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Topic: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: catiii
Posted 2013-01-15 06:39:58 and read 27507 times.

Press release here: http://m.prnewswire.com/news-release...tar-winglet-program-186934521.html

Kinda looks like the winglets on the MAX.

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: United885
Posted 2013-01-15 06:50:53 and read 27384 times.

It looks like the sharklet programm of Airbus.
They offer the new winglet type for "old" aircrafts. Why not?
Sole differnece seems for me, that Boeing adds the "scimitar" winglets as a modification on allready delivered aircrafts while airbus offers the sharklets mainly for new builded units. Both are anticipated characteristics of the comming MAX and NEO´s.

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: tjwgrr
Posted 2013-01-15 06:52:32 and read 27358 times.

It's going to make it difficult to quickly differentiate between a 739NG with the Scimitar winglets and the new MAX 9.....  confused 

They sure look cool on the -700:

http://photos.prnewswire.com/prnfull/20130115/SF42472

[Edited 2013-01-15 06:54:55]

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: LY777
Posted 2013-01-15 07:06:51 and read 27117 times.

Looks good indeed. I was sure Boeing would offer these new winglets to the 737NGs.

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2013-01-15 07:13:33 and read 27030 times.

I wonder what the price tag is on these. If it truly saves 45k gallons, that's about $150k per airplane per year.

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: BlueSky1976
Posted 2013-01-15 07:16:57 and read 26987 times.

Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 3):
It's going to make it difficult to quickly differentiate between a 739NG with the Scimitar winglets and the new MAX 9...

Not really. In the MAX winglet, both upward- and downward - pointing part originate right at the leading edge of the wing. The scimitar winglet's downward pointing part is moved back a little towards trailing edge. If you look carefully, you'll catch the difference very easily.

Besides, I believe the shape is different, when looking from the front.

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: cosyr
Posted 2013-01-15 07:18:43 and read 26947 times.

Could these have the same benefit for Airbus as they do for Boeing? If so, it seems like Airbus is a big step behind with their sharklet. Funny though, that these seem inspired by Airbus' current, but smaller winglets.

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: queb
Posted 2013-01-15 07:22:10 and read 26889 times.

Differences between both split winglets :

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-opinions-on-737-wing-tips-375348/

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: FriendlySkies
Posted 2013-01-15 07:23:08 and read 26870 times.

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 6):
Not really. In the MAX winglet, both upward- and downward - pointing part originate right at the leading edge of the wing. The scimitar winglet's downward pointing part is moved back a little towards trailing edge. If you look carefully, you'll catch the difference very easily.

The MAX will also have larger engines with chevrons on the nacelle, a larger metal intake similar to the 787, and a different tail cone. Won't be easy from far away but shouldn't be too difficult either.

I'm curious too what the pricetag on these is. I imagine UA got a good deal by launching the program, but the oldest 738s were delivered in 1998 IIRC...seems they will be around for a while yet.

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: Newark727
Posted 2013-01-15 07:24:24 and read 26827 times.

Quoting cosyr (Reply 7):
Funny though, that these seem inspired by Airbus' current, but smaller winglets.

They kind of remind me of the MD-11 winglet, which has a small downward-pointing structure also. Of course, these are different, in that they are quite a bit bigger.

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: CM
Posted 2013-01-15 07:27:04 and read 26813 times.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 5):
I wonder what the price tag is on these. If it truly saves 45k gallons, that's about $150k per airplane per year.

Didn't Airbus say they studied this kind of split tip and found no benefit vs the blended winglet? It certainly begs the question what incremental value UA sees in these winglets vs the blended winglets they replace   

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: neutronstar73
Posted 2013-01-15 07:34:32 and read 26646 times.

Quoting CM (Reply 11):
Didn't Airbus say they studied this kind of split tip and found no benefit vs the blended winglet? It certainly begs the question what incremental value UA sees in these winglets vs the blended winglets they replace

Perhaps Boeing and AP have done a little more work on their CFD and figured out a more appropriate solution to getting the benefits they wanted?

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: KC135TopBoom
Posted 2013-01-15 07:39:20 and read 26582 times.

Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 3):
It's going to make it difficult to quickly differentiate between a 739NG with the Scimitar winglets and the new MAX 9.....

Look for the chevrons and the longer tail cone.

Quoting cosyr (Reply 7):
Funny though, that these seem inspired by Airbus' current, but smaller winglets.
Quoting Newark727 (Reply 10):
They kind of remind me of the MD-11 winglet

Correct.

Also the scimiter winglets are to add some 2500 lbs to the payload of the B-738NG, or about 75 nm in range.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/aviati...eing-launches-split-140000475.html

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: queb
Posted 2013-01-15 07:48:05 and read 26451 times.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 9):
I'm curious too what the pricetag on these is

approximately $545K

http://www.aviationpartnersboeing.com/products_list_prices.php

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: FriendlySkies
Posted 2013-01-15 07:53:34 and read 26415 times.

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 12):
Perhaps Boeing and AP have done a little more work on their CFD and figured out a more appropriate solution to getting the benefits they wanted?

The fact that Boeing and APB came to this same conclusion independently (the MAX winglets are not APB design) lends confidence that there is some substance to their claims.

APB has apparently also validated the design in flight testing: http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....e-xml/awx_11_01_2012_p0-512660.xml

Honestly I think they look kind of ugly, but if it saves money that doesn't really matter.

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: diverdave
Posted 2013-01-15 08:02:10 and read 26272 times.

Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 3):
It's going to make it difficult to quickly differentiate between a 739NG with the Scimitar winglets and the new MAX 9..... confused

Not to worry, the Max will be easily recognized by its redesigned APU tail cone.  

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: fpetrutiu
Posted 2013-01-15 08:21:24 and read 26044 times.

I guess we'll see them on Airbus planes in the next 10 or so years too like the blended winglets finally making it into the A320 product line...

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: neutrino
Posted 2013-01-15 08:23:08 and read 26020 times.

Quoting United885 (Reply 2):
It looks like the sharklet programm of Airbus.
They offer the new winglet type for "old" aircrafts. Why not?
Sole differnece seems for me, that Boeing adds the "scimitar" winglets as a modification on allready delivered aircrafts while airbus offers the sharklets mainly for new builded units. Both are anticipated characteristics of the comming MAX and NEO´s.


From what I can recall, Boeing's "dual feather" for the MAX is not retrofit-table on earlier 737s.
The similar looking "scimitar" is independently offered by APB for the current NGs.

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2013-01-15 08:26:37 and read 25960 times.

The news release is very vague about which ships will get the retrofit. APB lists the configurations they hope to certify eventually, but doesn't indicate which ones UA will actually take, other than the -800 with structural provisions and the -900ER.

Any further info?

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: parapente
Posted 2013-01-15 08:55:12 and read 25646 times.

Aviation partners BOEING develop and show a new (patented) scimitar split wingtip then later Boeing show a split wingtip (but not scimitar - which I imagine is the patent bit). And both (Boeings) arrived at the same conclusion by accident? Hardly.

Of course the concept of the split wingtip is not patentiable as MD did it years ago. But as above if it lowers drag and saves fuel - who cares.

But it does make Airbus look oh so yesterday! They really should look at the A380 (80Mtr box accepted). Would probably also help their aircraft seperation issues too.

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: queb
Posted 2013-01-15 09:10:34 and read 25498 times.

Boeing split winglet for the MAX looks like a new design for a new frame but APB split scimitar winglet looks more like a modified blended winglets (best for retrofit)

APB split scimitar winglet on a BBJ for flight test
http://www.aviationpartnersboeing.com/images/img_splitscimitar1.jpg

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: catiii
Posted 2013-01-15 09:42:06 and read 25197 times.

Why does "structurally provisioned" mean in the context of their press release?

"the structurally provisioned and non-provisioned 737-700, 737-800, 737-BBJ, the structurally provisioned 737-900 and the 737-900ER. The initial FAA certification program will be for retrofit conversion of Blended Winglets on 737-800 aircraft that were delivered with wings structurally provisioned for Blended Winglets at time of delivery from the Boeing Next-Generation 737 production line ..."

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: FlyHossD
Posted 2013-01-15 09:44:56 and read 25176 times.

I'm glad AP has already found a customer, but I wonder just how low the lower/downward winglet hangs. That is, does it hang low enough to be at risk of a collision with bag carts?

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: United787
Posted 2013-01-15 09:47:55 and read 25156 times.

Winglets on drugs! Not only do the winglets go up AND down, but the winglets have little wingletees...  

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: flyabr
Posted 2013-01-15 09:57:57 and read 25586 times.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 15):
Honestly I think they look kind of ugly, but if it saves money that doesn't really matter.

I don't know. To my eye the APB winglets have more design "flare". they just look more artistic.  

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2013-01-15 10:00:30 and read 25562 times.

Quoting catiii (Reply 22):

Why does "structurally provisioned" mean in the context of their press release?

Also:
Why does the APB winglet have a different shape than the Boeing model? What would be the advantages and disadvantages?

And is the new winglet so much better than the current blended winglet that it will merit removal of the blended winglets and installation of the split winglet?

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: United_fan
Posted 2013-01-15 10:12:18 and read 25435 times.

I'm sure ground crews will have to be more careful driving near the lower winglet part.

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: flightsimer
Posted 2013-01-15 10:18:15 and read 25423 times.

Quoting flyabr (Reply 25):

I think the opposite. I think the Boeing winglets look better than the APB ones.

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: ryanov
Posted 2013-01-15 10:32:30 and read 25048 times.

Quoting catiii (Reply 22):
Why does "structurally provisioned" mean in the context of their press release?
"the structurally provisioned and non-provisioned 737-700, 737-800, 737-BBJ, the structurally provisioned 737-900 and the 737-900ER. The initial FAA certification program will be for retrofit conversion of Blended Winglets on 737-800 aircraft that were delivered with wings structurally provisioned for Blended Winglets at time of delivery from the Boeing Next-Generation 737 production line ..."

I believe modifications are needed to the wing to allow for winglets. Those that already had the modifications (strengthening?), I'm guessing.

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2013-01-15 10:40:40 and read 24862 times.

Quoting catiii (Reply 22):
Why does "structurally provisioned" mean in the context of their press release?

Early in the 737NG's run, Boeing modified the wing structure to allow for easy installation of the original APB blended winglets. "Structurally provisioned" here is referring to aircraft manufactured after Boeing made that change. Earlier aircraft were able to have blended winglets installed, but the installation required deeper wing modification.

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: yeelep
Posted 2013-01-15 10:52:54 and read 24446 times.

Quoting catiii (Reply 22):
Why does "structurally provisioned" mean in the context of their press release?

"the structurally provisioned and non-provisioned 737-700, 737-800, 737-BBJ, the structurally provisioned 737-900 and the 737-900ER. The initial FAA certification program will be for retrofit conversion of Blended Winglets on 737-800 aircraft that were delivered with wings structurally provisioned for Blended Winglets at time of delivery from the Boeing Next-Generation 737 production line ..."

A wing that was originally delivered without the structural modifications incorporated to allow winglets is different than one that was. Even after the wing has been modified for winglets post production, it is still structurally different than one that was structurally provisioned. Either way the Scimitar winglet requires further structural modification to the wing.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 26):
Why does the APB winglet have a different shape than the Boeing model?

Because the APB Scimitar winglet is a modification of the current winglet, it is not completely new.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 26):
And is the new winglet so much better than the current blended winglet that it will merit removal of the blended winglets and installation of the split winglet?

That's what APB is counting on.

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: CM
Posted 2013-01-15 10:59:51 and read 24413 times.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 30):
Early in the 737NG's run, Boeing modified the wing structure to allow for easy installation of the original APB blended winglets.

     

I think this change occurred around Line #400 in 737 NG production.

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: Tdan
Posted 2013-01-15 11:07:30 and read 23961 times.

Those look freaking cool!!!! I'm curious how much of a range boost they'll give them since UA (and CO before it) literally maxes out the range and payload on many 737 routes. I'd expect CM to follow closely with an order as well.

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2013-01-15 11:13:08 and read 23795 times.

Quoting Tdan (Reply 33):
Those look freaking cool!!!! I'm curious how much of a range boost they'll give them since UA (and CO before it) literally maxes out the range and payload on many 737 routes. I'd expect CM to follow closely with an order as well.

The site says only a 75nm boost in range, but 2,500 lb in payload.

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2013-01-15 11:18:36 and read 23603 times.

I hope DL decides to go with these on their new 739ERs.

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: Tdan
Posted 2013-01-15 11:19:57 and read 23649 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 34):
Quoting Tdan (Reply 33):
Those look freaking cool!!!! I'm curious how much of a range boost they'll give them since UA (and CO before it) literally maxes out the range and payload on many 737 routes. I'd expect CM to follow closely with an order as well.

The site says only a 75nm boost in range, but 2,500 lb in payload.

Payload is huge for UA. UIO and TGU restrictions might be gone as a result.

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-01-15 13:02:41 and read 21212 times.

From the OP link:
the program will consist of retrofitting existing Boeing Next Generation 737 Blended Winglets by replacing the aluminum winglet tip cap with a new aerodynamically shaped "Scimitar" TM winglet tip cap and by adding a new Scimitar tipped Ventral Strake.

So is this a retrofit to a the current winglet? If so, and can be done with the current structure, that is some *clever* engineering!   

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 13):
Also the scimiter winglets are to add some 2500 lbs to the payload of the B-738NG, or about 75 nm in range.

Nice...

Quoting Tdan (Reply 33):
I'm curious how much of a range boost they'll give

See above, 75nm. For a half million per shipset, that is cheap and well worth it. I bet UA will pay far less, my best thumb in the wind guess would be about $300k/shipset.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 19):

The news release is very vague about which ships will get the retrofit. APB lists the configurations they hope to certify eventually, but doesn't indicate which ones UA will actually take, other than the -800 with structural provisions and the -900ER.

Any further info?

Whomever will pay. However, the easiest retrofits will be on aircraft that came out of the factory built for winglets. Since the 738 is the most common 737NG, that is the market to go after first. Then will be the retrofitted 738 market, and then the 73G (factory and retrofit). The 739 would be also of value, but APB will be too expensive with too little benefit for the 739ER.

Quoting CM (Reply 32):
Quoting seabosdca (Reply 30):
Early in the 737NG's run, Boeing modified the wing structure to allow for easy installation of the original APB blended winglets.

     

I think this change occurred around Line #400 in 737 NG production.

Interesting... than maybe the 73G retrofit will happen prior to the non-factory built 738s...

Question: were all later 738s built for winglets even if they were not installed? How about FL's 73Gs? For it will be a cost difference between factory winglets and aftermarket winglets due to the different structure.

Quoting catiii (Reply 22):
Why does "structurally provisioned" mean in the context of their press release?

Built at the Boeing factory for winglets. The wings require some extra re-enforcement to take the stress loads of the winglets. Aftermarket kits have different re-enforcement and thus will require a different certification.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 26):
Also:
Why does the APB winglet have a different shape than the Boeing model? What would be the advantages and disadvantages?

As best I can tell the scimitar bolts onto the current APB winglet. Someone please verify... The new Boeing design is an 'all in one' that I would expect to be lighter.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 26):
And is the new winglet so much better than the current blended winglet that it will merit removal of the blended winglets and installation of the split winglet?

As best I can tell one cheap part of the current winglet is removed and then the scimitar is attached to the existing winglet. Thus a far cheaper install. Note: I am unsure if any intra-wing work is required.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 35):

I hope DL decides to go with these on their new 739ERs.

Due to the raked wingtip, retrofit to the 739ER is likely to be too expensive for the small subfleet. The wing extension the 739ER has over the 738 (due to the raked wingtips) will also reduce the benefit of wingtip devices.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: Crj 900
Posted 2013-01-15 13:07:37 and read 21003 times.

Personally i think they're ugly. I wish they would put the raked wingtips, like the 777.

[Edited 2013-01-15 13:09:23]

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: UA735WL
Posted 2013-01-15 13:24:24 and read 20581 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 37):



??????


I'm pretty sure that the 739ER does not have raked wingtips, just regular winglets. The only 737 variant w/raked wingtips is the 738 derived P-8 Poseidon produced for the US Navy.

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2013-01-15 13:40:32 and read 20150 times.

I really appreciate a clever design. The folks at APB took their already efficient and popular blended winglet and made it better. Not only that, they made the improvement to retrofit to their current winglets.

Anyone with blended winglets, (on 737's), can order these...and I bet they'll be very popular.

I wonder if they're working on a 757/767 program.

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: 817Dreamliiner
Posted 2013-01-15 13:44:14 and read 20065 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 37):
Due to the raked wingtip, retrofit to the 739ER is likely to be too expensive for the small subfleet. The wing extension the 739ER has over the 738 (due to the raked wingtips) will also reduce the benefit of wingtip devices.

What are you talking about???? The 739ER has winglets, not raked wingtips. Your probably thinking of the P-8, even so, the 739ER isnt a small subfleet... DL has 100 of them on order...

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2013-01-15 13:48:22 and read 20005 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 37):
Due to the raked wingtip, retrofit to the 739ER is likely to be too expensive for the small subfleet. The wing extension the 739ER has over the 738 (due to the raked wingtips) will also reduce the benefit of wingtip devices.

The 737-900ER does NOT have raked wingtips. Blended winglets are a standard feature on the 739ER, and according to the posted article there are plans to have the scimitars certified on most 737NG variants, including the 739ER.

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: FriendlySkies
Posted 2013-01-15 13:56:51 and read 19808 times.

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 41):
Your probably thinking of the P-8, even so, the 739ER isnt a small subfleet... DL has 100 of them on order...

And UA will have about 150-200 of them before the first MAX arrives...these things will be on the 739ER, I'd put money on it.

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: clickhappy
Posted 2013-01-15 14:26:20 and read 19349 times.

Here is another angle:

Aviation Partners Blended Split-Tip Scimitar Winglet (photo by unknown)

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: m1m2
Posted 2013-01-15 14:26:37 and read 19127 times.

Quoting United_fan (Reply 27):
I'm sure ground crews will have to be more careful driving near the lower winglet part.

I was thinking the same thing. How far would the lower part be from the ground?

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2013-01-15 14:37:36 and read 18972 times.

Since I doubt the MAX wingtip design has been frozen yet, I wonder if the Boeing design ends up with a more scimitarish tip.

Even though Boeing and APB came to their designs independently, I imagine Boeing is working with APB on the retrofit details, (since the B part of APB is Boeing), which would be good for everybody. As well, Boeing may 'develop' some styling cues which look remarkably like the aftermarket unit.

[Edited 2013-01-15 14:40:48]

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2013-01-15 14:45:07 and read 18810 times.

Quoting catiii (Reply 22):
Why does "structurally provisioned" mean in the context of their press release?

"the structurally provisioned and non-provisioned 737-700, 737-800, 737-BBJ, the structurally provisioned 737-900 and the 737-900ER. The initial FAA certification program will be for retrofit conversion of Blended Winglets on 737-800 aircraft that were delivered with wings structurally provisioned for Blended Winglets at time of delivery from the Boeing Next-Generation 737 production line ..."

Winglets get confusing.

The 900ER was certified with winglets. They are standard on that model. The 737-800 wing was made capable of supporting winglets part of the way through production.

Early 737-800s airplanes were not structurally provisioned which means they need some modifications to improve strength & stiffness. The 737-700 wing is different and needs to be modified to be able to take the loads from the winglet. There is some retrofits to the wing as well. Load alleviation needs to be added (spoiler control system modification). The wingtip lights need to be changed. The FMC needs to be updated with performance and fuel burn changes. And finally there is some additional maintenance required.

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: TZTriStar500
Posted 2013-01-15 14:45:58 and read 18789 times.

Quoting m1m2 (Reply 45):
Quoting United_fan (Reply 27):
I'm sure ground crews will have to be more careful driving near the lower winglet part.

I was thinking the same thing. How far would the lower part be from the ground?

From someone who has had his share of dealing with 'ramp-rash', those will get hit before they are gotten used to. Like the MD-11, 747-400 and the blended winglets of today, there was quite a bit of winglet damage during initial operations plus the portion that points down is now quite a bit lower than the wingtip.

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: CM
Posted 2013-01-15 15:00:32 and read 18438 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 37):
Question: were all later 738s built for winglets even if they were not installed?

Yes. The strengthening was for the baseline wing, to accommodate winglets, but you still got the stronger wing even if you did not take winglets.

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: KC135TopBoom
Posted 2013-01-15 15:53:35 and read 17379 times.

The original blended winglet was more than 8' above the ground at the wingtip, at MTOW. So, it looks like the new lower winglet portion is about 6' above the ground. I can see the airlines putting a cone on the ramp under these new winglets.

http://www.aviationpartnersboeing.com/products_737_800.php

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: Max Q
Posted 2013-01-15 15:57:30 and read 17236 times.

Looks like it would be easy to scrape the lower part of this new winglet with a wing down in a crosswind !

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: CODC10
Posted 2013-01-15 16:03:13 and read 17094 times.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 51):
Looks like it would be easy to scrape the lower part of this new winglet with a wing down in a crosswind !

Interesting thought... I've seen some close calls with conventional wingtips. I'm sure this will be designed to shear while minimizing damage.

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: KLASM83
Posted 2013-01-15 16:25:49 and read 16538 times.

Since APB is able to make modifications to the existing winglet structure, my educated guess (or biased hope) is that perhaps they can make this new Schimitar refit doable for other models with the winglet. IMHO, the 757 and the 767 would look quite sharp with these new wingtip devices.

But, for now this is only hope alone. But they look great on the 737NG!

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2013-01-15 16:48:54 and read 16078 times.

Quoting KLASM83 (Reply 53):
Since APB is able to make modifications to the existing winglet structure, my educated guess (or biased hope) is that perhaps they can make this new Schimitar refit doable for other models with the winglet.

Unlikely, in my opinion. The 757 just doesn't have enough frames that will be in service for enough more years to make the investment worthwhile. (Yes, I know a few 757s will be flying for 10+ more years -- but those are the exception.) The 767 might have a marginally better case for investment, but its existing winglets are already at the margin of what the wing can handle.

I think the best chances would be for either an A320 retrofit or for the long-expected 777-200ER winglet to be this shape.

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: infiniti329
Posted 2013-01-15 17:34:02 and read 15286 times.

It will be a matter on time before Boeing markets this to their largest 737 operator WN... and WN may just bite esp. for our 738's

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: Dash8Driver16
Posted 2013-01-15 19:56:28 and read 13317 times.

Well the Washington Corp BBJ looks good with the split scimitars. I know Gratzer has done the design calculations for the Airbus but it was never taken up by Airbus.

I wonder if these split winglets will replace the Spiroid.

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2013-01-15 20:15:47 and read 13021 times.

Can someone explain to me the aerodynamics in somewhat detailed, (but quantitative as possible!) terms?

What is the advantage to the downward airfoil? What is the advantage to the highly swept tip?

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: rampbro
Posted 2013-01-15 20:25:41 and read 12881 times.

Quoting United_fan (Reply 26):
I'm sure ground crews will have to be more careful driving near the lower winglet part.

They will have to ensure the wing tip cone is well placed, and avoid driving under the wing. The policy and training material should surely be updated to reflect this.

Other than that, very beautiful modification, quite frankly groundbreaking. I look forward to the future photographic representations of this feature and the new effects it will produce.

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-01-15 20:40:26 and read 12755 times.

Quoting UA735WL (Reply 38):
The only 737 variant w/raked wingtips is the 738 derived P-8 Poseidon produced for the US Navy.

Oops. That what I get for working in the defense industry. Thank you.   

So that moves the 739ER up on the list.  
Quoting CM (Reply 48):
Yes. The strengthening was for the baseline wing, to accommodate winglets, but you still got the stronger wing even if you did not take winglets.

Thank you. I suspected as much, but I wanted to be sure.

Quoting rampbro (Reply 57):
very beautiful modification, quite frankly groundbreaking.

Agreed. Very elegant.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: Planemaker
Posted 2013-01-15 22:00:43 and read 11923 times.

Quoting Dash8Driver16 (Reply 55):
Well the Washington Corp BBJ looks good with the split scimitars.

Just in case people are not aware, "grandpa" Washington (retired and mainly in Montana) was one of the founders of Aviation Partners. He has a son at the company and another son north of the border in another family biz... Seaspan.

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: Darksnowynight
Posted 2013-01-15 23:40:59 and read 11155 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 58):

In your defense, it's an easy mistake to make. IIRC, the P8 does have the same wing as the 739ER. So if that's how you knew it by, it is a somewhat logical leap...

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: neutrino
Posted 2013-01-16 06:42:03 and read 8029 times.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 60):
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 58):
Oops. That what I get for working in the defense industry.

In your defense, it's an easy mistake to make. IIRC, the P8 does have the same wing as the 739ER. So if that's how you knew it by, it is a somewhat logical leap...

It's just a little slip of his saber.  

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: 777way
Posted 2013-01-16 07:11:36 and read 7931 times.

So ugly ,just as one gets used to a type another deformity pops up, thank goodneess I'm not as passionate about aircraft anymore,

Topic: RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets
Username: Derik737
Posted 2013-01-16 20:14:20 and read 7353 times.

Quoting CM (Reply 31):
I think this change occurred around Line #400 in 737 NG production.

Add 378 more for the 738. -700 is a different story.


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