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Topic: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms
Username: 817Dreamliiner
Posted 2013-01-14 15:04:39 and read 19174 times.

Just posted a while ago from Flightglobal


http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...CFGFG%7Ctwitterfeed%7CFlightglobal

Quote:
American Airlines parent AMR Corp is seeking to convert orders for 20 Boeing 787-9s to a smaller variant, restore the timing of the first 787-9 delivery to 2014 and finalise a deal to buy 42 787s overall by the end of the month.

American Airlines now wants to finalise the deal with 20 787-8s and 22 787-9s, while keeping the option to buy 58 more 787s.

Interesting they want to convert 20 to the -8 version, we could finally see this order firmed up by the end of the month according to the article.

Topic: RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms
Username: flyby519
Posted 2013-01-14 15:28:53 and read 18884 times.

Was there a change to the 737MAX terms as well? (Article link is unavailable now)

Topic: RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms
Username: KC135TopBoom
Posted 2013-01-14 15:37:49 and read 18744 times.

This makes sense for AA since their B-767-300ERs are beginning to get up there in years of service. But what about the B-737MAXs? Does this also effect the orders for the A-319/-321s?

Topic: RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-01-14 15:40:22 and read 18691 times.

The Dallas Morning News has the same info at http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...reamliners-in-november-2014.html/.

New terms are as follows:

● The entering into of a definitive purchase agreement with respect to Boeing 737 MAX aircraft;
● First 787 delivery moved forward to November 2014 and final delivery moved forward to September 2018;
● Certain financing commitments for Boeing 787-8 and 787-9 aircraft and certain Boeing 737-800 aircraft;
● The assumption of certain other aircraft spare parts, support and services agreements;
● A comprehensive settlement of claims among American and Boeing (including affiliates) in AMR’s and American’s bankruptcy case.


Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2):
But what about the B-737MAXs? Does this also effect the orders for the A-319/-321s?


American also said it and Airbus signed a definitive agreement Friday for American’s purchase of 260 aircraft from the Airbus A320 family.

[Edited 2013-01-14 15:40:50]

[Edited 2013-01-14 16:12:37]

Topic: RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2013-01-14 15:47:44 and read 18569 times.

I thought some 787-8s might happen. Kind of surprised it's a conversion rather than an additional order, though.

A 787-9 is an awful lot of plane for many of the markets the 763 serves.

Topic: RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms
Username: prost
Posted 2013-01-14 15:48:50 and read 18542 times.

It sounds like all of the pieces are coming together for their emergence from bankruptcy. I wish the employees and the new shareholders nothing but the best in their reinvigorated future.

Topic: RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms
Username: 817Dreamliiner
Posted 2013-01-14 16:02:09 and read 18373 times.

The flightglobal link is available again, not sure why it stopped working...

The Part about the MAX:

Quote:
The proposed deals announced today by AMR also seek to finalise a purchase agreement for 100 737-8 Max aircraft, but at reduced prices.


[Edited 2013-01-14 16:05:50]

Topic: RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms
Username: boeing773ER
Posted 2013-01-14 16:23:24 and read 18049 times.

Wow I am rather suprised the amount of planes converted. I'm not suprised they converted some, but 20 is a large amount. Maybe we could see a top up order from AA; they have a rather large 767 fleet, also with the range of the 787 they can cover a large amount of the globe from DFW. But 42 is a good amount too.

Topic: RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms
Username: commavia
Posted 2013-01-14 16:27:37 and read 17983 times.

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 7):
I'm not suprised they converted some, but 20 is a large amount.

I imagine it was an economies of scale thing. The -8 and -9 will share most things in common, but there is probably some -8 peculiar equipment, training, etc. that made it worthwhile to get a certain quantity to make financial sense. Plus, the larger the fleet, the more scheduling flexibility that provides for the airline across a broader segment of the overall network.

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 7):
Maybe we could see a top up order from AA; they have a rather large 767 fleet, also with the range of the 787 they can cover a large amount of the globe from DFW. But 42 is a good amount too.

Absolutely. I highly doubt AA will be done at 42. I suspect that long-term the 787 (both -9 and now also -8) will be replacing not only the 767s, but also likely a large chunk of the (if not the entire) 777-200ER fleet. By the time the last of these 787s arrives in September 2018, AA's oldest 777 will be just under 20 years old.

Topic: RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms
Username: boeing773ER
Posted 2013-01-14 17:03:14 and read 17545 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 8):

So AA could eventually have over 100 787's eventually if that statement is true. I can imagine they can open many, many new routes with these planes.

I wonder when carriers will schedule 787's on domestic service, beside the training and fleet familiarization.

Topic: RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms
Username: seahawks7757
Posted 2013-01-14 18:08:57 and read 17123 times.

What slots were they able to get for the 787-8? Any idea when we could see its first one roll out of the factory?

Also read a tweet somewhere they are ordering 2 more 77W's, I am sure all the details will come out at the earnings call.

Topic: RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms
Username: iFlyLOTs
Posted 2013-01-14 19:10:52 and read 16516 times.

Quoting seahawks7757 (Reply 11):
Also read a tweet somewhere they are ordering 2 more 77W's, I am sure all the details will come out at the earnings call.

Yeah I read that too on yahoo.

Link:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/americ...es-firms-orders-787-003414620.html

Topic: RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms
Username: Wingtips56
Posted 2013-01-14 19:12:21 and read 16475 times.

I'm guessing a 787-8 sooner is better at this point than a 787-9 later. Boeing hasn't even begun to build a -9 yet, have they, never mind providing a firm EIS date?

Topic: RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-01-14 19:21:01 and read 16328 times.

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 13):
Boeing hasn't even begun to build a -9 yet, have they, never mind providing a firm EIS date?

Parts for the first 787-9 are arriving at PAE and assembly will commence later this year. EIS with Air New Zealand is planned for next year.

Topic: RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms
Username: ripcordd
Posted 2013-01-14 19:49:38 and read 15864 times.

Those slots were given to AA when they did a hand shake deal on getting the 787's a couple of years back when a lot of people said that Boeing would have 787 slots to give to AA till 2018. Great to see...

Topic: RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms
Username: boilerla
Posted 2013-01-14 19:52:54 and read 15819 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 8):

Absolutely. I highly doubt AA will be done at 42. I suspect that long-term the 787 (both -9 and now also -8) will be replacing not only the 767s, but also likely a large chunk of the (if not the entire) 777-200ER fleet. By the time the last of these 787s arrives in September 2018, AA's oldest 777 will be just under 20 years old.

That's what many expect for UAL as well. With one of the largest 772 fleets, UA will need every one of their 50 options plus more to replace the 763, 764 and 772 with the 788 and 789. If Boeing does offer the 78J, then I could see the entire widebody fleet for AA being 788 and 77W. UAL will have the A359.

Topic: RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms
Username: Chiad
Posted 2013-01-14 23:50:04 and read 13600 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
● The entering into of a definitive purchase agreement with respect to Boeing 737 MAX aircraft;
Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
American also said it and Airbus signed a definitive agreement Friday for American’s purchase of 260 aircraft from the Airbus A320 family.

IMO Airbus did correct by not placing the NEO from AA as firm back in July 2011.

Topic: RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms
Username: 817Dreamliiner
Posted 2013-01-15 00:52:51 and read 13140 times.

Reuters is saying that the order is firm, can anyone confirm this?

Link:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...lines-planes-idUSBRE90E01220130115

[Edited 2013-01-15 01:48:24]

Topic: RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-01-15 01:23:55 and read 12871 times.

Interesting, I did not know Boeing have 787 delivery slots for 2014 available.

Topic: RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms
Username: runway23
Posted 2013-01-15 01:30:17 and read 12807 times.

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 18):

Reuters is saying that the order is firm, cant anyone confirm this?

Link:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...30115

AA and Boeing haven't come out with any press release, I suppose this will happen later today.

I can't seem to understand if the 2 additional 77Ws are new orders or conversions from the 772 order, which means AA now have 15 77Ws on order and either 3 or 5 772s still left.

The 787 order seems to confirm that the 763s will gradually phase out of the fleet quite quickly, unless AA decides to use the 787s for growth and 763s for a role similar to what the A300s used to do. I think either will depend on the state of the economy once they start receiving the 787s.

Topic: RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms
Username: runway23
Posted 2013-01-15 01:33:18 and read 12786 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 19):
Interesting, I did not know Boeing have 787 delivery slots for 2014 available.

It had been rumoured for quite a long time (a couple of years), that AA and Boeing had a gentlemen's agreement whereby AA could get a 787 within 18-20 months of firming their order. There were a few people who questioned whether the Airbus order might have led to this agreement being rescinded, although based on this order it seems this was obviously not the case.

Topic: RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-01-15 01:35:19 and read 12769 times.

Quote:
It had been rumoured for quite a long time (a couple of years)

Thanks, I totally missed that information.

Topic: RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms
Username: moo
Posted 2013-01-15 01:50:56 and read 12634 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
American also said it and Airbus signed a definitive agreement Friday for American’s purchase of 260 aircraft from the Airbus A320 family.

I wonder what that means exactly  

"We have signed a non-binding agreement which dictates terms for when we sign an order"?

"We have signed an MOU which covers terms"?

"We have signed an order"?

The way they've put it reminds me of the political dance of "talking about talking"  

Topic: RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms
Username: runway23
Posted 2013-01-15 02:00:19 and read 12558 times.

Quoting moo (Reply 23):
I wonder what that means exactly

It means firming up the 320 NEO part which was never firm.

And renegotiating the 319/321 part to more favorable terms, as they did yesterday with Boeing for the 737-800 and 737 MAX orders.

It does strike me as somewhat odd that they are renegotiating what were landmark deals at the time, they had already told everyone back then that the terms they got were extremely favorable.

This makes me think that what was actually renegotiated for the 320/737s deals was linked more to financing terms than anything else (like the prices themselves).

Topic: RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms
Username: moo
Posted 2013-01-15 02:23:47 and read 12525 times.

Quoting runway23 (Reply 24):
It means firming up the 320 NEO part which was never firm.

Thats what I am basically asking - is there any indication that it is actually "firm"? The wording of the indication doesn't fill me with confidence - "definitive agreement", whats that really?

Topic: RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms
Username: jfk777
Posted 2013-01-15 05:07:29 and read 11366 times.

Great news for AA to solidify its 787 order with some 787-8 to go with the 787-9's. Its an encouraging sign of AA's future to fund a new long haul fleet.

Topic: RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms
Username: ckfred
Posted 2013-01-15 07:54:44 and read 9238 times.

Quoting runway23 (Reply 21):
It had been rumoured for quite a long time (a couple of years), that AA and Boeing had a gentlemen's agreement whereby AA could get a 787 within 18-20 months of firming their order. There were a few people who questioned whether the Airbus order might have led to this agreement being rescinded, although based on this order it seems this was obviously not the case.

When AA announced it's intent to buy 787s, the agreement with Boeing to confirm the order was predicated on AA getting a new contract with the pilots. If anything, it was a "carrot" to get the pilots to agree to a new contract.

I think the agreement also required AA to firm up an order for each 787 a specified number of months ahead of a production slot. In theory, if negotiations dragged on, AA could release a production slot without cancelling the entire order.

The day APA announced tha the membership had ratified the tentative agreement, it was just a matter of time before AA confirmed the entire 787 order.

My guess is that with the delays in the 787 program, AA was not going to get 787-9s as first proposed under the initial agreement. Rather than wait for 787-9s while dealing with an aging 763 fleet, AA was willing to convert some 787-9s to 787-8s to start of renewal of the widebody fleet. Then, AA can decide what to do about replacing the 772s, when they turn 20 years old.

Topic: RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms
Username: B777ER
Posted 2013-01-15 08:11:16 and read 9171 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 8):
AA's oldest 777 will be just under 20 years old.
Quoting boilerla (Reply 16):
UA will need every one of their 50 options plus more to replace the 763, 764 and 772

At least know we know were DL will be buying their next used aircraft from while AA and UA modernize!

Topic: RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms
Username: B377
Posted 2013-01-15 10:01:52 and read 7786 times.

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 17):
Reuters is saying that the order is firm, can anyone confirm this?

While the agreement on all of the revisions to the original orders, as well as new aircraft added, is finalized between AA/Boeing/Airbus, there is still one important step to be completed before it really is "finalized".

The bankruptcy court has to give its approval and that will not happen until a hearing on 1/23/2013.

Topic: RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms
Username: LDVAviation
Posted 2013-01-15 10:06:12 and read 7748 times.

Quoting moo (Reply 24):
Thats what I am basically asking - is there any indication that it is actually "firm"? The wording of the indication doesn't fill me with confidence - "definitive agreement", whats that really?

Here is how you know it is "firm".

AA is going to ask the bankruptcy court to approve the agreements. Indeed, the agreement with Boeing constitutes not only an order for new planes, but also a settlement of a claim that Boeing had previously made against the AA estate.

Topic: RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms
Username: moo
Posted 2013-01-15 10:18:50 and read 7517 times.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 29):

Thank you, but you aren't saying anything more than others before you - i found the SEC filing an hour ago which answered my question tho.

Topic: RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms
Username: yyz717
Posted 2013-01-15 10:36:15 and read 7283 times.

Quoting runway23 (Reply 19):
I can't seem to understand if the 2 additional 77Ws are new orders or conversions from the 772 order, which means AA now have 15 77Ws on order and either 3 or 5 772s still left.

aerotransport.org is still showing 13 77W's (incl 2 delivered) and 6 772ER's still on order.

Current order mix for non-neo A32x is 15x A319's and 116x A321's (total 131).

Active 762ER fleet now down to 11.

Topic: RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-01-15 13:27:34 and read 5554 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):

The Dallas Morning News has the same info at http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...reamliners-in-november-2014.html/.

New terms are as follows:

● The entering into of a definitive purchase agreement with respect to Boeing 737 MAX aircraft;
● First 787 delivery moved forward to November 2014 and final delivery moved forward to September 2018;
● Certain financing commitments for Boeing 787-8 and 787-9 aircraft and certain Boeing 737-800 aircraft;
● The assumption of certain other aircraft spare parts, support and services agreements;
● A comprehensive settlement of claims among American and Boeing (including affiliates) in AMR’s and American’s bankruptcy case.

This is not really a surprise. It really shows the confidence in the Boeing product despite the recent events that has been in the news with the 787. It also reafirms AA's need to renew their fleet into a more fuel efficient and economical fleet that is their goal in the long run.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 4):
A 787-9 is an awful lot of plane for many of the markets the 763 serves.

If the economics are such in that they would make more money from replacing the 763 with the 789 then they have the flexibility for more seats and reduction in the price of the tickets or make more money what ever allows them to make a profit.

Topic: RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms
Username: american 767
Posted 2013-01-15 17:31:48 and read 4493 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 31):
Active 762ER fleet now down to 11.

Yes, JFK-SFO now sees not more than 2 daily 762 flights, with the remaining 2 being 763s. It looks like SFO will stop seeing the 762 before LAX will. However, JFK-MIA will continue to see the 762 1x daily, from time to time...but not permanently.

Ben Soriano

Topic: RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms
Username: redrooster3
Posted 2013-01-23 13:36:50 and read 3861 times.

Today, AA was approved by a Judge to further finalized these aircraft options. This is a major step to AA finalizing their Boeings order. 100 737 MAX 8s, 20 787-8s, and 22(?) 787-9s. Article here. Further details to be reported later.

Topic: RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms
Username: BD338
Posted 2013-01-23 15:07:44 and read 3504 times.

Quoting redrooster3 (Reply 34):
Article here.

quality reporting....."..granted American Airlines’ motion to acquire a bunch of Airbus and Boeing airplanes in coming years"...the reporter went, ah its a lot but I can't be bothered to look up the total  

Still, AA is edging nearer to emerging from bankruptcy, can't be too much longer. I'm looking forward to an impressive fleet once they are all delivered.

Topic: RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms
Username: yyz717
Posted 2013-01-24 09:09:04 and read 2783 times.

Quoting american 767 (Reply 33):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 31):
Active 762ER fleet now down to 11.

Yes, JFK-SFO now sees not more than 2 daily 762 flights, with the remaining 2 being 763s. It looks like SFO will stop seeing the 762 before LAX will. However, JFK-MIA will continue to see the 762 1x daily, from time to time...but not permanently.

Another 762 was retired on Jan 17th. Now 10 active 762's.

Quoting redrooster3 (Reply 34):
Today, AA was approved by a Judge to further finalized these aircraft options. This is a major step to AA finalizing their Boeings order. 100 737 MAX 8s, 20 787-8s, and 22(?) 787-9s.

That's great news. Also good to see the 787 order split. I guess they either want less capacity or quicker deliveries.


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