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Topic: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: ei737ng
Posted 2012-12-24 13:16:28 and read 22098 times.

Just wondering why EI purchased the 747 considering Ireland's population size how did the fleet planners ever hope to fill them? A case of fleet misplanners?

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: tonystan
Posted 2012-12-24 13:31:39 and read 22028 times.

Like most things at the time you will discover that the 747 purchase was driven by politics and vanity. It was not an aircraft EI needed nor could they ever operate it efficiently. The aircraft spent much of their time farmed away on contract to other carriers.

The A330 basically saved Aer Lingus in my opinion!

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: Airportugal310
Posted 2012-12-24 13:38:51 and read 21953 times.

Quoting tonystan (Reply 1):
Like most things at the time you will discover that the 747 purchase was driven by politics and vanity.

Yup. The "everyone else has it so I should, too" mentality.

But, have no fear, they weren't the only ones. History is littered with others who did the same...TP comes to mind with their 747-200's.

Did EI's 747's fly to BOS at all?

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-12-24 13:40:11 and read 21931 times.

Quoting tonystan (Reply 1):
The aircraft spent much of their time farmed away on contract to other carriers.

LAN Chile was one carrier that leased the 747 from EI.

EI-BED at SCL:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Luis Calvo Fly-News

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: kaitak
Posted 2012-12-24 14:57:46 and read 21598 times.

Quoting tonystan (Reply 1):
The aircraft spent much of their time farmed away on contract to other carriers.

They certainly spent quite a lot of their time with other carriers; indeed, one of their managers responsible for fleet leasing was a gentleman by the name of Tony Ryan, who went on to lead GPA. No one ever heard from him again!  
Quoting tonystan (Reply 1):
The A330 basically saved Aer Lingus in my opinion!

In fairness, the A330 was - and indeed remains - a superb aircraft for Aer Lingus.

Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 2):
Did EI's 747's fly to BOS at all?

Absolutely, right up until it retired; indeed, it also operated to ORD via BOS for a while (I did that as a pax, DUB-SNN-BOS-ORD ... wow, that was a trip and a half!)

Joking apart, the 747 did serve EI quite well; ok, at the outset, everyone got them because it was the optimism of the 1960s and fuel was cheap. Almost as soon as they got them, the world economy was going south and then there was the fuel crisis of the '70s and of course, the troubles in Northern Ireland and for a long time, EI was only operating one of them. That said, by the late '70s, EI had acquired a third aircraft - LH's third -100, which became EI-BED - and they were operating reasonably successfully with them, never VERY profitably, but certainly lifting quite a good number of pax. One of the 747s, EI-BED, was operated in a 468 seat all-Y class layout, and they certainly filled them.

Towards the end, they became quite difficult to maintain and what really caused a problem was the Shannon stopover policy, which added a lot of costs, not just in fuel, but also in pressure cycles; it was for a long time the shortest 747 flight in the world and was done in about 25 minutes. In the end, the then Executive Chairman of EI, Bernie Cahill, went to the then transport minister, Brian Cowen, and told him that if the country wanted to have continued t/a services, that had to change. It was, and the airline ordered A330s and sadly, the old 747s were retired.

I think it's fair to say that they were much loved and much missed by everyone who had anything to do with them - passengers and crews alike. Yeah, the A330 was more modern, all singing and all dancing, but they never could match the presence of the 747. They'll always be fresh in the memory.

Here's a nice little video, narrated by the airline's senior 747 captain of the time, the late Aidan Quigley:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E-iMDMz8HM

... and here's a few gratuitous pictures:

In original colours ...

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Steve Williams



In the 1970s-80s Aer Lingus livery:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Fergal Goodman


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Fergal Goodman



and finally, alas, cruel fate:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ian Tate

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: BasilFawlty
Posted 2012-12-24 16:03:54 and read 21307 times.

Quoting ei737ng (Thread starter):
Just wondering why EI purchased the 747 considering Ireland's population size how did the fleet planners ever hope to fill them? A case of fleet misplanners?

More a case of prestige, like most airlines in that era.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: AmricanShamrok
Posted 2012-12-24 17:01:07 and read 21101 times.

Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 2):
Did EI's 747's fly to BOS at all?
Quoting kaitak (Reply 4):
Absolutely, right up until it retired; indeed, it also operated to ORD via BOS for a while (I did that as a pax, DUB-SNN-BOS-ORD ... wow, that was a trip and a half!)

Yes indeed, my first ever flights were the SNN-BOS-ORD runs on the 747. The flight numbers were EI123/EI122.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: milesrich
Posted 2012-12-24 17:21:18 and read 20942 times.

EI at least has a trans Atlantic route to operate them on. National, Eastern, Continental, and Delta all operated the 747-100, and ordered them for competitive reasons.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: type-rated
Posted 2012-12-24 17:26:44 and read 20875 times.

In 1970 it was very much a prestige thing to have the 747 in your fleet. Airlines advertised the arrival of their own months before they took delivery. It was truly a matter of pride.

I remember in the early 70's seeing a British Airways, Aer Lingus and Pan Am 747 at ORD at the old international terminal (Where Terminal 1 now sits) all in a row. It was a very impressive sight.

At the time Aer Lingus used to advertise package deals where you start your European vacation in Ireland and then see the other countries after that.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: jetjack74
Posted 2012-12-24 17:51:12 and read 20618 times.

Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 2):
But, have no fear, they weren't the only ones. History is littered with others who did the same...TP comes to mind with their 747-200's.

Or like Emirates?

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: FI642
Posted 2012-12-24 21:15:14 and read 19060 times.

Quoting tonystan (Reply 1):
The A330 basically saved Aer Lingus in my opinion!

I could not agree more!

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: Airportugal310
Posted 2012-12-24 21:52:01 and read 18834 times.

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 9):
Or like Emirates?

Interesting...did not know they had 747's...but then again, I only know of Emirates in the 2000's and not their previous history

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: BreninTW
Posted 2012-12-24 21:55:09 and read 18808 times.

Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 11):
Interesting...did not know they had 747's...but then again, I only know of Emirates in the 2000's and not their previous history

It appears they haven't ... at least not in PAX use, there are four 744F in Emirates livery.

http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Emirates.htm

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: tonymctigue
Posted 2012-12-24 22:00:41 and read 18763 times.

Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 2):
Did EI's 747's fly to BOS at all?

They most certainly did! My love of aviation comes from flying EI B747s from SNN to BOS. They were an impressive sight and most certainly are sorely missed. As much as they were loved, I will be the first to admity they were too much aircraft for EI definitely at the time they had them. That said, it is easy to judge a decision made in the 1960s based on 21st centuary economics. Fuel was cheap and government owned flag carriers like EI were seen as mobile advertising for the country whom they served and it was very much a case of everyone had to have the biggest and the best and in that time, the B747 was without a doubt the biggest and the best.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: tymnbalewne
Posted 2012-12-24 22:40:42 and read 18525 times.

Anyone remember the dramatic opening scenes of "White Nights"? (with Mikhail Baryshnikov and Gregory Hines)

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: factsonly
Posted 2012-12-24 23:58:48 and read 18020 times.

In 1974 EI leased one of their B747 to East African Airways for a one weekly rotation LHR-FRA-NBO-FRA-LHR during the peak holiday winter season.

My first B747 flight was on the second operation on 20 December 1974 routing LHR-FRA-NBO.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ae...ways_Boeing_747-100_Fitzgerald.jpg

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: aerorobnz
Posted 2012-12-25 00:12:44 and read 17893 times.

Luxair had 747SP, Air New Zealand, Air Pacific the 742.All of which are tiny populations like Ireland or smaller.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: Jalap
Posted 2012-12-25 01:20:53 and read 17322 times.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 5):
More a case of prestige, like most airlines in that era.

That is often the answer, but wasn't the 747 also the most efficient long haul plane at the time? How did the seat per mile cost compare to the DC10 and L1011? Several airlines, like EI, operated their 'prestige' planes for decades, so surely they played a usefull role with those airlines.

Surely prestige played a role too but then again, prestige probably sold seats in those days. While nowadays the aviation industry has little to do with prestige....

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: winstonlegthigh
Posted 2012-12-25 02:17:50 and read 16800 times.

Quoting Jalap (Reply 17):
That is often the answer, but wasn't the 747 also the most efficient long haul plane at the time? How did the seat per mile cost compare to the DC10 and L1011? Several airlines, like EI, operated their 'prestige' planes for decades, so surely they played a usefull role with those airlines.

Surely prestige played a role too but then again, prestige probably sold seats in those days. While nowadays the aviation industry has little to do with prestige....

Ain't that the truth... Often times, it seems that this is overlooked.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: dergay
Posted 2012-12-25 05:40:10 and read 15026 times.

Quoting tonystan (Reply 1):
The A330 basically saved Aer Lingus in my opinion!

Don't forget the fact that Aer Lingus also operated a brace of Boeing 767s prior (methinks) to the introduction of the A-330.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: thijs1984
Posted 2012-12-25 05:50:42 and read 14915 times.

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 16):
Luxair had 747SP, Air New Zealand, Air Pacific the 742.All of which are tiny populations like Ireland or smaller.

In case of Luxair. the Cathment area of Luxembourg airport is much bigger than luxembourg itself.

And in case of air Pacific, it's the only good connection to the outside world. Unlike ireland which has very good short haul flight options to many big cities and many ferry connections.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: airbazar
Posted 2012-12-25 06:35:18 and read 14500 times.

Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 2):
But, have no fear, they weren't the only ones. History is littered with others who did the same...TP comes to mind with their 747-200's.

Not true. When TP ordered the 747 in 1970, they were very much needed. Unlike EI, TP actually flew their 747's and they needed the capacity and the cargo uplift because the 707's just weren't enough. The colonies generated a huge amount of traffic. The problem came later following the revolution in 1975 when Portugal lost its colonies.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: georgiaame
Posted 2012-12-25 06:52:49 and read 14316 times.

One of my first post college trips to Europe as a working (semi-) adult, was on EI 747 service, JFK-SHA-DUB, return via SHA (still qualifying for the $199 rt. youth fare offered). Granted it was a few years ago, but both flights were fully booked. Perhaps they were the only EI 747 flights that were, Had a lovely introduction to Irish butter on board. There was a woman behind me flying back home with her 8, yes 8, very young children. Perhaps if there were more like her flying, EI would still be in need of 747s today.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: jfk777
Posted 2012-12-25 09:09:12 and read 12986 times.

Whatever reason EI got Jumbos they were inefficiently run with the FORCED Shannon stopover. The runway in Dublin was arbitrarily short to prevent Jumbos from taking off on Trans Atlantic flights. Eventually the Irish Government saw the light and stopped the SNN stopover. DUB to SNN was the shortest scheduled flight by a 747.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: trex8
Posted 2012-12-25 09:14:49 and read 12922 times.

Flew the one leased to Air Siam at least twice in the 70s.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-12-25 09:42:39 and read 13115 times.

Quoting ei737ng (Thread starter):
Just wondering why EI purchased the 747 considering Ireland's population size how did the fleet planners ever hope to fill them? A case of fleet misplanners?

You could ask the same question about many other early 747 operators. They all thought they needed at least a couple of 747s for competitive reasons, whether it made any sense or not. In most cases it did not.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: irishtexan
Posted 2012-12-25 10:08:54 and read 12888 times.

Can recall EI 747's going out on other relatively short leases not mentioned above - Air Jamaica (Kingston and Montego Bay from LHR), Qantas (LHR-SYD) and also remember seeing an EI 747 leaving DUB carrying an extra engine at the start of a lease to Air Algerie.
Best memory on an EI 747 was sitting at a window seat and landing at SNN in a strong crosswind. Crabbing towards the airfield and having a clear view of the runway until just before touchdown. Was hugely impressed then and on several subsequent trips with varying levels of crosswind.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: airbazar
Posted 2012-12-25 10:11:15 and read 13231 times.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 5):
More a case of prestige, like most airlines in that era.

I don't think the majority of the early 747 operators bought them for prestige. I think a far greater number bought it for the range. Back then the only thing that could do long haul was the 707 and DC-8 and those had range limitations. Ragulation kept fares high and oil was also cheap right until the oil crisis of 1973. So the 747 made a lot of sense for a lot of airlines.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: CF-CPI
Posted 2012-12-25 10:23:14 and read 13060 times.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 4):
Here's a nice little video, narrated by the airline's senior 747 captain of the time, the late Aidan Quigley:

Great vid. All that green in the cabin leaves us in no doubt as to this 747's origins. The load was not extremely high, based on the empty seats back in economy. Typical of the era, people could spread out. Of course, it did look like off-season.

The First Class cabin seems to be limited to the A zone in the nose - that would make about 24 pax. Many other carriers extended F back into B zone.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-12-25 10:23:29 and read 13050 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 27):
Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 5):
More a case of prestige, like most airlines in that era.

I don't think the majority of the early 747 operators bought them for prestige. I think a far greater number bought it for the range.

That may be true for a few but by far the majority of early production 747-100s operated routes well within 707 and DC-8 range. That was certainly true for AA/UA/CO/DL/EI and many other early 747 customers.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: musang
Posted 2012-12-25 10:23:45 and read 13052 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 23):

Runway expansion was specifically prevented at DUB to prevent long haul ops?

Thanks - regards - musang

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-12-25 10:57:11 and read 12755 times.

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 28):
The First Class cabin seems to be limited to the A zone in the nose - that would make about 24 pax. Many other carriers extended F back into B zone.

For example, AA's 747-100s had 66 F class seats, 26 in the A zone in the nose and 40 in the B zone.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: yyz717
Posted 2012-12-25 11:01:16 and read 12698 times.

Quoting tonystan (Reply 1):
Like most things at the time you will discover that the 747 purchase was driven by politics and vanity. It was not an aircraft EI needed nor could they ever operate it efficiently.

True, but prior to the first oil shock, the 747 was seen as the "natural" replacement for the 707 and DC-8 as traffic was growing strongly.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 4):
Joking apart, the 747 did serve EI quite well; ok, at the outset, everyone got them because it was the optimism of the 1960s and fuel was cheap.
Quoting type-rated (Reply 8):
In 1970 it was very much a prestige thing to have the 747 in your fleet.

Exactly. Many carriers ordered an initial 2 747's to get the aircraft into their fleets. Not just EI, but also Sabena, National, Swissair, EL AL, SAS, TAP, Olympic.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: kaitak
Posted 2012-12-25 11:10:43 and read 12592 times.

Quoting musang (Reply 30):
Runway expansion was specifically prevented at DUB to prevent long haul ops?

This was long suspected, but there isn't a lot of evidence to back it up. When the old (pre 1989) runways were in operation, they certainly couldn't have permitted a nonstop 747 (or 707) service to the US, but it's kind of a chicken and egg situation, in the sense that the runways (which long pre-dated the jet age, although they were extended to a limited extent) were not extended because there was no business case to do so, because govt restrictions at the time did not allow westbound expansion and there was no eastbound long hauls either.

They did build a new runway, the current 10/28, which was opened in 1989. This was 8,650' long and although it probably should have been longer, it did allow nonstops by 747, which began in about 1993-94, about a year or so before the A330s came in.

Although I was a strong advocate of the abolition of the stopover policy, I have to confess that I did miss them; in the innocent, pre-9/11 days, you could almost always bag a jump seat on the DUB-SNN route. I recall travelling with my then 10 year old godson and both he and I got the jump seat for a VERY bad weather landing on 06 at SNN; I'll never forget the look on his face as he saw the runway lights just appear through the cloud on the final approach. Priceless memories (although that was an A330, now that I think of it!)

[Edited 2012-12-25 11:13:32]

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: XXXX10
Posted 2012-12-25 13:04:24 and read 11548 times.

The 747s wold often be used to LHR, normallly if there where Irish fans travelling over for a rugby match or at Christmas,
IIRC this was the case until the late 80s

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: EIDL
Posted 2012-12-25 13:53:09 and read 11295 times.

There's an element of pride and image to the purchase - its quite likely that EI would have bought anything with Boeing's name on it at that time. They ordered 2707s/SSTs for instance.

(actually that might have applied to the government in general - the now gone state-owned ferry firm bought a Boeing jetfoil!)

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: scarebus03
Posted 2012-12-25 13:53:50 and read 11299 times.

I remember the EI 747's being used for MGP on most Tuesdays. I vaguely remember that the EI B741s had some of the highest recorded cycles when they were removed from service with EI. I have many happy memories of getting the jump seat DUB-BOS-DUB.

As to why they were purchased? They were the only real step up from the 707 as there was really nothing in between with the same range available as a TATL jet at the time. The possibility of carrying extra cargo was probably another factor although from memory the EI birds were brutally underpowered and had limited payload.

Brgds

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: tonystan
Posted 2012-12-25 14:22:26 and read 11231 times.

Surprised no one has mentioned "Paddy Zulu" yet which was the B747 that went to BA (or was it BOAC) for a season!!!!!

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: scarebus03
Posted 2012-12-25 14:42:08 and read 11121 times.

Quoting tonystan (Reply 37):

It was -ASJ and I believe it was BA and BCAL however in what order I'm not sure

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: jfk777
Posted 2012-12-25 15:01:17 and read 11074 times.

Quoting irishtexan (Reply 26):
Can recall EI 747's going out on other relatively short leases not mentioned above - Air Jamaica (Kingston and Montego Bay from LHR), Qantas (LHR-SYD) and also remember seeing an EI 747 leaving DUB carrying an extra engine at the start of a lease to Air Algerie.

EI leased its 747 many times because they had a huge summer season but low winter demand to JFK and BOS.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: eta unknown
Posted 2012-12-25 19:42:22 and read 10777 times.

G-BDPZ was dedicated to the LHR-ORD route and operated out of LHR Terminal 1. Not sure if EI performed line maintenance on it at LHR.

The SNN stopover rule- yes, annoying as it was at the time, but it also helped EI- it kept many US carriers out of DUB.

Yes the 747 was way too big for EI. And remember EI was the first airline to operate them in 3-4-3 configuration.
In the 70's and early 80's, EI & SN were regarded as the basket case European airlines by US travel agents- outside of peak season these flight were never close to full.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: N1120A
Posted 2012-12-26 03:38:54 and read 10457 times.

Beyond prestige, the 747 offered significant range improvements over existing aircraft - and at a size that significantly reduced seat costs.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: airbazar
Posted 2012-12-26 04:58:23 and read 10357 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 29):
That may be true for a few but by far the majority of early production 747-100s operated routes well within 707 and DC-8 range. That was certainly true for AA/UA/CO/DL/EI and many other early 747 customers.

But with only 130 seats or so they were ridiculously expensive to fly when compared to the 747, and couldn't carry nearly the amount of cargo. Also, back then frequency was not yet king so it was perfectly acceptable to consolidate flights. But I find it ironic that you lump UA in with EI  
Quoting scarebus03 (Reply 36):
As to why they were purchased? They were the only real step up from the 707 as there was really nothing in between with the same range available as a TATL jet at the time. The possibility of carrying extra cargo was probably another factor although from memory the EI birds were brutally underpowered and had limited payload.

Exactly, it was the next step up not just in size and range, but especially in efficiency. EI to this day could still fill a 747 to BOS and JFK, seasonally, but in this day and age it's just not feasible to own and operate such a small, rigid fleet. The smaller twins offer much greater flexibility for similar cost whereas back in the 60's and 70's flexibility and frequency were not yet established business practices.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 32):
Exactly. Many carriers ordered an initial 2 747's to get the aircraft into their fleets. Not just EI, but also Sabena, National, Swissair, EL AL, SAS, TAP, Olympic.

i think that of those only National was an original 747-100 customer. The others ordered the later 200 model, which tells me that they took some time to think about the viability of the 747. Many of these carriers only had a couple of routes with demand for a 747. That is still true today except current day economics make it impossible to justify such a tiny fleet.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: shamrock604
Posted 2012-12-26 06:17:47 and read 10229 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 42):
Exactly, it was the next step up not just in size and range, but especially in efficiency. EI to this day could still fill a 747 to BOS and JFK, seasonally, but in this day and age it's just not feasible to own and operate such a small, rigid fleet.

EI would have no problem filling a couple of 747's year round - JFK is double daily through the year now, with BOS double daily from DUB on many days, with further flights from SNN. ORD will also go twice daily most days from DUB at the start of S13. EI is recording very strong load factors as it slowly builds DUB into a hub operation for TATL flights.

However, for 747 operations, they would probably need to sacrifice frequency, and probably offer a single daily service on many of those routes.

That doesnt sit well with the market which prefers greater options, and so the 330, and added frequency, is the right choice for EI.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-12-26 18:06:40 and read 9771 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 42):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 29):
That may be true for a few but by far the majority of early production 747-100s operated routes well within 707 and DC-8 range. That was certainly true for AA/UA/CO/DL/EI and many other early 747 customers.

But with only 130 seats or so they were ridiculously expensive to fly when compared to the 747

You're overlooking the DC-8-61 and -63 which usually operated with around 200 seats in a 2-class configuration, and up to 250 in a high-density all-Y configuration.

If you're sayiing that on a route with demand for only 130 seats, it was more cost effective to fly a 747 with only 130 passengers and 250 or so empty seats, I would disagree. Unfortunately for many carriers, that's exactly what happened on many 747 routes during the early years of service.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: yyz717
Posted 2012-12-26 18:27:07 and read 9726 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 42):
i think that of those only National was an original 747-100 customer. The others ordered the later 200 model, which tells me that they took some time to think about the viability of the 747.

The 742 was on offer before the 741 entered service. Indeed, the initial 742's entered service in late 1970, months after the initial 741. All the aforementioned carriers ordered their 2 (each) 741 or 742 aircraft before the 747 entered service.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-12-26 18:42:26 and read 9710 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 45):
Indeed, the initial 742's entered service in late 1970, months after the initial 741

Not quite. The first 742s were delivered to KLM and Swissair in January 1971, a full year after the 741 went into service..

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: yyz717
Posted 2012-12-26 18:48:50 and read 9672 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 46):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 45):
Indeed, the initial 742's entered service in late 1970, months after the initial 741

Not quite. The first 742s were delivered to KLM and Swissair in January 1971, a full year after the 741 went into service..

But still ordered before the 741 service entry, proving my point that many carriers ordered (token) 2 747's, not just EI.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-12-26 19:38:46 and read 9618 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 47):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 46):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 45):
Indeed, the initial 742's entered service in late 1970, months after the initial 741

Not quite. The first 742s were delivered to KLM and Swissair in January 1971, a full year after the 741 went into service..

But still ordered before the 741 service entry, proving my point that many carriers ordered (token) 2 747's, not just EI.

I don't understand what point you are trying to make re the 742 vs 741. Many carriers that bought small numbers of early 747s bought the 741 (including EI), not the 742. Yes, some carriers preferred to wait for the more capable 742, but far from all.

Some original customers for small numbers of 741s:

Aer Lingus - 2
Alitalia - 2
Braniff - 1 (2 ordered, one not taken up and was delivered to Wardair)
Continental - 4
Delta - 5
Eastern - 4
Iberia - 2
Lufthansa - 3
National - 2
Sabena - 2

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: yyz717
Posted 2012-12-26 20:26:13 and read 9578 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 48):
I don't understand what point you are trying to make re the 742 vs 741. Many carriers that bought small numbers of early 747s bought the 741 (including EI), not the 742.

Someone early in the thread said that only EI would buy (just) 2 747's for prestige. I was pointing out that it was common.

Don't forget AC's initial order for 3x 741.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: airbazar
Posted 2012-12-27 06:34:26 and read 9321 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 44):

If you're sayiing that on a route with demand for only 130 seats, it was more cost effective to fly a 747 with only 130 passengers and 250 or so empty seats, I would disagree. Unfortunately for many carriers, that's exactly what happened on many 747 routes during the early years of service.

No, that's not it   I was suggesting that with the explosion of air travel in the 60's, airlines saw the need for a bigger more capable airplane and the 747 had a cost per seat that was far lower than the 707/DC8. Funny enough it's the same exact scenario that we have right now with the A380. I wonder how many people will be claiming 40 years from now, that the majority of A380 customers ordered it for prestige only 
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 45):
The 742 was on offer before the 741 entered service. Indeed, the initial 742's entered service in late 1970, months after the initial 741. All the aforementioned carriers ordered their 2 (each) 741 or 742 aircraft before the 747 entered service.

My point is that if they really just wanted to be like the "Jones's" they would have ordered the first available. They ordered the more capable 200, my guess because they really beleived that there was a need for it. It's very difficult for me to believe that a carrier that continued to operate the 747 right up to the 90's and 2000's, and in some cases still do, odered the early 747's for prestige only. That may or may not have been the case for a few but I do believe that for the majority they did think that they could use it given the aviation context of the late 60's.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 47):
But still ordered before the 741 service entry, proving my point that many carriers ordered (token) 2 747's, not just EI.

Most carriers only had a couple of routes with enough demand for the 747. why would they order more?

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: shamrock604
Posted 2012-12-27 07:47:34 and read 9199 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 50):
It's very difficult for me to believe that a carrier that continued to operate the 747 right up to the 90's and 2000's, and in some cases still do, odered the early 747's for prestige only

Indeed. EI could have ditched the entire 747 fleet quite easily, and much sooner than it did. EI ordered 2 767-300ER's specifically to launch a DUB-LAX service in the late 80's. That service didnt go ahead as the Irish government would not permit a direct DUB-LAX routing, insisting on the Shannon stop.

EI could have kept those 767's, adding one or two more, to replace the 747 fleet. They chose instead to keep the 747.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2013-01-01 14:16:14 and read 8172 times.

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 51):
EI could have kept those 767's, adding one or two more, to replace the 747 fleet. They chose instead to keep the 747.

Those two 767 were owned by GPA, and since they couldn't fly them on the wished route, they spent a lot of time sub-leased to other carriers, like AeroMexico, before going to TW. Only EI-CAL got painted in EI livery and in three years, it accumulated 6038 hours and 2792 landings, while with TW for two years, the numbers rose to 15787 and 4280 respectively.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: bx737
Posted 2013-01-01 16:40:41 and read 7911 times.

When EI ordered the 747s the passenger numbers were rising. They needed a bigger aircraft than the 707 for the summer period. This was recognised at the time and EI made a deal with Trans Carribbean to lease the 2 747s to them for the winter. However before this deal could operate Trans Carribbean was taken over by American Airlines who cancelled the agreement. This left EI with the problem of two 747s that were not required for the winter periods. In the heel of the hunt, EI sued AA and won damages from them.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: warden145
Posted 2013-01-01 17:34:05 and read 7812 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 32):
True, but prior to the first oil shock, the 747 was seen as the "natural" replacement for the 707 and DC-8 as traffic was growing strongly.
Quoting airbazar (Reply 50):
I was suggesting that with the explosion of air travel in the 60's, airlines saw the need for a bigger more capable airplane and the 747 had a cost per seat that was far lower than the 707/DC8. Funny enough it's the same exact scenario that we have right now with the A380. I wonder how many people will be claiming 40 years from now, that the majority of A380 customers ordered it for prestige only
Quoting airbazar (Reply 50):
I do believe that for the majority they did think that they could use it given the aviation context of the late 60's.

   Thank you guys...it's amazing how things may appear with the benefit of hindsight; however, with all due respect, I get the impression that there are some who are only looking at this from today's perspective, without taking into consideration how airlines operated at the time and how the future looked to the airlines as they were placing these orders. I think people tend to forget how much things changed in the 1970's with the oil shocks, and for that matter, deregulation in the U.S. airline industry...and how the world looked before these events...

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: Tango-Bravo
Posted 2013-01-01 20:35:38 and read 7640 times.

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 52):
Those two 767 were owned by GPA, and since they couldn't fly them on the wished route, they spent a lot of time sub-leased to other carriers,

What were the routes on which EI wished to fly the 767s they leased from GPA? What were the routes on which they were actually flown?

Seems like the 767-300ER would have been ideal for EI's trans-Atlantic services on a year-around basis, given what seem to be considerable seasonal fluctuations in the Ireland-North America market. (due to high percentage of VFR/tourist/leisure pax?). The 767s would also have allowed increased frequencies and more non-stop flight possibilities to their North American markets.

Quoting tonystan (Reply 1):
The A330 basically saved Aer Lingus in my opinion!

On the trans-Atlantic routes for sure. According to a caption associated with a photo of an EI A330-300 I came across minutes ago: "Due to the [A330's] frugal fuel consumption, their introduction very quickly turned around routes which had been operating at a loss for several years..."

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2013-01-01 21:32:04 and read 7585 times.

Except the 767s didn't offer enough capacity for the summer, it really was that simple.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: Newark727
Posted 2013-01-01 22:47:47 and read 7538 times.

If you were a 747-100 customer, and it was because you needed more space than a 707, it doesn't seem like you had that many more options when the 747 was approaching production, though. You could jump ship from Boeing and get a stretch DC-8, you could hold out for the DC-10 and L-1011- but from what I understand, those were at first being considered for shorter, domestic-USA type routes, and the longer range models such as for trans-Atlantic were only offered somewhat later. If you were in EI's position, where you're doing some long flights across the Atlantic Ocean but not fielding a Pacific network or anything like that, the 747-100's lack of range compared to later 707 variants wouldn't seem to be as big an issue, either.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this, I may have a whole bunch of dates wrong.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: kaitak
Posted 2013-01-01 22:56:58 and read 7522 times.

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 55):
What were the routes on which EI wished to fly the 767s they leased from GPA? What were the routes on which they were actually flown?

Originally, they were ordered for the DUB-LAX route, but as mentioned above, the govt of the time rejected this. There was a huge debate about this and the govt was really just kowtowing to the regional lobby, which knew where to kick them. The Dublin lobby just used logic and economics, which really didn't work at all! One of the 767s was sitting out on the apron for a very long time, doing nothing. One was used for about a year (perhaps less - can't recall) on the DUB-SNN-BOS route; that one had a hybrid Air Aruba livery.

I have a timetable somewhere at home for 1992 and at one stage they intended to use them for a thrice weekly DUB-SNN-ORD flight, but it never happened.

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 57):
If you were in EI's position, where you're doing some long flights across the Atlantic Ocean but not fielding a Pacific network or anything like that, the 747-100's lack of range compared to later 707 variants wouldn't seem to be as big an issue, either.Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this, I may have a whole bunch of dates wrong.

Absolutely correct. The 747-100 was fine for EI's needs; the -200 didn't offer them anything useful. They did briefly consider secondhand -300s from SAA to replace the -100s, but of course, Airbus came with the A330s and the rest - as they say - history.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: Newark727
Posted 2013-01-01 23:07:36 and read 7502 times.

Did the DC-8-61 and -63 have trans-Atlantic range? Seems they didn't do much of that sort of flying except on weird military charters because of airline regulation in the US, and then once that happened everybody had proper widebodies.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2013-01-02 09:01:50 and read 7190 times.

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 57):
you could hold out for the DC-10 and L-1011- but from what I understand, those were at first being considered for shorter, domestic-USA type routes, and the longer range models such as for trans-Atlantic were only offered somewhat later

You are right about that but, to connect Ireland with say BOS, JFK and ORD, even the DC-10-10, the original version made for US domestic services, could have probably made it. With Great Circle Mapper, which is not the most accurate way to calculate the route length, SNN-JFK is 3,081 miles, whereas a DC-10-10 could fly up to 3,800 miles.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: WA707atMSP
Posted 2013-01-02 09:51:37 and read 7089 times.

Before EI's 747s entered service, they signed an agreement with Trans Caribbean for TCA to lease the aircraft during the winter season. This would have worked out well, because winter was TCA's high season.

However, AA took over TCA in March, 1971, and promptly cancelled the agreement. EI sued AA, and ultimately AA was forced to pay several million dollars to EI to cover the revenue EI would have earned from the lease.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-01-02 12:53:37 and read 6892 times.

I think what a lot of younger readers here don't understand is that between the B707/DC-8/VC-10 and the B747, there was a huge leap in comfort ... and a huge competitive edge. When the B747 was introduced, it was THE airplane and if you were only flying a narrow body, then you simply could not compete. Period.

So, PA and TW had large fleets of B747s ... and they flew them everywhere. If the country to where they were flying did not have an airline that also had B747s, then they might as well shut down the route until they did. Sounds crazy, but that is how it was in the early 1970s. These airlines didn't need the speed, they didn't need the range and they didn't need the economy ... they needed the all important bold faced type in the timetable that indicated a wide body aircraft, and in those days the only wide body aircraft was the B747.

When the DC-10s, and L1011s started flying, it allowed airlines that could not fill a B747 to compete, as they were perceived with the same competitive edge. Same thing with the B767 and the A310, but one ratchet down, when they appeared.

So why did EI purchase the B747? They had to ... because that is what the competition was doing!

I know for the younger enthusiasts here it seems unimaginable. Especially today when lets face it, the B747. B767, A340, A380, etc etc etc are all the same to an average passenger. And yes, the B787 is an amazing aircraft ... but to Aunt Ethel buying a seat to DUB, she doesn't care!

But this is the funny part, she did in 1970!

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: Tango-Bravo
Posted 2013-01-02 13:24:25 and read 6820 times.

Since we have discussed the related subject of EI's trans-Atantic routes here, when and why did they discontinue Montreal? Seems that Canada would be a traffic generator of some significance for EI for the same reasons as NYC/BOS/ORD. Was it due in any way to a lack-of-suitable-aircraft issue?

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-01-02 13:41:55 and read 6763 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 62):
So why did EI purchase the B747? They had to ... because that is what the competition was doing!

But EI's primary market was Ireland. Who was EI competing with that operated 747s to Ireland? Pan Am didn't serve Ireland and even in the late '70s TWA was still using 707s to Ireland, 7 or 8 years after EI had put their 747s into service.

Nobody except government-owned EI was willing to bear the costs of the requirement that all transatlantic flights to DUB also had to serve SNN which meant EI had to fly 747s on the 105 nm SNN-DUB sector. TWA dropped SNN and DUB about the time they retired their 707s.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: shamrock604
Posted 2013-01-02 13:44:25 and read 6746 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 64):

Pan Am did fly to Ireland - just not to Dublin.

Services by PA remained at SNN instead.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-01-02 13:50:47 and read 6717 times.

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 65):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 64):

Pan Am did fly to Ireland - just not to Dublin.

Services by PA remained at SNN instead.

Yes I see Pan Am had SNN service in 1973, also using the 707 like TWA, but they must have dropped Ireland completely not long after (probably also around the time they retired their 707s) as there's no Ireland service in a 1979 timetable.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: LO231
Posted 2013-01-02 14:15:32 and read 6651 times.

We should also look at photo search at WAW and LY. Sometimes they need them a lot, especially during holidays,, World War, Holocaust periodes and such. I've seen thousands of Israeli students coming to Poland as a school trip. Big capacity and Israel cannot afford Boeing from US to become unfriendly, he

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: LO231
Posted 2013-01-02 14:17:20 and read 6642 times.

We should also look at photo search at WAW and LY. Sometimes they need them a lot, especially during holidays,, World War, Holocaust periodes and such. I've seen thousands of Israeli students coming to Poland as a school trip. Big capacity and Israel cannot afford Boeing from US to become unfriendly, he

BTW. It's one of the very few airlines that WAW has a pleasure to see with 744

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-01-02 15:18:12 and read 6538 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 64):
But EI's primary market was Ireland. Who was EI competing with that operated 747s to Ireland? Pan Am didn't serve Ireland and even in the late '70s TWA was still using 707s to Ireland, 7 or 8 years after EI had put their 747s into service.

Yes. But I almost wonder if it was the chicken or the egg. Had EI not started B747 service into Ireland, would PA and TW have? That edge in competition was hard to ignore. With the huge B747 orders from PA, and to a lesser extent TW, as well as AF and BA through connections, certainly the threat of wide-body competition was there.

And being first, and already flying them, I wonder if PA and TW had not acknowledged that EI always would fly them, and not back down from competition once it started? And PA and TW just continued with their B707s.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: WA707atMSP
Posted 2013-01-03 07:56:15 and read 6234 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 64):

Pan Am did fly to Ireland - just not to Dublin.

Services by PA remained at SNN instead.

Yes I see Pan Am had SNN service in 1973, also using the 707 like TWA, but they must have dropped Ireland completely not long after (probably also around the time they retired their 707s) as there's no Ireland service in a 1979 timetable.[/quote]

Pan Am and TWA had a "mini swap" in early 1974, where PA relinquished their US-Ireland authority (leaving TWA as the sole US carrier to Ireland) in exchange for TWA relinquishing their Detroit-Europe nonstop / no change of plane authority (leaving PA as the only US carrier with nonstop / single plane authority from DTW to Europe; TWA was allowed to continue to carry DTW-Europe passengers as long as they changed planes in New York). This swap was a precursor to the much larger PA / AA and PA / TW route swaps in 1974 / 1975.

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 63):
when and why did they discontinue Montreal? Seems that Canada would be a traffic generator of some significance for EI for the same reasons as NYC/BOS/ORD. Was it due in any way to a lack-of-suitable-aircraft issue?

I think EI discontinued Montreal when they retired their 707s. The 747 was too large to serve Montreal year round, especially because once transatlantic flights moved from YUL to YMX, it was much harder for passengers from elsewhere in Canada to connect to EI's Montreal-Ireland flights.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: tonystan
Posted 2013-01-03 11:23:00 and read 6105 times.

I wonder how different EI operations on the Atlantic may have looked during the 70s and 80s if they had held off a few years and waited for the DC10 or Tristar to enter service. Aer Lingushad a number of successful Tristar leases over the years during the peak seasons.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: tonystan
Posted 2013-01-03 11:23:55 and read 6105 times.

I wonder how different EI operations on the Atlantic may have looked during the 70s and 80s if they had held off a few years and waited for the DC10 or Tristar to enter service. Aer Lingushad a number of successful Tristar leases over the years during the peak seasons.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2013-01-03 13:32:21 and read 5995 times.

Quoting tonystan (Reply 71):
I wonder how different EI operations on the Atlantic may have looked during the 70s and 80s if they had held off a few years and waited for the DC10 or Tristar to enter service.

I don't remember at what time Aer Lingus placed its order for the 747s, but talks about the new long range DC-10-30 happened during 1969 with KSSU group (KL, SK, SR & UT) and they placed that year a group order for 14 + 22 options. That was a year or so before the first DC-10 maiden flight.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-01-03 13:54:51 and read 5959 times.

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 73):
I don't remember at what time Aer Lingus placed its order for the 747s, but talks about the new long range DC-10-30 happened during 1969

Boeing shows the the date of the EI order for 2 741s as January 10, 1967.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 70):
Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 63):
when and why did they discontinue Montreal? Seems that Canada would be a traffic generator of some significance for EI for the same reasons as NYC/BOS/ORD. Was it due in any way to a lack-of-suitable-aircraft issue?

I think EI discontinued Montreal when they retired their 707s. The 747 was too large to serve Montreal year round, especially because once transatlantic flights moved from YUL to YMX,

EI flights to YUL continued to ORD, That route (DUB-SNN-YUL-ORD) started in April 1966, twice a week. I don't think EI had 5th freedom rights YUL-ORD.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2013-01-03 14:06:44 and read 5905 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 74):
Boeing shows the the date of the EI order for 2 741s as January 10, 1967.

Right, so that was a good two years before the DC-10-30 order I was referring to.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 4):
Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 2):Did EI's 747's fly to BOS at all?Absolutely, right up until it retired; indeed, it also operated to ORD via BOS for a while

Back in July 1989, I saw one of their 747 overnight at ORD

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-01-03 14:11:48 and read 5886 times.

Quoting georgiaame (Reply 22):
There was a woman behind me flying back home with her 8, yes 8, very young children.

'Octomom, the prequel'

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: soon7x7
Posted 2013-01-03 14:18:12 and read 5947 times.

EI-BED retired w/ 101,000 hours on her. I cut up her cargo doors, rudders, flaps , landing gears 2 years ago. Still got the upper crew escape hatches, vertical fin cap, movie screen, crew life jackets, made a desk from her wing...still, she ain't dead! Even have the "St Kieren" cut out from her skin. Considering all the time she flew, her insides were in relatively good shape. More ramp rash than corrosion...RIP

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: Tango-Bravo
Posted 2013-01-07 18:06:57 and read 5454 times.

Looking at EI's Winter 1972-73 timetable, the only 747 flights shown in their entire network of the time are EI/IN 105/104 DUB-SNN-JFK/JFK-SNN-DUB (IN = Aerlinte Eireann, then the official designation for EI's trans-Atlantic services), operating on Mondays and Thursdays only. Seems like a major underutilization of even one aircraft, let alone two (EI-ASI and -ASJ were both in the fleet at the time) as well as confirming that 747s were "way too much" aircraft for EI/IN's Winter schedule (which EI apparently recognized from the outset). Looking at the histories of -ASI and -ASJ, I find no record of either being leased out prior to September 1973.

So... were EI's two 747s idle during most of the Winter 1972-73 season, or did EI find other work for them besides the scheduled twice weekly JFK turnaround? Did the ill-fated lease agreement with Trans Caribbean (merged into AA March 1971) mentioned in Reply 53 in any way adversely effect EI's opportunities to lease their 747s to another airline(s) some 19 months after the TCA lease was cancelled by AA?

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: luckyone
Posted 2013-01-07 18:37:05 and read 5430 times.

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 59):
Did the DC-8-61 and -63 have trans-Atlantic range

The -63 definitely had Transatlantic range from Ireland.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 64):
But EI's primary market was Ireland. Who was EI competing with that operated 747s to Ireland?

Just a thought, but did VFR have a hand in this decision? When the 747's were ordered, there were still a great many first generation Irish immigrants, and they were a relatively young population. Add up them and their children going home to visit the grandparents and other family, and you could have a solid business case for a larger aircraft. That case could have become less important as the Irish immigrants integrated into the general American population.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: JETSTREAM63
Posted 2013-01-08 11:34:46 and read 5156 times.

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 77):

I flew on all three of the EI 747s over the years including 6 flights on EI-BED. Interesting to hear that you were there at the very end of her career. As has been mentioned already, they were never a very suitable fleet choice for the airline and the Shannon stopover rule killed any real chance of viability. Always felt that maybe they should have switched to the 767-200ER/-300ER when they first came out but of course money for the investment was another problem. The A330s have certainly proven to be much more successful and I enjoy flying on them.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-01-08 15:26:04 and read 5056 times.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 79):
Quoting Newark727 (Reply 59):
Did the DC-8-61 and -63 have trans-Atlantic range

The -63 definitely had Transatlantic range from Ireland.

Even the -61 could probably handle Ireland-East Coast U.S. routes without much problem. Remember EI also used the early JT3C-powered Boeing 720 on transatlantic routes which Boeing shows as having about 400 NM less range than a DC-8-61, both with full passenger loads and no cargo..

The DC-8-63 could handle Europe-West Coast.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: kaitak
Posted 2013-01-17 13:10:33 and read 4594 times.

Just came across this video from back in 1971 - nice!

http://euscreen.eu/play.jsp?id=EUS_666F78AFD0A7494196545257027FACDA

Sometimes we forget what a massive step it was from the existing aircraft, the 707 and DC10, to the 747.

The A330 may be more modern and economic - and you can't say it isn't sleek, particularly in EI colours - but it still doesn't have the presence of the 747.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2013-01-17 13:28:13 and read 4532 times.

Interesting archive.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 82):
The A330 may be more modern and economic - and you can't say it isn't sleek, particularly in EI colours - but it still doesn't have the presence of the 747.

I guess that presence is of course due to the sheer size and shape of the beast, but also probably due to the huge leap forward it represented back then. My mother has remembered several times her impression when she first encountered the DC-10. It was like facing a building, especially when boarding was from the tarmac through movable stairs.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: ClassicLover
Posted 2013-01-17 13:37:43 and read 4506 times.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 82):
http://euscreen.eu/play.jsp?id=EUS_666F78AFD0A7494196545257027FACDA

Beautiful link!!!!

My favourite quite - "It's so damned big that walking down its corridors is almost like a stroll down Grafton street."

Also, check those Economy Class meals - like Business Class today!

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: tonymctigue
Posted 2013-01-18 00:24:51 and read 4296 times.

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 84):
Also, check those Economy Class meals - like Business Class today!

Speaking of meala on EI 747s, does anyone remember the kiddies meal box they used to give out? If I recall, it used to always be a burger, a green apple and (possibly) chips? Does anyone here also remember the "Youngs Flyers" they used to give out? The contents varied from time to time but they generally used to have crayons, a colouring book, some postcards with pictures of EI aircraft and a badge with "Youngs Flyers" on it? There is also a whole drawer full of teaspoons at home that have the EI logo printed on them all "borrowed" from EI 747s.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: EagleBoy
Posted 2013-01-18 00:48:26 and read 4248 times.

I have one of those old Young Flyers goodie bags, and a kids wings too

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: shankly
Posted 2013-01-18 01:42:20 and read 4202 times.

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 84):
Also, check those Economy Class meals - like Business Class today!


....with proper potatoes as rightly demanded by all good Irishmen and women!

As a young spotter in the 70'sand 80's, the EI 747's would pop up in many guises...Paddy Zulu already noted, being very familiar to those of us at LHR. It strikes me that whilst it may have been a tad too much plane for EI, they were masters of recovering its utilization (and therefore revenue) via leasing

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: tonymctigue
Posted 2013-01-18 05:50:51 and read 4070 times.

Quoting shankly (Reply 87):
As a young spotter in the 70'sand 80's, the EI 747's would pop up in many guises...Paddy Zulu already noted, being very familiar to those of us at LHR. It strikes me that whilst it may have been a tad too much plane for EI, they were masters of recovering its utilization (and therefore revenue) via leasing

It was leasing out excess EI capacity during the slow winter seasons that gave birth to what was once the worlds largest aircraft sales and leasing firms, Guinness Peat Aviation based in Shannon which included Mr Tony Ryan (who also gave us something else with the name Ryan attached) as one of its founders. Sadly, it all came to a tragic end in 1992 after a disasterous IPO which brought the company down. You can almost argue that finding a way to use EI 747s during the winter season in a convoluted way gave birth to Ryanair. Here's a few links with some info on GPA.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinness_Peat_Aviation

http://www.independent.ie/business/g...ed-before-crashlanding-388670.html

http://www.planespotters.net/Airline/Guinness-Peat-Aviation-%28GPA%29

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: Sligo
Posted 2013-01-18 06:07:54 and read 4026 times.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 4):
... and here's a few gratuitous pictures:

Excellent picture selection there. Thanks for digging those up in order....

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: soon7x7
Posted 2013-01-18 06:47:50 and read 3984 times.

Quoting JETSTREAM63 (Reply 80):

I found some photos the other day of the rudder with the shamrock laying on the ground before I chopped her up...still have the shamrock panels though, for some reason I saved a lot of parts from EI-BED. I even fabricated an exec desk from a 4'X6' wing plank before they chopped up the wings...came out nice...Part of the deal was I grew up close to JFK and used to see her all the time flying over my house and at the time the green was one of the loudest paint schemes at JFK, 'cept Braniff.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: jfk777
Posted 2013-01-18 11:38:43 and read 3816 times.

Evrey one eating Filet Migon in coach ? Remember its the inaugural 747 for Aer Lingus so they could have had a "special meal." Even in 1970 EI wasn't that generous. In 2007 when Singapore Air had their A380 inaugural, coach had J class meals too.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: DTWPurserBoy
Posted 2013-01-19 06:40:00 and read 3480 times.

EI has a long history of buying questionable airplanes (i.e. B720 and 747) but then making money by leasing them out. Kind of a risky financial strategy IMHO.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: scarebus03
Posted 2013-01-19 13:40:19 and read 3189 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 92):

I certainly wouldn't refer to the 747 or indeed 720 being questionable Aircraft! However suitability for EI certainly may have been questionable. In those days there was no bad decision possible as it was all state funding.

Ah those were the days........!

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: tonymctigue
Posted 2013-01-19 16:38:59 and read 3034 times.

Quoting scarebus03 (Reply 93):
EI has a long history of buying questionable airplanes (i.e. B720 and 747) but then making money by leasing them out. Kind of a risky financial strategy IMHO.

I think it is also easy to look at the likes of the B747 and B720 as "questionable" aircraft for EI looking at it from today's point of view. It is very easy to forget that you had very little to choose from in those days in terms of long haul aircraft. The mere idea of flying the Altantic with a twin was laughable. Your choice was literally limited to two basic aircraft types which were the DC8/B707 type or the DC10/B747 type. My opinion is that the only truly useless aircraft type that EI bought was the Carvair.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: DTWPurserBoy
Posted 2013-01-20 06:57:20 and read 2721 times.

I have often wondered if EI made more money actually flying people to and from Ireland or from aircraft leasing to third parties. If I remember correctly, their first non-fan B720's could not make it nonstop to JFK without a fuel stop and it wasn't until they took delivery of the B707-348's they could make the trip.

In the 70's and 80's it was not unusual to see EI aircraft all over the world leased out. It is an unusual business model but can catch up to you quickly if the economy turns south and the leases run out or the leasor stops making payments. You find yourself with a lot of parked very expensive hardware.

Topic: RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?
Username: EagleBoy
Posted 2013-01-20 07:58:04 and read 2651 times.

In the 60's 70's EI were seen as non-aligned so they were an acceptable company to deal with for many countries around the round. Especially in Africa and the Carribean.

The leasing/MX work/aviation consultancy sidelines were in place to counter act the highly seasonal nature of the Irish airline trade. I realise that downturns can affect leases' but EI could just move elsewhere in the globe. The global economy was not as tightly bound then as it is today.

EI were able to utilse their own aircraft in the Northern Hemisphere summer then lease them out during the Southern Hemisphere summer when they were surplus at home.


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