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Topic: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: icelandair75w
Posted 2013-01-06 14:59:36 and read 11553 times.

Hello All!

I have not found any official news or press releases announcing service, however, I have seen a schedule input into the Amadeus booking system.

CM 718 D PTY BOS 1146 1816 0 10JUL13 02NOV13 73G 5:30
CM 719 D BOS PTY 0954 1428 0 11JUL13 02NOV13 73G 5:34

CM 718 D PTY BOS 1146 1716 0 03NOV13 08MAR14 73G 5:30
CM 719 D BOS PTY 0854 1428 0 03NOV13 08MAR14 73G 5:34

Showing a 1816 arrival, then a ground stop of 15 hours, 38 minutes for a departure at 0954 the following morning back to PTY.

Quite exciting to see another carrier commencing services to BOS! Hope to see a press release sometime soon.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: BOStonsox
Posted 2013-01-06 15:38:16 and read 11428 times.

This would be exciting news, hopefully it will be confirmed soon!

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: Avianca
Posted 2013-01-06 15:40:16 and read 11412 times.

For sure a great addition to the CM Network!

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2013-01-06 15:43:08 and read 11397 times.

Which is the reason for such a long ground stop? I imagine it is just to reduce connection times in PTY, but isn't there any other way to optimize it? Is this the way CM works in JFK or other stations in the US?

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-01-06 16:01:11 and read 11324 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 3):

With CM at JFK, they have a daytime flight with a 1 hour turnaround (1250-and 1405) and a RON that arrives at 2350 and departs 0905. Similar morning departure time as BOS, but much later night arrival.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: TWA772LR
Posted 2013-01-06 16:10:40 and read 11280 times.

Looks like CM brass are lurkers on a.net!
Good for BOS! It's about time that got some Lat Am service! Now, if we can get CM to IAH or HOU...  Wink

[Edited 2013-01-06 16:11:29]

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-01-06 16:11:48 and read 11276 times.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 4):
With CM at JFK, they have a daytime flight with a 1 hour turnaround (1250-and 1405) and a RON that arrives at 2350 and departs 0905.

CM's YYZ schedule is very similar to the 2nd JFK flight. Arrives YYZ 2341 and departs 0840.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: adamh8297
Posted 2013-01-06 16:58:01 and read 11090 times.

Connections look great to South America!!!

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: clrd4t8koff
Posted 2013-01-06 17:36:56 and read 10940 times.

Interesting time to arrive BOS, only to let it sit the next 15.5 hours. Boston's only international terminal, E, isn't that big and arriving around 6pm is heavy European traffic. Gonna have to unload and repark remotely quick. Guess AA dropping their LHR arrivals made some room?

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: alphaomega
Posted 2013-01-06 17:54:43 and read 10866 times.

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 8):
Interesting time to arrive BOS, only to let it sit the next 15.5 hours. Boston's only international terminal, E, isn't that big and arriving around 6pm is heavy European traffic. Gonna have to unload and repark remotely quick. Guess AA dropping their LHR arrivals made some room?

1800 actually isn't too bad for Terminal E...now if they run 1 or 2hrs late thats a different story...

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-01-06 18:49:04 and read 10658 times.

Great for BOS but the Latin fares out of BOS are dreadful

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: stlgph
Posted 2013-01-06 19:28:11 and read 10501 times.

Quoting alphaomega (Reply 9):

going to be interesting in the summer @ Boston, Terminal E. i believe Icelandair is going to go up to 3 daily.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: icelandair75w
Posted 2013-01-06 20:29:49 and read 10331 times.

This is what I have gathered for next summer for Terminal E:

Aer Lingus - 18x weekly, 14x DUB, 4x SNN
Air France - 2x daily, 1x 747, 1x 777
Alitalia - 1x daily, 332
American - No schedule posted, looks like they dropped CDG/LHR service to BOS completely.
British - 4x daily, 2x 777, 2x 747
Copa Airlines - 1x daily, 737
Delta - 1x daily 757 CDG, 2x daily AMS 1x 332 1x333, 1x daily LHR 767
Iberia - 1x daily 340
Icelandair - 18x weekly 757
Japan Airlines - 1x daily 787
Lufthansa - 2 daily FRA 1x 346 1x343/333, 1x daily MUC 343/346
SATA - Could not figure out their messy schedule, probably 9x weekly as they did last summer with a 313
Sun Country - 13x weekly 737 to MSP....
Swiss - 1x daily 333
TACV - 3x weekly 757
Virgin Atlantic - 1x daily 333


Definitely going to be a busy summer.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: zrs70
Posted 2013-01-06 20:34:29 and read 10313 times.

Once upon a time, BOS was the second biggest european gateway city. Now, it is dwarfed by others.

Still, while not a lot of depth of flights. the breadth is pretty strong. BOS sees quite a variety of international carriers that one doesn't find at a whole lot of US airports.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: BOStonsox
Posted 2013-01-06 21:28:01 and read 10214 times.

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 13):
Once upon a time, BOS was the second biggest european gateway city. Now, it is dwarfed by others.

That's what deregulation did, IINM, and BOS was one of a small handful of airports where airlines could fly into.

Quoting icelandair75w (Reply 12):
This is what I have gathered for next summer for Terminal E:

You forgot all of the B6 arrivals from AUA, BDA, CUN, GCM, MBJ, PUJ, SXM, STI, and SDQ as well as FL/WN's flights to and from CAK, ATL, BWI, MDW, DEN, MCI, MKE, BNA, and STL. I think that's all of them.

However, there is this, but I don't know what has come of it: http://www.icelandexpress.com/upload...maraaetlun2013_070912english2.pdf.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-01-06 21:34:10 and read 10186 times.

Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 14):

However, there is this, but I don't know what has come of it: http://www.icelandexpress.com/upload....pdf.

I thought IcelandExpress ceased the USA flights when Astreaus went under?

Quoting icelandair75w (Reply 12):
Aer Lingus - 18x weekly, 14x DUB, 4x SNN

I guess the SNN flights are doing well, weren't they only thrice weekly this past summer?

Quoting icelandair75w (Reply 12):
This is what I have gathered for next summer for Terminal E:

Aer Lingus - 18x weekly, 14x DUB, 4x SNN
Air France - 2x daily, 1x 747, 1x 777
Alitalia - 1x daily, 332
American - No schedule posted, looks like they dropped CDG/LHR service to BOS completely.
British - 4x daily, 2x 777, 2x 747
Copa Airlines - 1x daily, 737
Delta - 1x daily 757 CDG, 2x daily AMS 1x 332 1x333, 1x daily LHR 767
Iberia - 1x daily 340
Icelandair - 18x weekly 757
Japan Airlines - 1x daily 787
Lufthansa - 2 daily FRA 1x 346 1x343/333, 1x daily MUC 343/346
SATA - Could not figure out their messy schedule, probably 9x weekly as they did last summer with a 313
Sun Country - 13x weekly 737 to MSP....
Swiss - 1x daily 333
TACV - 3x weekly 757
Virgin Atlantic - 1x daily 333


Definitely going to be a busy summer.

Doesn't WN also operated out of this terminal as well?

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: icelandair75w
Posted 2013-01-06 21:38:31 and read 10164 times.

WN I didn't factor in, as they operate at gates E1A-E1E, which do not interfere with international air carrier operations (domestic only gates).

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: BOStonsox
Posted 2013-01-06 21:59:50 and read 10138 times.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 15):
I thought IcelandExpress ceased the USA flights when Astreaus went under?

They did, but then WOW Air took over and they have A320s. Iceland Express also leased two A320s. The Iceland Express website has a press release from September announcing flights to BOS, and it is mentioned in other places on their site, but you can't book anything. It's possible they cancelled them, but I would imagine if they did, they would say that they had.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: usflyguy
Posted 2013-01-06 22:06:32 and read 10125 times.

Quoting icelandair75w (Reply 16):
WN I didn't factor in, as they operate at gates E1A-E1E, which do not interfere with international air carrier operations

But the WN/FL passengers do use the same terminal facilities if they desire something other than what's offered in their gate area.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-01-06 22:08:13 and read 10115 times.

Quoting icelandair75w (Reply 16):

I didn't know they were domestic only gates that WN used. I guess ya learn something new every day.  
Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 17):

Hmm, that's strange. You'd think they would have announced a cancellation, but who knows.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: icelandair75w
Posted 2013-01-06 23:31:48 and read 9928 times.

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 18):

But the WN/FL passengers do use the same terminal facilities if they desire something other than what's offered in their gate area.

Very true, I was just talking in terms of gate usage/space anyways. It's a given that the terminal is going to be way too crowded but TSA processing times have been good granted them staffing properly which isn't always the case unfortunately...

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 19):

I didn't know they were domestic only gates that WN used. I guess ya learn something new every day.  

Yeah WN/FL lease those gates and areas for their flights only.


The issue that is killing Logan's Terminal E now is the initial expansion plan from yeaaaaars ago that they had introduced. Originally they were supposed to expand the terminal out close to where the American hangar is which would allow for much more gate space..... that never happened.. And now, with the amount of travelling passengers on the rise, and airlines receiving more aircraft and introducing new destinations, Boston is limited on how many they can accommodate. They need to do something soon, as Copa is not the only airline that wants to operate into Boston.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: alphaomega
Posted 2013-01-07 04:24:55 and read 9341 times.

Quoting stlgph (Reply 11):

going to be interesting in the summer @ Boston, Terminal E. i believe Icelandair is going to go up to 3 daily.

Not 3 every day, but 18x weekly. Their flights are spread out and the already have 1 in the peak of the terminal rush so it won't hurt the gate space.

Quoting icelandair75w (Reply 20):

The issue that is killing Logan's Terminal E now is the initial expansion plan from yeaaaaars ago that they had introduced. Originally they were supposed to expand the terminal out close to where the American hangar is which would allow for much more gate space..... that never happened.. And now, with the amount of travelling passengers on the rise, and airlines receiving more aircraft and introducing new destinations, Boston is limited on how many they can accommodate. They need to do something soon, as Copa is not the only airline that wants to operate into Boston.

They will have a tough time justifying the $$ to expand - yes the terminal is crowded in the evening, but if you go by at 10am its a ghost town. If they were able to get airlines to round out the schedule they would have an easier time getting federal funding to expand (Massport won't foot the bill on their own). IF EK is going to start BOS and they have a morning flight which I believe they would, they'll get the run of the terminal with JL. Now if we can just get KE to come back...

CM will also help round out the morning with a 10am departure. Their initial schedule was denied landing rights by CBP as they wanted to operate 0100-0500, so looks like CBP won with their schedule (which I think is better for the terminal anyways).

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: adamh8297
Posted 2013-01-07 05:12:55 and read 9175 times.

Quoting alphaomega (Reply 21):
Their initial schedule was denied landing rights by CBP as they wanted to operate 0100-0500,

Was the 1:00-5:00 flight leaving BOS or PTY?

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2013-01-07 05:52:59 and read 9041 times.

Quoting icelandair75w (Thread starter):
Quite exciting to see another carrier commencing services to BOS! Hope to see a press release sometime soon.

I see this as more as a preventive move than anything else. Rumors have been rampant for the last 18 months or so that B6 wants to start PTY from both BOS and JFK in 2013.

THis could be designed encourage B6 out of stay out PTY as much as it is to make money.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: adamh8297
Posted 2013-01-07 06:43:18 and read 8828 times.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 23):
I see this as more as a preventive move than anything else. Rumors have been rampant for the last 18 months or so that B6 wants to start PTY from both BOS and JFK in 2013.

THis could be designed encourage B6 out of stay out PTY as much as it is to make money.

BOS-PTY is under 25 PDEW but the numbers will go up due to this flight. They would fail at BOS-PTY. B6 would start BOS-SJO or BOS-GUA before PTY.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2013-01-07 06:56:32 and read 8922 times.

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 24):
They would fail at BOS-PTY. B6 would start BOS-SJO or BOS-GUA before PTY.

I am not so sure about that....PTY is booming right now.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-01-07 07:34:16 and read 8807 times.

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 13):
Once upon a time, BOS was the second biggest european gateway city. Now, it is dwarfed by others.

It still is the largest non-hub European gateway. Heck, BOS sees more TATL airlines than even some large hubs. Not too shaby.

Quoting icelandair75w (Reply 20):
And now, with the amount of travelling passengers on the rise, and airlines receiving more aircraft and introducing new destinations, Boston is limited on how many they can accommodate. They need to do something soon, as Copa is not the only airline that wants to operate into Boston.

Their biggest mistake was to stick WN in terminal E but nevertheless, terminal E is only busy during the peak TATL schedule hours, and those flights are less likely to increase. I really don't see anyone else from Europe starting service or increasing service to Boston. There is plenty of space at terminal E for Central/South America and Asia operations as evidenced by JAL's and Copa's schedule.
Also, don't forget that AA, DL, and B6 ops at terminal E are only for arrivals so they don't sit at the gates for very long at all.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: clrd4t8koff
Posted 2013-01-07 08:11:47 and read 8731 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 26):
Quoting zrs70 (Reply 13):
Once upon a time, BOS was the second biggest european gateway city. Now, it is dwarfed by others.

Quoting airbazar,reply=26:

It still is the largest non-hub European gateway. Heck, BOS sees more TATL airlines than even some large hubs. Not too shaby.

I was thinking the exact same thing. When looking at the top 10 MSA's in the US http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas, Boston is a healthy #10, yet offers more non-stop European destinations than some of the others whom are larger - Dallas, Houston specifically. Both DFW and IAH are huge hubs for two global carriers. I'd say BOS is doing quite well as an airport with no significant feed/connections.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: adamh8297
Posted 2013-01-07 08:21:10 and read 8657 times.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 25):
I am not so sure about that....PTY is booming right now.

PTY is booming... as a CM hub... doesn't mean it would make a good B6 spoke.

2011 NYC (JFK/EWR/LGA) Traffic 92,921 = 127 PDEW

-Market Currently well served by 2x CM JFK-PTY and 1x UA EWR-PTY. B6 could possibly compete in the market but I'm not 100 percent sure.

2011 BOS (BOS/MHT) Traffic 11,430 = > 16 PDEW (I overestimated a bit previously)

-The traffic just isn't there for a B6 BOS-PTY flight. CM is the only airline that could serve this route due to the "Hub of the Americas" BOS-PTY is also as long as BOS-PHX so its basically a long-thin transcon route.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: clrd4t8koff
Posted 2013-01-07 08:51:09 and read 8514 times.

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 28):
PTY is booming... as a CM hub... doesn't mean it would make a good B6 spoke.

2011 NYC (JFK/EWR/LGA) Traffic 92,921 = 127 PDEW

-Market Currently well served by 2x CM JFK-PTY and 1x UA EWR-PTY. B6 could possibly compete in the market but I'm not 100 percent sure.

2011 BOS (BOS/MHT) Traffic 11,430 = > 16 PDEW (I overestimated a bit previously)

-The traffic just isn't there for a B6 BOS-PTY flight. CM is the only airline that could serve this route due to the "Hub of the Americas" BOS-PTY is also as long as BOS-PHX so its basically a long-thin transcon route.

How long has CM & UA been flying non-stop from the NYC area to PTY? A few years is my guess, which is why the numbers are so much larger. Given that the NYC msa is obviously MUCH larger than BOS, over time CM will establish the BOS market and it will grow. Will it ever be 3x daily like NYC see's? Probably not. But I could see this upgrading to a 738 after a while.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: STT757
Posted 2013-01-07 08:59:42 and read 8494 times.

Very surprising, shows how much CM and Panama in general have grown. I would have expected many other routes before BOS, routes such as:

MSY, ATL, TPA, SFO, SEA, DFW

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 29):

How long has CM & UA been flying non-stop from the NYC area to PTY?

UA inherited EWR-PTY from CO who was operating the route since the mid 1990s. CO inherited the route from EA who was operating JFK-PTY since the early '80s.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2013-01-07 09:02:29 and read 8473 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 30):
MSY, ATL, TPA, SFO, SEA, DFW

I agree I would have expected to see TPA (with its education connections) and MSY long before BOS.

Don't think SEA is doable n/s.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2013-01-07 09:19:42 and read 8438 times.

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 27):
I was thinking the exact same thing. When looking at the top 10 MSA's in the US http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas, Boston is a healthy #10, yet offers more non-stop European destinations than some of the others whom are larger - Dallas, Houston specifically. Both DFW and IAH are huge hubs for two global carriers. I'd say BOS is doing quite well as an airport with no significant feed/connections.

There are a few reasons for that.

Despite BOS is not a hub for any major airline, it does not mean there are no connections (interlining). In that sense, BOS has a great location for Europe, being the shortest flight to Europe from the US, and in a good location to transfer anywhere West or South (which basically is all of the US) without a detour. While BOS is not a good location to transfer within the US (the reason for not being anyone's hub), it is generally a good location for US-BOS-EU.

BOS being a comparatively shorter flight to/from Europe, makes it easier for European routes to make them profitable.

Not having a dominant airline (such as IAH or DFW) also make additional airlines more keen to get into the market.

And the nature of business traffic in Boston (healthcare, research, education) probably is more linked to "traditional" destinations like Europe. Even "ethnic" traffic is more linked to Europe (see BOS-SNN or SATA).

DFW/IAH might not have so many European destinations (again, it is a much longer flight, an extreme case is KEF-BOS VS an hypotetical KEF-IAH), but they have direct links to the likes of GRU, GIG, SCL, LOS, ICN or DOH (oil, manufacturing, a more diverse VFR...)

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: clrd4t8koff
Posted 2013-01-07 12:23:46 and read 7859 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 32):
DFW/IAH might not have so many European destinations (again, it is a much longer flight, an extreme case is KEF-BOS VS an hypotetical KEF-IAH), but they have direct links to the likes of GRU, GIG, SCL, LOS, ICN or DOH (oil, manufacturing, a more diverse VFR...)

Would be helpful to stay on topic. My post was in regards to European and only European flights. I, and everyone else, is well aware both DFW and IAH have connections to South America, Asia and the Middle East. Give BOS another 12 months and I'm certain you'll see both DOH and ICN announced.

Does DFW or IAH even have non-stops to ZRH? FCO? Heck, forget about KEF, ZRH is a fairly large financial center and popular tourist destination in Europe.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2013-01-07 13:09:58 and read 7734 times.

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 34):
Does DFW or IAH even have non-stops to ZRH? FCO? Heck, forget about KEF, ZRH is a fairly large financial center and popular tourist destination in Europe.

Boston area is one of the two (along with the Bay Area) world's largest biotech clusters. Switzerland is home to many pharma companies. For instance, Novartis, one of the largest pharma companies in the world, has a campus in Mass Avenue next to MIT (and they are expanding with a huge new building). Also Switzerland is home to some of the leading universities in Europe (notably ETH Zurich), so that certainly creates further sinergies with some institutions in Cambridge. Anecdotically (or not really) the Swiss consulate is in Cambridge, steps away from Harvard Square.

So that is the main and first reason for your ZRH-BOS flight: biotech, research and higher education in Cambridge.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: clrd4t8koff
Posted 2013-01-07 13:39:13 and read 7663 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 34):
Boston area is one of the two (along with the Bay Area) world's largest biotech clusters. Switzerland is home to many pharma companies. For instance, Novartis, one of the largest pharma companies in the world, has a campus in Mass Avenue next to MIT (and they are expanding with a huge new building). Also Switzerland is home to some of the leading universities in Europe (notably ETH Zurich), so that certainly creates further sinergies with some institutions in Cambridge. Anecdotically (or not really) the Swiss consulate is in Cambridge, steps away from Harvard Square.

So that is the main and first reason for your ZRH-BOS flight: biotech, research and higher education in Cambridge.

Listen, I appreciate all of the obvious points you keep making. I live in Boston - I'm very well aware of the biotech, rt.128 tech belt, multiple higher education institutions, etc. In fact, I think most people are aware of all that. The point in my initial post was in response to this:

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 13):

Once upon a time, BOS was the second biggest european gateway city. Now, it is dwarfed by others.

BOS will always be smaller to Europe in comparison to places like JFK & ORD. Even IAD has more European flights simply because it's the nations capital, but it sure beats other larger Metro area's which is why I used DFW and IAH. Dwarfed isn't the word to describe the amount of European flights at BOS. That analogy WOULD apply to something like - RDU is dwarfed by BOS in terms of flights to Europe.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: AmricanShamrok
Posted 2013-01-07 13:45:07 and read 7647 times.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 15):
I guess the SNN flights are doing well, weren't they only thrice weekly this past summer?

SNN-BOS was 4x weekly last summer too (albeit operating Tue, Thu, Sat, Sun). This summer it will operate Mon, Wed, Fri, Sun.

Truth be told, EI could probably fill a daily A332 from SNN (as they have done in the past) but this would eat up yields and would be at the expense of EI's SNN-JFK route.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: ScottB
Posted 2013-01-07 14:56:05 and read 7476 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 26):
Their biggest mistake was to stick WN in terminal E

Putting WN in Terminal E isn't a mistake when one considers that WN uses the domestic-only gates E1A-E1E. Having those gates available would do nothing to alleviate the gate shortage at peak times. Once the new United gates are open in Terminal B, however, it might be possible to have the AF and AZ flights depart from Terminal A thus enabling more convenient connections from DL. With preclearance being available at DUB & SNN, it would also be feasible for EI to use a different terminal at BOS.

Quoting icelandair75w (Thread starter):
Showing a 1816 arrival, then a ground stop of 15 hours, 38 minutes for a departure at 0954 the following morning back to PTY.

Seems like awfully poor utilization for a 73G. But I guess if they're limited by hub bank arrival/departure times, it is what it is.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 30):
I would have expected many other routes before BOS, routes such as:

MSY, ATL, TPA, SFO, SEA, DFW

ATL would be a challenge with DL already offering ATL-PTY. SFO is probably just outside the economic range of the 73G given winds on the westbound leg and likely delays at SFO. SEA can't be done non-stop with any reasonable payload. PTY is very well-located for connections from the U.S. East Coast to South America.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: AmricanShamrok
Posted 2013-01-07 15:33:03 and read 7417 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 37):
With preclearance being available at DUB & SNN, it would also be feasible for EI to use a different terminal at BOS.

Don't forget the earlier summer DUB-BOS flight does not preclear due to congestion at DUB so if EI does move terminals it would still have to have at least one daily arrival into Terminal E...unless they find some way of preclearing it at DUB.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: 2travel2know2
Posted 2013-01-07 18:04:03 and read 7287 times.

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 22):
Was the 1:00-5:00 flight leaving BOS or PTY?

Flights would arrive and depart between 0100 and 0500h, that's what it meant

Quoting ScottB (Reply 37):
Seems like awfully poor utilization for a 73G. But I guess if they're limited by hub bank arrival/departure times, it is what it is.

Poor utilization to BOS not having Port of entry staff to work 0100-0500h.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 30):
Very surprising, shows how much CM and Panama in general have grown. I would have expected many other routes before BOS, routes such as:

MSY, ATL, TPA, SFO, SEA, DFW

I'd have added FLL, HOU (if they get an in-terminal F.I.S.) and maybe even JAX.
For some reason I find STL becoming a CM destination candidate someday.
If US remains in Star Alliance, then US PHX-PTY, no need for CM to fly to PHX.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 31):
Don't think SEA is doable n/s.

I'd guess if CM wants SEA, CM will fly the route via GUA.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 37):
ATL would be a challenge with DL already offering ATL-PTY. SFO is probably just outside the economic range of the 73G given winds on the westbound leg and likely delays at SFO. SEA can't be done non-stop with any reasonable payload.

Agree with ATL, CM to ATL will be very doubtful, and PTY-ATL if flown with E190, wouldn't be the kind of product CM may want for ATL.
IMHO, DFW would stand a better chance to see CM before ATL.
SFO may be flow with a B737-700 with sky interior and a configuration with a few less passengers than the standard CM B737-700 (more business class, less economy). But it's true that there'll be a few times a CM B737-700 might have to make tech-stops en-route to SFO, but from an operational or passenger point of view, flying a B737-700 from PTY to SFO isn't as bad as people think.
CM B737 delivery flights are flown non-stop from Boeing field to PTY, albeit with 50-60 or so passengers. If CM wants to serve SEA, very likely GUA would love that flight to be routed to their airport. Mexico wouldn't give CM 5th freedom traffic rights.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: alphaomega
Posted 2013-01-07 18:39:37 and read 7239 times.

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 22):
Quoting alphaomega (Reply 21):
Their initial schedule was denied landing rights by CBP as they wanted to operate 0100-0500,

Was the 1:00-5:00 flight leaving BOS or PTY?

Sorry - times are through BOS, so 0100 arrival and 0500 departure.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 26):
Also, don't forget that AA, DL, and B6 ops at terminal E are only for arrivals so they don't sit at the gates for very long at all.

DL sits at Terminal E forever because Massport allows them to clean and de-cater at Terminal E before towing. Winter is OK, but the summer schedules cause problems with this, so forcing them to tow to A earlier would help with freeing up gate space at peak times.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: icelandair75w
Posted 2013-01-07 19:14:50 and read 7196 times.

Quoting alphaomega (Reply 40):
DL sits at Terminal E forever because Massport allows them to clean and de-cater at Terminal E before towing. Winter is OK, but the summer schedules cause problems with this, so forcing them to tow to A earlier would help with freeing up gate space at peak times.

It's not that Massport allows them, it is that USCBP required them to do so due to the international cleaning/trash/catering. They are required to rid the aircraft of all international trash and whatnot before they are allowed to leave the international terminal. A feasible alternative would be to tow the aircraft to North Cargo for cleaning after they have deplaned the aircraft but that might also be an issue for all I know.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 39):
Poor utilization to BOS not having Port of entry staff to work 0100-0500h.

Agreed but they do not staff that period unless there is an irregular operation anticipated i.e. a scheduled charter or known delay of a scheduled flight.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 37):
Once the new United gates are open in Terminal B, however, it might be possible to have the AF and AZ flights depart from Terminal A thus enabling more convenient connections from DL. With preclearance being available at DUB & SNN, it would also be feasible for EI to use a different terminal at BOS.

When the UA gates are open in Terminal B, the rumors that run around the airport (again, rumors) is that WN/FL will move to the PMCO gates at Terminal A, and jetBlue will take the remaining Terminal C gates. Another rumor is that they will make gates E1A-E1E accessible from both the Terminal E security checkpoints and Terminal C checkpoint, making it possible for B6 to utilize the E1A-E1E gates as well. Wouldn't surprise me with the current growth of B6 in BOS over the past few years.

I've also heard (albeit it may not be true) that foreign registered aircraft (non-N numbered) are not permitted to operate from any terminal other than Terminal E. I'm not sure how that makes sense, as AC is pre-cleared and operates their C- registered aircraft from Terminal B. Another thing that would not allow AF/AZ to operate at Terminal A is the obvious lack of a CBP FIS at that terminal. Originally I've heard they wanted to open a small FIS for Delta's flights in Terminal A but I highly doubt that would ever happen.


Regardless of anything, deviating from the original plan of the expansion doesn't particularly make sense. They stopped the expansion for whatever reason however, which doesn't make sense to me. It does get extremely busy at the terminal in the evening, and expanding would rid the tenants and users of the terminal from having to hold on 15R or somewhere else on the field for the next gate to become available. This past summer I've seen gate holds of up to an hour! Quite absurd, and one would think if that was repetitive they'd get the hint that they need to do something about it.

On a secondary note, carriers from Asia and South America as well as the Middle East should definitely jump on the opportunity to operate to Boston where the morning gate usage is basically only JL and SY (FI in the summer time). I feel that these airlines do have an opportunity for success with an operation in Boston, regardless of the JFK being so nearby.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2013-01-07 19:21:04 and read 7192 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 30):
Very surprising, shows how much CM and Panama in general have grown. I would have expected many other routes before BOS, routes such as:

MSY, ATL, TPA, SFO, SEA, DFW

Not that surprising... BOS is probably the largest urban area in the US without a connection to Latin America. Also CM can serve the market with a narrowbody, so fewer seats to fill.

ATL, SFO or DFW are major markets but already more competition. MSY or TPA are much smaller markets.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: adamh8297
Posted 2013-01-08 04:05:55 and read 7016 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 42):
ATL, SFO or DFW are major markets but already more competition. MSY or TPA are much smaller markets.

Wouldn't UA be better off serving SFO-PTY with a 757?

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: 2travel2know2
Posted 2013-01-08 05:28:05 and read 6960 times.

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 43):
Wouldn't UA be better off serving SFO-PTY with a 757?

Yes.
Specially if UA schedule matches hub banks at SFO and PTY

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-01-08 07:54:45 and read 6860 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 37):
Putting WN in Terminal E isn't a mistake when one considers that WN uses the domestic-only gates E1A-E1E.

They're in the same terminal. It would be a lot cheaper to convert those gates to international or multi-use gates than it is to build an extension to terminal E to the north in order to accomodate growth. So in that regard it was a mistake. That's 5 potential international gates right there with minimal investment.

Quoting icelandair75w (Reply 41):
When the UA gates are open in Terminal B, the rumors that run around the airport (again, rumors) is that WN/FL will move to the PMCO gates at Terminal A, and jetBlue will take the remaining Terminal C gates. Another rumor is that they will make gates E1A-E1E accessible from both the Terminal E security checkpoints and Terminal C checkpoint, making it possible for B6 to utilize the E1A-E1E gates as well. Wouldn't surprise me with the current growth of B6 in BOS over the past few years.

This make a whole lot of sense but then again, I'll believe it when I see it. We are moving in that direction though so there's hope.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: jcarv
Posted 2013-01-08 08:32:42 and read 6817 times.

I agree with airbazar!

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: zrs70
Posted 2013-01-08 08:40:53 and read 6817 times.

Quoting icelandair75w (Reply 41):
I've also heard (albeit it may not be true) that foreign registered aircraft (non-N numbered) are not permitted to operate from any terminal other than Terminal E. I'm not sure how that makes sense, as AC is pre-cleared and operates their C- registered aircraft from Terminal B. Another thing that would not allow AF/AZ to operate at Terminal A is the obvious lack of a CBP FIS at that terminal. Originally I've heard they wanted to open a small FIS for Delta's flights in Terminal A but I highly doubt that would ever happen.

Perhaps this is a new(er) development?

In the past 20-25 years, I recall the following:

Virgin departing from B
Sabena departing from B and C
Alitalia departing from C

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: ScottB
Posted 2013-01-08 09:49:09 and read 6774 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 45):
It would be a lot cheaper to convert those gates to international or multi-use gates than it is to build an extension to terminal E to the north in order to accomodate growth. So in that regard it was a mistake. That's 5 potential international gates right there with minimal investment.

I think you seriously underestimate the cost of converting those gates to support international service. Also, the real estate, with E1A-E1E being inside the curve of the terminal structures, would never be able to support five international widebody gates there. WN's aircraft are already parked pretty tightly at those gates and those are just 737's. E1E probably can't take anything larger than a 757 due to the proximity of C-11 behind it. At best, two or three widebody gates could fit in that space -- and it would require some serious reconstruction. Might as well just extend the terminal in the other direction as the master plan indicated.

Quoting icelandair75w (Reply 41):
Another thing that would not allow AF/AZ to operate at Terminal A is the obvious lack of a CBP FIS at that terminal. Originally I've heard they wanted to open a small FIS for Delta's flights in Terminal A but I highly doubt that would ever happen.

AF & AZ (and probably VS in future) would operate at Terminal A just as DL operates its international flights -- arrivals at Terminal A with the aircraft then towed over to A for departures. I agree that a better solution would be for a CBP station at Terminal A as well, with DL operating four daily European arrivals in the summer. Consolidating AF, AZ & VS with DL at Terminal A with a CBP facility would allow for eight daily turns to be offloaded from Terminal E.

Quoting icelandair75w (Reply 41):
When the UA gates are open in Terminal B, the rumors that run around the airport (again, rumors) is that WN/FL will move to the PMCO gates at Terminal A, and jetBlue will take the remaining Terminal C gates.

My impression was that the whole point of building the expansion/connector between the halves of Terminal B was to free up the UA pier of Terminal C for B6. I'm not sure that the 4 mainline PMCO gates at Terminal A would be sufficient for the combined WN/FL operation, though. The RJ gates at A9-A12 aren't of any use to WN.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 39):
I'd have added FLL, HOU (if they get an in-terminal F.I.S.) and maybe even JAX.

I doubt CM would add PTY-HOU; I doubt there's enough demand from Houston to justify service to both airports from PTY and the HOU service would struggle in the face of the Star hub-to-hub service between PTY & IAH. Moreover, it seems that UA is very sensitive about competition at HOU...

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: deltairlines
Posted 2013-01-08 10:04:08 and read 6771 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 48):
I'm not sure that the 4 mainline PMCO gates at Terminal A would be sufficient for the combined WN/FL operation, though. The RJ gates at A9-A12 aren't of any use to WN.

They have about 28 daily departures (combined) out of BOS. Only time four gates would present an issue (under the current schedule) is in the morning push.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-01-08 10:47:39 and read 6705 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 48):
I think you seriously underestimate the cost of converting those gates to support international service. Also, the real estate, with E1A-E1E being inside the curve of the terminal structures, would never be able to support five international widebody gates there.

I might be underestimating it but I don't need to be an expert to know it would be a whole lot cheaper than expanding terminal E on the opposite side. And obviously no, they wouldn't be widebody gates. B6's growing network to the Caribbean and Central America as well as other carriers like Copa would fit into those gates quite nicely. I wouldn't be surprised if BOS sees more narrowbody international arrivals than widebody arrivals.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2013-01-08 11:04:04 and read 6689 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 48):
I doubt there's enough demand from Houston to justify service to both airports from PTY

WIth CMs hub at the other end and Houston's growign popularity with LatAmericans....there is more than enough demand.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: 2travel2know2
Posted 2013-01-08 13:55:27 and read 6624 times.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 51):
WIth CMs hub at the other end and Houston's growign popularity with LatAmericans....there is more than enough demand.

Also remember that CM link was with Continental Houston not with Chicago managed UA. The E190 may be ideal for PTY-HOU to start, but be reminded that an E190 - even with 2-2 seating - is an inferior product than a B737 with in-flight entreatment for a 4 hour flight.
CM relation with UA is a tricky one now, I didn't see UA jumping into ORD-PTY but UA left that route to CM. It'd be quite a guess that UA will do the same with SFO-PTY and CM will have to fly the route with B737-700.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: SJOtoLIR
Posted 2013-01-08 17:56:36 and read 6500 times.

Quoting icelandair75w (Thread starter):
Showing a 1816 arrival, then a ground stop of 15 hours, 38 minutes for a departure at 0954 the following morning back to PTY.
Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 3):
Which is the reason for such a long ground stop? I imagine it is just to reduce connection times in PTY, but isn't there any other way to optimize it?

I ignore the rotation of their 73Gs.
The airline utilizes some 73Gs for some overnight flights such as CM PTY-REC and CM PTY-MVD. One of these 73Gs might be immediately sent to CM PTY-BOS and the maintenance cycle should be completed once in Boston.




.

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 24):
B6 would start BOS-SJO or BOS-GUA before PTY.

The coverage of B6 in Central America is quite limited being B6 MCO-SJO and B6 JFK-LIR their only isolated services.
Service to Liberia will be apparently dropped in June.




.

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 29):
How long has CM & UA been flying non-stop from the NYC area to PTY? A few years is my guess, which is why the numbers are so much larger.

CM PTY-JFK began in 2004.
Their frequencies were upgraded from 7x to 14x weekly last year.




.

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 43):
Wouldn't UA be better off serving SFO-PTY with a 757?

Agreed.
LA LIM-SFO with 763 has demonstrated how the demand between the Bay area and South America really exists there.




.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 48):
I doubt CM would add PTY-HOU; I doubt there's enough demand from Houston to justify service to both airports from PTY

Not necessarily.
Notice that UA EWR-PTY is 9x weekly whereas CM PTY-JFK is 14x weekly at this time. I remember how CM was hardly criticized once they announced their services to New York City.
Nonetheless, I'm not implying that CM is desperately asking for HOU services.

Regards.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: abrelosojos
Posted 2013-01-08 18:09:49 and read 6476 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 3):
Which is the reason for such a long ground stop? I imagine it is just to reduce connection times in PTY, but isn't there any other way to optimize it? Is this the way CM works in JFK or other stations in the US?
Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 8):
Interesting time to arrive BOS, only to let it sit the next 15.5 hours. Boston's only international terminal, E, isn't that big and arriving around 6pm is heavy European traffic. Gonna have to unload and repark remotely quick. Guess AA dropping their LHR arrivals made some room?

= It is actually very clever scheduling that capitalizes the key bank in PTY and minimizes costs by making crew overnight to a little over min. rest. CM also has a very unique way of measuring utilization by "time away from base".

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 10):

Great for BOS but the Latin fares out of BOS are dreadful

= Oh come on. Your little airline is going to be the first to lose   ... that through product to GRU has quite a few connections onwards. And, they might be lower yielding, but it helps sustain the frequency for the JCL guests. I don't think that is in super danger, but CM will and has been getting lower JCL guests away from CO (I mean UA) small but steadily. Moreover, with CM's cost structure, they will be able to make a dent.

Good move by CM. Besides, this will make the commute back "home" for their consultants easier   ...

Saludos,
A.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: aviateur
Posted 2013-01-08 18:17:06 and read 6462 times.

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 13):
Once upon a time, BOS was the second biggest european gateway city. Now, it is dwarfed by others.

I remember, when I was a kid (and later too)....

Multiple Braniff 747s and DC-8s departing nightly for Europe
Multiple Northwest 747s departing nightly for Europe, and then, into the 1990s, a mix of DC-10s and 747s
Pan Am, BOAC, TAP, Sabena, Olympic, Laker....


Now as for COPA... PTY-BOS strikes me as a very strange idea. I can't imagine there is much of a market for such a flight, unless onward connections are somehow REALLY convenient.


PS

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: SJOtoLIR
Posted 2013-01-08 18:46:05 and read 6435 times.

Quoting aviateur (Reply 55):
Now as for COPA... PTY-BOS strikes me as a very strange idea. I can't imagine there is much of a market for such a flight, unless onward connections are somehow REALLY convenient.

CM PTY-BOS might be mostly loaded with passengers coming from Central and South America.
CM PTY-LAS began last year and their weekly frequencies were rapidly upgraded. The Panamanian flagship airline has demonstrated progress in their US services lately. CM PTY-LAX goes to 21x weekly in July.

Regards.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: adamh8297
Posted 2013-01-08 19:17:49 and read 6395 times.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 53):
The coverage of B6 in Central America is quite limited being B6 MCO-SJO and B6 JFK-LIR their only isolated services.
Service to Liberia will be apparently dropped in June.

Is the service drop seasonal? I just tried August dates on their website and its flying 5 times a week = X23

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: SJOtoLIR
Posted 2013-01-08 19:49:23 and read 6351 times.

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 57):
Is the service drop seasonal? I just tried August dates on their website and its flying 5 times a week = X23

Good news !
The first time I checked the sources, I didn't find further information beyond June.

Regards.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: adamh8297
Posted 2013-01-09 06:46:21 and read 6193 times.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 58):
Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 58):

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 57):
Is the service drop seasonal? I just tried August dates on their website and its flying 5 times a week = X23

Good news !
The first time I checked the sources, I didn't find further information beyond June.

Regards.

Would love to see B6 try 1-2x weekly BOS-SJO but they don't even serve JFK-SJO and its a much bigger market served by only UA from EWR twice daily and LACSA once daily from JFK.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: 2travel2know2
Posted 2013-01-09 06:58:00 and read 6178 times.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 53):
One of these 73Gs might be immediately sent to CM PTY-BOS and the maintenance cycle should be completed once in Boston.

CM may be quite foolish if it'd not take advantage of those long turn-around times for some kind of aircraft maintenance.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2013-01-09 08:01:22 and read 6127 times.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 60):
CM may be quite foolish if it'd not take advantage of those long turn-around times for some kind of aircraft maintenance.

I know they use the RONs in GUA to do routine maintenance there....stuff like washing the aircraft etc

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: SJOtoLIR
Posted 2013-01-09 21:57:41 and read 5963 times.

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 59):
Would love to see B6 try 1-2x weekly BOS-SJO but they don't even serve JFK-SJO and its a much bigger market served by only UA from EWR twice daily and LACSA once daily from JFK.

I'm not sure if B6 BOS-SJO or B6 BOS-PTY would be the most suitable addition as all the passengers must end in Central America.
This history is totally different on CM BOS-PTY as pointing out above.

Regards.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-01-09 22:05:49 and read 5955 times.

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 59):

AA also serves JFK-SJO daily as well I believe.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: adamh8297
Posted 2013-01-10 06:35:16 and read 5903 times.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 62):
Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 59):
Would love to see B6 try 1-2x weekly BOS-SJO but they don't even serve JFK-SJO and its a much bigger market served by only UA from EWR twice daily and LACSA once daily from JFK.

I'm not sure if B6 BOS-SJO or B6 BOS-PTY would be the most suitable addition as all the passengers must end in Central America.
This history is totally different on CM BOS-PTY as pointing out above.

Regards.

BOS-SJO is about 4 times larger than BOS-PTY right now and they serve a slighty smaller market BOS-SXM with 1-3x weekly depending on the season. B6's goal would be to capture a good portion of the originating BOS traffic to SJO. They may fill the plane with a few connections.

A Non-stop to SJO would stimulate the market. Look at the increase of BOS-CUN/PUJ/AUA nonstops and the growth in the market over recent years. I think 2x weekly Wed/Sat service would work. There are a lot of people who like to do 10-day tours of Costa Rica.

Granted, with CM entering the picture there is even more 1-stop competition on BOS-SJO. I checked ITA and though BOS-PTY-SJO is the longest routing (with the exception of BOS-IAH-SJO) the total travel times are equivalent to services offered by UA/AA/US/DL/NK/B6. Also, the length of BOS-SJO may be one of the drawbacks right now and B6 is satisfied enough sending their BOS passengers via MCO.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-01-10 06:47:53 and read 5903 times.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 62):
I'm not sure if B6 BOS-SJO or B6 BOS-PTY would be the most suitable addition as all the passengers must end in Central America.

   I think B6 has bigger fish to fry, from BOS. I would be surprised if there aren't bigger unserved markets in the Caribbean and Mexico alone. The largest immigrant populations in Mass. from C.America come from Guatemala and El Salvador so I would expect B6 to serve those two countries before they venture further south. Another market with a very large and established immigrant population in NE is the Azores. Im my opinion that's a market that is begging for a LCC.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: adamh8297
Posted 2013-01-10 07:31:05 and read 5872 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 65):
   I think B6 has bigger fish to fry, from BOS. I would be surprised if there aren't bigger unserved markets in the Caribbean and Mexico alone. The largest immigrant populations in Mass. from C.America come from Guatemala and El Salvador so I would expect B6 to serve those two countries before they venture further south. Another market with a very large and established immigrant population in NE is the Azores. Im my opinion that's a market that is begging for a LCC.

Out of the top 75 international destinations - Here are markets currently not served with a non stop flight from BOS and can be served by B6 equipment. The number is passenger numbers for 2011 and the percentage change is a comparison to 2003.


27. Mexico City, Mexico 45,778 +7.8%

34. Guatemala City, Guatemala 41,262 +0.2%

35. San Jose, Costa Rica 40,621 +36.9%

48. Port-au-prince, Haiti 26,760 -26.1%

53. San Salvador, El Salvador 24,555 -25.1%

62. Calgary, Canada 20,173 -5.9%



2 slightly bigger unserved markets - MEX and GUA - but SJO is trending upward at a higher rate.

Less than daily service would work well for GUA and PAP as well. MEX would have a slight bigger business component and would require better frequency which the market may not support too well.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: ScottB
Posted 2013-01-10 12:55:02 and read 5773 times.

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 66):
27. Mexico City, Mexico 45,778 +7.8%

MEX was tried by AM and failed. And AM has a proper hub in MEX, while the location of BOS offers few suitable connections.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 60):
CM may be quite foolish if it'd not take advantage of those long turn-around times for some kind of aircraft maintenance.

It depends on how costly it would be to have maintenance done in BOS; I'd expect they'd have to contract it out to AA & DL who still have maintenance facilities at BOS.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 53):
Notice that UA EWR-PTY is 9x weekly whereas CM PTY-JFK is 14x weekly at this time. I remember how CM was hardly criticized once they announced their services to New York City.
Nonetheless, I'm not implying that CM is desperately asking for HOU services.

The difference between EWR and JFK as sub-markets is far more significant than the difference between IAH & HOU.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 65):
Another market with a very large and established immigrant population in NE is the Azores. Im my opinion that's a market that is begging for a LCC.

That's essentially the function being carried out by SATA on its BOS-PDL Azores Express flights. $250 each way isn't unreasonable for a 2400-mile flight! It would also require ETOPS authorization.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: SJOtoLIR
Posted 2013-01-10 17:01:09 and read 5675 times.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 63):
AA also serves JFK-SJO daily as well I believe.

Correct. However, AA JFK-SJO 7x weekly hasn't operated on year-round basis lately.
TA SJO-JFK 6x weekly suddenly matched their weekly frequencies, in order to face AA JFK-SJO.




.

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 64):
BOS-SJO is about 4 times larger than BOS-PTY right now

I think the SJO-BOS may work with limited weekly frequencies.
SJO currently sustains non-stop flights to "secondary markets" such as Phoenix, Philadelphia and Charlotte. Some of them are not operating on year-round basis.




.

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 66):
27. Mexico City, Mexico 45,778 +7.8%

34. Guatemala City, Guatemala 41,262 +0.2%

35. San Jose, Costa Rica 40,621 +36.9%

48. Port-au-prince, Haiti 26,760 -26.1%

53. San Salvador, El Salvador 24,555 -25.1%

62. Calgary, Canada 20,173 -5.9%

Notice that Panama City hasn't mentioned in that list.
Even so, CM PTY-BOS 7x weekly is ready to start their commercial operations in July.
Thus, CM doesn't rely in the O&D market into PTY-BOS. Outward connections is the key for the success as they're doing in Las Vegas.




.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 67):
The difference between EWR and JFK as sub-markets is far more significant than the difference between IAH & HOU.

My former point consisted in the strange maneuver back in 2004, when Copa Airlines was forced to fly at JFK, in order to protect the market attended by the former Continental Airlines, in those days: CO EWR-PTY.
Copa Airlines might experience a similar situation if they would fly to Houston by means of their own planes.

Regards.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: 2travel2know2
Posted 2013-01-10 17:26:30 and read 5660 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 67):
The difference between EWR and JFK as sub-markets is far more significant than the difference between IAH & HOU.
Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 68):
My former point consisted in the strange maneuver back in 2004, when Copa Airlines was forced to fly at JFK, in order to protect the market attended by the former Continental Airlines, in those days: CO EWR-PTY.

The excuse CM gave to the public as of why the were flying to JFK was that the Panamanian PTY-NYC O/D was JFK-centric from way back (PanAm, Eastern, Air Panama, Braniff). People in the business knew there was something else to that which CM wasn't saying.
If CM makes it to Houston, it'll be to HOU, because UA already flies IAH-PTY but CM could always claim there's a demand from people in southern Houston to/from PTY/South America.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 68):
Outward connections is the key for the success as they're doing in Las Vegas.

Or CM has been doing for some time now in MCO.
IMHO, PTY-LAS should have started only a while after PTY-MCO became an stellar route for CM.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2013-01-10 18:23:04 and read 5608 times.

Just to begin with, HOU does not have customs or inmigration, and they will get only them when the new Southwest terminal (for WN/FL) is completed.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: SJOtoLIR
Posted 2013-01-10 18:43:07 and read 5592 times.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 69):
PTY-LAS should have started only a while after PTY-MCO became an stellar route for CM.

CM PTY-MCO 21x weekly is a representative item about the sustainability of one market based basically in outward connections.
For example, SCL, EZE and LIM are not getting scheduled flights heading to Orlando for the time being. On the other hand, the possibility of multiple frequencies on [CM SCL-PTY + CM EZE-PTY + CM LIM-PTY] and immediately CM PTY-MCO is part of the success of such route. By the way, CM PTY-MCO goes from 21x to 28x weekly on July 02nd.
Back to the former point of this thread, it has been already pointing out how the possibility of any B6 BOS-PTY is quite limited at this time and supported on the low O&D traffic as well.
However, CM PTY-BOS 7x weekly might have better chances based on its vast network transporting passengers mostly from several points in South America, in order to load that new flight.

Regards,

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: 2travel2know2
Posted 2013-01-11 05:41:50 and read 5484 times.

A bit off-topic here:

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 71):
For example, SCL, EZE and LIM are not getting scheduled flights heading to Orlando for the time being.

But IMHO, due to connecting traffic and local O/D LIM may be able to support an A319 daily non-stop to MCO, most likely by LATAM.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 70):
Just to begin with, HOU does not have customs or inmigration, and they will get only them when the new Southwest terminal (for WN/FL) is completed.

Which means that only then HOU may see CM land over-there.
Haven't heard of HOU rushing to squeeze a F.I.S. next to an existing gate right-now., before the new WN terminal is built.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2013-01-11 06:41:04 and read 5458 times.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 72):
Which means that only then HOU may see CM land over-there.
Haven't heard of HOU rushing to squeeze a F.I.S. next to an existing gate right-now., before the new WN terminal is built.

Which means that CM would use the terminal and facilities that Southwest has paid for its own use... instead of using IAH like every other single foreign carrier in Houston. Definitely it makes a lot of sense to me. (!)

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: 2travel2know2
Posted 2013-01-11 07:31:17 and read 5423 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 73):
Which means that CM would use the terminal and facilities that Southwest has paid for its own use... instead of using IAH like every other single foreign carrier in Houston. Definitely it makes a lot of sense to me. (!)

I read on another topic that HOU had requested WN that one of the future international gates will be of common use.
It'd surely not be the first time an airline would pay to use a gate at its competitors terminal (that if WN is to start PTY from HOU).

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-01-11 08:28:23 and read 5390 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 67):
That's essentially the function being carried out by SATA on its BOS-PDL Azores Express flights. $250 each way isn't unreasonable for a 2400-mile flight! It would also require ETOPS authorization.

True but B6 would run SATA out of town on that route, in every category   And with a smaller A320 they might even be able to serve both PDL and TER from BOS. But we're now getting off topic  

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: adamh8297
Posted 2013-01-11 13:03:48 and read 5322 times.

Trying to keep this on topic-

Copa has not made an announcement of the flight yet and there are no hints of it on their site though you can price flights on kayak and ITA and it even shows up on United award flight searches.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2013-01-11 13:34:09 and read 5325 times.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 69):
If CM makes it to Houston, it'll be to HOU, because UA already flies IAH-PTY but CM could always claim there's a demand from people in southern Houston to/from PTY/South America.

If they don't do it WN will.....Personally i know a few Panamanians that live in the Clear lake Area of Houston that currently fly UA...but it WN opens up they will fly WN for the convenience factor. So IMHO it is a situation that either *A try to hold on to these people thru a Possible CM flight or lose them all together.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 70):
Just to begin with, HOU does not have customs or inmigration, and they will get only them when the new Southwest terminal (for WN/FL) is completed.

Which is actually not that far off when you think about it.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2013-01-11 13:44:26 and read 5317 times.

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 76):

Good prices and connection times to Brazil (+- $1,000 is not bad from BOS), Colombia and Peru. I am yet a bit skeptical about the outbound flights to LATAM... you basically lose the whole day flying and arrive at + midnight to GIG or GRU.

Still you can probably get an outbound night flight with UA via IAD or IAH and the return with Copa.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: adamh8297
Posted 2013-01-12 11:45:30 and read 5125 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 78):
Good prices and connection times to Brazil (+- $1,000 is not bad from BOS), Colombia and Peru. I am yet a bit skeptical about the outbound flights to LATAM... you basically lose the whole day flying and arrive at + midnight to GIG or GRU.

CM must be going for the VFR folks then.

Got $880 for CNF on a recent search for July. AA was $1580 (with better times - red eye in both directions, shorter layovers)

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-01-12 11:51:30 and read 5123 times.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 69):
If CM makes it to Houston, it'll be to HOU, because UA already flies IAH-PTY but CM could always claim there's a demand from people in southern Houston to/from PTY/South America.

Crazy talk. Is CM flying to MDW rather than ORD? How about TA?

How many latin american carriers are serving BWI rather than IAD? ONT rather than LAX? FLL rather than MIA?

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: SJOtoLIR
Posted 2013-01-13 06:35:55 and read 4970 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 80):
Crazy talk. Is CM flying to MDW rather than ORD? How about TA?

Neither TACA nor Copa Airlines is Volaris.
CM PTY-ORD just started in December 2011 and their frequencies are not surpassing the daily basis yet.
For example, CM PTY-MIA goes to 35x weekly on June 17th and the airline is not even taking into account the possibility of serving FLL as an alternative airport for MIA instead.

Regards.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: 2travel2know2
Posted 2013-01-13 17:18:28 and read 4831 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 80):
Crazy talk. Is CM flying to MDW rather than ORD? How about TA?

CM got to ORD before UA even thought of an ORD-PTY.

Quote:
How many Latin American carriers are serving BWI rather than IAD? ONT rather than LAX? FLL rather than MIA?

No Latin American airline is flying to BWI, ONT or FLL while not flying to the main international airport of that metro area. However, Colombian Aires, before LAN took over it, flew to FLL but not to MIA.
In the hypothetical case that UA was flying on its own metal ORD/IAD/LAX - PTY instead of CM and the Chicago/Washington DC/Los Angeles - PTY (hub) markets demanded it extra capacity, surely CM would have at least studied flying to their alternate airports MDW(MKE)/BWI/ONT(SNA).
I'd even guess PVD made CM a presentation when CM was studying to open BOS.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 81):
CM PTY-MIA goes to 35x weekly on June 17th and the airline is not even taking into account the possibility of serving FLL as an alternative airport for MIA instead.

There are cruise days @ Port Everglades when CM could easily fill an E190 with cruise passengers (no need to mention the ship or cruise line).
I'd think that the cruise lines haven't pressured CM enough so to offer some kind of weekly frequencies between PTY-FLL yet.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-01-13 18:38:43 and read 4792 times.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 82):
In the hypothetical case that UA was flying on its own metal ORD/IAD/LAX - PTY instead of CM and the Chicago/Washington DC/Los Angeles - PTY (hub) markets demanded it extra capacity, surely CM would have at least studied flying to their alternate airports MDW(MKE)/BWI/ONT(SNA).

Studied it? Sure. But why in the world would they do it? There are only a few examples of legacy carriers serving the secondary airports. MX was at MDW for a while, but that was on an extremely bulky VFR route that is probably 10 times the size of most US-Panama city pairs. Apples and oranges.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: 2travel2know2
Posted 2013-01-14 05:30:09 and read 4712 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 83):
Studied it? Sure. But why in the world would they do it? There are only a few examples of legacy carriers serving the secondary airports.

In the specific case of a PTY-HOU and PTY-FLL, those routes could be flown on CM smallest aircraft, of course if given there's some Houston and Ft. Lauderdale O/D demand.

Quote:
MX was at MDW for a while, but that was on an extremely bulky VFR route that is probably 10 times the size of most US-Panama city pairs. Apples and oranges.

But remember Panama isn't where the traffic is, PTY airport CM hub is, be bulky VFR traffic or not.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-01-14 05:34:56 and read 4703 times.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 84):
But remember Panama isn't where the traffic is,

It's not like HOU-COR/MVD is going to make HOU-PTY make sense . . .

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: 2travel2know2
Posted 2013-01-14 06:54:25 and read 4675 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 85):
It's not like HOU-COR/MVD is going to make HOU-PTY make sense . . .

Agree on that
  

Sure, back to the original topic, there was no way PTY alone could have supported alone non-stop to BOS,, I dare to say not even year-around once/twice per week.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: 777jaah
Posted 2013-01-14 09:47:35 and read 4637 times.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 86):
Sure, back to the original topic, there was no way PTY alone could have supported alone non-stop to BOS,, I dare to say not even year-around once/twice per week.

With all due respect, PTY could not sustain all those frequencies CM has to the continent by itself. People around here often fail to understand the operation CM handles in PTY, making it an extremly efficient hub for pax around the continent. I've flown with them a couple of times, and have stayed in Panama City too, and an indication of how big connecting tfraffic is, are the small lines at inmigration.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: SJOtoLIR
Posted 2013-01-14 19:09:19 and read 4546 times.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 82):
CM enough so to offer some kind of weekly frequencies between PTY-FLL yet.

From five years ago approximately, Spirit flies the FLL-PTY sector thrice a week and based purely on the O&D traffic. It wasn't precisely a big smash !




.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 86):
there was no way PTY alone could have supported alone non-stop to BOS,, I dare to say not even year-around once/twice per week.

Agreed. CM PTY-BOS necessarily needs the power of its hub at PTY, in order to make business with the coming CM PTY-BOS.
This is the mechanism of success for CM PTY-LAS as pointing out before.




.

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 87):
People around here often fail to understand the operation CM handles in PTY, making it an extremely efficient hub for pax around the continent. I've flown with them a couple of times, and have stayed in Panama City too, and an indication of how big connecting traffic is

Copa Airlines at PTY has a tremendous advantage over the rest of the Latin American airports: well positioned geographically, the airport is conveniently placed at sea level, no immigration lines for those connecting passengers, no extra security lines -besides their flights heading to the USA-, no competition with any other airline at PTY, available space for their expansion plans and so forth.
Notice that PTY is handling international non-stop flights to some cities that are not possible to find from many other key hubs in Latin America: Recife, Belo Horizonte, Port of Spain, Las Vegas, Manaus, Iquitos, Kingston, San Juan and so forth. We could't forget Boston !

Regards.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2013-01-14 19:26:10 and read 4530 times.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 88):
From five years ago approximately, Spirit flies the FLL-PTY sector thrice a week and based purely on the O&D traffic. It wasn't precisely a big smash !

Spirit, like any other US low-cost, allows and sells connecting flights. So it is not based solely on O&D. And FLL is pretty much their US to Latin America hub.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: 2travel2know2
Posted 2013-01-15 05:28:40 and read 4446 times.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 88):
From five years ago approximately, Spirit flies the FLL-PTY sector thrice a week and based purely on the O&D traffic. It wasn't precisely a big smash !

The suggestion of CM @ FLL has more to do with flying Cruise passengers to/from FLL, not going after NK passengers.
IMHO, if NK was to fly FLL-PTY-FLL daytime, another would be that route performance.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 88):
no competition with any other airline at PTY, available space for their expansion plans and so forth.

There are people in Panama who would love LATAM to set a focus/hub @ PTY just to hurt CM owners.
As as of that of ample space to expand, it's not entirety true. Panama government favours real estate development over
airport expansion, add to that that the land south of the main (longest) runway is protected and that north-east of it is being build-up at an amazing rate.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: 777jaah
Posted 2013-01-15 06:24:53 and read 4423 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 89):
Notice that PTY is handling international non-stop flights to some cities that are not possible to find from many other key hubs in Latin America: Recife, Belo Horizonte, Port of Spain, Las Vegas, Manaus, Iquitos, Kingston, San Juan and so forth. We could't forget Boston !

Agree with you 100%. I've flown with CM to destinations that were not offered by any airline in Colombia in that time, CUN and PUJ come to my mind. That has changed, but still, experienced has told that I always get a quote from CM to any destination, and BOS in much needed. In fact, I'm flying to ORD next october with them, much cheaper and I can avoid both AA and transiting in MIA.

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: AirFrance744
Posted 2013-01-20 06:58:41 and read 4146 times.

Quoting icelandair75w (Reply 12):
This is what I have gathered for next summer for Terminal E:

Aer Lingus - 18x weekly, 14x DUB, 4x SNN
Air France - 2x daily, 1x 747, 1x 777
Alitalia - 1x daily, 332
American - No schedule posted, looks like they dropped CDG/LHR service to BOS completely.
British - 4x daily, 2x 777, 2x 747
Copa Airlines - 1x daily, 737
Delta - 1x daily 757 CDG, 2x daily AMS 1x 332 1x333, 1x daily LHR 767
Iberia - 1x daily 340
Icelandair - 18x weekly 757
Japan Airlines - 1x daily 787
Lufthansa - 2 daily FRA 1x 346 1x343/333, 1x daily MUC 343/346
SATA - Could not figure out their messy schedule, probably 9x weekly as they did last summer with a 313
Sun Country - 13x weekly 737 to MSP....
Swiss - 1x daily 333
TACV - 3x weekly 757
Virgin Atlantic - 1x daily 333


Definitely going to be a busy summer.

Don't forget about Porter 7x daily DH8! Indeed this is going to be a very buy summer here a BOS!

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: adamh8297
Posted 2013-01-22 13:35:24 and read 3913 times.

BOS is finally bookable on CM's website... still no press release!!!!

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: 2travel2know2
Posted 2013-01-23 17:02:03 and read 3722 times.

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 93):
BOS is finally bookable on CM's website... still no press release!!!!

It may not be a CM press release but here's the news CM is bound for BOS from The Boston Globe Boston Panama non-stop

Topic: RE: Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Username: AA94
Posted 2013-01-23 20:22:33 and read 3644 times.

Press release issued this afternoon via email. Available at http://go.rwinds.tk/10Lv7BK.

Congrats to Copa, BOS, and PTY!


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