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Topic: Another 100 Flights Were Canceled At Egll On Sat
Username: kamilinlondon
Posted 2013-01-19 06:58:29 and read 9201 times.

Hi All

As this time of year comes Heathrow seems to be the Airport that cannot handle a day of continues snowfall.
Will that Airport ever be prepared for heavy snow ?????? . On Friday there were nearly 400 flights canceled!!!

My thoughts ....

Your thoughts????

Regards Kamilinlondon....

Topic: RE: Another 100 Flights Were Canceled At Egll On Sat
Username: david_itl
Posted 2013-01-19 07:07:24 and read 9161 times.

You do realise the airport really does need perfect weather to run efficiently given the generally accepted figure of being 99% full so any kind of disruption means trouble.

Tomorrow there's a 20% reduction in movements due forecast adverse weather.

Topic: RE: Another 100 Flights Were Canceled At Egll On Sat
Username: kamilinlondon
Posted 2013-01-19 07:13:57 and read 9108 times.

Quoting david_itl (Reply 1):


Yes I do realize that. But in all fairness there are conditions you can get prepared for I think. I live about 2 miles from LHR and it was only snowing for couple of hours on Friday. So I'm surprised they didn't had a fleet of snow plough's or any other equipment just in case it will get white .
But then I'm not an Airport worker and might be wrong on it.  

Topic: RE: Another 100 Flights Were Canceled At Egll On Sat
Username: goldcrest
Posted 2013-01-19 07:19:58 and read 9056 times.

Am also guessing that snow at various airports around Europe impacted the LHR operation also.

Topic: RE: Another 100 Flights Were Canceled At Egll On Sat
Username: B6JFKH81
Posted 2013-01-19 07:22:52 and read 9035 times.

Also please remember that if an airline has a hub somewhere that is impacted by a bad IROP (such as a snowstorm), and cancels a bunch of flights accordingly, it takes a few days to have full operational recovery based on aircraft and crew position. So, often times you will see cancellations for a day or so after the IROP as planes and crews re-position.

Quoting kamilinlondon (Reply 2):
So I'm surprised they didn't had a fleet of snow plough's or any other equipment just in case it will get white .

Even with a fleet of snow plows, airports can close. Happens all the time over here. The crews do their best, but it's not just runways but the taxiways and ramps and service roads that need to be kept cleared. It is A LOT of ground to cover, a lot of miles of concrete and asphalt to clear, and sometimes the storm just wins the battle over the crews trying to fight the storm. You are better safe than sorry, having a plane slide off the side or end of a runway after touching down is never a good thing, even if everyone walks away without a scratch.

Topic: RE: Another 100 Flights Were Canceled At Egll On Sat
Username: peterinlisbon
Posted 2013-01-19 07:34:09 and read 8910 times.

Even if they have enough equipment to clear all of the runways, they have to close the runways and taxiways whilst they're clearing them, so inevitably some flights have to be cancelled. And if you clear the runway and it snows again, you have to start all over again. Another issue is de-icing. This takes a long time for each aircraft and they have to queue up for it, so it is impossible to maintain a flight every 60 seconds as would be normal - they can't de-ice them that quickly. I think people look at places like Stockholm or Moscow where there are less delays due to adverse weather, but these places aren't so full to capacity so closing the runway for half an hour there doesn't cause a huge backlogue of aircraft waiting to land / take off as it does at Heathrow, and de-icing is a normal procedure for almost every flight all through the winter. Amsterdam has has loads of runways, even Paris CDG has 4, so whilst clearing one they can still maintain operations on the others without significant delays. Closing a runway for an hour at Heathrow causes chaos, whilst at Amsterdam no-one would even notice.

Topic: RE: Another 100 Flights Were Canceled At Egll On Sat
Username: kamilinlondon
Posted 2013-01-19 07:36:24 and read 8883 times.

Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 4):

That's absolutely accurate answer to my questions. Thanks for the kindness B6JFKH81 . I am a newbie and comments like that are very pleasant to hear. All the best!!!

Regards Kamilinlondon.

Topic: RE: Another 100 Flights Were Canceled At Egll On Sat
Username: thenoflyzone
Posted 2013-01-19 07:41:59 and read 8849 times.

At least the airport remained open.

Ever since BAA hired the help of snow removal expertise from ORD, YUL and ZRH, the situation at LHR has improved dramatically.

Interesting read...

http://www.ft.com/cms/89937494-55ed-11e0-8de9-00144feab49a.pdf

Thenoflyzone

Topic: RE: Another 100 Flights Were Canceled At Egll On Sat
Username: kamilinlondon
Posted 2013-01-19 07:48:37 and read 8794 times.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 7):

Thanks for that. I remember that winter well to good. It took me 29h to get from TXL to LHR via LBA lol. Im glad they have used the experience of other Airports operatives..

Regards

Kamilinlondon.

Topic: RE: Another 100 Flights Were Canceled At Egll On Sat
Username: B6JFKH81
Posted 2013-01-19 07:53:54 and read 8758 times.

Quoting kamilinlondon (Reply 6):
That's absolutely accurate answer to my questions. Thanks for the kindness B6JFKH81 . I am a newbie and comments like that are very pleasant to hear. All the best!!!

Anytime, that's what we're here for!  
Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 7):
Interesting read...

http://www.ft.com/cms/89937494-55ed-...a.pdf

Taking a quick scan through it and you are correct, interesting indeed! I need to print this out and read it while having my evening cocktail tonight, lots of detail and analysis....I'm all about that!! Thanks for the link!

Topic: RE: Another 100 Flights Were Canceled At Egll On Sat
Username: morvious
Posted 2013-01-19 08:03:40 and read 8684 times.

Well if EGLL weather conditions are like EHAM (I think EGLL gets more snow, ut not much) then I can understand this. How many days per year do they have delays such as this weekend and yesterday due to snow?

Topic: RE: Another 100 Flights Were Canceled At Egll On Sat
Username: apodino
Posted 2013-01-19 08:56:57 and read 8466 times.

Even the hub airports in the US are like this. I will use MSP, since that is an airport that is affected often by winter weather. If they have to take out runways for snow removal...it will delay flights into the airport, so DL often cancels when that happens. Truthfully speaking, in the case of LHR, 400 flights is not the worst thing in the world.

Topic: RE: Another 100 Flights Were Canceled At Egll On Sat
Username: 9w748capt
Posted 2013-01-19 09:23:34 and read 8320 times.

Would be a lot more helpful and descriptive to put LHR in the thread title. Sure, the true insiders here know what "EGLL" means - but a lot of us don't at first glance. Knowing it's LHR we're talking about adds a whole other dimension to the thread.

Topic: RE: Another 100 Flights Were Canceled At Egll On Sat
Username: BlueShamu330s
Posted 2013-01-19 09:48:05 and read 8212 times.

Heathrow was also in LVPs for most of the day, so if you couple that with periods when each runway had to be closed for a sweep and de-ice, I think BAA handled the situation pretty well.

Having said that, this kind of thread rears its head every time the UK has snow, and we all know A.net armchair Airfield Managers are far more capable than the professionals out there actually doing it..!

Rgds

Topic: RE: Another 100 Flights Were Canceled At Egll On Sat
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2013-01-19 10:01:03 and read 8164 times.

Quoting kamilinlondon (Thread starter):
As this time of year comes Heathrow seems to be the Airport that cannot handle a day of continues snowfall.
Will that Airport ever be prepared for heavy snow ?????? . On Friday there were nearly 400 flights canceled!!!

With the slot system setup for normal weather conditions, any weather event that slows arrivals acceptance rate will cause delays and cancellations. This is just a fact of how airports that are busy respond to weather. Low fog and snow will always slow arrival rates. Regardless of how many plows you have, the runway will be unserviceable for some time.

Airports in most cities are built overcapacity. Denver rarely slows acceptance rates in the winter since its fair weather acceptance rate is three times normal capacity. On the other hand SFO always has acceptance rate dropping when clouds are below 4000ft and has flow control delays. Airlines prefer to plan for the best weather day and deal with the consequences in bad weather at busy airports.

The solution at LHR is more runways or lower the number of slots. Airlines want to operate at max capacity when they can and are willing to proactively cancel flights and deal with the consequences.

With that said there are areas of opportunity to improve the poor weather operations.

Topic: RE: Another 100 Flights Were Canceled At Egll On Sat
Username: theginge
Posted 2013-01-19 10:04:50 and read 8136 times.

Heathrow not the only one affected by snow, Geneva was closed earlier so even airports that deal with snow seemingly better than LHR can be affected.

Topic: RE: Another 100 Flights Were Canceled At Egll On Sat
Username: braby
Posted 2013-01-19 23:49:00 and read 4538 times.

Having been on shift at LHR these last couple of days I have to take my hat off to the BAA, normally they are a complete joke with any snow but this year have been very organised and cleared the snow from the airfield quickly and effectively.
The main problem this year though has been low vis, for the last two days LHR has been in an almost permenant state of low vis which couple with shutting runways for de-icing had reduced the flow rate to 6 arrivals per hour at one point, this of course is nothing to do with the BAA but NATS and Euro control.

Topic: RE: Another 100 Flights Were Canceled At Egll On Sat
Username: kamilinlondon
Posted 2013-01-20 00:15:29 and read 4406 times.

Quoting braby (Reply 16):

Finally we have got someone that can give us hands on feedback. Thanks for that.

Regards Kamilinlondon.

Topic: RE: Another 100 Flights Were Canceled At Egll On Sat
Username: FCAFLYBOY
Posted 2013-01-20 00:42:48 and read 4236 times.

According to Sky News, at least a 20% scheduled chop for today too. I'm in east London and its starting to snow properly again and is expected to last 48 hours so it seems likely there will be more disruption.

Topic: RE: Another 100 Flights Were Canceled At Egll On Sat
Username: factsonly
Posted 2013-01-20 00:50:34 and read 4187 times.

Quoting braby (Reply 16):
The main problem this year though has been low vis, for the last two days LHR has been in an almost permenant state of low vis which couple with shutting runways for de-icing had reduced the flow rate to 6 arrivals per hour at one point, this of course is nothing to do with the BAA but NATS and Euro control.

I understand what you are trying to say, but this is not the right wording. NATS and EUROCONTROL are not responsible for Low Visibility, but they manage the aircraft flow rate in accordance with low vis separation requirements. So they are doing their job perfectly, just as BAA is doing its job under these difficult operating circumstances.

Topic: RE: Another 100 Flights Were Canceled At Egll On Sat
Username: TC957
Posted 2013-01-20 01:57:30 and read 3852 times.

It was reported on the BBC news that CDG was expecting to have around 40% of flights cancelled today to help with snow clearance, so it isn't only LHR you know.
LHR and especially LGW has got better and ( eventually ) learned from past snow cock-ups.
This I think will be as good as LHR/LGW will ever get owing to, as has already been pointed out, the very high % of capacity the airports are running at. Until more runways are built anyway.

Topic: RE: Another 100 Flights Were Canceled At Egll On Sat
Username: teme82
Posted 2013-01-20 06:06:15 and read 2640 times.

Perhaps BAA should learn from Finavia, the operator of HEL. How to cope with snow and two parallel runways  

Topic: RE: Another 100 Flights Were Canceled At Egll On Sat
Username: GCT64
Posted 2013-01-20 06:15:03 and read 2585 times.

Quoting teme82 (Reply 21):
Perhaps BAA should learn from Finavia, the operator of HEL. How to cope with snow and two parallel runways

HEL = 15M pax (2011)
LHR = 69M pax (2011)

Not really a sensible comparison despite the same number of parallel runways.
The London airports have done much better this year, I arrived ON TIME at LTN from EDI on Friday evening despite snow falling and snow on the ground. I was very impressed with the improvements there since previous seasons.

Topic: RE: Another 100 Flights Were Canceled At Egll On Sat
Username: david_itl
Posted 2013-01-20 06:22:39 and read 2518 times.

Comparison of average number of days with snow:

Helsinki: Nov 7 Dec 11 Jan 14 Feb 13 Mar 9
London: Nov 0 Dec 2 Jan 2 Feb 2 Mar 2

So I would be very surprised if Helsinki wasn't able to cope.

Topic: RE: Another 100 Flights Were Canceled At Egll On Sat
Username: thenoflyzone
Posted 2013-01-20 06:35:09 and read 2428 times.

Quoting teme82 (Reply 21):
Perhaps BAA should learn from Finavia, the operator of HEL. How to cope with snow and two parallel runways

Why would BAA even consult with Finavia?

HEL gets an average of 70 cm of snowfall every year. Hardly anything to brag about !

As i stated above (reply 7), BAA already consulted with airports that receive substantial amounts of snowfall per year, and that clearly isn't HEL. One such airport, YUL, receives on average 230cm + of snowfall every year, and it was consulted by BAA. So was ZRH and ORD, both of which receive more snowfall than HEL.

You no longer have to worry about BAA and LHR. As proven by the last few posts above, the situation there has improved considerably, and is now at par with most international airports.

Thenoflyzone

Topic: RE: Another 100 Flights Were Canceled At Egll On Sat
Username: YXwatcherMKE
Posted 2013-01-20 07:07:07 and read 2275 times.

So, 400 flights were canceled out of how many daily flights? Try have ORD or EWR or JKF and so on, shut down for more than 24 to 48 hours and cancelling over 1k flights? It happens here and it makes life crazy for the passengers and airlines employees trying to get the passengers re-booked to later flights. But we deal with it.

Topic: RE: Another 100 Flights Were Canceled At Egll On Sat
Username: david_itl
Posted 2013-01-20 11:02:12 and read 2031 times.

Handful of BA diversions this evening - one each to CWL, BRS and NCL. MAN had 2, GLA and LBA each had their shuttle return and DUS got their BA941 back after it made it to the North Sea.

1 VS flight went to LGW.

Topic: RE: Another 100 Flights Were Canceled At Egll On Sat
Username: traindoc
Posted 2013-01-21 06:57:14 and read 1463 times.

I flew into LHR on Friday and out on Sunday. Snowed both days and also very poor visibility all weekend. BAA did a very good job of keeping things running! I was there, unlike most of the critics of LHR and BAA in this thread and the other thread on the Snow in Europe.


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