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Topic: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: airlinebuilder
Posted 2013-01-19 17:45:35 and read 10911 times.

Hello All just would like to bring in the news re Philippine Airlines finally making a come back into the main stream by opening its destinations and slowly resuming a more expensive network hopefully to surpass its golden years way back when.....

PAL will be commencing 3x a week to ISTANBUL on Aug 5 then come September 4x a week to MOSCOW. On a more imminent movement, on March will be flights to Phnom Penh, Darwin, Brisbane then April its daily flight to KUWAIT.

If all comes to play with its CAT 2 lifting we would definitely see CHICAGO, NEW YORK right away followed by LONDON, PARIS, FRANKFURT and ROME.

Congratulations to PAL, hope we get to hear soon what aircrafts are joining the fleet. They till have 35 more to order.

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: Akiestar
Posted 2013-01-19 17:50:04 and read 10898 times.

Hm? The flights to IST, MOW (SVO or DME), DRW, PNH, KWI, etc. are all still on the drawing board. Sure, PR will start them, but they don't have the permission to do so yet from the CAB.

I actually wonder though if MOW will get off the ground: the Philippines has been targeting Russian tourists quite aggressively. Hopefully this means a partnership with Aeroflot.

[Edited 2013-01-19 17:55:06]

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-01-19 18:05:17 and read 10830 times.

Quoting airlinebuilder (Thread starter):
If all comes to play with its CAT 2 lifting we would definitely see CHICAGO, NEW YORK right away followed by LONDON, PARIS, FRANKFURT and ROME.

I'm curious about the Cat 2 filing against PAL....what were the conditions to get it lifted? I am not too familiar to why it got filed in the first place.

Also could PAL feasibly do NYC with their fleet? Didn't think they had the legs for that...

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: airlinebuilder
Posted 2013-01-19 18:15:14 and read 10797 times.

Hello Akiestar, the MOSCOW is DME. The approval by CAB is just formalities, it is basically approved already. There are a whole lot of flight allocations to the Philippines and v.v. just shelved since there were no capabilities then and the airlines marketing directions then were different as well.

I have insiders at CAB and basically approval is based on the capability and logisitics wise of the carrier to mount flights and technically sustain it that is why as early as now Philippine Airlines was able to let it out in the press already.

They will be utilizing the A330 High Gross Variant. Transero flies to CEBU on charter flights. The Philippines has raised its visibility as a tourist destination and Russia for one has made Cebu in particular a wedding and honeymoon package from their end.

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: airlinebuilder
Posted 2013-01-19 18:22:39 and read 10756 times.

The basis for the CAT 2 was during the integration of the ATO (Air Transportation Office) to the CAAP (Civil Avialtion Authority of the Philippines) supposedly the personnel from the former will be placed on the organizational table of the new CAAP unfortunately the implementations were meddled with a whole lot of politics thus resulting to the new CAAP with positions not filled but in theory all the technical people are present sans the title required which led to the conclusion that safety is compromised due to lack of people as per CAAP table or organization to the letter. (where in fact, there are, all just a matter of filling up the titles) there is your walk through on what went wrong.

Ergo technically the Philippines is qualified to be CAT 1 even way back previous audits.

The T7 were basically intended for the expansions the likes of Chicago and New York and while new planes were joining the fleet the current fleet will sustain the present network, what am saying here is yes they are capable to serve their projected expansion as we speak.

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2013-01-19 18:49:28 and read 10666 times.

Quoting airlinebuilder (Thread starter):
If all comes to play with its CAT 2 lifting we would definitely see CHICAGO, NEW YORK right away followed by LONDON, PARIS, FRANKFURT and ROME.

Is there any market for the European routes or are they just for vanity?

I mean even Qantas is leaving Europe (other than the massive London-XXX-Australia) because of the Middle Eastern carriers... and connections from Europe to Philippines through DXB/DOH/AUH are basically endless and convenient. Flying to IST is a great way to have access to TK's huge network in Europe. Why would they need anything else?

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: eaglefarm4
Posted 2013-01-19 18:59:52 and read 10628 times.

airlinebuilder Hi,

IS BNE still 2 a week via DRW ???? which was mooted previously as being Tuesday and Saturdays? with A320.

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: Akiestar
Posted 2013-01-19 19:07:39 and read 10596 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 5):
Flying to IST is a great way to have access to TK's huge network in Europe. Why would they need anything else?

Filipinos (at least the ones in Europe) will pay for the convenience of flying non-stop to MNL rather than stop once or twice somewhere in the world. This is why Europe-based Filipinos apparently didn't take stopping in TPE very well: when I flew back from WAW, a lot were even surprised that AMS-MNL became AMS-TPE-MNL.

Unlike Filipinos based in the Middle East, Filipinos in Europe are more affluent and can afford flying on more expensive routings if its more convenient. Of course, still within reason.

Don't forget too that PR is targeting areas where there are lots of Filipinos. There are close to 500,000 Filipinos in the UK, and close to 400,000 in Italy, for example. They'll make for strong O-D markets, although granted the traffic PR's chasing (VFR, balikbayan, etc.) is low-yield.

(On TK: I know word's going around that they'll codeshare on MNL-IST, but whether this is indicative of a bigger partnership, I can't say.)

[Edited 2013-01-19 19:10:56]

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: ZK-NBT
Posted 2013-01-19 19:28:06 and read 10527 times.

I've seen AKL mentioned via an Australian port aswell a while back. Any news on this?

I'll believe it when I actually see it though.

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: airlinebuilder
Posted 2013-01-19 19:28:17 and read 10527 times.

Hello Eaglefarm4. Yes the Darwin Brisbane will be utilizing the A320 and be keeping the previously announced scheme that was supposed to have started last December 2012. It will be the "bus stop" scheme I assume.

I agree with you Akiestar, but while awaiting the special arrangment with the EU, the direct flights will eventually be started the PAL the soonest possible opportunity, IST is a warm up so to speak, a peek or a fourth of a foot in?  

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-01-19 19:38:23 and read 10476 times.

Quoting airlinebuilder (Reply 4):
The T7 were basically intended for the expansions the likes of Chicago and New York and while new planes were joining the fleet the current fleet will sustain the present network, what am saying here is yes they are capable to serve their projected expansion as we speak.

I understand what you're saying but the LAS route is served via Vancouver....can the 77W have the range for non stop to NYC or ORD?

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: airlinebuilder
Posted 2013-01-19 20:11:19 and read 10375 times.

Quoting PHX787 I understand what you're saying but the LAS route is served via Vancouver....can the 77W have the range for non stop to NYC or ORD?

Taking into consideration PAL operates transpacific, most likely the ORD/NYC will be via YYZ or LAX

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-01-19 20:23:19 and read 10342 times.

Quoting airlinebuilder (Reply 11):
Taking into consideration PAL operates transpacific, most likely the ORD/NYC will be via YYZ or LAX

That's what concerns me, how profitable will this be?

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: airlinebuilder
Posted 2013-01-19 20:33:22 and read 10317 times.

Based from their performance then when they were serving ORD/EWR, they were doing fairly well. In fact Delta is basically booked on their Manila Narita onwards to Chicago and New York

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: Akiestar
Posted 2013-01-19 22:00:05 and read 10142 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 10):
can the 77W have the range for non stop to NYC or ORD?

Eastbound, yes.

Westbound, they will need to stop somewhere. If I'm not mistaken, this will likely be YVR or HNL.

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: behramjee
Posted 2013-01-19 22:29:02 and read 10085 times.

PAL is digging its own grave by venturing into places such as Moscow and Istanbul when it should be aggressively targeting the Middle East which has higher yields and S/F year round to/from Manila versus Europe.

Relaunching Kuwait is a brilliant move but it needs to also operate:

4 weekly Muscat A333
Daily Dubai B777
Daily Dammam B777
Daily Riyadh B777
Daily Doha B777

And also for the Middle East, it must reconfigure few of its B773ERs into a more higher density layout i.e. 18J / 420Y to achieve better financial performance.

If its an A333IGW in the future planned for the Middle East then it should be configured as 18J / 304Y.

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: Akiestar
Posted 2013-01-19 23:18:08 and read 9993 times.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 15):
PAL is digging its own grave by venturing into places such as Moscow and Istanbul when it should be aggressively targeting the Middle East which has higher yields and S/F year round to/from Manila versus Europe.

Relaunching Kuwait is a brilliant move but it needs to also operate:

4 weekly Muscat A333
Daily Dubai B777
Daily Dammam B777
Daily Riyadh B777
Daily Doha B777

And also for the Middle East, it must reconfigure few of its B773ERs into a more higher density layout i.e. 18J / 420Y to achieve better financial performance.

If its an A333IGW in the future planned for the Middle East then it should be configured as 18J / 304Y.

Uh, PR is planning all of those. They're planning a big return to the Middle East, starting service to, based on what I've heard, DXB (to the point that they opposed EK adding its third DXB-MNL frequency, a complaint that they since dropped), RUH, DOH and KWI, all of which will be served with the new A330-300 HGW.

The 77Ws are designed for Europe and North America, and it will stay that way. No reconfiguration is planned for the fleet, as they will be one of the replacements for the 744s when they exit the fleet in 2017.

Honestly, I don't see why people think PR's digging its own grave when it tries to do something different. In my A.net stalking days, I can recall people saying that "Oh, PR won't make LAS work" or "Oh, PR won't make the 77W work". Well, aside from LAS (which PR said was doing poorly, but we don't know how), it seems that the airline's doing something right. For Europe, it needs to get its foot in the door before the Middle East airlines beat it to the punch, and with Filipinos becoming more affluent, I hope they'll do well on these routes.

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: MHG
Posted 2013-01-20 01:06:23 and read 9817 times.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 16):
Honestly, I don't see why people think PR's digging its own grave when it tries to do something different. In my A.net stalking days, I can recall people saying that "Oh, PR won't make LAS work" or "Oh, PR won't make the 77W work". Well, aside from LAS (which PR said was doing poorly, but we don't know how), it seems that the airline's doing something right. For Europe, it needs to get its foot in the door before the Middle East airlines beat it to the punch, and with Filipinos becoming more affluent, I hope they'll do well on these routes.

I second that !
As much as it seems that PR will be flying to "second best" destinations (IST/DME) just they seem to think out of the box to get things going.
They´re certainly working hard to get the EU ban lifted and if those routes to IST and DME do work PR won´t trade them in for EU-destinations after the ban is lifted eventually.

For me it seems PR is deliberately forced to think out of the box which in the end might even do them a favor ...

Serving destinations like LON/FRA/FCO/ARN with B777 is viable IMHO. They just need to configure their aircraft Y-heavy. And they might be able to fill a few C-seats.
There are not only business travellers flying in "C/J" but also tourists willing to fork out some extra €€€ for more comfort.
Also, PAL might be able to get some connex traffic between Europe and Australia (if transferring at MNL becomes "more comfortable" eventually ...)

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: HUYfan
Posted 2013-01-20 02:40:41 and read 9300 times.

Don't forget AirPhil Express is getting A330s. Dammam has been mooted as top of their list for MiddleEast ops. I think AirPhil Exp could also better fit the likes of Doha and Muscat.

Kind regards

Mike

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: TC957
Posted 2013-01-20 03:38:12 and read 8984 times.

Personally, I think PR will have a tough time anywhere now in Europe since the big 3 in the Middle East are so established in MNL with great connections thru their hubs. Though I'd love to see them make a good go of London.
I wonder if PR might make TG an offer for their A345's to do the ULR runs to NYC & ORD.

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: flyhigh@tom
Posted 2013-01-20 03:56:34 and read 8869 times.

Quoting airlinebuilder (Reply 4):
The basis for the CAT 2 was during the integration of the ATO (Air Transportation Office) to the CAAP (Civil Avialtion Authority of the Philippines) supposedly the personnel from the former will be placed on the organizational table of the new CAAP unfortunately the implementations were meddled with a whole lot of politics thus resulting to the new CAAP with positions not filled but in theory all the technical people are present sans the title required which led to the conclusion that safety is compromised due to lack of people as per CAAP table or organization to the letter. (where in fact, there are, all just a matter of filling up the titles) there is your walk through on what went wrong.

Ergo technically the Philippines is qualified to be CAT 1 even way back previous audits.

Seriously....you think technically Philippines is qualified to be CAT 1?????? Have you ever tried to get any work done in the CAAP ?....something like as simple as renewing your license? No wonder CAAP failed its last audit as well. Well if the management at CAAP has the same view as yours then CAT 2 will never be lifted. just a matter of filling up titles you say eh?    I see the same faces in the organization be it ATO or CAAP and the same crap that you have to get thru to get any work done. Political interference still seems unavoidable unfortunately. How many DGs have changed in the past 4 years?

Coming back to the topic...its good to know PAL is finally expanding their wings despite the CAAP mess. hopefully the new stakeholders can revive its glory days.

However they better not be late in their party to the Middle east. Cebu Pacific has announced Oct as their launch of DXB service in a    configured 330. AM pretty sure PAL or air phil express can give better value for money flts.

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: airlinebuilder
Posted 2013-01-20 04:46:19 and read 8618 times.

with all these on the table for PAL, really cant wait as to what the remaining 35 orders for the airline will be not to forget Boeing messing up bigtime and their B748i which PAL was eyeing then is not living up to its brochure specs.... i guess an all sweep by airbus will be a no brainer once again......just a segway topic but significant though

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: 777way
Posted 2013-01-20 07:34:21 and read 7775 times.



Quoting Akiestar (Reply 16):
RUH, DOH and KWI, all of which will be served with the new A330-300 HGW.

So PR will be the first east Asian airline to serve Qatar.

[Edited 2013-01-20 07:39:47]

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: theobcman
Posted 2013-01-20 12:20:42 and read 6623 times.

Who is flying between MNL-KWI ? Workers ?

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2013-01-20 12:50:30 and read 6467 times.

Quoting TC957 (Reply 19):
Personally, I think PR will have a tough time anywhere now in Europe since the big 3 in the Middle East are so established in MNL with great connections thru their hubs.

I agree... Filipinos are not that numerous in Europe (at least porcentually) and they are much more widespread all over the place (if you compare it to the Gulf, Singapore or HKG where they are basically in "city-states" that have already direct flights). I mean, what is the advantage of a flight from FCO for a Filipino living in the Milan area? Filipinos in the Emirates just hop to AUH or DXB and that's all... in Northern Italy or Manchester you just take that Emirates or Qatar and connect in the Middle East.

Quoting theobcman (Reply 23):

Absolutely... there are millions of Filipinos working in the Gulf nations. Also any contract in the Gulf (as menial as the job might be) would have an annual return flight to the point of origin of the worker including in the contract... so that generates an amazing amount of low-yielding traffic from the Gulf to the Philippines.

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: ordjoe
Posted 2013-01-20 13:02:41 and read 6561 times.

Quoting airlinebuilder (Reply 13):

Did they ever serve ord. Anway i see this as a big loss if they do more US non stop. This is not the times when ULH is very economically viable, let alone to notoriously low yielding destination which the Philippines is in spades. I suppose the mideast would fill the plane but how is the yield. I am guessing if they expand they would need some good corporate contract or cargo to do it profitably.

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: jcwr56
Posted 2013-01-20 13:32:40 and read 6424 times.

Quoting ordjoe (Reply 25):
Quoting airlinebuilder (Reply 13):
Did they ever serve ord. Anway i see this as a big loss if they do more US non stop

Yes, they served ORD starting in 1985

Here's an old Tribune link...

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1...84_1_sri-lanka-hyatt-hotels-manila

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: awthompson
Posted 2013-01-20 13:57:09 and read 6532 times.

Quoting 777way (Reply 22):
Who is flying between MNL-KWI ? Workers ?

Here are the approx numbers of Filipino workers in middle eastern countries:

Saudi Arabia 1,159,000
UAE 609,700
Qatar 263,980
Kuwait 155,740
Bahrain 50,695
Oman 41,000
Israel 39,000
Jordan 32,900
Lebanon 31,350

All go home at least once per year, or more often for those who can afford it.
For Kuwait, that is 426 per day on average.
For UAE, the figure equates to 2 full flights each day.

The big issue is not whether the Filipinos will jump ship from middle eastern carriers to PAL, they will do that without doubt if PAL is cheaper, the issue will be competition between PAL and Cebu Pacific who are also starting DXB, haven't AirPhil Express also been mentioned for Dammam?

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: Devilfish
Posted 2013-01-20 16:20:52 and read 5971 times.

Quoting MHG (Reply 17):
They´re certainly working hard to get the EU ban lifted and if those routes to IST and DME do work PR won´t trade them in for EU-destinations after the ban is lifted eventually.

For me it seems PR is deliberately forced to think out of the box which in the end might even do them a favor ...

Serving destinations like LON/FRA/FCO/ARN with B777 is viable IMHO. They just need to configure their aircraft Y-heavy. And they might be able to fill a few C-seats.

They had done it before...(except IST and DME maybe).....

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=mnl-ord...r&PM=b%3Adisc7%2B%25U&MS=wls&DU=nm

.....it would not be too far-fetched that they could do it all again   .

   Innovative ideas are indeed the order of the day!   .

Quoting HUYfan (Reply 18):
Don't forget AirPhil Express is getting A330s. Dammam has been mooted as top of their list for MiddleEast ops. I think AirPhil Exp could also better fit the likes of Doha and Muscat.

Their HGW A333s will be the group's warhorses for the LCC battles in the Middle East.


Quoting TC957 (Reply 19):
Personally, I think PR will have a tough time anywhere now in Europe since the big 3 in the Middle East are so established in MNL with great connections thru their hubs.

Precisely why PR has wisely co-opted EK with a code-sharing agreement.

Quoting TC957 (Reply 19):
I wonder if PR might make TG an offer for their A345's to do the ULR runs to NYC & ORD.

That could be a reckless move when they still have 77Ws due without a definite place to fly to.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 24):
I mean, what is the advantage of a flight from FCO for a Filipino living in the Milan area? Filipinos in the Emirates just hop to AUH or DXB and that's all... in Northern Italy or Manchester you just take that Emirates or Qatar and connect in the Middle East.

Clearly, you have not experienced lugging boxes between airport terminals    .

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 24):
Absolutely... there are millions of Filipinos working in the Gulf nations. Also any contract in the Gulf (as menial as the job might be) would have an annual return flight to the point of origin of the worker including in the contract... so that generates an amazing amount of low-yielding traffic from the Gulf to the Philippines.

Makes you wonder if "that amazing amount of low-yielding traffic" doesn't add up to something in the end?       .

Quoting ordjoe (Reply 25):
This is not the times when ULH is very economically viable, let alone to notoriously low yielding destination which the Philippines is in spades.

Yes, it's very puzzling why foreign carriers are so protective of their connections onto these God-forsaken shores   BTW...how is YYZ doing?

Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 26):
Yes, they served ORD starting in 1985

With this.....

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Tim Rees
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Rolf Wallner


.....although the short stint might not have afforded some photos of it there, in the database   .

Quoting awthompson (Reply 27):
The big issue is not whether the Filipinos will jump ship from middle eastern carriers to PAL, they will do that without doubt if PAL is cheaper, the issue will be competition between PAL and Cebu Pacific who are also starting DXB, haven't AirPhil Express also been mentioned for Dammam?

There would be enough to go around...as you've made plainly evident in your post  .

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: Akiestar
Posted 2013-01-20 16:39:47 and read 5895 times.

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 28):
Their HGW A333s will be the group's warhorses for the LCC battles in the Middle East.

I thought the new HGW A330s will go to PR, while the existing fleet of PR A330s will go to 2P?

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: Devilfish
Posted 2013-01-20 21:28:55 and read 5440 times.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 29):
I thought the new HGW A330s will go to PR, while the existing fleet of PR A330s will go to 2P?

You're forgetting the 10 additional HGWs they ordered. They may let go of the old A330s after all is said and done. Airbus probably offered them a good deal on a new fleet with the early models in exchange.  

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: BestWestern
Posted 2013-01-20 22:02:25 and read 5377 times.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 16):
For Europe, it needs to get its foot in the door before the Middle East airlines beat it to the punch, and with Filipinos becoming more affluent, I hope they'll do well on these routes.

Since KL dropped the non-stop there is probably viable room for a lower cost operation.

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: Akiestar
Posted 2013-01-20 22:02:27 and read 5406 times.

This apparently just came out on ABS-CBNnews.com. Seems that PR is bent on starting Brazil, as well as MXP (instead of FCO), CDG, CPT, JNB, TLV and, in the long term, some coveted slots to HND, as well as other airports in Japan.

This seems very ambitious indeed.

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/business/...1/20/13/pal-eyes-flights-bric-bloc

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: behramjee
Posted 2013-01-20 22:37:30 and read 5338 times.

In 2012, the passenger flown market size between Manila and Europe/Middle East was as follows:

DXB 584,503
RUH 303,351
DMM 247,221
LHR 233,528
JED 148,012
DOH 137,779
KWI 135,993
JFK 104,885
AUH 97,568
BAH 81,024
CDG 67,361
FCO 67,165
MCT 53,100
MXP 40,738
BEY 23,382
IST 21,610
AMM 20,443

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: airlinebuilder
Posted 2013-01-21 05:13:35 and read 5000 times.

Chief Pilot of Airphilexpress leaves for Tolouse to inspect the new A330 and A321 for soon to be PALEXPRESS, anyone who has got an access at Tolouse the airphilexpress soon to be palexpress will be sporting a new livery... so keep us posted as to the new look anyone....

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: Devilfish
Posted 2013-01-21 09:40:51 and read 4754 times.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 32):
This seems very ambitious indeed.

This passage from your linked report could put a damper on PR's ambitions.....

Quote:
"Then there is the matter of the so-called onerous royalty requirement imposed by the Russian government for Moscow to grant PAL overflight rights to Siberia and central Russia.

PAL needs to fly non-stop to several Western European cities but it has to pay a hefty price for such rights over the huge Russian airspace."


A quick look at the GCM linked in #28 will show how such a treatment can harm PR's Eurozone plans...forcing them to take longer, more southerly routings. Not saying the latter would guarantee cheaper passage, mind.

But I love how the reporter wrote "PAL plans daily flights to Milan with its long-haul Airbus A320s"...classic  !


Quoting airlinebuilder (Reply 34):
the airphilexpress soon to be palexpress will be sporting a new livery... so keep us posted as to the new look anyone....

   Thankfully! Am never much of a fan of their current vestment.....

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Marcel Hohl
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Dn280


Seems like a mix of Comlux, Thai and Zest!  

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: burnsie28
Posted 2013-01-21 10:06:19 and read 4730 times.

Quoting airlinebuilder (Reply 13):
In fact Delta is basically booked on their Manila Narita onwards to Chicago and New York

NRT-JFK is also one of the lowest yielding routes too.

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-01-21 10:41:09 and read 4683 times.

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 36):
NRT-JFK is also one of the lowest yielding routes too.

The only reason why that flight is operated by a 744 is because that plane usually goes on to TLV. That flight is much better served by a 772ER

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2013-01-21 11:07:28 and read 4641 times.

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 28):
Clearly, you have not experienced lugging boxes between airport terminals

Filipinos in Europe are less numerous and are way more widespread (certainly there are not +2 million Filipinos in Europe like in ME, otherwise just check the numbers in Reply 46). In that case, serving one airport in Italy or Germany does not really help. If you live in Florence or Stuttgart and you have to go all the way to MXP or FRA... then try to lug those balikbayan boxes in a car (expensive fuel, tolls, traffic jams, bad weather... and many of those Filipinos will not even have a car in Europe), or take a bus or train, or take another flight (and pay additional surcharge for those boxes)... it just does not work.

This is the perfect environment where airlines like TK or the Gulf ones blossom. You can get your flight from your local airport (Bologna, Stuttgart, Lyon...) connect somewhere in the Middle East and all the way to Phillipines.

In the Middle East it is way easier. Even if you live in a further Emirate like Fujairah (and most people live in DXB or AUH close to those airports), getting someone to give you a ride to DXB (or even renting a taxi/driver) is way easier and cheaper. Those Gulf states (the expection Saudi Arabia and to a lesser extent Oman and UAE), Hong Kong and Singapore (which are some of the places with the highest number of Filipinos) are basically city-states where you serve the whole country with one single commercial airport.

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 28):
Makes you wonder if "that amazing amount of low-yielding traffic" doesn't add up to something in the end?.

Amazing amount of traffic from the Middle East, not from Europe.

[Edited 2013-01-21 11:15:15]

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: behramjee
Posted 2013-01-21 12:22:13 and read 4521 times.

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 30):
You're forgetting the 10 additional HGWs they ordered. They may let go of the old A330s after all is said and done. Airbus probably offered them a good deal on a new fleet with the early models in exchange.

yes that could be the reason

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 16):
Uh, PR is planning all of those. They're planning a big return to the Middle East, starting service to, based on what I've heard, DXB (to the point that they opposed EK adding its third DXB-MNL frequency, a complaint that they since dropped), RUH, DOH and KWI, all of which will be served with the new A330-300 HGW.

The 77Ws are designed for Europe and North America, and it will stay that way. No reconfiguration is planned for the fleet, as they will be one of the replacements for the 744s when they exit the fleet in 2017.

Honestly, I don't see why people think PR's digging its own grave when it tries to do something different. In my A.net stalking days, I can recall people saying that "Oh, PR won't make LAS work" or "Oh, PR won't make the 77W work". Well, aside from LAS (which PR said was doing poorly, but we don't know how), it seems that the airline's doing something right. For Europe, it needs to get its foot in the door before the Middle East airlines beat it to the punch, and with Filipinos becoming more affluent, I hope they'll do well on these routes.

I think you need to understand why EK and EY are successful in MNL and why "surprisingly" neither one of them have ever used A333s to operate this route and instead use B77Ws. Because its a volumetric route and the A333 due to its smaller on board capacity will not make money operating it. Routes such as DAC and MNL for EK do very well because of the low operating cost per unit generated by deploying a 434 seater B77W on these routes.

EY uses a 412 seater B77W to MNL which has 28J seats only. PAL's current A333s have 42J + 260Y which is very premium heavy and definitely not suited for MNL-GCC routes let alone any of PAL's other routes too. If a more premium airline such as QR and EY do not have 42J seats on their A333s and B77Ws operating to MNL (QR has 24J on B77W to MNL) then there is no business case justifying PAL to have 42J in its J class on board B77Ws and A333s scheduled for GCC flights.

If the A333IGW is destined for the GCC, then it must have a more denser configuration such as 18J (maximum) along with 320Y at least to make the route cover its operating/variable costs at least.

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: CityAirline
Posted 2013-01-22 07:13:00 and read 4074 times.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 33):
In 2012, the passenger flown market size between Manila and Europe/Middle East was as follows:

Are these numbers one way? And are they O/D? So for example in Dubai, people flying MNL-DXB and MNL-XXX-DXB are both included in the figure, while those flying MNL-DXB-XXX are not?

Quoting behramjee (Reply 39):

Very well said.   

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: behramjee
Posted 2013-01-22 07:40:39 and read 4003 times.

Quoting CityAirline (Reply 40):
Are these numbers one way? And are they O/D? So for example in Dubai, people flying MNL-DXB and MNL-XXX-DXB are both included in the figure, while those flying MNL-DXB-XXX are not?

these numbers are round trip and yes include all airlines offering nonstop and one stop service

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: Akiestar
Posted 2013-01-22 07:56:51 and read 3981 times.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 39):
I think you need to understand why EK and EY are successful in MNL and why "surprisingly" neither one of them have ever used A333s to operate this route and instead use B77Ws.

You may think differently, but to me this sounds slightly patronizing. I know why EK and EY send 77Ws here, to the extent that MNL is being eyed as one of the first destinations of the bi-class EK A380 when it comes online, so you don't need to explain to me something I already know: that sheer volume alone can demand for flights to the Middle East from MNL and vice-versa.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 39):
If the A333IGW is destined for the GCC, then it must have a more denser configuration such as 18J (maximum) along with 320Y at least to make the route cover its operating/variable costs at least.

So far, I don't know how PR will be configuring its new A330s, but given flight utilization patterns, I think we need to strike a balance between having too few J seats and too many. The A330s are also used on high-yielding Japanese and HNL routes, as well as Australia (which is currently served by the 77W), so having too few Mabuhay Class seats on those routes might not be a good idea.

But, then again, I'll believe it when I see the seating charts.

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: boun
Posted 2013-01-22 09:08:04 and read 3894 times.

What kind of aircraft will they be using to IST and DME? 330s or 77Ws?

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: Akiestar
Posted 2013-01-22 19:27:21 and read 3675 times.

Quoting boun (Reply 43):
What kind of aircraft will they be using to IST and DME? 330s or 77Ws?

They're going to use the new A330s coming online this year.

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: airlinebuilder
Posted 2013-01-22 20:28:21 and read 3611 times.

Yes Akiestar, at the CAB application for IST they applied the T7 and the A330, as for the Moscow flights, they registered all PAL widebody from B744, T7, A343 and the A333.

As of press time, Feb 01 will be the first release of tne new PALEXPRESS livery on an A320 so lets all keep a look out for that....Tolouse A.netters attention please.

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: FreshSide3
Posted 2013-01-26 17:47:46 and read 3037 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 24):
I agree... Filipinos are not that numerous in Europe (at least porcentually)
Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 38):
Filipinos in Europe are less numerous and are way more widespread (certainly there are not +2 million Filipinos in Europe like in ME, otherwise just check the numbers in Reply 46). In that case, serving one airport in Italy or Germany does not really help. If you live in Florence or Stuttgart and you have to go all the way to MXP or FRA... then try to lug those balikbayan boxes in a car (expensive fuel, tolls, traffic jams, bad weather... and many of those Filipinos will not even have a car in Europe), or take a bus or train, or take another flight (and pay additional surcharge for those boxes)... it just does not work.

Greece has about 75,000 Filipinos, mostly in and around Athens. The absence of both Thai and Singapore, which had good connections, has made it more difficult to get between the countries. Now, more are going on Emirates and Qatar. Australia, which has a large Greek population(and hasn't had direct air service in years) are also depending on EK/QR connections. So, a bit of a logjam here, when you throw in people from other Asian countries going to Greece, into the mix.

We are certainly awaiting the proposed PAL trip to Istanbul, as it will help things considerably, by offering another reasonable connection option....

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: wedgetail737
Posted 2013-01-26 18:22:43 and read 3005 times.

The last time this subject matter was discussed, PAL also expressed interest in serving both SAN and SEA with 77W equipment.

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: jpen4314
Posted 2013-01-27 04:14:01 and read 2650 times.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 16):

Honestly, I don't see why people think PR's digging its own grave when it tries to do something different. In my A.net stalking days, I can recall people saying that "Oh, PR won't make LAS work" or "Oh, PR won't make the 77W work". Well, aside from LAS (which PR said was doing poorly, but we don't know how), it seems that the airline's doing something right. For Europe, it needs to get its foot in the door before the Middle East airlines beat it to the punch, and with Filipinos becoming more affluent, I hope they'll do well on these routes.

Hi everyone,

This is my inaugural post here on the forum!
Such is the depth of my interest in PAL's growth that I was driven to finally take up membership.

I'm with Akiestar on this, and just want to add a bit more background that might help put to rest some of the pessimism that surrounds PAL's growth plans. Hopefully it's more interesting than unnecessarily tangential.

I am by no means an expert in load factors and yields, but I do know my Southeast Asian economics.

I think it's important to consider PAL's growth plans in the context of the gradually rising economic profile of the Philippines, and also of Asia in general. Whether this translates into better loads in business class or higher yields is another question - 'new' middle class Chinese, for example, are said to be flying budget on Scoot, Jetstar and the like, and alternatively spending big at destination - but there is finally a growing and more 'aspirational', transnational Filipino middle class, whether based at 'home' or abroad.

Related to the gradually improving economic profile of the Philippines is the enthusiasm of Filipinos for their flag carrier. My hypotheses here are narrowly based on personal observations of Filipino communities, membership of which I enjoy. However, dare I say that past problems, or perceptions of, unreliable schedules and high-strung elitist PAL crew, are finally on the wane. So too, hopefully, is the colonial mentality of west-is-best that translates into a preference for anything foreign before 'local'. It's not the be-all-end-all, but it's at least helpful background to understanding carrier preferences when price and convenience are generally equal.

On my 'regular' commute between SYD and MNL, PAL commands a premium for flying direct to Manila ex-SYD and -MEL. This is no different from it's North American flights where PAL commands a premium for flying 'direct'/ same-plane flights to MNL. It's easy to associate MNL and Filipino travellers with junk yields and bargain basement fares, but at least ex-Australia, such budget travellers are not necessarily flying PAL and alternatively flying Jetstar via DRW or Scoot via SIN.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 7):
Filipinos (at least the ones in Europe) will pay for the convenience of flying non-stop to MNL rather than stop once or twice somewhere in the world.

Yes - I think the critical thing here is the tendency to over-generalise and cast the entirety of PAL's target market as bargain basement fare hunters just because they're overwhelmingly Filipino. A large proportion will always be highly budget-conscious contract workers, but there has always been a decent and still-growing middle class as Filipinos' incomes on a whole gradually and steadily continue to rise. Yes, there is the archetypal Filipino who will fly two or three stops to save a few dollars (see airpearl's trip report on the Continental flight across Micronesia), but if we're going to talk cultural idiosyncracies, Filipinos need to fly as direct as possible so as to not let all the perishable food they bring go to waste.

At the very least, they'll hopefully be wheeling suitcases rather than lugging boxes on the subway.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 5):
I mean even Qantas is leaving Europe (other than the massive London-XXX-Australia) because of the Middle Eastern carriers... and connections from Europe to Philippines through DXB/DOH/AUH are basically endless and convenient.

Yes, it's fair to say that PAL shouldn't count on attracting Kangaroo-route passengers. But ex-Australia passengers to Europe and v.v weren't ever going to be their bread and butter on whatever European flights they mounted. Europe may be in the economic doldrums, but the deployment of migrant workers continues apace and the incomes of Filipinos have counter-cyclically remained stable, if not improved, as they are more likely to work in industries with stable demand and less competition for jobs (nursing, seafaring and logistics, trades, service industries). This doesn't even begin to cover the jobs being transferred to the Philippines.

A long, first post, yes, but I've long wanted to dispel any latent underlying assumptions that drive people to instantly associate MNL with junk yields and therefore dismiss the potential of any expansion routes from MNL. Again, I always stand corrected, but the Philippines itself is currently undergoing or on the verge of a counter-intuitive, economic renaissance of sorts, and this is also important back story to PAL's expansion plans.

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: Ben175
Posted 2013-01-27 04:24:26 and read 2635 times.

Apparently PAL executives have been in PER with flights via DRW on the cards as soon as late February.

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: airlinebuilder
Posted 2013-01-27 18:28:06 and read 2374 times.

interestingly very in-depth jpen4314.................given your insight on the demographic of what will significantly contribute to PAL's expansion, may I hear from you what your take is on the remaining 35 planes that PAL need to order?

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: Akiestar
Posted 2013-01-28 01:30:59 and read 2209 times.

Quoting Ben175 (Reply 49):
Apparently PAL executives have been in PER with flights via DRW on the cards as soon as late February.

Some are saying it's PER, while others are saying its BNE. I'm actually not sure who to believe right now. 

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: b737100
Posted 2013-01-28 03:18:38 and read 2138 times.

[quote=PHX787,reply=10]I understand what you're saying but the LAS route is served via Vancouver....can the 77W have the range for non stop to NYC or ORD?

On January 15th, I flew the last flight on PR107 that operated LAS/YVR, which if I not mistaken, was also the last PR A340 airbus service to north america, service now offered YVR/MNL on the B777. BTW, what a great flight! The LAS gate agent said perhaps in the future LAS would be served from MNL with a non-stop flight.

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: airlinebuilder
Posted 2013-01-28 09:12:32 and read 1986 times.

I agree, PAL will certainly fly back to LAS VEGAS in no time once the CAT 1 is granted and the new WB aircrafts to join the fleet then we will see grace the desert sun once again..... hopefully they really order B748i

Topic: RE: PAL:More Destinations......
Username: prflyer
Posted 2013-01-28 09:40:36 and read 1939 times.

Starting April 1, 2013, the seasonal PR112/113, utilizing the A343, will be a daytime flight. Schedule will be:

Sun/Mon/Wed/Fri
PR113
LAX-MNL 1100-1905 +1

PR112
MNL-LAX 0930-0800


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