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Topic: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-01-16 13:31:21 and read 14825 times.

If true, I applaud Delta. I have long been a proponent of revenue based earning scheme for loyalty programs.


Apparently there is a Delta memo floating around that highlights changes to the Skymiles program for 2014.

The program change to be rolled out by March 1st, would include the addition of a revenue component to achieving Medallion levels.

To be known as MQDs (Medallion Qualification Dollars), will be earned on spending on Delta and a few partner airlines.

Earning Medallion levels would require the traveller meet both the new MQD thresholds which reportedly maybe $2,500 for Silver, up to $12,500 for Platinum and achieving either the current existing miles or segment qualification thresholds.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2013-01-16 13:37:06 and read 14790 times.

Makes sense. Why give status to someone who is only doing mileage runs and paying deeply discounted fares? This should help improve margins for DL going forward. Much like when WN changed to a revenue-based model for Rapid Rewards, it was done to improve margins and reward those that spend the most with the airline.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: nwcoflyer
Posted 2013-01-16 13:43:07 and read 14699 times.

I agree. Many years ago before I worked at US- I had status with NW- most of it off cheap tickets. The upgrades were nice and the benefits were great- but in all honesty I did not give NW a good return on what they offered me.

I have long thought from a business sense, passengers should be rewarded based on dollars spent not miles flown. Many US pax who fly weekly from BUF to DCA may spend more in a year than someone flying LAX-PHL because of the way the markets are priced. The guy flying BUF to DCA will take forever to pick up silver while the guy doing LAX-PHL will pick up a lot faster, many times on lower yielding tickets.

Good luck to DL. Im sure many FF's will scream, but put your money where your mouth is. Many people who already are on the higher echelons of the elite programs probably wont be affected by this. I think it is the lower tiers that will get ticked off.

[Edited 2013-01-16 13:44:48]

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-01-16 13:46:57 and read 14635 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
The program change to be rolled out by March 1st, would include the addition of a revenue component to achieving Medallion levels.

According to what was posted, then pulled, from Delta's website, the revenue component would go into effect beginning 1/1/2014. Fare-based MQM postings would go into effect 3/1/2014. The revenue component may also be made with a $25K spend on an appropriate AMEX card.

More details about what had been posted is here: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta...ta-com-updates-details-inside.html

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: panamair
Posted 2013-01-16 13:57:24 and read 14479 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
new MQD thresholds which reportedly maybe $2,500 for Silver, up to $12,500 for Platinum

I believe the thresholds are something like:

$2500 for Silver (currently 25,000 MQMs)
$5000 for Gold (currently 50,000 MQMs)
$7500 for Platinum (currently 75,000 MQMs)
$12500 for Diamond (currently 125,000 MQMs)

which basically amounts to $0.10 per MQM.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: alitalia744
Posted 2013-01-16 14:10:23 and read 14318 times.

Should be able to change title from rumor to fact in a day or so.....

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: deltaffindfw
Posted 2013-01-16 14:15:45 and read 14285 times.

I don't see this as a huge issue. If you assume around $350/ticket (which for me is low), it's only 22 tickets/year for platinum or 35 for diamond. Most of those people will fly more than that, and probably pay more per ticket.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: TeamInTheSky
Posted 2013-01-16 14:36:56 and read 14126 times.

Hi All,

This type of change seems to have been swirling around for 2 years now in one form or another, so I am not particularly surprised. However, I am one of the people that it would presumably be the worst news to. I earn about 60k flying each year, but 80% of that is on leisure travel on cheaper fares. If I do spend 5K, it is just barely.

There are a couple of things I will be interested to see once everything is flushed out:

a) I actually live in the UK, and it seems non-US based flyers will not have to meet the MQD requirements. (for 2014 at least). So, will there be any changes that I face?

b) How does this work in conjunction with partners? Half of my travel a year is with AF/KL or other ST members. Will they credit MQD's for what I pay (if I were in the US)?

It will be interesting. I better enjoy my Gold Medallion now or at least find a job that will fly me more often if I hope to keep it.

Regards,

Team

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: mah4546
Posted 2013-01-16 14:36:58 and read 14127 times.

This isn't going to last if AA and UA don't follow suit. And with UA's merger issues and AA's BK, I doubt either will follow suit in the short term.

On one hand, sure, if AA and UA follow suit, what does it matter, because its not like customers have any choice.

On the other hand, AA and UA can use this to their huge advantage in a business travel market that remains cheap and continues to cut costs.

[Edited 2013-01-16 14:43:04]

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-01-16 15:04:50 and read 13901 times.

Quoting alitalia744 (Reply 5):
Should be able to change title from rumor to fact in a day or so.....

Glad to hear it.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 8):
On the other hand, AA and UA can use this to their huge advantage in a business travel market that remains cheap and continues to cut costs.

I'm not sure this a problem for the business travel market.
A single ticket alone can be in the thousands so folks are likely to meet the thresholds easily.
Anyhow corporate contracts also often come with automatic status, so I don't see DL pushing this traffic away.

Such a change is meant to police the lower end traveler, the leisure traveler that might do some longer trips to earn status but does so on el chepo fares. If the SWA experience is an example, the shift can encourage folks to purchase up, or jump through new hoops to attain or retain status with subsequent yield improvement for the airline.

Basically the concept is simple - the more $$$ you bring, the more valuable client you are. Seems very fair imo.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: BD338
Posted 2013-01-16 15:31:32 and read 13819 times.

I can see a near meltdown coming over on Flyertalk   but this is long overdue IMHO. Total revenue is a far better indicator of benefit to a company than the number of times a purchase occurs. The old loyalty programs have just about run their day, in todays environment of cheaper fares (compared to when the programs were originally launched) focusing on the true revenue generator seems to make a lot more sense.

How long until the requirement is pure revenue based AND awards are revenue based?

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: mah4546
Posted 2013-01-16 16:54:42 and read 13737 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
Quoting mah4546 (Reply 8):
On the other hand, AA and UA can use this to their huge advantage in a business travel market that remains cheap and continues to cut costs.

I'm not sure this a problem for the business travel market.
A single ticket alone can be in the thousands so folks are likely to meet the thresholds easily.
Anyhow corporate contracts also often come with automatic status, so I don't see DL pushing this traffic away.

I'm not talking about corporate contracts. I'm talking about the majority of businesses in this country, which don't book through a corporate travel office.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: ORDBOSEWR
Posted 2013-01-16 17:21:18 and read 13588 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
Anyhow corporate contracts also often come with automatic status, so I don't see DL pushing this traffic away.

I would question this as a fact. I work for a very large US company that has contracts with ALL of the US majors and many other majors throughout the world and only a select few get any benefits from our contract. All of my counterparts do not get any automatic benefits from the airlines. We have to earn it.
From our hotel partners we do get benefits from our corporate contracts

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
I'm not sure this a problem for the business travel market.

I will agree with this aspect. If the thresholds are as described above I would see this as an easy hurdle for the corporate folks.
I am a UA platinum traveler and would say that for me to get $12.5K would happen well before I hit the 75K miles requirement that exist for UA. Last year I spent over $40K for just about 80K in PQM.
Some of this is based on the markets and routes one flies, but it is only getting more expensive for a business traveler.
I really want to know who can get to silver without spending $2,500. That is such a small number.

I echo other comments that all of the boards for frequent fliers will explode with this news, but I feel this is not a big deal.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: ikramerica
Posted 2013-01-16 17:27:59 and read 13528 times.

Quoting panamair (Reply 4):
which basically amounts to $0.10 per MQM.

That's reasonable. I think it is easy to achieve on normal, discounted domestic travel. If you fly 25k miles a year domestically, even on deep discounts, that's easily $2500. Even at $400-500 R/T transcons, you should get there in dollars about the same time you get there with miles. If AMEX spends help, then a few thousand dollars a year make up the difference.

What it does is undercut those who earn status with a discounted long distance flight or two on a mileage partner airline. Those make DL no money and show no loyalty.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: tonytifao
Posted 2013-01-16 17:31:30 and read 13489 times.

Last year I spent about 8k and just made silver!  

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-01-16 17:55:10 and read 13355 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 11):
I'm not talking about corporate contracts. I'm talking about the majority of businesses in this country, which don't book through a corporate travel office.

Again, I fail to see this is much an issue for business travelers or any one that is somewhat a regular traveler.

Spending up to $2,500 could be accomplished in a matter of a handful of domestic Y class flights flights, and even a $12,500 spend could be had with a few longer premium trips.

I am sure DL has done some homework to identify the type of customer it can either churn out of Medallion status, or encourage them to meet the added revenue thresholds.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: questions
Posted 2013-01-16 17:55:56 and read 13356 times.

DL should dump the miles and segments requirement. The program should be based only on revenue spent.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: mah4546
Posted 2013-01-16 17:59:51 and read 13334 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 15):
Again, I fail to see this is much an issue for business travelers or any one that is somewhat a regular traveler.

Perception. DL does it, UA and AA don't (and likely won't in the near term).

That's a problem. A big problem.

Skymiles is already arguably the worst FF program in the industry, and this doesn't help.

[Edited 2013-01-16 18:00:40]

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: akelley728
Posted 2013-01-16 18:02:44 and read 13292 times.

Quoting deltaffindfw (Reply 6):
I don't see this as a huge issue. If you assume around $350/ticket (which for me is low), it's only 22 tickets/year for platinum or 35 for diamond. Most of those people will fly more than that, and probably pay more per ticket.

I agree totally. $0.10 per MQM is very doable even on leisure fares. For example, LGA-FLL is around $200 on Delta in February. Round trip is approximately 2000 miles. One would have to do 25 round-trips for 50,000 miles and $5000. If someone has frequent business in Florida and goes there every other week, it's done.

[Edited 2013-01-16 18:18:44]

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: Akiestar
Posted 2013-01-16 18:04:51 and read 13265 times.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 13):
What it does is undercut those who earn status with a discounted long distance flight or two on a mileage partner airline. Those make DL no money and show no loyalty.

Just because we non-U.S. based Medallions (like myself) can only afford to fly once or twice a year on discounted long-haul flights does not mean we are any less loyal to Delta than those who live in the United States and can afford to fly DL on full-fare tickets year-round. It isn't my fault, therefore, that I chose to go to Europe flying KLM instead of going to the U.S. flying Delta.

I actually want to see how DL intends to roll this out outside the United States, where it would be difficult to meet the new revenue requirements, especially when DL merely flies us either to Japan or the United States.

[Edited 2013-01-16 18:06:22]

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: ikramerica
Posted 2013-01-16 18:25:57 and read 13117 times.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 19):
Just because we non-U.S. based Medallions (like myself) can only afford to fly once or twice a year on discounted long-haul flights does not mean we are any less loyal to Delta than those who live in the United States and can afford to fly DL on full-fare tickets year-round. It isn't my fault, therefore, that I chose to go to Europe flying KLM instead of going to the U.S. flying Delta.

But you offer no value to DL. Sorry, but you don't.

And if you actually read what I wrote, I said flying on PARTNER airlines, not on DL. DL gets no money from these people, yet has to give them status?

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: questions
Posted 2013-01-16 18:31:06 and read 13061 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 17):
Skymiles is already arguably the worst FF program in the industry, and this doesn't help.

Or maybe it does. Observation 1: the 100% bonus for F/J. Observation 2: the structure is telling customers that DL is not interested in the low spend customer. DL's target customer is the high spend customer and they are tailoring SkyMiles to attract those customers. If I had a lot of money I'd prefer this over flying around with the upgraders and unattractive IT consultants.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: fanoftristars
Posted 2013-01-16 18:43:08 and read 12980 times.

Quoting panamair (Reply 4):

If these numbers are correct, then I think this is a great way to go. I spend we'll over the PM level, but I know there are many who don't but achieve PM status. If we can eliminate some of those who game the system and compete on dollars, then I think this would be ok. The thresholds seem low enough to be a reasonable shift.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: Akiestar
Posted 2013-01-16 18:51:18 and read 12939 times.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 20):
But you offer no value to DL. Sorry, but you don't.

And if you actually read what I wrote, I said flying on PARTNER airlines, not on DL. DL gets no money from these people, yet has to give them status?

Oh, I read that clearly, thanks.

I can concede to the argument if all your Skymiles members (and Medallions) are within the United States. I understand DL wanting to make status more meritocratic through introducing some sort of revenue requirement. But this smacks of the opposite: in effect, non-U.S. based Skymiles members who want to earn status will have to work much harder than the U.S.-based counterparts to earn status. That's unfair.

I've been loyal to DL for the last 13 years because I see the value in their program (aside from being grandfathered in when NW merged with DL), despite being convinced otherwise when I was still active on FlyerTalk. How is my loyalty any less valuable than yours, for example? Just because most of the people on this thread can afford to fly DL year-round and earn status in the process, we should antagonize frequent flyers who, by virtue of the random lottery of life, were born outside the United States, and by luck or circumstance, just happened to earn status by availing of the flights available to them? We shouldn't be penalized just because we decide to fly CZ, CI, KE, KL and the like, when DL only flies to Asia once or twice a day.

As far as I'm concerned, if this pushes through, especially outside the United States, there will be a lot of ill will in this part of the world. Low-yielding markets or not, DL gets a lot of traffic here, and I would presume we have a lot of FFs based in Asia (I know here we do, otherwise MNL wouldn't have a Sky Club). I hope they won't turn people off.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 17):
Perception. DL does it, UA and AA don't (and likely won't in the near term).

That's a problem. A big problem.

Skymiles is already arguably the worst FF program in the industry, and this doesn't help.

  

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: StuckInCA
Posted 2013-01-16 18:56:13 and read 12869 times.

Quoting tonytifao (Reply 14):

I'd guess (too lazy to look) that I spent between $8k and $10k last year with delta and have no status. I guess that won't change though.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: fanoftristars
Posted 2013-01-16 18:57:34 and read 13248 times.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 20):
And if you actually read what I wrote, I said flying on PARTNER airlines, not on DL. DL gets no money from these people, yet has to give them status?

Not so fast... Many of DL partners are also Joint Venture partners and they share risk/revenue on certain flights. For instance AF/KLM and Alitalia are essentially one airline across the Atlantic. So if I fly AF from JFK to CDG, DL is still earning revenue.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-01-16 19:05:38 and read 13100 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 8):
On the other hand, AA and UA can use this to their huge advantage in a business travel market that remains cheap and continues to cut costs.

That presumes that for business travelers, this will make it harder to get status. I don't know that that's true. In years in which I don't use DL for longhaul, my DL spend is usually between $3,000 and $5,000 and I'm typically between 10,000 and 15,000 miles. So for me, it's a net positive. If I was doing a lot of $450 BNA-SLC-LAX trips, I wouldn't be real happy. I don't know that it's possible to generalize.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 17):
Perception. DL does it, UA and AA don't (and likely won't in the near term).

That's a problem. A big problem.

How will it be perceived? Different isn't necessarily bad. A lot of folks I know who have WN status but fly legacies a lot (many if not most frequent business travelers in Nashville) prefer the WN system.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: UALFAson
Posted 2013-01-16 19:34:28 and read 12909 times.

I get the idea in theory, but they've set the dollar spend low enough relative to the miles required that it would be so difficult to hit one and not the other that it almost doesn't seem worth the administrative effort and the potential customer pushback.

Take cubsrule's example above. At $450 for a BNA-SLC-LAX roundtrip, 5 r/t's would cost you $2,250, or just short of the $2,500 threshhold. But at just under 2,000 miles each way or 4,000 r/t, you'd also still only be at ~20,000 miles, or one more r/t short of status anyway.

25,000 miles equates to 5 JFK-LAX roundtrips a year at just about 5,000 miles per r/t. How many people are going to do that but also happen to spend less than $500 on every single one of their tickets? And does Delta really want to tell those people thanks but no thanks anyway?

Let's say at the other extreme a person only does 2 or 3 international r/t per year. First of all, in order to fly long enough routes to achieve Silver status on miles alone, you're looking at pretty long flights that are probably going to cost more than $850-$1500 r/t anyway. Second, even if you do somehow achieve status under the old rules without the spend, you're only taking 2 flights a year anyway, so it's not like you're costing the company a ton of money in extra services provided.

This would have made more sense a few years ago when airlines were offering $99 coast-to-coast flights. Now it just seems like it won't really make much difference.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-01-16 19:46:47 and read 12725 times.

Quoting UALFAson (Reply 27):
I get the idea in theory, but they've set the dollar spend low enough relative to the miles required that it would be so difficult to hit one and not the other that it almost doesn't seem worth the administrative effort and the potential customer pushback.

You are half right, I think. There aren't too many folks who have status now who will not have status under the new system. But there seem to be a larger number of folks who will get status under the new system who don't have it now.

Last year was a very light year of DL travel for me. I had 7 segments (BNA-ATL-BNA booked in M, BNA-ATL-CAE booked in Y, ILM-ATL-BNA booked in something very cheap, MSP-BNA booked in B). I think that is only around 5,600 MQMs, but by my quick and dirty math I spent right around $2,500. It's a lot easier for someone like me to get status in a revenue-based system, but that's because my average fare class is pretty high and I fly a lot of higher-fare (i.e. short) routes.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: UALFAson
Posted 2013-01-16 19:53:53 and read 12623 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 28):
But there seem to be a larger number of folks who will get status under the new system who don't have it now.

Ah, good point! Thanks for the personal example. I didn't think of the other side of the coin.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2013-01-16 20:00:24 and read 12526 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 8):

This isn't going to last if AA and UA don't follow suit. And with UA's merger issues and AA's BK, I doubt either will follow suit in the short term.

On one hand, sure, if AA and UA follow suit, what does it matter, because its not like customers have any choice.

On the other hand, AA and UA can use this to their huge advantage in a business travel market that remains cheap and continues to cut costs.

UA has been looking at something like this for at least a couple of years. It won't take them long to follow. The biggest issue has been the first-mover thing, followed by technology. Most of these airlines actually don't have the sort of technology in place to move to a revenue-based system easily. So they have to build it. Its not cheap nor easy.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: akelley728
Posted 2013-01-16 20:19:45 and read 12362 times.

Let's clear up some misconceptions here....

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 19):

Just because we non-U.S. based Medallions (like myself) can only afford to fly once or twice a year on discounted long-haul flights does not mean we are any less loyal to Delta than those who live in the United States and can afford to fly DL on full-fare tickets year-round. It isn't my fault, therefore, that I chose to go to Europe flying KLM instead of going to the U.S. flying Delta.

I actually want to see how DL intends to roll this out outside the United States, where it would be difficult to meet the new revenue requirements, especially when DL merely flies us either to Japan or the United States.

The new Skymiles rules are for U.S. residents only. I hope that its because Delta realizes the challenges to fly only Delta metal for those who live outside the U.S., and not a "phase I / phase II" thing. Plus, I believe it has NOT been confirmed that flights on partners will not count towards the new revenue thresholds.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 28):
You are half right, I think. There aren't too many folks who have status now who will not have status under the new system. But there seem to be a larger number of folks who will get status under the new system who don't have it now.

Umm, you're half right as well  
You'll need to meet the milage AND revenue requirements. For Silver, you need 25,000 MQM as well as spend $2,500 MQD. So there will definitely be less people in the new system.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: Av8rDAL
Posted 2013-01-16 21:29:30 and read 11770 times.

Quoting akelley728 (Reply 31):
Umm, you're half right as well
You'll need to meet the milage AND revenue requirements. For Silver, you need 25,000 MQM as well as spend $2,500 MQD. So there will definitely be less people in the new system.

Silver is essentially worthless anyway, aside for being called a Silver Medallion. Your best shot at upgrades is on empty flights on off-peak times, and the rest of the benefits you can almost cover just by having an AMEX Skymiles Gold Card. Add a few perks to the Silver level, and this may encourage more people to spend AND accrue MQMs.

As for myself, I'm a "retiring" Gold Medallion, downgrading to Silver this year due to job change and less travel. Corporate travel policy dictates "lowest fare possible" regardless of layovers, so I've been accumulating on United, Delta, and Southwest lately.

I believe this is ultimately a short term wise move for DL, as long as they do not alienate too many current elites who fly exclusively on discounted fares on saturated, competitive routes. The dollar threshold will be a very sensitive variable.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: PlaneInsomniac
Posted 2013-01-17 02:44:03 and read 10845 times.

Does anybody know whether "revenue" will includes taxes and fees, or will it only be based on the net fares? Will the bonus factors for existing elite (e.g., additional 50%) also apply to the credited revenue? I assume flights on AF and KL will likely count for the revenue minimum?

Thanks!

Quoting akelley728 (Reply 31):
The new Skymiles rules are for U.S. residents only.

I don't quite understand. Does this mean for non-U.S. members, the old rules will remain in place unchanged?

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: Akiestar
Posted 2013-01-17 02:51:04 and read 10835 times.

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 33):
I don't quite understand. Does this mean for non-U.S. members, the old rules will remain in place unchanged?

Apparently so (and what a relief, too!), but with DL scrubbing all details of the 2013 rule changes from their website according to people down at FlyerTalk, I wonder if this will continue to be the case.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: PI4EVER
Posted 2013-01-17 04:25:56 and read 10358 times.

As akelley728 pointed out, I understand you still must reach the MQM levels PLUS revenue $ to attain status. You can't buy 2 roundtrip tickets to Europe at $1250 each, accrue about 10K miles per roundtrip and be a Silver.
So the business travelers will likely continue to be OK unless they are affected by a corporate policy of buying "low fare" tickets only and they can't fly DL by price.
After 128K miles/98 segments in 2012 I made Diamond this year. I look forward to enjoying the perks, but I am curtailing a lot of business travel this year, and I will be lucky to hit Gold for next year......by miles flown or money spent.
And don't forget. DL makes a TON OF REVENUE on selling MQM's every November and December to Medallions who are running "short" to keep or bump up to next level of status, so revenue in any form, coupled with flying spells success for DL and I think they're gutsy enough to be the first to put this miles and revenue program into play.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-01-17 04:46:23 and read 10204 times.

Quoting akelley728 (Reply 31):
You'll need to meet the milage AND revenue requirements.

Then I guess I don't understand the point. These days, it's pretty hard to spend less than 10 cents a mile.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-17 05:05:36 and read 10094 times.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 23):
How is my loyalty any less valuable than yours, for example?

Here's the deal, Delta is a business, they are here to make money. Therefore if your loyalty doesn't make them the same amount of money then another person then that other persons loyality is more valuable. If DL recieves money from codeshares then Delta should credit you for the part of the ticket that they receive otherwise you are no value to Delta when you fly on that flight.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: 0NEWAIR0
Posted 2013-01-17 05:46:30 and read 9751 times.

I'm fairly certain this, very welcomed, change will not affect the majority of frequent flyers because the MQD values are so low. I did the math on the routes I fly and I meet the new "MQD" thresholds farily quickly but I still need double or triple the number of trips (depending on the the price and length of the flights I used for the calculation) to meet either the existing MQS threshold or the existing MQM threshold.

[Edited 2013-01-17 06:27:06]

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: Akiestar
Posted 2013-01-17 06:11:56 and read 9588 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 37):
Here's the deal, Delta is a business, they are here to make money. Therefore if your loyalty doesn't make them the same amount of money then another person then that other persons loyality is more valuable. If DL recieves money from codeshares then Delta should credit you for the part of the ticket that they receive otherwise you are no value to Delta when you fly on that flight.

How do you build loyalty by gutting people from the program, and in the words of someone down at FlyerTalk, giving a big F-U to lower-tier elites?

DL is lucky that they can buy my loyalty for so cheap. I appreciate the free bag, the use of Sky Priority on partner airlines, the 25% Silver Medallion mileage bonus and priority boarding. Aside from the free bag and probably the free bonus miles, I don't think keeping FOs happy really makes such a big dent on DL's bottom line. And for that, I am happy and content: heck, I could care less about lounges and upgrades, but getting me on the plane first is a big deal! And I don't think that costs DL a penny.

On the other hand, it costs DL much more to maintain the perks given to elites on higher tiers. Lounges, upgrades, SWUs, generous doleouts of miles and the like will certainly cost DL more than the chump change they currently give FOs like myself. If they want to thin the ranks, fine, but at least do it in a manner wherein there are still meaningful avenues for people to reasonably build up loyalty. Our butts fill DL's seats too, you know, and I certainly don't think DL wants those seats to go empty. "Disavowed" elites might as well do that if DL essentially says that "hey, we could care less about your loyalty", and go about just buying tickets on price and convenience alone.

Anyway, DL has finally spoken, officially: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta...edallion-qualification-update.html

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-01-17 06:17:20 and read 9527 times.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 39):
How do you build loyalty by gutting people from the program, and in the words of someone down at FlyerTalk, giving a big F-U to lower-tier elites?

DL is interested in money, not loyalty. That's why they have the credit card qualification avenues they do. The easy way to not "give a big F-U to lower level elites" is to make the ranks of lower level elites smaller, and the easy way to do that (while still rewarding loyalty) is to make people fly all of their MQMs.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: Akiestar
Posted 2013-01-17 06:25:23 and read 9449 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 40):
DL is interested in money, not loyalty.

Revenue begets loyalty. If people feel that DL doesn't value them, then what's the point of flying DL? Either way, DL risks flying those seats empty, which I don't think it wants.

As far as I know, DL is essentially gambling that these seats will not go empty regardless of the changes. But what happens if they do?

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 40):
the easy way to do that (while still rewarding loyalty) is to make people fly all of their MQMs.

I flew every single MQM I earned on DL and partners. So does that make me less valuable, therefore?

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: rwsea
Posted 2013-01-17 06:26:44 and read 9440 times.

For the majority of DELTA flyers, this probably won't have much impact. However, it will probably have an impact on the following:

- "mileage runners" who buy very cheap fares with the purpose of getting elite status
- Skymiles members who earn their elite status by flying mostly on partner airlines (AS, etc.). I would imagine however that JV partners AF/KL/AZ and KE would be included since they are revenue neutral across the respective ocean and tracking connecting flights in Europe, etc. separately would be too cumbersome

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: BD338
Posted 2013-01-17 06:29:50 and read 9411 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 26):
my DL spend is usually between $3,000 and $5,000 and I'm typically between 10,000 and 15,000 miles. So for me, it's a net positive

[quote=Cubsrule,reply=28]I had 7 segments (BNA-ATL-BNA booked in M, BNA-ATL-CAE booked in Y, ILM-ATL-BNA booked in something very cheap, MSP-BNA booked in B). I think that is only around 5,600 MQMs, but by my quick and dirty math I spent right around $2,500. It's a lot easier for someone like me to get status in a revenue-based system, but that's because my average fare class is pretty high and I fly a lot of higher-fare (i.e. short) routes.


Under the new system you still wouldn't have any status. The requirement is $2500 AND 25,000 miles for Silver, and so on for the other tiers.

Delta has now posted the new program on delta.com starts Jan 1 ,2014

http://www.delta.com/content/www/en_...out-skymiles/news-and-updates.html

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-01-17 06:31:00 and read 9388 times.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 41):
I flew every single MQM I earned on DL and partners. So does that make me less valuable, therefore?

To DL, it does. (I'm not saying that choice is right or wrong, but it's different from how things were, say, a decade ago.)

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 41):
Revenue begets loyalty. If people feel that DL doesn't value them, then what's the point of flying DL?

There isn't one unless DL has the best schedule. I think this is the source of Delta's worse than hoped results in some of the so-called "S-curve markets." I don't go out of my way to fly Delta. I don't know why I would.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: Akiestar
Posted 2013-01-17 06:33:29 and read 9395 times.

Quoting rwsea (Reply 42):
- Skymiles members who earn their elite status by flying mostly on partner airlines (AS, etc.). I would imagine however that JV partners AF/KL/AZ and KE would be included since they are revenue neutral across the respective ocean and tracking connecting flights in Europe, etc. separately would be too cumbersome

According to DL, partner flights are not included unless they are booked on DL stock. To quote:

Quote:
MQDs are the total of the SkyMiles member’s spend on Delta-marketed flights (flight numbers that include the “DL” airline code), inclusive of the base fare and applicable surcharges, but exclusive of government- imposed taxes and fees.

Flight spend for travel on other airlines ticketed through a Delta channel (featuring a ticket number beginning with “006”) will also be included in MQDs.
http://www.delta.com/content/www/en_...on-qualification-dollars-faqs.html

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: RamblinMan
Posted 2013-01-17 06:51:00 and read 9209 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 17):

Perception. DL does it, UA and AA don't (and likely won't in the near term).
That's a problem. A big problem.
Skymiles is already arguably the worst FF program in the industry, and this doesn't help.

Or if it significantly pares down the ranks of elites, thereby increasing the upgrade chances for those who remain, along with other small changes like the 100% bonus for premium cabins, I can see this possibly turning SkyMiles into the BEST program in the industry.

Not that I'm happy about it...I'll be one of the ones squeezed out. But DL doesn't survive on customers like me, and I readily admit that.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 19):
Just because we non-U.S. based Medallions (like myself) can only afford to fly once or twice a year on discounted long-haul flights does not mean we are any less loyal to Delta than those who live in the United States and can afford to fly DL on full-fare tickets year-round.

Unfortunately your loyalty does not make the company money. This is a business.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: Akiestar
Posted 2013-01-17 07:14:31 and read 9039 times.

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 46):
Unfortunately your loyalty does not make the company money. This is a business.

The money spent on me flying DL is still money that goes to DL's pockets, so I don't buy the argument that they don't make any money from lower-tier elites and ordinary people. I may be low-yielding, yes, but low-yielding is still better for DL's bottom line than no yield at all.

At any rate, thank goodness I live outside the United States, and I am unaffected by all these program changes. But this will not bide well for U.S.-based elites no matter how palliative DL tries to make it.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: rwsea
Posted 2013-01-17 07:17:43 and read 9036 times.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 45):
According to DL, partner flights are not included unless they are booked on DL stock. To quote:

Interesting. I'm curious how this will work then in the case that I fly PDX-AMS-DEL and return, for example. Half of the itinerary is on DL and the other half on KL.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: panamair
Posted 2013-01-17 07:24:40 and read 8985 times.

Quoting rwsea (Reply 48):
Interesting. I'm curious how this will work then in the case that I fly PDX-AMS-DEL and return, for example. Half of the itinerary is on DL and the other half on KL.

If the ticket is all on DL stock (ticket stock starting with 006), then you're OK. Or, if the entire itinerary is on the DL code, including the AMS-DEL portion, then you're also OK.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: luv2fly
Posted 2013-01-17 07:38:13 and read 8833 times.

I think it is a good idea, DL is finally recognizing its loyal customers and rewarding them. It is about time someone had the balls to do it.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: MSPNWA
Posted 2013-01-17 07:43:09 and read 8803 times.

I'd say if there's one thing that wasn't changed, it's the fact that SkyMiles, like most FF systems, are still a bundle of confusion. I'll stick to my WN rebate program. That way I can book without spending hours on fare class and mileage optimization.

But after looking through a lot of thoughts on it, it seems like two type of people will be affected (U.S. flyers here). First is the mileage runner/cheap fare flyer that made 25,000 without spending $2,500. That customer is still valuable to DL (DL wouldn't sell those tickets if they weren't valuable to them), but to a low extent compared to others. The second is the high-yield, low-mileage traveler like Cubsrule. And it's this the group I don't understand why DL would want to shun. Making it a revenue system and making an "and" system doesn't reward the high-yield customers as much as it hurts the low-yielding kind. So overall I can see a few less elites under the new plan and a some dropping down a tier. I also see less need to be loyal to DL if you're going to lose out. Interesting plan.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: rivervisual
Posted 2013-01-17 07:56:00 and read 8653 times.

Any airline's BEST customers are those who fly a lot of miles AND buy higher yield tickets. Ulitmately, the mileage runner who buys cheap transcons doesnt have much value to an airline's FF program. Remember, its just as likely that those seats would be sold to a once a year flyer who may not even be part of the FF program. Similarly, someone who flies twice a year and earns 25000 miles (for US based fliers) isn't the ideal High Value Customer.

DL and most other legacy airlines are shifting towards the High Value Customer concept and that means rewarding those who spend the most and fly the most with the best benefits. Frequent flyers who don't spend a lot wont lose all status, they just won't be able to earn the top levels without spending more money. In the end it is a business and an airline wants to give its perks to those who generate the most revenue.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: dirtyfrankd
Posted 2013-01-17 08:09:58 and read 8524 times.

Quoting panamair (Reply 4):
I believe the thresholds are something like:

$2500 for Silver (currently 25,000 MQMs)
$5000 for Gold (currently 50,000 MQMs)
$7500 for Platinum (currently 75,000 MQMs)
$12500 for Diamond (currently 125,000 MQMs)

which basically amounts to $0.10 per MQM.

God I hope those numbers are accurate!! I would be able to qualify for Diamond within 4-5 months at that price!!

I hope AA switches to a similar system, would make it so much easier for me to re-qualify for Exec Plat every year.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-01-17 08:10:06 and read 8513 times.

Quoting rivervisual (Reply 52):
In the end it is a business and an airline wants to give its perks to those who generate the most revenue.

But as we've discussed, this program does not reward those who generate the most revenue. WN does.

Quoting rivervisual (Reply 52):
Similarly, someone who flies twice a year and earns 25000 miles (for US based fliers) isn't the ideal High Value Customer.

Depends on the fare class, no? If it's two full fare J tickets to Asia, I think I'd probably want to keep that person in the fold. A lot of us don't do too many longhauls but do do them regularly (we have continual, not continuous, longhauls).

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: WA707atMSP
Posted 2013-01-17 08:24:35 and read 8399 times.

Quoting rivervisual (Reply 52):
Any airline's BEST customers are those who fly a lot of miles AND buy higher yield tickets. Ulitmately, the mileage runner who buys cheap transcons doesnt have much value to an airline's FF program.

And, neither does the occasional flyer who has to buy expensive tickets out of necessity.

I have the misfortune to live in one DL fortress hub city (MSP), with my parents in another DL fortress (DTW). Even at non-holiday periods, DL charges at least $400 round trip between MSP and DTW, and for peak holiday travel days, the fares can be close to $600.

If I fly DL 4x year MSP-DTW-MSP at an average fare of $450 round trip, I would pay $1,800 in airfare, but earn just 4,224 SkyMiles. If DL switched to a purely $$ based elite qualification system, I'd qualify for silver if I took four trips to DTW and two trips from MSP to the west coast at $350 round trip each.

Although I'd really appreciate being an elite, Elite status is not meant for travellers who take just one short / mid haul domestic trip every other month, and that's why I think DL should use both mileage and fare to determine elite status.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-01-17 08:38:30 and read 8334 times.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 55):
Although I'd really appreciate being an elite, Elite status is not meant for travellers who take just one short / mid haul domestic trip every other month, and that's why I think DL should use both mileage and fare to determine elite status.

Part of the problem at DL - and the reason that WN's system works so well - is that fares don't necessarily correlate with trip length on DL. On WN in the same class of service, BNA-JAX is going to cost much less than BNA-LAX. But if we were to compare, say, BNA-CLT with BNA-LAX on DL, that's not necessarily true.

So while we say that WN is "revenue based," because revenue and miles flown are more closely tied at WN, WN actually rewards both as well as rewarding elites and those who buy higher fare class tickets. For DL to go to a 'true' revenue-based system and have it work, they'd have to stop doing things like charging $1,200 for a refundable MEM-ORD roundtrip.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: globalflyer
Posted 2013-01-17 09:29:46 and read 8015 times.

Will this apply only for flights on DL metal or for all of SkyTeam flights? FOr example if I fly KE from JFK-ICN-BKK in JCL and it is booked on the KE code will I qualify for MQD's in the SkyMiles programme or not?

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: panamair
Posted 2013-01-17 09:48:40 and read 7894 times.

Quoting globalflyer (Reply 57):
FOr example if I fly KE from JFK-ICN-BKK in JCL and it is booked on the KE code will I qualify for MQD's in the SkyMiles programme or not?

No, unless your KE-marketed/coded/operated flights are ticketed on Delta ticket stock (i.e., your ticket begins with "006").

The other way to get MQDs for such an itinerary would be to book the itinerary on the DL code instead (even though it's all operated by KE).

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: globalflyer
Posted 2013-01-17 09:56:59 and read 7819 times.

Thanks panamair.. I figured as much but appreciate your feedback. Totally makes sense since the $$$ would all go to DL on the DL code or codeshare.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: PI4EVER
Posted 2013-01-17 10:09:56 and read 7781 times.

Quoting dirtyfrankd (Reply 53):

Read the details. You must accrue the MQM's, or MQS's *AND* the money minimum $12,500 to qualify for Diamond. And it damn sure is likely that if you fly 125,000 MQM's, or 140 flight segments, you will have spent a heck of a lot more than $12,500 in ticket costs. A segment is one takeoff and landing, and qualifying miles are miles flown so they're not giving you status at a less accrual rate today......they're simply adding the revenue component to the existing program.
The exemption to the money qualification is that AMEX users will have the money waived if they spend $25K during the year; they now otherwise receive 10K MQM's when that spending threshold has been reached each year, and 20K in MQM's if you charge $50K with the AMEX Reserve card.
So, if you're not going to fly a significantly larger amount on DL to qualify by miles or segments, you're not going to get a status boost from just increased spending on DL tickets.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: delta2ual
Posted 2013-01-17 10:14:19 and read 7710 times.

I wish all airlines would do this. I remember when WN rolled out their new program, many people didn't like it. I think the people who spend the most should be rewarded. It will be better for these high spenders too; hopefully it will curtail flights with 24 First Class seats and 60 on the upgrade list. I'm not sure how many people who truly travel a lot for business will be affected. I mean, I would think they are already spending thousands per year on travel so they should be fine.
I'm sure UA and AA will do something similar, at least I hope. Otherwise DL will probably reverse its decision.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-01-17 10:22:09 and read 7643 times.

Reading these MQD requirements, I sure hope we see fewer and fewer people claim that flights under JVs are "metal neutral". Here's another example that that's simply an a.net myth.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-01-17 10:24:48 and read 7642 times.

Quoting PI4EVER (Reply 60):
And it damn sure is likely that if you fly 125,000 MQM's, or 140 flight segments, you will have spent a heck of a lot more than $12,500 in ticket costs.
Quoting delta2ual (Reply 61):
I mean, I would think they are already spending thousands per year on travel so they should be fine.

  

If anyone travels with any decent frequency to earn these high mileage totals, odds are they likely have spent quite a bit on the airline already.

These added qualification will likely churn out the uber discount traveler that finds the $500 sale Europe ticket, or uses the $249 transcon fares to rack up miles. Yes 5 transons would get you 25,000 miles, but that client might barely spend $1,200 on DL.

Over time, I actually hope Delta and others further expand on this, and make spending the primary consideration for earning of both miles/points and status.
I think programs like SWA, JetBlue, Virgin America and some foreign ones that look at spending are much more better aligned to identify customer value to the enterprise the same manner tons of industries outside airlines also look at spending as the key measure in their loyalty programs.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: redzeppelin
Posted 2013-01-17 11:38:17 and read 7161 times.

This really adds a new perspective to MQM rollovers. I earned Gold for 2013 partially due to the fact that I started 2012 with a big pile of rollover miles. I'd have to go back and look at my receipts, but I may have spent less than $5k last year. So under the new system, I would have been only silver for 2013, but would have had more than 30k miles to roll into 2014 qualification. But those rollover miles wouldn't mean a thing unless I spent at least $2500 in 2013. So this really kills the easy elite qualifications that people have been getting the past few years with rollovers. It should appease a lot of the complaints you read over on FT about the recent dilution of upper elite ranks. But it also makes me less interested in keeping all my miles on DL. For the past efw years I've been very loyal to DL, primarily because I was excited about the concept that my excess MQMs wouldn't disappear. But rollover miles are less valuable now. As pointed out by earlier posters, it's actually hard not to hit the dollar figures when you fly the miles. But if you are relying on the rollover miles to make status, you get can get killed by the dollar requirement.

DL will have tons of Silvers with over 25k and even 50k rollover miles in 2015, and all of those fliers would have been Gold or Platinum in the current system.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: flflyer
Posted 2013-01-17 12:12:10 and read 6927 times.

What impact (if any) will this have on lifetime gold members-2mm ?

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: redzeppelin
Posted 2013-01-17 12:20:37 and read 6889 times.

Quoting flflyer (Reply 66):

That was mentioned in the FAQs on delta.com. Million milers with lifetime status keep that status. But if they are trying to qualify for a higher level, they are under the same requirements as everyone else. It also said that million milers (like everyone else, it seems) must spend at least $2500/year to keep their rollover miles active. So a lifetime gold can't fly 15k miles per year for 5 years and suddenly qualify for platinum for a year due to the accumulated rollover miles.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: mah4546
Posted 2013-01-17 12:22:51 and read 6932 times.

Today AA started status matching top-tier Delta DMs to EXP. No flying requirement needed - straight up status match.

Not a coincidence, and a strong indiciation that other airlines are going to exploit Delta's blunder, not follow.

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 46):
Or if it significantly pares down the ranks of elites, thereby increasing the upgrade chances for those who remain, along with other small changes like the 100% bonus for premium cabins, I can see this possibly turning SkyMiles into the BEST program in the industry.

I don't for on second believe this will pare down the ranks of elites. Sorry, but despite perception one might get from reading FlyerTalk, "mileage runners" aren't a significant part of the FF base.

Essentially you are paring down a small percentage of the FF base, while giving the entire base a perception that they aren't valued unless they spend certain amounts. But the real problem is this: even if most people make that pay amount regardless, when deciding loyalty, why go loyal with the carrier that adds that restriction, when you don't have to worry about elsewhere? Sure, I might be "positive" I'm going to spend $5,000 and fly 50,000 miles in January, but if come December I only spent $4,400, I sure will be glad I didn't have to worry about a spend requirement. Which, by the way, excludes partner airlines and excludes taxes (a big deal for international tickets, especially tax loving Europe).

And this doesn't solve the fact that SkyMiles are virtually useless for reward availability at reasonable redemption rates, or that Delta has ludicrous ristrictions on upgrade awards/coupons.

[Edited 2013-01-17 12:29:32]

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-01-17 12:52:15 and read 6679 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 68):
I don't for on second believe this will pare down the ranks of elites. Sorry, but despite perception one might get from reading FlyerTalk, "mileage runners" aren't a significant part of the FF base.

No, it won't, and that's the problem. All it does is hurt passengers' perceptions of Delta. A truly revenue-based program would be smart and, I think, welcomed. This isn't that.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: alitalia744
Posted 2013-01-17 13:00:45 and read 6632 times.

Talk about dipping one toe in. Either DL should go all revenue based or not. The revenue and mileage correlation doesn't add up as one can spend $12,500 running back and forth to EU on 400r/t fares...

That said, the biggest issue I see with the new program as someone who flies DL is the M fare MQM reduction and the inability to count JV ticketed flights as MQDs moving forward....

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: lhcvg
Posted 2013-01-17 13:08:20 and read 6568 times.

Quoting nwcoflyer (Reply 2):
Good luck to DL. Im sure many FF's will scream, but put your money where your mouth is. Many people who already are on the higher echelons of the elite programs probably wont be affected by this. I think it is the lower tiers that will get ticked off.

And in truth, the amount of flying to make that monetary threshold really IS minimal if you do ANY amount of flying more than a handful of times a year. I usually fly around 5x a year, with tix around $400 a pop for discount fares, so throw in a couple junk trips to FL or another trip in that range and I'd be right at $2500 or so spend. Granted that wouldn't get me anywhere near elite status, but that money adds up quickly.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: Josh32121
Posted 2013-01-17 14:16:23 and read 6318 times.

I really don't understand all of the jumping to conclusions about these changes as nearly none of them go into effect until January 2014, which will affect Medallion status in 2015. That's a long way off, and this program has been officially announced for less than a day. As regular business travelers now know about these new requirements, I think most of them will pay a little more attention to how much their tickets cost this year. Most of them will probably realize they'll be unaffected and not worry about it at all. Others (like myself) who fly a couple of transcontinental roundtrips and maybe one transoceanic roundtrip each year and make Silver or possibly Gold with those miles will look a little harder. Either they'll decide they don't want to spend any more and will drop down to Silver or out of the Medallion ranks altogether, or they'll decide to spend a little more to make the revenue threshold. Either way, Delta wins. They have either eliminated a non-moneymaking (however loyal in their heart) customer from unwarranted elite status, or they have eked out a little more revenue to justify their elite status.

I think in time we should expect to see these dollar thresholds increased and perhaps the mileage and segment requirements eliminated altogether. I could also see an offer where you spend maybe $2,500 and fly 25k MQM's or spend $10k and fly 10k MQM's to make silver. Or $15k and no MQM requirement.

I have a friend who regularly flew ATL-DUS-ZRH or ATL-MUC-ZRH in J paying about $10k each roundtrip. I know that trip sure as hell made Delta a lot more money than the other friends who fly ATL-SFO about every other month on $250 excursion fares leaving on a Tuesday and returning on a Saturday. In that scenario, the ATL-SFO'ers spent a sixth as much and qualified as Silver Medallions. The ATL-ZRH'er made Delta a lot more revenue and a lot more profit, but the he gets no Medallion status. That fails to reward your more profitable passengers, which is the entire point of any loyalty program. These changes aim to weed out anomalies like the situations above.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: UALFAson
Posted 2013-01-17 14:35:42 and read 6279 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 63):
These added qualification will likely churn out the uber discount traveler that finds the $500 sale Europe ticket, or uses the $249 transcon fares to rack up miles.
Quoting alitalia744 (Reply 70):
The revenue and mileage correlation doesn't add up as one can spend $12,500 running back and forth to EU on 400r/t fares...

Yeah, but who pays fares like this anymore? On a regular basis? How many people regularly fly roundtrip coast-to-coast for $249 anymore or U.S. to Europe for $400? Those prices are pretty low even for sale fares.

Like I said earlier, this would have made more sense years ago in the days of $99 one-way U.S. coast-to-coast fares, but it's a moot point now. The only people this is going to affect are those people who nickel-and-dime their way to barely making Silver status, but to do that, they're probably concentrating all their travel on DL anyway and taking multiple flights all year long, so do you really want to tell them that loyalty, small as it is, isn't valued? The negative PR this is going to generate and the administrative and logisitc questions and issues can't possibly be worth trying to save a few $$$ in perks to those nickel-and-dimers.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: dcann40
Posted 2013-01-17 14:44:42 and read 6237 times.

Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 72):
I have a friend who regularly flew ATL-DUS-ZRH or ATL-MUC-ZRH in J paying about $10k each roundtrip.

If someone regularly flies that trip, there's no way he wouldn't have Medallion status. He'd practically be silver in slightl over two trips.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: mah4546
Posted 2013-01-17 15:23:25 and read 6199 times.

Quoting UALFAson (Reply 73):
Yeah, but who pays fares like this anymore? On a regular basis? How many people regularly fly roundtrip coast-to-coast for $249 anymore or U.S. to Europe for $400? Those prices are pretty low even for sale fares.

$400 round-trip to Europe before taxes isn't rare. And, remember, the elite qualifying dollar amounts are pre-tax on Delta.

Quoting UALFAson (Reply 73):
The negative PR this is going to generate and the administrative and logisitc questions and issues can't possibly be worth trying to save a few $$$ in perks to those nickel-and-dimers.

Bingo.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: SonomaFlyer
Posted 2013-01-17 15:29:49 and read 6160 times.

I never understood the airlines' decision to base status on miles/segments and NOT on revenue. If you truly want to reward those folks who are helping you make money, tier it by revenue. That separates the wheat from the chaff and rewards only those who are pumping the most into your airline.

DL has led the industry in a number of ways lately - especially in their labor relations. This is likely something UA, AA and the others will emulate before long.

Over rewarding frequent fliers cuts down on revenue generation for biz and first class. Its one factor in airlines cutting down the number of first class seats. Perhaps the majors will follow the lead of Virgin America and offer discounted upgrades from E+ etc to J from a period say between 24 and 6 hours before departure. The seats left could then be "given" away to the frequent fliers. More revenue generation potential for the airline.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-01-17 15:49:51 and read 6125 times.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 76):
I never understood the airlines' decision to base status on miles/segments and NOT on revenue.

Airlines never really thought people would game the system to the degree that they do with mileage runs to earn status. Even Crandall admitted he made a huge mistake pricing the lifetime AAirpass at $250,000 when it first came out. He thought they'd sell a few to companies for their CEOs, etc., but later admitted that "the public outsmarted us."

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: redzeppelin
Posted 2013-01-17 16:01:51 and read 6098 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 75):
$400 round-trip to Europe before taxes isn't rare. And, remember, the elite qualifying dollar amounts are pre-tax on Delta.

Those $400 fares always include a big "taxes and fees component." When you look closely at the fees, there is always a big fuel surcharge included. That surcharge is counted toward qualification. Only the government-imposed taxes are not.

For example, I just did a dummy booking for BZN-CPH in February. It returns a base fare of $299.40 and taxes/fees of $625.20 for a total cost of $924.60 (a very good deal for BZN, btw). On closer examination, $516 of the taxes/fees is a "carrier-imposed international surcharge." I'm not completely sure about how the math works on all of the other fees, but it seems that well over $800 of the fare would count for qualification. The itinerary also counts for 11,080 MQMs via MSP and AMS (could get more MQMs for similar fare via other hubs). So this particular fare earns proportionately fewer dollars than miles to count toward qualification, but it's not as lopsided as if only the $299 base fare was counted.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2013-01-17 20:48:39 and read 5793 times.

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 61):

I wish all airlines would do this. I remember when WN rolled out their new program, many people didn't like it. I think the people who spend the most should be rewarded. It will be better for these high spenders too; hopefully it will curtail flights with 24 First Class seats and 60 on the upgrade list. I'm not sure how many people who truly travel a lot for business will be affected. I mean, I would think they are already spending thousands per year on travel so they should be fine.
I'm sure UA and AA will do something similar, at least I hope. Otherwise DL will probably reverse its decision.

I really like WN's RR 2.0 vs. the original RR. When I have a chance to talk to people about it, I explain it this way. In the old system you needed 16 one ways to get a free round trip. That standard award could be used on any route, subject to availability. So after X number of rewards are claimed on that flight, its done and no more. The new system being all points allows you to redeem based on the air fare itself. So in the absolute best care scenario now you could actually get a round trip flight for just under 8300 points during those $69 fare sales that happen a few times a year. So that's a free round trip after spending less than $1400 on air fare...which can break down to just a couple transcons/business select flights. Of course you can rack up the points faster with the credit card and such, but that's just a quick example when it comes to flying. The other nice thing they don't expire and there aren't any blackouts. If the fare is available and you have the points, you can buy it.

If DL is smart they'll push through and go all the way and enjoy the increased revenue that will come from a smarter program. The days of rewarding mile runners that don't contribute much to the bottom line must end.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: questions
Posted 2013-01-17 21:03:05 and read 5754 times.

Quoting questions (Reply 16):
DL should dump the miles and segments requirement. The program should be based only on revenue spent.
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 69):
A truly revenue-based program would be smart and, I think, welcomed.
Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 76):
If you truly want to reward those folks who are helping you make money, tier it by revenue.

I agree.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: TeamInTheSky
Posted 2013-01-18 02:33:29 and read 5637 times.

Hi All,

After a night to sleep on it, I am most flabbergasted by how they cut their international partners. As a fan of SkyTeam in general, they have absolutely gutted their partners outside of AM, AF, and KL. I live in the UK (and it must be recognized as such because I have not received an email regarding the plan update), and I was looking forward to flying UX to Madrid, RO to Bucharest, and KE to Seoul this year. It seems that now those trips will all be booked on AF or KL so I can ensure that I get 100% MQM.

And while from a financial standpoint, I completely understand the MQD and it won't even affect me (as of now) since I live in the UK, I still feel a sense of betrayal. While I understand some (and certainly on FT) like to boast about how much you spend with Delta, typically that person don't spend a dime or very little of their own money. Their employer does and gets to take the deduction on its tax return. However, I have made Silver and now Gold off of my own dime, meticulously spending time ensuring that I was on flights that qualified. While my spend is probably around 5k anyway, it still says to me that you only value business customers.



Quoting mah4546 (Reply 68):
Today AA started status matching top-tier Delta DMs to EXP. No flying requirement needed - straight up status match.

Not a coincidence, and a strong indiciation that other airlines are going to exploit Delta's blunder, not follow.

Do you have details? While it pains me to leave DL, I quite like BA and it is much easier from LHR. I will also enjoy trying out CX and other oneworld airlines. Again, sad to consider leaving SkyTeam, but I am afraid with DL's disrespect to the rest of the alliance, it might be time to go.

Regards,

Team

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: dcann40
Posted 2013-01-18 06:41:04 and read 5473 times.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 76):
I never understood the airlines' decision to base status on miles/segments and NOT on revenue.

It's simple: when the programs started, there wasn't as much discounting. A lot has changed since then.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: Josh32121
Posted 2013-01-18 06:52:31 and read 5443 times.

Quoting dcann40 (Reply 74):
If someone regularly flies that trip, there's no way he wouldn't have Medallion status. He'd practically be silver in slightl over two trips.

My point was that that making that journey once was far more profitable for DL than the multiple cheap ATL-SFO journeys. Yet, making the transatlantic trip once wouldn't get you Silver Medallion under today's scheme or even under the new scheme with the MQD's. That's not the point of the program.

Yes, practically speaking, making that journey a couple of times would get you to Silver (and maybe Gold under the new scheme). And the frequent L/Q/T cross-country flyer that only spent $1,500-$2,000 wouldn't get any Medallion status. That's on the right track.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-01-18 07:21:20 and read 5410 times.

Why can't US carriers do what the rest of the world has always done: Don't give away miles on cheap fares?
It's simple, effective and achieves the same goal without adding complexity to the program.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: redzeppelin
Posted 2013-01-18 07:22:28 and read 5398 times.

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 81):
I was looking forward to flying UX to Madrid, RO to Bucharest, and KE to Seoul this year. It seems that now those trips will all be booked on AF or KL so I can ensure that I get 100% MQM.

If you're traveling this year, go ahead and take UX/RO/KE. The changes don't become effective until 2014.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: TeamInTheSky
Posted 2013-01-18 07:38:50 and read 5377 times.

Quoting redzeppelin (Reply 85):
changes don't become effective until 2014.

From this website: https://www.delta.com/content/www/en_US/skymiles/earn-miles/earn-miles-with-partners/airlines/air-europa.smt-gold.html

Beginning March 1, 2013, it looks like flying UX in business would only get you 50% MQM accrual which is a travesty. Maybe the dawning of the death of alliances is nigh and only mega JV partners are going to be held on the same level as the airline itself.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: Akiestar
Posted 2013-01-18 07:52:59 and read 5355 times.

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 86):
Beginning March 1, 2013, it looks like flying UX in business would only get you 50% MQM accrual which is a travesty. Maybe the dawning of the death of alliances is nigh and only mega JV partners are going to be held on the same level as the airline itself.

It's not only UX. There will be a systematic gutting of MQMs across all SkyTeam partners except AM/KL/AF/AZ. A friend of mine who flies DL four times a year (enough to make GM, as he flies between the Philippines and the U.S.) had this to say: "F*** Delta".

In a part of the world where there is very little JV coverage (only DL and KE here, for example), this sort of devaluation not only gives people a major disincentive to stick with Delta, but also devalues the entire alliance as a whole. In effect, this is a systematic gutting of the program, and while those who are spend enough can enjoy their perks (and more), those who go out of their way to fly Delta, but are not blessed with the pockets to spend full-fare, get the scraps, or worse, nothing. As far as I'm concerned, not all "low-revenue" elites are mileage runners who game their way to status: some of us really take the effort to fly Delta because we see the benefits to flying with them, and that loyalty ought to be important. Now that the incentive's gone, what's the point?

Sure, DL gets to reward its high-spend customers, but seriously, I don't think they should go around pontificating that they're targeting their "most valuable" customers. Sure, to their bottom line, they are, but to many people, the term "most valuable" is loaded with connotations that go beyond DL's bottom line. I better hope they understand that.

[Edited 2013-01-18 08:36:28]

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: TeamInTheSky
Posted 2013-01-18 08:31:58 and read 5278 times.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 87):
It's not only UX. There will be a systematic gutting of MQMs across all SkyTeam partners except AM/KL/AF/AZ. A friend of

[...]

Stations that go beyond DL's bottom line. I better hope they understand that.

All very good points Akiestar. I would seem to be in the same boat as you. Upon further reflection, it would seem that while this MQD requirement does not affect non-US residents. Delta's strategy to cull the ranks of foreign Medallion members is to cut 75% of their earnings potential on all but a few airlines. They also did this in a way that does not allow non-US residents much time to plan unlike the MQD requirement.

Regards,

Team

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-01-18 08:56:25 and read 5239 times.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 87):
while those who are spend enough can enjoy their perks (and more),

Is that not the whole point of a loyalty program ?

Look, my supermarket gives out points for every dollar we spent. If I went to a different chain each week I would not attain much, but being loyal to a single store give me money regular cash back, added discount on items, and even discounts on outside things like when I purchase fuel.

To me, the concept of spend more = get more, is the most basic and fair measure one can have.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: Akiestar
Posted 2013-01-18 09:29:03 and read 5167 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 89):
Look, my supermarket gives out points for every dollar we spent. If I went to a different chain each week I would not attain much, but being loyal to a single store give me money regular cash back, added discount on items, and even discounts on outside things like when I purchase fuel.

To me, the concept of spend more = get more, is the most basic and fair measure one can have.

That analogy would apply...if I was living in the United States. Unfortunately, I don't.

Unless DL is suddenly granted eighth-freedom rights and will fly me to domestic points within the Philippines, or it's suddenly given the rights to fly me intra-Asia on their metal aside from Japan, there are not that many options for me to fly and earn exclusively on DL metal. And, frankly, I don't think we non-American Skymiles members should be penalized for it.

I exclusively fly DL and partners for all my long-haul travel, so loyalty, at least for many of those affected by these changes, is simply more than just spending more money on an airline that, in this part of the world, only flies us to Japan or the U.S.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-01-18 09:34:05 and read 5161 times.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 90):
Unless DL is suddenly granted eighth-freedom rights and will fly me to domestic points within the Philippines, or it's suddenly given the rights to fly me intra-Asia on their metal aside from Japan, there are not that many options for me to fly and earn exclusively on DL metal.

I guess I don't understand why you feel entitled to DL miles for any activity besides flying on DL metal. It seems to me that any miles they give you for flying on PR or whoever are gratuitous.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: Akiestar
Posted 2013-01-18 09:49:03 and read 5144 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 91):
I guess I don't understand why you feel entitled to DL miles for any activity besides flying on DL metal. It seems to me that any miles they give you for flying on PR or whoever are gratuitous.

Simple. First, DL is a member of SkyTeam.

Second, because my frequent flyer program is a SkyTeam partner FFP, I should be entitled to earn DL miles on SkyTeam partner carriers (which I've been flying more often than DL itself due to my travel patterns), subject of course to the prerequisite terms and conditions (to the point that at one time, I had to specifically ask for specific booking classes just to accrue 100% MQMs on CZ).

I don't think that's gratuitous at all, and I find it utterly incredulous that you think so. If you think it's so gratuitous, then why on Earth is DL even in an airline alliance to begin with if they wanted to be so stingy with mileage accrual in the first place?   

(And, just so you know, I don't earn DL miles for flying PR. In fact, 5J was the WorldPerks partner for the Philippines when NW was still around.)

[Edited 2013-01-18 09:50:40]

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2013-01-18 09:50:26 and read 5137 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 68):
And this doesn't solve the fact that SkyMiles are virtually useless for reward availability at reasonable redemption rates, or that Delta has ludicrous ristrictions on upgrade awards/coupons.

I'd expect to hear about other changes in the program sometime in the next several months. We've had one show drop. The benefits shoe is still hanging. If the goal is to reduce the ranks of top-tier elites and focus on the high revenue generators, expect that those folks will be treated to a higher level of benefits.

The MQD thing is just the beginning.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-01-18 09:57:42 and read 5114 times.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 92):
I don't think that's gratuitous at all, and I find it utterly incredulous that you think so. If you think it's so gratuitous, then why on Earth is DL even in an airline alliance to begin with if they wanted to be so stingy with mileage accrual in the first place?

To me, alliances are much more about the benefits when flying (some of which DL doesn't do a very good job of) - things like seamless connections, lounge access, etc. - than miles. I say that because miles, especially on Delta, are very disconnected from flying as it is. To each his own . . .

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 93):
The benefits shoe is still hanging. If the goal is to reduce the ranks of top-tier elites and focus on the high revenue generators, expect that those folks will be treated to a higher level of benefits.

The trouble is that the MQD thresholds make it clear that the program as currently designed is much more about punishing low revenue passengers than rewarding high revenue passengers because they are far too low to truly reward high revenue passengers.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2013-01-18 12:03:11 and read 5003 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 94):
The trouble is that the MQD thresholds make it clear that the program as currently designed is much more about punishing low revenue passengers than rewarding high revenue passengers because they are far too low to truly reward high revenue passengers.

If the new benefits are as generous as I suspect they will be, then it will make prefect sense. There are far too many noncontributing (in terms of revenue) high-level elites to provide the level of benefits that Delta would like to provide at the highest tiers. So they have to redefine the tiers in order to make the value proposition (and economics) work.

Frankly, it all seems sort of silly. For high-level elites, these thresholds are not at all onerous. Especially when considering the AMEX "pass". Anyone who is truly a Platinum or Diamond level road warrior should have no issue meeting these thresholds.

I have a sneaky suspicion that when they announce the new benefits packages, we'll see a lot of people find ways to spend more money with Delta. And isn't that the point?

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-01-18 12:13:08 and read 4973 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 95):
There are far too many noncontributing (in terms of revenue) high-level elites to provide the level of benefits that Delta would like to provide at the highest tiers. So they have to redefine the tiers in order to make the value proposition (and economics) work.

I understand (and agree with) that, but I don't see a lot of culling based on the numbers DL has selected. They only require a spend of 10 cents a mile which can be done with little to no effort these days. I sometimes buy tickets in a higher fare class than what is available for flexibility purposes, but I can't recall the last time I saw a ticket that cheap for sale.

Doubling the number of MQDs required would have a much more significant effect without materially reducing the availability of elite tiers for true HVCs. For instance, somebody who gets silver with a paid J trip to Asia and then some domestic flying -- about the easiest way to get silver as far as the amount of flying required -- is going to spend far more than $5,000. I average well more than 20 cents a mile on my domestic DL flying, and I know many other business passengers who do too.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: SonomaFlyer
Posted 2013-01-18 13:07:45 and read 4905 times.

People seem to be confused about qualification with their j/v and alliance airlines. If you buy the ticket via DL, you qualify. They want the revenue channeled through them first regardless of the fact it's a j/v. It also gets YOU in the habit of doing everything via DL which saves them $$.

Cutting down on the overall numbers of elites will be very good for the elites who remain. It's not so great for those that are squeezed out but then you get to decide if DL (including schedule, price, service) work for you regardless of the frequent flyer program.

Economically, this is a no-brainer for any airline. I'm a bit surprised they didn't go straight revenue and build up qualification "points" by fare class. The higher the fare class, the more rapidly you move up the ranks. Straight cash homey!

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-01-18 13:58:50 and read 4855 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 84):
Why can't US carriers do what the rest of the world has always done: Don't give away miles on cheap fares?
It's simple, effective and achieves the same goal without adding complexity to the program.

I agree, cheap fares should maybe not earn any miles, or like Air Canada you need to pay extra to get the miles included.
However this is actually physiological hard thing to do - you are taking taking candy away from the baby.

Its easier IMO, to simply bolt on this revenue litmus test which does not change peoples basic points earning ability.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 90):
That analogy would apply...if I was living in the United States. Unfortunately, I don't.

Which brings up another topic.

You are probably better off being a member of a program in your home country or region atleast.
Being an overseas member of any program will always going to be a challenge. Each program will always be focused on its home market competitive landscape and needs.

As an example some airlines try hard to steer you to their local partner instead. For example KLM/Northwest did this with them trying to swap each others members in North America and Europe some time back.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 95):
There are far too many noncontributing (in terms of revenue) high-level elites

Amen to that. In recent years I have been amazed at the number of elites. For long time I have known and seen the numbers on paper for various airlines I've done work with, however it never really hit me until all the new check-in displays airlines have at gates these days and one can see 60 upgrade request on a little 737.

At the end being elite has indeed been devalued as its so common.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 95):
Frankly, it all seems sort of silly. For high-level elites, these thresholds are not at all onerous. Especially when considering the AMEX "pass". Anyone who is truly a Platinum or Diamond level road warrior should have no issue meeting these thresholds.

Agreed. As mentioned prior, if you have any decent amount of travel over a year, getting over the dollar spend thresholds or churning your AMEX card should not be the challenge.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: ikramerica
Posted 2013-01-18 14:11:40 and read 4826 times.

This will weed out some silvers, and make it so some annual golds who don't produce enough revenue will only makd silver, some plats only gold, etc.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2013-01-18 16:05:07 and read 4701 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 96):
I understand (and agree with) that, but I don't see a lot of culling based on the numbers DL has selected. They only require a spend of 10 cents a mile which can be done with little to no effort these days. I sometimes buy tickets in a higher fare class than what is available for flexibility purposes, but I can't recall the last time I saw a ticket that cheap for sale.

But you are making that assumption based some sort of feeling. The folks at Delta based the levels on real world data. I think what it SHOULD tell you is that there a lot of people getting high-level status without giving Delta much revenue in return. They aren't trying to weed people like you out. They are trying to weed out the ones that can't even reach this minimal level of spend.

I think these folks are referred by some important folks at DL as "Diamondellas". They've managed to game the system in such a way that they receive extreme benefits in exchange for very little spend.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: ordwaw
Posted 2013-01-18 16:48:23 and read 4608 times.

Quoting akelley728 (Reply 31):
The new Skymiles rules are for U.S. residents only.

It is more of an intellectual question ... Define U.S. resident to me ...

I.e., which data elements (that it has access to) will the SkyMiles software examine to make that determination?

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: Akiestar
Posted 2013-01-18 17:04:06 and read 4619 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 94):
To me, alliances are much more about the benefits when flying (some of which DL doesn't do a very good job of) - things like seamless connections, lounge access, etc. - than miles. I say that because miles, especially on Delta, are very disconnected from flying as it is.

Oh, they're both for me, especially since I have status. But we don't get those benefits now if we're unable to accrue the mileage needed for elite status, right? Otherwise, I'd care less about alliance benefits.

I appreciate Sky Priority, but you don't get to use Sky Priority unless you have status. Hence, at least on my part, accruing miles, especially on SkyTeam partners (because I live outside the U.S.), is very important.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 98):
You are probably better off being a member of a program in your home country or region atleast.
Being an overseas member of any program will always going to be a challenge. Each program will always be focused on its home market competitive landscape and needs.

As an example some airlines try hard to steer you to their local partner instead. For example KLM/Northwest did this with them trying to swap each others members in North America and Europe some time back.

On the part of NW/KL, NW was our "partner" FFP for the Asia-Pacific region. I started off with WorldPerks in 2000, for example, as did many other frequent flyers in the Asia-Pacific region. We were all brought in with the NW/DL merger, and DL consequently became responsible for that market. Similarly, for India and Europe, the program of choice back then for NW was KLM's Flying Dutchman: now it's Flying Blue.

If DL is trying so hard to market itself as a "global" airline, and is trying very hard to build brand equity here in Asia (where the DL name is nowhere near as strong as NW), I don't think it's plausible anymore to simply tinker with their frequent flyer programs in such a manner. Sure, I understand that Skymiles is first and foremost an "American" program, but I highly doubt that's the case anymore. For example, WorldPerks had a very healthy number of Japanese members who are now Skymiles members because of the merger: how do you think they'll react to these changes?

I still look forward to how Asian frequent flyers will react with the changes. Sure, we don't have spend requirements like our American counterparts do, but we fly partner airlines more often (except if we need to fly DL to or from Japan, and onward to or from the U.S.), and therefore accrual and redemption on SkyTeam partners is very important. Now that MQM accrual levels have been cut across the board, what's the point now of doing so?

Quoting ordwaw (Reply 101):
It is more of an intellectual question ... Define U.S. resident to me ...

I.e., which data elements (that it has access to) will the SkyMiles software examine to make that determination?

The address indicated on your Skymiles profile. And, based on what I've been reading down at FlyerTalk, there will be auditing of addresses to prevent an "exodus" of members switching their addresses to non-U.S. addresses to go around the new rules.

[Edited 2013-01-18 17:05:50]

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: ordwaw
Posted 2013-01-18 17:56:44 and read 4544 times.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 102):
The address indicated on your Skymiles profile. And, based on what I've been reading down at FlyerTalk, there will be auditing of addresses to prevent an "exodus" of members switching their addresses to non-U.S. addresses to go around the new rules.

That is what I am getting at. All they have is a contact mail address with a country. Those in the US, who still want to get the benefits of miles flying cheap flights will find enough Facebook or LinkedIn friends who will let them use their Philippines or Burkina Faso addresses. I can't see any effective and legal auditing mechanism to validate and enforce this.

Quoting alitalia744 (Reply 70):
That said, the biggest issue I see with the new program as someone who flies DL is the M fare MQM reduction and the inability to count JV ticketed flights as MQDs moving forward....
Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 81):
I am most flabbergasted by how they cut their international partners. As a fan of SkyTeam in general, they have absolutely gutted their partners outside of AM, AF, and KL.
Quoting Akiestar (Reply 87):
In a part of the world where there is very little JV coverage (only DL and KE here, for example), this sort of devaluation not only gives people a major disincentive to stick with Delta, but also devalues the entire alliance as a whole.

What goes around, comes around. I feel that when their alliance partners will limit benefits of their frequent fliers flying on DL, fewer people will end up flying DL from certain areas of the world.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 91):
I guess I don't understand why you feel entitled to DL miles for any activity besides flying on DL metal. It seems to me that any miles they give you for flying on PR or whoever are gratuitous.

There has never been any philanthropy in the airline business. Like I have said above, many people fly on DL metal because other SkyTeam partner fed them there first. (As an aside, even under the new program you are not forced to be on DL metal as you may fly on AF/KL metal and just book the ticket via Delta/Delta Flight Number to continue benefits.)

In general, I feel that creating all the additional rules, provisions, exclusions, and exceptions makes this already complicated world too complex. These are all created, yet the computer systems supporting all that massive business logic end up backfiring. The globally outsourced call centers do not help when there are problems.

All such programs were great when they were domestic. With people like myself, with dual nationality, having lived in four or so different countries within last four years, we are citizens of the world. I no longer know what/which is my home address. I get to the point where I have an American Express card and I cannot use it to pay for gas at the pump in Schaumburg, IL, because the pump wants me to enter a 5 digit (US) zip-code when I have a Dutch billing address with 9999AA postal code for that AMEX. I used to be M+ in the US, but living in Europe benefited more from establishing also M&M, which will backfire when I end up in the US again. Not to mention country specific iTunes store, etc.

Enough, sorry for getting off on this topic ...

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: Akiestar
Posted 2013-01-18 18:11:39 and read 4544 times.

Quoting ordwaw (Reply 103):
I can't see any effective and legal auditing mechanism to validate and enforce this.

Based on what's being said on FlyerTalk, DL might start asking for proof of residence abroad (billing statement, ID, etc.). I don't know how they'll implement it, but they're out to implement it.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-01-20 10:48:50 and read 4039 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 100):
The folks at Delta based the levels on real world data. I think what it SHOULD tell you is that there a lot of people getting high-level status without giving Delta much revenue in return.

Well, maybe. You suggested earlier that it's a first step. If it's a first step, there's no guarantee that it'll be (or is designed to be) effective at weeding folks out. I'd be in favor of requiring all MQMs to be flown, but that will never happen.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: BarryH
Posted 2013-01-20 10:54:55 and read 4033 times.

Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 72):
I really don't understand all of the jumping to conclusions about these changes as nearly none of them go into effect until January 2014, which will affect Medallion status in 2015. That's a long way off, and this program has been officially announced for less than a day.

The wildcard in all of this is what AA and UA do. If they don't match, DL could easily retract the requirement. Both UA and AA would be happy to have DL's disenfranchised elites because even at dollar thresholds lower than DL's asking they are probably ten times more valuable than Ma' and Pa' Kettle flying $199 RT trans-con. To me, this is no different than a fare increase. One airline puts it in place as a signal to others and whether it stays in place or not is determined by what competitors do.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: delta2ual
Posted 2013-01-21 09:17:01 and read 3640 times.

Quoting BarryH (Reply 106):
The wildcard in all of this is what AA and UA do. If they don't match, DL could easily retract the requirement. Both UA and AA would be happy to have DL's disenfranchised elites because even at dollar thresholds lower than DL's asking they are probably ten times more valuable than Ma' and Pa' Kettle flying $199 RT trans-con. To me, this is no different than a fare increase. One airline puts it in place as a signal to others and whether it stays in place or not is determined by what competitors do.


I would love to see DL stick with it, but also revamp the rewards to their FF's: No blackout dates ever for mileage redemption tickets, etc. If they gave better benefits to go with the stricter requirements, I'd bet many elites would choose to stay.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: cornutt
Posted 2013-01-21 09:24:42 and read 3631 times.

I fly out of a U.S. airport (HSV) where fares are high, and all of my flying is domestic over short/medium distances. So even though I do a lot of flights and spend a lot of money, I seldom make Silver without having to buy miles at the end of the year. If the dollars requirement was an alternate to the miles/segments requirement, I'd easily make Silver every year. But, according to the email I received, the dollars requirement is in addition to the miles/segments requirement. That's pretty frustrating for us heartland flyers.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: diverdave
Posted 2013-01-21 10:00:57 and read 3594 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 105):
Well, maybe. You suggested earlier that it's a first step. If it's a first step, there's no guarantee that it'll be (or is designed to be) effective at weeding folks out. I'd be in favor of requiring all MQMs to be flown, but that will never happen.

You are 100% correct - Delta is selling MQMs at this very moment.

http://dn.delta.com/skymiles/purchasemqms/buy/landing

David

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: DLPMMM
Posted 2013-01-21 10:21:48 and read 3571 times.

Quoting BarryH (Reply 106):
The wildcard in all of this is what AA and UA do. If they don't match, DL could easily retract the requirement. Both UA and AA would be happy to have DL's disenfranchised elites because even at dollar thresholds lower than DL's asking they are probably ten times more valuable than Ma' and Pa' Kettle flying $199 RT trans-con. To me, this is no different than a fare increase. One airline puts it in place as a signal to others and whether it stays in place or not is determined by what competitors do.

AA had already made a first response...AA is Matching Delta Diamond FFers to AA's EXP level...no challange flying requirements, just a straight match. AA is looking to pick up the disenfranchised DL FFers, and will probably get me in this, even though the Dollar spend requirements on DL I would make easily.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: mcogator
Posted 2013-01-21 12:04:35 and read 3439 times.

Quoting PI4EVER (Reply 60):
And it damn sure is likely that if you fly 125,000 MQM's, or 140 flight segments, you will have spent a heck of a lot more than $12,500 in ticket costs.

Except for all the people flying from the Eastern US to SIN/BKK/MNL. Average fare is going to be around $1400, and so you remove the taxes it will be only $1200. Multiply this by 6-7 round trips(22k MQM for MCO-SIN) and you hit Diamond Medallion on a $7400-$8600 spend.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: usdcaguy
Posted 2013-01-21 15:23:35 and read 3298 times.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 110):
AA is looking to pick up the disenfranchised DL FFers, and will probably get me in this, even though the Dollar spend requirements on DL I would make easily.

It would be interesting to know why you would switch to AA over a program change that you deem inconsequential. For the carriers, the problem with status matches is that there is no guarantee that people will fly you just because they get elite benefits on you. The status match usually has to come with other incentives, such as preferred pricing, that make the deal truly lucrative for the frequent flyer. Old habits die hard, and many people don't want to take the risk of not making a given level if they abandon their favorite airline. Personally, I would stick with DL in spite of whatever match AA gave me unless that also came with a significant discount off any fare; I don' t see AA offering many advantages these days unless I'm based in Texas (outside of Houston), LAX , CHI or NYC.

[Edited 2013-01-21 15:24:26]

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: MSPNWA
Posted 2013-01-21 15:40:49 and read 3264 times.

Quoting cornutt (Reply 108):
I fly out of a U.S. airport (HSV) where fares are high, and all of my flying is domestic over short/medium distances. So even though I do a lot of flights and spend a lot of money, I seldom make Silver without having to buy miles at the end of the year. If the dollars requirement was an alternate to the miles/segments requirement, I'd easily make Silver every year. But, according to the email I received, the dollars requirement is in addition to the miles/segments requirement. That's pretty frustrating for us heartland flyers.

Your situation is why I don't understand the new policy. Although the "and" requirement will weed out low-spending Silvers and such, the requirement doesn't reward the high-spending/low-mileage type on the other end. To me if you're going to make revenue an important factor in your FF program, reward high-spenders like you. If I ran an airline, you're the type of customer I want to reward most. But this change does nothing to help you except probably take out some of those Silvers you're competing against for upgrades, assuming you buy miles to even make Silver.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: michman
Posted 2013-01-21 17:00:14 and read 3172 times.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 113):
But this change does nothing to help you except probably take out some of those Silvers you're competing against for upgrades, assuming you buy miles to even make Silver.

I wouldn't necessarily discount this impact. There are probably quite a few Silver and Gold frequent flyers who chose their flights primarily on cost and don't particularly pay much attention to status level requirements, etc. These folks probably don't do mileage runs, or MQM's buy-ups, etc. If they fly out of competitive markets, they probably don't generate much revenue for DL. Many of these folks could see a drop in status, while those who fly out of non-competitive markets and are more loyal to DL will retain theirs and have a better shot at upgrades.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: cornutt
Posted 2013-01-21 17:27:04 and read 3134 times.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 113):
Although the "and" requirement will weed out low-spending Silvers and such, the requirement doesn't reward the high-spending/low-mileage type on the other end.

Yeah, that's the part that bothers me. RIght now, for the project that I'm working on at work, I'm doing HSV-SYR a lot. I just looked up on delta.com a round trip fare departing on Feburary 4 and returning on Feburary 7. (This is a trip I might actually take, depending on some things at work.) The earliest departure time that comes up, that doesn't involve two connections, is DL 1481/3621. If I don't want to leave SYR at 0600, which would mean wasting a whole day, I have to take a two-connection flight back (JFK and then ATL) and the total fare is $551.

If I do this run six times, I'll be well over the money threshold even though I've only accumulated about 11,000 MQMs. Considering the hassle of two-connection flights and the total time (about 7 hours), I would think that I'm the sort of customer that Delta would value, since there aren't many flyers in most markets that would tolerate that kind of inconvenience. (Here in HSV we don't have much choice.)

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-01-21 17:35:09 and read 3120 times.

Quoting cornutt (Reply 115):
If I do this run six times, I'll be well over the money threshold even though I've only accumulated about 11,000 MQMs.

If you have elite status, you'd earn 1,760 MQMs each way via ATL/JFK with the 500-mile minimums. That's 21,120 MQMs for 6 round-trips.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: DLPMMM
Posted 2013-01-22 06:13:15 and read 2954 times.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 112):
It would be interesting to know why you would switch to AA over a program change that you deem inconsequential. For the carriers, the problem with status matches is that there is no guarantee that people will fly you just because they get elite benefits on you. The status match usually has to come with other incentives, such as preferred pricing, that make the deal truly lucrative for the frequent flyer. Old habits die hard, and many people don't want to take the risk of not making a given level if they abandon their favorite airline. Personally, I would stick with DL in spite of whatever match AA gave me unless that also came with a significant discount off any fare; I don' t see AA offering many advantages these days unless I'm based in Texas (outside of Houston), LAX , CHI or NYC.

Delta has devalued skymiles so much by making availability at base pricing almost non-existant for international J class. It has also become almost impossible to upgrade to J class using the SWUs in advance. I don't risk losing much since I have lifetime DL gold due to over 2MM lifetime miles.

OW also has a superior RTW ticket program, and I fly 2 RTW J or F tickets per year. I was AA EXP for a few years. The problem for me was always starting my long trips with a 2.5 hour ER145 flight to DFW in order to connect to anywhere. If the merger happens with US, that will mean much better connectivity for me through CLT.

I am betting on the merger happening at this point sometime during the year.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2013-01-22 07:45:18 and read 2865 times.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 117):
Delta has devalued skymiles so much by making availability at base pricing almost non-existant for international J class. It has also become almost impossible to upgrade to J class using the SWUs in advance.

I agree with this. I've posted about this before. I'm an AS mileage plan member and you never see DL awards show up on their web site. AA will usually be available. Last time I looked at SEA-JAC it was all AA via DFW, but DL via SLC didn't even show up.

I'm seeing some slippage in AA and AS availability, but it's always far better than DL.

I've looked on DL's web site itself. Something as simple as SEA-MSP or DLH is NEVER 25K miles. It's always at least 40K, even mid-week.

I looked at SEA-BKK. Nothing anywhere near the 60K and nothing on the non-stop SEA-NRT flight.

I looked at SEA-UIO. AA wanted less miles for a First Class award than DL wanted for Coach.

NW was the same. As an AS MVP Gold member at the time, they offered First Class upgrades on NW. I flew SEA-MSP several times, and not even at peak times. The upgrade was never once actually available, even when NW had open seats in First Class. That unethical in my opinion. They advertise upgrades, but then never actually make them available.

As long as DL's revenue management people can get away with the "bait and switch" of having a frequent flier award program, but rarely making anything available, they'll keep doing it. People need to start voting with their feet. Fly AA more as long as they offer better awards, but the traveling public doesn't do that and airlines continue to get away with stuff like First Bag Fees and lack of frequent flier award availability when they advertise they have it.

[Edited 2013-01-22 07:53:29]

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: panamair
Posted 2013-01-22 07:54:19 and read 2855 times.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 117):
It has also become almost impossible to upgrade to J class using the SWUs in advance

I don't find that to be true at all; of the three (UA, DL, AA), I find that DL still has the best availability in advance; UA is the worst, and AA is somewhere in the middle. DL is tough for flights to hubs like AMS and CDG, but otherwise, I find SWU upgrade availability much easier than AA (even as an AA EXP).

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 118):
People need to start voting with their feet. Fly AA more as long as they offer better awards, but the traveling public doesn't do that

That's because a FF program is far from being the #1 or even #2 or #3 decision driver for most people. While Skymiles may not be the most generous, Delta's network scope and operational reliability are far more important to many (in particular for the lucrative corporate accounts), and in 2012, Delta's operational performance (completion factor, on-time performance) blew the primary competition (UA, AA) away....

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-01-22 07:57:55 and read 2845 times.

Quoting panamair (Reply 119):
and in 2012, Delta's operational performance (completion factor, on-time performance) blew the primary competition (UA, AA) away....

Of course, that's hardly a fair fight. I'd hope that DL's DTW hub has better operational performance than UA and AA's ORD hubs, but if I need to get to Chicago, that doesn't really help me.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: panamair
Posted 2013-01-22 08:21:35 and read 2815 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 120):
Of course, that's hardly a fair fight. I'd hope that DL's DTW hub has better operational performance than UA and AA's ORD hubs,

Huh? I'm not talking about ATC issues here. I'm talking about the particular problems that UA and AA had in 2012 with their completion factors and punctuality. Delta got their operational act together in 2011 and 2012 after a dismal 2010...Hence I said 2012.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-01-22 08:24:32 and read 2804 times.

Quoting panamair (Reply 121):
I'm talking about the particular problems that UA and AA had in 2012 with their completion factors and punctuality.

If you suggest that the AA and UA problems were one-off or short term problems, how is 2012 alone relevant?

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: jayunited
Posted 2013-01-22 08:25:21 and read 2806 times.

Quoting panamair (Reply 119):
I don't find that to be true at all; of the three (UA, DL, AA), I find that DL still has the best availability in advance; UA is the worst, and AA is somewhere in the middle. DL is tough for flights to hubs like AMS and CDG, but otherwise, I find SWU upgrade availability much easier than AA (even as an AA EXP).

UA is not the worst at upgrades it all depends on your status. UA has free domestic mainline upgrades which are available to everyone who has status the problem is UA has a lot of 1K's and Platinum members most of those upgrades are taken by them. If you are flying from ORD to LGA, DCA, EWR, SFO, LAX, DEN, IAD, maybe even IAH and you are not at least a platinum member your probably are not going to get an upgrade because there is just to many people ahead of you with higher status than you have and also sometimes no one gets upgraded because the 8, 12 or 16 seats in first class where actually bought by people who wanted a first class ticket. The only exception is the 757 rarely do we sell all 24 seat on that plane.

So I think DL approach is reasonable by telling customers that they will have to spend a minimum amount along with the miles in order to gain/keep their status is great and it will mean that the airline is rewarding the right customers. United already takes this approach to their Global Service customers who in addition to having to fly so many miles in a year they also have to spend a lot of money in that same year with United to be invited into the GS program. I suspect that both AA and UA will follow DL lead and apply this to all customers who want to maintain their status it is the right move going forward.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: panamair
Posted 2013-01-22 08:26:59 and read 2799 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 122):
If you suggest that the AA and UA problems were one-off or short term problems, how is 2012 alone relevant?

Huh? Not understanding you...if they are short-term and one-off, then 2012 alone should be relevant. ???

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-01-22 08:38:22 and read 2782 times.

Quoting panamair (Reply 124):
Huh? Not understanding you...if they are short-term and one-off, then 2012 alone should be relevant. ???

You seemed to suggest that corporate travel would shift to DL because UA and AA are unreliable. But then you argued that UA and AA were unreliable for a while in 2012, not that DL consistently does better. That's where I got lost.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: diverdave
Posted 2013-01-22 09:09:50 and read 2735 times.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 117):
Delta has devalued skymiles so much by making availability at base pricing almost non-existant for international J class. It has also become almost impossible to upgrade to J class using the SWUs in advance. I don't risk losing much since I have lifetime DL gold due to over 2MM lifetime miles.

Domestic base pricing availability on Delta is pretty wretched as well.

David

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: ckfred
Posted 2013-01-22 12:42:26 and read 2641 times.

The problem I see with this is that employees on corporate expense accounts could very well start delaying the purchase of tickets, in order to have to spend more money and achieve elite status.

That drives up travel expenses, which could lead to travel cut-backs.

A friend of mine works for a company that decided to severely restrict travel in Q4 of last year. Unless three layers of supervisors agreed that travel was necessary, you couldn't go on a business trip. People were trying to work with the restrictions by proposing travel 6 weeks or more in advance, say in advance of a planning meeting, or if an IT installation had been planned for several months.

The low air fare was pointed out as a reason that the trip could pass muster.

If a company is strongly encouraging employees to book very far in advance, they could lose their elite status, despite the frequent travel.

That could very well cause a company to switch carriers.

The whole fee notion runs counter to what is something taught in business classes these days. It's better to price a product a bit on the high side, then show the value in the product (say a car with many standard features), rather than price it very low, then start charging for items that many think should be included.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2013-01-22 13:20:24 and read 2604 times.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 117):
Delta has devalued skymiles so much by making availability at base pricing almost non-existant for international J class. It has also become almost impossible to upgrade to J class using the SWUs in advance. I don't risk losing much since I have lifetime DL gold due to over 2MM lifetime miles.

The entire redemption situation is likely to be turned on its end. This revenue threshold requirement is only the first phase. I suspect it will allow them to institute a redemption system that will be far more generous to the elites that qualify.  

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-01-22 13:33:10 and read 2578 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 128):
The entire redemption situation is likely to be turned on its end. This revenue threshold requirement is only the first phase. I suspect it will allow them to institute a redemption system that will be far more generous to the elites that qualify.

I hope so. The trouble is that this incremental approach is irritating people who don't see any concrete benefits but see a detriment or potential detriment (loss of status).

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-01-22 13:38:41 and read 2569 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 128):
I suspect it will allow them to institute a redemption system that will be far more generous to the elites that qualify.

Sort of like the expanded Low award availability we were assured would materialize in the summer of 2011, when the T-72 rule on award changes was implemented without any prior notice? Still waiting for that one almost 18 months later.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2013-01-22 13:51:18 and read 2560 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 130):
Sort of like the expanded Low award availability we were assured would materialize in the summer of 2011, when the T-72 rule on award changes was implemented without any prior notice? Still waiting for that one almost 18 months later.

Feel better now?  

Seriously, redemptions have been a huge issue for Delta for a long time. Its not that they don't realize there are issues. The problem is that the easy fixes are astronomically expensive in terms of revenue degradation. That is a major reason that they are reinventing the program. What they've announced so far is a very small part of what we should expect.

For those who will achieve top-tier status, I'd say hold your concern until you see the upside.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-01-22 13:54:59 and read 2544 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 131):
For those who will achieve top-tier status, I'd say hold your concern until you see the upside.

So what you're saying is that past experience shouldn't be taken as a consideration of future results?  

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2013-01-22 14:15:05 and read 2512 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 132):
So what you're saying is that past experience shouldn't be taken as a consideration of future results?  

I'm saying that the new program is intended to provide a fundamental fix to issues that were basically unfixable in the current program. Some of which led to many of the complaints that people have today. Its not all policy, some of it is technology.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-01-22 14:21:23 and read 2489 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 133):
Its not all policy, some of it is technology.

It's the part where it is a matter of policy, where no consumer-friendly solutions are put forth that concerns most. To make promises, then leave people hanging for a year-and-a-half, is less than assuring, I hope you can understand.

After hearing "we'll do better for you next time" too many times, it starts being taken with a silo full of salt.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: klkla
Posted 2013-01-22 14:29:30 and read 2474 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 133):
I'm saying that the new program is intended to provide a fundamental fix to issues that were basically unfixable in the current program. Some of which led to many of the complaints that people have today. Its not all policy, some of it is technology.

Please elaborate on specific fixes being made. I don't see any.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2013-01-22 16:06:26 and read 2423 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 134):
It's the part where it is a matter of policy, where no consumer-friendly solutions are put forth that concerns most. To make promises, then leave people hanging for a year-and-a-half, is less than assuring, I hope you can understand.

After hearing "we'll do better for you next time" too many times, it starts being taken with a silo full of salt.

I completely understand. What I'm saying is that the broken program couldn't be fixed until the technology would support the fixes.

I've got a vested interest in this myself as a DM. I don't want to be wrong about this. I'm pretty sure I'm not.  
Quoting klkla (Reply 135):
Please elaborate on specific fixes being made. I don't see any.

Can't do that. Nothing has been announced. Even if I knew any specifics, I'm certainly not going to be the one to announce it.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-01-22 16:13:46 and read 2410 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 136):
What I'm saying is that the broken program couldn't be fixed until the technology would support the fixes.

Except that first, you said this:

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 131):
Its not that they don't realize there are issues. The problem is that the easy fixes are astronomically expensive in terms of revenue degradation. That is a major reason that they are reinventing the program.

It made it sound as if DL would by policy, not implement fixes which would allow better access to awards until it (perhaps?) would only benefit their most valuable(?) flyers. Since MQDs won't be implemented until 1/1/14 for the 2015 medallion year, that's another two years off.

We're a tough crowd, you've been here long enough to know that. We look for every chink in the armor.  

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2013-01-22 16:24:36 and read 2390 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 137):
It made it sound as if DL would by policy, not implement fixes which would allow better access to awards until it (perhaps?) would only benefit their most valuable(?) flyers. Since MQDs won't be implemented until 1/1/14 for the 2015 medallion year, that's another two years off.

We're a tough crowd, you've been here long enough to know that. We look for every chink in the armor.  

If the tech can be implemented in early 2014, there is no reason benefits can't be.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-01-22 16:38:08 and read 2378 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 138):
If the tech can be implemented in early 2014, there is no reason benefits can't be.

Except in the 2014 medallion year, the ranks of medallion elites will still be filled with those who've qualified without going through the MQD vetting process yet. So I'm confused at your conclusion. If DL opens the spigots to better award availability for elites in '14, they should be snapped up by those who'll be using their last year of elite status to redeem the best awards, with the possibility of it resulting in the revenue degradation you talked about earlier.

It's like the guy on FT who's claiming that as soon as MQDs come in, there'll be an almost instantaneous increase in spend by DL to improve their First Class cabin, as those who should rightfully be there is restored, rather than the over-dependence upon the Greyhound crowd at present. It's stuff where the right hand isn't meeting the left hand.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2013-01-22 18:33:06 and read 2328 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 139):
Except in the 2014 medallion year, the ranks of medallion elites will still be filled with those who've qualified without going through the MQD vetting process yet. So I'm confused at your conclusion. If DL opens the spigots to better award availability for elites in '14, they should be snapped up by those who'll be using their last year of elite status to redeem the best awards, with the possibility of it resulting in the revenue degradation you talked about earlier.

You could well be right. I'm not claiming any knowledge on specifics. What I am comfortable with is that MQDs aren't the end of the story and that top-tier elites will likely be treated better. There is a lot of room to move in that space. Plus, I think it is likely that redemption availability will change for everyone.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: klkla
Posted 2013-01-22 18:52:42 and read 2298 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 136):
Can't do that. Nothing has been announced. Even if I knew any specifics, I'm certainly not going to be the one to announce it.

It will be interesting to see if there's any push back from frequent flyers from these changes.

Last year my spend with DL was $19K and I earned 138K MQM's and qualified for Diamond. Had the new rules been in effect only $15K would have qualified towards elite and with the change in value of M fares I would have only had 111K MQM's and would have only been Platinum.

I realize $19K isn't huge in the scheme of the things but I'm very seriously considering changing to AA and wondering how many others are in a similar frame of mind now.

Topic: RE: Rumor: DL Skymiles To Add Revenue Requirement
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-01-22 19:00:56 and read 2289 times.

Quoting klkla (Reply 141):
I realize $19K isn't huge in the scheme of the things but I'm very seriously considering changing to AA and wondering how many others are in a similar frame of mind now.

AA is doing status matches from DL Diamond to AA EXP right now, if you're interested. It requires a challenge: AA Matching DM to EXP


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