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Topic: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: panamair
Posted 2013-01-23 15:33:28 and read 21642 times.

According to this (link below), Delta appears to be talking to Airbus and Boeing about some 24-30 A320s or 737s; these will be for the existing 'older' models, not the NEO or the MAX....

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...ng-on-jet-purchase.html?cmpid=yhoo

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-01-23 15:38:50 and read 21612 times.

737. I would never see them buying more airbuses.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-01-23 15:45:02 and read 21547 times.

I wonder if they could be ordering more 737-700s?

[Edited 2013-01-23 16:38:22]

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-01-23 15:49:09 and read 21483 times.

DL ordered 100 737-900ERs in August 2011, so that might give the 737 a bit of an advantage.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: dlramp4life
Posted 2013-01-23 15:53:00 and read 21416 times.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 2):
I wonder if they could be ordering more 737-700s?

Isn't that why they got the 717s?

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: phxa340
Posted 2013-01-23 15:56:20 and read 21357 times.

Boeing needs to sell more NGs than Airbus needs to sell OEOs so I see this going to Boeing as well as there are more motivated to keep their production line full before the Eis of the MAX. They better hurry though before FR takes up all the slots.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: SPREE34
Posted 2013-01-23 15:56:38 and read 21355 times.

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 4):

Isn't that why they got the 717s?

Different missions. The initial 700 order was for South American hot and high fields. Maybe they want to expand on that, or some long and thin routes.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: sparky35805
Posted 2013-01-23 16:14:33 and read 21175 times.

These will probably be A320s or 737-800s to replace the older MD88s and A320s,which weredelivered starting in the late 1980s.The best deal will probably win the order.
Sparky

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: KC135TopBoom
Posted 2013-01-23 16:19:40 and read 21137 times.

So are these to be used aircraft, or new build B-737NGs or A-32XOEOs? If they are for used airplanes, there are plenty of A-32Xs and B-737NGs currently on the market.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2013-01-23 16:25:46 and read 21083 times.

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 6):
Different missions. The initial 700 order was for South American hot and high fields. Maybe they want to expand on that, or some long and thin routes.

The large number of A319s should help with short field requirements. Although they won't be spec'd for superstar runway performance like the 73Gs that Delta ordered, the A319 should help.

I'd expect 900ERs with a slight chance of more 73Gs if they are looking at expanding their operations at airports with sort fields.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2013-01-23 16:29:28 and read 21020 times.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 9):
Although they won't be spec'd for superstar runway performance like the 73Gs that Delta ordered, the A319 should help.

What did DL spec for superstar runway performance on the -700s? I assume they got the Short Field Performance option.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: MSPNWA
Posted 2013-01-23 16:34:55 and read 20937 times.

I would guess an order of 738s is coming. I just can't see DL ordering A320s.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: NW
Posted 2013-01-23 16:44:02 and read 20822 times.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 8):
So are these to be used aircraft, or new build B-737NGs or A-32XOEOs? If they are for used airplanes, there are plenty of A-32Xs and B-737NGs currently on the market.

From what Richard Anderson said, these would be for used, 8-10 years old A320 and 737.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-01-23 16:44:28 and read 20822 times.

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 6):

It's funny how the 737-700s have made their way through the DL system, not just to S American hot/high fields nor just short runways.

Some 737-700 routes:

Understandable:

ATL-PTY/TGU/BOG/SXM/SJD/MEX
JFK-BOG/MEX(seasonal 2nd flight)

Some surprising, but welcome:

ATL-SNA/CHS(2x daily)/GSO/TUL/DAY/JFK
JFK-TPA/ATL


The rotation of these beautiful birds through the domestic system tells me two things:

A. They have a decent amount of slack in the -700 fleet
B. They have found that the birds are also working well on domestic routes


I really hope this is a -700 order. They are some of the most comfortable planes I've been on and they are the best looking planes in the sky.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: srbmod
Posted 2013-01-23 16:48:56 and read 20782 times.

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 4):
Isn't that why they got the 717s?

No. The 717s are to replace the remaining DC-9s as well as to push some 50 seat regional jets out of the picture.

Considering that DL was originally rumored to be looking at a 200 a/c order at the time they made the 737-900ER order, this is not surprising at all.

I'm leaning towards it being for additional 737s, a mix of 737-700s and 737-800s but the order would also include 20-30 options for either NG or MAX a/c that would probably be used for 739ERs once DL gets enough of them in the fleet to get a feel for how they fit into the fleet.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: cokepopper
Posted 2013-01-23 17:06:02 and read 20634 times.

Reading the transcript from the earnings call
I was under the impression that Delta is looking towards the purchase of Used A/C
from the Q&A:
Richard Anderson
"if you look at our wide-body fleet the average age of the wide-body fleet is 13 to 14 years. And on our domestic fleet, we began this year with a significant number of new deliveries. So, we are always working to calibrate the right mix of new deliveries and used deliveries. Given the glut of narrow-bodies coming on the market right now, we think that there is going to be significant opportunities because residual values on eight to ten year old narrow-body airplanes are on a significant downward slide. And we will continue to be with the glut of airplanes there."

[Edited 2013-01-23 17:28:16]

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: hhslax2
Posted 2013-01-23 17:18:26 and read 20502 times.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 13):
Some surprising, but welcome:

ATL-SNA

Not surprising at all given the operating conditions at SNA.

[Edited 2013-01-23 17:19:09]

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2013-01-23 17:22:43 and read 20456 times.

First of all it sounds like they want used aircraft.

Quoting sparky35805 (Reply 7):
737-800s

IF they did order it would be for more 900's

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 9):
The large number of A319s should help with short field requirements.

IMHO DL does not like the 319s. their operating costs do not stack up well against the MDs and 737s on most mission requirements

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 13):
ATL-PTY

This used to be a 757.....big downgrade actually. this route can easily be done with the 738/9 if the demand was there.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 13):
A. They have a decent amount of slack in the -700 fleet
B. They have found that the birds are also working well on domestic routes

A & B.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: mplsjefe
Posted 2013-01-23 17:23:34 and read 20461 times.

Quoting cokepopper (Reply 15):
if you look at our wide-body fleet the average age of the wide-body fleet is 13 to 14 years. And on our domestic fleet, we began this year with a significant number of new deliveries. So, we are always working to calibrate the right mix of new deliveries and used deliveries. Given the glut of narrow-bodies coming on the market right now, we think that there is going to be significant opportunities because residual values on eight to ten year old narrow-body airplanes are on a significant downward slide. And we will continue to be with the glut of airplanes there.

I think all bets are off on this one. DL has a lot more a319/320s than 737s right now, and if they are looking to get used aircraft why not Airbuses? They have the pilots to fly them, experience to run and maintain them, and this doesn't need to be associated with the 737-900er order.

I think that whatever metal DL can get for the best deal will be it; used a320/319s or 737s. DL's business model doesn't care for loyalty per se, only profitability which is why they continue to make money.

Just my 2 cents.

mplsjefe

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-01-23 17:27:52 and read 20421 times.

The used aircraft market is generally a wash - a 2004 era A320-200 averages $26.5 million and a 2004 era 737-800 averages $29 million. For a block as large as DL wants, if they can find a carrier willing to part with that many, they could secure an even better deal.

FR is now said to be getting serious about placing a top-up 737-800 order. Perhaps they're talking to DL about some of their existing frames?

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2013-01-23 17:31:52 and read 20372 times.

Quoting hhslax2 (Reply 16):
Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 13):
Some surprising, but welcome:

ATL-SNA

Not surprising at all given the operating conditions at SNA.

I thought DL went back to all 757s SNA-ATL?

But yeah, the 73G is an excellent airplane for SNA operations.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: B757forever
Posted 2013-01-23 17:57:59 and read 20183 times.

Quoting panamair (Thread starter):
Delta appears to be talking to Airbus and Boeing about some 24-30 A320s or 737s;

Doesn't DL already have 30 options on the -900ER?

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-01-23 18:00:27 and read 20148 times.

Quoting hhslax2 (Reply 16):

I know, as there are also 757s, the route doesn't really "require" the 73G like some other routes do.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 20):

I believe it is 3x 757 at the moment, but like JFK-ATL, it is interchanged a decent amount.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: sxf24
Posted 2013-01-23 18:08:13 and read 20109 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 19):
FR is now said to be getting serious about placing a top-up 737-800 order. Perhaps they're talking to DL about some of their existing frames?

FR's configuration makes such a deal unlikely. Not only would the interiors need to be completely gutted and overhauled, FR has minimum thrust and weight, requiring DL (or FR or the lessor) to buy more from Boeing. Thrust and weight is not generally cheap.

I see DL buying new aircraft. Unless there is a significant block of used sister ships, going to the secondary market is a pain. Look at the difficulties they've had inducting MD-90s in a timely manner.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2013-01-23 18:20:55 and read 20010 times.

Yesterday during the earnings/analyst call,Anderson specifically mentioned used narrowbody aircraft.
Today this rumor/planted leak/insider info made its way into the headlines.

Either this is a seperate issue, or there is misinterpretation about Anderson's comments.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2013-01-23 19:05:01 and read 20544 times.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 9):

The large number of A319s should help with short field requirements. Although they won't be spec'd for superstar runway performance like the 73Gs that Delta ordered, the A319 should help.

I can't remember if the baby 37s have the SFP package, but they do have the 27K CFM-56-7X engine.
The A319s have The older CFM-56-5A2 engine and I think 22K. The 73W has better hot/high and short runway performance.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 13):
ATL-SNA

757-200 now.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 14):

I'm leaning towards it being for additional 737s, a mix of 737-700s and 737-800s but the order would also include 20-30 options for either NG or MAX a/c that would probably be used for 739ERs once DL gets enough of them in the fleet to get a feel for how they fit into the fleet.

Delta has 30 options on the 739 order.

Quoting cokepopper (Reply 15):
I was under the impression that Delta is looking towards the purchase of Used A/C

yeah, Anderson made it sound like it would be used Aircraft, but this makes it seem like new birds. I personally cant seem them going the used route unless they A) don't care if the have odd balls in the fleet, or B) can find 24-30 sister ships. I just can't see them having say 24 aircraft that all have some little difference....then they are all different to 737-X32 aircraft. (but I could be wrong)

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 17):

IMHO DL does not like the 319s. their operating costs do not stack up well against the MDs and 737s on most mission requirements

The smaller the plane the higher the CASM(normally) but Delta really has enough of that sized plane. 65 A319/73Ws seems like enough.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 20):
I thought DL went back to all 757s SNA-ATL?

They did. 5x 73W to 3x 752

Quoting B757forever (Reply 21):
Doesn't DL already have 30 options on the -900ER?

yes.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: MCOflyer
Posted 2013-01-23 19:15:52 and read 20271 times.

The older A320's have the 5A2 powerplant while the A319 has the 5B power plant.

KH

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-01-23 19:28:29 and read 20655 times.

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 23):
FR's configuration makes such a deal unlikely. Not only would the interiors need to be completely gutted and overhauled...

Would that not be the case whomever they bought from? Even if they were to get two-class birds second-hand from say AA or AS, I would expect DL would want their own interior in them.


We know the 737-900ER order went out at 50% off list. So a new 737-800 would run DL around $45 million. So they'd be paying around 50% more - $15 million - to buy new versus buying used.

Anyone have any idea of what a new cabin and upping the weights and thrust would cost?

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: NWAROOSTER
Posted 2013-01-23 19:35:14 and read 20640 times.

Delta has been picking up used aircraft like the MD-90s and Southwest's 717s. They also have picked up recently a couple of Pratt powered 757s. They will not acquire any Rolls Royce power 757s. If the opportunity arises, Delta will pounce on any used aircraft that they feel meets they business objective. I am sure that Delta is fully aware of what is now available as well as what will become available in the foreseeable future. Delta has some aircraft that are reaching the end of their cost effective lifespan and Delta will seek out that certain aircraft they feel will make good business sense to acquire be it Boeing or Airbus. I am sure Delta is looking to acquire more MD-90s and 717s if they can get them for the right price.   

[Edited 2013-01-23 19:42:19]

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: SPREE34
Posted 2013-01-23 19:43:26 and read 20385 times.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 13):
A. They have a decent amount of slack in the -700 fleet

Yup. And your "B" point as well. They don't make money sitting on the ramp.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: jbmitt
Posted 2013-01-23 19:58:25 and read 20157 times.

Any chance of them picking up some of the 737-832s that they sold off prior to delivery? I believe that some of them may have ended up with WestJet.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: sparky35805
Posted 2013-01-23 20:33:14 and read 19676 times.

The report in the link states the this order will be for new aircraft.
Sparky

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2013-01-23 20:37:04 and read 19673 times.

Quoting sparky35805 (Reply 31):
The report in the link states the this order will be for new aircraft.
Sparky

The article in the link says new aircraft, but it is based on information from "a person familar with the matter" not an official press release.

The discussion about used aircraft is based on what Anderson said yesterday during the earnings call.

It's very possible both are going on concurrently.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2013-01-23 20:44:39 and read 19608 times.

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 26):
The older A320's have the 5A2 powerplant while the A319 has the 5B power plant.

according to the fleet book I have the 319s have CFM56-5-A5 (and the 320s have CFM56-5-A1 or CFM56-5-A3s depending on the ship)

No idea why it would be wrong on a Delta document......but it could very well be.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: sxf24
Posted 2013-01-23 21:13:22 and read 19275 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 27):
Would that not be the case whomever they bought from? Even if they were to get two-class birds second-hand from say AA or AS, I would expect DL would want their own interior in them.


We know the 737-900ER order went out at 50% off list. So a new 737-800 would run DL around $45 million. So they'd be paying around 50% more - $15 million - to buy new versus buying used.

Anyone have any idea of what a new cabin and upping the weights and thrust would cost?

I think FR planes would have greater reconfiguration costs, since bins, labs, galleys, etc would need to be replaced. I would estimate an interior reconfiguration would cost $2 million plus about $1 million for weight and thrust. Adding the time/resources to manage such a project could make new aircraft more attractive.

Regardless, there are not enough used 737NGs n the market for this to work. Plenty of used A320s to lease, but DL prefers to buy.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2013-01-23 21:42:21 and read 18948 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 10):
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 9):
Although they won't be spec'd for superstar runway performance like the 73Gs that Delta ordered, the A319 should help.

What did DL spec for superstar runway performance on the -700s? I assume they got the Short Field Performance option.

High performance engines and brakes. There is no short field package for the 700

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: SXDFC
Posted 2013-01-23 21:49:17 and read 18914 times.

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 34):
I think FR planes would have greater reconfiguration costs, since bins, labs, galleys, etc would need to be replaced. I would estimate an interior reconfiguration would cost $2 million plus about $1 million for weight and thrust. Adding the time/resources to manage such a project could make new aircraft more attractive.

How much did it run ET? Don't they operate a few 738's ( although one sadly crashed ).. I doubt ET would have operated them with the yellow bins,etc..

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: scbriml
Posted 2013-01-23 22:29:48 and read 18672 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
737. I would never see them buying more airbuses.
Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 11):
I just can't see DL ordering A320s.

*cough* AA *cough*

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: chiad
Posted 2013-01-23 22:59:06 and read 18347 times.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 37):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
737. I would never see them buying more airbuses.
Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 11):
I just can't see DL ordering A320s.

*cough* AA *cough*

Just was I was thinking.
 

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: oldeuropean
Posted 2013-01-23 23:35:42 and read 18092 times.

Quoting chiad (Reply 38):
Quoting scbriml (Reply 37):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
737. I would never see them buying more airbuses.
Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 11):
I just can't see DL ordering A320s.

*cough* AA *cough*

Just was I was thinking.

Mee too!

I was wondering if I had a deja vu, because of such childish statements.  

[Edited 2013-01-23 23:57:55]

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: prost
Posted 2013-01-24 00:35:30 and read 17586 times.

But as someone mentioned, does Airbus have as many slots of the OEO to fill as Boeing has for the NG? I ask because that might determine pricing flexibility.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: jbcarioca
Posted 2013-01-24 04:25:04 and read 16230 times.

DL has clearly demonstrated they'll buy whatever is the cheapest way to get the performance they need. The 717's are clear evidence of that. Because, as Anderson clearly said, a surplus of newish B737NG and A320 on the market they'll buy the cheaper option, or some of both. This is not a matter of preference for one or the other. Both of them give excellent service. Both, assuming the versions can be found in used aircraft the way they need can serve short fields, hot and high or other particular needs of given destinations. Both can easily be refitted to look sufficiently Deltaesque.

Were I to hazard a weak guess I'd probably suspect A320 series only because their pricing is lower at this time, ephemeral taht may be, but DL is a master at market timing. The same may be the case for B737NG any moment. Whichever they buy, or both, they'll certainly want winglets and updated mods to wring as much efficiency as possible from these birds. The cost of the mods can be a big issues, both price and timing, so I'd guess the deciding points apart from price might well be availability of updated aircraft.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: scbriml
Posted 2013-01-24 04:30:56 and read 16145 times.

Quoting prost (Reply 40):
But as someone mentioned, does Airbus have as many slots of the OEO to fill as Boeing has for the NG?

They don't, and they had a good year for ceo sales in 2012.

Quoting prost (Reply 40):
I ask because that might determine pricing flexibility.

I don't think it would make a scrap of difference. If DL is serious in considering Airbus and Airbus wanted their business, I'm sure they could find the right price.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2013-01-24 04:35:24 and read 16142 times.

Not to get off topic but the MD88s are really tired. I have flown 4 in the past month and all them were in bad shape...especially in the bathrooms.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: GSPflyer
Posted 2013-01-24 05:17:08 and read 15626 times.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 43):
Not to get off topic but the MD88s are really tired. I have flown 4 in the past month and all them were in bad shape...especially in the bathrooms.

Maybe this order is intended to start replacing them?

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-01-24 05:31:49 and read 15473 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):

DL ordered 100 737-900ERs in August 2011, so that might give the 737 a bit of an advantage.
Quoting yellowtail (Reply 17):
IF they did order it would be for more 900's
Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 25):
Delta has 30 options on the 739 order.
Quoting GSPflyer (Reply 44):
Quoting yellowtail (Reply 43):
Not to get off topic but the MD88s are really tired. I have flown 4 in the past month and all them were in bad shape...especially in the bathrooms.

Maybe this order is intended to start replacing them?

I bet that it would be the conversion of the 739 options to firm orders. That would give them the ability to retire some more of the older aircraft in their fleet and re-position other aircraft into other roles which as mentioned in an above post, the MD 88 fleet looking a little long in the tooth, although if that were the only reason to replace aircraft half of the world's fleet should be replaced because of a long in the tooth looking interior.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: southwest737500
Posted 2013-01-24 06:05:09 and read 15103 times.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 13):

Also CLT gets a -700

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: MaddogJT8D
Posted 2013-01-24 06:39:25 and read 14849 times.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 43):
Not to get off topic but the MD88s are really tired. I have flown 4 in the past month and all them were in bad shape...especially in the bathrooms.

I've flown three DL MD-88's and one original DL MD-90 since December and I have to disagree with you, I thought both types were in great shape and didn't look too worse for the wear considering their age. I'd say the 75Ns look much more worn and tired, and have for years since DL is flying the wheels off these birds before they retire them.

You can't really judge an aircraft's condition by the shape the lavs are in either, you could be on a brand new aircraft and after a few flights (long-haul in particular), the lavs could be in awful shape...

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: clemsonaj
Posted 2013-01-24 06:42:59 and read 14734 times.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 43):

Not to get off topic but the MD88s are really tired. I have flown 4 in the past month and all them were in bad shape...especially in the bathrooms.

I flew four this week (9107, 927, 933, and 949) and didn't think they were in that bad of shape. Certainly not as bad as some of the 757s and older 320s floating around in the DL fleet.

Seems like the pilot rumor floated on this board a month or so ago might have a little bit of truth behind it after all.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: panamair
Posted 2013-01-24 07:28:23 and read 14268 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
I would never see them buying more airbuses.

Never say never...If Airbus is willing to offer a sweet deal and take a bunch of 50-seaters,......it's no big deal for Delta since they already have A320s in the fleet....

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 43):
but the MD88s are really tired. I have flown 4 in the past month and all them were in bad shape...especially in the bathrooms.

I was just on two M88s last weekend and they were in great shape - they were the refurbished ones (with 16 First Class seats) so maybe that made a difference....

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2013-01-24 07:58:56 and read 13909 times.

Quoting panamair (Reply 49):
Never say never...If Airbus is willing to offer a sweet deal and take a bunch of 50-seaters,......it's no big deal for Delta since they already have A320s in the fleet....

This has nothing to do with 50 seaters. Airbus (or Boeing) having nothing to do with offloading 50 seaters. DL already has a plan to get to their target number of 50 seat aircraft, and it involves dealing with Bombardier.

Airbus and Boeing are NOT going to be taking 50 seat RJs in exchange for future orders.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: phxa340
Posted 2013-01-24 08:09:01 and read 13801 times.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 37):
Quoting chiad (Reply 38):
Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 39):

Which has been debated to death on here - AA needed both A and B to fill their needs. DL does not - but this whole debate is kind of mute as it has been said they are looking at used aircraft.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: panamair
Posted 2013-01-24 08:09:07 and read 13756 times.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 50):
This has nothing to do with 50 seaters. Airbus (or Boeing) having nothing to do with offloading 50 seaters. DL already has a plan to get to their target number of 50 seat aircraft

Just going off of this bit in the report:

".....Delta is seeking an accord in which it would get new planes while having Boeing or Airbus take some of its 50-seat regional jets, similar to a deal with Bombardier Inc. (BBD/B) in December, the person said...."

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: neutronstar73
Posted 2013-01-24 08:32:04 and read 13528 times.

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 51):
Quoting phxa340 (Reply 51):
Quoting scbriml (Reply 37):
Quoting chiad (Reply 38):
Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 39):

Which has been debated to death on here - AA needed both A and B to fill their needs. DL does not - but this whole debate is kind of mute as it has been said they are looking at used aircraft.

You, Sir, are a Winner! You've successfully put this chain of thought to bed rather effectively. I think some have missed the plot on this Delta order and trying to compare it to AA for some reason. The situation with Delta and AA are worlds apart, from what I see:

AA required HUNDREDS of aircraft, hence the split
DL requires 30, and they are possibly looking at lightly used aircraft...so the comparison with AA is really quite foolish and ridiculous.

Not even the same situation.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: SEPilot
Posted 2013-01-24 08:56:28 and read 13191 times.

The article, from what I can tell, is nothing more than reporting on rumors. I just think Delta is exploring all options to improve its fleet, both from a fuel efficiency and a maintenance standpoint. If they find the right used aircraft at the right price I'm sure they'll snap them up, but if not they have no choice but to buy new; however I would think it likely that they'll end up doing both. As far as A vs. B goes, if they buy used it will depend entirely on what they can find and what deal they can get. If they go new I would suspect Boeing would have the edge because of the smaller backlog of NG vs. OEO and the 739ER order, but it is not an insurmountable edge. If Airbus comes through with a much better deal I suspect they'll take it, but I think it unlikely.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2013-01-24 09:05:08 and read 13106 times.

Quoting panamair (Reply 49):
I was just on two M88s last weekend and they were in great shape - they were the refurbished ones (with 16 First Class seats) so maybe that made a difference....

Clearly I am having a run of bad luck then.....especially since I was flying AA in between and kept getting their new 738s.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: tommy767
Posted 2013-01-24 09:08:47 and read 13067 times.

It's fair game. Would be cool to see some new A320s around with AVOD

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: delta2ual
Posted 2013-01-24 09:32:30 and read 12828 times.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 55):
Quoting panamair (Reply 49):
I was just on two M88s last weekend and they were in great shape - they were the refurbished ones (with 16 First Class seats) so maybe that made a difference....

Clearly I am having a run of bad luck then.....especially since I was flying AA in between and kept getting their new 738s.

I think it depends on the upgrades. My aunt flew DL last month and when I asked her how the flight was, she said she was on a "new" plane; turnes out, it was an MD-88! LOL

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-01-24 09:47:00 and read 12623 times.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 43):
Not to get off topic but the MD88s are really tired. I have flown 4 in the past month and all them were in bad shape...especially in the bathrooms.

Not disagreeing with you, you were there and I was not, but I flew on two this past week and they were in pretty good shape. They were newer ones, however (902DE and 903DE) and I believe they were refurbished, as they both had 16 F seats.

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 46):
Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 13):
Also CLT gets a -700

That's true, forgot about CLT. I also just remembered that EWR gets them 2-3 times a day.

[Edited 2013-01-24 09:47:34]

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2013-01-24 12:13:47 and read 11471 times.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 55):
Clearly I am having a run of bad luck then.....especially since I was flying AA in between and kept getting their new 738s.

I have to think you are indeed. I log about 4-6 M88 flights per month and have been flying them since they were new to the fleet. I don't think they've ever looked better.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: B727FA
Posted 2013-01-24 12:25:51 and read 11345 times.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 58):
I believe they were refurbished, as they both had 16 F seats.

They all have the 16 seats now. There is no more MD88/8R or MD90/9K because all mods have been completed and "new" MD90's will only come on the line in the "9K" (no aft galley) configuration. The 8R/9K designations have been retired.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: KingAir200
Posted 2013-01-24 12:37:26 and read 11191 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 25):
The A319s have The older CFM-56-5A2 engine and I think 22K.

319s have -5A5s with 23,500lbs of thrust. 3209-3233 and 3277-3278 are -211s with 25k -5A1s. 3234-3276 are -212s with 26.5k -5A3s


Edited to add 3277 and 3278

[Edited 2013-01-24 12:38:50]

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: scbriml
Posted 2013-01-24 12:58:05 and read 11022 times.

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 51):
Which has been debated to death on here - AA needed both A and B to fill their needs.

They didn't know that before they took Airbus's blockbuster deal to Boeing who were promptly forced into launching the MAX.

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 51):
DL does not - but this whole debate is kind of mute as it has been said they are looking at used aircraft.

Most news reports say new rather than used. But, if they are after used, then I can't see any reason why A320s shouldn't be chosen.   

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 53):
You, Sir, are a Winner! You've successfully put this chain of thought to bed rather effectively

Of course.   

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 53):
DL requires 30, and they are possibly looking at lightly used aircraft...so the comparison with AA is really quite foolish and ridiculous.

In which case, the A320 has as good a chance as the 737. Anyone that discounts the A320 is missing the point. DL isn't.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: XFSUgimpLB41X
Posted 2013-01-24 13:54:38 and read 10474 times.

From a pilot standpoint, the 737 is awful. I sure hope Airbus gets this round!

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: B757forever
Posted 2013-01-24 13:57:39 and read 10451 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 25):
Delta has 30 options on the 739 order.
Quoting brilondon (Reply 45):
I bet that it would be the conversion of the 739 options to firm orders.

I feel that Anderson is working towards firming up the 30 739ER options. He is a pretty shrewd negotiator and knows timing is key. With all the bad news at Boeing in the last week, announcing a top-up order from DL would demonstrate Boeing is still very much in the game (we a-netters all know this but the media hype says otherwise). Discussions about possible used aircraft or new Airbus aircraft are all part of Anderson's game. My guess is this will develope into an additional 30 739ER aircraft at a smoking good price.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2013-01-24 14:48:13 and read 10004 times.

Quoting B757forever (Reply 64):
feel that Anderson is working towards firming up the 30 739ER options. He is a pretty shrewd negotiator and knows timing is key.

Very interesting theory.

It is almost assured that the 100 739ERs is just the beginning as there are many more aircraft on the way. Makes sense to convert those options while you can.

The more I think about this, it becomes more likely that this is in addition to the search and/or consideration for used aircraft.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2013-01-24 15:04:14 and read 9857 times.

If the plan is indeed for DL to exercise its options with Boeing, I wonder if DL can convert those options to the 738. 130 739ERs seems like a lot of capacity, and the 738 is more appropriately sized to replace some of the MD-88s.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: B757forever
Posted 2013-01-24 15:10:29 and read 9774 times.

Quoting B757forever (Reply 64):
My guess is this will develope into an additional 30 739ER aircraft at a smoking good price.

I also think it is a foregone conclusion that there are more 717s and MD90s in the future as well.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: phxa340
Posted 2013-01-24 15:30:55 and read 9670 times.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 62):

Yes we got it the AA 320 was a huge coup for Airbus. Now back to DL - they are buying used so your right it really could be the 32X or 73X at this point.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2013-01-24 16:10:05 and read 9489 times.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 63):
From a pilot standpoint, the 737 is awful. I sure hope Airbus gets this round!

Care to elaborate?

That's certainly not what I hear from some pilots who have flow both A & B. Some pilots like to know they have ultimate control over the airplane, when necessary, and they can see what the autoflight system is doing.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: XFSUgimpLB41X
Posted 2013-01-24 16:18:57 and read 9485 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 69):
Care to elaborate?

That's certainly not what I hear from some pilots who have flow both A & B. Some pilots like to know they have ultimate control over the airplane, when necessary, and they can see what the autoflight system is doing.

The 737 is cramped, loud, sloppy on the flight controls, and is chock full of state of the art hardware.... from the 1960s.

You have ultimate control over the Airbus the same as you have ultimate control over the 787 and 777.

As far as seeing what autoflight is doing- the flight guidance notation (flight mode annunciator) is nearly identical on all modern airliners.

The 737 is the first airliner I've flown that I really have zero desire to ever fly again.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2013-01-24 16:38:07 and read 9386 times.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 70):
You have ultimate control over the Airbus the same as you have ultimate control over the 787 and 777.

Not correct. The 787 and 777 have "soft" envelope protection functions that will give tactile feedback when a limit is being exceeded (e.g. try to roll the wheel back when exceeding a certain bank angle, or greatly increasing the force on the control column when approaching stall), but will allow the pilot to override when necessary. The 777 and 787 will ultimately respond to ANY pilot control input. Airbus have so called "hard" envelope protections that can override pilot input.

Also, both the 777 and 787 have Primary Flight Computer Disconnect Switches, which would bypass the Fly-By-Wire Computers and just do an analog displacement of the control surfaces from the control inputs (thus, responding like a cable driven airplane). The other guys don't have any way for the pilot to manually select the DIRECT mode. This has never been done, and probably won't (a 777 pilot apparently considered it, but didn't do it, once during an ADIRU problem), but again gives the Captain ultimate authority over the airplane.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 70):
As far as seeing what autoflight is doing- the flight guidance notation (flight mode annunciator) is nearly identical on all modern airliners.

I was referring to the back-driven controls, which even the 777 and 787 do. The throttles, control column and wheel (and rudder pedals during an autoland) move so the pilots can clearly see what the autoflight system is doing. The other guys don't do this.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 70):
and is chock full of state of the art hardware.... from the 1960s.

Again, not accurate. The 737NG has such features as a Vertical Situation Display, Integrated Approach Nav, Nav Performance Scales, RNP capability down to .11 miles, full glass displays, etc. Those are not 1960s technology.

The 737 is so cramped, 1960s, loud and sloppy that it's sold over 10,000 air frames. AS, WN, FR, WS, etc sure as heck seem keep coming back for more.

[Edited 2013-01-24 16:43:14]

[Edited 2013-01-24 16:44:49]

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2013-01-24 16:48:01 and read 9299 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 19):
The used aircraft market is generally a wash - a 2004 era A320-200 averages $26.5 million and a 2004 era 737-800 averages $29 million. For a block as large as DL wants, if they can find a carrier willing to part with that many, they could secure an even better deal.

That and there's no law that they have to get all 737's or all A320's. They could split the order. They already operate large fleets of both types, so there's no advantage to ordering all one type.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: KingAir200
Posted 2013-01-24 17:07:46 and read 9215 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 71):
The 737 is so cramped, 1960s, loud and sloppy that it's sold over 10,000 air frames. AS, WN, FR, WS, etc sure as heck seem keep coming back for more.

Ah, but does it have a traytable or cupholder?   

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: GSPflyer
Posted 2013-01-24 19:19:36 and read 8949 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 66):
130 739ERs seems like a lot of capacity, and the 738 is more appropriately sized to replace some of the MD-88s.

I figure this order will ultimately be to replace MD-88, since the 738 is closer in capacity than the 739ER. I believe some of the DL A320s were among the first ones delivered, if so, those older aircraft will probably be replaced by this order as well.

The 739ER will likely replace 757-200's, since they have the same capacity.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2013-01-24 19:43:13 and read 8880 times.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 35):

IIRC the DL 73W were some of the first 737s with Carbon brakes.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 37):
*cough* AA *cough*

Ah yes, Generally its safe to compare an airline that orders 500+ airplanes to one that just order 100 aircraft from one company and is looking for a top off of 30ish airplanes(and amazingly, they have 30 options on the 737NG)
but yeah, clearly going to be airbus.  
Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 39):
because of such childish statements.

Yes your statement is very childish.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 42):

I don't think it would make a scrap of difference. If DL is serious in considering Airbus and Airbus wanted their business, I'm sure they could find the right price.

Just like Airbus found the right price and slots for the last bid. Oh damn....thats right they ordered Boeings.

Quoting KingAir200 (Reply 61):

319s have -5A5s with 23,500lbs of thrust. 3209-3233 and 3277-3278 are -211s with 25k -5A1s. 3234-3276 are -212s with 26.5k -5A3s

Thanks, KingAir your a NWer, why did NW go with the A model CFM56-5 for the 319s vs the B?

Quoting scbriml (Reply 62):
Most news reports say new rather than used. But, if they are after used, then I can't see any reason why A320s shouldn't be chosen.

Of course not, I don't think you could find a reason for Delta to order Boeing ever again....Bias kinda does that to you.

Quoting B757forever (Reply 64):
I feel that Anderson is working towards firming up the 30 739ER options. He is a pretty shrewd negotiator and knows timing is key. With all the bad news at Boeing in the last week, announcing a top-up order from DL would demonstrate Boeing is still very much in the game (we a-netters all know this but the media hype says otherwise). Discussions about possible used aircraft or new Airbus aircraft are all part of Anderson's game. My guess is this will develope into an additional 30 739ER aircraft at a smoking good price.

Agreed. I also wouldn't be shocked at all for a top off order for 738s, give them more flex in replacing the A320 and if it comes to it 88s.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: XFSUgimpLB41X
Posted 2013-01-24 19:52:12 and read 8859 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 71):
Not correct. The 787 and 777 have "soft" envelope protection functions that will give tactile feedback when a limit is being exceeded (e.g. try to roll the wheel back when exceeding a certain bank angle, or greatly increasing the force on the control column when approaching stall), but will allow the pilot to override when necessary. The 777 and 787 will ultimately respond to ANY pilot control input. Airbus have so called "hard" envelope protections that can override pilot input.

Close... if you want to override a hard protection (why would you want to? If you need max alpha full back on the stick gives you exactly that) you can simply reach up and turn off a couple of the flight control computers. They are right above your head.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 71):

I was referring to the back-driven controls, which even the 777 and 787 do. The throttles, control column and wheel (and rudder pedals during an autoland) move so the pilots can clearly see what the autoflight system is doing. The other guys don't do this.

I don't miss those one bit.. particularly the yoke.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 71):
Again, not accurate. The 737NG has such features as a Vertical Situation Display, Integrated Approach Nav, Nav Performance Scales, RNP capability down to .11 miles, full glass displays, etc. Those are not 1960s technology.

The 737 is so cramped, 1960s, loud and sloppy that it's sold over 10,000 air frames. AS, WN, FR, WS, etc sure as heck seem keep coming back for more.

You're talking about the PFD and NAV displays, and those are the only saving grace of the NG. All features are standard to new build airliners now anyways. While we're talking about the displays, there's no EICAS on the NG. The systems management is absolutely awful on that airplane. Something breaks... get a master caution and go on an easter egg hunt to go find it.

It's got a great wing and is efficient, but I'm talking from a pilot's standpoint and absolutely hated flying it. I've flown Canadair, 3 different Boeings, Douglas, and an Airbus. It's not an A vs B thing. It's a the 737 blows donkey balls thing.  



[Edited 2013-01-24 20:01:17]

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2013-01-24 20:07:43 and read 8861 times.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 76):
It's a the 737 blows donkey balls thing.  

Do you know if Boeing is going to fix the -MAX to make it more pilot-friendly?

I have heard this opinion from just about every professional pilot who I've asked. Every 737 pilot I've ever asked to give me an honest assessment of the cockpit tells me that, basically, it's as if the aircraft was designed to irritate the pilots without actually being unsafe.

That said, when DL makes this decision, I am sure that whether the pilots enjoy flying it will be absolutely tip-top on their minds.

As a passenger, I recently spent SFO-DTW-SFO in a DL 738 and, as far as plane rides go, I was very happy with the experience. I especially enjoyed having WiFi and an iPad. It certainly isn't much different than the A320 on the inside. I'm very excited about the Sky Interior.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: XFSUgimpLB41X
Posted 2013-01-24 21:12:32 and read 8700 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 77):
Do you know if Boeing is going to fix the -MAX to make it more pilot-friendly?

I believe the switchology is being improved.. I'm not sure if it's getting an EICAS, though. And I realllly hope they ditch that horrible trim wheel! I was hoping they would redo the nose so it wouldn't be so cramped, but no can do.  
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 77):
I have heard this opinion from just about every professional pilot who I've asked. Every 737 pilot I've ever asked to give me an honest assessment of the cockpit tells me that, basically, it's as if the aircraft was designed to irritate the pilots without actually being unsafe.

That's a fantastic description!

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 77):
That said, when DL makes this decision, I am sure that whether the pilots enjoy flying it will be absolutely tip-top on their minds.

Ha! It'll come down to the almighty dollar.  
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 77):

As a passenger, I recently spent SFO-DTW-SFO in a DL 738 and, as far as plane rides go, I was very happy with the experience. I especially enjoyed having WiFi and an iPad. It certainly isn't much different than the A320 on the inside. I'm very excited about the Sky Interior.

The interior with the ptv's is absolutely fantastic. Between the 738/7 and 320/319, I'll take the airbus any day of the week with how much quieter and wider the cabin is. And very much over a 757! Now then.. give me a 767 any day of the week.   Too bad they are slowly parking the domestic configured 767s...

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: TrijetsRMissed
Posted 2013-01-24 22:03:26 and read 8611 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 72):
That and there's no law that they have to get all 737's or all A320's. They could split the order.

A split order between 30 frames would surprise me. DL has 68 active A320s and 40 of them will be retired in the coming years. Would it make sense to operate a fleet of 43 aircraft? (Assuming DL split it 15/15).

Unless a separate large A320 order is on the horizon, I don't think 43 frames will be seen as a favorable economies-of-scale by the DL C-level.


Quoting B757forever (Reply 67):
I also think it is a foregone conclusion that there are more 717s and MD90s in the future as well.

   I think so... Many widgets will be surprised to learn of the newest leased aircraft and it's origins...   

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: columba
Posted 2013-01-24 22:26:30 and read 8522 times.

If this is for used aircraft, Air Berlin will sell some of its fleet - I guess it will be both A320s and 737-800s - might be an opportunity for DL to get hand of some aircraft quick and cheap.

If DL is indeed planning to order new aircraft I can see this going to Airbus. DL has some of the oldest A320s around and replacing them with new ones seems like the logical choice as they have the pilots and infrastructure for them. Phase one old A320 out get one new in instead

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: United1
Posted 2013-01-24 22:33:19 and read 8521 times.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 79):
  I think so... Many widgets will be surprised to learn of the newest leased aircraft and it's origins...   

...the Lion Air MD90's are coming onboard. At least that's what was said in another thread....

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2013-01-24 22:33:37 and read 8528 times.

Quoting columba (Reply 80):
DL has some of the oldest A320s around and replacing them with new ones seems like the logical choice as they have the pilots and infrastructure for them. Phase one old A320 out get one new in instead

Or reduce the cost and go to a fleet that doesn't have 500 plane types and 313387534853457034873567540274 configs.         

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: columba
Posted 2013-01-24 22:46:56 and read 8491 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 82):
Or reduce the cost and go to a fleet that doesn't have 500 plane types and 313387534853457034873567540274 configs.  

DL has one of the largest fleets worldwide. They will continue to have a mixed Airbus and Boeing fleet as it is impossible to rely only on one manufacturer when you have that many airplanes. They have a different business model as Southwest or Alaska.
The last order for 737-900s to replace the first batch of 757s. But they are still around 150 MD 88s and older A32x that have to be replaced in the near future.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2013-01-24 22:55:25 and read 8511 times.

Quoting columba (Reply 83):
But they are still around 150 MD 88s and older A32x that have to be replaced in the near future.

and 30 airplanes aren't going to replace much of that.

Quoting columba (Reply 83):
The last order for 737-900s to replace the first batch of 757s.

739s will replace ~40 A320s. (and some 757/767 aircraft)

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2013-01-24 23:00:35 and read 8493 times.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 79):
A split order between 30 frames would surprise me. DL has 68 active A320s and 40 of them will be retired in the coming years. Would it make sense to operate a fleet of 43 aircraft? (Assuming DL split it 15/15).

What would you say is the minimum economical fleet size? Remember, these will be used aircraft, so it isn't an "order."

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-01-25 01:54:22 and read 8292 times.

Quoting columba (Reply 83):
DL has one of the largest fleets worldwide. They will continue to have a mixed Airbus and Boeing fleet as it is impossible to rely only on one manufacturer when you have that many airplanes. They have a different business model as Southwest or Alaska.

It's certainly not impossible, DL was doing fine with having only Boeing prior to the NW acquisition. I don't see any reason not to slowly phase out one manufacturer or another. Already knowing how to fly Airbii is irrelevant. Pilots can be trained to fly any type of plane (I fly both C and P ). If not, they can always jump to the bottom of another airline's seniority list.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: panamair
Posted 2013-01-25 03:20:44 and read 8151 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 85):
Remember, these will be used aircraft,

We can't be sure of that. If you believe the article (i.e., they are talking to Airbus and Boeing), these 24-30 will most likely be new aircraft...otherwise they would be talking to other parties, and not the manufacturers themselves. I think Delta is looking at all options...of course they will always be on the lookout for used aircraft, but this is another avenue they are exploring (getting new "old model" aircraft that will be phased out soon, for which the manufacturer could potentially offer a great deal).

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: scbriml
Posted 2013-01-25 05:26:38 and read 7944 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 75):
but yeah, clearly going to be airbus.

No, that's your misinterpretation of my point to those that insist "DL will never buy Airbus". So    right back at you.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 75):
Just like Airbus found the right price and slots for the last bid. Oh damn....thats right they ordered Boeings.

Yes, they did. But, ask yourself, why did DL even invite a bid from Airbus when they already have a guarantee of the most favourable terms from Boeing?

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 75):
Of course not, I don't think you could find a reason for Delta to order Boeing ever again....Bias kinda does that to you.

Bias?    I suspect DL will order Boeing, but why ask Airbus if they have no chance? If Airbus honestly thought they have no chance, they'd tell DL "Thanks, but no thanks."

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: columba
Posted 2013-01-25 08:21:07 and read 7718 times.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 86):
DL was doing fine with having only Boeing prior to the NW acquisition

Know your history, DL had McDonnell Douglas, Lockheed and Boeing aircraft before that (okay the Tristars were retired before the merger with NW) but what I wanted to say is that DL never relied on one manufacturer. The MDDs were bought when MDD was still MDD and not part of Boeing.

The best example to make my point DL chose the Dc 9, MD 80 and even the MD 90 over the 737. The only classic 737s in DL´s fleet were acquirred via mergers. Also the pre merger DL was not that big of an airline as it is today...........

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: neutronstar73
Posted 2013-01-25 08:43:55 and read 7631 times.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 88):
Bias?    I suspect DL will order Boeing, but why ask Airbus if they have no chance? If Airbus honestly thought they have no chance, they'd tell DL "Thanks, but no thanks.

I suspect DL will ask anyone to drive down the prices of the competing product(s). And Airbus isn't dumb enough to tell DL "Thanks, but no thanks" as you say because they know they can always compete for business. To do as you say would be quite dumb.

Same reason why Southwest was floating ideas out there and Airbus, who surely knew that they have even less of a chance with WN than they did with DL, approached them with an idea of business.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...hwest-airbus-idUSLNE77401020110805

So, yeah, I think your point is kinda ridiculous. It would be foolish for Airbus to turn its back on Delta as it would be for Delta to turn its back on Airbus. Got to keep the competition honest.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: SEPilot
Posted 2013-01-25 08:44:15 and read 7631 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 77):
That said, when DL makes this decision, I am sure that whether the pilots enjoy flying it will be absolutely tip-top on their minds.

That's the rub. If pilots had any input into purchase decisions Boeing would have improved the cockpit long ago.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2013-01-25 09:34:08 and read 7511 times.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 88):
No, that's your misinterpretation of my point to those that insist "DL will never buy Airbus". So right back at you.



He also has stated he would never fly on any Airbus with any airline in the past.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2013-01-25 09:51:20 and read 7482 times.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 91):
That's the rub. If pilots had any input into purchase decisions Boeing would have improved the cockpit long ago.

The 737NG is the way it is because of customer input. Customers, especially WN, asked for minimal changes from the 737 Classic. They asked for an inexpensive airplane, not a redesigned Flight Deck structure, which would have added cost. They asked for an airplane that could maintain a Common-Type Rating with the 737-300/-400/-500 to minimize training. Boeing improved the cockpit and features the way the customer asked Boeing do so - or not to do so.

That is an erroneous statement IMHO.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: commavia
Posted 2013-01-25 10:06:03 and read 7414 times.

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 53):
AA required HUNDREDS of aircraft, hence the split
DL requires 30, and they are possibly looking at lightly used aircraft...so the comparison with AA is really quite foolish and ridiculous.

Well, I guess it really depends on how you define "required" and "needed."

AA "needed" (or "required") 500 new airplanes because it's narrowbody fleet was aging - average age around 15-16 years - and AA's strategy dictated that deploying capital into modernizing the fleet with newer, more fuel efficient and less maintenance-intensive models was a sound business decision. Delta doesn't "need" hundreds of new airplanes right now not necessarily because their narrowbody fleet is all that much younger - theirs, too, is in roughly the same average age range - but because Delta's strategy today prioritizes other capital deployment priorities higher than procuring new airplanes.

I don't think it's really a question of "need" or "require," but of strategy. At some point, Delta is going to have to buy hundreds of new narrowbodies, as they have plenty of MD80s, MD90s and A320s that are already at or rapidly approaching 20 years old, and a not-insignificant number of 737s that aren't far behind those. The key, though, is that Delta has made a strategic decision to to buy those hundreds of planes over years, rather than pretty much all at once. So different strategy AA vs Delta - we'll see how it works out for each of them.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: KingAir200
Posted 2013-01-25 12:12:15 and read 7222 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 75):
Thanks, KingAir your a NWer, why did NW go with the A model CFM56-5 for the 319s vs the B?

In the '80s when the initial 320 order was placed, the A series were the only engines available. My understanding of it has been that NW then stayed with the A series throughout the Airbus narrowbody fleet as a factor of both acquisition cost and commonality.

[Edited 2013-01-25 12:12:42]

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: XFSUgimpLB41X
Posted 2013-01-25 12:24:25 and read 7221 times.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 86):
It's certainly not impossible, DL was doing fine with having only Boeing prior to the NW acquisition. I don't see any reason not to slowly phase out one manufacturer or another. Already knowing how to fly Airbii is irrelevant. Pilots can be trained to fly any type of plane (I fly both C and P&nbsp Wink. If not, they can always jump to the bottom of another airline's seniority list.

DL's CEO has stated numerous times that he will go with the manufacturer that best fits the airline. Going with only one manufacturer is poor strategy in his opinion, and I agree.

Quoting KingAir200 (Reply 95):

In the '80s when the initial 320 order was placed, the A series were the only engines available. My understanding of it has been that NW then stayed with the A series throughout the Airbus narrowbody fleet as a factor of both acquisition cost and commonality.

There are 2 different engine types on the 320 series- the 5A1 and 5A3 (takeoff thrust rated to 25,000 and 26,500 respectively. MCT and below is a flat rated value). The 319 has the 5A5 which is 23,500.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 93):

The 737NG is the way it is because of customer input. Customers, especially WN, asked for minimal changes from the 737 Classic. They asked for an inexpensive airplane, not a redesigned Flight Deck structure, which would have added cost. They asked for an airplane that could maintain a Common-Type Rating with the 737-300/-400/-500 to minimize training. Boeing improved the cockpit and features the way the customer asked Boeing do so - or not to do so.

That is an erroneous statement IMHO.

He stated that economics drove the NG design via keeping it common with the classics. You just proved his point.  

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: gigneil
Posted 2013-01-25 12:25:18 and read 7230 times.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 13):
I really hope this is a -700 order.
Quoting yellowtail (Reply 17):
IMHO DL does not like the 319s. their operating costs do not stack up well against the MDs and 737s on most mission requirements

I'd love to see the numbers. The A319 can outdeliver the 737-700 on every performance characteristic.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 25):
I can't remember if the baby 37s have the SFP package, but they do have the 27K CFM-56-7X engine.

They do not. That engine isn't even an option on that airframe.

Delta's were delivered with CFM56-7B24s.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 25):

The A319s have The older CFM-56-5A2 engine and I think 22K. The 73W has better hot/high and short runway performance.

Delta's A319s may not be equipped as well as their 73Gs. In general, the A319 has stellar runway performance.


NS

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: sxf24
Posted 2013-01-25 12:34:57 and read 7166 times.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 97):
I'd love to see the numbers. The A319 can outdeliver the 737-700 on every performance characteristic.

Really? Do you have a source for that claim?

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-01-25 12:42:02 and read 7138 times.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 96):
There are 2 different engine types on the 320 series- the 5A1 and 5A3 (takeoff thrust rated to 25,000 and 26,500 respectively. MCT and below is a flat rated value). The 319 has the 5A5 which is 23,500.

To call these sub-variants "different types" is disingenuous at least and misleading.+

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: gigneil
Posted 2013-01-25 13:09:56 and read 7057 times.

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 98):
Really? Do you have a source for that claim?

I sure do.

NS

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: XFSUgimpLB41X
Posted 2013-01-25 13:33:46 and read 7034 times.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 97):

I'd love to see the numbers. The A319 can outdeliver the 737-700 on every performance characteristic.

FWIW, Richard Anderson disagrees with you. He's not thrilled with the 319's costs vs performance.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-01-25 13:43:48 and read 7009 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 84):
Quoting columba (Reply 83):
But they are still around 150 MD 88s and older A32x that have to be replaced in the near future.

and 30 airplanes aren't going to replace much of that.

Quoting columba (Reply 83):
The last order for 737-900s to replace the first batch of 757s.

739s will replace ~40 A320s. (and some 757/767 aircraft)
Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 84):
Quoting columba (Reply 80):
If DL is indeed planning to order new aircraft I can see this going to Airbus. DL has some of the oldest A320s around and replacing them with new ones seems like the logical choice as they have the pilots and infrastructure for them. Phase one old A320 out get one new in instead

I still stand by my thinking that they will convert the options for the 739's. BTW do they have any options for any Airbus aircraft?

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 86):
Airbii

Its Airbuses not Airbii.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-01-25 14:10:15 and read 6952 times.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 97):

I just meant that in a "the 737-700s are much more comfortable from a passenger aspect" kinda way.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 102):

Maybe so, but I think that may come down the line a bit. Not right yet. But I could be wrong.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: Md88Captain
Posted 2013-01-25 14:35:25 and read 6906 times.

Having flown both, I'd prefer the Airbus product hands down. But this deal will be made on economics, not my preference. (Boeing really dorked up the 737ng thanks to SWA requirements.)

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2013-01-25 14:43:08 and read 6857 times.

Quoting Md88Captain (Reply 105):
(Boeing really dorked up the 737ng thanks to SWA requirements.)

Dorked it up so bad, it's sold what, like 6,000 airplanes?

But yeah, everyone recognizes what you guys are saying. EICAS and a Central Maintenance Function, and a larger flight deck, and an Airport Moving Map, and some other things would be nice in the 2010s..........

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: XFSUgimpLB41X
Posted 2013-01-25 14:51:22 and read 6813 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 106):
Dorked it up so bad, it's sold what, like 6,000 airplanes?

As has been stated, pilots don't buy the airplanes. Boeing takes some input from pilots on design, but it's driven by economics. The junky 737NG cockpit is mostly a result of economics.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2013-01-25 14:52:40 and read 6799 times.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 78):
I was hoping they would redo the nose so it wouldn't be so cramped, but no can do.

It would be an entire new type, which would require separate crew certification, a far more expensive redesign program (even if it was to just graft the 757 nose onto the 737 fuselage), etc. etc. etc. It is too much change to be worth eliminating the 737 type certification and yet not enough change to merit designing an entire new narrbody type.

While I do think that the 737 has the prettiest nose of any narrowbody (given that it's identical to the 727 and 707), I understand that pilots really hate the shape and the aerodynamic noise.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 93):
That is an erroneous statement IMHO.

No, it is very much a true statement. The customer is not the pilot. The people actually signing the order do not have to fly the aircraft. It's one thing if the pilots think that the flight deck is unsafe by design; but then it becomes a certification issue and not a purchase issue. However, as much as pilots dislike the 737 cockpit, I have yet to hear one claim that it is actually unsafe.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: B757forever
Posted 2013-01-25 14:53:13 and read 6811 times.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 97):
They do not. That engine isn't even an option on that airframe.

Delta's were delivered with CFM56-7B24s.

The DL 737-700 aircraft do in fact have CFM56-7B26/3 engines.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: scbriml
Posted 2013-01-25 14:53:26 and read 6836 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 104):
Because they can always get lower.

No, DL is already guaranteed Boeing's lowest price.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 104):
No they wouldn't.

Yes they would. They have in the past - they told O'Leary to take a hike and came within an ace of doing the same with BA before BA begged them to bid for a new narrow-body fleet.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: Md88Captain
Posted 2013-01-25 14:54:19 and read 6821 times.

When your flying 18 days a month, the Airbus is just a much more comfortable way to do it.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: B757forever
Posted 2013-01-25 15:10:49 and read 6750 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 102):
BTW do they have any options for any Airbus aircraft?

They do and they don't. They are not listed with the other commitments and options on the 10K but this footnote was taken straight from "Flight Equipment" on page 18 of Delta's 2012 10K...

(2) Excludes our orders for five A319-100 aircraft and two A320-200 aircraft because we have the right to cancel these orders.

[Edited 2013-01-25 15:20:34]

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: XFSUgimpLB41X
Posted 2013-01-25 15:12:16 and read 6782 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 108):
While I do think that the 737 has the prettiest nose of any narrowbody (given that it's identical to the 727 and 707), I understand that pilots really hate the shape and the aerodynamic noise.

It's a sexy looking nose... until you climb inside it!  

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: YXwatcherMKE
Posted 2013-01-25 20:36:33 and read 6463 times.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 113):
It's a sexy looking nose... until you climb inside it!

Having never sat in that seat, (the closest was 1C) why do pilots complain about the nose of the 737-XXX? And does anyone know if the 737-Max will have the same nose or a new one?

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-01-25 20:53:49 and read 6452 times.

Quoting YXwatcherMKE (Reply 114):

I thought the MAX was to have the same nose, but if they changed it they couldn't make the plane any uglier. (BTW I'm implying that the MAX is going to be ugly with all the changes, not at all implying that the current 737s are ugly, because they ARE NOT   )

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: XFSUgimpLB41X
Posted 2013-01-25 21:09:36 and read 6434 times.

Quoting YXwatcherMKE (Reply 114):

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 113):
It's a sexy looking nose... until you climb inside it!

Having never sat in that seat, (the closest was 1C) why do pilots complain about the nose of the 737-XXX? And does anyone know if the 737-Max will have the same nose or a new one?

The shape of the nose makes for a very small and cramped cockpit. It is basically the same width or even narrower than the CRJ cockpit! Flying up to 7 hour legs in that cockpit is extremely fatiguing. I came off of the 757/767 to the 737, and I found my fatigue level at the end of a day flying the line was much much higher.

Additionally, the shape contributes to very loud cockpit noise (which in turn contributes to fatigue). When flying at indicated airspeeds above 300 knots, the wind noise is deafening. Newer build 737s have vortex generators in front of the windshield which really help out, but it is still a much higher noise level than other airliners with a more blunt shape.

The 737MAX will have the same nose. I really really hope my airline opts for the Airbus NEO!

[Edited 2013-01-25 21:12:38]

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: YXwatcherMKE
Posted 2013-01-25 21:13:48 and read 6421 times.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 115):
I thought the MAX was to have the same nose, but if they changed it they couldn't make the plane any uglier. (BTW I'm implying that the MAX is going to be ugly with all the changes, not at all implying that the current 737s are ugly, because they ARE NOT )

I was not thinking that the 737 was ugly in any way in fact I have always loved the look of the a/c since the first time I saw it way way back in the 70's.             But I was wondering why it was implied that pilots don't like the nose of the a/c?

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2013-01-25 21:54:17 and read 6373 times.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 115):
When flying at indicated airspeeds above 300 knots, the wind noise is deafening.

Deafening, hardly. I spent over 30 years in a 737, never used a noise canceling headset and never had an issue. The newer ones are quieter but .... In one of my first flights in a 757 I was amazed how quiet it was incomparison even at speeds in excess of Vmo. But if you want "deafening" pity the poor freight guys--that's deafening.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: XFSUgimpLB41X
Posted 2013-01-25 22:04:52 and read 6372 times.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 117):

Deafening, hardly. I spent over 30 years in a 737, never used a noise canceling headset and never had an issue. The newer ones are quieter but .... In one of my first flights in a 757 I was amazed how quiet it was incomparison even at speeds in excess of Vmo. But if you want "deafening" pity the poor freight guys--that's deafening.

Well, in comparison to the 727 it's not deafening.   The noise levels on the FLUF definitely gave a marked increase in fatigue at the end of the day.

And yep... on the 757 and 320 the loudest noise in the cockpit is the recirc fans, even when doing 350 indicated (20 knots faster than the 737 can indicate!).

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: papatango
Posted 2013-01-28 10:50:11 and read 5701 times.

Another rumor which died a slow death!

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2013-01-28 11:02:42 and read 5654 times.

What rumor? This one?

These things take time.

Remember how long the "717's were a done deal" before it was even tenatively announced by Delta? - close to 6 months.

It is foregone conclusion that Delta will be ordering new airplanes and also acquiring additional second-hand airplanes in 2013.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-01-28 14:50:32 and read 5399 times.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 115):
Newer build 737s have vortex generators in front of the windshield which really help out, but it is still a much higher noise level than other airliners with a more blunt shape.

Vortex generators visible here.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Joop Stroes - Global Aviation Photography
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Roberto gorini

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-01-28 15:18:17 and read 5334 times.

Quoting columba (Reply 89):
Know your history

LOLOL, 3 points....1) My degree is in history, so I know a bit about it(especially mid-20th century European history).... 2) I work for Delta, so I know a bit about it also.....Lastly, 3) It's a BOEING MD-88 and a BOEING MD-90...DL goes to BOEING for tech support regarding the BOEING MD-88 and the BOEING MD-90. Delta had dealings with only ONE manufacturer which, coincidentally, was BOEING. So no, it was NOT 'impossible to rely on one manufacturer when you have that many airplanes'. Delta was relying ONLY on BOEING and no other manufacturer up until they acquired NWA.

Know THIS...MD, like NW, like PA, like TW, like CO, like EA...is GONE. Get over it.

It might interest you to know that my dad flew BOEINGS in 1942 and was a 'guest' of the German Government for 3 years.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2013-01-28 15:24:53 and read 5331 times.

Quoting columba (Reply 89):
Know your history, DL had McDonnell Douglas, Lockheed and Boeing aircraft before that (okay the Tristars were retired before the merger with NW) but what I wanted to say is that DL never relied on one manufacturer. The MDDs were bought when MDD was still MDD and not part of Boeing.

DL also had A310s long before the NW merger. I think they inherited them from PA.

Speaking of knowing history. DL bought DC-8s and DC-9s from Douglas, longer before it became McD in 1967. Not only did they buy MDDs before MDD was part of Boeing but they bought them long before MDD was MDD. And of course they bought Convairs also.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: KC135TopBoom
Posted 2013-01-28 16:14:49 and read 5222 times.

Quoting columba (Reply 89):
The only classic 737s in DL´s fleet were acquirred via mergers.

Not true. DL took delivery of 35 new build B-737-200ADVs between 1983 and 1987 from Boeing. They took delivery of 5 B-737-300s in 1993. I'm not sure about the B-733s (those could have been Western Airlines's order), but I know the B-732 order was not a result of any merger.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-01-28 16:16:00 and read 5200 times.

I know what they had. But the point was that at the time of acquisition of NW, Delta only had BOEING airplanes and was relying on only ONE manufacturer. Had Delta not acquired NW, they would be, right now, relying on only one manufacturer. SO, AGAIN, it was NOT 'impossible to rely on one manufacturer when you have that many airplanes'. When, in fact it OBVIOUSLY WAS.  

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-01-28 16:28:33 and read 5143 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 123):
Speaking of knowing history. DL bought DC-8s and DC-9s from Douglas, longer before it became McD in 1967.

DL was the DC-9's launch customer and first operator. Their first DC-9-14 was delivered September 18, 1965 and the inaugural passenger flight was December 8, 1965, routing Atlanta-Memphis-Kansas City.

Although DL wasn't the DC-8 launch customer, both UA and DL became the first DC-8 operators the same day, September 18, 1959.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: NWAROOSTER
Posted 2013-01-28 16:29:02 and read 5243 times.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 122):
1) My degree is in history, so I know a bit about it(especially mid-20th century European history).... 2) I work for Delta, so I know a bit about it also.....Lastly, 3) It's a BOEING MD-88 and a BOEING MD-90

When Delta acquired all their MD-88s, they were acquired from McDonnell Douglas. The newest one was acquired in about October 1993. All the new build MD-90s that Delta bought were also acquired from McDonnell Douglas with the newest being delivered in about October, 1996. McDonnell Douglas was NOT acquired by Boeing until December 15, 1996.
Delta NOW may be dealing with Boeing about aircraft that McDonnell Douglas built which includes the DC-9-51s that it acquired from Northwest Airlines.   

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: ocracoke
Posted 2013-01-28 16:33:43 and read 5230 times.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 122):
Delta was relying ONLY on BOEING and no other manufacturer up until they acquired NWA.
Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 125):

I know what they had. But the point was that at the time of acquisition of NW, Delta only had BOEING airplanes and was relying on only ONE manufacturer. Had Delta not acquired NW, they would be, right now, relying on only one manufacturer.

Technically (and I know the point you are trying to make)....

No.

Though DL doesn't "fly" them, DL does OWN a good number of aircraft made by Bombardier.

CRJ-200, CRJ-700, CRJ-900.

At the time of the merger (and today still), DL was relying on that manufacturer in Montreal to take care of their regional plane needs. Again, I know DL proper doesn't fly them, but they are in the fleet, and DL did (does) use someone else beyond Boeing to take care of their smaller sized aircraft needs.

Technically speaking.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: cokepopper
Posted 2013-01-28 16:37:26 and read 5200 times.

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 127):
When Delta acquired all their MD-88s, they were acquired from McDonnell Douglas. The newest one was acquired in about October 1993. All the new build MD-90s that Delta bought were also acquired from McDonnell Douglas with the newest being delivered in about October, 1996. McDonnell Douglas was NOT acquired by Boeing until December 15, 1996.
Delta NOW may be dealing with Boeing about aircraft that McDonnell Douglas built which includes the DC-9-51s that it acquired from Northwest Airlines.  

I believe his point was A THE TIME OF THE AQUISITION of NW..
See...

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 125):
I know what they had. But the point was that at the time of acquisition of NW, Delta only had BOEING airplanes and was relying on only ONE manufacturer. Had Delta not acquired NW, they would be, right now, relying on only one manufacturer. SO, AGAIN, it was NOT 'impossible to rely on one manufacturer when you have that many airplanes'. When, in fact it OBVIOUSLY WAS.  

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-01-28 16:52:43 and read 5144 times.

Quoting ocracoke (Reply 128):
Technically (and I know the point you are trying to make)....

No.

Though DL doesn't "fly" them, DL does OWN a good number of aircraft made by Bombardier.

CRJ-200, CRJ-700, CRJ-900.

At the time of the merger (and today still), DL was relying on that manufacturer in Montreal to take care of their regional plane needs. Again, I know DL proper doesn't fly them, but they are in the fleet, and DL did (does) use someone else beyond Boeing to take care of their smaller sized aircraft needs.

Technically speaking.

Then I am technically incorrect and stand corrected. I know you realize this, the debate was whether Delta needed both Airgreyhound AND Boeing. My point was/is that they didn't/don't. PS, I'm also from Montreal.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-01-28 17:01:18 and read 5099 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 123):
DL bought DC-8s and DC-9s from Douglas, long before it became McD in 1967.

Don't forget the DC-3, DC-4, DC-6 and DC-7. I believe Delta's first Boeings were 727s inherited from NE in 1972.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: wjcandee
Posted 2013-01-28 17:06:54 and read 5096 times.

Quoting Md88Captain (Reply 104):

Having flown both, I'd prefer the Airbus product hands down. But this deal will be made on economics, not my preference. (Boeing really dorked up the 737ng thanks to SWA requirements.)

A buddy of mine flew 757s for ATA. Then, he found himself with the opportunity to be in the left seat of the 737-800s that were coming on the property. ATA gold-plated their 737s, with HUDs, top-of-the-line avionics, etc. (ATA initiated the RNAV approach to MDW now used by WN.) Accordingly, he was kinda pumped about the aircraft.

Then he wasn't. His comment was that the systems, cockpit layout, and overall feel of the aircraft as it waddled its way to the runway, wing-flex accentuating every bump, made him yearn for the 757. He was surprised at how much had not been improved. Lipstick on a pig.

Not that it's not a reliable, workhorse aircraft. But you don't have to read too much of Captain Dave's blog to see how much fun an A320 can be in the hands of someone with good stick-and-rudder skills and a thorough command of the aircraft systems. I'm amused by how much Dave enjoys using what the Company would like him to believe are the A320's "Emergency Flight Controls" (the stick and rudder).

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: PGNCS
Posted 2013-01-28 17:14:33 and read 5042 times.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 63):
From a pilot standpoint, the 737 is awful. I sure hope Airbus gets this round!

   Spot on, XFSU!

Quoting Md88Captain (Reply 110):
When your flying 18 days a month, the Airbus is just a much more comfortable way to do it.

Without any question.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 107):
However, as much as pilots dislike the 737 cockpit, I have yet to hear one claim that it is actually unsafe.

It's horrible, fatiguing, and unergonomic. Except for the blood and hair left in the numerous protruding switches on the overhead panel, nobody is claiming it to be unsafe to my knowledge either, though it is bad for your hearing.

Quoting YXwatcherMKE (Reply 113):
Having never sat in that seat, (the closest was 1C) why do pilots complain about the nose of the 737-XXX?

There is room for NOTHING, it is cramped, it is noisy, it has horrible ergonomics compared to any other (mainline at least) airliner currently in production, and is very fatiguing.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 115):
The shape of the nose makes for a very small and cramped cockpit. It is basically the same width or even narrower than the CRJ cockpit! Flying up to 7 hour legs in that cockpit is extremely fatiguing. I came off of the 757/767 to the 737, and I found my fatigue level at the end of a day flying the line was much much higher.

Additionally, the shape contributes to very loud cockpit noise (which in turn contributes to fatigue). When flying at indicated airspeeds above 300 knots, the wind noise is deafening. Newer build 737s have vortex generators in front of the windshield which really help out, but it is still a much higher noise level than other airliners with a more blunt shape.

The 737MAX will have the same nose. I really really hope my airline opts for the Airbus NEO!

I agree. I sincerely hope I never have to fly the 737 ever again. It is the only airliner I have flown that I openly detested.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 117):
Deafening, hardly. I spent over 30 years in a 737, never used a noise canceling headset and never had an issue.

It is VERY loud compared to other airliners, almost equalling the horrendous 727. If you flew the 737 for 30+ years I would not be at all surprised to discover that you have measurable hearing loss. I always flew it with earplugs under my headset, a habit reinforced by observing that most of the 727 and 737 Captains I flew with as an FO or FE were deaf as posts.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 118):
The noise levels on the FLUF definitely gave a marked increase in fatigue at the end of the day.

   Absolutely.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2013-01-28 17:36:09 and read 4968 times.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 130):
Then I am technically incorrect and stand corrected. I know you realize this, the debate was whether Delta needed both Airgreyhound AND Boeing. My point was/is that they didn't/don't. PS, I'm also from Montreal.

They don't, but if they can't find an entire set of frames of one type, my point is that there is nothing stopping them from splitting the type.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: TrijetsRMissed
Posted 2013-01-28 17:37:41 and read 4985 times.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 122):
My degree is in history, so I know a bit about it(especially mid-20th century European history).... 2) I work for Delta, so I know a bit about it also.....Lastly, 3) It's a BOEING MD-88 and a BOEING MD-90...DL goes to BOEING for tech support regarding the BOEING MD-88 and the BOEING MD-90. Delta had dealings with only ONE manufacturer which, coincidentally, was BOEING.

Boeing MD-90?   For someone who seems to know it all, it's funny that you're employer seems to disagree...

http://www.delta.com/content/www/en_...craft/mcdonnell-douglas-md-90.html

Quoting cokepopper (Reply 129):
I believe his point was A THE TIME OF THE AQUISITION of NW..
See...

Which therefore would be incorrect, as at the time these aircraft were ordered and delivered, the manufacturer was McDonnell Douglas. Hence "aircraft built from one manufacturer" is historically inaccurate, as NWAROOSTER points out.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-01-28 17:39:08 and read 4988 times.

With more than 10,000 or so sold/delivered, Boeing really dropped the ball on this one.

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 133):
it is bad for your hearing.
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 133):
It is VERY loud compared to other airliners, almost equalling the horrendous 727. If you flew the 737 for 30+ years I would not be at all surprised to discover that you have measurable hearing loss. I always flew it with earplugs under my headset, a habit reinforced by observing that most of the 727 and 737 Captains I flew with as an FO or FE were deaf as posts.

What?? TYPE LOUDER!!   Sharing the same nose, I wonder if the 707/KC-135 crews had the same problems.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: TrijetsRMissed
Posted 2013-01-28 17:46:24 and read 4945 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 85):
Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 79):
A split order between 30 frames would surprise me. DL has 68 active A320s and 40 of them will be retired in the coming years. Would it make sense to operate a fleet of 43 aircraft? (Assuming DL split it 15/15).

What would you say is the minimum economical fleet size? Remember, these will be used aircraft, so it isn't an "order."

I think if the MD-90 is any indication, 65-80 aircraft is preferred. Perhaps 50-60 would suffice, given the A319 commonality. Remember, the plan for the MD-90 was to grow the fleet comfortably above 50 frames or phase out altogether. These discussions pre-date the NW merger.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2013-01-28 20:30:57 and read 4755 times.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 135):

Boeing MD-90?   For someone who seems to know it all, it's funny that you're employer seems to disagree...

http://www.delta.com/content/www/en_...craft/mcdonnell-douglas-md-90.html

His point is its Boeing now. (and support comes from Boeing)


I honestly can't believe we are having this pissing match.         

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: TrijetsRMissed
Posted 2013-01-28 21:37:43 and read 4626 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 138):
His point is its Boeing now. (and support comes from Boeing)

Yeah, thanks - I got that. And like I said, the argument is still false.

Do you remember the landing gear wiring AD from 3-4 years ago? Do you think it said "Boeing MD-88" on it? Guess what, it said "McDonnell Douglas MD-88" with some legal language on how Boeing has absorbed the OEM support responsibility. See, that's my point. No matter how you try to spin it, even technically in the legal language it's still not a "Boeing"...understand?

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 138):
I honestly can't believe we are having this pissing match.

Are you kidding me? You of all people should be the last to comment on pissing matches...   

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2013-01-28 22:08:14 and read 4559 times.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 139):

Do you remember the landing gear wiring AD from 3-4 years ago? Do you think it said "Boeing MD-88" on it? Guess what, it said "McDonnell Douglas MD-88" with some legal language on how Boeing has absorbed the OEM support responsibility. See, that's my point. No matter how you try to spin it, even technically in the legal language it's still not a "Boeing"...understand?

No just like the TCDS says MD. Again, when dealing with support a MD is now a Boeing.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 139):
Are you kidding me?

uh...yeah hints that faces.  
Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 138):
        
Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 139):
And like I said, the argument is still false.

The way it was said? yes, the idea that i get from it? no
when talking about the product support its the same for the 717/737/747/757/767/777/M88/M90 and will be for the 787.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: columba
Posted 2013-01-28 22:10:35 and read 4564 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 138):
His point is its Boeing now. (and support comes from Boeing)

This point is invalid because at the time DL was buying their MD 80s and MD 90s, they made a contract with MDD not Boeing. The airplanes were delivered in Long Beach from MDD. Ergo when it comes to fleet decisions DL never relied on one manufacturer only. They have split their fleet between MDD and Boeing back then (and Convair and Lockheed if you go further back) as they do now with Airbus, Bombardier and Boeing.
That later MDD was acquired was something DL could not foresee and was not a factor in DL fleet decision.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 126):

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 123):
Speaking of knowing history. DL bought DC-8s and DC-9s from Douglas, longer before it became McD in 1967.

DL was the DC-9's launch customer and first operator. Their first DC-9-14 was delivered September 18, 1965 and the inaugural passenger flight was December 8, 1965, routing Atlanta-Memphis-Kansas City

That is why I considered DL always more of a Douglas airline than Boeing airline. But although being a loyal Douglas customer DL decided against the Dc 10 and for the L1011 which I find really interesting.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 124):
I'm not sure about the B-733s (those could have been Western Airlines's order), but I know the B-732 order was not a result of any merger.

Thanks, than I was thinking only of the 737-300s.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 123):
DL also had A310s long before the NW merger. I think they inherited them from PA.

Yes, but as DL did not originally ordered them by themself I did not use them as an argument for my point that DL never relied on one manufacturer only

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 122):
It might interest you to know that my dad flew BOEINGS in 1942 and was a 'guest' of the German Government for 3 years.

What do you want to say to me with that ? But if you want to exchange family stories about WW II here is mine :
My great aunt is from Dresden and she married a B17 bomber pilot although she was in Dresden while that city was bombed twice and she nearly died in the flames. She later moved with him to New Jersey were they were happily married for 60 years

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: gigneil
Posted 2013-01-29 00:10:57 and read 4404 times.

Quoting B757forever (Reply 108):
The DL 737-700 aircraft do in fact have CFM56-7B26/3 engines.

I am looking at the both the titles and the certificates for N306DQ and N307DQ and they have CFM-7B24s. I cannot imagine any more definitive source.

Perhaps they've been uprated, but they definitely weren't delivered with them. If they have been plugged and I'm unaware, I'll defer...

NS

[Edited 2013-01-29 00:14:35]

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2013-01-29 01:09:22 and read 4300 times.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 142):

All the Delta docs. say CFM56-7B26/3. Delta gives out fleet books that have the engine type(plus a bunch of other info, ships numbers, yada yada) and I am looking at one right now that says they have 26K engines.

No mod has been done. I have seen 24K engines listed on place like planespotters, but I have no idea where they are getting this from.

They are 26K engines just like the companies 832s.   

Delta wanted, and got the highest rated engines on the 700s for places like UIO/TGU/MAO/SNA etc.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 97):
They do not. That engine isn't even an option on that airframe.

may wanna check the TCDS.   

"CFM56-7B26/3 26,300 25,900, Limited to 22,800 by FMC" right from the 737-700, -800, - 600 engine section under 737-700

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: scbriml
Posted 2013-01-29 04:18:51 and read 4140 times.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 136):
With more than 10,000 or so sold/delivered, Boeing really dropped the ball on this one.

Luckily for Boeing, pilots don't buy planes for airlines.   

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: SEPilot
Posted 2013-01-29 05:15:17 and read 3997 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 93):

The 737NG is the way it is because of customer input.

Customers are airline execs, not pilots. I was speaking of pilots, not airline execs.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 93):
That is an erroneous statement IMHO.

In what way?

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-01-29 22:42:59 and read 3489 times.

Quoting columba (Reply 141):
What do you want to say to me with that ? But if you want to exchange family stories about WW II here is mine :
My great aunt is from Dresden and she married a B17 bomber pilot although she was in Dresden while that city was bombed twice and she nearly died in the flames. She later moved with him to New Jersey were they were happily married for 60 years

Wow, it's amazing that anybody survived that. Our two family members seem to be some of the lucky ones who walked away from the abyss of war.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2013-01-29 23:07:25 and read 3459 times.

Quoting columba (Reply 141):
This point is invalid because at the time DL was buying their MD 80s and MD 90s, they made a contract with MDD not Boeing. The airplanes were delivered in Long Beach from MDD. Ergo when it comes to fleet decisions DL never relied on one manufacturer only. They have split their fleet between MDD and Boeing back then (and Convair and Lockheed if you go further back) as they do now with Airbus, Bombardier and Boeing.
That later MDD was acquired was something DL could not foresee and was not a factor in DL fleet decision.

ugh. Ok 1) your wrong, Delta signed a contract with Boeing in the late 90s to be the only aircraft manufacture for Delta.
2) No my point is very valid. If a M88 needs a part from the OEM who do they get it from?


But I'mm done, I really don't care, lol. Whatever they buy it would be nice if they did all the MX in house. (which I know wont happen but it'd be nice)

Oh, and lets go a head and stop saying anything about EMB or BBD, thats the biggest joke in the world. Delta is nothing but a leasing company that owns both products.



Quoting gigneil (Reply 142):

N301DQ-N/A
N302DQ- http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinqu...ts.aspx?NNumbertxt=302DQ&x=13&y=21
N303DQ- http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinqu...lts.aspx?NNumbertxt=303DQ&x=16&y=8
N304DQ- http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinqu...ts.aspx?NNumbertxt=304DQ&x=27&y=19
N305DQ- http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinqu...ts.aspx?NNumbertxt=305DQ&x=18&y=19
N306DQ- http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinqu...lts.aspx?NNumbertxt=306DQ&x=28&y=4
N307DQ- http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinqu...ts.aspx?NNumbertxt=307DQ&x=24&y=18
N308DE- http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinqu...ts.aspx?NNumbertxt=308DE&x=32&y=18
N309DE- http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinqu...ts.aspx?NNumbertxt=309DE&x=14&y=10
N310DE- http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinqu...lts.aspx?NNumbertxt=310DE&x=17&y=9

finally found something public I could post. For whatever reason ship 301 does not list an engine type.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: Eightball
Posted 2013-01-30 00:18:39 and read 3394 times.

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 133):
most of the 727 and 737 Captains I flew with as an FO or FE were deaf as posts.

PGNCS, that comment cracked me up.    I'm currently in a flight training program in order to get my commercial pilot license, and if my career planning works out and I become an airline pilot, then I hope that I would get a chance to fly the A320 at some point in my career.

Topic: RE: Delta Looking To Order 24-30 A320 Or 737s?
Username: scbriml
Posted 2013-01-30 04:46:28 and read 3272 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 147):
Delta signed a contract with Boeing in the late 90s to be the only aircraft manufacture for Delta.

The exclusivity part of which was dropped almost immediately in return for EU agreement to the MD merger.

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/1997/news.release.970723.html

Quote:
... to secure merger approval Boeing further agreed not to enforce the exclusivity provisions in its existing agreements with American Airlines, Delta Airlines and Continental Airlines.


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