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Topic: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: g500
Posted 2013-01-14 03:02:02 and read 6584 times.

Looks like United got caught with their hand in the cookie jar

"CHICAGO — A transportation agency plans to file a lawsuit Monday alleging that United Airlines is falsely claiming to buy huge amounts of jet fuel out of a small, rural Illinois office that doesn't even have a computer to avoid paying tens of millions of dollars in taxes in Chicago, where the purchases are allegedly being made.

The Regional Transportation Authority alleges United Aviation Fuels Corp., a subsidy of United Airlines, has operated a "sham" office in the DeKalb County community of Sycamore since 2001 after reaching an agreement to pay the town more than $300,000 a year - a fraction of what it would have owed in sales taxes in Chicago and Cook County."

Read more here: http://www.star-telegram.com/2013/01...-united-running.html#storylink=cpy

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-01-14 03:20:39 and read 6552 times.

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):

Looks like United got caught with their hand in the cookie jar

Apparently, perfectly legal.

"While most states collect sales tax based on where products are received, Illinois collects the tax based on where a company claims a purchase was accepted."

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/artic...merican-airlines-of-fuel-tax-dodge

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: jcwr56
Posted 2013-01-14 03:37:50 and read 6499 times.

Nothing but a money grab....Totally legal under the current State statues and when the politicans set this up missed the loophole they themselves created.

As someone who lives in Illinois, this type of going after every nickle and dime by local and state agencies is really getting old.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: Revelation
Posted 2013-01-14 04:32:32 and read 6375 times.

Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 2):
Nothing but a money grab....Totally legal under the current State statues and when the politicans set this up missed the loophole they themselves created.

Or perhaps they were from the DeKalb County community of Sycamore and inserted said "loophole".

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: jcwr56
Posted 2013-01-14 05:41:43 and read 6228 times.

Without going too far off topic...in Illinois, you have Chicago (and Cook county) and then the rest of the State. A lot of laws created usually separate the two and in this instance, you have UA and AA taking advantage of it.

If UA and AA found a legal work around (and they have), then bless their corporate hearts for doing so.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: EaglePower83
Posted 2013-01-14 06:13:58 and read 6137 times.

LOL! Holy crap I worked in Sycamore for almost 4yrs in college.
The things that go on that you don't know about......

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: stlgph
Posted 2013-01-14 06:46:28 and read 6015 times.

Best part is ... it appears the Sycamore City Council knew exactly what they were doing ...

http://www.cityofsycamore.com/City%2...uncil/2003%20Agenda/agen053003.pdf

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: EaglePower83
Posted 2013-01-14 07:00:37 and read 5964 times.

Quoting stlgph (Reply 6):
Best part is ... it appears the Sycamore City Council knew exactly what they were doing ...

http://www.cityofsycamore.com/City%2...3.pdf

That's crazy!
I used to eat chinese food in that mini plaza with old coworkers!

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: BlueLine
Posted 2013-01-14 07:01:54 and read 5964 times.

Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 2):
Nothing but a money grab....Totally legal under the current State statues and when the politicans set this up missed the loophole they themselves created.

As someone who lives in Illinois, this type of going after every nickle and dime by local and state agencies is really getting old.

Yup. With the state and city's financials the way they are and no agreement on pension reform, they are just looking for any way to get a few more bucks. Maybe they are looking at ways to get every nickel they can out of ORD. They just more than doubled the CTA fare to leave ORD (but not MDW or anywhere else) from $2.25 to $5.00.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: g500
Posted 2013-01-14 07:34:10 and read 5864 times.

Quoting BlueLine (Reply 8):

And they will get a few bucks out of this, I promise you

United is Chicago's "hometown airline", they don't want to come across as cheating the home city, they do not want any bad publicity associated with this..

United will settle out of court and they will be writing a check.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: STT757
Posted 2013-01-14 07:39:41 and read 5849 times.

Chicago really can't complain when they used tax breaks to lure the headquarters of the newly merged UA to downtown Chicago.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: SavannahMark
Posted 2013-01-14 07:40:43 and read 5834 times.

Quoting g500 (Reply 9):
And they will get a few bucks out of this, I promise you

United is Chicago's "hometown airline", they don't want to come across as cheating the home city, they do not want any bad publicity associated with this..

United will settle out of court and they will be writing a check.

Sorry, but in a industry that yields such tiny profit margins to begin with, I don't see United rolling over on this. As was previously observed, this is just a regional transportation agency trying to place their greedy hands in the pockets of a corporate player that is doing what it must to curb costs. I suppose time will tell.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: planespotting
Posted 2013-01-14 07:42:57 and read 5825 times.

It's legal, but obviously it's a workaround that doesn't exactly go along with the spirit of taxation. The fuel never gets to Dekalb county - it's dispensed in Cook county.

When I lived in Chicagoland and filled up my car in Cook county, I paid Cook county/municipality taxes - that's why if I needed gas I would sometimes try to time it so that I could fill up while I was driving in Lake county, because gas taxes were cheaper ... but I had to drive my car there to do it. I couldn't just call up the the village of Lincolnshire (in Lake) and say that I really wanted to pay all of my gas taxes there even though I typically got gas in Northbrook (in Cook).

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: jayunited
Posted 2013-01-14 07:49:22 and read 5792 times.

There is nothing illegal with what United and American are doing. United does have an office in Sycamore and Americans office is right up the street from United's. So for the RTA (Regional Transportation Authority) and Cook County to say they are filing a lawsuit against United but not American even though by the RTA's and county's own admission both airlines are doing the same thing is grounds enough for United's lawyers to have this case thrown out of court. Neither airline is breaking the law the RTA is just upset that they did not think of something like this and Cook County is just mad that they are not getting millions of dollars in fuel tax revenue. The RTA does not represent the City of Chicago (although they have included the City in it). As it stands right now both the Mayor and the City are staying out of this because the Mayor and the City fought hard to keep United's headquarters here in downtown Chicago and the Mayor recognizes that the city gets tens of millions of dollars in tax revenue from O'Hare operations Cook County also gets tax revenue from O'Hare because the airport is in Cook County.

And for those of you who do not live in Chicago or Cook County the one thing you need to understand is that the RTA is a poorly run agency that has been ran into the ground by people who have no clue how to run a business. The RTA's mismanagement has cost the CTA (Chicago Transportation Authority they run the buses and trains in Chicago) millions of dollars and as a matter of fact today CTA fares went up because the RTA needs more money and they have in the past looked to the City of Chicago and Cook County for a bailout which hasn't happened. The RTA feels like if they can win these ridiculous lawsuits then perhaps they can get a some money from it. United and American have nothing to worry about here they are in full compliance with Illinois law.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: ripcordd
Posted 2013-01-14 07:58:03 and read 5746 times.

Crook County and the Shady City of Chicago got burnt on this one they will have to try and pass some laws to stop this but what they are doing is legal and they will fight it. Maybe they should lay off some of the 50 alderman making 100K plus for part time work also they get 176K for employee staff and 73K to pay for misc expenses which can be used just about anything they want there is 2.7 mil people in chicago est and 8.2 mil in NY with 51 alderman making 112K. I'd like to see Crook County and Chgo go after their own expenses as much as they try to find ways to milk companies out of there money.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: kngkyle
Posted 2013-01-14 08:00:44 and read 5738 times.

Quoting SavannahMark (Reply 11):
Sorry, but in a industry that yields such tiny profit margins to begin with, I don't see United rolling over on this. As was previously observed, this is just a regional transportation agency trying to place their greedy hands in the pockets of a corporate player that is doing what it must to curb costs. I suppose time will tell.

In a similar lawsuit filed a few years ago and currently still in court, the city of Chicago and Cook County both joined the RTA. So it might not just be a 'regional transportation agency'. Plus it's not like the RTA is some tiny governmental agency, they oversee the CTA, PACE, and Metra, which together move about 2 million people a day.

From an outside point of view it does seem like what they are doing is legal based on Illinois law, but I'd imagine they have a case to make. We shall see.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: kngkyle
Posted 2013-01-14 08:03:22 and read 5724 times.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 13):
iling a lawsuit against United but not American even though by the RTA's and county's own admission both airlines are doing the same thing is grounds enough for United's lawyers to have this case thrown out of court.

That is because American is currently in bankruptcy.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-01-14 08:07:10 and read 5701 times.

Quoting BlueLine (Reply 8):
They just more than doubled the CTA fare to leave ORD (but not MDW or anywhere else) from $2.25 to $5.00.

. . . which should have happened ages ago. It's a good - albeit imperfect - way to get those who do not pay taxes to pay their fair share of CTA costs.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: bcoz
Posted 2013-01-14 08:13:50 and read 5687 times.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 13):
So for the RTA (Regional Transportation Authority) and Cook County to say they are filing a lawsuit against United but not American even though by the RTA's and county's own admission both airlines are doing the same thing is grounds enough for United's lawyers to have this case thrown out of court.

The story I heard this morning on WBBM-AM indicated that the RTA does indeed plan on filing suit against American as well.

Two things are certain here: 1). United and American are complying with the letter of Illinois law here. 2). The RTA isn't exactly the best run organization on the face of the planet.

That being said... as a person who has relied on both CTA and Metra to get to work for the past eight years, I'd personally like to see United and American pay their fair share of taxes to RTA. While both agencies (PACE seems to be a bit better) have big problems in terms of efficiency, they continue to cut some service (CTA bus routes) and raise fares. And that's something I personally (greedily) would rather not see.

It is no surprise that this came out today... The day when CTA pass costs went up... and the ORD surcharge goes into effect.

bcoz

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: bcoz
Posted 2013-01-14 08:15:49 and read 5680 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 17):
. . . which should have happened ages ago. It's a good - albeit imperfect - way to get those who do not pay taxes to pay their fair share of CTA costs.

I have to agree with you on that. I would, however, like to see the Chicago Card and Chicago Card Plus exemptions remain in place beyond six months.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2013-01-14 08:37:28 and read 5624 times.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 13):
As it stands right now both the Mayor and the City are staying out of this because the Mayor and the City fought hard to keep United's headquarters here in downtown Chicago and the Mayor recognizes that the city gets tens of millions of dollars in tax revenue from O'Hare operations Cook County also gets tax revenue from O'Hare because the airport is in Cook County.

Exactly. Think about the other revenues they gained. United has right about 12,000 employees that physically work in the City of Chicago. (The two headquarters buildings, plus ORD)

I work in Willis, I go out for lunch every day (I'm a little lazy to make my lunch). I'd say an average lunch runs ~$8. 8*.11=.88. .88*5*50=$220 per year. Multiply that out across the 4k+ employees just in downtown Chicago and that sales tax alone is a decent sum. Then add in the payroll taxes, and corporate taxes that those lunch $$ also stimulate and you're talking about a LOT of money for the city being generated. And that's just lunch money.... Then talk about the fact that a vast majority of those employees live in Cook County, and a lot in Chicago proper. And that 98% of them are taking public transit (RTA) to work... I take the EL/Bus to work, which is $1032 per year (pre-rate hike).

All in all, I personally pay somewhere north of 1k in sales taxes, plus 1k in CTA fees, plus over 3k in IL taxes. IL and Chicago in particular are not cheap places to live.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2013-01-14 08:40:29 and read 5604 times.

Quoting bcoz (Reply 18):
That being said... as a person who has relied on both CTA and Metra to get to work for the past eight years, I'd personally like to see United and American pay their fair share of taxes to RTA.

Think about how much CTA revenue AA and UA generate by being hubbed at ORD and the feed that CTA gets from that! I'm curious to see what happens with MDW if they pursue that as well.

Quoting bcoz (Reply 19):
I have to agree with you on that. I would, however, like to see the Chicago Card and Chicago Card Plus exemptions remain in place beyond six months.

I've not read the letter of the increase, but is there a surcharge for those of us with unlimited cards? If so, how does this affect employees who work at ORD?

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-01-14 08:45:37 and read 5575 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 10):
Chicago really can't complain when they used tax breaks to lure the headquarters of the newly merged UA to downtown Chicago.

I find it hard to believe the incentives were high enough to put up with things like this, never mind everything else in IL

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: LFutia
Posted 2013-01-14 09:00:45 and read 5499 times.

Quoting planespotting (Reply 12):
When I lived in Chicagoland and filled up my car in Cook county, I paid Cook county/municipality taxes - that's why if I needed gas I would sometimes try to time it so that I could fill up while I was driving in Lake county, because gas taxes were cheaper ... but I had to drive my car there to do it. I couldn't just call up the the village of Lincolnshire (in Lake) and say that I really wanted to pay all of my gas taxes there even though I typically got gas in Northbrook (in Cook).

When I am up in Lake County, I try to fill up there also as it is 20 cents cheaper than Cook County and 30 cents cheaper than Chicago.

Leo/ORD

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: planespotting
Posted 2013-01-14 09:07:00 and read 5476 times.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 20):
I work in Willis, I go out for lunch every day (I'm a little lazy to make my lunch). I'd say an average lunch runs ~$8. 8*.11=.88. .88*5*50=$220 per year. Multiply that out across the 4k+ employees just in downtown Chicago and that sales tax alone is a decent sum. Then add in the payroll taxes, and corporate taxes that those lunch $$ also stimulate and you're talking about a LOT of money for the city being generated. And that's just lunch money.... Then talk about the fact that a vast majority of those employees live in Cook County, and a lot in Chicago proper. And that 98% of them are taking public transit (RTA) to work... I take the EL/Bus to work, which is $1032 per year (pre-rate hike).

Exactly - you're paying your share to live and work and operate in Chicago. Your employer should too.

FYI, the reason they operate out of ORD is because lots of people fly out of there because lots of people live and work around Chicagoland, which is brought to you by the city of Chicago. People take the CTA to get to O'Hare, people take Metra to get to O'Hare, some people probably even take Pace to get there. Why shouldn't United pay what they deserve to pay because of the fuel they're using - if they want lower fuel taxes, then lobby the city of Chicago/RTA/the state of Illinois to give them an actual break, not just use a loophole.

I'm not saying United is breaking the law by doing what they're doing, but they don't really have a moral reason to not pay fuel taxes where they pump the gas. The demand for air travel in and out of ORD will not go away if United decided to up and move their hub to STL or something.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: stlgph
Posted 2013-01-14 09:17:56 and read 5673 times.

Quoting planespotting (Reply 24):

Disagree.

It's no different than driving across the county line or state line to get a cheaper deal on gas or cigarettes or milk or groceries.

You have every right to dispense your wallet as you see fit - so does United Air Lines.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: liftsifter
Posted 2013-01-14 09:23:06 and read 5660 times.

Airline mixed with Fuel is not a good combination. Look at fuel surcharges. Rose more than 40% in 2011, when the price of gasoline only rose 24%. Every airline wants to be the best, unfortunetly none can afford it.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-01-14 09:28:08 and read 5707 times.

Quoting planespotting (Reply 24):
Exactly - you're paying your share to live and work and operate in Chicago. Your employer should too.

Why would an employer want to be in Chicago though? The cost of doing business is so much higher than even nearby states, and it's not like the employer gets anything "for" that extra cost.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: KC135TopBoom
Posted 2013-01-14 09:30:53 and read 5694 times.

Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 2):
Nothing but a money grab....Totally legal under the current State statues and when the politicans set this up missed the loophole they themselves created.

As someone who lives in Illinois, this type of going after every nickle and dime by local and state agencies is really getting old.

  

Quoting kngkyle (Reply 15):
From an outside point of view it does seem like what they are doing is legal based on Illinois law, but I'd imagine they have a case to make. We shall see.

Even as explained by the RTA, UA and AA practice of buying fuel for their operations at ORD is legal.

Quoting bcoz (Reply 18):
Two things are certain here: 1). United and American are complying with the letter of Illinois law here. 2). The RTA isn't exactly the best run organization on the face of the planet.

  

Quoting bcoz (Reply 18):
That being said... as a person who has relied on both CTA and Metra to get to work for the past eight years, I'd personally like to see United and American pay their fair share of taxes to RTA.

Why? The RTA doesn't own or sell the fuel, they don't own the pipelines, they don't even own the hydrants the fuel comes out of. UA and AA just have better business smarts than the RTA.

It was just a few months ago when it came out the RTA/CTA defrauded the US Government of up to $150M by falsifying bus deadhead milage reports back to 2003, and possibly back as far as 1982 (which would mean the stole even more US taxpayer money).

http://freebeacon.com/chicago-fraud/

“We know why it’s a sensitive issue,” he said, noting that there were several potential conflicts of interest tied up in the case.

CTA’s General Counsel from 2001-2004, Robert Rivkin, is the current General Counsel of the DOT and Valerie Jarrett, Chair of the CTA from 1995 to 2003, is a Senior Advisor to President Obama,”according to the Cause of Action report."

BTW, Valerie Jarrett is the same person who got 200 Chicago Cops to guard her daughters wedding in 2012, at no charge to her or the wedding party. Mayor Emmanual assigned the cops to the assignment, many were on OT, at a significant cost to the City of Chicago.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: planespotting
Posted 2013-01-14 09:34:42 and read 5638 times.

Quoting stlgph (Reply 25):
It's no different than driving across the county line or state line to get a cheaper deal on gas or cigarettes or milk or groceries.

I used this analogy in an earlier post to show why what United is doing isn't the same thing - to get cheaper gas for my car, I have to physically drive my car to a different municipality. United can't do that with aircraft, nor would they want to. The "spirit" of gas taxation is that the entity in which you're paying taxes to gets tax dollars for providing you the facilities/infrastructure to be able to operate your car. In the same vein are fuel taxes for aircraft, which in this case apparently a percentage of which go towards facilities/infrastructure to help transport passengers to get to the airport to get on your planes.

The city of Sycamore isn't providing any of that (beyond a very small footprint of roads that someone could feasibly argue helps people in Sycamore drive on hwy 38 or get to I-88 to drive to ORD). They're getting money to save United Airlines money.

Again, I'm not saying United is doing anything illegal - just that they are a business who is getting an advantage that at the same time disadvantages an entity that is trying to help United get passengers.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: Flighty
Posted 2013-01-14 09:34:45 and read 5650 times.

Quoting planespotting (Reply 24):
Exactly - you're paying your share to live and work and operate in Chicago. Your employer should too.

That fair share grows and grows. Chicago's costs (payments to a connected elite) have skyrocketed. There's nothing fair about that.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: planespotting
Posted 2013-01-14 09:38:02 and read 5636 times.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 30):
That fair share grows and grows. Chicago's costs (payments to a connected elite) have skyrocketed. There's nothing fair about that.

Notice I didn't say "fair." And I completely agree - that's one of the reasons my wife and I left Chicagoland and moved back to Iowa  
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 27):
Why would an employer want to be in Chicago though? The cost of doing business is so much higher than even nearby states, and it's not like the employer gets anything "for" that extra cost.

Agreed - but you'll have to ask United Airlines that. Like I said, they could move all their employees and their midwest hub to St. Louis, Milwaukee, Indianapolis - any of those cities would be happy to take them. But they obviously see value in Chicago/ORD, and if they're using it, they should pay the price to do so, or lobby the state of Illinois for an official United Airlines fuel tax break.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: stlgph
Posted 2013-01-14 09:38:47 and read 5623 times.

and while we're at it, let's talk about all the companies that incorporate in Delaware.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-01-14 09:40:24 and read 5616 times.

Quoting kngkyle (Reply 15):
From an outside point of view it does seem like what they are doing is legal based on Illinois law, but I'd imagine they have a case to make. We shall see.

If UA and AA are following the law, the RTA has no case to make. This is a just another example of IL corruption and waste.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: Flighty
Posted 2013-01-14 09:44:32 and read 5589 times.

Quoting planespotting (Reply 32):
Notice I didn't say "fair."

Thanks for pointing that out.   

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-01-14 09:49:25 and read 5586 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 35):

If UA and AA are following the law, the RTA has no case to make. This is a just another example of IL corruption and waste.

I just can't imagine any company wanting to HQ in IL. I love how Chicago makes a big deal of all the jobs they've created (inside the loop, with huge tax breaks), that came from abroad (outside the loop) .

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: bcoz
Posted 2013-01-14 10:17:28 and read 5467 times.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 21):
I've not read the letter of the increase, but is there a surcharge for those of us with unlimited cards? If so, how does this affect employees who work at ORD?

The surcharge only impacts people using paper pay-as-you-go magnetic transit cards. If you have an unlimited ride paper transit card OR a pay-as-you-go plastic Chicago Card or Chicago Card Plus, you are exempt from the surcharge (the Chicago Card exceptions are only for six months as I understand it... I think that is partly because of the blow back the CTA got from ORD employees).

Base fares are not going up otherwise, but passes are. For instance, my monthly pass will now cost $100 instead of $86 (it went up to $86 from $75 a few years ago). I think daily passes will go from $7 to $10, etc.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2013-01-14 11:05:00 and read 5330 times.

36 posts and I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the possibility of UA using a threat to relocate to the sCO headquarters in Houston to get a settlement.

Heck, moving back to Houston might be better in the long run for UA, even if they have to forfeit the incentives from Chicago and the State of Illinois and pay break-up fees in the process. If DL could pay a $250+M breakup fee in MSP, UA could pay a similar or bigger breakup fee in Chicago.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-01-14 11:11:10 and read 5304 times.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 37):
Heck, moving back to Houston might be better in the long run for UA, even if they have to forfeit the incentives from

Without a doubt, for many reasons; first and foremost is the economic state of IL which will necessitate economic higher taxes and/or lower services in IL, if that's even possible

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: FriendlySkies
Posted 2013-01-14 11:28:08 and read 5242 times.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 37):
36 posts and I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the possibility of UA using a threat to relocate to the sCO headquarters in Houston to get a settlement.

Why bother? What they are doing is not illegal, therefore the RTA has no case and this should be immediately thrown out. The PR damage is already done, so UA has nothing to gain by settling.

We can discuss ethics all we want, but unless the state closes this loophole, there is no reason to expect UA or AA or anyone else to stop taking advantage of it. Ethics and business in this country (and certainly not in IL) don't mix. Not saying that's right, it's just the unfortunate truth.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: COflyerBOS
Posted 2013-01-14 11:30:30 and read 5249 times.

You reap what you sow.

Good luck, United.

This would have never happened down in Houston.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: ytib
Posted 2013-01-14 11:38:19 and read 5211 times.

At least it is not just the passengers United knows how to squeeze some extra money out these days.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: enilria
Posted 2013-01-14 11:49:53 and read 5175 times.

Quoting g500 (Reply 9):
United is Chicago's "hometown airline", they don't want to come across as cheating the home city, they do not want any bad publicity associated with this..

United will settle out of court and they will be writing a check.

I doubt it. It's a sham everybody knew about. I think the most likely outcome is that the law is changed.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 10):
Chicago really can't complain when they used tax breaks to lure the headquarters of the newly merged UA to downtown Chicago.

True. Poor Elk Grove.

Quoting COflyerBOS (Reply 40):

You reap what you sow.

Good luck, United.

This would have never happened down in Houston.

Exactly the point I was headed toward. Knowing UA, I would not be a bit surprised to see this turn into the same acrimony that occurred in Houston. UA is childish enough to start burning bridges. They should just quietly fight it in court where they will probably win, but I bet they start making statements about not supporting the hometown airline and such.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-01-14 11:55:41 and read 5154 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 35):
I just can't imagine any company wanting to HQ in IL. I love how Chicago makes a big deal of all the jobs they've created (inside the loop, with huge tax breaks), that came from abroad (outside the loop) .

IL has to give gigantic tax breaks to large corporations to sty in the state, CBT, CAT, Boeing etc. They make up the lost revenue by raising taxes on small business, who leave the state depriving the state of revenue. What they need to do is stop playing thess moronic crony capitalist games and simply have a low tax rate for everyone.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: Revelation
Posted 2013-01-14 12:25:45 and read 5096 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 27):
Why would an employer want to be in Chicago though? The cost of doing business is so much higher than even nearby states, and it's not like the employer gets anything "for" that extra cost.

I couldn't make much sense of it at the time either. As noted, they even pulled down operations in suburban towns to get everything centralized in the Sears(sic) Tower. I guess they feel it gives the best shot at getting and retaining their employees?

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 39):
What they are doing is not illegal, therefore the RTA has no case and this should be immediately thrown out.

I have to agree. The pols can't put dubious loopholes in the law to benefit corporations (and in turn, themselves, via campaign donations etc) then sue the corporations for using the loopholes.

Quoting enilria (Reply 42):
I think the most likely outcome is that the law is changed.

I hope so, but the place to do that is in the legislature, not the courts.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: ripcordd
Posted 2013-01-14 12:30:23 and read 5088 times.

Just move the HQ to sycamore

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-01-14 13:04:17 and read 5041 times.

Quoting COflyerBOS (Reply 40):
You reap what you sow.

Exactly. UA happily took Chicago's tax breaks and moved its HQ there, then tried to cheat the city out of its tax revenue. Why should they be surprised that they're being sued?

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: stlgph
Posted 2013-01-14 13:08:53 and read 5015 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 46):
Exactly. UA happily took Chicago's tax breaks and moved its HQ there, then tried to cheat the city out of its tax revenue. Why should they be surprised that they're being sued?

Except the Sycamore operation has been around ... legally ... since 2001. Long before the move to Chicago.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: bcoz
Posted 2013-01-14 13:30:08 and read 4928 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 46):
Exactly. UA happily took Chicago's tax breaks and moved its HQ there, then tried to cheat the city out of its tax revenue. Why should they be surprised that they're being sued?

I'm not sure if others have pointed this out before, but UA would have been subject to the tax regardless of whether or not it moved its HQ downtown from Elk Grove Village. The RTA tax applies in Cook, Lake, DuPage, Will, Kane and McHenry Counties I believe. The rate in the collar counties is less, but it wouldn't really matter as Elk Grove Village and ORD are in Cook County.

[Edited 2013-01-14 13:30:28]

[Edited 2013-01-14 13:30:51]

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: BMI727
Posted 2013-01-14 15:49:35 and read 4746 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 46):
UA happily took Chicago's tax breaks and moved its HQ there, then tried to cheat the city out of its tax revenue. Why should they be surprised that they're being sued?

The city got them to move their headquarters by giving them tax incentives and is surprised when United does other things to avoid taxes too?

Quoting stlgph (Reply 47):
Except the Sycamore operation has been around ... legally ... since 2001. Long before the move to Chicago.

I don't see anything wrong with what United did.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: stlgph
Posted 2013-01-14 20:10:50 and read 4439 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 49):
I don't see anything wrong with what United did.

Me neither. I think it's brilliant.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: bohica
Posted 2013-01-14 21:53:25 and read 4178 times.

Sounds to me like someone at the RTA didn't receive his bribe money.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-01-14 23:51:54 and read 3834 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 49):
The city got them to move their headquarters by giving them tax incentives and is surprised when United does other things to avoid taxes too?

Yes. If I wave half or your debt to me, am I supposed to take it kindly if you cheat me out of the other half?

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-01-15 05:23:34 and read 3432 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 52):
am I supposed to take it kindly if you cheat me out of the other half?

How is United cheating?

Had the City wished to do so, I'm sure they could have negotiated something about fuel taxes in to the incentive deal. The City chose not to do so. Their loss.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-01-15 05:54:14 and read 3387 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 53):
How is United cheating?

By pretending to do business in a county in which it doesn't?

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: enilria
Posted 2013-01-15 06:12:37 and read 3354 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 44):
Quoting enilria (Reply 42):
I think the most likely outcome is that the law is changed.

I hope so, but the place to do that is in the legislature, not the courts.

Yes and no. That may be the goal. After they lose in court, they can cry about it's unfairness and the accompanying angst might propel voter opinion enough to get the law changed. Obviously, if they thought they had the votes to change the law now, they would have done it.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-01-15 06:13:47 and read 3359 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 54):
By pretending to do business in a county in which it doesn't?

It's legal. It's a dumb law that should be changed, but following the law isn't "cheating."

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: BC77008
Posted 2013-01-15 06:19:45 and read 3346 times.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 21):

I've not read the letter of the increase, but is there a surcharge for those of us with unlimited cards? If so, how does this affect employees who work at ORD?

Right now employees of ORD must use the Chicago/Chicago Plus card (which is directly linked to a checking account and auto-reloaded) in order to still get fares x-ORD for $2.25. This will expire in July but the city has stated they are working on a more permanent solution for ORD employees. I understand the city's reasoning for increasing the fare to $5.00 x-ORD but I'm puzzled as to why they have not done the same thing at MDW

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 37):
36 posts and I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the possibility of UA using a threat to relocate to the sCO headquarters in Houston to get a settlement.

As someone who moved to Chicago from Houston due to the UA merger (my partner works at the operations control center in Willis tower) I'd be VERY, VERY happy for UA to pay for our move back. Nothing against Chicago at all, but really want to get back to Texas. We've always told ourselves that living in Chicago would be "just for a few years..."

Quoting COflyerBOS (Reply 40):
Good luck, United.
This would have never happened down in Houston.

I don't know how to do the 'check mark' thingy but you get a checkmark, (and a gold star)


A few months ago United gave up a portion of tax incentives they were reaping from the City of Chicago when they announced they were going to consolidate their headquarters into the Willis Tower. United's headquarters currently operate out of two downtown buildings (Willis Tower and Wacker Drive bldg). Apparently the "deal" they had with the City was for both buildings. But United, all on it's own, decided that the nice and prudent thing to do would be to return over $5M in tax incentives to the City of Chicago. http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...tif-agreement-incentive-agreement. Boggles the mind.

[Edited 2013-01-15 06:24:37]

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-01-15 08:08:33 and read 3248 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 56):
It's legal. It's a dumb law that should be changed, but following the law isn't "cheating."

I already said it all before: pretending to do business in a county in which it doesn't could be seen as fraud. Let's see what the court will say.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: sancho99504
Posted 2013-01-15 08:12:32 and read 3232 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 54):

Its perfectly legal what they did. many companies are incorporated in Delaware to avoid taxes, y'et many of them don't even do business in Delaware. I live in Oklahoma, yet my truck and trailer are registered in Indiana due to the lower costs of licensing and registration.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: FriendlySkies
Posted 2013-01-15 08:15:35 and read 3228 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 58):
I already said it all before: pretending to do business in a county in which it doesn't could be seen as fraud. Let's see what the court will say.


You're confusing ethical integrity with legality. United followed the letter of law. Whether that is ethical or not is another question, but they cannot be charged with a crime that doesn't exist. Taking advantage of loopholes is not illegal (just look at all the US corporations that pay no income tax), and every company (yes, the ones in Houston too) will take advantage of them every time if it helps the bottom line.

You can't just call something fraud because you don't like it. Frankly, UA and AA have been doing this fairly openly since 2001 as someone above mentioned, if that's going to be considered fraud, then I'll go ahead and say the RTA is guilty of extortion.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: moo
Posted 2013-01-15 08:17:50 and read 3226 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 58):
I already said it all before: pretending to do business in a county in which it doesn't could be seen as fraud. Let's see what the court will say.

But they *do* do business - they have an office there. If the situation were reversed, and Sycamore was trying to tax UA based on that offices presence, no one would be raising an eyebrow...

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-01-15 08:18:49 and read 3218 times.

Quoting sancho99504 (Reply 59):
Its perfectly legal what they did. many companies are incorporated in Delaware to avoid taxes, y'et many of them don't even do business in Delaware.

Is it really so obvious? How many companies have been sued by some public office for being incorporated in Delaware? None that I know of. Hence, it must be legal. Yet, somebody has decided to sue UA on this. They may have a reason. I'm not a lawyer. Apparently you aren't either.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-01-15 08:21:48 and read 3210 times.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 60):
You're confusing ethical integrity with legality.

Maybe.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 60):
United followed the letter of law.

But not the spirit. And somebody is suing them for that. So I presume the situation is not so obvious as most people here seem to think it is.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-01-15 08:23:08 and read 3206 times.

Quoting moo (Reply 61):
But they *do* do business - they have an office there.

No, they don't do any business there, even if they have a sham office. Hence the fraud.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: moo
Posted 2013-01-15 08:30:53 and read 3190 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 63):
But not the spirit. And somebody is suing them for that

The only thing companies are required to follow is the law, not the spirit - the law says "you do X, you don't do Y", and those are your boundaries. Hard boundaries. Outside those boundaries you are in breach of the law.

The "spirit" of the law is very much the opposite - its very wishy washy, it changes on a whim, its subject to desire and its fleeting. You can't adhere to the "spirit" because its subject to much wider interpretation than the law itself, interpretation by anyone.

The strictness of the law is why we have the law - anything else is not law, its dictatorship, including the "spirit", because it requires someone to arbitrarily say what is right and what is wrong.

Tell me, UALWN, when was the last time you rang up your tax office and offered to pay more tax than you are legally required to by law?

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: sancho99504
Posted 2013-01-15 08:35:34 and read 3171 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 62):

I may be no lawyer, but I am a business owner who happily takes advantage of laws and "loopholes" to maximize profit. While it may be unethical, Oklahoma hasn't sued me or the hundred of other business owners incorporated in Delaware or Indiana. UA and soon to be AA are being to sued by the RTA who has a history of bein g poorly, if not fraudulently ran for years. Cook county has been busted for illegal practices, as well as the city of Chicago. Someone finally did to them what theyve been doing to residents for decades and they're butthurt. They have no merit for the lawsuit and it will be thrown out as ua and aa has lawyers to make sure they're following laws even if you think they're unethical.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: mcdu
Posted 2013-01-15 08:36:24 and read 3170 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 46):
Exactly. UA happily took Chicago's tax breaks and moved its HQ there, then tried to cheat the city out of its tax revenue. Why should they be surprised that they're being sued?

How is taking advantage of better tax rates cheating? If you have ever filed a tax return with a legal exemption did you consider that cheating? Warren Buffett paid a lower percentage of federal taxes than his secretary. They call him a genius. Why should UAL not try to find the best place to do business with the best tax rates? The company operates to provide a service and return to investors. I would hope that every company I invest in is doing their best to secure the best balance sheet possible. Throwing money away in taxes is not what I would consider smart business.

There are not too many people willing to stand in the same corner and defend government on tax issues. No matter what side of the aisle you reside in politics, the buffoons running our cities and nation don't deserve more money. They need to look at their own policies of spending abuse.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-01-15 08:37:17 and read 3173 times.

Quoting moo (Reply 65):
Tell me, UALWN, when was the last time you rang up your tax office and offered to pay more tax than you are legally required to by law?

Never. But I don't pretend to live in Andorra (even if I have an Andorran passport) to avoid paying taxes in Spain, where I live now. Other people have tried, and some have been successfully prosecuted.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-01-15 08:42:21 and read 3144 times.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 67):
Why should UAL not try to find the best place to do business with the best tax rates?

Except they do not do any bysiness in there.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 67):
Throwing money away in taxes is not what I would consider smart business.

Those taxes pay for public services that you use.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 67):
There are not too many people willing to stand in the same corner and defend government on tax issues. No matter what side of the aisle you reside in politics, the buffoons running our cities and nation don't deserve more money. They need to look at their own policies of spending abuse.

This is just the usual baseless anti-government rhetoric. Next time you drive in an interstate, ask yourself how it was payed. Every time you take your kids to the local HS, or to a public university, same thing. Every time you see a bumper sticker with "Support Our Troops" do wonder who pays for them. And on and on and on.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: tugger
Posted 2013-01-15 08:43:56 and read 3141 times.

These types of "bogus" (quotes because they are usually established and structured in such a way as to be legal yet everyone knows what they are) satellite offices are used by almost every corporation for tax purposes, not just these airlines or airlines in particular. Apple has them around the world, as do other companies, and they are used to move money to and through for tax reasons alone.

I don't like them per se, but doing what you can and following the rules to the letter for different regions, adds up to millions....sorry: billions in tax savings by companies each year. Can't fault them for that, provided they follow the relevant laws and don't violate them.

(And when I say "I don't like them" I mean I think taxes should be pretty simple and straightforward and everyone pays the taxes they are "supposed to" pay. However with a global economy, money goes wherever it is most efficient for it to go. I know I do what I can to minimize my tax obligation.)

Tugg

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-01-15 08:45:08 and read 3143 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 69):
This is just the usual baseless anti-government rhetoric. Next time you drive in an interstate, ask yourself how it was payed

Ask yourself that in IL 

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: moo
Posted 2013-01-15 08:45:30 and read 3141 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 68):
Other people have tried, and some have been successfully prosecuted.

But the difference is, the law says that this is legal - a receiving office acting as an invoice address, regardless of where the goods were bought or delivered to.

Many companies use a sales office in Nevada to avoid paying taxes on royalties - one small receiving office in Nevada, with one permanent employee, took $579Billion in revenue between 1998 and 2011 for Microsoft. Perfectly legally.

If you want anyone to do X, then you require them to do X by setting the law that way - "spirits" don't exist.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-01-15 08:47:27 and read 3133 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 71):
Ask yourself that in IL 

Do tell me the answer, please. Certainly, not the ridiculously low tolls.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: mcdu
Posted 2013-01-15 08:49:29 and read 3134 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 64):
No, they don't do any business there, even if they have a sham office. Hence the fraud.

Who are you to declare the office a "sham". Have you been this location? A good point was made by another poster about the taxes in Delaware. Also, airplanes are registered in Delaware for tax and protection from lawsuits due to the laws of that state.

Almost all airliners are leased from Delaware corporations. Much like the airlines and companies that have filed CH11 in certain courts to get the best deal possible for themselves.


From another site regarding Delaware and the benefits of doing business there with airplanes and corporations.

"All aircraft and yachts, under our administration are registered to individual owner trustee corporations. This is important because the Trust agreement which the beneficial owner of the aircraft or yacht will have to sign will include indemnities in the event that the trustee is sued. Where an individual or a Trust company which registers itself directly as the owner of the aircraft or yacht is sued then they will claim against you under its indemnity. Where the Trustee is a separate trustee corporation for your use only, then you get the added protection of being able to rely on its limited liability for your protection."

Lots of corporations (with international presences) are registered in Delaware. Lots of opportunity for corporate ownership.

From another "asset protection" service based in Delaware:

"What are the advantages of selling the stock and assets of the corporation or LLC in lieu of the sale of the aircraft?

"In most cases, the prospective owner will have to pay a sales tax on the purchase of the aircraft. With this in mind from the outset, not only will the prospective owner derive the advantages of ownership as a corporation, when the aircraft is subsequently put up for sale, the owner has the flexibility of selling the aircraft as an asset of the corporation or selling the entire corporation of which the aircraft is the only asset. The latter circumstance is accomplished by simply transferring the shares of stock in the corporation over to the new owners.

"This arrangement can be very attractive to the prospective purchaser because title to the aircraft has not changed hands since it is still registered to the corporation. Therefore, no sales tax may be assessable on the transfer, and, no re-registration costs are incurred.

"In fact, an additional savings occurs because the aircraft does not need to be registered with the FAA and avoids the hassle.

"Why should I select the state of Delaware to Incorporate and protect my personal assets?

* Delaware is recognized as having a favorable tax climate. Delaware has

No sales tax **
No personal property tax
No intangible property tax or
No stock transfer tax"

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-01-15 08:49:53 and read 3135 times.

Quoting moo (Reply 72):
But the difference is, the law says that this is legal

Them why is UA being sued? Are the lawyers so stupid?

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-01-15 08:56:04 and read 3118 times.

Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 2):
As someone who lives in Illinois, this type of going after every nickle and dime by local and state agencies is really getting old.

Oh the irony  Apparently nickle and diming is only acceptable when it's done by a private entity on regular tax paying citizens. Just because it's legal it doesn't mean it's ok, on both counts  

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: moo
Posted 2013-01-15 08:57:14 and read 3124 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 75):
Them why is UA being sued? Are the lawyers so stupid?

Because theres more happening here than a court case - you read this on A.Net, in a thread with 75 replies, its made the national news, its made the international news.

Public Relations. Trial through the media. Shame UA into "voluntarily correcting their ways" through criticising them in public - it worked in the UK with Starbucks, Amazon and a number of others just this very past month.

Public perception is a powerful thing...

This won't ever make it to court. Even if UA never back down, it won't ever make it to court.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2013-01-15 08:59:09 and read 3120 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 69):
This is just the usual baseless anti-government rhetoric. Next time you drive in an interstate, ask yourself how it was payed. Every time you take your kids to the local HS, or to a public university, same thing. Every time you see a bumper sticker with "Support Our Troops" do wonder who pays for them. And on and on and on.

How can you talk about government waste? You stated you lived in Spain... Not exactly a picture of government fiscal responsibility.

Just FYI, before you go pretending that highways are what is driving tax increases etc:

http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/fil...43/01-19-highwayspending_brief.pdf

Total spending on highways 146 Billion (2007), of that, only 40B was Federal. So 40 billion divided by the total 2007 budget of 2.8 Trillion means that highway spending was 1.4% of the federal budget. Defense is a much better argument, but tell me we really NEED this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...countries_by_military_expenditures

Spending more than the next 17 highest countries combined, over 5 times higher than the number 2 spender, China.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-01-15 09:00:57 and read 3117 times.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 74):

I already replied above: nobody sues the companies with HQ in Delaware. Hence, it must be OK. However, now UA (with HQ in Chicago, by the way) ,it is sued because of this ghost (is this better than sham?) office. So there may be a reason. OK?

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-01-15 09:07:04 and read 3108 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 73):

Do tell me the answer, please. Certainly, not the ridiculously low tolls.

Taxes in IL aren't going to interstates. IL is the poster child of ever increasing taxes going to ballooning deficits primarily due to entitlements.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-01-15 09:09:55 and read 3093 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 79):
So there may be a reason. OK?

Yes, but that doesn't mean that the reason has anything to do with the law.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-01-15 09:11:53 and read 3092 times.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 78):
How can you talk about government waste? You stated you lived in Spain... Not exactly a picture of government fiscal responsibility.

Do you know anything at all about the Spanish economy? Do you know that Spain's debt as a fraction of its GDP is now hovering around 80% while the US's is above 100%. No? I thought so.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 78):
Just FYI, before you go pretending that highways are what is driving tax increases etc:

Those were just examples. Like it or not, the government does quite a few thinks for the citizenry.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-01-15 09:15:16 and read 3078 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 80):
Taxes in IL aren't going to interstates. IL is the poster child of ever increasing taxes going to ballooning deficits primarily due to entitlements.

Those were just examples. As I said above, governments doe a lot of things for their citizens. Some of them are more efficient and honest than others. But to pretend that all governments are, by definition, useless or, worse, evil, is, well, weird.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 81):
Yes, but that doesn't mean that the reason has anything to do with the law.

Maybe not. Maybe I'm too naive.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: exFWAOONW
Posted 2013-01-15 11:28:29 and read 2969 times.

Quoting bohica (Reply 51):
Sounds to me like someone at the RTA didn't receive his bribe money.

   That just about sums it up. One schmuck didn't get his cut and he cried all the way to his lawyer's office.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 54):
By pretending to do business in a county in which it doesn't?

If someone has to be in the office and gets paid to be in that office, then they ARE doing business in that office.

Quoting sancho99504 (Reply 59):
I live in Oklahoma, yet my truck and trailer are registered in Indiana due to the lower costs of licensing and registration.

That's interesting. Almost every day I see semis that appear to be based here in Indiana with Tennessee plates.  

Quoting moo (Reply 61):
But they *do* do business - they have an office there


I agree. Lets' see if the court does, too. And not the court of public opinion, either.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 10):
Chicago really can't complain when they used tax breaks to lure the headquarters of the newly merged UA to downtown Chicago.

Ask the city of Indianapolis how well that worked out with UA's MOC-II.   

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: CalebWilliams
Posted 2013-01-15 11:46:34 and read 2938 times.

UALWN: Based on your own self-admitted ignorance. Basically anybody can sue anybody else in the US. That doesn't mean they have a case, legally. In similar cases, the company will calculate the cost of going to trial and try to settle for less than that, without admitting wrong doing.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 83):
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 81):
Yes, but that doesn't mean that the reason has anything to do with the law.

Maybe not. Maybe I'm too naive.

I can sue Barack Obama for being a bad president if I want. I can sue McDonald's because they didn't notify me that they coffee is too hot. I can sue my work because I don't like my boss. That doesn't mean the judge won't throw out the case or that I'd even win the case if it went to trial, but I can file the law suit.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-01-15 11:51:22 and read 2930 times.

Quoting CalebWilliams (Reply 85):
Basically anybody can sue anybody else in the US. That doesn't mean they have a case, legally.

Thanks, but I already knew that. I'm not a lawyer but I am a US citizen.

Quoting CalebWilliams (Reply 85):
can sue Barack Obama for being a bad president if I want.

But you are not a corporation. And you don't employ a bunch of layers. I'd presume that when they sue they see a chance of winning.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-01-15 11:59:42 and read 2906 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 86):
But you are not a corporation. And you don't employ a bunch of layers. I'd presume that when they sue they see a chance of winning.

Governmental entities lose lawsuits all the time. Unless you have a really warped view of government power, that should not be news to you.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: sancho99504
Posted 2013-01-15 12:15:19 and read 2890 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 79):

I'm incorporated in Delaware, I have just a PO Box, no HQ office, do no business in Delaware, but pay all business related taxes to Delaware, and its perfectly legal.

Quoting exFWAOONW (Reply 84):

FedEx has Indiana plates, based in Memphis, TN. UPs has Indiana plates, based in Atlanta, GA. Schneider is based out of green bay, wi. Swift is based out of phoenix, AZ. USA truck is based out of van buren, are. CR England is based out of salt lake city, ut. Knight is out of phoenix, AZ. Marten is out of mondovi, wi. All these companies are apportioned(registered) in Indiana. Most have a PO box for their business address in the state. Indiana, Tennessee, Connecticut, delaware and Ohio are the most trucking friendly states in the union to setup shop.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 69):

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: exFWAOONW
Posted 2013-01-15 12:44:39 and read 2832 times.

Quoting sancho99504 (Reply 88):
Most have a PO box for their business address in the state. Indiana, Tennessee, Connecticut, delaware and Ohio are the most trucking friendly states in the union to setup shop.

It wasn't always like that. I've seen many different plates on UPS and FEDex trucks. I was referring to other companies that "should" have been based in Indiana, but the plates said otherwise.

This is nothing new. Take a closer look at some of the cars in the next train you have to watch roll by. Usually up in one of the top corners is a sign saying" owned by trust..." even though the paint job on the side leads you to believe it is owned by the railroad with the giant logo. It even has a railroad reporting mark (similar to a registration or tail number on an airliner). Anyway, I don't want to take this too far off topic.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-01-15 12:57:49 and read 2804 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 87):
Governmental entities lose lawsuits all the time. Unless you have a really warped view of government power, that should not be news to you.

Of course. I'm not saying they will win. I'm saying if they sue, they must have a point, they must see a chance to win.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: jcwr56
Posted 2013-01-15 12:58:22 and read 2800 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 76):
Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 2):As someone who lives in Illinois, this type of going after every nickle and dime by local and state agencies is really getting old.Oh the irony Apparently nickle and diming is only acceptable when it's done by a private entity on regular tax paying citizens. Just because it's legal it doesn't mean it's ok, on both counts

I have a choice with a private entity, with taxing bodies..I don't.  

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: steex
Posted 2013-01-15 13:00:13 and read 2799 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 79):
I already replied above: nobody sues the companies with HQ in Delaware. Hence, it must be OK. However, now UA (with HQ in Chicago, by the way) ,it is sued because of this ghost (is this better than sham?) office. So there may be a reason. OK?

This isn't necessarily reasonable causation. While it's true that incorporating in Delaware to do business elsewhere is legal, the lack of suits dealing with it isn't explicit evidence of that fact. By that some logic, if someone commits a crime and isn't charged, he actually didn't do it. After all, if he had done something unlawful, he'd be charged, right?

You could look at the case against UA in the opposite light - loads of people are released from prison due to improper prosecution every year, and even more are brought to trial and rightly found not guilty. The presence of a suit against UA does not imply guilt, it just means the RTA thinks it has a case. The courts may disagree that it's a valid case or may find on behalf of UA.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-01-15 13:22:49 and read 2772 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 90):
I'm saying if they sue, they must have a point, they must see a chance to win.

People file lawsuits with no (or very small) chance of winning all the time.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: CalebWilliams
Posted 2013-01-15 13:32:43 and read 2764 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 90):

Nope, just a chance to settle out of court.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/08/business/08law.html?_r=0

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-01-15 14:09:11 and read 2731 times.

Quoting CalebWilliams (Reply 94):
Nope, just a chance to settle out of court.

But why would UA settle out of court if they think they aren't doing anything wrong and the case would be thrown out in court?

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: steex
Posted 2013-01-15 14:22:36 and read 2709 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 95):
But why would UA settle out of court if they think they aren't doing anything wrong and the case would be thrown out in court?

It's possible the settlement would be for an amount less than the fees associated with fighting the charge in court, even if they believe they would be victorious. There is also an element of risk management since there is always a non-zero (though usually small) chance that the court will not find in your favor even if you are in the right.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: CalebWilliams
Posted 2013-01-15 14:33:05 and read 2700 times.

Quoting steex (Reply 96):

Quoting UALWN (Reply 95):
But why would UA settle out of court if they think they aren't doing anything wrong and the case would be thrown out in court?

It's possible the settlement would be for an amount less than the fees associated with fighting the charge in court, even if they believe they would be victorious. There is also an element of risk management since there is always a non-zero (though usually small) chance that the court will not find in your favor even if you are in the right.

Exactly. Does it make sense? No.

From the above article:

"On average, getting it wrong cost plaintiffs at about $43,000; the total could be more because information on legal costs was not available in every case. For defendants, who were less often wrong about going to trial, the cost was much greater: $1.1 million."

As you can see, it's relatively cheap to sue and according this article it's 25x more expensive to defend the suit than it is to file it.

Also:

"Martin A. Asher, an economist at the University of Pennsylvania...'If you approach a class of students and say, I’ll either write you a check for $200, or we can flip a coin and I will pay you nothing or $500,' most students will take the $200 rather than risk getting nothing, Mr. Asher said."

It's cheaper to write the $200 check that it to spend the $1.1 mil and then possibly pay $500.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-01-15 14:39:02 and read 2687 times.

Quoting CalebWilliams (Reply 97):
It's cheaper to write the $200 check that it to spend the $1.1 mil and then possibly pay $500.

It's never going to cost $1.1 million to take a $500 case to trial. Sorry.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: BMI727
Posted 2013-01-15 14:44:07 and read 2673 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 52):
Yes. If I wave half or your debt to me, am I supposed to take it kindly if you cheat me out of the other half?

United isn't cheating anyone out of anything. They're simply not incurring the additional debt.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 60):
Whether that is ethical or not is another question,

Not a question worth considering.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 69):
Next time you drive in an interstate, ask yourself how it was payed.

Just not on the Skyway.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 75):
Are the lawyers so stupid?

Someone is. Whether or not they have passed the bar exam I'm not sure.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 79):
However, now UA (with HQ in Chicago, by the way) ,it is sued because of this ghost (is this better than sham?) office. So there may be a reason. OK?

I'm pretty sure that logic hasn't worked since the 18th century.

I can just picture the trial:
Prosecutor: The defendant is guilty of tax evasion.
Judge: What evidence do you have?
Prosecutor: We took them to court. We wouldn't put anybody on trial if they haven't done anything wrong, so obviously, they are guilty.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 80):
IL is the poster child of ever increasing taxes going to ballooning deficits primarily due to entitlements.

  

Quoting UALWN (Reply 95):
But why would UA settle out of court if they think they aren't doing anything wrong and the case would be thrown out in court?

Winning a case doesn't mean you can't lose money.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: KC135TopBoom
Posted 2013-01-15 16:49:07 and read 2602 times.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 39):
We can discuss ethics all we want,

The City of Chicago, Cook County, etc. have no ethics

Quoting UALWN (Reply 46):
UA happily took Chicago's tax breaks and moved its HQ there, then tried to cheat the city out of its tax revenue.

If they are following the state law, how are they cheating Chicago out of anything?

Quoting ripcordd (Reply 45):
Just move the HQ to sycamore

        

Quoting bohica (Reply 51):
Sounds to me like someone at the RTA didn't receive his bribe money.

        

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: CalebWilliams
Posted 2013-01-15 16:51:17 and read 2594 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 98):

Quoting CalebWilliams (Reply 97):
It's cheaper to write the $200 check that it to spend the $1.1 mil and then possibly pay $500.

It's never going to cost $1.1 million to take a $500 case to trial. Sorry.

That's what you call an analogy. But how much does it cost go on Judge Judy to recover $400 for a past due cell phone bill from your ex?

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-01-16 00:55:50 and read 2470 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 99):
I'm pretty sure that logic hasn't worked since the 18th century.

I can just picture the trial:
Prosecutor: The defendant is guilty of tax evasion.
Judge: What evidence do you have?
Prosecutor: We took them to court. We wouldn't put anybody on trial if they haven't done anything wrong, so obviously, they are guilty.

Really funny. I wrote

Quoting UALWN (Reply 79):
However, now UA (with HQ in Chicago, by the way) ,it is sued because of this ghost (is this better than sham?) office. So there may be a reason.

Note the "may". That's all I'm saying.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: nws2002
Posted 2013-01-16 04:48:32 and read 2428 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 46):
Exactly. UA happily took Chicago's tax breaks and moved its HQ there, then tried to cheat the city out of its tax revenue. Why should they be surprised that they're being sued?

As other's have pointed out, neither UA nor AA are cheating. They are following the law of the state of Illinois. I don't know about you, but I file my income taxes I look for every possible deduction and credit. I don't care about the spirit of the law and if it is legal I will take the tax reduction.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 75):
Them why is UA being sued? Are the lawyers so stupid?

I don't believe that UA did anything criminally wrong. Under RTA rules they may owe money, but under state of Illinois law they do not. If it goes to court a judge will decide which law/regulation should be followed here.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 86):
But you are not a corporation. And you don't employ a bunch of layers. I'd presume that when they sue they see a chance of winning.

They may or may not see a chance of winning. What they see is a chance of winning or receiving a settlement from UA to make this all go away.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 95):
But why would UA settle out of court if they think they aren't doing anything wrong and the case would be thrown out in court?

It costs a lot of money to fight a court case. I work for a local company that sued the US government over a contract dispute with a government agency. The case dragged on for so long that the local company filed for bankruptcy after spending millions on attorneys and related costs.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: exFWAOONW
Posted 2013-01-16 06:17:11 and read 2382 times.

RTA is rolling the dice. Friom their perspective:

we lose: nothing ventured, nothing gained, the attornies are on retainer so it won't cost us much anyway

UA settles out of court : WE WIN

UA loses: WE WIN BIG

Their odds are 2 out of 3 to get something. With those odds, who of us wouldn't take that chance?

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: EWRandMDW
Posted 2013-01-16 06:25:52 and read 2372 times.

Quoting planespotting (Reply 24):
Why shouldn't United pay what they deserve to pay because of the fuel they're using - if they want lower fuel taxes, then lobby the city of Chicago/RTA/the state of Illinois to give them an actual break, not just use a loophole.

I'm not saying United is breaking the law by doing what they're doing, but they don't really have a moral reason to not pay fuel taxes where they pump the gas.

Who decides what's "fair" in the way of taxes? Who decides where that tax money goes? I live in western Cook Cty near the Tri-State Tollway and I almost always buy my gas and other items in DuPage Cty, because its close by and the cost is usually less. Over the course of a year the savings add up. It is MY money, why shouldn't I get to keep it? The same can be said for UA and AA. They may not completely pull up stakes, but they might begin to shift ops elsewhere.

And as for a "moral reason", we're talking Cook Cty and the Chicago machine. Where does morality come into play with those politicians?

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: trex8
Posted 2013-01-16 06:42:53 and read 2358 times.

Unless UA can show to that Cook County jury that the office was anything but a sham front (which it seems to have been whether legal or otherwise), they will be taken to the cleaners by said jury. Too bad they probably won't be able to change the venue to Dekalb or some other more "normal" suburban county. They would be idiots to go to trial in Cook County. They will get zero sympathy from the average Cook county juror. They would be far better off coming to a settlement or risk much much more at the hands of a fickle cook county court packed with shall we say, lower socio economic and less educated types dependant on the government, who will have no sympathy with "fat cat corporations and 1% types" refusing to pay their "fair share".

Maybe they should just buy the oil refineries south of Chicago and get a better price like DL!

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: Flighty
Posted 2013-01-16 07:03:35 and read 2346 times.

Quoting trex8 (Reply 106):
They would be idiots to go to trial in Cook County.
UA and others are following the law here. Lawyers -- of all people -- should see that. If they don't like the way Illinois taxes, they should take over Illinois and rewrite its laws.

What Cook County or its inhabitants think about it doesn't matter.

[Edited 2013-01-16 07:04:53]

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: moo
Posted 2013-01-16 07:11:36 and read 2340 times.

Quoting trex8 (Reply 106):
Unless UA can show to that Cook County jury that the office was anything but a sham front (which it seems to have been whether legal or otherwise), they will be taken to the cleaners by said jury.

UA doesn't have to do anything of the sort - this is a civil trial, so the plaintiff will have to prove that UA owe them the money they wish to collect, which will be difficult for them to do.

The jury cannot simply return in favour of the plaintiff because they think UA should be paying more taxes, such a verdict would instantly be struck down.

Its worth noting from the original article that the plaintiff tried this last year against an oil company and it was thrown out of court.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: trex8
Posted 2013-01-16 17:25:26 and read 2240 times.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 107):
What Cook County or its inhabitants think about it doesn't matter.

Its cook county inhabitants who will sit on that jury , assuming UA want a jury trial.
Its Cook county government who can, if they choose, make life difficult for UA in many ways vis ORD plans. Will they do it and harm a cash cow, there are people running this town and county who live in a different universe to the one we live in!

Quoting moo (Reply 108):
The jury cannot simply return in favour of the plaintiff because they think UA should be paying more taxes, such a verdict would instantly be struck down.

You guys obviously have little experience of Cook county courts. I'm not a lawyer but my company has been in half a dozen civil cases in the last 20 years. The facts and merits of the case have little correlation with the likely verdict in Cook county which is why any defense attorney in the Chicago area as a first priority tries to get it thrown out of cook county on the basis it has no jurisdiction and taken up in a collar county court where common sense, the facts and rule of law is more likely than how much empathy the plaintiffs attorney can muster from the jury. Change of venue isn't going to happen as UA has its HQ office in cook county, heck the fact that if the CEO lives in cook county will be enough for the idiot judges to say cook county has an interest in it even when the crime may have been carried out in Dekalb! A higher court may well strike down such a crazy verdict but crazier things have happened in IL!

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: EWRandMDW
Posted 2013-01-17 04:28:02 and read 2145 times.

Quoting trex8 (Reply 109):
You guys obviously have little experience of Cook county courts. I'm not a lawyer but my company has been in half a dozen civil cases in the last 20 years. The facts and merits of the case have little correlation with the likely verdict in Cook county which is why any defense attorney in the Chicago area as a first priority tries to get it thrown out of cook county on the basis it has no jurisdiction and taken up in a collar county court where common sense, the facts and rule of law is more likely than how much empathy the plaintiffs attorney can muster from the jury.

As stated in a previous post, I live in western Cook Cty and I have had the joy of serving as a juror on civil cases, once at the courthouse on 26th and California and once in Markham. You're right about the shenanigans that go on but you may be surprised to know that in both cases a very healthy dose of common sense prevailed. In both cases a racially and ethnically diverse jury didn't fall for the sob stories and the prosecutors' slick talk. We didn't give the defense a pass either, but weighed all the evidence and came up with what we considered to be fair rulings.

Also, keep in mind the elections are over and the judges and other officers of the court voted into office don't have to worry about their jobs for a while, so perhaps the facts and law will stand a chance to shine!

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: KC135TopBoom
Posted 2013-01-17 07:46:35 and read 2099 times.

Quoting CalebWilliams (Reply 101):
Judge Judy

That is who should preside over a case like this.

Quoting nws2002 (Reply 103):
If it goes to court a judge will decide which law/regulation should be followed here.

Company or county regulations have no meaning when it comes to choosing between a law and a regulation.

Quoting moo (Reply 108):
Its worth noting from the original article that the plaintiff tried this last year against an oil company and it was thrown out of court.

As this case should.

Quoting trex8 (Reply 109):
there are people running this town and county who live in a different universe to the one we live in!

That is the understatement of 2013.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: United1
Posted 2013-01-17 07:58:23 and read 2086 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 64):
Quoting moo (Reply 61):
But they *do* do business - they have an office there.

No, they don't do any business there, even if they have a sham office. Hence the fraud.

...they do quite allot of business there. Every year UA, through a subsidiarity, makes fuel purchases at the office. From what I understand the office is staffed and all is quite on the up and up...it's simply a tax loophole that UA, AA and quite a few other business take advantage of.

...As for why UA is being sued. That's what virtually bankrupt agencies do when they are desperate for every last dollar of revenue that they can get. They are hoping that UA will simply settle or agree to some modification of their current tax incentives.

Topic: RE: Illinois Plans To Take UA To Court Over Fuel Taxes
Username: KC135TopBoom
Posted 2013-01-17 09:52:39 and read 2048 times.

Quoting United1 (Reply 112):
...As for why UA is being sued. That's what virtually bankrupt agencies do when they are desperate for every last dollar of revenue that they can get. They are hoping that UA will simply settle or agree to some modification of their current tax incentives.

Correct. The RTA has a long history of funding problems and mismanagement.


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