a 737-900ER buy.

NS

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: Pohakuloa
Posted 2013-01-08 00:40:13 and read 16509 times.

Color me mostly surprised by this MoU "order" from HA, though it would shed light as to the purpose of the 380 visit and Airbus' friendly sales call was about in HNL in December.

That being said, 16 aircraft (9 options notwithstanding) is a rather substantial order for an airline the size of HA. IMO, these aircraft are predominantly for expansion rather than replacement as many others have suggested. Through the press releases and abilities of the aircraft, thin routes are obviously in the cards. I think we will see not only the introduction of non-existing routes, but we will also see a down gauge for some routes and re-intro of others (as some of you have mentioned). I believe HA will start routes from KOA to the west coast, throw in a few flights into OGG making seasonal flights year round, a HNL-Bay Area down gauge of equipment into SMF/SJC and potentially introducing HNL-DEN/SLC. This could also be beneficial should HA choose to initiate a KOA-Tokyo route in the 2017-2020 range to coincide with the 321 arrivals.

Now for the theoretical part of my post: I think this could eventually allow HA to Continue to have the 717 inter-island, the 321 scattered through the system flying the above mentioned routes, the Airbus widebodies based primarily on HNL flying (other than KOA-Tokyo) and the 767's on OGG flying until they are eventually phased out of HA.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 77):
Now what engine!

My best educated guess would be an IAE powerplant if available as HA has RR on their 717's and 332's.

Grammar Pet peeve (and completely off topic): All flying between the Hawaiian islands are INTER-ISLAND flights, not intra-island flights. HA does not fly intra-island and in fact only Mokulele flies intra island from OGG-Hana, Maui.

[Edited 2013-01-08 00:49:15]

[Edited 2013-01-08 00:50:16]

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: EagleBoy
Posted 2013-01-08 02:45:59 and read 15871 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 83):
PHX is getting upgauged soon to a 330. Not gonna go down to a 321

But the A321NEO could allow an increase in frequency and capacity. 2x A321 > A332

[Edited 2013-01-08 02:46:22]

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: us330
Posted 2013-01-08 07:33:27 and read 15001 times.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 65):
have often stated here on A.net that it is a shame HA does not clean up on smaller markets in the pacific, I'd love to see HA at NAN, KWA or maybe Nauru.... just examples, not guesses.

The problem is that some of those smaller markets are just that--very small, and a lot of them are oriented toward Australia or New Zealand, not the U.S. I could see a flight to the Marshall Islands working or to Guam, and Fiji if they could time the flight to/from to connect to departures/arrivals from the mainland.
Flights to Nauru, New Caledonia, etc. won't work because of no demand from the U.S..

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: BA777-236
Posted 2013-01-08 07:45:36 and read 14944 times.

Any chance Airbus might do an A318neo in the future? Cause when HAL finally needs to retire their 717's, having an A318neo, A321neo, A330 and A350 fleet is pretty efficient?

Also as mentioned above, could they use these on the mainland for feeder flights? Like doing YYZ-LAX for example, to feed traffic onto HNL?

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: SANFan
Posted 2013-01-08 07:47:26 and read 14941 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 83):
PHX is getting upgauged soon to a 330. Not gonna go down to a 321.

Source please. This is news to me...

However, I would think it possible that the route could be changed from 1 daily widebody to 2 daily 321NEOs -- like many other existing HA mainland routes.

bb

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2013-01-08 07:55:23 and read 14898 times.

Quoting olddominion727 (Reply 70):
I think the new 788 NH flight is going to shine lights onto a huge new market with 788/9 & A350, like LON, PAR, FRA, BJS, HKG, SGN, MNL, TPE... many SJC airport officials have said a lot is banking on NH and could be the hinge to open pandora's box.

I appreciate your enthusiasm for my second home airport, but I don't think expansion is going to be that extensive. I do think NH will do very well at SJC, and maybe that will lead to one more niche flight someplace like BA sending a 787 to SJC much like NH is splitting SJC and SFO. But I don't think SJC is going to turn into another JFK or MIA with lot of foreign carriers.

Quoting olddominion727 (Reply 72):
I am very happy UA is switching their SJC-IAH flights to A320's. They seem roomier.

That's a myth. The point at which the A32x fuselage is very slightly wider is not really in a place where the passengers notice any significant difference. I'll take a rock solid 738s anytime over a rattling A320.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 85):
Quoting HA_DC9 (Reply 80):
i'm sure HA is also looking to an eventual 717 replacement sometime at the turn of the decade.

I'd be curious as to what.

I heard that even the E-Jets weren't good for those quick turns, and the CRJ costs aren't optimal.

Beyond that, what capabilities will the PW1000G powered planes have? Maybe the Cseries, MRJ, or etc will provide superior performance on repeated shuttle flights.

Today's offerings don't seem to meet the need for quick turn, high cycle short flights like intra-Hawaii flights. I'd speculate that the Q400 may be the best suited as a 717 replacement.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: TheSultanOfWing
Posted 2013-01-08 08:04:00 and read 14847 times.

Great to see A321 playing catch up with B757's capabilities.......at much lower co$$t.
The technology sure has come a long way!


FH

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: HoMsaR
Posted 2013-01-08 08:05:35 and read 14819 times.

Quoting BA777-236 (Reply 89):
Any chance Airbus might do an A318neo in the future?

No. There's no way it would be cost competitive against the other 100-seaters on the market.

Same reason Boeing isn't offering a 737-6 MAX (in fact, they haven't even been able to sell the 737-7MAX to anyone yet).

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2013-01-08 09:11:02 and read 14622 times.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 81):

And we all know he's talking about using these planes to serve mainland destinations substantially inland. So for the life of me i don't know where the "these planes will lack the range" rhetoric kicks off from.
Or does the CEO suddenly not know what he's talking about?

I think you mixed up the acronyms. CEO in my post was referring to another poster using it as Current Engine Option.

I see no problem with HNL-West Coast. HNL-Arizona/Nevada/Idaho/Utah should be possible, but I’d be curious if the A321 NEO will start taking weight restrictions that impact payload around 3000 miles with headwinds and under ETOPS rules.

What I’m more curious about is that the press release says they plan to use it from OGG. The A321 NEO won’t be able to takeoff with full payload from OGG, so I’d be curious to see how much range it will have with 190 seats filled. I don’t say it is impossible, but getting to the west coast with 190 seats will impress me. That’s a big performance increase from the current A321. I’m also curious to see if it can operate from SNA and BUR with 190 seats if HA is interested in starting those routes. Most airlines stick with the 73G, A319 or 752 out of SNA with only a few operating the 738 or A320 and none having the 739 or A321.

This order is a big confidence boost to the A321 NEO program. I personally am surprised as I would have thought they would have gone with the A320 NEO since it will have better short field performance and more range, but apparently Airbus is making sufficient improvements to give the A321 NEO adequate performance. The next question is who will be the first to consider putting it on transatlantic routes. BOS-LHR or SNN-JFK are only a few hundred more miles than PHX/LAS/SLC-HNL.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-01-08 09:24:02 and read 14568 times.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 94):
the A320 NEO since it will have better short field performance and more range

Is that true with the NEO? As it is not true with the CEO. (Using your acronyms).

The A321 CEO has better short field performance than the A320, and with two ACTs, longer range. (Range is only slightly better with one ACT).

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-01-08 09:29:35 and read 14537 times.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 90):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 83):
PHX is getting upgauged soon to a 330. Not gonna go down to a 321.

Source please. This is news to me...

However, I would think it possible that the route could be changed from 1 daily widebody to 2 daily 321NEOs -- like many other existing HA mainland routes.

bb


I don't have a source. This is repeated news here especially after HA moves to T3N.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: migair54
Posted 2013-01-08 09:33:17 and read 14519 times.

Quoting BA777-236 (Reply 89):
Any chance Airbus might do an A318neo in the future? Cause when HAL finally needs to retire their 717's, having an A318neo, A321neo, A330 and A350 fleet is pretty efficient?

The A318 itself was not a sucess, so why spend money and time in an NEO, 100 seat market is for other manufacturers, not boeing or Airbus... Who knows maybe the can buy more ATR when they develop the new 90 seats version...

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-01-08 09:35:02 and read 14504 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 50):

YVR-HNL may be an option, altough at least 4 U.S. carriers have tried YVR-HNL in the past without success and dropped the route fairly quickly. BLI-HNL may work better as it seems to be successful for AS and of course most passengers are from YVR and can thus avoid all the transborder taxes/fees.


I don't disagree with you except that when I fly having to go through BLI is a bit of a chore.

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 56):
Yes but would an A319 NEO be able to reach the mainland? That could increase fleet utilization and make it worthwhile to run a few intra-island flights, then send the a/c to the mainland for an overnight. Also since the A319/321 share a type rating the training costs would be decreased and allow for more efficient Pilot/FA schedules.



Where does it say anything about the A319 here in the press release,


HONOLULU — Hawaiian Airlines today announced the signing of a Memorandum of Understanding with airframe manufacturer Airbus to acquire 16 new A321neo aircraft between 2017 and 2020, with rights to purchase an additional nine aircraft.


I only see the A321NEO.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-08 10:16:22 and read 14367 times.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 85):
I wouldn't see that A321neo going further than DEN, myself. And I see them being able to do it fairly reliably.

Just a question - have they said these A321's will be based at HNL?

mariner

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: SANFan
Posted 2013-01-08 10:24:06 and read 14331 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 96):
I don't have a source. This is repeated news here especially after HA moves to T3N.

Your post sure sounded to me like a statement of fact. I don't know what "repeated news" means either since, AFAIK, nothing at all has been announced or even hinted at by anyone from HA; from what I've seen, it's been a few people hoping that PHX will be u/g'd to the 'Bus sometime -- and thinking that it deserves to be. (And btw, I really don't think a gate change at Sky Harbor is proof of anything.)

May I suggest that in the future you add to your post something like "I hope..." or "IMO..." an u/g of service will happen at PHX.

bb

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: migair54
Posted 2013-01-08 10:28:46 and read 14289 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 99):
Just a question - have they said these A321's will be based at HNL?


They haven´t said, but if they are planning to fly them to few places that´s the logical place, otherwise you need crews all over the place and that´s not a good idea...

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: BoeingVista
Posted 2013-01-08 10:29:05 and read 14385 times.

Maybe we are all looking in the wrong direction on HA's ambitions, maybe they are looking to become a pacific island hub.

Quote:
Hawaiian has ordered a long range single aisle airliner that could change the airline map of the Pacific by reviving high frequency links with smaller Pacific states
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalk...its-offshore-us-hub-with-a321neos/

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: neutronstar73
Posted 2013-01-08 10:50:31 and read 14250 times.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 81):
It should beat the A321CEO's capability by about 3 tonnes, thanks to the sharklets

Airbus's website say 2 tonnes of extra payload or 500NMI extra range. Either/or.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: RWA380
Posted 2013-01-08 10:52:24 and read 14266 times.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 102):
Maybe we are all looking in the wrong direction on HA's ambitions, maybe they are looking to become a pacific island hub.

I am sure this is part of HA's plans, it's time they reached out for some low hanging pacific nation fruit. They are the only carrier in the operating in the Pacific that has the resources to connect these kind of places to Hawaii. Way to go HA!

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-08 11:01:33 and read 14213 times.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 101):
They haven´t said, but if they are planning to fly them to few places that´s the logical place, otherwise you need crews all over the place and that´s not a good idea...

I'm just wondering if - at some point - Hawaiian wants to be more than Hawaii.

mariner

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: lostsound
Posted 2013-01-08 11:05:05 and read 14200 times.

This is great news! NEO looks gorgeous in that livery. Can't wait to see the real thing!

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 91):
That's a myth. The point at which the A32x fuselage is very slightly wider is not really in a place where the passengers notice any significant difference. I'll take a rock solid 738s anytime over a rattling A320.

Not a myth, almost anyone who's flown both aircraft can tell the difference. I certainly can being 6'3.
Both aircraft are equal in build quality, give me a break.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: scbriml
Posted 2013-01-08 11:55:54 and read 14053 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 91):
That's a myth.

It would be if it weren't true.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 91):
I'll take a rock solid 738s anytime over a rattling A320.

I've flown on rattling, beaten-up 737s that haven't been very old. * sigh *

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: qqflyboy
Posted 2013-01-08 12:46:13 and read 13924 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 37):
No way, the A319s/20s etc.. are not suitable for their shuttle type of operation

US doesn't seem to have a problem running a shuttle with them in the NE.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 78):
CFM56 and the IAE V2500 don't like short flights with no cool down time.

Ok, so why does it work with US and it won't with HA? I'm genuinely curious. And what engines will be offered on the A319neo? Is it still the same problem?

As I mentioned before, I'm not suggesting for a moment the 717s need to go. And I'm not sure how far cockpit commonality and maintenance can go to lower operating costs. There most certainly is a benefit, the question is how big. At any rate, Dunkerley stated the 717s will be around through the end of the decade, and beyond that is anyone's guess.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: redrooster3
Posted 2013-01-08 12:47:36 and read 13971 times.

They are WAY too late in this market of NB west coast to Hawaii flights. I'm amazed that they are even thinking of this new moto; Let alone an A321!?@ But that's because I haven't seen an A320 series aircraft do Hawaii to west coast flights yet, so it's uncertain and surprising. Hopefully investing in a new sub-fleet in a over saturated market will make them somewhat successful in the long run... . Why don't other A320 series carrier to HNL-West Coast flights?

In the conclusion too all the previous threads, they all came to the final summit that HA wouldn't order a Narrowbody because they would be very late in the market + They'd be raising their CASM and entering a market that is already pretty crowded. This will lower prices to compete even more; Which I'm okay with! :P

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 23):
Does anybody know why HA went with Airbus and not Boeing? Why didn't they go with the 737-900ER, for example? HA had previously been a Boeing customer before buying the A330s and A350s.

It all started when HA was looking for Medium and Long Growth aircraft. Boeing offered more 767s + 787s, Airbus offered A332 and A350s. HA found both 787 and 350 very similar too their needs, but found the extra revenue on the A330 would suit them more. So HA because a Airbus customer.   But in all honesty, HA probably ordered Airbus again because of fleet commanality. In the next decade they should have a solid A321neo, A332, A350 fleet, and orders for 717 replacements.

The funny thing is, look at all these threads that relate to HA ordering a narrowbody!

What If HA Ordered NB's? (by redrooster3 Dec 20 2011 in Tech Ops)

HA To Order A320 NEO? (by hellogorgeous Aug 4 2012 in Civil Aviation)

HA & 738 MAX Or 739ER (by olddominion727 Jan 13 2012 in Civil Aviation)

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: airportugal310
Posted 2013-01-08 15:39:30 and read 13762 times.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 100):
Your post sure sounded to me like a statement of fact. I don't know what "repeated news" means either since, AFAIK, nothing at all has been announced or even hinted at by anyone from HA; from what I've seen, it's been a few people hoping that PHX will be u/g'd to the 'Bus sometime -- and thinking that it deserves to be. (And btw, I really don't think a gate change at Sky Harbor is proof of anything.)

May I suggest that in the future you add to your post something like "I hope..." or "IMO..." an u/g of service will happen at PHX.

Well said. There is a severe amount of misinformation here (shocker...) but I wouldn't even know where to start.

That said, fun times ahead for us  

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: koruman
Posted 2013-01-08 17:00:05 and read 13568 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 99):
Just a question - have they said these A321's will be based at HNL?

This is the correct question to be asking.

Everyone seems to be assuming that this is about linking secondary West Coast airports to Honolulu.

But based on a conversation from a couple of years ago, I'm wondering more whether this is actually more about linking Kona and Lihue (and to a lesser extent Kahului, which already has service) with their existing destinations on the West Coast.

At present, the major mainland airlines dominate these markets because they have enough feed at their mainland gateways to fill a 757 or 767, while Hawaiian has no narrowbodies to compete against them.

Surely Kona-Los Angeles makes more sense than Honolulu-Tucson?

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: azjubilee
Posted 2013-01-08 17:53:38 and read 13428 times.

Of course the planes will be based in HNL. All the crews and infrastructure is there, but that doesn't mean the planes won't fly from the neighbor islands. Further, I think the folks in this thread are getting a little out of control with speculation. I really see HAL supplementing the current network with the 321s. Perhaps there will be right sizing of gauge, new service from neighbor islands to existing destinations and increased flying from HNL to current destinations. I really don't think HAL is planning on replicating Allegiants strange network to Hawaii nor are they going to use these planes for mainland operations like a mini SJC hub as one has suggested.

This change in strategy must make financial sense now, where it did not in the past. Dunkerly has said in the past that a NB operation was cost prohibitive in the past. Given the latest growth and future plans the CASM at the airline will continue to decrease. This very likely helps make the business case more viable at this time. I don't see this as "being late to the party" by any means. HAL has always been at the party, they're just evolving their business, as any well run business would.

Despite the A vs B debate, it seems the 321neo is just the better product over the Max for HAL. It's silly and naive for one to think HAL hasn't done their homework on range and performance. A huge advantage the 321 has is the ability to use containers for luggage and cargo which can more efficiently and easily run the ground operation.

These are NOT 717 replacements, however it's certain they will be operated within the islands to position for mainland flights.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: n471wn
Posted 2013-01-08 18:31:17 and read 13375 times.

At the end of the day HA could no longer sit back and watch their West Coast business go to more nimble competitors flying narrow bodies directly to their island destinations without having to go through HNL-----For years I have said on this forum that HA would have to join them and do the same thing and the many naysayers (some employeees of HA) beat me up. Now with this narrow body purchase I stand vindicated.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: aerohottie
Posted 2013-01-08 19:27:23 and read 13247 times.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 102):
Maybe we are all looking in the wrong direction on HA's ambitions, maybe they are looking to become a pacific island hub.

  

Quoting mariner (Reply 105):
I'm just wondering if - at some point - Hawaiian wants to be more than Hawaii.

  

How about...

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: HNL-Jack
Posted 2013-01-08 20:19:42 and read 13107 times.

I certainly don't have any inside information, but if one looks at HA's past moves, this appears to be an acquisition that is holding true to the course. HA is and appears to want to continue to be focused on O&D traffic to and from Hawaii, with a level of service that is a grade above what other legacy and LCC carriers offer. Their business expansion to the mainland U.S. and Asia may appear to some to be rapid, but I would suggest it appears to be well thought out over many years and in line with projected revenue growth and within the financial means of the relatively small airline.

One must remember that the A-321NEO has not be on the market for that long and I'm sure HA began looking at the capabilities of the aircraft from day one. In the end it offers a relatively safe opportunity to expand frequency in major West Coast markets without adding too much capacity. A great supplement to their existing wide body service. Or it may offer a change of gauge of service in less productive markets. And, as has been mentioned here many times it certainly will allow HA to expand Neighbor Island service to and from the mainland to and from the Big Island of Hawaii and Kauai. Last, but not least it may allow expansion to rapidly growing Asia markets faster by freeing up A-330's sooner than they could or want to acquire additional wide body aircraft. But, I doubt we'll see a whole lot of western U.S. cities added.

HA under the leadership of Mark Dunkerly is conservative and calculating. He and his team have taken a long time poor performing airline and turned it into a profitable, respected member of the airline community and also with the traveling public. History has demonstrated, all too frequently that expansion for the sake of expansion doesn't work. I'm sure HA knows what it is going to do with these airplanes and I for one, don't expect anything earth shattering, just a calculated, profitable expansion much like we've seen in the past.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: ADent
Posted 2013-01-08 20:42:15 and read 13018 times.

What is the seating capacity on A321NEO and A330? Which one has the lower CASM?

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: HoMsaR
Posted 2013-01-08 20:43:54 and read 13030 times.

Quoting qqflyboy (Reply 108):
US doesn't seem to have a problem running a shuttle with them in the NE.

The "shuttle" type service in the northeast involves flights that are longer than the island-hopper shuttles. The environment is a bit different, too.

It wouldn't surprise me if aircraft utilization rates were a bit higher for HA as well, though I don't know the specifics of either airline's equipment schedules.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: gigneil
Posted 2013-01-08 21:19:45 and read 12939 times.

Quoting Pohakuloa (Reply 86):
My best educated guess would be an IAE powerplant if available as HA has RR on their 717's and 332's.

It is not. Only two engine options - GTF and LEAP-X

Quoting mariner (Reply 99):
Just a question - have they said these A321's will be based at HNL?

Good question.

Quoting qqflyboy (Reply 108):
US doesn't seem to have a problem running a shuttle with them in the NE.

Those flights aren't 15 to 20 minutes with a 15 to 20 minute turn. Planes on the NE shuttle get to idle on the ground a bit.

NS

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: SANFan
Posted 2013-01-08 21:32:23 and read 12903 times.

This is all very exciting for HA and their future.

I agree with what many have said here already. This order of new a/c certainly will give the carrier all kinds of new flexibility of service to existing as well as new markets. Perhaps we'll see them offer multiple daily flights (on slightly smaller-capacity aircraft) from some addititional cities rather than just one-a-day that we now see predominantly. I'm sure we'll see a few new mainland cities added to the route map but, as others have stated, probably not a whole bunch. (I certainly don't expect HA pulling an Allegiant-type operation out of their hats.) There will undoubtedly be some routes added connecting the Outer Islands nonstop to the mainland (finally!) in certain markets.

The economics and the competition of today's world in which all airlines must operate is very different than even just a few years ago. And in a few years forward, things will again be different. Hawaiian has just made a move that IMO will enable them to adjust their ops to future market conditions very nicely. (And we know that the changes of the last couple of years in the HI-mainland markets are only a preview of what the next couple of years will bring!)

Very impressive Hawaiian -- this will be fun to watch!

bb

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: astuteman
Posted 2013-01-08 21:37:16 and read 12905 times.

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 103):
Quoting astuteman (Reply 81):It should beat the A321CEO's capability by about 3 tonnes, thanks to the sharklets
Airbus's website say 2 tonnes of extra payload or 500NMI extra range. Either/or.

Not the same thing.

The sharklets improve field capability for a given runway length by about 3 tonnes MTOW

The figures you refer to are the overall performance gain provided by the NEO engines

Rgds

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-01-08 22:41:45 and read 12819 times.

Quoting aerohottie (Reply 114):
Quoting mariner (Reply 105):
I'm just wondering if - at some point - Hawaiian wants to be more than Hawaii.



How about...


I wonder when HA takes their 350s if they actually can do this.........I'd love this!

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: unityofsaints
Posted 2013-01-08 23:26:20 and read 12687 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 91):
Quoting olddominion727 (Reply 72):
I am very happy UA is switching their SJC-IAH flights to A320's. They seem roomier.

That's a myth. The point at which the A32x fuselage is very slightly wider is not really in a place where the passengers notice any significant difference. I'll take a rock solid 738s anytime over a rattling A320.

It's always great when someone calls something a myth and then follows it up with another myth.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: migair54
Posted 2013-01-08 23:32:42 and read 12680 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 105):
I'm just wondering if - at some point - Hawaiian wants to be more than Hawaii.

Maybe but I think they can still grow a lot in they home Islands, and if they plan where are they going to establish a second base?? LAX? Japan? any Pacific Islands??

That B767 they have will need to be replace and with the A321 NEO they can offer more freqs to places like LAX or SFO using them instead of using B767 or A330 that can be deploy to other markets.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-09 02:11:19 and read 12432 times.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 123):
Maybe but I think they can still grow a lot in they home Islands, and if they plan where are they going to establish a second base??

I think they can still grow in their home base too, I think it is a terrific base for an airline.

The downside is that the base is under assault from other airlines and I wonder what happens when Southwest starts service to Hawaii - which is probably inevitable.

If Hawaiian can build up sufficient international momentum it ail have a financial cushion, but it is always dicey to have all your eggs in one basket.

I've no idea what other tack they could take, but Mr. Dunkerley is a very smart man and I'm sure he is aware of the chinks in the armor.

mariner

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: fcogafa
Posted 2013-01-09 03:56:42 and read 12260 times.

Flightglobal are reporting a reduced range for the A321NEO

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...range-estimate-for-a321neo-380800/

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: astuteman
Posted 2013-01-09 09:30:33 and read 11890 times.

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 125):
Flightglobal are reporting a reduced range for the A321NEO

IIRC it appears to have reduced slightly from a nominal 3 750Nm to a nominal 3 650Nm

That said I don't subscribe to flightglobal pro so I can't read the article

Rgds

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: migair54
Posted 2013-01-09 10:43:20 and read 11849 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 124):
If Hawaiian can build up sufficient international momentum it ail have a financial cushion, but it is always dicey to have all your eggs in one basket.

I think making yourself strong at your home is the first step of success, they need to build a core business very strong at home.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 126):
IIRC it appears to have reduced slightly from a nominal 3 750Nm to a nominal 3 650Nm

100NM is not a big deal, with that range they can still serve many markets with that A321NEO. however 2017 is a bit late with Southwest and other airlines planning to go for Hawai... Anyway it could have been nice to see soem A321 for interim lift until the NEO´s start arriving in 2017.

A321NEO 3650NM
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?R=3650NM%40hnl

A321 normal range 3000NM, but it can be extended for another 500 NM

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?R=3000NM%40HNL

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-01-09 11:42:16 and read 11730 times.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 127):
I think making yourself strong at your home is the first step of success, they need to build a core business very strong at home.

HA already has a strong presence in Hawaii as that is their home market and they are the best airline here, IMO. They are really the only show in town. Their international markets from the Hawaiian Islands are served very well and HA should keep up the expansion with more routes.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: prost
Posted 2013-01-09 13:39:49 and read 11535 times.

Sloghtly off topic, but I have a question.

HA has undoubtedly the superior product to Hawaii from the mainland of the US. However, their First Class product internationally isn't competitove with other carriers Business Class products.

Does anybody see HA reconfiguring some aircraft for purely international flights (lie flat Business Class seating)? Or would this take away from the fleets flexibility?

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: azjubilee
Posted 2013-01-09 15:25:22 and read 11333 times.

HALs business model caters to the traveler to and from Hawaii. They do not cater to the business traveler who pay full fare business class fares for their international travel like from JFK-LHR. HALs domestic F and International Business class cabins are geared towards the traveler who is willing to splurge on that honeymoon or special occasion. They aren't competing for that lie flat business class passenger, therefore have 18 recliner seats. The seats stem from a former primarily domestic operation. IMO, HALs international business class service is terrific. The food offerings, hospitality and such are very competitive. It's just the seat and entertainment (especially on the 767) that falls short. It has been recognized by leaders at the company however, that things must be done to improve the seat offering on all long haul flights and apparently there are studies being done to refurbish the 767s that will remain and to solve the premium cabin issue. I highly doubt the solution is separate domestic and international fleets, as it reduces flexibility. I also highly doubt lie flats will be a product offering by HAL any time soon.

And N471wn... Your case for HAL going NB was made based on how Alaska was operating and changing the Hawaii market. NBs in the past at HAL never made economic sense, but with the introduction of the NEOs and MAX, the business case has changed. Also, what's changed (and changes every quarter) are the unit costs at the airline. As HAL grows and spreads its ASMs, the costs are going down, which in turn make things viable today, that weren't a few years ago.

[Edited 2013-01-09 15:27:01]

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: n471wn
Posted 2013-01-09 15:38:32 and read 11263 times.

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 130):
And N471wn... Your case for HAL going NB was made based on how Alaska was operating and changing the Hawaii market. NBs in the past at HAL never made economic sense, but with the introduction of the NEOs and MAX, the business case has changed. Also, what's changed (and changes every quarter) are the unit costs at the airline. As HAL grows and spreads its ASMs, the costs are going down, which in turn make things viable today, that weren't a few years ago.

Thank you and I take this to mean this is your way of telling me I was right in saying that HA would not sit back and let others flying NB's take away their West Coast traffic----I have said so for many years and I was right......

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: HAL
Posted 2013-01-10 02:35:45 and read 10914 times.

Futile: adj. /fyootl/: Incapable of producing any useful results; pointless. ex: trying to tell people on Airliners.net that the published range of aircraft WILL NOT be achieved in real-world use.

Pointing to the published range of the A321NEO as being 3650nm is nice on paper, but it won't happen. Not by a long shot in the real world of airline operations.

For example, last month I departed JFK on a typical winter day bound for HNL. That is 4330nm. We left with a full load of passengers, plus ETOPS fuel, and we were very close to max gross takeoff weight. We couldn't have gone farther if we'd wished, yet the published max range for the A330 with a full load of passengers is 6400nm! That's almost 50% farther than we were actually able to fly that day.

My point is - please - stop believing that airliners can fly as far as advertised. They can't. The A321NEO will be able to do the average 2100 to 2500nm flight from the west coast to Hawaii year round. But don't think it will go farther. So stop the pointless guessing about where it's going to go, and read the black-and-white press release. They will be flying to the western US as replacements for some of the 767's that will be leaving the fleet, as well as opening up a few routes to smaller cities in the western US that couldn't be profitably served with the current widebodies. That is it. There isn't any more. No SJC base, no east-coast feed to LAX and SFO, no replacing the 717's.

I am very happy with this move, as it shows again that our management is on top of our future plans, and making steady progress toward growth and sustainability in a changing marketplace. We're not 'running scared' of Southwest, and not 'late to the party' of NB's. It is simply a good, smart business decision based on our current business model, market conditions, and future expectations.

HAL

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: astuteman
Posted 2013-01-10 04:54:14 and read 10670 times.

Quoting HAL (Reply 132):
My point is - please - stop believing that airliners can fly as far as advertised. They can't. The A321NEO will be able to do the average 2100 to 2500nm flight from the west coast to Hawaii year round

Please stop believing we're all that stupid.
We know the NOMINAL range is exactly that.
And is pax only.
And is still-air.
And usually undersells the actual zero fuel weight by ignoring things such as catering.
But it IS a reference point.

Futile might also be characterised as trying to prevent the mythical shortcomings of Airbus narrowbodys becoming fact on A-net.

It's not just Airbus's that won't fly their nominal range in real world environments   

I'll guarantee a brand-new A321 CEO with sharklets would have no more trouble serving Hawaii than a 739ER does.

Which is not the message that gets portrayed on here.

The NEO won't have a problem, despite "only" having a 3 650Nm "nominal" range   

rgds

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: RWA380
Posted 2013-01-10 05:45:25 and read 10531 times.

Quoting HAL (Reply 132):
My point is - please - stop believing that airliners can fly as far as advertised. They can't. The A321NEO will be able to do the average 2100 to 2500nm flight from the west coast to Hawaii year round. But don't think it will go farther. So stop the pointless guessing about where it's going to go, and read the black-and-white press release. They will be flying to the western US as replacements for some of the 767's that will be leaving the fleet, as well as opening up a few routes to smaller cities in the western US that couldn't be profitably served with the current widebodies. That is it. There isn't any more. No SJC base, no east-coast feed to LAX and SFO, no replacing the 717's

I agree that HA has slowly gained strength, and now they are stronger than a little inter-island carrier, they are expanding even more, adding New Zealand, Taipei, More Australia and more, I agree with what you are saying, there will be no mainland hub, nor multiple additional mainland cities, a few yes, not many. I agree these A321's will replace the oldest 763's and augment routes from alternate island airports, OGG, LIH, KOA, but this previously posted article suggests the Pacific region outside of the USA is a possible direction HA will go as well. I think HA should take on some low hanging Pacific Nation cities. I know the source is not Bloomberg, but it has some potential truth, don't you think? I think HA could really rake in some cash on untapped routes, which have lost service to HNL over the years.

Hawaiian is keeping quiet about specific routes for its surprise order for 16 Airbus A321 NEOs from 2017 but the single aisle jets will have more than enough range to serve Fiji, Tonga, Samoa, and New Caledonia from Honolulu, as well as fit into Port Vila’s Bauerfield runway in Vanuatu, maybe.

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalk...its-offshore-us-hub-with-a321neos/

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-01-10 06:52:11 and read 10437 times.

What will matter is the A321NEO will have 250nm+ more range than the current 738. That opens up quite a bit of routes for HA.

Quoting Pohakuloa (Reply 86):
My best educated guess would be an IAE powerplant if available as HA has RR on their 717's and 332's.

I would like that... but what I like and reality are two different things. So I'll remain very curious on the engine selection.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 91):
I'll take a rock solid 738s anytime over a rattling A320.

Both are very durable. I've flown on 738s and A320s recently and both were rock solid. The real differences are in those that make an income off the plane and those that root for them for 'patriotic reasons.' Both sell well and both are increasing production.

Rumors are the PW1000Gs will beat fuel burn. What if they do? For HA, these will likely be very low cycle airframes anyway. Discussions such as yours made more sense before Airbus extended the cycle life of the A320. You realize the A320 is now good for 60,000FC and 120,000FH (flight cycles and flight hours)? Rated hours was more the concern than cycles too... That doubled.

Quoting aerohottie (Reply 114):
How about...

Nice. But many of those routes require a widebody, not the planes under discussion here.

Quoting mariner (Reply 124):
The downside is that the base is under assault from other airlines and I wonder what happens when Southwest starts service to Hawaii - which is probably inevitable.
Quoting astuteman (Reply 133):
The NEO won't have a problem, despite "only" having a 3 650Nm "nominal" range

And Airbus and Pratt are working hard to grow that over 3900nm to enter the 'near-TATL' market. If that happens, it would be a boon for HA and their island routes. Calling it a 3000nm and 3300nm useful range, the small range improvement brings in quite a few more Pacific islands.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?R=3000nm%40hnl,+3300nm%40hnl


Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: lostsound
Posted 2013-01-10 07:23:23 and read 10326 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 77):
Now what engine!
Quoting Pohakuloa (Reply 86):
My best educated guess would be an IAE powerplant if available as HA has RR on their 717's and 332's.

These are A321 NEOs so the only engine offerings are Pratt's PW1000G and CFM's Leap-X.

As far as I know, Pratt and Rolls couldn't come up with an agreement for IAE to develop a new engine for the NEO so Pratt decided to offer it's PW1000G instead. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: bluewave 707
Posted 2013-01-10 14:12:24 and read 10000 times.

Having the A321NEOs give HAL more options to have non-stop service between the Neighbor Islands and the west coast. As well as, smaller mainland markets, that a A330-200 would be too large for.

Would love to see HAL serve either ONT and/or SNA from HNL with these A321NEOs ...
ANC could go year-round with the NBs too ...

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: HAL
Posted 2013-01-11 01:42:54 and read 9614 times.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 133):
Please stop believing we're all that stupid.

I'm sorry if I gave the impression that 'everybody' was stupid. I was specifically aiming my message at the people who, after reading the press release, still went on a long-winded guessing game of where the planes might be flying. I know most A.netters understand the difference between published range and actual range, but after reading through 131 posts I'd gotten a little shell-shocked at how far off base some of the posts were.

The facts are that most of the 767's are going away in the next few years, and in order to avoid having to drop current (profitable) routes, HA needed a replacement plane. This order has been in process for a long time, and could hardly be called a surprise to anyone following HA's growth over the past few years. And if anyone here really believes this...

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 134):
Hawaiian is keeping quiet about specific routes for its surprise order for 16 Airbus A321 NEOs from 2017 but the single aisle jets will have more than enough range to serve Fiji, Tonga, Samoa, and New Caledonia from Honolulu, as well as fit into Port Vila%u2019s Bauerfield runway in Vanuatu, maybe.

...then they don't understand what my first post here was about. I respect RWA380 and his knowledge of aviation, but that part of his post is from an Australian blog where the writer was using the 'published' range to suggest possible destinations. Again, from a reality-based standpoint, it won't be much farther than 2500 to 2800nm in an ETOPS world. Go to the great circle mapper, and put a 2800nm ring around HNL, and you'll see where it could go. Fiji is right at the edge of the ring, and Samoa is good, but places like Tonga, Vanuatu, and especially New Caledonia are probably not going to happen.

I'm all for a healthy internet debate on almost any subject. But this one had gotten way off into a land of imagination, and needed a bit of reality added to the mix.

HAL

[Edited 2013-01-11 01:46:13]

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-01-11 07:23:58 and read 9399 times.

Quoting HAL (Reply 138):
I'm all for a healthy internet debate on almost any subject. But this one had gotten way off into a land of imagination, and needed a bit of reality added to the mix.

Thanks for the update. Many a good battle has been ruined with fact. But ... as I have noticed, very often "fact" gets ignored, as the rumour or myth is far more fun!

A few years ago, our HQ was giving a talk about fleet plans, a couple "facts" came up that I found interesting:

1) The seat mile cost of the A330-300 is about 15% better than the B767-300.

2) On a 5-6 hour flight, the A321 has better seat mile costs than any other aircraft in our fleet, including the wide-bodies. (B767-300, A330-300, B777-200/300).

So to me, looking at the 5-6 hour flights HA's B767s are doing, it makes perfect sense to look at the A321 as a replacement. No it's not a wide-body, but one thing the LCCs of the world has taught us is that (non a-netter) passengers don't care what they fly, as long as its cheap!

As for range ... I have run the numbers through our flight planning computer, and our present A321s can fly YVR-HNL, with 174 passengers (full boat for us), and their baggage, against a 100 knot headwind with full ETOPS reserves. That is with two ACTs. The NEO can only be better!

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: astuteman
Posted 2013-01-11 09:21:49 and read 9296 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 139):
As for range ... I have run the numbers through our flight planning computer, and our present A321s can fly YVR-HNL, with 174 passengers (full boat for us), and their baggage, against a 100 knot headwind with full ETOPS reserves. That is with two ACTs. The NEO can only be better!

Thanks for that, Longhauler.

the first A321NEO's should typically be capable of about 2 750Nm or so on westbounds to HNL against the sort of winds that route sees, with a full pax load.

Or about 500Nm further inland than LAX..

Rgds

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-01-11 12:07:23 and read 9139 times.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 140):
Thanks for that, Longhauler.

the first A321NEO's should typically be capable of about 2 750Nm or so on westbounds to HNL against the sort of winds that route sees, with a full pax load.

Or about 500Nm further inland than LAX..

Rgds

If true, wow!

HA could use 321NEOs to serve YYC, SLC and PHX.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: astuteman
Posted 2013-01-11 13:30:33 and read 8993 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 141):
HA could use 321NEOs to serve YYC, SLC and PHX.

I'm only really going by the type of ratios we see today between nominal ranges and actual ranges on these routes, so I wouldn't take my opinions as gospel.

But I don't think I'll be out by much

As Longhauler points out though, airline planning programmes show that the existing plane, without sharklets can reliably carry a full passenger payload (174 so admittedly a bit less than HA's 190) on a 2 350Nm sector against a 100 kt headwind with full reserves.

Hence the NEO should be good for around 2 750Nm in similar conditions..

Personally I don't really buy the "the current A321 can't do US West coast to HNL" comments.
Might be true for earlier, and lighter ones perhaps..

Rgds

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: RWA380
Posted 2013-01-12 02:20:40 and read 8707 times.

Quoting HAL (Reply 138):
...then they don't understand what my first post here was about. I respect RWA380 and his knowledge of aviation, but that part of his post is from an Australian blog where the writer was using the 'published' range to suggest possible destinations. Again, from a reality-based standpoint, it won't be much farther than 2500 to 2800nm in an ETOPS world. Go to the great circle mapper, and put a 2800nm ring around HNL, and you'll see where it could go. Fiji is right at the edge of the ring, and Samoa is good, but places like Tonga, Vanuatu, and especially New Caledonia are probably not going to happen.

I'm all for a healthy internet debate on almost any subject. But this one had gotten way off into a land of imagination, and needed a bit of reality added to the mix.

HAL

HAL, I am sorry what I did in my last post, making it look like you stated what that Australian blogger wrote. Of course you handed me a very nice comment, and gracefully restated your position. I respect your posts and general way you say what you need to without being rude or mean. I have you on my respected members list for a reason. Thank you for your insight to all things HA, my favorite carrier. You are a class act! I am siding with your perspective HA has not gotten this far without being smart about their moves, why would that change now with new hubs, cities and new planes all at once

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: koruman
Posted 2013-01-12 06:30:26 and read 8539 times.

New Caledonia is less silly than it sounds.

Hawaiian Airlines already do well to the other large French Pacific territory with their weekly service to Papeete. It is essentially an inbound shopping service, to allow well-heeled Tahitians to shop at prices better than are available in their local, overtaxed market.

New Caledonia has a large ethnically-French population group, which is affluent. But whereas Tahiti is geographically isolated, Noumea is just 2 hours flying from Brisbane, and New Caledonians have traditionally vactioned and shopped on Queensland's Gold and Sunshine Coasts, ensuring that demand to Hawaii remained minimal.

But Australia's mineral-fuelled boom means that prices are no longer cheaper than in New Caledonia, and in many cases are actually higher.

So a weekly 190 seat service from Noumea to Honolulu could potentially work.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: astuteman
Posted 2013-01-12 06:49:41 and read 8487 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 144):
So a weekly 190 seat service from Noumea to Honolulu could potentially work.

For it to work the plane has to be able to reach it, of course. Which I think was the issue being raised....

Rgds

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: Revelation
Posted 2013-01-12 06:51:10 and read 8485 times.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 142):
Hence the NEO should be good for around 2 750Nm in similar conditions..

Seems like those Southern Alaskan can enjoy a respite from their cold weather:

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=&R=2750nm%40HNL&MS=wls&MR=900&MX=540x540&PM=*

Maps generated by the
Great Circle Mapper -
copyright © Karl L. Swartz.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: Polot
Posted 2013-01-12 06:58:14 and read 8462 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 146):
Seems like those Southern Alaskan can enjoy a respite from their cold weather:

AS already does that today with the 738 so it is not a surprise that the A321neo can do it, the question is if that market is big enough for 2 competitors.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: astuteman
Posted 2013-01-12 08:10:33 and read 8359 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 146):
Seems like those Southern Alaskan can enjoy a respite from their cold weather:

What makes me smile is that if 3 650Nm nominal turns into 2 650Nm actual westbound (say), then by inference it results in a real capability for 4 650Nm going eastbound.

Which makes any point on the US EAST coast doable from HNL going East 

You'd need a stop on the way back though     

Rgds

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: mercure1
Posted 2013-01-12 08:30:23 and read 8301 times.

The normal ESAD for various O&Ds, based on GC+2% and using 85th% max probabilistic winds for JAN.
Now juxtaposed w/ the most recent estimated ESAD range at MTOW w/ 190pax/nil cargo of ~ 2800nm ESAD.
Derive your own conclusion.

Orig-Dest ESAD
DEN-HNL 3,445nm
SEA-HNL 2,763nm
PDX-HNL 2,691nm
SFO-HNL 2,491nm
RNO-HNL 2,663nm
LAS-HNL 2,857nm
PHX-HNL 3,021nm
LAX-HNL 2,652nm
SAN-HNL 2,713nm

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-01-12 09:41:53 and read 8180 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 141):

PHX is served nicely with a 763 currently and after gate work is done will be upgauged to a 330 as per many sources here in PHX. Route is too lucrative to be downgauged.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-12 09:51:34 and read 8167 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 144):
New Caledonia is less silly than it sounds.

I agree, Koruman, but I would be shocked if the A321Neo has the range.

I think Ben Sandilands has looked at the nominal range, published by Airbus, which, in the real - commercial - world, has always been bollocks.

mariner

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: airportugal310
Posted 2013-01-12 10:23:03 and read 8149 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 150):

The route is NOT being upguaged. Not in 2013 at least...

There are two cities due for an upguage in 2013, both west coast. Not PHX.

Can we put that rumor to rest now, please?

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: astuteman
Posted 2013-01-12 10:27:17 and read 8135 times.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 149):
Derive your own conclusion.

You're confusing ESAD with real world range? Or you're confusing me  

The A321's Economic Still Air Range with 190 pax is almost by definition 3 650Nm.

2 800Nm (I guess) is representative of a real world range with significant headwinds

PHX-HNL for example is 2 535Nm. I'm quite content that this equates to an ESAD of 3 000Nm with 85% probability winds.
in my eyes, those figures relate to range capability for the A321NEO of 2 650Nm - 2 750Nm in the real world with 85% probability headwind, and 3 650Nm Economic Still-Air range
I.e PHX-HNL is within the airframe's capabilities

Rgds

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-01-12 10:42:32 and read 8091 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 144):
So a weekly 190 seat service from Noumea to Honolulu could potentially work.

HNL-PPT-HNL can be done as a turnaround with one crew. HNL-NOU is about 1,000 miles further and would require an overnight stop at NOU with the aircraft sitting idle. Much higher costs.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: 26point2
Posted 2013-01-12 11:22:46 and read 8030 times.

Am I the only one who hates the narrow-body on 5+ hour flights? I will miss the 767 on my SJC-HNL-SJC legs.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-01-12 12:53:08 and read 7962 times.

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 152):

It's not a rumor it's going to happen. As I've stated on manyreads it's been discussed many times on the PHX thread.


And for the love of god....PHX is not some desolate wasteland. Such a route is not going to be downgauged.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: airportugal310
Posted 2013-01-12 13:04:12 and read 7918 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 156):

Frankly, I don't really care what's being discussed where...

I suppose I should go revise my departments budget?  

Not really sure why I bother...

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: azjubilee
Posted 2013-01-12 13:14:50 and read 7898 times.

It's easy to say that at SOME point PHX will see the 332, purely based on the fleet plans. However you could say that for any HAL city at this point. But I agree, anything more than that is pure rumor and speculation.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-01-12 15:03:35 and read 7745 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 135):

What will matter is the A321NEO will have 250nm+ more range than the current 738. That opens up quite a bit of routes for HA.

What new routes do you see them using these aircraft on?

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: wn676
Posted 2013-01-12 15:18:48 and read 7704 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 156):
It's not a rumor it's going to happen. As I've stated on manyreads it's been discussed many times on the PHX thread.

At this point it's only speculation. This whole thing got started over their supposed move to T3N for wingtip clearance, which still hasn't happened aside from the odd term and tow when B6 is on the gate. Eventually it might happen but so far nothing is concrete.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: mercure1
Posted 2013-01-12 16:28:16 and read 7638 times.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 153):
2 800Nm (I guess) is representative of a real world range with significant headwinds

I should have stated 2800nm still-air range, w/ real world OEW, ETOPS reserves, +2% post delivery fuel mark-up for degradation, no ACT's, normal pax wt assumptions, e.g. 100kg/each, etc.
If HAL opt for the 2 ACT's (which I assume they may), then we are talking about 3200nm still-air range, w/ the aforementioned assumptions.

FWIW, the 85th% ESAD for HNL-PPT/PPG is ~ 2500nm ESAD.

Rgrds

[Edited 2013-01-12 16:31:03]

[Edited 2013-01-12 16:31:48]

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: koruman
Posted 2013-01-12 17:16:16 and read 7574 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 154):
HNL-PPT-HNL can be done as a turnaround with one crew. HNL-NOU is about 1,000 miles further and would require an overnight stop at NOU with the aircraft sitting idle. Much higher costs.

Very good point. I was really addressing only issues of demand, not range.

With Fiji or Vanuatu to Hawaii I can't see which direction would provide the demand. Noumea I can.

But it won't happen for precisely the reason you've laid out. The only way it conceivably could (given the absurdly high fare levels and yields ex-NOU) would be if Hawaiian converted Honolulu-Pago Pago (2500 miles) into a five times weekly A321 service, and extended it twice weekly the 1600 miles to Noumea. But the detour would probably reduce demand.

I find it interesting when I do go to Noumea to see billboards selling Los Angeles via Brisbane (Qantas) and via Auckland (Air New Zealand). And of course Runaway Bay and Robina on the Gold Coast of Australia both have significant New Caledonian communities. (The local Ford dealer once told me that the former President of New Caledonia had come to the dealership to buy a large Ford which he wanted to have converted into a limo for when he was staying at his Runaway Bay property!).

Aircalin has entered into monopolistic agreements on every major route to and from New Caledonia to keep fare levels inflated.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: gigneil
Posted 2013-01-12 20:06:37 and read 7448 times.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 145):
For it to work the plane has to be able to reach it, of course. Which I think was the issue being raised....
Quoting mercure1 (Reply 149):
SEA-HNL 2,763nm
Quoting astuteman (Reply 153):
PHX-HNL for example is 2 535Nm. I'm quite content that this equates to an ESAD of 3 000Nm with 85% probability winds.
in my eyes, those figures relate to range capability for the A321NEO of 2 650Nm - 2 750Nm in the real world with 85% probability headwind, and 3 650Nm Economic Still-Air range

I mean come on now. The 738 can fly from all these destinations now... so an A321neo will be able to do so easily.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 156):
PHX is not some desolate wasteland

...actually it is. Its the definition of a desolate wasteland. People couldn't live there without modern science, and, arguably, should not live there since the resources of the rest of the country are required in order for them to do so.

NS

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-01-12 22:40:33 and read 7363 times.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 163):


...actually it is. Its the definition of a desolate wasteland. People couldn't live there without modern science, and, arguably, should not live there since the resources of the rest of the country are required in order for them to do so.

NS

Are you seriously kidding me, and the 4.2 million who live here year round, not counting the million or so snow birds, the ASU and UofA students, and people who come out here by the throngs for the ever expanding scientific and business market here?

And who's business is it if we wanna live here? The weather here is damn perfect for my conditions. And um modern science? This is 2013. I hope we continue to thrive with the wonders of modern science. Science is how we all survive,not just Phoenicians.

Come on out sometime. Unless you don't have the stomach for the heat  
But of course it's a dry heat  

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2013-01-12 22:47:11 and read 7363 times.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 163):
...actually it is. Its the definition of a desolate wasteland. People couldn't live there without modern science, and, arguably, should not live there since the resources of the rest of the country are required in order for them to do so.

To be fair, all those people couldn't live on Manhattan or in Chicago or in any large, dense city without modern agriculture, transportation, medicine, computers, and electricity.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: HAL
Posted 2013-01-12 23:26:38 and read 7317 times.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 143):
. I respect your posts and general way you say what you need to without being rude or mean.

Thanks, although I guess you haven't read any of my 'discussions' with planemaker on single-pilot or remotely-piloted airliners.  
Quoting koruman (Reply 144):
New Caledonia is less silly than it sounds.


I read in later posts you were talking about market, not range, which I completely agree with. I fly over New Caledonia almost every time I have a trip to SYD, and I had an amazing vacation there back in the late 70's with my family. I really, really wish we were flying there, but it won't happen with the 321. It's too far to go with any decent payload. Then you have to factor in the lack of a suitable alternate for the 321 that's any closer than Port Vila, which adds another 290+ miles to the required range. I'd love to have a 2x or 3x weekly flight to Noumea, but although we might finally have the right sized aircraft for it in the 321, it doesn't have the range.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 161):
If HAL opt for the 2 ACT's (which I assume they may), then we are talking about 3200nm still-air range, w/ the aforementioned assumptions.

The problem with simply adding more ACT's for range is that it cuts into available payload. With 190 seats full (and all the baggage they would carry) the plane is probably at max gross weight even before filling the main tanks. That's how it is with the 332 also. We can fly it 17 hours nonstop TLS - HNL, but not with a profitable payload onboard. Fill the seats and baggage, and JFK-HNL for 10+ hours is about the limit. That's why all the discussion on published range is just so much hot air. The real-world range is a lot less.

HAL

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: gigneil
Posted 2013-01-13 00:18:34 and read 7238 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 165):
To be fair, all those people couldn't live on Manhattan or in Chicago or in any large, dense city without modern agriculture, transportation, medicine, computers, and electricity.

AH but they have easy access to vast amounts of raw materials that can't be found near Phoenix.

Chicago is entirely water neutral, in fact water is free of charge there. And the plains of the Heartland provide in abundance. New York also benefits from a similar topography with rivers and lakes to provide irrigation, water, and power. All of Manhattan and Chicago can be provided for within 150 miles of their borders... they're not quite as artificial a construct as Phoenix is. And I mean that - Phoenix is somewhere people were never intended to live, much like Las Vegas, and sadly Los Angeles to a great extent.

But I digress... I enjoy the dry heat in doses - its good for both the skin and lungs, at least mine. I have a buddy out that way I need to get down to see... and I actually find the stark monochrome colors very centering.

Lets relate this scorching Mercurial expanse back to planes - I'd wonder about these smaller-winged vessels getting out of Phoenix for a long ETOPS run in the dead of summer. The 737-900ER can only just muster its lardly rear end (safely) off runways on ISA days, and the MAX may improve the wing slightly but it will be adding tankage and no thrust. The A321neo, same deal - its lighter boned, sharkleted, but utlimately will be heavier and won't be receiving more thrust.

The very things that are the worst characteristics of the 757 are also its best. Its got too much wing and too much thrust, yet it has that beautiful wing and all that thrust.

NS

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-01-13 00:58:18 and read 7222 times.

Quoting HAL (Reply 166):
The problem with simply adding more ACT's for range is that it cuts into available payload. With 190 seats full (and all the baggage they would carry) the plane is probably at max gross weight even before filling the main tanks.

Lets look at that for an instance. A321neo would have 44t left for payload and fuel if one assumes a realistic DOW (taken from Turkish airlines DOW table for A321ceo and upped 1.7t for neo, 10 extra seats and 2ACTs). Lets say it's your lucky day and you have 100% loadfactor and the pax+bags are calculated with 0.1t each (220lb), this gives you 19t payload. Lets further assume the bags are bulk loaded ie no can tare, leaves you 24t trip fuel. The A320 models has a rather old style transonic wing (ie not as thick as the 737NG) therefore the frame only carries 18.7t in the wing tanks vs 20.8t for the 737NG/MAX. Therefore in most range discussions it is normally fuel limited, so also here. With 2 ACTs a 2900l on top of the 23700l in the wingtanks it can still only fuel 23.4t, ie we can't fill her up despite a realistic DOW, full pax and two cargo hold tanks, very unusual but typical for the A320s. As we haven't added catering we can use this lack of fuel weight usefully, 10kg catering per pax gives 1.9t less for fuel, ie we have 22t in the tanks in the end.

A 321neo on a max endurance trip is going to burn some 2.6t per hour average, it includes a 3% additional company trip fuel margin over the regulatory 5%. So you have 8.5 hours to spend on the leg and alternate. With the 100kt headwind legs you will get 350nm per hour, gives you grosso modo 3000nm to plan with for leg and alternate.

A practical endurance of some 8-8.5 hours is probably a good figure to remember for A321neo, then your prevailing winds and alternate situation gives you your practical trip range.

[Edited 2013-01-13 01:09:12]

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-01-13 09:36:00 and read 6881 times.

Quoting HAL (Reply 166):
The problem with simply adding more ACT's for range is that it cuts into available payload. With 190 seats full (and all the baggage they would carry) the plane is probably at max gross weight even before filling the main tanks.

I am going to assume the NEO will run into the same problem we have with our A321s, and not like the A330 at all.

The range problem is not what the aircraft can lift, it is what the aircraft can carry. Namely, I remember years ago when I flew the A320s, I was doing a YYZ-SFO flight in an A321. Full boat, against an average 150 knot headwind! With full tanks and full passenger load, we were still about 5000 Kgs below MTOW, but still could not make SFO nonstop against that wind. Not because of weight, but because of fuel capacity.

At the time, we had no ACTs installed, we have since added one, that would have solved the problem. So very likely with the A321neo, the ACTs will not cut into payload, but will allow further range.

Contrast that to the A330, in which you will never fill the tanks, but often hit MTOW. Exact opposite problem.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: RayChuang
Posted 2013-01-13 09:51:48 and read 6834 times.

I think the A321neo's are aimed specifically for service from HNL to other Pacific islands--they'll let the widebody fleet handle flights to the US mainland, Australia/New Zealand and the western Pacific.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: RWA380
Posted 2013-01-13 17:55:41 and read 6523 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 144):
But Australia's mineral-fuelled boom means that prices are no longer cheaper than in New Caledonia, and in many cases are actually higher

When in HNL last month, we ran into many Aussies stating Hawaii was a bargain, and they were doing lots of shopping.

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 155):
Am I the only one who hates the narrow-body on 5+ hour flights? I will miss the 767 on my SJC-HNL-SJC legs

No you are not the only one, I just went to HNL last month, and flew a 738 over and a 763 back, both decent flights, I liked the AS flight as we were in F, but liked the feel of the larger 763 on HA.

Quoting HAL (Reply 166):
Thanks, although I guess you haven't read any of my 'discussions' with planemaker on single-pilot or remotely-piloted airliners.

No I have not, but considering the proposed topic, I would be amazed if I held back either.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2013-01-13 17:59:25 and read 6509 times.

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 155):
Am I the only one who hates the narrow-body on 5+ hour flights? I will miss the 767 on my SJC-HNL-SJC legs.

I'm not aware that HA has announced that SJC will go to a narrow-body yet. That's speculation. Besides, you might prefer that AS 738.  

You would have really hated the old days of 707s and DC-8s on 10 hour flights. How did humanity survive those days? Can you imagine flying JFK-HNL on a narrow body DC-8 or LAX-LHR on a 707?

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: n471wn
Posted 2013-01-13 18:04:15 and read 6492 times.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 170):
I think the A321neo's are aimed specifically for service from HNL to other Pacific islands--they'll let the widebody fleet handle flights to the US mainland, Australia/New Zealand and the western Pacific.

I disagree----these are destined to take on AS and soon WN!!

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: wn676
Posted 2013-01-13 18:09:18 and read 6507 times.

Quoting HAL (Reply 166):
The problem with simply adding more ACT's for range is that it cuts into available payload. With 190 seats full (and all the baggage they would carry) the plane is probably at max gross weight even before filling the main tanks.

We have two ACTs on our 321s and can take a full load of pax and all of their bags when the tanks are full. With a Hawaii flight you'd probably see an increase in baggage that would push you closer to the limit but the aircraft should be able to handle about 190 pax and 220 bags before you start getting in to trouble. That's based off the current iteration's MTOW and tank capacity.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: HAL
Posted 2013-01-13 23:03:54 and read 6336 times.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 170):
I think the A321neo's are aimed specifically for service from HNL to other Pacific islands--they'll let the widebody fleet handle flights to the US mainland, Australia/New Zealand and the western Pacific.


Sorry, but that just isn't going to happen - especially with up to 25 coming. The 767's are going away, and HA needs aircraft to replace them, especially on the Hawaii - west coast routes! There are way too many routes that are not suited to an A330 or A350 and their 300+ seating capacity. I'm not sure why there's such a problem understanding the very clear reasoning as stated by the HA CEO - that the 321's are going mostly to the west coast.

HAL

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-13 23:46:28 and read 6253 times.

Quoting HAL (Reply 175):
I'm not sure why there's such a problem understanding the very clear reasoning as stated by the HA CEO - that the 321's are going mostly to the west coast.

So you're saying PPG is out?

mariner

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: astuteman
Posted 2013-01-14 01:34:07 and read 6189 times.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 163):
I mean come on now. The 738 can fly from all these destinations now... so an A321neo will be able to do so easily.

That's the point I think. There seems to be some debate about the A321NEO's ability to reliably reach HNL from origins "substantially" inland.
Worth remembering that I live in the UK, so "substantially" doesn't necessarily mean "East of the Rockies".  
But as you pint out, destinations 2 500Nm - 2 800Nm west of HNL should be no problem

Quoting HAL (Reply 166):
The problem with simply adding more ACT's for range is that it cuts into available payload. With 190 seats full (and all the baggage they would carry) the plane is probably at max gross weight even before filling the main tanks. That's how it is with the 332 also

The A321, even with 2 ACT's is very fuel volume limited, much like the A333, not MTOW limited like the A332

For reference, the Airbus Range/Payload chart for the current A321 is written around the 23.4 tonnes of fuel available with 2 ACT's
That shows the max fuel range at 89t TOW as exactly the 3 050Nm spec for the 185 pax nominal load - a ZFW of c. 65.6 tonnes, and a payload shown of 17 tonnes.
i.e. A full pax load and full fuel with 2 ACT's still leaves the plane 4.5 tonnes shy of its 93.5 t MTOW

For the 93.5t MTOW, it shows the max fuel range as 2 850Nm with a 21.5 tonne payload and a ZFW of 70.1 tonnes

Those figures without sharklets, or new engines.

Rgds

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: HAL
Posted 2013-01-14 03:13:20 and read 6081 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 176):
So you're saying PPG is out?

For the 321? Yes, my guess is that it's out. The PPG flights have, um, 'special' passenger weights assigned to them, along with massive amounts of baggage & cargo carried. All of that, along with the ETOPS fuel requirements, and I don't think the 321 is the best option for that route. Also, if the current schedule is kept, the flight wouldn't meet the new crew rest requirements (it's flown as a turn from HNL), which state that a flight that long would require a lay-flat bunk area for the extra pilots - something the 321 won't have.

HAL

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-01-14 05:46:35 and read 5949 times.

Quoting HAL (Reply 175):
The 767's are going away, and HA needs aircraft to replace them, especially on the Hawaii - west coast routes! There are way too many routes that are not suited to an A330 or A350 and their 300+ seating capacity.

That is a good move by HA as the cost per trip and the cost per seat will decrease. I can only postulate the fuel cost difference between a 767-300 and the 321neo, it is significant. On a 3000nm ESAD the approximate fuel burns are:

Trip 767 29t, 321neo 17t

Per seat 39kg/seat/knm, 321neo 30kg/seat/knm

I have compared with the nominal seating ie 767-300 238 seats and 321neo 185 seats

If the 767 can not be filled close to capacity but the 321neo can it will save HA some 10-12t fuel costs per trip.

[Edited 2013-01-14 05:56:17]

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-01-14 06:13:51 and read 5927 times.

The debate on here is over the top. HA doesn't have any 757s to replace to begin with. They've got many more A332s on the way. Sufficient to replace their 767 fleet.

So if all they accomplish with the 321NEOs is serving the West Coast, it'll be plenty. They'll free up a ton of widebodies to serve further in-land or serve any major city or gateway in the Pacific (HKG and SIN come to mind). Maybe they can go back to serving FAT and ONT as well with the 321NEOs.

Bonus will be that the 321NEOs will also let them serve LAS, PHX, SLC, YVR, ANC and maybe even YYC, with multiple dailies to some of those.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: EPA001
Posted 2013-01-14 06:46:23 and read 5881 times.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 177):
For the 93.5t MTOW, it shows the max fuel range as 2 850Nm with a 21.5 tonne payload and a ZFW of 70.1 tonnes

Those figures without sharklets, or new engines.

And they are pretty convincing to me.  .

Quoting ytz (Reply 180):

The debate on here is over the top.

   Could not agree more with you on this one.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-01-14 11:48:44 and read 5673 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 150):
Route is too lucrative to be downgauged.

Don't get this argument at all.

Multiple 321NEO runs offer more capacity and more frequencies (and hence choice). How is this a downgauge?

HA has a difficult operation to run. They are a small airline with a single hub in the middle of the ocean and are thus compelled to operate aircraft at the edge of their capabilities to be profitable. A 763 to anywhere they can deploy multiple 321NEOs would be a missallocation of resources. Far better to use that 763 to serve DEN or ORD directly for example.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-14 11:54:03 and read 5662 times.

Quoting HAL (Reply 178):
Also, if the current schedule is kept, the flight wouldn't meet the new crew rest requirements (it's flown as a turn from HNL), which state that a flight that long would require a lay-flat bunk area for the extra pilots - something the 321 won't have.

That's a pity - it seems ideal for the route. I guess the schedule can be changed by the time the A321Neo comes along.

Or I guess Hawaiian could open APW - the other Samoa - with the aircraft.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-14 11:57:51]

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-01-14 13:06:31 and read 5571 times.

Quoting HAL (Reply 178):
For the 321? Yes, my guess is that it's out. The PPG flights have, um, 'special' passenger weights assigned to them, along with massive amounts of baggage & cargo carried. All of that, along with the ETOPS fuel requirements, and I don't think the 321 is the best option for that route.

I would think that they might be better off using a 321NEO thrice a week than 763 twice a week. Heck, if there's enough cargo, maybe even a daily run is warranted.

Quoting HAL (Reply 178):
Also, if the current schedule is kept, the flight wouldn't meet the new crew rest requirements (it's flown as a turn from HNL), which state that a flight that long would require a lay-flat bunk area for the extra pilots - something the 321 won't have.

I would think that they would just stop operating it as a turn from HNL if they decide to deploy the 321NEO on this run.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: HAL
Posted 2013-01-14 20:27:01 and read 5421 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 179):
I have compared with the nominal seating ie 767-300 238 seats and 321neo 185 seats

If the 767 can not be filled close to capacity but the 321neo can it will save HA some 10-12t fuel costs per trip.

HA's 767 have a seating capacity from 252 to 264, with most of them in the 259 - 264 range. Load factors are high on the west coast routes, so the planes are almost always close to full.

HA's 321 are expected to have about 190 seats.

HAL

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-01-14 21:13:13 and read 5363 times.

I keep coming back to this thread as I'm very excited as to what HA could do with the NEO!    There are a tremendous number of west coast cities as well as some other route optimization.   

Quoting ytz (Reply 180):
The debate on here is over the top. HA doesn't have any 757s to replace to begin with. They've got many more A332s on the way. Sufficient to replace their 767 fleet.

But the A332s/A350s will expand HA's reach. But you are right, the A321NEOs will finish off the 767s, not the 757.

Quoting ytz (Reply 180):
Bonus will be that the 321NEOs will also let them serve LAS, PHX, SLC, YVR, ANC and maybe even YYC, with multiple dailies to some of those.

SAN, PDX, SJC, ONT? (less likely), and perhaps take FAT away from Allergiant?

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 155):

Am I the only one who hates the narrow-body on 5+ hour flights?

Are you like others where you'll complain but not pay for the cost? I'm quite happy with a TCON narrowbody. It it saves me a connection, I'll take the direct (unless cost or schedule prohibitive). If the most economical direct is a narrowbody, that is how it will be done. AS has done quite well flying narrowbodies to the Islands. Why not have HA also do so?

Quoting HAL (Reply 178):
The PPG flights have, um, 'special' passenger weights assigned to them, along with massive amounts of baggage & cargo carried.

If those weights pay their way, there is no reason not to go with an A321NEO. The flight is but 2300nm. As ytz already noted, the flight could be re-scheduled without a turn. While it might remain one of the last 767 flights, eventually economics rules out and the NEO has lower CASM than the 767.

Quoting HAL (Reply 185):
Quoting ferpe (Reply 179):
I have compared with the nominal seating ie 767-300 238 seats and 321neo 185 seats

If the 767 can not be filled close to capacity but the 321neo can it will save HA some 10-12t fuel costs per trip.

HA's 767 have a seating capacity from 252 to 264, with most of them in the 259 - 264 range. Load factors are high on the west coast routes, so the planes are almost always close to full.

Then those routes will become A350 routes eventually. Five years ago on a HA flight I asked the F/A when the planes would be replaced. She was shocked and stated "we just got these planes." But the reality is for shorter flights the NEO will have superior economics and the A330 or A350 will have better economics for longer flights.

Quoting mariner (Reply 183):
Or I guess Hawaiian could open APW - the other Samoa - with the aircraft.

I see Samoa (either) being down gauged for frequency.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-14 23:12:36 and read 5232 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 186):
I see Samoa (either) being down gauged for frequency.

That would be my guess.

I think the Samoas would be about it for South Pacific service. I'm quite happy to be proven wrong, but I think HNL-NAN is a tad too far for the Neo, at least with a full commercial payload.

The only other (non-US mainland) possibility would be HNL-MAJ and/or perhaps KWA - thus Micronesia - but I guess Cal Mike - or United these days - has the government contracts sewn up. Or should have.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-14 23:15:13]


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