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Topic: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: tommy767
Posted 2013-01-24 20:30:54 and read 18854 times.

Some of the BOS-SFO flight times are reaching 7+ hours. That's really long for transcon -- but it makes sense since it's about 11 degrees here in NJ with the Canadian cold front coming through. Here are some examples:

BOS-SFO:
UA 1796, 7 hours: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/U...6/history/20130124/2250Z/KBOS/KSFO
UA 1057, 7 hours: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/U...7/history/20130124/2135Z/KBOS/KSFO
B6 633, DIVERTED 6hrs 7min to LAS: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/J...3/history/20130124/2119Z/KBOS/KLAS

EWR-SFO:
UA 1054, 6 hrs 36 min: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/U...4/history/20130125/0005Z/KEWR/KSFO

RDU-SFO:
UA 1629, 5hrs 51 min: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/U...9/history/20130124/1200Z/KRDU/KSFO

ATL-SEA:
DL 109, 4hrs 57 min: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/D...9/history/20130124/2250Z/KATL/KSEA

EWR-LAS:
UA 1284, 5hrs 45min: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/U...4/history/20130124/1550Z/KEWR/KLAS

Some crazy examples! See if you can find any others out there

PS: Is there a reason why some of these UA 737s on BOS-SFO are 7hrs flying time but the 757s are a little over 6hrs 30mins?

Topic: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: gdg9
Posted 2013-01-24 20:36:21 and read 18827 times.

So how much shorter were the eastbound flights then?

Topic: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-01-24 20:38:19 and read 18811 times.

Sounds nuts. Did they anticipate this and load more food on board? I'd be really hungry

Quoting tommy767 (Thread starter):
B6 633, DIVERTED 6hrs 7min to LAS: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/J.../KLAS

Did they not put enough gas in the plane in anticipation ?   

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/J...7/history/20130124/2212Z/KBOS/KPHX
Looks like flights to here in PHX were routed southerly today instead of northerly.

Topic: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: mah4546
Posted 2013-01-24 20:38:50 and read 18816 times.

Quoting gdg9 (Reply 1):

So how much shorter were the eastbound flights then?


I flew LAXMIA a few weeks ago with extreme tailwinds - 3 hours, 29 minutes take off to touchdown.

[Edited 2013-01-24 20:39:16]

Topic: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: tommy767
Posted 2013-01-24 20:41:20 and read 18789 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 2):
Sounds nuts. Did they anticipate this and load more food on board? I'd be really hungry

Probably not but damn being on a UA 737 for 7 hours -- that has to be torture. Hopefully they still have food and drink after 6 hours!

Topic: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: IAHFLYR
Posted 2013-01-24 20:47:41 and read 18718 times.

Quoting tommy767 (Thread starter):
Is there a reason why some of these UA 737s on BOS-SFO are 7hrs flying time but the 757s are a little over 6hrs 30mins?



From your post and links I don't find a 757 flying BOS-SFO, only 738/9. Could be the 73's are using more of an ECON speed while the more fuel capable 75'7 is simply running along at .82. In any event glad I am not on any of them as I've had my but in airplane seats for 13 hours already this week.

Topic: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: questions
Posted 2013-01-24 20:54:26 and read 18627 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 2):
Did they anticipate this and load more food on board? I'd be really hungry
Quoting tommy767 (Reply 4):
Hopefully they still have food and drink after 6 hours!

Are you kidding? Do you think they would anticipate anything like this? Even if they did, do you think they would think through the implications to the customer? Of course not. They simply don't care.

Always pack snacks. Always pick up water in the terminal. Regardless of class of service.

Never depend on an airline to take care of you. The concept of service and hospitality left the airline business years ago.

Topic: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: StarAC17
Posted 2013-01-24 20:56:36 and read 18601 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 2):
Did they not put enough gas in the plane in anticipation ?  

Probably pushing to exceeding the MTOW of an A320 if they had a full load and full fuel. I recall from an earlier thread about strong winds that the fuel stop is planned from before departure as it is still the most economical option.

Quoting tommy767 (Thread starter):
PS: Is there a reason why some of these UA 737s on BOS-SFO are 7hrs flying time but the 757s are a little over 6hrs 30mins?

Difference in cruising speed I would think.

IIRC the 757 cruises at Mach 0.80 and the 737 cruises at Mach 0.78, may only be a few knots but it adds up over 2000 or so nm.

Topic: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: XFSUgimpLB41X
Posted 2013-01-24 21:03:34 and read 18541 times.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 7):
IRC the 757 cruises at Mach 0.80 and the 737 cruises at Mach 0.78, may only be a few knots but it adds up over 2000 or so nm.

That depends on the cost index they are flightplanned for. The 757 can cruise faster, but for the most part runs around at .78 or .79 just like the other fleets at my airline.

Topic: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: mercure1
Posted 2013-01-24 21:06:42 and read 18501 times.

Quoting tommy767 (Thread starter):

The 737 and 757 planned on the same route?

Topic: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: Mir
Posted 2013-01-24 21:09:46 and read 18475 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 2):
Did they not put enough gas in the plane in anticipation ?

I'm sure they put on all the fuel they could. Wasn't enough.

-Mir

Topic: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: ikramerica
Posted 2013-01-24 21:15:25 and read 18418 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 3):
I flew LAXMIA a few weeks ago with extreme tailwinds - 3 hours, 29 minutes take off to touchdown.

I was expecting this on LAX-MCO-LAX last week, but the jetstream has moved north and the southern US has almost no wind aloft. We had no speedy east bound flight nor did we have a slow west bound. On the east bound, the moving map said tail wind of about 30 mph most of the way. Nothing much.

Topic: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: tommy767
Posted 2013-01-24 21:18:25 and read 18390 times.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 9):
The 737 and 757 planned on the same route?
Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 5):
From your post and links I don't find a 757 flying BOS-SFO, only 738/9.

You both need to dig deeper  

BOS-SFO UA 297 757:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/U...7/history/20130124/1306Z/KBOS/KSFO

6 hrs 29 mins.

A half hour is a big difference. Is it really just a few numbers off on cruising speed?

Topic: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: iowaman
Posted 2013-01-24 21:30:06 and read 18270 times.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 12):
You both need to dig deeper

BOS-SFO UA 297 757:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/U...7/history/20130124/1306Z/KBOS/KSFO

6 hrs 29 mins.

A half hour is a big difference. Is it really just a few numbers off on cruising speed?


Does a 757 gain altitude and speed quicker (anyone)? Maybe explains part of the difference if so.

7 hours on BOS-SFO has to be pushing it on a 737-900 if it's near MTOW I would think? Of course it if wasn't a full or near full flight that greatly helps.

Topic: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: Caryjack
Posted 2013-01-24 21:37:34 and read 18229 times.

Quoting tommy767 (Thread starter):
ATL-SEA:
DL 109, 4hrs 57 min:


This one dosn't seem that bad, but it was a B-767 and maybe should have got along quicker. Looks like they left a half hour late and arrived a few minutes early.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 4):
Probably not but damn being on a UA 737 for 7 hours -- that has to be torture. Hopefully they still have food and drink after 6 hours!

I didn't think a B-737 in revenue service could stay in the air that long. I certainly wouldn't want to be there. I sometimes fly between SEA and MIA on AS B-737s and expect to be in the air 5 1/2 hours or so.
Thanks,   
Cary

Topic: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: tommy767
Posted 2013-01-24 22:11:30 and read 17990 times.

Quoting Caryjack (Reply 14):
I didn't think a B-737 in revenue service could stay in the air that long. I certainly wouldn't want to be there. I sometimes fly between SEA and MIA on AS B-737s and expect to be in the air 5 1/2 hours or so.
Thanks,
Cary

A point of correction: flight aware usually does a poor job of distinguishing a 739 or 738 with United. I believe the BOS-SFO routes are 738s, which happen to be listed at 739.

IMHO, I don't think the 739ER can do 7 hours in the air with full payload. I believe at the max it can do is 6hrs to 6hrs 30mins at the most.

Topic: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2013-01-24 22:47:58 and read 17803 times.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 15):
IMHO, I don't think the 739ER can do 7 hours in the air with full payload.

If "full payload" is a low-density configuration like UA's, it shouldn't have any trouble with 7 hours, but that's the limit.

Topic: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: MSPNWA
Posted 2013-01-24 23:44:01 and read 17581 times.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 12):
A half hour is a big difference. Is it really just a few numbers off on cruising speed?

Yep. Even a couple hundredths faster makes the difference in the long run. The 757 has that little extra speed over a 737.

Topic: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: toobz
Posted 2013-01-25 02:24:37 and read 17132 times.

Quoting Caryjack (Reply 14):

I'm with you! I don't find DLs ATL-SEA to be that off at all. 4h57mins sounds about right..maybe a few mins more than average. Can't tell you how many times I've sat on a flight over 5hrs flying PDX-ATL.

Topic: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: warreng24
Posted 2013-01-25 04:41:50 and read 16632 times.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 15):

Correct. BOS-SFO is primarily B752 and B738. No 739 has been scheduled westbound. Occasionally A319 westbound, rarely A320.

UA has previously scheduled a B739 eastbound SFO-BOS though.

Topic: RE: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: laca773
Posted 2013-01-25 05:11:54 and read 16089 times.

VX's BOS-SFO flights were also 7 hours. They downgauge the a/c to a A319 so they don't run into issues with needing to divert.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/V...7/history/20130124/2355Z/KBOS/KSFO . There are several days this month where this flight was on the verge of 7 hours which I'd still consider being that considering boarding, taxing times.

Here's an even longer VX BOS-SFO flight clocked @ 7.33: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/V...1/history/20130116/1335Z/KBOS/KSFO

Topic: RE: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: caljn
Posted 2013-01-25 05:39:55 and read 15588 times.

Quoting iowaman (Reply 13):
Of course it if wasn't a full or near full flight that greatly helps.

I haven't been on a UA flight that wasn't full in years. Years!!

I also do the EWR-LAX run monthly and always dread it....need to gird myself just before boarding as those coach seats, even E+ are torture for 6 hours. Approaching 7 hours would be extremely unpleasant...the nonstop lavatory traffic in the aisles, the aroma and heat from all that humanity pervading the cabin. Ugh!

Topic: RE: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: SRT75
Posted 2013-01-25 05:53:01 and read 15314 times.

Quoting tommy767 (Thread starter):
B6 633, DIVERTED 6hrs 7min to LAS:

Um, I'm obviously missing something here . . .

LAS seems like a very out-of-the-way fuel stop for BOS-SFO. Why not SLC? DEN? Something more on the way?

Topic: RE: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: DualQual
Posted 2013-01-25 06:12:14 and read 14946 times.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 12):
A half hour is a big difference. Is it really just a few numbers off on cruising speed

The general wag is 1 minute per hour per mach. So if the 757 is doing .82 and the 737 is doing .78 that is about 4 min per hour which over the course of 5 hours is 20 minutes. Also are these block times? The 757 might have gotten lucky and gotten right out at a dead time in BOS, gotten into SFO at a dead time so no vectors on arrival, didn't have to wait on a gate, etc. A lot of seemingly little things can add up in a hurry.

Topic: RE: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: gdg9
Posted 2013-01-25 06:41:52 and read 14437 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 3):
I flew LAXMIA a few weeks ago with extreme tailwinds - 3 hours, 29 minutes take off to touchdown.

Impressive!

Topic: RE: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: tommy767
Posted 2013-01-25 07:04:27 and read 14609 times.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 16):

If "full payload" is a low-density configuration like UA's, it shouldn't have any trouble with 7 hours, but that's the limit.

I honestly don't think so. How is a UA 737 low density in even the least? A few years ago I saw on flight aware 739s diverting on CLE-LAX because of head wind.

Quoting DualQual (Reply 23):
The general wag is 1 minute per hour per mach. So if the 757 is doing .82 and the 737 is doing .78 that is about 4 min per hour which over the course of 5 hours is 20 minutes

ah, gotcha that makes sense. I never knew the 737s were that much slower than the 757.

Topic: RE: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2013-01-25 07:42:15 and read 14007 times.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 25):
How is a UA 737 low density in even the least?

167 or 173 passengers is low-density for a 737-900ER, which is certified for 215 passengers.

A Lion Air 737-900ER with all seats full couldn't stay in the air for seven hours. United's actually do it from time to time (like yesterday).

Topic: RE: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: Mir
Posted 2013-01-25 08:06:12 and read 13858 times.

Quoting SRT75 (Reply 22):
LAS seems like a very out-of-the-way fuel stop for BOS-SFO. Why not SLC? DEN? Something more on the way?

If the route you're going to fly to avoid winds takes you closer to LAS anyway, that's where it makes most sense to stop.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: threeifbyair
Posted 2013-01-25 08:21:57 and read 13599 times.

It was bad on Wednesday too.

ASA3 (DCA-SEA) took a southern routing flying over the KY-IN border, 6h05m in the air. My mother was none to happy about that.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...3/history/20130123/2335Z/KDCA/KSEA

Topic: RE: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: airproxx
Posted 2013-01-25 08:28:34 and read 13431 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 2):
Did they not put enough gas in the plane in anticipation ?

An A320 without ACT can carry 18,7t of fuel (without any payload consideration).
With an average fuel flow of about 2,5t/hour for both engines, it can hardly fly more than 6/6,5 hours with standard fuel reserves (a final reserve is about 1t on this type)...
So they probably put as much fuel as they could, considering a decent payload, and "planned" a diversion in LAS.

Cheers

Topic: RE: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: flyer737sw
Posted 2013-01-25 08:55:56 and read 12926 times.

I was looking at the winds yesterday via NOAA's site and the winds aloft at FL 380 was 150kts. The direction of the jet stream would have affected flights more on a northern course, heading west with the wind right on the nose. Would of been a good day flying easterly routes.

Topic: RE: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: KC135TopBoom
Posted 2013-01-25 09:00:59 and read 12787 times.

Well, it is the middle of winter here in the Northern Hemisphere. Having headwinds (westbound) in the 125-150 knot range is really not all that unusual.

Topic: RE: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: tommy767
Posted 2013-01-25 09:05:28 and read 12689 times.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 26):
A Lion Air 737-900ER with all seats full couldn't stay in the air for seven hours. United's actually do it from time to time (like yesterday).

they were 738s, not 739s. Again, I'm pretty sure a strong headwind on BOS-SFO with a 739 wouldn't make it without diverting

Topic: RE: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: usairways85
Posted 2013-01-25 09:18:49 and read 12466 times.

On the reverse my ORD-PHL flt last night had some nice tail winds and was in the air 15 minutes less than normal. That is a pretty big difference for a shorter stage flight.

Topic: RE: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: redzeppelin
Posted 2013-01-25 09:36:31 and read 12101 times.

Quoting SRT75 (Reply 22):
LAS seems like a very out-of-the-way fuel stop for BOS-SFO. Why not SLC? DEN? Something more on the way?

You may have heard that SLC was shut down for several hours yesterday due to an ice storm. The B6 flight in question landed at LAS just a little after SLC re-opened. The track of flightaware looks like they flew just south of DEN before turning toward LAS over southern Utah. It really doesn't look like LAS was too far off.

Topic: RE: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: rampbro
Posted 2013-01-25 10:02:25 and read 11613 times.

How do airlines mitigate the added costs associated with strong headwinds such as these? Is there a 1:1 with the savings of flying with a tailwind in the opposite direction? Or is it a 'grin and bear it' type of situation?

Topic: RE: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: 9w748capt
Posted 2013-01-25 10:15:05 and read 11476 times.

On the flipside looks like they're making great time eastbound. Look at VX 1358 - 4:32 SFO-BOS yesterday - sure beats 7h going the other way! Most EB flights are pushing (if not exceeding) 500 knots too.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/V...8/history/20130124/2105Z/KSFO/KBOS

Topic: RE: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2013-01-25 10:15:35 and read 11427 times.

Quoting rampbro (Reply 35):
How do airlines mitigate the added costs associated with strong headwinds such as these? Is there a 1:1 with the savings of flying with a tailwind in the opposite direction? Or is it a 'grin and bear it' type of situation?

High headwinds overall are added costs. The late arrivals into the west coast airports cause delays and missed connections. The early arrivals into the east coast airports cause gates to stack up, and some tarmac arrival delays. Overall, the total fuel burn is sometimes less. The headwinds cause a lot more fuel to be burned, but the tail winds make up for it. They fly longer routes to avoid headwinds, but in total when you add up the total round trip flight time, it tends to be less with some winds.

The real costs are when west coast arrivals are more than 15 minutes late. That forces missed connections. Fuel stops cause everyone to miss connections and subsequent delays. You can’t depart early to make up for an early east coast arrival, but you will depart late to make up for a long inbound flight. If flights only flew east west it wouldn’t be as bad, but airplanes are often routed BOS-SFO-LAX, which hurts west coast operations.

It’s just a cost of doing business.

Topic: RE: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: Highflier92660
Posted 2013-01-25 10:28:27 and read 11191 times.

During the height of the annual mid-winter transcontinental jetstream battle one has to think of JetBlue and their range-challenged A320s.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/B...3/history/20130124/21192/KBOS/KSFO

Topic: RE: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: idlewildchild
Posted 2013-01-25 19:05:00 and read 4514 times.

Tell you what, 8 hrs 15 mins LHR-EWR on 27DEC in chronic turbulence was no picnic either. I was up front and can't imagine what it was like in the full Y cabin. Nightmare.

Topic: RE: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: DalDC9Bos
Posted 2013-01-26 12:51:39 and read 3151 times.

Hey Tommy,

I worked Ops at JFK for a couple years and these types of winter headwinds and the delays for westbound flights is very normal during the winter. My last flight JFK to SFO during the winter took more than 7.5 hours on the 757.

Jetblue and the airline that I worked for had diverts daily sometimes for our westbound transcons flights. The A319 can make the flight with these headwinds, but the A320 cannot. The usual divert city would be SLC or LAS. The decision on divert city is decided by company flight planning/dispatch before the flight leaves the gate and usually is along the original flight path. Most westbound transcons east coast to SFO or LAX fly near SLC and LAS and not a more northernly path.

Will

Topic: RE: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: haggisman
Posted 2013-01-26 21:01:48 and read 2707 times.

Dunno if it's related but we flew on Alaska Airlines SEA -> LIH on Jan 24th and we were serenaded to the tune of a 6hr 20min flight with ugly moderate to heavy chop for most of the way. Normal average time is mid 5hr range.

It smoothed out on the last 90 mins or so, and they even found time to squeeze in the complimentary Mai tai's to soothe the frazzled nerves. Thanks AS!

Scotty

Topic: RE: Insane Headwinds Jan 25th: 7 Hours BOS-SFO
Username: usxguy
Posted 2013-01-27 02:43:45 and read 2382 times.

I remember USAirways decision to start parking the 757s used on the transcons and replacing them with A321s... FlyerTalk was lit up for MONTHS about all the west-bound diversions... even on USAviation pilots called it a "pig"..


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