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Topic: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: r2rho
Posted 2013-01-17 05:41:29 and read 22269 times.

As previously rumored, and now confirmed:

http://www.airbus.com/newsevents/new...of-a321neo-with-new-cabin-options/

The current 220 seat limit is raised by the addition of an overwing exit and the SpaceFlex aft galley. EIS in 2017.

I assume this will only be achieved with slim seats and LCC-style 28-29" pitch. This is likely aimed at European holiday carriers currently using 757's such as Thomson, and other similar operations.
Note that this is not a stretch as misunderstood in previous discussions, but a new high-density config.

Previous rumor thread for reference purposes:
Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO (by lostsound Dec 14 2012 in Civil Aviation)

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: Aviaponcho
Posted 2013-01-17 05:52:19 and read 22123 times.

Thank you r2ho

So the A321NEO will be in a class of its own ? the 737MAX9 has 21 less seats in high density (10% less)

- High density short haul / charter will be interested
- Legacies 2 class low density will be happy with the deactived door2 opportunity... with should also raise the 2 class seat count
It's no small upgrade in my opinion

However that leaves a widening gap between the A320 and A321 in high density configuration (and a nice sweet spot for the 737-MAX8 : Z wall / optmised toilets ...)

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: Bthebest
Posted 2013-01-17 05:56:34 and read 22022 times.

Quoting r2rho (Thread starter):
This is likely aimed at European holiday carriers currently using 757's such as Thomson, and other similar operations.

Quite a good market there, clearly some serious effort gone into attracting these customers.

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 1):
However that leaves a widening gap between the A320 and A321 in high density configuration (and a nice sweet spot for the 737-MAX8 : Z wall / optmised toilets ...)

good point, although maybe with the economics of A321neo, a bigger aircraft with more flexibility might be favoured by some operators.

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: cv990coronado
Posted 2013-01-17 06:21:18 and read 21742 times.

Good news for Airbus. Will they issue free shoe horns to get everyone in their seats ?. I will give this one a miss, thank you. Where possible I never turn right it can get very dark, crowded and uncomfortable.

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-01-17 06:56:42 and read 21389 times.

Quoting r2rho (Thread starter):
The current 220 seat limit is raised by the addition of an overwing exit and the SpaceFlex aft galley. EIS in 2017.

Will the extra overwing exit be standard on the A321NEO? I suspect it will boost resale value more than it costs in maintenance...

Quoting Bthebest (Reply 2):
Quite a good market there, clearly some serious effort gone into attracting these customers.

Have any ordered the NEO? IIRC Thomson, but anyone else?

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 1):
However that leaves a widening gap between the A320 and A321 in high density configuration (and a nice sweet spot for the 737-MAX8 : Z wall / optmised toilets ...)

Size doesn't matter, it is cost per flight and there isn't that much of a difference between the -8MAX and A321NEO's cost per flight. So fly the extra seats and when they pay for themselves, enjoy!

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 1):
- Legacies 2 class low density will be happy with the deactived door2 opportunity... with should also raise the 2 class seat count

I missed that detail, thank you. It does present better economics for 2-class opperators with moderate pitch Y.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: KC135TopBoom
Posted 2013-01-17 07:31:10 and read 21055 times.

My guess is the range will take a big hit for the new A-321CATTLECAR. Is it going to have the same MTOW as the A-321NEO? If it does, that means it must carry LESS fuel, another hit to its range.

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: neutronstar73
Posted 2013-01-17 07:34:33 and read 21001 times.

I seriously doubt most of the enthusiasts on this site will ever want to be shoved into this thing. No thanks, Airbus, you can keep the flying sardine can.

One can only imagine how uncomfortable this aircraft will be.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 5):

My guess is the range will take a big hit for the new A-321CATTLECAR. Is it going to have the same MTOW as the A-321NEO? If it does, that means it must carry LESS fuel, another hit to its range.

Something's gotta give.

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: speedygonzales
Posted 2013-01-17 07:36:57 and read 20974 times.

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 1):
- Legacies 2 class low density will be happy with the deactived door2 opportunity... with should also raise the 2 class seat count

Does anyone know what the exit limit will be in this config? It should be greater than 189, since it has larger door capacity than a 737-800, unless there is limitations due to the distance between door 1 and the overwing exit.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 4):
Will the extra overwing exit be standard on the A321NEO? I suspect it will boost resale value more than it costs in maintenance...

I will probably be popular as it adds flexibility. With the overwing exit you can have up to 236 seats with all exits activated, 220 with overwing deactivated and 189-200 somewhere (I'm guessing) with door 2 deactivated. Without it you are stuck with one exit config.

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: Pacific
Posted 2013-01-17 07:41:11 and read 20920 times.

Funny how the aircraft is getting the flak, instead of the airline who chooses the actual configuration. Good on Airbus, hope air travel remains affordable as a result in this age of rising costs.

Anyone remember how an extra exit on the 737-900ER led to highly valuable sales to Lion Air? May Airbus have the same fortune.

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-01-17 07:47:24 and read 20869 times.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 5):
Is it going to have the same MTOW as the A-321NEO? If it does, that means it must carry LESS fuel, another hit to its range.

As noted in another A321 thread, the biggest range restriction is not what the aircraft can lift, but what the aircraft can carry. With its small efficient wings, fuel capacity is limited, even with the main centre tank.

Basic fuel tankage is 18,605 Kgs, which can be increased to 23,302 Kgs with two ACTs.

So with our present A321s, it is possible to load full fuel, and carry full passengers and still be 8000 Kgs below MTOW. Now our A321s carry 174 passengers, if you added another 6448 Kgs for the additional 62 passengers and baggage, you would still be roughly 1500 Kgs below MTOW.

The A321neo would be very similar, but with the added range of the more efficient engines and sharklets.

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: scbriml
Posted 2013-01-17 07:47:48 and read 20868 times.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 5):
My guess is the range will take a big hit for the new A-321CATTLECAR. Is it going to have the same MTOW as the A-321NEO? If it does, that means it must carry LESS fuel, another hit to its range.

I suspect the airlines that will buy it fully understand the concept of a payload/range curve.   

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 6):
One can only imagine how uncomfortable this aircraft will be.

No more uncomfortable than any "pack 'em in" airline flying today.

If, as I suspect, neither of you actually read the PR, the modifications present the airlines with a much more flexible cabin in both 2-class and all economy configurations. But hey, why miss an Airbus-bashing opportunity?

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: Aviaponcho
Posted 2013-01-17 07:52:38 and read 20797 times.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 5):

Hello

High density "real life" A321CEO should be able to fill more than 90% of wing and center tank with a 22.4 t payload (236 PAX)
NEO should be the same (or better in case of MTOw increase)
We can assume 2300-2500 Nm in the real life (and I think I take conservative estimates)

Is it that bad ?

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: neutronstar73
Posted 2013-01-17 07:55:32 and read 20772 times.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 10):
No more uncomfortable than any "pack 'em in" airline flying today.

If, as I suspect, neither of you actually read the PR, the modifications present the airlines with a much more flexible cabin in both 2-class and all economy configurations. But hey, why miss an Airbus-bashing opportunity?

Errmm..no. How about taking a breath, and have a seat before you reflexively defend "anything that remotely appears to bash Airbus"?

And, unfortunately, I did read the release, and I read the original configuration on AW&ST a couple of months ago. And I don't care what airplane manufacturer builds a sardine can; Boeing or Airbus, I will avoid any airline that uses that high-density, utterly uncomfortable configuration. So don't make an ass our yourself jumping to conclusions. Last I checked, this was a thread on the A321; I didn't see any thread or mention of some ridiculous high-density 737 sardine can.

But please, continue to imagine this as an Airbus bashing thread when it wasn't in the first place.

.

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: flyglobal
Posted 2013-01-17 07:58:26 and read 20717 times.

The aditional emergency exits are also necessary to opt for the A321 /236 planes also for a lower density configuration with alarger premium class in the front and still enough Y pax behind.

In this case the over wing exits are used and the front side emergency exits can be closed and used for premium class cabins accoring to airbus.

Regards
Flyglobal

[Edited 2013-01-17 08:01:14]

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: JerseyFlyer
Posted 2013-01-17 08:07:13 and read 20618 times.

This is not only a high density solution.

For low density, high J, configurations, the new over wing exits allow the door 2 exits just forward of the wing to be deactivated, for more seats to be fitted.

Quote: "In conjunction with the additional over-wing exit door, a second new option is available whereby the forward exit is de-activated. This creates a seamless, undivided forward cabin allowing additional seats and even more flexibility in multi-class seat arrangements. This option will be of particular use in longer range markets where high comfort standards are needed in Premium class."

As a result, the 321neo will address both 757 replacement markets - short haul "cattle class" leisure with 236 seats, and long haul low density including J seats.

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: Aviaponcho
Posted 2013-01-17 08:12:16 and read 20549 times.

Quoting Pacific (Reply 8):
Anyone remember how an extra exit on the 737-900ER led to highly valuable sales to Lion Air? May Airbus have the same fortune.

Yes I think it's almost the same move (spaceflex, new exists), just missing the MTOW increase, unless you consider that going NEO is almost the same

So airbus almost launched an A321NEO-ER !

Waiting for the MTOW increase now (for PAS maybe ?)

Quoting longhauler (Reply 9):
As noted in another A321 thread, the biggest range restriction is not what the aircraft can lift, but what the aircraft can carry. With its small efficient wings, fuel capacity is limited, even with the main centre tank.

Basic fuel tankage is 18,605 Kgs, which can be increased to 23,302 Kgs with two ACTs.

So with our present A321s, it is possible to load full fuel, and carry full passengers and still be 8000 Kgs below MTOW. Now our A321s carry 174 passengers, if you added another 6448 Kgs for the additional 62 passengers and baggage, you would still be roughly 1500 Kgs below MTOW.

The A321neo would be very similar, but with the added range of the more efficient engines and sharklets.

Might not forget the weight of the seat also...
Your A321 seems lighter than the one I found on the net (THY and RJ )

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: Phen
Posted 2013-01-17 08:20:15 and read 20474 times.

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Reply 14):
For low density, high J, configurations, the new over wing exits allow the door 2 exits just forward of the wing to be deactivated, for more seats to be fitted.

I assume this means that the fuselage is fabricated with no door at all in the Door 2 position and with regular cabin windows instead, or is the door frame simply plugged with a fixed fuselage panel?

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-01-17 08:34:00 and read 20384 times.

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 15):
Might not forget the weight of the seat also...
Your A321 seems lighter than the one I found on the net (THY and RJ )

I think it would be a tough one to forecast. I was only using our present aircraft, and our present weights, for a rough guideline.

As you note, there are a lot of other factors to consider, among them being the 62 additional seats. But also, we would be removing the 20 heavy J class seats, with their powered controls, etc. Also, the forward galley on our A321s is huge ... able to serve 20 J passengers an elaborate J service, twice. I keep thinking of all the china, crystal, linen and silverware that would be unnecessary and not carried.

But until you work the numbers, as I am sure Airbus and potential Customers have, you wouldn't know for sure.

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: art
Posted 2013-01-17 08:35:04 and read 20376 times.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 5):
My guess is the range will take a big hit for the new A-321CATTLECAR. Is it going to have the same MTOW as the A-321NEO? If it does, that means it must carry LESS fuel, another hit to its range.

There are masses of short range holiday routes in Europe so range is not an issue for many carriers.

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: KC135TopBoom
Posted 2013-01-17 08:40:00 and read 20325 times.

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 11):
We can assume 2300-2500 Nm in the real life (and I think I take conservative estimates)

Is it that bad ?

Depends on where the airplane needs to fly. For US TRANSCON, it is bad. For shorter routes in the EU, it works perfectly. I can see this being an airplane custom built for FR.

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-01-17 08:57:50 and read 20157 times.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 5):
My guess is the range will take a big hit for the new A-321CATTLECAR. Is it going to have the same MTOW as the A-321NEO? If it does, that means it must carry LESS fuel, another hit to its range.

A realistic DOW for a 230 seat A321neo is around 53t, that includes weight for neo mods, extra seats etc. Add catering and 230 pax which brings you some 24t, now you are at 77t. MTOW is 93.5t so you have some 16.5t fuel, at 2.6t average fuel consumption the endurance will be 6.3 hours, that is including your reserves.

Now I don't want to sit in a SA more then 5 hours and I don't think others would at 230 seats below 30'' pitch. Most holiday destinations would be found within that endurance me thinks.

[Edited 2013-01-17 09:05:23]

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: Aesma
Posted 2013-01-17 09:13:34 and read 20006 times.

Quoting Pacific (Reply 8):
Anyone remember how an extra exit on the 737-900ER led to highly valuable sales to Lion Air? May Airbus have the same fortune.

Airbus did it before when they added an overwing exit to the A319 for Easyjet, who dumped the 737 for it in return.

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: MACDADDY
Posted 2013-01-17 09:13:39 and read 20005 times.

It seems many people on here are not familiar with the "old 757's in Euro-Charter Airlines. The basic config on a B757 was 235Y, and latterly 229Y. People like Jet2 and Thomson could be interested in such a plane, flying at 28" pitch, full loads from the North of Europe to The Med. However that model is outdated and being fast replaced / overtaken by LCCs. So it remins to be seen if anyone "bites" in this market.

MAC

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: wingnutmn
Posted 2013-01-17 09:52:05 and read 19726 times.

I know that everyone keeps saying Euro charter airlines, but this sounds like a perfect airplane for Spirit too. It doesn't need the range, but the capacity. This A321Neo is perfect for FLL to anywhere in the Carrabbean. It also could fly from FLL to most cities in their system. Trans-cons may not happen, but how many of those flights do they currently fly? I would not be shocked to see an announcement that NK is a launch for this new varriant of the A321.

Wingnut

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-01-17 12:14:45 and read 18748 times.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 10):
the modifications present the airlines with a much more flexible cabin in both 2-class and all economy configurations.

That is the most exciting detail. The flexibility as noted by:

Quoting speedygonzales (Reply 7):
I will probably be popular as it adds flexibility. With the overwing exit you can have up to 236 seats with all exits activated, 220 with overwing deactivated and 189-200 somewhere (I'm guessing) with door 2 deactivated. Without it you are stuck with one exit config.

Thank you for the explination.

Quoting Pacific (Reply 8):
Anyone remember how an extra exit on the 737-900ER led to highly valuable sales to Lion Air? May Airbus have the same fortune.

   This will sell planes.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 10):
I suspect the airlines that will buy it fully understand the concept of a payload/range curve.

Na, we armchair CEOs no better.

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 12):
And I don't care what airplane manufacturer builds a sardine can; Boeing or Airbus, I will avoid any airline that uses that high-density, utterly uncomfortable configuration.

Then you are not a customer of the charter airlines. Every mature market will eventually break down into at least 5-identifiable sub-markets. For airlines, we have charter/first class, business class, Y+, coach (with legroom), and ULCC coach and then variations with and without luggage. This change means that a standard 2-class A321 will have a better layout and then a charter/ULCC configuration is an option. Why not celebrate Airbus selling more planes instead of bashing how you don't like the market?

Are you against the 757 because so many are used by charters? Or the infamous 8-across narrow pitch 767s?
Boeing 767 - Charter Configuration (by CTFLYER May 8 2001 in Civil Aviation)

Every can use seatguru, so there shouldn't be any surprises.

Quoting wingnutmn (Reply 23):
but this sounds like a perfect airplane for Spirit too.

   I think B6 will benefit from the flexibility too.

Quoting Phen (Reply 16):
or is the door frame simply plugged with a fixed fuselage panel?

There are standard door plugs with an interior panel to hide the door opening from the passengers (so they don't try to use it in an emergency).

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: astuteman
Posted 2013-01-17 12:36:40 and read 18973 times.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 5):
My guess is the range will take a big hit for the new A-321CATTLECAR. Is it going to have the same MTOW as the A-321NEO? If it does, that means it must carry LESS fuel, another hit to its range.

Very little. As others have said, the A321 is predominantly fuel volume limited

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 6):
I seriously doubt most of the enthusiasts on this site will ever want to be shoved into this thing. No thanks, Airbus, you can keep the flying sardine can.

The 215 seat arrangement on the 737-900ER is 28" pitch. *shrug*

Quoting longhauler (Reply 9):
So with our present A321s, it is possible to load full fuel, and carry full passengers and still be 8000 Kgs below MTOW. Now our A321s carry 174 passengers, if you added another 6448 Kgs for the additional 62 passengers and baggage, you would still be roughly 1500 Kgs below MTOW.

  

Quoting scbriml (Reply 10):
I suspect the airlines that will buy it fully understand the concept of a payload/range curve

But they haven't flown tankers

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 12):
I didn't see any thread or mention of some ridiculous high-density 737 sardine can.

By definition, the 215 seat arrangement for the 737-900ER in Boeing's own ACAP document is at least as ridiculous

Rgds

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: Burkhard
Posted 2013-01-17 13:02:32 and read 18267 times.

I always wondered why Airbus did not try this. This 236 A321 will be the same density as 186 seater B737-800 or 180 seater A320. If you fly in such planes on a trip of 60-180 minutes is your choice, of course. Frankfurt-Palma as example is 100 minutes, and this is the ideal plane for that mission.

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: EPA001
Posted 2013-01-17 13:10:05 and read 18356 times.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 25):
The 215 seat arrangement on the 737-900ER is 28" pitch. *shrug*

Don't let facts spoil an incorrect statement here on A-net.      .

Quoting astuteman (Reply 25):
By definition, the 215 seat arrangement for the 737-900ER in Boeing's own ACAP document is at least as ridiculous

It is, only if it is really ridiculous.  

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: airboe
Posted 2013-01-17 13:19:32 and read 18084 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 20):

Now I don't want to sit in a SA more then 5 hours and I don't think others would at 230 seats below 30'' pitch. Most holiday destinations would be found within that endurance me thinks


You are Rights Ferpe, from ex. Denmark to the Canaria Islands is aprox. 5 hours

Kr

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: neutronstar73
Posted 2013-01-17 14:06:39 and read 17047 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 24):
Are you against the 757 because so many are used by charters? Or the infamous 8-across narrow pitch 767s?
Quoting astuteman (Reply 25):
The 215 seat arrangement on the 737-900ER is 28" pitch. *shrug
Quoting EPA001 (Reply 27):
Don't let facts spoil an incorrect statement here on A-net

Reading comprehension is REALLY HARD HERE.

Ahem: from my post above: "And I don't care what airplane manufacturer builds a sardine can; Boeing or Airbus, I will avoid any airline that uses that high-density, utterly uncomfortable configuration."

A or B. If it is high density, I will do my best to avoid it. Just like that World Airways MD-11 they chartered for us to get to Afghanistan...atrocious. Unfortunately, I couldn't avoid or choose a different seating configuration (for obvious reasons)

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 24):
Then you are not a customer of the charter airlines.

You are right. I'm not.

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: Boeing74741R
Posted 2013-01-17 14:39:35 and read 16360 times.

Quoting MACDADDY (Reply 22):

It seems many people on here are not familiar with the "old 757's in Euro-Charter Airlines. The basic config on a B757 was 235Y, and latterly 229Y. People like Jet2 and Thomson could be interested in such a plane, flying at 28" pitch, full loads from the North of Europe to The Med. However that model is outdated and being fast replaced / overtaken by LCCs. So it remins to be seen if anyone "bites" in this market.

MAC

Don't forget Thomas Cook and Monarch, the former with a decent size 757 fleet (including aircraft from the days of Flying Colours!) and the latter with a large A321ceo fleet. Although you're right in saying that the old "package holiday" market with chartered planes of 200+ passengers is in decline, there are flights to these destinations that could still load 200+ passengers in the height of summer and Monarch don't exclusively use their A321s on holiday routes.

A major issue for some time is that there has been no true 757 replacement. The 739ER and A321ceo are the closest aircraft to that, but with the announcement from Airbus for a 236-seat A321neo option, I think for those airlines still using 757s on the European short-haul holiday routes, this is the aircraft that can finally replace 757s with and avoid taking a hit on capacity.

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: Planemaker
Posted 2013-01-17 15:13:15 and read 15767 times.

Quoting Pacific (Reply 8):
Funny how the aircraft is getting the flak, instead of the airline who chooses the actual configuration.

  

Quote:
Airbus is offering airlines brand new options for configuring the generous floor space offered by the A321neo. These allow more flexibility and thus increase the number of seats at the same comfort standard.

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: voodoo
Posted 2013-01-17 16:23:34 and read 14756 times.

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 15):
Waiting for the MTOW increase now (for PAS maybe ?)

Would they then be starting to think of resurrecting a bogie main gear along the lines of the original A320s delivered to Indian Airlines way back when?

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: Wingtips56
Posted 2013-01-17 18:15:27 and read 13409 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 4):
Will the extra overwing exit be standard on the A321NEO? I suspect it will boost resale value more than it costs in maintenance...

I don't see airlines ordering these based on resale value. It should be totally based on their own operational expectation. So I don't envision an airline adding optional doors/exits they are not required to have or intend to use, as doors/exits add extra weight with the mechanics of the device itself and the weight of the extra framing and mechanisms, compared to normal cabin frames and skin. Look at the little R1 service doors on a DC9/MD80/MD90 ... they were made small to meet requirements but minimize the weight. Paneling over an unnecessary door just adds more weight.

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-01-17 18:45:38 and read 13079 times.

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 29):

A or B. If it is high density, I will do my best to avoid it. Just like that World Airways MD-11 they chartered for us to get to Afghanistan...atrocious. Unfortunately, I couldn't avoid or choose a different seating configuration (for obvious reasons)

And I have a feeling that pretty soon you won't have much of a choice above 30 inches in short haul flying as more and more airlines deploy more Y+ seats as an alternative to the so called sardine can class.

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-01-17 20:40:22 and read 12003 times.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 27):
Quoting astuteman (Reply 25):
The 215 seat arrangement on the 737-900ER is 28" pitch. *shrug*

Don't let facts spoil an incorrect statement here on A-net.

But then again, said arguments are fun.      
Quoting EPA001 (Reply 27):
Quoting astuteman (Reply 25):
By definition, the 215 seat arrangement for the 737-900ER in Boeing's own ACAP document is at least as ridiculous

It is, only if it is really ridiculous.

I prefer ludicrous.  
Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 29):
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 24):
Then you are not a customer of the charter airlines.

You are right. I'm not.

Then why worry? They're already there and have a market. Airbus has made an offering that improves comfort for 2-class airlines but allowing better seat layouts by plugging a door or to displace those 757s that were in charter operation. Don't worry about it. I avoid a number of airlines due to my own preferences. The difference is I see the marketability of this configuration and therefor will cheer it on.

Might I fly in such a configuration? Maybe. Money is tight for me right now and to fly with my two daughters who need nothing more than a minuscule pitch (oldest isn't even yet 4 feet tall), I would be willing to be packed in for the right savings. Would I prefer more room? Sure. But I'm glad when there is that cost/benefit decision to be made.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-17 20:53:44 and read 11896 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 35):
I avoid a number of airlines due to my own preferences.

Oh, I'm such a whore about airlines and aircraft - I'll fly anyone. And have flown some quite unusual ones. LOL.

I'll fly on these, see what they're like.

mariner

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: faro
Posted 2013-01-18 02:35:51 and read 9138 times.

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 1):
So the A321NEO will be in a class of its own ? the 737MAX9 has 21 less seats in high density (10% less)

Very interesting; to what extent would the 236-seat A321NEO impair the 737MAX9's business model? Would it be flagrant or subtle? Advantage with LCC/charter operators or with all relevant markets?


Faro

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: parapente
Posted 2013-01-18 02:45:16 and read 8552 times.

Re Above.

Then why worry? They're already there and have a market. Airbus has made an offering that improves comfort for 2-class airlines but allowing better seat layouts by plugging a door or to displace those 757s that were in charter operation. Don't worry about it. I avoid a number of airlines due to my own preferences. The difference is I see the marketability of this configuration and therefor will cheer it on.

Might I fly in such a configuration? Maybe. Money is tight for me right now and to fly with my two daughters who need nothing more than a minuscule pitch (oldest isn't even yet 4 feet tall), I would be willing to be packed in for the right savings. Would I prefer more room? Sure. But I'm glad when there is that cost/benefit decision to be made.

Lightsaber

I have just come back from a skiing holiday with Wife and 2 kids.Thompson stretched 757 with BW's. High densiet seating with new slim seats (well thats how it looked to me).

London to Barcelona. Short flight. I am tallest 5'11". No problem what so ever. In fact perfectly comfortable. Might be different if I was going tran atlantic. I once went "cheap" to New Zealand on a 767 that was high density (and 3 stops) now that did become hellish due the massive amount of time sitting down. But for 2-3 hours it is fine.

This aircraft is surely just a replacement for 757's no? God knows what the fuel savings are going to be relative to the 757 with it's old cropped fan RB211 compared to a NEO with Geared fan. I am no expert but I would have thought it would be massive! (Anyone have a guess on comparitive SFC?)

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: SKAirbus
Posted 2013-01-18 03:52:18 and read 7483 times.

Gosh you're all acting like this will be the only A321 config available! The standard A321 NEO will still be available .. this is just a variant!

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: AAMDanny
Posted 2013-01-18 05:04:04 and read 6733 times.

I would be interested to see the seat map/cabin config and see the location and sizes of galleys, lavs and other cabin fixtures

Having worked on 220Y config A321's in the past as Crew I would be really interested so see Airbus' plan to fit Y236 in the A321 fuselage.

I can imagine Galley 4 becoming a half galley anda LAV being relocated AFT of the R4/L4 door station.

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: CRJ900
Posted 2013-01-18 05:26:49 and read 6401 times.

Quoting AAMDanny (Reply 40):
I would be interested to see the seat map/cabin config and see the location and sizes of galleys, lavs and other cabin fixtures

Having worked on 220Y config A321's in the past as Crew I would be really interested so see Airbus' plan to fit Y236 in the A321 fuselage.

I can imagine Galley 4 becoming a half galley anda LAV being relocated AFT of the R4/L4 door station.

Agree! A full-size aft galley can be cramped enough on the A32x and B737 when 2-3 FAs are setting up their carts. With a lav back there too and people waiting in line it is damn annoying. We have one aircraft in our fleet with this config and most of us find it bothersome. You also realise that pax crap like there is no tomorrow when they fly... must be the cabin pressure (or the German sausages  )

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-01-18 07:48:23 and read 5931 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 35):
Might I fly in such a configuration? Maybe. Money is tight for me right now and to fly with my two daughters who need nothing more than a minuscule pitch (oldest isn't even yet 4 feet tall), I would be willing to be packed in for the right savings. Would I prefer more room? Sure. But I'm glad when there is that cost/benefit decision to be made.

Bingo. Most people buy tickets based on price not seat pitch. That's why I think that in the near future all short haul flying will be 30" or less. Last year I flew to LIS with SATA on their A310's. Seat pitch is 18" I think. I'm 5'11" and had no problem with it. It saved me $200/pp on the ticket which was well worth it. I would have no problem flying a short haul segment with the same 18" pitch.

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: brons2
Posted 2013-01-18 08:54:08 and read 5734 times.

Good on Airbus for having the flexibility to build this variant. Should make good sales in the EU holiday market.

I have to join in with those who say they will not fly any planes in this sort of config no matter if they are made by A or B. I have no interest in 28" seat pitch, nor 2-4-2 767's or 3-3-3 A330's. I have flown on a 3-3-3 A310 before and wow 16.5" seat width!! Thankfully I got an exit row.

I'm 6'7", 201cm tall. I really don't think I could even sit down at 28" seat pitch. I don't know you EU citizens do it. I guess the winter weather in the UK is just really that dreary.

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: EuroWings
Posted 2013-01-18 09:44:45 and read 5570 times.

Quoting MACDADDY (Reply 22):
It seems many people on here are not familiar with the "old 757's in Euro-Charter Airlines. The basic config on a B757 was 235Y, and latterly 229Y. People like Jet2 and Thomson could be interested in such a plane, flying at 28" pitch, full loads from the North of Europe to The Med. However that model is outdated and being fast replaced / overtaken by LCCs. So it remins to be seen if anyone "bites" in this market.

The UK charters have been moving towards the LCC business model anyway. Jet2 was actually founded as a traditional 'Euro-LCC' (albeit one with older aircraft and other activities such as cargo), which has decided to focus on holiday traffic in recent years. It has been very successful doing this and has been able to compete with relative ease against EZY and FR out of several regional UK airports.

Monarch is now focusing on short-haul scheduled services as its primary source of revenue. They operate a sizable fleet of A321s and are retiring their reminaing 752s and A300s within the next few years. Their scheduled services also go head-to-head against EZY on many leisure routes out of LGW and MAN.

I could also see Thomson (as well as the TUI group) and Thomas Cook (as well as Condor and TCX Scandinavia/Belgium) interested, the UK variants are essentially the only true UK-based "leisure charter airlines" left. However, they both have a large flight-only offering, which can be competitive against the LCCs.

[Edited 2013-01-18 09:47:03]

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: Planemaker
Posted 2013-01-18 10:20:34 and read 5446 times.

For reference, here are a few existing layouts...

AC




SWISS



BA




Thomson

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-01-18 12:16:22 and read 5159 times.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 25):
The 215 seat arrangement on the 737-900ER is 28" pitch. *shrug*

With the current lightweight, thin-back seats, 28" is comparable in terms of effective passenger space to 30" with older seats.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 42):
Last year I flew to LIS with SATA on their A310's. Seat pitch is 18" I think.

18" seat pitch is not physically possible.

[Edited 2013-01-18 12:16:53]

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: r2rho
Posted 2013-01-18 13:14:55 and read 4980 times.

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 1):
- Legacies 2 class low density will be happy with the deactived door2 opportunity... with should also raise the 2 class seat count

Thanks, I missed that on my initial post. They are therefore addressing both the high-density charter market as well as the premium-heavy, giving more cabin configuration flexibility to everyone = more sales. I have said in other threads that the A321 stands to gain the most from "NEO" improvements, and here we have another example.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 4):

Will the extra overwing exit be standard on the A321NEO? I suspect it will boost resale value more than it costs in maintenance...

According to press releas, both (overwing and deactivated door2) will be an option.

Quoting flyglobal (Reply 13):
In this case the over wing exits are used and the front side emergency exits can be closed and used for premium class cabins accoring to airbus.

This suggestion may even have come from AA with their premium-heavy A321 transcontinental...  
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 5):
My guess is the range will take a big hit

Range is not a huge concern to the holiday carriers flying between Northern Europe and the Mediterranean, the A321NEO will do it fine even in this config. Some US sun&beach routes etc could also be a candidate market.

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 15):
Waiting for the MTOW increase now

The A321 is vuel volume limited, so a MTOW increase won't help I'm afraid.   

Quoting AAMDanny (Reply 40):

Having worked on 220Y config A321's in the past as Crew I would be really interested so see Airbus' plan to fit Y236 in the A321 fuselage.

If Airbus says it, they'll fit   Turn-around times will be horrible, but charter carriers don't mind that so much.

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 45):
For reference, here are a few existing layouts...

Thank you. It's a good selection of how different airlines configure their A321's, and useful for the discussion.

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-01-18 13:33:20 and read 4917 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 36):
Oh, I'm such a whore about airlines and aircraft - I'll fly anyone. And have flown some quite unusual ones. LOL.

Your attitude is very healthy! However, for flights of more than 3 hours, I start to become picky.  
Quoting parapente (Reply 38):
London to Barcelona. Short flight. I am tallest 5'11". No problem what so ever. In fact perfectly comfortable.

That sounds like a perfect mission for a high density configuration. Why pay for more room on that short a flight.

Quoting parapente (Reply 38):
God knows what the fuel savings are going to be relative to the 757 with it's old cropped fan RB211 compared to a NEO with Geared fan.

Per this link, a mere 17% per passenger:
http://beatofhawaii.com/what-hawaiia...nes-huge-plane-order-means-to-you/

However, there is a substantial maintenance savings with the A321NEO vs. the 757.

Here is an older ICAO document based on 2000 fuel prices:
http://legacy.icao.int/icao/en/ro/allpirg/allpirg4/wp28app.pdf

That has a mere4 $162/hour lower cost for the A321. The neo should have about a 3% to 5% lower cost per flight hour than the A321, so the cost savings is about 10%+ per passenger.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: astuteman
Posted 2013-01-18 13:33:46 and read 4914 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 46):
With the current lightweight, thin-back seats, 28" is comparable in terms of effective passenger space to 30" with older seats.

Unless these seats are restricted to the 737-900ER only, it wouldn't seem to me to alter the comparison with the A321....

Rgds

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: Aviaponcho
Posted 2013-01-18 13:34:24 and read 4904 times.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 47):
The A321 is vuel volume limited, so a MTOW increase won't help I'm afraid.

At 236 PAX it is not fuel volume limited I think ... if you can still put 1 or 2 ACT underbelly

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: lucce
Posted 2013-01-18 13:47:12 and read 4865 times.

Quoting AAMDanny (Reply 40):

I would be interested to see the seat map/cabin config and see the location and sizes of galleys, lavs and other cabin fixtures

Here's a photo of the spaceflex galley. Doesn't look too user friendly
http://fly-news.es/aviones/aviones-c...el-a321neo/attachment/spaceflex01/
http://www.noticiaslatamsales.com/en...r-for-A320-Space-Flex-cabin-option

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: CRJ900
Posted 2013-01-19 01:28:03 and read 4185 times.

Quoting lucce (Reply 51):
Here's a photo of the spaceflex galley. Doesn't look too user friendly
http://fly-news.es/aviones/aviones-c...el-a321neo/attachment/spaceflex01/
http://www.noticiaslatamsales.com/en...ption

Hey, they have been very creative here, makes it look like the aft section of a widebody. And TAM and LAN have ordered it alredy?

Topic: RE: 236-Seat High-Density A321NEO Launched
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-01-19 05:53:11 and read 3789 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 46):
Quoting airbazar (Reply 42):
Last year I flew to LIS with SATA on their A310's. Seat pitch is 18" I think.

18" seat pitch is not physically possible.

Oops, good catch. I meant to say 28" althought I can't find official confirmation. SeatGuru has is at 32". There's no way it's 32". Or maybe the pitch is 32" but because of the old style bulky seats it feels a lot more cramped. Either way I would have no problem flying TATL in such a tight space if it saves me $200 per ticket.


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