Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5674571/

Topic: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-28 10:39:23 and read 5878 times.

I posted this in the Frontier thread, but it''s an interesting move, so here goes - DEN-CVG 6 x weekly A320:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/fronti...stop-between-denver-181600342.html

"Frontier Announces Nonstop Service Between Denver and Cincinnati Beginning May 16"

Consolidating southern Ohio at one airport.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-28 10:54:06]

Topic: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: PlaneAdmirer
Posted 2013-01-28 10:54:51 and read 5814 times.

I hope this sticks. DL usually takes this very personally.

Topic: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: EricR
Posted 2013-01-28 11:04:30 and read 5741 times.

Why not. One of the routes will eventually work.

Topic: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: azstar
Posted 2013-01-28 11:04:40 and read 5752 times.

I suspect DL still considers CVG it's own turf and will squash F9 like they recently did in MCI & MSP.

Topic: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-28 11:07:05 and read 5737 times.

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 1):
DL usually takes this very personally.

As on the Frontier thread that was my immediate concern. But - so far - Delta has not responded to TTN-ATL or TTN-DTW.

So given all the good things Republic has done for Delta recently, I wonder if there is a new relationship?

Fingers crossed, anyway.

mariner

Topic: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: PlaneAdmirer
Posted 2013-01-28 11:17:45 and read 5665 times.

I just looked at the times. Leaving Denver at 6:59 pm and landing at CVG at 11:35 pm and then leaving CVG at 6:15 am and landing in Denver 7:15 am. For an entry into a hub, this looks pretty gentle. I wonder who is handling ground services.

Topic: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: luv2fly
Posted 2013-01-28 11:22:57 and read 5624 times.

Could this be to position an aircraft for the Apple Vacation Flying, and or to swap aircraft that are flying the Apple Vacation Flying.

Topic: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: ocracoke
Posted 2013-01-28 11:23:12 and read 5625 times.

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 5):
For an entry into a hub, this looks pretty gentle. I wonder who is handling ground services.

Currently, DL does. If Frontier still plans on flying the CVG-CUN/PUJ route, then I imagine that DL will continue, as that plane will have to clear customs in CVG, and the only access to Customs are at the DL gates.

I don't think it will be cost effective for DL to handle the international flights, and another contract (Eagle?) to handle the daily domestic flight.

Topic: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: enilria
Posted 2013-01-28 11:26:55 and read 5586 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 4):
So given all the good things Republic has done for Delta recently, I wonder if there is a new relationship?

Highly doubtful

Quoting EricR (Reply 2):
Why not. One of the routes will eventually work.

Keep switching airports, pissing off customers, spending money on station setup, and starting from scratch.

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 6):

Could this be to position an aircraft for the Apple Vacation Flying

Probably. Not sure why their scheduling requires these things. You don't see Allegiant ferrying aircraft to fly their infrequent routes.

Topic: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-28 11:31:28 and read 5559 times.

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 6):
Could this be to position an aircraft for the Apple Vacation Flying, and or to swap aircraft that are flying the Apple Vacation Flying.

It may help with that, but both CVG-CUN (Saturday) and PUJ (Sunday) are only 1 x weekly,

Quoting enilria (Reply 8):
Highly doubtful

Something has changed.

mariner

Topic: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-28 11:32:09 and read 5556 times.

Another good choice for F9. And we know who flies to SDF and not CVG.

I landed in CVG twice; once on a TWA BCN-JFK-CVG-BNA flight and once on a DL flight MCO-CVG-SEA flight which actually aborted its takeoff 1/2 to 3/4 of the way down the runway. That ride and sudden stop was enough thrill for a lifetime. It would have certainly cost $10 in a carnival.

Is CVG the first of the proposed new eight cities or does do the recent TTN announcements count toward the eight?

Topic: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-28 11:34:43 and read 5542 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 10):
Is CVG the first of the proposed new eight cities or does do the recent TTN announcements count toward the eight?

I don't think it will be "eight cities," Gent.

There are eight cities (nine if you count MSO) bidding for service this summer, but I doubt they'll all get a guernsey.

mariner

Topic: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2013-01-28 11:45:45 and read 5499 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 10):
And we know who flies to SDF and not CVG.

Don't forget you-know-who's considerable operations in IND, DAY, and CMH.  
Quoting enilria (Reply 8):
You don't see Allegiant ferrying aircraft to fly their infrequent routes.

You can't compare G4 scheduling to F9's. G4's business model bases crews at the vacation destination and makes them go to the small city and back in the same day. It works for a pure vacation airline like G4, but can't be adapted to an airline like F9.

Anyway, I'm glad to see CVG getting their first LCC in years. Hopefully, this is the first of many and locals will embrace F9 if DL uses "NW heartland strategy" tactics.

[Edited 2013-01-28 11:46:42]

Topic: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-01-28 11:54:47 and read 5450 times.

Quoting azstar (Reply 3):
I suspect DL still considers CVG it's own turf and will squash F9 like they recently did in MCI & MSP.

Hmmm..really??? Cuz DL hasnt been able to keep F9 out of DTW, MSP, SLC or ATL. MSP-MCI is a horrible example because neither was a F9 hub. Yes, I know sure MCI was a F9 hub, sure it was.

Topic: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-28 12:04:48 and read 5413 times.

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 5):
Leaving Denver at 6:59 pm and landing at CVG at 11:35 pm and then leaving CVG at 6:15 am and landing in Denver 7:15 am.


Because DEN-CVG is a 6x weekly service If F9 were to initiate TTN-CVG and adjust the 6:15 A.M. departure out of CVG it would potentially give TTN a second connection to DEN a little more south of MDW. Keeping in mind a direct TTN-DEN may happen at some point.

Topic: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: SANFan
Posted 2013-01-28 12:11:04 and read 5379 times.

This is probably "free" a/c time -- using a plane 6x a week that would otherwise spend the night in DEN -- so it isn't really a high-cost move by F9. Whether the times and freq will work, of course, is the question...

As mentioned by several, it will be very interesting to see what DL's reaction is.

bb

Topic: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-28 12:22:50 and read 5336 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 10):
And we know who flies to SDF and not CVG.
Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 12):
Don't forget you-know-who's considerable operations in IND, DAY, and CMH.

I was thinking 5X...Just kidding.

Topic: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-28 12:23:13 and read 5337 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 13):
Hmmm..really??? Cuz DL hasnt been able to keep F9 out of DTW, MSP, SLC or ATL. MSP-MCI is a horrible example because neither was a F9 hub. Yes, I know sure MCI was a F9 hub, sure it was.

That was precisely the problem - Delta did not regard MCI as a Frontier hub.

The rule of thumb (Delta/Frontier) has been that Delta doesn't react (or not much) if Frontier starts a route from its hub - DEN.

It is the non-hub routes (LAX-MSP, MEM-MCO/LAS and MCI-MSP) that Delta goes nuclear about - if Delta already flies it. .

The open question is TTN, which clearly isn't yet a hub. But - Delta doesn't fly TTN-ATL or TTN-DTW.

So far, Delta has not responded. This is in itself unusual, because normally the reratliation happens within about a week. It may yet respond, of course - who knows?

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-28 12:24:59]

Topic: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: enilria
Posted 2013-01-28 12:39:43 and read 5280 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 17):
The rule of thumb (Delta/Frontier) has been that Delta doesn't react (or not much) if Frontier starts a route from its hub - DEN.

They (NW) retaliated against DEN-DTW by adding DEN-IND/MKE. DEN-MEM was also retaliated against with JFK-LAX/JFK/IND. So, F9 has never been free to add DL/NW hubs from DEN without reaction...or at least there is no evidence to support that comment.

Quoting mariner (Reply 9):
Quoting enilria (Reply 8):
Highly doubtful

Something has changed.
Quoting mariner (Reply 17):
So far, Delta has not responded. This is in itself unusual, because normally the reratliation happens within about a week. It may yet respond, of course - who knows?

I think DL is not quite sure how to deal with TTN. CVG is hard to say. If it were MEM I'd be more certain DL would let it go, but CVG is not really shrinking right now. DL just retaliated for RDU-LAX on AA by adding BNA-LAX. DL is not going soft. I think it has reached a point where DL will do something. Not sure what...

Topic: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-28 12:41:36 and read 5268 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 18):
They (NW) retaliated against DEN-DTW by adding DEN-IND/MKE. DEN-MEM was also retaliated against with JFK-LAX/JFK/IND. So, F9 has never been free to add DL/NW hubs from DEN without reaction...or at least there is no evidence to support that comment.

MSP. SLC. ATL.

mariner

Topic: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: seatback
Posted 2013-01-28 12:42:43 and read 5251 times.

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 5):
I just looked at the times. Leaving Denver at 6:59 pm and landing at CVG at 11:35 pm and then leaving CVG at 6:15 am and landing in Denver 7:15 am. For an entry into a hub, this looks pretty gentle. I wonder who is handling ground services.

I just posted this as a new thread before I saw this one. This is exciting news for Cincinnati. I'm sure we'll have team reporting by our TV stations here tonight.

With the addition of F9, we now have three daily flights to DEN  

This is a short layover for the crew...I'm sure they're not going to like this one.

Topic: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2013-01-28 12:43:54 and read 5248 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 4):
As on the Frontier thread that was my immediate concern. But - so far - Delta has not responded to TTN-ATL or TTN-DTW.

Its kind of tough for delta to respond when they dont serve the airport!

Topic: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-28 12:46:19 and read 5223 times.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 21):
Its kind of tough for delta to respond when they dont serve the airport!

Delta could easily start TTN - its done it before. It didn't last, but it was flown.

Delta Starting TTN -BOS/-ATL In Dec! (by Lrgt Sep 5 2006 in Civil Aviation)

mariner

Topic: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: PlaneAdmirer
Posted 2013-01-28 13:07:39 and read 5134 times.

Quoting seatback (Reply 20):
This is a short layover for the crew...I'm sure they're not going to like this one.

Wouldn't this be a long layover? They won't fly out after just under 7 hours on the ground will they? I am kind of assuming that every flight crew will spend the night and next day unless there is some rotation that can be done for the Apple flight.

Topic: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-28 13:36:17 and read 5043 times.

This is interesting - comparative fares. DAY saw an increase in pax while CVG saw a decline:

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnat...raffic-declines-at-cincinnati.html

The average air fare at Cincinnati airport was $535, compared with $378 at the Dayton airport and $377 at the Columbus airport, according to second quarter figures from the U.S. Department of Transportation."

A little low-fare stimulation in the works at CVG?

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-28 13:37:17]

Topic: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-28 13:45:57 and read 5312 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 17):
So far, Delta has not responded. This is in itself unusual, because normally the reratliation happens within about a week.

Because F9 remains a subsidiary of RJET would in my mind be a retaliation against Bryan Bedford. Does DL really want to pick that fight. If F9 were a stand-alone maybe. I can't help think Bryan Bedford, Siegel and DL have already hashed this out It's one flight daily at an oddball time of day.

According to the ITA software DL appears to have one single daily non-stop flight between CVG-DEN on a Canadair RJ 900. If there were an issue I could see it being the equipment. A RJ-900 vs a A320 potentially with IFE. Everything else DL uses this time of year looks like it connects through SLC. UA/CO also flies the ERJ-145 and the RJ-900 between CVG-DEN.

Topic: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-28 13:48:56 and read 5301 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 25):
Because F9 remains a subsidiary of RJET would in my mind be a retaliation against Bryan Bedford. Does DL really want to pick that fight.

Frontier was a subsidiary of Republic when it announced MCI-MSP - and Delta went nuclear.

Whether they still want that fight is the unknown.

mariner

Topic: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: seatback
Posted 2013-01-28 14:27:06 and read 5306 times.

I fly this route weekly. As a person traveling on business and as a slave to my Delta miles, I won't switch to F9. I'm easily upgraded on the CRJ900 which I find very comfortable.

However, with only 76 seats each day, I don't think DL is overly committed to this route (or any other route out of CVG for that matter.)

I'm sure this route will be a success with the occasional business traveler and leisure. Although Families won't be thrilled at the flight times.

Topic: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-01-28 16:44:45 and read 5051 times.

YESSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!! As you can imagine, any new service into my hometown airport is great news!   

Looks like F9 was the result of a s***load of lobbying from business leaders, according to my dad. He personally had some say into getting them into coming here, and I'm surprised it worked.

Quoting azstar (Reply 3):
I suspect DL still considers CVG it's own turf and will squash F9 like they recently did in MCI & MSP.

Nope, won't happen. AC came into CVG a few years back and everyone said DL will squash them like a bug.
DL is probably a little bit relieved to be honest to see F9 come in due to all of the backlash DL is getting from Cincinnati.

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: airlinewatcher1
Posted 2013-01-28 18:39:10 and read 4787 times.

Great news!!! I've been waiting for this for a while!

DL recently downgraded their CVG-DEN route from mainline to a CRJ, so to me that shows it's not a high priority for them.

I hope it works.

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: B4REAL
Posted 2013-01-28 18:47:03 and read 4738 times.

Quoting seatback (Reply 27):
I fly this route weekly. As a person traveling on business and as a slave to my Delta miles, I won't switch to F9. I'm easily upgraded on the CRJ900 which I find very comfortable

Additionally, I think the masses will do what you do.

I think CVG fliers are notoriously picky, I'm really not sure they've ever been happy. With the schedule this flight brings; I really don't see CVG locals embracing. West and DEN people sure. CVG peeps -> Not s'much in my opinion.

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: flyguy89
Posted 2013-01-28 19:28:10 and read 4607 times.

Finally! Hard to say with any certainty how the route will do, but Cincinnati has been a low-fare starved market for quite some time, so I hope it does well.

Quoting B4REAL (Reply 30):
Quoting seatback (Reply 27):
I fly this route weekly. As a person traveling on business and as a slave to my Delta miles, I won't switch to F9. I'm easily upgraded on the CRJ900 which I find very comfortable

Additionally, I think the masses will do what you do.

The masses currently either don't fly or they drive to DAY/SDF/CMH/IND to catch flights, so I don't think they'll really care about having to get up early if it means they don't have to drive 1-2 hours...for low-fare chasers, the flight times are fine. What had always been the problem previously was that DL would retaliate and match the competition's fares, and then everyone would choose DL over the competition, we'll have to see if history repeats itself or if CVG flyers finally start making smart consumer decisions.

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-01-28 19:41:08 and read 4564 times.

Quoting B4REAL (Reply 30):
I think CVG fliers are notoriously picky

What am I then?   
I'll probably fly F9 on my next flight back to my hometown just to see something different for once.

Any word on what a/c is going to be operated on this route?

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-28 19:53:54 and read 4523 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 32):
Any word on what a/c is going to be operated on this route?

Yes. A320.

"“We are excited to bring our low fares to residents in the Cincinnati area,” said Daniel Shurz, Frontier’s senior vice president, commercial. “Travelers in the area will enjoy our low fares to Denver and other destinations in the west aboard our comfortable A320 aircraft, featuring DIRECTV® service in every seatback and six rows of STRETCH seating.”

 

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-01-28 20:15:01 and read 4399 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 33):
Yes. A320.

"“We are excited to bring our low fares to residents in the Cincinnati area,” said Daniel Shurz, Frontier’s senior vice president, commercial. “Travelers in the area will enjoy our low fares to Denver and other destinations in the west aboard our comfortable A320 aircraft, featuring DIRECTV® service in every seatback and six rows of STRETCH seating.”

Well I'm sold. F9 from AZA-DEN-CVG   

:D

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: B4REAL
Posted 2013-01-28 20:15:52 and read 4400 times.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 31):
The masses currently either don't fly or they drive to DAY/SDF/CMH/IND to catch flights, so I don't think they'll really care about having to get up early if it means they don't have to drive 1-2 hours...for low-fare chasers, the flight times are fine. What had always been the problem previously was that DL would retaliate and match the competition's fares, and then everyone would choose DL over the competition, we'll have to see if history repeats itself or if CVG flyers finally start making smart consumer decisions.

We do need to see fare positioning response...

If only CVG-DEN is priced the same, DL wins.

If many markets Westbound are much less expensive, F9 wins.

But, it's possible this route will stick for no other reason than capacity options. We'll see. I'm not optimistic.

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: F9fan
Posted 2013-01-28 20:19:58 and read 4367 times.

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 5):
I just looked at the times. Leaving Denver at 6:59 pm and landing at CVG at 11:35 pm and then leaving CVG at 6:15 am and landing in Denver 7:15 am. For an entry into a hub, this looks pretty gentle. I wonder who is handling ground services.
Quoting luv2fly (Reply 6):
Could this be to position an aircraft for the Apple Vacation Flying, and or to swap aircraft that are flying the Apple Vacation Flying.

This is very similar to what F9 used to do at CAK, send a flight in really late and just have it RON.

As for retaliation from DL, I'm surprised they haven't done anything yet. When F9 tried MSP-LAX, NW announced a DEN-LAX competing flight within minutes. I'm also surprised WN hasn't announced CLE-DEN non-stop yet, although they seem to be pleased with their CAK-DEN flights. I flew that route at Christmas on WN, and the plane was packed solid, even for a 5:45 am departure (which I will never do again if I can help it).

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: cosyr
Posted 2013-01-28 20:20:10 and read 4347 times.

How long until F9 tries another mini hub? This one might be justified, if DL doesn't kill them.

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: Kcrwflyer
Posted 2013-01-28 20:20:23 and read 4366 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 4):
As on the Frontier thread that was my immediate concern. But - so far - Delta has not responded to TTN-ATL or TTN-DTW.

Remember, Delta only defends things they want.

Quoting enilria (Reply 8):
Quoting EricR (Reply 2):
Why not. One of the routes will eventually work.

Keep switching airports, pissing off customers, spending money on station setup, and starting from scratch.

Can we at least agree that this passes the eye test? I can't imagine the pieces aren't in place for this to work.

Quoting enilria (Reply 8):
Quoting luv2fly (Reply 6):

Could this be to position an aircraft for the Apple Vacation Flying

Probably. Not sure why their scheduling requires these things. You don't see Allegiant ferrying aircraft to fly their infrequent routes.

Allegiant doesn't have long term charter contracts into cities they may or may not fly to at all. I would assume when F9 cuts a deal with Apple to fly for them, any repositioning of aircraft is included in the bid. If they can then find a way to get the plane there in a more efficient manner, more power to em'.

Quoting seatback (Reply 27):
I'm sure this route will be a success with the occasional business traveler and leisure. Although Families won't be thrilled at the flight times.

Families take morning flights all the time, especially if it's the only affordable flight to a destination. I'm sure they'd like to get back a little earlier, but you don't always have that luxury.

Quoting B4REAL (Reply 30):
I think CVG fliers are notoriously picky, I'm really not sure they've ever been happy. With the schedule this flight brings; I really don't see CVG locals embracing. West and DEN people sure. CVG peeps -> Not s'much in my opinion.

Why does someone in Denver want to land in CVG late at night? Conversely, the schedule allows for a day-trip to DEN, which a CVG business traveler might find appealing.

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: SurfandSnow
Posted 2013-01-28 20:26:54 and read 4325 times.

Wow, CVG has finally gotten real LCC service! This should substantially bring down fares to key Western destinations like DEN, LAS, LAX, PHX, SAN, SEA, SFO, SLC, and SNA. I wonder if we could see F9 try MCO in the future, as I would imagine fares to Florida will remain pretty high for now, or even link CVG to their burgeoning TTN station? At the very least, we finally see F9's southern Ohio ops consolidated at a single station, just as the airline's northern Ohio ops have recently been consolidated at CLE.

Great move by F9, as it seems WN still has no interest in serving CVG - even though it is now by far the largest domestic (mainland) market missing from their network. Might as well go head on against pithy legacy RJ services to the larger CVG market rather than duke it out with WN (and UA) to the smaller DAY market. Though, something tells me this move could magically prompt DL to restore mainline service, perhaps even boost frequency, on the CVG-DEN route  . Then again, if F9 would rather compete against UA on its hub-hub DEN-CLE route than stay on the DEN-CAK route against a single daily WN flight, that kind of DL response may not even be a problem...

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: BDL757
Posted 2013-01-28 22:31:08 and read 3861 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 4):
So given all the good things Republic has done for Delta recently, I wonder if there is a new relationship?
Quoting mariner (Reply 9):
Something has changed.

What are all the good things Republic has done for DL? What do you think has changed?

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-28 23:08:50 and read 3786 times.

Quoting BDL757 (Reply 40):
What are all the good things Republic has done for DL?

(i) Giving Delta the use of the Republic/Frontier LGA slots at MKE.

(ii) Seriously downsizing MKE, clearing the way for Delta. (iii) Seriously downsizing MCI, clearing the way for Delta.

Quoting BDL757 (Reply 40):
What do you think has changed?

The relationship between Frontier and Delta has always been - antagonistic. The relationship between Republic and Delta has always been much more benign. Delta gave its shares in Midwest to Republic as a freebie.

Somewhere along the line that attitude to Frontier may have changed. Delta's agreement to take all the Frontier/MKE FF miles was obviously self-interested (and ticked off Southwest), but it sure helped Frontier get a mass of miles off its books and Delta would know that.

Delta has not - yet - reacted to TTN-DTW and TTN-ATL and may still do so. But Delta's retaliations against Frontier have previously happened in about a nanosecond. I'm open to the argument that TTN is different - Delta doesn't fly it - but I'm wary.

I don't know if it has changed enough for Delta to smile benignly on Frontier's DEN-CVG, but given (i), (ii) and (iii) above, it may have.

Then again, Frontier has been discussing this with the CVG people for over a year and I'm be fairly sure the subject - Delta - has come up. I would have asked for some assurances about this but Frontier isn't even getting a revenue guarantee, so I'm guessing there's a quid pro quo somewhere.

But nothing would surprise me - either way.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: enilria
Posted 2013-01-29 06:25:10 and read 3073 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 19):
MSP. SLC. ATL.

Those were all pre-2001. How do you even remember what happened then when you forgot about the response on DTW and MEM much more recently?

Quoting mariner (Reply 22):
Delta could easily start TTN - its done it before. It didn't last, but it was flown.

Less easily because F9 is taking up a lot of the facility's capacity, but anything is possible.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 34):
Well I'm sold. F9 from AZA-DEN-CVG

AZA is being dropped. Try PHX instead.

Quoting mariner (Reply 41):
Quoting BDL757 (Reply 40):
What are all the good things Republic has done for DL?

(i) Giving Delta the use of the Republic/Frontier LGA slots at MKE.

They have a short memory. I think there will be a response. It could be a fare response that we don't even see.

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-01-29 06:33:23 and read 3035 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 42):
I think there will be a response. It could be a fare response that we don't even see.

But if it's a fare response we don't see, who cares? DL will match. We know that, but it has nothing to do with anything specific to F9 or the route.

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: PHLBOS
Posted 2013-01-29 08:01:21 and read 2711 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 17):
It is the non-hub routes (LAX-MSP, MEM-MCO/LAS and MCI-MSP) that Delta goes nuclear about - if Delta already flies it. .

The open question is TTN, which clearly isn't yet a hub. But - Delta doesn't fly TTN-ATL or TTN-DTW.
Quoting mariner (Reply 22):
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 21):
Its kind of tough for delta to respond when they dont serve the airport!

Delta could easily start TTN - its done it before. It didn't last, but it was flown.

If memory serves, DL (via a Connection carrier, OH IIRC) entered TTN with routes (I believe they also flew TTN-ATL as well) that nobody was flying at the time. The reasons why the service didn't last were obvious; it was poorly advertised/marketed and it wasn't competitively priced compared to similar routes flying out of PHL at the time.

That said, if DL was still operating at TTN and F9 came in and offered competiting service; I could see them retaliate. Since they currently aren't; I'm sure Mercer County, the agency that run TTNs, would question DL's possible motive of coming in and offering the same route out of TTN. If Mercer County suspected such, they could conceivably tell DL to go pound sand.

As far as CVG's concerned; while DL's hub shirinkage has slowed, most people who regularly fly out of there probably know by now that DL's days of operating a hub at CVG are clearly numbered. Additional service from other carriers, especially LFCs, would certainly be most welcome.

Quoting mariner (Reply 26):
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 25):
Because F9 remains a subsidiary of RJET would in my mind be a retaliation against Bryan Bedford. Does DL really want to pick that fight.

Frontier was a subsidiary of Republic when it announced MCI-MSP - and Delta went nuclear.

At present, DL is keeping MSP as a hub; that might be the difference between their past reaction at MSP vs. a possible reaction at CVG.

Quoting seatback (Reply 27):
As a person traveling on business and as a slave to my Delta miles

What are you going to do should DL indeed decide to close its CVG hub for good? Remember an airline hub for a city airport is not an automatic birthright.

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: LHCVG
Posted 2013-01-29 08:36:45 and read 2574 times.

I'm interested to see whether UA or DL considers this a bigger threat. We've all been talking about this as F9 poaching DL at CVG, but I think UA's reaction (if any) may also be telling. In other words, does F9 running CVG-DEN take more from DL's 76 seats once a day to DEN and their West Coast flights, or the 2-3x 100-150pax a day that UA runs since they can offer onward connections like F9?

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: flyguy89
Posted 2013-01-29 09:19:42 and read 2425 times.

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 45):
I'm interested to see whether UA or DL considers this a bigger threat. We've all been talking about this as F9 poaching DL at CVG, but I think UA's reaction (if any) may also be telling. In other words, does F9 running CVG-DEN take more from DL's 76 seats once a day to DEN and their West Coast flights, or the 2-3x 100-150pax a day that UA runs since they can offer onward connections like F9?



Well UA only operates 1 daily flight on a CRJ-700, so DL and UA pretty much have identical capacity on the route and fares are still high (north of $400), so much for "competition" eh? I never understood by UA never tried harder on the route, for some reason they still operate 1-2 daily mainline flights to ORD, but never saw fit to add in a mainline turn to DEN in the mix. IMO UA and DL had a gentleman's agreement of sorts for CVG-DEN, neither airline has really attempted to gain market share or increase traffic on the route.

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: delta2ual
Posted 2013-01-29 09:23:28 and read 2400 times.

I wish DL and F9 would work together! F9 could open a mini hub in CVG; they could grow in the east; people in CVG would still have a "hub" of sorts; DL could exit finally and focus on their other hubs; FF's could earn and burn on both airlines and share clubs; everybody wins! Couldn't that work?

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: LHCVG
Posted 2013-01-29 09:29:36 and read 2371 times.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 46):
Well UA only operates 1 daily flight on a CRJ-700, so DL and UA pretty much have identical capacity on the route and fares are still high (north of $400), so much for "competition" eh? I never understood by UA never tried harder on the route, for some reason they still operate 1-2 daily mainline flights to ORD, but never saw fit to add in a mainline turn to DEN in the mix. IMO UA and DL had a gentleman's agreement of sorts for CVG-DEN, neither airline has really attempted to gain market share or increase traffic on the route.

I've seen it fluctuate up to 3x a day in the past, and sometimes they throw in an ERJ as one of the segments, though I can't recall the specific dates I saw that. Even so it does seem like DL and UA have reached a truce of sorts over the years - DL even ran mainline until the last year or two ago, but all the same UA never really pushed back nor took big offense to that. And as you point out, fares seem pretty sticky on that and no one seems too concerned about massively undercutting the other. So I'm interested to see how this plays out for all three parties.

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-29 09:39:29 and read 2333 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 42):
Those were all pre-2001. How do you even remember what happened then when you forgot about the response on DTW and MEM much more recently?


Because I don't mention something does not mean that it is forgotten. I thought you would understand that by now.

ATL, MSP and SLC were Delta pure, DTW and MEM were Northwest, as was LAX.-MSP.

MCI-MSP was the combined NW/Delta and the first test of how the combined airline would react.

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 45):
I'm interested to see whether UA or DL considers this a bigger threat.

United hasn't often retaliated when Frontier comes into a route it serves. Sometimes, yes, such as DEN-PSP they added some frequency, and COS-LAS (there are others).

I don't recall a United reaction to DEN-MSN or DEN-GRR or MOT, or BIS or FAR - there are quite a few. It's possible to make a case that Frontier's presence on a route stimulates the market to United;s benefit - or at least sometimes.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: ScottB
Posted 2013-01-29 10:19:43 and read 2160 times.

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 5):
I just looked at the times. Leaving Denver at 6:59 pm and landing at CVG at 11:35 pm and then leaving CVG at 6:15 am and landing in Denver 7:15 am.

The overnight is far too short to be a legal layover for crew rest. Is it a "stand-up" layover with the crew on duty all night? I can't imagine that F9 will lay the crews over for two nights in Cincytucky.

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 39):
we finally see F9's southern Ohio ops consolidated at a single station

But they reopen CMH just for TTN? Odd.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 44):
I'm sure Mercer County, the agency that run TTNs, would question DL's possible motive of coming in and offering the same route out of TTN. If Mercer County suspected such, they could conceivably tell DL to go pound sand.

They don't really have the right to do that unless the facilities at TTN are just plain full. Facilities and incentives generally must be made available on equal/equitable terms to all operators notwithstanding existing leases. Mercer County could certainly enter into a preferential-use lease with F9 but it's not clear the latter is interested in that encumbrance and it still wouldn't prevent the entry of another operator into the airport.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 32):
I'll probably fly F9 on my next flight back to my hometown just to see something different for once.

The bigger question is whether you'd (along with other travelers) use them regularly or if you'd go back to DL for convenience/miles/non-stops/etc.

Quoting seatback (Reply 27):
As a person traveling on business and as a slave to my Delta miles, I won't switch to F9. I'm easily upgraded on the CRJ900 which I find very comfortable.

And that's a reason why this route will be challenged to succeed.

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: B727FA
Posted 2013-01-29 10:42:16 and read 2061 times.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 44):
As far as CVG's concerned; while DL's hub shirinkage has slowed, most people who regularly fly out of there probably know by now that DL's days of operating a hub at CVG are clearly numbered.

Why does this thinking persist? The "hub/focus city" what ever you want to call it, CVG is profitable now and DL doesn't throw money/profit away.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 44):
Remember an airline hub for a city airport is not an automatic birthright.

Don't tell CVG folks that; they want it both ways. And all the while there was a hub, there was angst and fussing. Now that it's "gone" they're mad at DL.

MEM is in a similar position. Interesting article about that not too long ago (can't remember when, but in MEM papers) They can have low fare service to a few places from a smattering of carriers or a "hub" with higher fares to support the operation.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 46):
Well UA only operates 1 daily flight on a CRJ-700, so DL and UA pretty much have identical capacity on the route and fares are still high (north of $400), so much for "competition" eh?

And there's the rub: hub-to-hub n/s flights are going to be priced similarly...CVG folks don't seem to get that. Of course the connection is going to be cheaper via an outlying city, you're adding more people to the potential passenger pool and more carriers to the competition pool.

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: seatback
Posted 2013-01-29 10:43:22 and read 2048 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 50):
And that's a reason why this route will be challenged to succeed.

Agreed. But as a note, my company pays my travel, not me personally. If I had to be mindful of a travel budget, or paying for it myself, I'd be forced to look at F9.

With one flight a day and the terrible times not withstanding, I can justify not booking F9.

That's why I don't really want WN in Cincinnati. That would mean I'd probably have to fly WN when possible because they would probably have a decent frequency.

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-29 11:00:53 and read 2002 times.

Quoting seatback (Reply 52):
Agreed. But as a note, my company pays my travel, not me personally. If I had to be mindful of a travel budget, or paying for it myself, I'd be forced to look at F9.

With one flight a day and the terrible times not withstanding, I can justify not booking F9.

But it isn't designed for folk like you. It isn't attempting to be Delta or United.

The laser focus by the new CEO on leisure pax as the primary market is a major reason for the turnaround in Frontier's financial fortunes.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: LHCVG
Posted 2013-01-29 11:36:15 and read 1945 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 50):
But they reopen CMH just for TTN? Odd.

I could be wrong, but I thought I saw something last week about them having a contract with a casino or some such.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 50):
The bigger question is whether you'd (along with other travelers) use them regularly or if you'd go back to DL for convenience/miles/non-stops/etc.

Yup. Same problem as VX's elite status match to UA flyers - a novelty that a decent number might try, but dubious in terms of it's long-term traction in the market. If it works good for them, but it will be interesting to see if there are enough leisure pax connecting onward that the other airlines can't capture.

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-29 11:40:34 and read 1935 times.

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 54):
I could be wrong, but I thought I saw something last week about them having a contract with a casino or some such.

That's a Republic contract for 10 x E190's - it doesn't involve Frontier.

The E190's are still in Frontier livery, though, which is causing some confusion:

Why Is Frontier Airlines E-190 At Burbank? (by foppishbum Jan 28 2013 in Civil Aviation)

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: LHCVG
Posted 2013-01-29 11:48:57 and read 1911 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 55):

I stand corrected.

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: cornutt
Posted 2013-01-29 11:51:04 and read 1913 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 28):
DL is probably a little bit relieved to be honest to see F9 come in due to all of the backlash DL is getting from Cincinnati.

I haven't been following the situation closely, but that's what I've heard... routes between HSV and the Northeast U.S./Canada where I used to be able to get flights via CVG, I now have to use ATL or DTW. Do you think the good people of Cincinnati will patronize F9's new route?

And... whatever became of Concourse C? Are they going to let it sit there and rot as long as DL pays for it?

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: PHLBOS
Posted 2013-01-29 12:39:09 and read 1845 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 50):
They don't really have the right to do that unless the facilities at TTN are just plain full. Facilities and incentives generally must be made available on equal/equitable terms to all operators notwithstanding existing leases.

Facilities & gate leases made available, yes.

OTOH, an airline starting identical service at an airport that they're not currently serving with the primary & sole intent to drive out another carrier can be considered a form of predatory practice. Especially if the predatory carrier in question leaves said-airport shortly-thereafter. A hypothetical DL jumping into TTN than completely vacating after F9 leaving (again, hypothetically) would fall under that legally-questionable category/scenario.

If Mercer County's smart (or any other airport agency for that matter); they would draft leases & incentives to discourage such practices.

That said, given the fact that TTN is not a hub for DL and their previous failures (on their own) there; I don't see them coming back just to flush out F9.

Quoting B727FA (Reply 51):
Why does this thinking persist? The "hub/focus city" what ever you want to call it, CVG is profitable now and DL doesn't throw money/profit away.

Will it be profitable as a hub long term would be the bigger question? Keep in mind that courtesy of the NW merger, DL now has a much larger hub at DTW; which is in close proximity to CVG.

If there's enough O&D demand for DL to keep a large presence at CVG, then it will do so; but if their CVG traffic is largely connecting passengers (kind of like what US had over at PIT), then CVG as a hub is expendable.

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-01-29 12:44:58 and read 1822 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 42):
AZA is being dropped. Try PHX instead.

Seasonal winter.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 50):
The bigger question is whether you'd (along with other travelers) use them regularly or if you'd go back to DL for convenience/miles/non-stops/etc.

Well if its a good product ill do it F9, but if its out of the country or to the east coast (all while implying that I'm originating in CVG instead of NRT or PHX) I'm still gonna use DL

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: enilria
Posted 2013-01-29 12:58:58 and read 1800 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 43):
Quoting enilria (Reply 42):
I think there will be a response. It could be a fare response that we don't even see.

But if it's a fare response we don't see, who cares? DL will match. We know that, but it has nothing to do with anything specific to F9 or the route.

Huh? I don't think you understand the concept of a fare response. Delta could, for example, lower prices to dirt in DEN to a bunch of cities where DL has only connecting service but F9 is non-stop. Then F9 can ignore it and DL will take some of their passengers or match and lose tons of revenue while barely affecting DL at all. That's a very very very common tactic. I don't know if that is going on between them, but that type of thing happens every few days between one carrier or another. That's why there are 50,000 pricing changes per day in this industry.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 50):
Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 39):
we finally see F9's southern Ohio ops consolidated at a single station

But they reopen CMH just for TTN? Odd.

Let's be honest here, they have completely switched Ohio airports from CAK/DAY to CLE/CMH/CVG. How stupid is that? Pretty stupid, particularly when switching in Houston and Tampa both were a disaster.

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: dbo861
Posted 2013-01-29 13:04:45 and read 1794 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 50):
The bigger question is whether you'd (along with other travelers) use them regularly or if you'd go back to DL for convenience/miles/non-stops/etc.

Non-stops? The number of non-stops DL still offers from CVG dwindles each day. Also, F9 only has 6 weekly flights to fill, and offers many more connecting opportunities at DEN than DL flies non-stop from CVG, so many passengers would have to connect anyways. Not to mention the passengers from the other airlines at CVG F9 could siphon away. I bet this will be successful and might possibly become daily, if not better timed. Also, if they're successful, I bet it's a matter of time before Spirit catches on and comes to CVG.

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: FWA2500
Posted 2013-01-29 13:16:32 and read 1769 times.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 58):
And... whatever became of Concourse C? Are they going to let it sit there and rot as long as DL pays for it?

The contract is up on C in 2015, but until then it has to be maintained in "flight ready" condition, or so we were told. It iss a big waste of money for sure, its never going to see use again.


As for F9 coming in, I say the more the merrier. I think it will be nice having other options out of CVG.

[Edited 2013-01-29 13:17:50]

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-29 14:08:15 and read 1689 times.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 58):
That said, given the fact that TTN is not a hub for DL and their previous failures (on their own) there; I don't see them coming back just to flush out F9.

There is a school of thought that says Delta sees Frontier at TTN as at least a limiting factor to Spirit's ACY-ATL/ACY-DTW

I don't know if I agree with it - unlike some, I don't claim to know what Delta thinks - but it's out there.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-29 14:25:41 and read 1658 times.

I would think if there were any sort of retaliation it would be equipment matching by DL or UA to match the seats on the route to as close to possible with each other. The A320 has what 145 or so seats?

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2013-01-29 14:32:57 and read 1659 times.

Honestly if there was anywhere that needs a LCC its CVG. That market desperately needs a last minute option at affordable prices. If frontier cant make CVG work then DEN as a connection hub seems flawed as CVG has very high fares to all those western markets you can connect to. I wish them luck! CVG really needs something to lower fares.

Topic: RE: Frontier Launching DEN-CVG
Username: PHLBOS
Posted 2013-01-29 14:33:34 and read 1648 times.

Quoting FWA2500 (Reply 62):
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 58):
And... whatever became of Concourse C? Are they going to let it sit there and rot as long as DL pays for it?


The contract is up on C in 2015, but until then it has to be maintained in "flight ready" condition, or so we were told. It iss a big waste of money for sure, its never going to see use again.

FYI, you're quoting cornutt; not me.


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/