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Topic: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: panamair
Posted 2013-01-24 05:58:35 and read 11648 times.

UAL reported a Q4 2012 net loss today of $190m excluding special charges; GAAP Net Loss of $620m including special charges...

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/united...full-fourth-quarter-123000541.html

Full year profit of $589m excluding specials, full year GAAP Net Loss of $720m including special charges.

Q4 2012:

Total revenues: $8.702 billion (down 2.5%)
Operating Loss: $465m ( -5.3% margin)
Operating Loss without specials: $26m ( -0.3% margin)
Net Loss: $620m ( -7.1% margin)
Net Loss excluding specials: $190m ( -2.2% margin)

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2013-01-24 06:01:52 and read 11644 times.

While it is probably to be expected as the merger integration continues, I would have thought that we would start to see more of the benefits of the merger already

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: SonomaFlyer
Posted 2013-01-24 06:39:33 and read 11396 times.

This is a continuation of the merger hangover. SuperStorm Sandy didn't help either. I think Jeff is running out of excuses for UA's under performance. They now have contracts in place with their work force which removes the last excuse he has to get the network optimized and performing in line with its competitors.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: MasseyBrown
Posted 2013-01-24 07:00:28 and read 11227 times.

What's so special about special items, when they recur quarter after quarter after quarter? Let's just call them "expenses", which is what they are. The concept of "operating profit" has become almost meaningless when it is so regularly dwarfed by the size of the specials.

(Pardon the accounting rant. IMO, the current treatment of special items and intangibles serves only to obscure the real financial condition of companies.)

That said, wasn't the retro pay to the pilots the real cause of the operating loss?

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: United1
Posted 2013-01-24 07:05:35 and read 11192 times.

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 3):
What's so special about special items, when they recur quarter after quarter after quarter? Let's just call them "expenses", which is what they are

Taking a look at the financials the special charges at least are virtually all merger and one time labor related charges. That's why they are considered special. There are a couple small charges related to the annual adjustments that UA makes to the value of slots/landing rights that it holds and a small gain due to the sale of some parked aircraft.

$175 million for severance packages (FAs and Mechanics)
$475 million related to the Pilots contract
$357 million are PBGC charges
$400 million (approximate) Includes compensation costs related to systems integration and training, costs to repaint aircraft and other branding activities, costs to write-off or accelerate depreciation on systems and facilities that are no longer used or planned to be used for significantly shorter periods, relocation costs for employees and severance primarily associated with administrative headcount reductions.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: Flighty
Posted 2013-01-24 07:16:59 and read 11099 times.

UA has had its time to work this. 2013 it better start performing a lot like Delta. 2014, either they do or it is a strategy and leadership problem.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: United1
Posted 2013-01-24 07:17:53 and read 11095 times.

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 3):
That said, wasn't the retro pay to the pilots the real cause of the operating loss?

No...that is not counted in the operating loss. Sandy reduced fourth-quarter revenue by approximately $140 million and profit by approximately $85 million. The rest of the loss for the fourth quarter is simply due to UAs typical business cycle...UA generally looses money the 4th and 1st quarters of most years and makes it up the 2nd and 3rd quarters.

Q1 revenue 8.6B cost 8.9B
Q2 revenue 9.9B cost 9.3B
Q3 revenue 9.9B cost 9.7B
Q4 revenue 8.7B cost 9.2B

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: MasseyBrown
Posted 2013-01-24 07:31:33 and read 10979 times.

Quoting United1 (Reply 4):
Taking a look at the financials the special charges at least are virtually all merger and one time labor related charges.

Ok, I'll listen to the webcast before complaining more. Merger-related charges used to be estimated and expensed or reserved for at the time of the merger. These days the charges are strung out over years often serving to mask what could more fairly be called management miscalculations or outright mistakes. (Not accusing UA in particular, everybody's guilty.)

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: IAHFLYR
Posted 2013-01-24 07:47:33 and read 10858 times.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 2):
I think Jeff is running out of excuses for UA's under performance.



I'd like to agree with you however; with the B788 issues he has an entirely new suitcase from which to select more lame reasons for his and his management selections poor showing.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 5):
UA has had its time to work this. 2013 it better start performing a lot like Delta. 2014, either they do or it is a strategy and leadership problem.



IMHO, it is pretty obvious that is already the case and has been since day 1.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: jayunited
Posted 2013-01-24 08:33:52 and read 10558 times.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 5):
UA has had its time to work this. 2013 it better start performing a lot like Delta. 2014, either they do or it is a strategy and leadership problem.

Why the comparison Delta's merger legally closed in 2008 United's merger legally closed OCt 1, 2012. So it is to be elected that Delta would perform better than United in 2012. But in 2010 Delta was still recording merger related cost.

I'll admit United made mistakes in 2012 the most notable was the PSS cutover and all the changes to MileagePlus that cost the company money. Then there were the 3 or 4 computer crashed during the spring and summer months which cost UA money. The company has completed the repaint of the narrow body mainline fleet, and has installed lie flat seating on more than 35 wide body aircraft this year another merger related cost. Then you had them settle contracts with sCO and sUA flight attendants, sCO and sUA mechanics and all pilots. All these groups received a signing bonus totally more than $600 million dollars. Then lastly you had Super Storm Sandy which closed IAD and EWR for a day and CLE was closed for half a day do to extremely high winds. Having 3 of your domestic hubs closed cost a lot of money as well.

Now while United made mistakes last year which cost the company money last year was only the second year of the merger and although it might seem like we have been in this merger a bit longer because of all the mistakes made we haven't. So the merger related cost are justified and right in line with what Delta had to deal with in 2010 when they were 2 years into their merger.

If these merger problems and cost continue to exist in 2013 then I would agree with your statement but right now I don't. Delta is 4 years into their merger the are expected to be at the top of their game by people in the airline industry and by the folks on Wall Street, 2013 is when the expectations will change for United and I hope we measure up.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: panamair
Posted 2013-01-24 08:36:50 and read 10524 times.

Quoting United1 (Reply 6):
The rest of the loss for the fourth quarter is simply due to UAs typical business cycle...UA generally looses money the 4th and 1st quarters of most years and makes it up the 2nd and 3rd quarters

But that applies to most carriers in the world...but US and DL are able to be profitable in Q4, which is a traditionally weak quarter. The combined network of UA/CO should actually help the new UA weather seasonal swings better than before.....

Quoting jayunited (Reply 9):
United's merger legally closed OCt 1, 2012

The UA-CO merger closed Oct 1 2010.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: apodino
Posted 2013-01-24 08:39:46 and read 10495 times.

In another thread someone pointed out the profit margins of the Major's international routes, and UA has a very profitable international network according to that. The fact that they are still losing money tells me that something on the domestic front isn't right, and it may need to be addressed. I hope its not just a bunch of fluke things, but if they get domestic figured out, they will be great going forward.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: panamair
Posted 2013-01-24 08:50:10 and read 10395 times.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 9):
So the merger related cost are justified and right in line with what Delta had to deal with in 2010 when they were 2 years into their merger.

DL-NW officially closed end of October 2008, while UA-CO closed Oct 1 2010. So there's about a two year timing difference between the two. So if one were to compare the two, one should look at DL-NW's performance for the full year 2010 versus UA-CO's performance for full year 2012.

For 2010, DL-NW made a Net Profit of $1.4 billion excluding special items or a $593m GAAP Profit, though Delta's operational performance was not good in 2010
Now for 2012, UA-CO made a Net Profit of $589m excluding special items or a $720m GAAP Loss. Similarly, UA's operational performance was not good in 2012...

So if you compare these two, UA is still generating less than half the net profit excluding specials and merger-related charges than DL was at the same point in time after the merger closed....

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: tommy767
Posted 2013-01-24 09:12:01 and read 10257 times.

Quoting panamair (Reply 12):
So if you compare these two, UA is still generating less than half the net profit excluding specials and merger-related charges than DL was at the same point in time after the merger closed....

I think the reason for this is the hodgepodge of CO policies and systems being implemented into United -- computer glitches, elite upgrade issues, several hubs that notoriously delayed. If you go on flyertalk and read about some of the issues, UA basically lost a major government contract on the IAD-CDG route because of elites getting ticked off about upgrades and 757 diversions. When PRASM is down, that when you know it's all smoke and mirrors at UA.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: STT757
Posted 2013-01-24 09:15:26 and read 10229 times.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 13):
major government contract on the IAD-CDG route because of elites getting ticked off about upgrades

Government employees don't get upgrades.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: United1
Posted 2013-01-24 09:15:27 and read 10231 times.

Quoting panamair (Reply 12):
So if one were to compare the two, one should look at DL-NW's performance for the full year 2010 versus UA-CO's performance for full year 2012.

...apples to oranges though as the general economy in 2010 was not the same as 2012. It's impossible to compare financials that way.

Quoting apodino (Reply 11):
In another thread someone pointed out the profit margins of the Major's international routes, and UA has a very profitable international network according to that.

Keep in mind that the data posted in that thread is not necessarily consistent between airlines. UA may divide revenue between international and domestic flights very differently then AA or DL do. There isn't a standard metric that the airlines are required to use...

Quoting panamair (Reply 10):
But that applies to most carriers in the world...but US and DL are able to be profitable in Q4, which is a traditionally weak quarter.

Yes but they may back-load or front-load costs and revenue differently then UA does...just because accounting is standard doesn't mean that its all done the same way....they also didn't do the bulk of their integration costs in 2012.  

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: delta2ual
Posted 2013-01-24 09:23:44 and read 10158 times.

I really hope things turn around in 2013; I have many friends at Willis and just from talking to them, I get the feeling they are starting to get a little frustrated with Mr. Smisek.
I think once the full integration is complete, things can only go up; they truly have the best hubs in the industry, IMHO. When I was at DL (before I went to UA) I had hoped so bad that DL and UA would merge. That would have been a powerhouse (and I think CO/NW would have been a good fit too). Alas, things turned out differently.
One thing that airlines never run out of (all airlines, not just UA) is excuses: terrorism, SARS, hurricanes, earthquakes, volcanic ash, strikes/slowdowns, ATC, etc. etc. I know they can't control many of these things, but it just seems like it's always something.
Here's to a new year and better things for UAL!

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: tommy767
Posted 2013-01-24 09:26:10 and read 10122 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 14):
Government employees don't get upgrades.

I'm not sure about that.

Either way, because of CO policy, they lost the route to AF.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: United1
Posted 2013-01-24 09:32:04 and read 10090 times.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 17):
Either way, because of CO policy, they lost the route to AF.

...not possible. Foreign carries can't apply for US government traffic. Now its possible that in the latest round of bidding DL (via a code share with AF) got the contract for this route. Keep in mind that government contracts, while they can be lucrative, are usually viewed as filler traffic by the airlines. UA may have not even bid on that route this year....

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: IAHFLYR
Posted 2013-01-24 09:33:09 and read 10090 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 14):
Government employees don't get upgrades



It all depends on the flight time. IIRC, a flight 8 hours plus they used to get first class tickets, but regardless they certainly can use their own FF status/miles to get upgrades.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 17):
Either way, because of CO policy, they lost the route to AF



Here we go again! What policy would that be which created CO to lose the CDG route? AF had the IAH-CDG route for many years not just since UA quit flying it.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: tommy767
Posted 2013-01-24 09:35:53 and read 10069 times.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 19):
Here we go again! What policy would that be which created CO to lose the CDG route? AF had the IAH-CDG route for many years not just since UA quit flying it.


"Descend at Co-Pilots Discretion"

Oh gee I don't know -- the usual pissing off DC flyers by flying a 757 beyond it's intended distance and having diversions.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: United1
Posted 2013-01-24 09:40:17 and read 10019 times.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 20):
the usual pissing off DC flyers by flying a 757 beyond it's intended distance and having diversions.

...it's a 2 class 763 and has been for a while..looks to be the same equipment on the route for the summer as well. They did fly a 752 on the route for a while why they worked on the 2 class 763 conversion.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: FlyHossD
Posted 2013-01-24 09:43:19 and read 10000 times.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 20):
Oh gee I don't know -- the usual pissing off DC flyers by flying a 757 beyond it's intended distance and having diversions.

How many diversions since the route switched from sUA 763s to sCO 752s?

Granted, the 767-300 is a great airplane with better range, but why was the route switched? I seem to recall it was part of the cycle to move 763s around to other (read: more profitable) routes AND to refurbish the often ratty 763s. Isn't that project about done?

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: tommy767
Posted 2013-01-24 09:43:42 and read 9999 times.

Quoting United1 (Reply 21):

They switched it back from last winter (for obvious reasons.)

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2013-01-24 09:56:23 and read 9872 times.

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 16):
I have many friends at Willis and just from talking to them, I get the feeling they are starting to get a little frustrated with Mr. Smisek.

The few that I know there too also feel the same....

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: apodino
Posted 2013-01-24 10:14:55 and read 10105 times.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 24):
Quoting delta2ual (Reply 16):
I have many friends at Willis and just from talking to them, I get the feeling they are starting to get a little frustrated with Mr. Smisek.

The few that I know there too also feel the same....

The question is...how long before the shareholders feel the same?

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2013-01-24 10:20:52 and read 10244 times.

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 16):
I have many friends at Willis and just from talking to them, I get the feeling they are starting to get a little frustrated with Mr. Smisek.
Quoting yellowtail (Reply 24):
The few that I know there too also feel the same....

This morning announced a 6% management headcount reduction, which is about 700 heads per the earnings call if memory serves. There has been a voluntary program out there, but it appears that it has been ineffective and they're officially resorting to a "reduction in force". Pink slips due in February.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: COflyerBOS
Posted 2013-01-24 10:31:08 and read 10447 times.

Could job, Smisek.

Maybe UA should cut back IAH flying even more. That strategy seems to be working so well for you up in Chicago.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: tommy767
Posted 2013-01-24 10:36:38 and read 10364 times.

Quoting COflyerBOS (Reply 27):
Maybe UA should cut back IAH flying even more. That strategy seems to be working so well for you up in Chicago.

IAH travelers really don't have any right to complain. You guys are seeing many equipment upgrades as a result of the merger.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: IAHFLYR
Posted 2013-01-24 10:43:29 and read 10348 times.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 28):
IAH travelers really don't have any right to complain. You guys are seeing many equipment upgrades as a result of the merger.


Really, I certainly don't call an A319 an upgrade over a B738/9 with TV's, nor a B763 on the LHR route over a B772.

Quoting COflyerBOS (Reply 27):
Maybe UA should cut back IAH flying even more. That strategy seems to be working so well for you up in Chicago


It certainly does, wonder what cuts will be next in line as Flibs contiues to attempt to show the Mayor just how the big boys play!   

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: Flighty
Posted 2013-01-24 10:43:29 and read 10287 times.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 9):
If these merger problems and cost continue to exist in 2013 then I would agree with your statement but right now I don't. Delta is 4 years into their merger the are expected to be at the top of their game by people in the airline industry and by the folks on Wall Street, 2013 is when the expectations will change for United and I hope we measure up.

Sure. These comments regarding 2012 are understandable. But now it is 2013. Those days are over. United needs to be done merging now. It needs to run like a business now. Or, I am left to suspect that the business plan either wasn't there, or their structural costs are too high, -OR- there are problems in the fleet planning and market planning departments. Such as, retaining a ton of cash negative flying, due to some pride or brand equity mumbo jumbo. Executives who learned that stuff at Harvard have a terrible record in the airline business. But hey, glass half full. United should do great in 2013.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: tommy767
Posted 2013-01-24 10:52:01 and read 10248 times.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 29):
Really, I certainly don't call an A319 an upgrade over a B738/9 with TV's, nor a B763 on the LHR route over a B772.

The 319s have comfortable seats that won't make you go running to a chiropractor after deplaning from a 738 or 739.

And yes, the 319s have video (Free video, unlike the 737s.)

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: IAHFLYR
Posted 2013-01-24 11:06:12 and read 10132 times.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 31):
The 319s have comfortable seats that won't make you go running to a chiropractor after deplaning from a 738 or 739.

And yes, the 319s have video


I've never had to see a chiropractor after numerous flights on the Boeing jets, but I will agree the buses have nice seats. The video system is at best sad as are most that come out of the overhead bins and the selection of movies/shows is not much better. Simply not an upgrade in equipment to me.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 30):
Executives who learned that stuff at Harvard have a terrible record in the airline business.


Another good reason for someone to move along and go back being a lawyer or anything not related to the airline industry.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: FlyHossD
Posted 2013-01-24 11:12:17 and read 10045 times.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 23):
They switched it back from last winter (for obvious reasons.)

So how many diversions were there (when the sCO 752 was on the IAD-CDG route)? I'd genuinely like to know.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 13):
If you go on flyertalk and read about some of the issues, UA basically lost a major government contract on the IAD-CDG route because of elites getting ticked off about upgrades and 757 diversions.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: tpaewr
Posted 2013-01-24 11:13:07 and read 10065 times.

DL also has a much more labor flex being almost totally non-union. Other than pilots new contract everything at "United" is still very much two airlines sUA and sCO. It makes everything vastly more complex and cost more.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: IAHFLYR
Posted 2013-01-24 11:17:23 and read 10014 times.

Quoting tpaewr (Reply 34):
Other than pilots new contract everything at "United" is still very much two airlines sUA and sCO



IIRC the seniority list for the pilots is supposed to be merged in the May/June time which should help. Last I heard I believe the pilots had completed five out of the six ops training items, but I could be wrong.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: United1
Posted 2013-01-24 11:17:52 and read 10028 times.

Quoting tpaewr (Reply 34):
Other than pilots new contract everything at "United" is still very much two airlines sUA and sCO. It makes everything vastly more complex and cost more.

...there are some hints of forward movement in that area. They may have something to announce this quarter regarding a couple of the unions.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2013-01-24 11:18:38 and read 10000 times.

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 33):
So how many diversions were there (when the sCO 752 was on the IAD-CDG route)? I'd genuinely like to know.

Not knowing all the reasons, could include mechanicals etc, but 31 westbound diversions, and 1 eastbound diversion.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: strfyr51
Posted 2013-01-24 11:19:46 and read 10062 times.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 24):

I work at Willis and the frustration isn't about Smisek. It's the fact that we've been moving so damned slow with the integration and Nobody on the CAL side seems to know where we're going or how we're going to get there. Since they seem to be running the show then they should have some idea WHEN the Maintenance information system will be working and WHEN we'll get on the Ball getting us all on it. they've been programming since 2011 and we could have been on a brand NEW system by now..

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: coairman
Posted 2013-01-24 11:40:46 and read 9895 times.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 31):

I agree. The CO 737's have had uncomfortable seats for years. Poor back and seat cushion support. The airbus aircraft have much more comfortable seats and wider aisles and overall more roomier than the CO 737's. The satellite TV on the 737's doesn't mean much if your seat is uncomfortable.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: tommy767
Posted 2013-01-24 11:45:09 and read 9896 times.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 32):
The video system is at best sad as are most that come out of the overhead bins and the selection of movies/shows is not much better. Simply not an upgrade in equipment to me.

I think of all the other US carriers: AA, DL, and US. DL has many aircraft that only have wi fi, AA only has aircraft that are overhead IFE ready, and US has, well, nothing.

So despite the 320s having overhead LCDs, that's pretty much in line with the competition. The DTV system, as said costs a lot for most trips (not worth it) and the coverage area is weak.

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 33):
So how many diversions were there (when the sCO 752 was on the IAD-CDG route)? I'd genuinely like to know.

Last year it was ridiculous on the IAD routes: AMS and CDG would divert multiple times per week. But as said, this year has been better since the 763 was brought back to both routes.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 38):
and Nobody on the CAL side seems to know where we're going or how we're going to get there.

Seems to be much of the problem at UA these days -- lack of vision. Although both the sUA and sCO MX departments seem to be doing an excellent job of keeping a/c up to speed.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: CALTECH
Posted 2013-01-24 12:06:43 and read 9743 times.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 2):
They now have contracts in place with their work force which removes the last excuse he has to get the network optimized and performing in line with its competitors.

Not with TechOps. We are still pretty much 2 distinct seperate groups. We don't even have uniforms yet, though they have been ordered and are on the way. In MCO, we just moved all the flights to the 40s gates from the 30s. Not enough gates over there. Terminal MX is still over at the 30s gates. There's a lot to do yet.

Quoting United1 (Reply 6):
UA generally looses money the 4th and 1st quarters of most years and makes it up the 2nd and 3rd quarters.

Let's see how 4th quarter results are when the merger is really complete.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 8):
IMHO, it is pretty obvious that is already the case and has been since day 1.

Would say that not until 2014 at the earliest. We'll get there. Frustrating for us too, some things can not get done and put away until the workgroups are one. Taking a lot of time, but that's how some mergers are. Waiting to amend contracts has been a big deal.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 9):
Why the comparison Delta's merger legally closed in 2008,.....in 2010 Delta was still recording merger related cost.
Quoting delta2ual (Reply 16):
Here's to a new year and better things for UAL!

There should be a contract up for vote by Jun 2013 for the TechOps Division. Things are slowly coming together.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 19):
Here we go again! What policy would that be which created CO to lose the CDG route? AF had the IAH-CDG route for many years not just since UA quit flying it.

I never knew Continental's policy was to piss off people. Though we won numerous awards and accolades for being a great airline. Always wondered why my significant other's clients always demanded flying on Continental to go overseas, if we were so bad as some would have everyone believe.

Quoting United1 (Reply 21):
...it's a 2 class 763 and has been for a while..looks to be the same equipment on the route for the summer as well.

Good rebuttal.

Quoting tpaewr (Reply 34):
DL also has a much more labor flex being almost totally non-union. Other than pilots new contract everything at "United" is still very much two airlines sUA and sCO. It makes everything vastly more complex and cost more.

We are still 2 seperate entities in TechOps, and the pilots are too. The pilots will go through their integration now. Just because a contract is signed doesn't mean everything is integrated immediately, this will take more time.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 35):
IIRC the seniority list for the pilots is supposed to be merged in the May/June time which should help. Last I heard I believe the pilots had completed five out of the six ops training items, but I could be wrong.

Until everyone settles down, it may go beyond May/June.

Quoting United1 (Reply 36):
...there are some hints of forward movement in that area. They may have something to announce this quarter regarding a couple of the unions.

A TechOps contract is hoped to be settled on in March, with a vote for May/June timeframe. After that, the two different TechOps computer systems are to be merged finally. They are and have been working on this computer integration, supposedly keeping the best of each one. Wouldn't touch that, best left to the IT staff.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 38):
I work at Willis and the frustration isn't about Smisek. It's the fact that we've been moving so damned slow with the integration and Nobody on the CAL side seems to know where we're going or how we're going to get there. Since they seem to be running the show then they should have some idea WHEN the Maintenance information system will be working and WHEN we'll get on the Ball getting us all on it. they've been programming since 2011 and we could have been on a brand NEW system by now..

Why buy a new system with it's costs and need for training all TechOps employees, when you have two good systems already ? Like they say, they are trying to keep the best of Sceptre and Unimatic. Heard it will be based on Sceptre. Annoying having to look things up in two different systems. Can not wait till it's done.

We'll get there. How much longer is the question. We haven't even agreed on seniority integration yet in TechOps, lots of back and forth, though there are ideas out there, and lately, a peek at what will be. We'll get there. We are slowly becoming United.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: aaexecplat
Posted 2013-01-24 12:07:32 and read 9733 times.

The reason the results are poor and the reason for industry lagging PRASM growth is that UA has just lost too many elites since the MileagePlus program changes for 2012 were announced. Every elite level took it in the shorts. 1ks and GS took it in the shorts the least, but even they experienced a degradation of upgrade rates and of course the operational issues UA has had. For Plats Golds, and Silvers, the devaluations have been far worse with RDM bonuses being slashed, upgrade rates dropping in many cases, and operational failures along the way.

If UA wanted to grow PRASM fast right now, it's not difficult. Reinstate the UA MP program pre-merger, foster a culture of customer service excellence, provide agents a system that allows them to take care of the customer and do a 1k match for all AA EXP and DL DMs. You'd be shocked how much UA could grow PRASM in no time flat.

The fundamental issue is that CO management has created a culture where corporate efficiency trumps the customer experience. If you've recently checked in for a complicated intl itinerary with UA, you'll understand what I just said...UA has the worst check-in process of any airline I know for intl travel. Don't believe me? Give it a try and see for yourself.

The only way I would go back to being Plat or 1k on UA would be if I had a reasonable expectation of being taken care of when I need assistance and if the MP program came back to provide the benefits they used to not all that long ago.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: tommy767
Posted 2013-01-24 12:17:42 and read 9612 times.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 41):
I never knew Continental's policy was to piss off people. Though we won numerous awards and accolades for being a great airline. Always wondered why my significant other's clients always demanded flying on Continental to go overseas, if we were so bad as some would have everyone believe.

So many awards, so many accolades, yet they don't exist anymore and the one person who's job is to sustain profitability at United and cannot is from Continental.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: aaexecplat
Posted 2013-01-24 12:35:58 and read 9425 times.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 41):
I never knew Continental's policy was to piss off people. Though we won numerous awards and accolades for being a great airline. Always wondered why my significant other's clients always demanded flying on Continental to go overseas, if we were so bad as some would have everyone believe.

CO was once great. I was a Plat on CO starting under Gordo. And continued to be a Plat under Larry and then Jeff and now Plat on UA. The reality is that the slide of CO started under Larry (some would say late in Gordo's tenure). By the time Jeff came to run CO, the company was in full decline mode. Upgrade rates were plummeting, amenities slashed everywhere, service become ultra poor. And through it all, that CO sense of "rahrah we're the best" kept employees thinking they were the best in the business when they clearly no longer were. We frequent flyers saw it. I bailed CO as my primary carrier in 2009 because it had become unbearable. You'd do yourself a favor and really look at the trajectory CO had taken over the years, especially since Gordo left.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 43):
So many awards, so many accolades, yet they don't exist anymore and the one person who's job is to sustain profitability at United and cannot is from Continental.

Exactly. What's done is done and now is now. The reality is that UA dosn't stack up well among the most important segment of their customers...the 20% who produce 80% of the revenue (not actual numbers...). That's what's missing. And the sooner UA comes to terms with this, the sooner it can rise from its proverbial ashes.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: CODC10
Posted 2013-01-24 12:44:18 and read 9276 times.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 43):
So many awards, so many accolades, yet they don't exist anymore

This is one of your favorite retorts but it's flat-out wrong.

Continental Airlines, Inc. still exists as a separate legal entity, a subsidiary of United Continental Holdings, Inc. The new company (United Airlines, Inc.) will come after the legal merger of the subsidiaries some time in April. The 'legal merger' which you misconstrue as the time Continental Airlines, Inc. ceased to exist, was simply the merger of both subsidiaries under the United Continental Holdings company. They still are not one company, just the same parent.

Of course, this does not matter at all from an operational standpoint, but legally, this is how it is.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: tommy767
Posted 2013-01-24 12:47:02 and read 9238 times.

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 44):
You'd do yourself a favor and really look at the trajectory CO had taken over the years, especially since Gordo left.

I have heard on this forum that although Gordo "retired" he was indeed forced out back in 2004-2005. Larry and Jeff are two different people but are from the same mold. They just cannot compare to Gordon because neither did anything revolutionary for the company during their tenures (Jeff did merge with United, but that was handed to him on a silver platter.) The people who say that the Continental under Larry was much better than Jeff are clearly mistaken. The cuts were occurring under Larry (as you said) but they had a PR campaign to cover it up, and since their main hubs were fortresses, HQ didn't have to listen if they didn't want to (and for the most part, they didn't.)

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 44):
Exactly. What's done is done and now is now. The reality is that UA dosn't stack up well among the most important segment of their customers...the 20% who produce 80% of the revenue (not actual numbers...). That's what's missing. And the sooner UA comes to terms with this, the sooner it can rise from its proverbial ashes.

Gotta get the PRASM back up at the new UA if they want to compete with DL. Even AA and US have seen their PRASM go up compared to UA's declining one.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: IAHFLYR
Posted 2013-01-24 13:06:33 and read 8987 times.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 41):
I never knew Continental's policy was to piss off people. Though we won numerous awards and accolades for being a great airline. Always wondered why my significant other's clients always demanded flying on Continental to go overseas, if we were so bad as some would have everyone believe.


I didn't know it was either until someone posted it, sure seemed strange to me since CO was all I flew from 1986 till the merger and can't remember getting pissed at all. Oh well.

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 42):
If you've recently checked in for a complicated intl itinerary with UA, you'll understand what I just said...UA has the worst check-in process of any airline I know for intl travel. Don't believe me? Give it a try and see for yourself


I've had two such itineraries within the last six months and have found no issues getting checked in or getting changed to a different connecting flight on another Star Alliance partner due to a late arriving flight which delayed our flight. Other than the delays we all know about and all suffer through I can't agree with you.

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 42):
The only way I would go back to being Plat or 1k on UA would be if I had a reasonable expectation of being taken care of when I need assistance


I've been taken care of when it was needed and not had any issues, knock on wood!

I have noticed some changes in the last couple of months for the good, baby steps but still steps forward. Hopefully the trend will continue and profits will rise as will the entire experience on UA. Another year like last will certainly not sit will with investors or customers.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: United1
Posted 2013-01-24 13:10:29 and read 8959 times.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 47):
Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 42):
If you've recently checked in for a complicated intl itinerary with UA, you'll understand what I just said...UA has the worst check-in process of any airline I know for intl travel. Don't believe me? Give it a try and see for yourself


I've had two such itineraries within the last six months and have found no issues getting checked in or getting changed to a different connecting flight on another Star Alliance partner due to a late arriving flight which delayed our flight.

...indeed...check in on UA is very easy. On my phone, on the web or at the airport...and the automatic check in for the return flight is a nice feature.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: IAHFLYR
Posted 2013-01-24 13:20:31 and read 8839 times.

Quoting United1 (Reply 48):
the automatic check in for the return flight is a nice feature.



Spot on Marine!! Even I the Army guy can't foul that up!  

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: EaglePower83
Posted 2013-01-24 13:20:37 and read 8834 times.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 41):
Heard it will be based on Sceptre.

Of course it will be.
Since everything PMUA has been jettisoned anyway, since it was deemed inferior by the new CO regime.
UA had a rough reputation, but by the time 2008 turned the corner, they were running a smooth operation that [most] people enjoyed flying.
I was a hardcore UA supporter and customer, and wanted the merger to work very much. But when EVERY flight in 2012 was either late, MX or my reservations were flubbed......I couldn't take it anymore.
Enough is enough, especially when all my flights are out of my pocket.
Simply said, they've lost their dependability.

How am I supposed to appologize for UA when all my new AA flights since Aug-12 have been completely drama free?

I wish UA luck, being Sweet Home Chicago's resident airline, but there needs to be a mea culpa or regime change over there at Le Shipe Rudderless.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: aaexecplat
Posted 2013-01-24 13:27:36 and read 8761 times.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 47):
I've had two such itineraries within the last six months and have found no issues getting checked in or getting changed to a different connecting flight on another Star Alliance partner due to a late arriving flight which delayed our flight. Other than the delays we all know about and all suffer through I can't agree with you.
Quoting United1 (Reply 48):
...indeed...check in on UA is very easy. On my phone, on the web or at the airport...and the automatic check in for the return flight is a nice feature.

So let me get this straight...you were not forced to check yourself and three other folks on the same PNR in on the kiosk? And when you did all the work (swiping passports, editing manually the names the kiosk didn't read etc) the machine didn't ask for an agent to authorize the continuation of the process (thereby pausing siad process for several minutes)? And you didn't have a problem with adding items like child car seats and baby cribs (because there's no spot to specifically add those) which then had to be added manually by the agent that was completely overtasked?

I had nothing but problems and it took 45 minutes to compete the process largely because there was only ONE employee who had to help everyone from elites to kettle get their bags tagged etc?

Name one major international airline (in Star Alliance no less) that makes you do all that work, forces you to use a kiosk and has only one employee manning an entire counter. I know TG and LH had no problem checking us in in the Star Alliance Gold lanes in FRA, BKK and HKT and the process took no more than 5 minutes each time...

You can keep making excuses and stay in denial about just how bad the check-in experience is, or you can come to terms with the reality that many fliers experience every day and have Smisek and co put together a competitive customer service experience.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2013-01-24 13:30:50 and read 8599 times.

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 51):

So let me get this straight...

Where the heck were you?

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: IAHFLYR
Posted 2013-01-24 13:44:53 and read 8475 times.

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 51):
So let me get this straight...you were not forced to check yourself and three other folks on the same PNR in on the kiosk? And when you did all the work (swiping passports, editing manually the names the kiosk didn't read etc) the machine didn't ask for an agent to authorize the continuation of the process (thereby pausing siad process for several minutes)? And you didn't have a problem with adding items like child car seats and baby cribs (because there's no spot to specifically add those) which then had to be added manually by the agent that was completely overtasked?


After swiping my passport and that of my wife the agent verified everything and poof off we went. Last week in fact my son and I were taking an over sized box with said baby stroller and another large box with a baby crib to Bolivia. Passports swiped and agent verified, I was done but he has his over sized box which was greeted with a smile by the agent who proceeded to work on his baggage issue. The agent even attempted to save him the extra $200 for the over sized article by opening the box to see if he could put the stroller into a large plastic bag and check rather than charge him that fee. After that was failure looking for a place to happen due to the number of parts in the box the agent helped put it all back in the box and taped it all up, the entire time being very very friendly and helpful.

I'm not making excuses nor in denial, but if that is what you wish to call it then so be it. I am not a huge fan of this merger and certainly not of Slimezek, Flibs or any of his other nicknames, I have had plenty of opportunities where things could have been as you refer over the last two years of flying this new UA, but it has not happened. I am only addressing issues that I have been part of and am sharing the experiences.. Not sure why I have not had some of the same issues as we all read about, but I am glad I haven't.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: United1
Posted 2013-01-24 13:55:31 and read 8340 times.

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 51):
.

...where were you at? And no once forces you use a kiosk...you can wait for the agent (s). I would guess that my experience in SFO/EWR/JFK is very different then trying to check in at GRB or ALB but I have never seen one agent at any UA station working an entire counter. As for putting together a competitive check in experience...I think they have one...I have never had the same issue you had at any of the airports that I happened to fly out of last year (~25.)

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: aaexecplat
Posted 2013-01-24 14:04:35 and read 8286 times.

Quoting United1 (Reply 54):
...where were you at? And no once forces you use a kiosk...you can wait for the agent (s). I would guess that my experience in SFO/EWR/JFK is very different then trying to check in at GRB or ALB but I have never seen one agent at any UA station working an entire counter. As for putting together a competitive check in experience...I think they have one...I have never had the same issue you had at any of the airports that I happened to fly out of last year (~25.)

This was my second UA itinerary internationally. Both originated in AUS. Same exact issue both times. I was forced to use the kiosk (no agents at the counter who are dedicated to checking folks in) and in one case, my request to have us checked in was denied and I was referred to the kiosk (that was an even bigger problem). Both times, only one agent helping customers (by swiping his badge etc). Remaining handful of agents were printing baggage tags and putting bags on conveyor.

Maybe AUS is the problem, not UA per se, but how can UA allow such a process to happen in a major city like AUS?

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: slider
Posted 2013-01-24 14:08:06 and read 8252 times.

Quoting EaglePower83 (Reply 50):
Since everything PMUA has been jettisoned anyway, since it was deemed inferior by the new CO regime.

Unimatic stinks.

The load planning program is sub UA too I believe, as are many of the NOC functions.

The accounts payable system is also UA and blows completely--far too complicated from what I hear and needlessly so (as is much of old UA way of doing things).

In terms of systems choices and programs and whatnot, there are few beefs from a truly objective standpoint, but the integration is slow, difficult and that's life. But some of the choices are just puzzling and hard to comprehend.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: FlyHossD
Posted 2013-01-24 14:24:30 and read 8129 times.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 35):
IIRC the seniority list for the pilots is supposed to be merged in the May/June time which should help. Last I heard I believe the pilots had completed five out of the six ops training items, but I could be wrong.

I just saw an email from one of SUA's Merger Committee members; August at the earliest according to him. I'd estimate even later.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 38):
I work at Willis and the frustration isn't about Smisek. It's the fact that we've been moving so damned slow with the integration and Nobody on the CAL side seems to know where we're going or how we're going to get there. Since they seem to be running the show then they should have some idea WHEN the Maintenance information system will be working and WHEN we'll get on the Ball getting us all on it. they've been programming since 2011 and we could have been on a brand NEW system by now..

And I hear plenty from sCO folks who bemoan the heavy bureaucratic way of sUA... The two cultures were very different, but this was completely ignored by those "sponsoring" the merger, IMHO. The merger has seen several examples of failure of leadership.

Quoting coairman (Reply 39):
I agree. The CO 737's have had uncomfortable seats for years. Poor back and seat cushion support. The airbus aircraft have much more comfortable seats and wider aisles and overall more roomier than the CO 737's. The satellite TV on the 737's doesn't mean much if your seat is uncomfortable.


I've done a bit of traveling lately and the seats on the sUA planes are indeed better. What I'd like to see is power outlets like many of the sCO planes.
Quoting coairman (Reply 39):

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 40):
Seems to be much of the problem at UA these days -- lack of vision. Although both the sUA and sCO MX departments seem to be doing an excellent job of keeping a/c up to speed.

Why expect vision from bean counters and an attorney? IMO, sCO started downhill with Kellner's "management by spreadsheet" approach. And since then, Smisek has only stepped on the gas pedal.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 43):
So many awards, so many accolades, yet they don't exist anymore and the one person who's job is to sustain profitability at United and cannot is from Continental.

A source of embarrassment to many sCO folks. Even before taking the CEO reins, Smisek was becoming known as FLIBS - Frank Lorenzo In a Better Suit.

How much longer will the Board and Wall Street tolerate their "chosen one?"

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 44):
You'd do yourself a favor and really look at the trajectory CO had taken over the years, especially since Gordo left.


Agreed.

[Edited 2013-01-24 14:26:35]

[Edited 2013-01-24 14:28:39]

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: DualQual
Posted 2013-01-24 14:25:10 and read 8072 times.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 35):

IIRC the seniority list for the pilots is supposed to be merged in the May/June time which should help. Last I heard I believe the pilots had completed five out of the six ops training items, but I could be wrong.

The timeframe is more like end of August for an arbitrated list. Short of both sides negotiating a list (doubtful) the case will go to the arbitrators in June/July.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: COSPN
Posted 2013-01-24 15:19:24 and read 7636 times.

Ramp and Pax service still waiting for a contact..Rampers put on the street (furloughed) at one sub s/Airmike when they are hiring 'off the street' at the other sub s/UA HNL s/UA rampers working flights while Hundreds of thousands paid to a vendor to work the BTW s/CO flights..

It just seems to be taking forever to get s/CO and s/UA "flying together"

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-01-24 15:40:24 and read 7460 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 14):
Government employees don't get upgrades.

Uh? When I worked for a US governmental agency I was regularly upgraded... because I was 1K. The negotiated government rate was considered equivalent to full Y, so it was automatically E+, and easily upgradable.

Quoting United1 (Reply 18):
...not possible. Foreign carries can't apply for US government traffic.

Fly American Act.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 19):
It all depends on the flight time. IIRC, a flight 8 hours plus they used to get first class tickets, but regardless they certainly can use their own FF status/miles to get upgrades.

Yes to the last part (using one's status or miles), no to the first part: always coach (at least for me).

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 55):
Maybe AUS is the problem, not UA per se

Last month I had the same issue at IAH: was forced to use the kiosk, had to wait for an agent to check the passport, etc. I was not impressed.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: IAHFLYR
Posted 2013-01-24 16:06:31 and read 7243 times.

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 57):
I just saw an email from one of SUA's Merger Committee members; August at the earliest according to him. I'd estimate even later.



Thanks for the update. I had not talked to any of my pilots friends in about a week, last they told me May/June so I'm sure they are over joyed with this new time line. Isn't there a lump sum to be had when the two groups are merged or did I dream that?  

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: FlyHossD
Posted 2013-01-24 16:24:16 and read 7077 times.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 61):
Thanks for the update. I had not talked to any of my pilots friends in about a week, last they told me May/June so I'm sure they are over joyed with this new time line. Isn't there a lump sum to be had when the two groups are merged or did I dream that?

Yes, as I recall, the remainder of the lump sum doesn't come until the seniority list is integrated.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: United1
Posted 2013-01-24 16:27:33 and read 7090 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 60):
Quoting United1 (Reply 18):
...not possible. Foreign carries can't apply for US government traffic.

Fly American Act.

...yup. I just looked up the route DL got the contract for that particular route this year. Its a code share with AF which is allowed under Fly America Act. As an interesting side note....ATL-Paris went to AA this year.... 
Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 55):
Maybe AUS is the problem, not UA per se, but how can UA allow such a process to happen in a major city like AUS?

Don't know about AUS (ive never been there) but you do have to have your have your ID checked by an agent in order to check bags...I have not had the same issue that you had but I generally fly out of larger cities and can use the premier check in desks.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-24 16:34:49 and read 6987 times.

I think 2013 will be a good year for United. They should start to really improve. Or Else.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2013-01-24 17:50:53 and read 6481 times.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 29):
It certainly does, wonder what cuts will be next in line as Flibs contiues to attempt to show the Mayor just how the big boys play!   

And ever time they ignore IAH a little another carrier moves in there.....NK, TK, etc etc....

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: jayunited
Posted 2013-01-24 17:54:39 and read 6503 times.

Two years into the merger United's problems were completely different than Delta's were, and although we recorded a lost in 2012 I think Wall Street expected this. If you look at 2011 United made a profit on the whole year but what did UA really do that was merger related? The biggest thing UA tackled in 2011 was obtaining our SOC, repainting all of United's battle ship grey planes and removing Continental's name from the side of all aircraft. In 2012 United took on some very big challenges starting with the PSS cut over, Mileage Plus and OnePass combination, then sUA still had about 150 narrow body aircraft that needed to be repainted from sUA blue to sCO white. They completely gutted all 14 sUA domestic 767 and refitted them with lie flat seating in businessfirst, new seating in coach and AVOD throughout the entire plane. United refreshed 12 of sCO 767-400 with lie flat seating as well. At least 14 of sUA international 777 were gutted as well completely refitted with lie flat seats in first and business new seats in economy and AVOD was installed in these planes as well. More than 250 sCO aircraft were retrofitted with economy plus seating. The you had the company settle contracts with flight attendants, mechanics, and pilots which included pay raises along with signing bonuses totalling more than $600 million dollars along with many other merger related cost. All of these expenses were necessary and took away from UA's bottom line.

Then comes all the mistakes that the company made which cost UA a LOT of money starting with the PSS, multiple computer crashes, on-time performance over the spring and summer that was just horrendous, having to many planes out of service for repainting and retrofitting which forced UA to cancel more flights over the spring and summer than any other U.S. airlines except AA. All of these mistakes and more also hit UA's bottom line.

I said all of that to say that in 2010 when Delta was two years into their merger they were not installing lie flat seating on their planes. In fact Delta's first airplane a 777 with true lie flat seating did role out the hangar till the end of January 2011. Then Delta and Northwest PSS systems had a lot of things in common so their cut over went much smoother. United's PSS system had nothing in common with Continental. Delta's workforce is mostly non-union except for their pilots and although their payroll did increase do to some pay raises I don't recall Delta paying anything close to $600 million dollars in signing bonuses to their employees and United employees are worth every Penny of that $600 million if not more for all the sacrifices that sUA and sCO employees have made over the years.

And finally there was Super Storm Sandy the company just released today the final cost of Sandy which effected 3 of our hubs and it cost UA $140 million dollars. While UA made some very big mistakes in 2012 Wall Street doesn't see to be to upset or concerned because UA's stock price moved higher despite us recording a huge loss and all employees will be receiving their share of $119 million dollars on Febuary 14, 2013. It just a small way the company is saying thank you to its employees for the work we did in 2012.

With most of the merger related cost behind us I think 2013 will be better for United and if it isn't then I think the Board of Directors and Wall Street will be demanding Jeff's head on a plate because United truely will not have any excuses.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: United1
Posted 2013-01-24 18:01:21 and read 6420 times.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 66):
.

Excellent post....you hit the nail on the head.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: Bruce
Posted 2013-01-24 18:12:51 and read 6310 times.

Another thing United did last year was terminate service contracts for ground handling Express flights at numerous airports with long time seasoned employees in favor of other cheaper ($8 hour) ground handlers like DGS. They put out RFPs and the cheapest one got the work. That was supposed to save UA lots of $$$.

Bruce

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: sshank
Posted 2013-01-24 18:33:41 and read 6165 times.

Quoting United1 (Reply 54):
...where were you at? And no once forces you use a kiosk...you can wait for the agent (s). I would guess that my experience in SFO/EWR/JFK is very different then trying to check in at GRB or ALB but I have never seen one agent at any UA station working an entire counter. As for putting together a competitive check in experience...I think they have one...I have never had the same issue you had at any of the airports that I happened to fly out of last year (~25.)
Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 55):
Quoting United1 (Reply 54):
...where were you at? And no once forces you use a kiosk...you can wait for the agent (s). I would guess that my experience in SFO/EWR/JFK is very different then trying to check in at GRB or ALB but I have never seen one agent at any UA station working an entire counter. As for putting together a competitive check in experience...I think they have one...I have never had the same issue you had at any of the airports that I happened to fly out of last year (~25.)

This was my second UA itinerary internationally. Both originated in AUS. Same exact issue both times. I was forced to use the kiosk (no agents at the counter who are dedicated to checking folks in) and in one case, my request to have us checked in was denied and I was referred to the kiosk (that was an even bigger problem). Both times, only one agent helping customers (by swiping his badge etc). Remaining handful of agents were printing baggage tags and putting bags on conveyor.

Maybe AUS is the problem, not UA per se, but how can UA allow such a process to happen in a major city like AUS?

I am with you on this - its not just AUS. The EWR check in experience even when checking in for long haul flight in the BusinessFirst cabin is an absolute disgrace and has to be the worst in the industry. You go to the mid level BF check in with about half a dozen kiosks and a couple of agents running up and down checking documentation and printing baggage tags while passengers look around with frustration and disbelief.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: FlyHossD
Posted 2013-01-24 19:50:25 and read 5711 times.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 66):
on-time performance over the spring and summer that was just horrendous

First, that was a nice summary. Thank you.

Some of the stories I've heard about last summer's operation might bear repeating again somewhere, but it seemed to me that the key was complete failure by senior leadership to do many of the most basic things in operating any airline, large or small (like failing to move aircraft parts to match the aircraft operations). Managing a spreadsheet is not the same as leading an airline.

I was surprised by UAL's stock performance today.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: tommy767
Posted 2013-01-24 20:04:45 and read 5607 times.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 66):
In fact Delta's first airplane a 777 with true lie flat seating did role out the hangar till the end of January 2011.

DL got lie flat seats on their 777s starting in 2008.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: CALTECH
Posted 2013-01-24 20:21:00 and read 5536 times.

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 42):
The reason the results are poor and the reason for industry lagging PRASM growth is that UA has just lost too many elites since the MileagePlus program changes for 2012 were announced.

The numbers do not seem to support your post.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...uarter-2012-results-188186741.html

•UAL full-year 2012 consolidated passenger revenue increased 0.2 percent year-over-year. Consolidated passenger revenue per available seat mile (PRASM) increased 1.7 percent in 2012 compared to 2011.
•Superstorm Sandy reduced fourth-quarter revenue by approximately $140 million and profit by approximately $85 million.
•Full-year 2012 consolidated unit costs (CASM), holding fuel rate and profit sharing constant and excluding special charges and third-party business expense, increased 2.5 percent year-over-year on a consolidated capacity reduction of 1.5 percent. Full-year 2012 consolidated CASM increased 6.7 percent year-over-year.
•UAL ended 2012 with $7.0 billion in unrestricted liquidity.
•Co-workers earned $119 million in profit sharing for full-year 2012, which will be distributed on Feb. 14, 2013.

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 42):
The fundamental issue is that CO management has created a culture where corporate efficiency trumps the customer experience. If you've recently checked in for a complicated intl itinerary with UA, you'll understand what I just said...UA has the worst check-in process of any airline I know for intl travel. Don't believe me? Give it a try and see for yourself.

Can you show the exact culture CO management has created ? I read the Corporate Plan and nowhere does it say screw the customer and make them leave. News to us that we are to trump the customer experience with some sort of corporate efficiency. Are there some examples that can be shown ? I've checked in numerous times, and the folks around me seem to like the check in process. Did not see anyone saying it was bad or the worst.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 43):
So many awards, so many accolades, yet they don't exist anymore and the one person who's job is to sustain profitability at United and cannot is from Continental.

Incorrect. Funny that we made a profit for 2012, excluding special items. Your post is incorrect. Many employees are waiting for that profit sharing check too. You are wrong again on another point, haven't heard of any layoffs of Continental employees, we are still here and part of the new United.

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 44):
Exactly. What's done is done and now is now. The reality is that UA dosn't stack up well among the most important segment of their customers...the 20% who produce 80% of the revenue (not actual numbers...). That's what's missing. And the sooner UA comes to terms with this, the sooner it can rise from its proverbial ashes.

This statement is in contradiction with the facts. Our revenue per seat went up and our cost per seat went up. The numbers do not support your post. United is spending money to improve the interiors. United is not in ashes, it is going through a costly and time consuming merger.

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 44):
CO was once great. I was a Plat on CO starting under Gordo. And continued to be a Plat under Larry and then Jeff and now Plat on UA. The reality is that the slide of CO started under Larry (some would say late in Gordo's tenure). By the time Jeff came to run CO, the company was in full decline mode. Upgrade rates were plummeting, amenities slashed everywhere, service become ultra poor. And through it all, that CO sense of "rahrah we're the best" kept employees thinking they were the best in the business when they clearly no longer were. We frequent flyers saw it. I bailed CO as my primary carrier in 2009 because it had become unbearable. You'd do yourself a favor and really look at the trajectory CO had taken over the years, especially since Gordo left.

Your opinion, our 'rah rah rah' showed we were doing a lot right, and that 'rah rah rah' brought us from the very bottom to the top. The times were bad around the world, and in the economy. Stuff happens. So you bailed in 2009 and now fly on American Airlines ? How's that going with all their issues ? And American is not even going through a merger yet. Loose seats, bankruptcy, service and attitude problems. That must be working out great. I'm sure they will work it out eventually and American will get better.

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 45):
This is one of your favorite retorts but it's flat-out wrong.

  

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 46):
Gotta get the PRASM back up at the new UA if they want to compete with DL. Even AA and US have seen their PRASM go up compared to UA's declining one.

Again, incorrect. From above '(PRASM) increased 1.7 percent in 2012 compared to 2011'.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 47):
I didn't know it was either until someone posted it, sure seemed strange to me since CO was all I flew from 1986 till the merger and can't remember getting pissed at all. Oh well.

The only thing that makes me pissed now, is after the merger, I very rarely get 1st Class, because of all the upgrades going on. Never have seen that before. And the folks upgraded sure are happy. Thank goodness for legUnited E+.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 47):
I've had two such itineraries within the last six months and have found no issues getting checked in or getting changed to a different connecting flight on another Star Alliance partner due to a late arriving flight which delayed our flight. Other than the delays we all know about and all suffer through I can't agree with you.

Haven't seen or heard of any issues either.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 47):
I've been taken care of when it was needed and not had any issues, knock on wood!
I have noticed some changes in the last couple of months for the good, baby steps but still steps forward. Hopefully the trend will continue and profits will rise as will the entire experience on UA. Another year like last will certainly not sit will with investors or customers.

We'll get there. People are getting over the shock of two airlines that did not have a lot of love for each other, even though we were siblings, and now are getting on with becoming United.

Quoting United1 (Reply 48):
...indeed...check in on UA is very easy. On my phone, on the web or at the airport...and the automatic check in for the return flight is a nice feature.

Seems to work fine for me too.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 49):
Spot on Marine!! Even I the Army guy can't foul that up!

I, a Air Force guy hasn't stewed it up too bad neither.

Quoting EaglePower83 (Reply 50):
Of course it will be.
Since everything PMUA has been jettisoned anyway, since it was deemed inferior by the new CO regime. .


Incorrect, Many things from subUnited have been kept.


Quoting EaglePower83 (Reply 50):
UA had a rough reputation, but by the time 2008 turned the corner, they were running a smooth operation that [most] people enjoyed flying.


And were a shell of the powerhouse that was once United. With worn interiors and many different paint jobs, United postponed many things and was at the bottom of airline customer satisfaction ratings. Now United is getting things done and fixing things slowly.


Quoting EaglePower83 (Reply 50):
I was a hardcore UA supporter and customer, and wanted the merger to work very much. But when EVERY flight in 2012 was either late, MX or my reservations were flubbed......I couldn't take it anymore.
Enough is enough, especially when all my flights are out of my pocket.
Simply said, they've lost their dependability.

How am I supposed to appologize for UA when all my new AA flights since Aug-12 have been completely drama free?

I wish UA luck, being Sweet Home Chicago's resident airline, but there needs to be a mea culpa or regime change over there at Le Shipe Rudderless.


EVERY Flight ?    76% of our flights were on time departures for 2012, and the pilots negotiating a contract might of had a little bit to do with that.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 52):
Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 51):
So let me get this straight...
Where the heck were you?


Seconded.

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 57):
Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 44):You'd do yourself a favor and really look at the trajectory CO had taken over the years, especially since Gordo left.
Agreed.

Yes, we became so bad that United merged with us, over USAir. Sure. We should have just closed the doors. Let's see, according to Fortune, JD Powers, WSJ and USAToday;
in Fortune magazine ranked Continental 2004's No. 1 Most Admired Global Airline Gordon Bethune's last year, a title it earned again in 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2008 without Gordon Bethune.
2005- Continental Airlines, now a part of United Continental Holdings Inc., held the second spot at 64 for customer satisfaction rating.
2006- JetBlue, Continental tops in airline customer satisfaction rating.
2007- Southwest tops, Continental second in airline customer satisfaction.
2008- Tops were Alaska Air and Continental Airlines, each with five stars followed by Delta Air Lines with four stars, Air Canada, American Airlines and US Airways, three stars each, and Northwest Airlines and United Airlines, two stars each.
2009- Alaska Airlines ranks highest in network carrier segment for a second consecutive year, and performs particularly well in five of seven measures: flight crew; aircraft; boarding/deplaning/baggage; check-in; and reservation. Continental Airlines and Delta Airlines, respectively, follow Alaska Airlines in the rankings. Continental Airlines performs particularly well in the in-flight services and cost and fees measures.
2010- Alaska Airlines ranks highest in the traditional network carrier segment for a third consecutive year and performs particularly well in six of the seven measures: flight crew; aircraft; boarding/deplaning/baggage; check-in; cost and fees; and reservation. Continental Airlines and American Airlines, respectively, follow Alaska Airlines in the rankings. Continental Airlines performs particularly well in the in-flight services measure.
2011- The No. 2 airline for customer satisfaction was Continental (CAL) with an overall score of 64. http://www.dailyfinance.com/2011/06/...for-airline-customer-satisfaction/
2012- After our SOC, Continental, now United "United still at bottom of airline satisfaction ratings.' http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...ssenger-satisfaction-claes-fornell

Do not see it. Looked like our trajectory was just fine. And in almost all of those surveys, subUnited was at the bottom. Hopefully, that will change soon for our new United.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: United1
Posted 2013-01-24 20:25:52 and read 5475 times.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 72):
The only thing that makes me pissed now, is after the merger, I very rarely get 1st Class, because of all the upgrades going on. Never have seen that before.

I thought CO invented complimentary upgrades for their elites?

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: lucky777
Posted 2013-01-24 20:31:18 and read 5432 times.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 71):
Quoting jayunited (Reply 66):
In fact Delta's first airplane a 777 with true lie flat seating did role out the hangar till the end of January 2011.

DL got lie flat seats on their 777s starting in 2008.

True...starting with the 777LR's. The ER's would start getting the lie-flats in 2011 i believe though, correct?

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: CALTECH
Posted 2013-01-24 20:39:40 and read 5398 times.

Quoting United1 (Reply 73):
I thought CO invented complimentary upgrades for their elites?

Have never seen it at this level. 1st Class could be wide open, I'll be first on the standby list and boom, don't get the upgrade. Remember when not getting 1st Class was the rarity. Even on company business, can't get the upgrade anymore.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: chiawei
Posted 2013-01-24 20:53:11 and read 5297 times.

When your 1k member would choose SQ lounge over your lounge in SFO, your airline is in trouble.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: MasseyBrown
Posted 2013-01-24 22:17:38 and read 4905 times.

Quoting EaglePower83 (Reply 50):
but there needs to be a mea culpa or regime change over there at Le Shipe Rudderless.

If you listen to today's earnings webcast, you will hear a 'mea maxima culpa' from Smisek, maybe even an over-apology for the troubles of last 2012. I think management is very focused on getting today's operations right before they try to do more.

Another comment from the webcast: the real reason for the extra-large schedule reduction post-Christmas and the very gradual add-backs was to improve system performance reliability. They cut the system sked back to what they thought they could actually manage efficiently.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2013-01-24 22:47:28 and read 4773 times.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 66):

I said all of that to say that in 2010 when Delta was two years into their merger they were not installing lie flat seating on their planes. In fact Delta's first airplane a 777 with true lie flat seating did role out the hangar till the end of January 2011.

....If your going to bring Delta into this, at least do it right. The first LR came in 2008 with lie-flats.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-01-25 02:32:51 and read 4218 times.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 66):
all employees will be receiving their share of $119 million dollars on Febuary 14, 2013.
Quoting CALTECH (Reply 72):
Co-workers earned $119 million in profit sharing for full-year 2012, which will be distributed on Feb. 14, 2013.

For comparison, DL employees will get $372 million in profit sharing which will also be distributed Feb 14, 2013.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: EaglePower83
Posted 2013-01-25 05:49:33 and read 3641 times.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 72):
Quoting EaglePower83 (Reply 50):
I was a hardcore UA supporter and customer, and wanted the merger to work very much. But when EVERY flight in 2012 was either late, MX or my reservations were flubbed......I couldn't take it anymore.
Enough is enough, especially when all my flights are out of my pocket.
Simply said, they've lost their dependability.
Quoting CALTECH (Reply 72):
EVERY Flight ? 76% of our flights were on time departures for 2012, and the pilots negotiating a contract might of had a little bit to do with that.

YES, every flight. I had 6 round trip flights in 2012 prior to August '12 andEVERY one of them was delayed or MX broken.
I'm not kidding.
Oh, and my brother's 1 flight I booked him home from CO, was MX delayed on the return. Even though I set him up with HRS of buffer, he missed his last shuttle to Vail, and had to rent a car to not miss work and be fired.
Did UA reimburse for that flub and rental car fee? Of course not.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-01-25 06:32:43 and read 3515 times.

Quoting EaglePower83 (Reply 82):
YES, every flight. I had 6 round trip flights in 2012 prior to August '12 andEVERY one of them was delayed or MX broken.

It got pretty bad, for a multitude of reasons, but it's also mostly under control now.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2013-01-25 08:23:18 and read 3337 times.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 85):
United must be doing something good for customers as 1st Class is always full.

Except that UA's revenue growth is way behind it's competitors, so it's not doing anything that good. UA's management admitted yesterday that corporate traffic was underperforming and that many corporate customers were taking a "detour" around UA.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: F9animal
Posted 2013-01-25 09:18:05 and read 3227 times.

I still wonder if this merger was beneficial to either airline. Whats done is done. I hope UA gets itself profitable sooner than later. Meaning, profitable in all quarters.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: klwright69
Posted 2013-01-25 09:53:50 and read 3156 times.

UA operations seem to be doing better from my little unscientific sample.

Last year, UA flights 846/847 were interesting to look at. UAs flights from a CO hub. EWR-EZE and back.

Last spring and summer the above flight was cancelled or delayed (often by 8-12 hours) at least 12-16 times.

Now, it runs on-time, early, or only a few minutes late (not over an hour) most nights. So obviously things are turning. Not scientific, but still an insightful sample.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: gigneil
Posted 2013-01-25 12:33:03 and read 2948 times.

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 90):
Compare them to DL and AA numbers...dismal performance.

Compare them for us. Please.

NS

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: Flighty
Posted 2013-01-25 12:52:24 and read 2914 times.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 88):
I still wonder if this merger was beneficial to either airline.

If their HQ were in IAH, it would have turned out differently. CO getting more size and UA getting CO's management. But, that's not what happened. UA's management had to be appeased... what for, it is hard to imagine.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: United1
Posted 2013-01-25 13:16:29 and read 2845 times.

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 90):
Believe the analysts that have already downgraded UA stock since the call...

UAs stock price is actually up from close of business on Wednesday prior to UA announcing its results for the quarter. UAs quarterly loss was no shock to the market or the analyst community as they have been projecting one since early 2012.

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 90):
The first question every good management team should ask themselves every day is "how can I make this airline a better airline". And I am not talking about how to cut more cost for shareholder benefit. I am talking about ho to make the flying experience better so a to attract more customers and be able to command a pricing premium. It certainly doesn't seem like UA management is asking themselves that question nearly often and honestly enough.

I think they ask themselves that question quite a bit....its reflected on the on-board product that they have been rolling out over the last year and the technological improvements that are either in place or in the works.

More fully flat seats then anyone else
more aircraft with IFE then any other legacy (98% of the fleet has IFE installed)
overhaling and upgrading the soft product on every flight
ExPlus on all large turboprops and large RJs
Economy Plus on all mainline, large RJs and large turboprops
WiFi, that works overwater, on every mainline aircraft (300 aircraft will have the system by end of year 2013) along with streaming video
overhauling every United Club in the system (and building a few new ones)
larger overhead bins on the Airbi fleet (70+ aircraft have the system already)
new seats on the Airbi fleet
hundreds of new aircraft on order
overhauling United.com and adding a overlay to make it easier for Agents to use SHARES
iPads for every pilot
new uniforms


They did a ton of heavy lifting during 2012 in order to start to merge the products together...2013 is when you will see allot of these projects complete.

On time performance, baggage handling, customer service scores...all those metrics that we love to discuss and dissect on here are going in the right direction.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: gigneil
Posted 2013-01-25 13:23:13 and read 2820 times.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 94):
UA's management had to be appeased... what for, it is hard to imagine.

...for knowing how to run an airline roughly 3 times the size with a significantly different addresses market of customers and a high level of automation?

NS

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-01-25 13:37:10 and read 2797 times.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 89):
UA's management had to be appeased... what for, it is hard to imagine.

It wasn't UA management so much as Chicago and Illinois, who had friends in very high places, one in particulary.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 91):
...for knowing how to run an airline

Well, let's not get carried away.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: aaexecplat
Posted 2013-01-25 13:42:18 and read 2764 times.

My post was deleted? Seriously? Not a single offensive word in it. Maybe that's my clue that criticism of UA is not permitted in this thread. Very well.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: Sulley
Posted 2013-01-25 14:27:22 and read 2693 times.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 75):
Have never seen it at this level. 1st Class could be wide open, I'll be first on the standby list and boom, don't get the upgrade. Remember when not getting 1st Class was the rarity. Even on company business, can't get the upgrade anymore.

So many upgradeable elites now... I used to get F regularly from MCO. I think I've gotten it once or twice in 2012 on a domestic flight.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: kordcj
Posted 2013-01-25 14:39:22 and read 2664 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 89):

I'm sorry but Obama had nothing to do with the decision to stay headquartered in Chicago. It was simply a matter of a deal the city struck with PMUA that the new UA couldn't afford to back away from. I don't know why that is so hard for everyone to understand.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: slider
Posted 2013-01-25 14:44:44 and read 2648 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 89):
It wasn't UA management so much as Chicago and Illinois, who had friends in very high places, one in particulary.

BINGO. It had to pass DOJ muster and that was only going to happen with nudging from POTUS to get it done. Typical Chicago politics.

Quoting kordcj (Reply 92):
I'm sorry but Obama had nothing to do with the decision to stay headquartered in Chicago. It was simply a matter of a deal the city struck with PMUA that the new UA couldn't afford to back away from. I don't know why that is so hard for everyone to understand.

Sorry, wrong. Do you honestly think the deal to move to Willis couldn't have been undone in the merger? It was a $35M incentive package by the city of Chicago...in a merger to form a $26B company, that's change in the couch cushions, bub.

That deal with sUA and the city could have easily been spooled back from. And I GUARANTEE that for obvious reasons, what hit they took int he short term would have been more than made up for through incentives then laid out by Houston, Harris County, state of TX, whatever, as well as a lower cost of doing business, happier employees who have more dough in their pocket and bank accounts, etc, etc, etc.... we've talked about all this ad nauseam.

But if you're going to say Obama had nothing to do with it, you're just flat out wrong.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-01-25 14:51:27 and read 2633 times.

Quoting slider (Reply 93):
That deal with sUA and the city could have easily been spooled back from. And I GUARANTEE that for obvious reasons, what hit they took int he short term would have been more than made up for through incentives then laid out by Houston, Harris County, state of TX, whatever, as well as a lower cost of doing business, happier employees who have more dough in their pocket and bank accounts, etc, etc, etc.... we've talked about all this ad nauseam.

   Chicago is bah-roke. IL even more so. There's no way they had any meaningful financial leverage. Political leverage, however, is another story.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: SonomaFlyer
Posted 2013-01-25 15:41:44 and read 2565 times.

Quoting Sulley (Reply 91):

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 75):
Have never seen it at this level. 1st Class could be wide open, I'll be first on the standby list and boom, don't get the upgrade. Remember when not getting 1st Class was the rarity. Even on company business, can't get the upgrade anymore.

So many upgradeable elites now... I used to get F regularly from MCO. I think I've gotten it once or twice in 2012 on a domestic flight.

Perhaps UA will do something along the lines of what DL has done with their frequent flier program. I know you elites will boil at someone saying this but the current system doesn't make sense. Too many "elites" chasing too few seats which dilutes the whole point of being an elite in the first place.

There's are reasons first class is going away. One reason is the overall economy and the other is that almost everyone riding in first is doing it as a freebie because of their elite status rather than paying in cash or miles.

If they based elite status on revenue generated (they know exactly how much each of you has paid), you'll have a smaller elite pool and a more meaningful reward system.

[Edited 2013-01-25 15:53:23]

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: tommy767
Posted 2013-01-25 15:44:59 and read 2555 times.

Quoting United1 (Reply 87):
hundreds of new aircraft on order
Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 95):
There's a reason first class is going away. One reason is the overall economy and the other is that almost everyone riding in first is doing it a a freebie because of their elite status rather than paying in cash or miles.

where do people come up with this stuff?

It's not. Despite the threads on a.net you might see, oftentimes its far from the truth.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: United1
Posted 2013-01-25 15:52:30 and read 2537 times.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 96):
where do people come up with this stuff?
Quoting tommy767 (Reply 96):
hundreds of new aircraft on order

United has 250 aircraft on order....I got that from their 10K.  

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: tommy767
Posted 2013-01-25 15:56:46 and read 2516 times.

Quoting United1 (Reply 97):
United has 250 aircraft on order....I got that from their 10K.

I meant take away first class -- no evidence at all except a.net gossip.

Great, they have new aircraft on order. Completely useless if they are losing money well into the future.

[Edited 2013-01-25 15:57:03]

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: SonomaFlyer
Posted 2013-01-25 15:57:53 and read 2515 times.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 96):
Quoting United1 (Reply 87):
hundreds of new aircraft on order
Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 95):
There's a reason first class is going away. One reason is the overall economy and the other is that almost everyone riding in first is doing it a a freebie because of their elite status rather than paying in cash or miles.

where do people come up with this stuff?

It's not. Despite the threads on a.net you might see, oftentimes its far from the truth.

I don't mind being corrected so please point out what is wrong? We know first class is going away on many international (sorry I didn't clarify) routes for economic reasons. If a vast majority of international first class is filled with paying passengers, please cite me to the figures. If that is so, it means UA is doing the opposite of what they should be doing with international first class.

UA has hundreds of new a/c on order:

50 787s minimum;
25 359s minimum;
A new narrow body order that is a minimum order of 150 narrow body jets - source: http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=2342

The number could grow depending on options exercised.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: tommy767
Posted 2013-01-25 16:42:44 and read 2447 times.

flyertalk is hatin' on this situation. Worth a looksie:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/unite...r-fourth-quarter-2012-results.html

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-01-25 16:47:03 and read 2425 times.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 100):
flyertalk is hatin' on this situation. Worth a looksie:

They hate everything. They also don't have a clue what they're talking about. For any airline.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 98):
I meant take away first class -- no evidence at all except a.net gossip.

Three class F is going the way of the dodo bird, around the world, at just about every carrier. Even EK has publicly stated its F (shower included) is underwhelming.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: United1
Posted 2013-01-25 16:59:16 and read 2393 times.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 98):
I meant take away first class -- no evidence at all except a.net gossip.

There is allot of evidence that F class is being scaled back, or going away, at many carriers. AA is the latest by removing F on their 772's and even EK is talking about cutting back. I think UA will always have some level of F class but I think you will see it scaled back quite a bit....removing it from P.S. is a hint of things to come. My guess is eventually they will eliminate F on all aircraft types except whatever replaces the 744 fleet.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: tommy767
Posted 2013-01-25 17:06:05 and read 2376 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 101):
They hate everything. They also don't have a clue what they're talking about. For any airline.

You could EASILY make the same argument about these forum as well.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-01-25 17:59:46 and read 2318 times.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 103):
You could EASILY make the same argument about these forum as well.

I think this forum is weighted more toward people who are in the industry and are familiar with the complexities of it, where as flyertalk is more people who *think* they know by virtue of flying a lot, mixed with a dash of Stockholm syndrome. It's like me sounding off in a financial forum because I use the ATM a lot.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: SonomaFlyer
Posted 2013-01-25 18:31:43 and read 2274 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 104):
mixed with a dash of Stockholm syndrome.

  

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: BEG2IAH
Posted 2013-01-25 18:45:51 and read 2255 times.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 103):
You could EASILY make the same argument about these forum as well.

I wonder what has Continental done to you in the past to be so bitter in every single post. This is beyond trolling and it sounds just like Flyertalk, maybe even worse.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: MasseyBrown
Posted 2013-01-26 08:46:55 and read 1908 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 104):
I think this forum is weighted more toward people who are in the industry and are familiar with the complexities of it, where as flyertalk is more people who *think* they know by virtue of flying a lot, mixed with a dash of Stockholm syndrome. It's like me sounding off in a financial forum because I use the ATM a lot.

With exceptions, I wouldn't say posters in this forum are broadly savvy on corporate finance. Even when someone makes an astute or insightful financial observation in a thread, you will see an ignorant comment on the identical point a half dozen posts later.

I guess that is what the respect ratings are for.

Topic: RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss
Username: dtwlax
Posted 2013-01-26 10:42:31 and read 1802 times.

Quoting United1 (Reply 87):
more aircraft with IFE then any other legacy (98% of the fleet has IFE installed)

get your facts right. What kind of IFE are you talking about? Overhead monitors? DL has long had that except maybe for the Airbus fleet. DL has much more aircrafts equipped with PTVs than UA and they do not charge for Live TV.

Quoting United1 (Reply 87):
WiFi, that works overwater, on every mainline aircraft (300 aircraft will have the system by end of year 2013) along with streaming video

Heck... UA still does not have wifi on domestic flights... long way behind AA & DL.


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