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Topic: Hainan Airlines To Start PEK-ORD On Sept 3
Username: dtfg
Posted 2013-01-28 08:00:22 and read 7821 times.

According to airlineroute, Hainan Airlines will start Beijing-Chicago from Sept 3 2013, operating by A330-200 four weekly.

I highly doubt that A330-200 would be able to handle such a route well

Topic: RE: Hainan Airlines To Start PEK-ORD On Sept 3
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-01-28 08:20:09 and read 7781 times.

The applied for it last year, and said they were planning 787 service.

Hainan Airlines Applies For PEK-ORD 787 Service (by LAXintl Jun 28 2012 in Civil Aviation)

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Topic: RE: Hainan Airlines To Start PEK-ORD On Sept 3
Username: B2443
Posted 2013-01-28 08:37:04 and read 7712 times.

787 hasn't been certified by CAAC and as a result, HU/CZ have not taken 787 deliveries yet so who knows when they will have 787s in hand. But considering DL was able to use 332's to fly DTW/HND, PEK/ORD shouldn't be a problem.

Topic: RE: Hainan Airlines To Start PEK-ORD On Sept 3
Username: dtfg
Posted 2013-01-28 08:37:42 and read 7714 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
The applied for it last year, and said they were planning 787 service.

Hainan Airlines Applies For PEK-ORD 787 Service (by LAXintl Jun 28 2012 in Civil Aviation)

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yes originally they plan to do it with 787, but for some reason the delivery was postponed and now...grounded...

Topic: RE: Hainan Airlines To Start PEK-ORD On Sept 3
Username: dtfg
Posted 2013-01-28 08:40:54 and read 7694 times.

I am also wondering how they will cooperate with AA. Better to see the time schedule first.

Topic: RE: Hainan Airlines To Start PEK-ORD On Sept 3
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-01-28 08:47:37 and read 7664 times.

Neither AA nor HU have applied to codeshare with each other on this service. We discussed that matter last summer.

So as of now they would be competing against each other.

As we know AA has some terrible slot timings for its own ORD-PEK services, so its will be interesting to see what if anything it can manage to cooperate with HU.

Topic: RE: Hainan Airlines To Start PEK-ORD On Sept 3
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2013-01-28 08:51:43 and read 7641 times.

I'm not seeing it posted. Send a link please.

Topic: RE: Hainan Airlines To Start PEK-ORD On Sept 3
Username: dtfg
Posted 2013-01-28 09:18:15 and read 7584 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
As we know AA has some terrible slot timings for its own ORD-PEK services, so its will be interesting to see what if anything it can manage to cooperate with HU.

HU posted the schedule on their facebook.

HU497 13:20 PEK - 13:30 ORD
HU498 15:30 ORD - 18:40+1 PEK

Bless AA if they are competing against HU

Topic: RE: Hainan Airlines To Start PEK-ORD On Sept 3
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2013-01-28 09:23:42 and read 7547 times.

Wow. Will that be the longest A330-200 route? I wonder what type of weight restrictions they will see. They can take a polar route to avoid winds (is the A330 certified for polar operations?), but that is still a very long route for the plane.

Topic: RE: Hainan Airlines To Start PEK-ORD On Sept 3
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-01-28 09:23:45 and read 7547 times.

Here is press release:

Hainan Airlines Announces Its Newest American Gateway
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/hainan...ces-newest-american-120000625.html

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Topic: RE: Hainan Airlines To Start PEK-ORD On Sept 3
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2013-01-28 09:37:31 and read 7478 times.

Quoting dtfg (Reply 7):
Bless AA if they are competing against HU

Although a 3x weekly service likely will rock the boat, I don't think it will overturn the ship for AA. Nevertheless, it does ramp up the urgency for AA to secure better slots in PEK in order for the nonstop flight to ORD to remain viable over the long turn.

AA has also been able to rely on cargo to help them out on the ORD-PEK route, but inevitably HU may take away some of that cargo traffic.

Curious to know how the code-share agreement between HU and AA will work out on this route if anyone wants to shed some light.

Topic: RE: Hainan Airlines To Start PEK-ORD On Sept 3
Username: mah4546
Posted 2013-01-28 09:48:09 and read 7424 times.

American and Hanian already codeshare on ORD-PEK. It is HU 8906/07. They will undoubtedly codeshare on this route, as well.

Topic: RE: Hainan Airlines To Start PEK-ORD On Sept 3
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-01-28 12:38:06 and read 7166 times.

Regarding AA-HU codeshare, up to now the codeshare have been complimentary as airlines have not directly competed.

Its simple to codeshare when someone adds some routes to your network, its another to friendly codeshare with someone you compete head on with especially when there are no alliance links, or other commercial partnerships.

I'll be interested to see how things play out in the long run on the route.

Topic: RE: Hainan Airlines To Start PEK-ORD On Sept 3
Username: jcwr56
Posted 2013-01-28 12:57:03 and read 7108 times.

Yes, this does upset AA a little since they've been trying to move 186 for the longest time.

The ground time will only allow for a T5 turn at ORD.

Yes, it was planned for an 787, then advised me of a 346 and just a few days ago changed it to a 332.

Topic: RE: Hainan Airlines To Start PEK-ORD On Sept 3
Username: ba319-131
Posted 2013-01-28 13:24:39 and read 7051 times.

Good, nice to see HU add another international gateway.

I do see HU as being the future OW partner on China. They are the 4th largest carrier in China and the only one with no alignment alliance wise, OW must surely be talking to these guys, they are the only alliance without a Chinese partner, and before anyone says Cathay Pacific, that's Hong Kong, not China.

I've flown HU once myself, CAN-PEK on aboard and A340-600, nice flight and crews from memory.

Topic: RE: Hainan Airlines To Start PEK-ORD On Sept 3
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2013-01-28 14:28:29 and read 6922 times.

Quoting ba319-131 (Reply 14):
I do see HU as being the future OW partner on China. They are the 4th largest carrier in China and the only one with no alignment alliance wise, OW must surely be talking to these guys, they are the only alliance without a Chinese partner, and before anyone says Cathay Pacific, that's Hong Kong, not China.

OW desperately needs HU in the alliance, but unfortunately, there appears to be politics involved (at least based on what I've heard).

Agree with you on the CX situation. Cathay's relationship with AA and OW is lukewarm at best and aside from this, they don't provide the role and presence that the alliance needs in mainland China.

Topic: RE: Hainan Airlines To Start PEK-ORD On Sept 3
Username: kngkyle
Posted 2013-01-28 14:45:56 and read 6878 times.

So 3x daily on ORD-PEK on for 4 days a week. Hopefully enough demand to support that!

Topic: RE: Hainan Airlines To Start PEK-ORD On Sept 3
Username: pudfw
Posted 2013-01-28 15:33:13 and read 6792 times.

I know this has been discussed before but how much more capacity does ORD have at T5? Seems like its full now and in a couple of years there won't be any space. I've heard nothing about adding additional capacity.

PUDFW

Topic: RE: Hainan Airlines To Start PEK-ORD On Sept 3
Username: davidho1985
Posted 2013-01-28 17:25:25 and read 6627 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 15):
OW desperately needs HU in the alliance, but unfortunately, there appears to be politics involved (at least based on what I've heard).

The biggest issue is CX as CX considered that HU's subsidiaries, Hong Kong Airlines and Hong Kong Express, are competiting with CX & Dragonair in Hong Kong. So CX is not willing to allow HU to join OW.

Topic: RE: Hainan Airlines To Start PEK-ORD On Sept 3
Username: WROORD
Posted 2013-01-28 18:33:33 and read 6517 times.

Isn't CX partially owned by CZ so if they get tick off they can switch to *A. HU is nice on international routes, but domestically they are just average. HU can collect traffic from mainland China to ORD and beyond via AA and AA can do the opposite. UA has that ability with CZ.

Topic: RE: Hainan Airlines To Start PEK-ORD On Sept 3
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-01-28 18:45:14 and read 6488 times.

Quoting WROORD (Reply 19):
sn't CX partially owned by CZ so if they get tick off they can switch to *A.

CA (Air China, Star Alliance), not CZ (China Southern, SkyTeam), owns approximately 30% of CX. They have a reciprocal shareholding with CX also owning a little less than 20% of CA. Those figures as of 2011.

Topic: RE: Hainan Airlines To Start PEK-ORD On Sept 3
Username: justinlee
Posted 2013-01-29 05:13:14 and read 5597 times.

Quoting davidho1985 (Reply 18):
The biggest issue is CX as CX considered that HU's subsidiaries, Hong Kong Airlines and Hong Kong Express, are competiting with CX & Dragonair in Hong Kong. So CX is not willing to allow HU to join OW.

But actually both Hong Kong Airlines and Hong Kong Express target at different customers. They generally focus at leisure travelers especially after the failure of the all-business flights to LHR. With the fact that the main hub of HNA Group is PEK nowadays, CX really should approve this move.

Topic: RE: Hainan Airlines To Start PEK-ORD On Sept 3
Username: davidho1985
Posted 2013-01-29 05:44:57 and read 5453 times.

Quoting justinlee (Reply 21):
But actually both Hong Kong Airlines and Hong Kong Express target at different customers. They generally focus at leisure travelers especially after the failure of the all-business flights to LHR. With the fact that the main hub of HNA Group is PEK nowadays, CX really should approve this move.

Both Hong Kong Airlines (HX) and Hong Kong Express (UO) are catching up, especially they have the strong financial backup from HU. Actually their services and the hardware are more or less on par with CX (Regional flights) and KA.

For business-oriented flights, both CX & KA still have the advantages over HX & UO, however, on leisure route, the competition between them are quite intense.

For all-business flight to LHR, it made no commercial sense. However, due to the air traffic rights, HX (or UO) is not allowed to have more than 100 something seats per flight, therefore, they came up with the idea of full business flight and hope that the route can survive until the re-negotiation of the air traffic right (which will enable them to use the normal configured aircraft)

Topic: RE: Hainan Airlines To Start PEK-ORD On Sept 3
Username: ordjoe
Posted 2013-01-29 05:57:36 and read 5391 times.

I will welcome them in, fares from ORD-PEK have been insane often $1400+ R/T. I do wish them the best, but this could be a tough job with the 332. I would admit though it would be nice if CA or CZ started pax service instead, but will take anything. It is always nice to see some new metal at ORD.

Topic: RE: Hainan Airlines To Start PEK-ORD On Sept 3
Username: TWA902fly
Posted 2013-01-29 06:31:30 and read 5229 times.

I believe this may be the longest A330-200 route to date. I couldn't find the thread with that discussion, but I remember ICN-NBO, LAX-AKL and DTW-HND being some of the longest routes.

HU ORD-PEK 6579sm
QF LAX-AKL 6504sm
DL DTW-HND 6427sm
KE ICN-NBO 6250sm


'902

Topic: RE: Hainan Airlines To Start PEK-ORD On Sept 3
Username: jayunited
Posted 2013-01-29 08:11:14 and read 4941 times.

Quoting kngkyle (Reply 16):
So 3x daily on ORD-PEK on for 4 days a week. Hopefully enough demand to support that!

I think there is enough demand in Chicago to support 3x PEK flights for 4 days a week. I think it's strange that HU is starting ORD-PEK service in September and don't get me wrong demand is still high is September and October but it starts to drop fast in November. Chicago and the surrounding suburbs have a growing Chinese population and there are a lot of businesses here who conduct business in China so I believe that there is more than enough demand during the high months to support a 3 entry into this market. Also keep in maine that PEK is a hot tourist destination from early spring thru late fall.

I think the winter months of 2013-2014 will show who the strong players are on this route because from December to early March the only people going to PEK are Chinese Nationals and business travelers. HU should have no problem attracting Chinese nationals but they may need to do some work to attract corporate clients may of whom already have contracts with AA and UA. Also in order for HU to survive the winter months they will desperately need a lot of cargo contracts as well. During the winter months United moves huge amounts of cargo on this route to make up for the lack of passenger revenue. In the winter months it is not uncommon to see a inbound flight come in loaded with 40,000 to 50,000 pounds of freight and mail. Whereas that same aircraft in the summer would only have about 20,000 to 25,000 because of the heavy passenger loads.

Topic: RE: Hainan Airlines To Start PEK-ORD On Sept 3
Username: strfyr51
Posted 2013-01-29 09:02:15 and read 4838 times.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 25):

This is very true BUT! what kind of possible backing is the Chinese govt. going to give to make sure Hainan won't go bust on the route. Peking (Beijing) isn't very transparent in their dealings and I doubt they'll Not insure Hainan doesn't lose their Shirts.
We at United, and American have been on the route now for quite a while with no Chinese response to speak of and have had time to prove the route. The Chinese can look at everything we see and make their OWN calculations. of Profitability.
As they are "Shrewd and Prudent" businessmen and Women.

Topic: RE: Hainan Airlines To Start PEK-ORD On Sept 3
Username: United787
Posted 2013-01-29 11:05:37 and read 4754 times.

I wonder if HU is still planning on this as a 787 route and assuming they will be flying by then (god help Boeing if they aren't). But, it is better PR to just avoid saying the 787 in a press release. If the 787s are flying, I doubt this will ever be an A332...IMHO

Glad to see another carrier at ORD...hopefully all of these carriers at ORD will help push along plans for new terminals...T5 is getting full...

Topic: RE: Hainan Airlines To Start PEK-ORD On Sept 3
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-01-29 11:49:28 and read 4715 times.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 25):
I think there is enough demand in Chicago to support 3x PEK flights for 4 days a week.

Not on paper.

PDEW is mere 265 per day

Not even West Coast gateways of LAX and SFO support 3x daily to PEK.

Topic: RE: Hainan Airlines To Start PEK-ORD On Sept 3
Username: jcwr56
Posted 2013-01-29 12:00:36 and read 4681 times.

Quoting United787 (Reply 27):
Glad to see another carrier at ORD...hopefully all of these carriers at ORD will help push along plans for new terminals...T5 is getting full...

All current long term leases end in 2018 airport wide and it's my understanding that there has been little formal talks regarding a new long term lease agreement between the city and airlines.

New terminals will be a while...

Topic: RE: Hainan Airlines To Start PEK-ORD On Sept 3
Username: jayunited
Posted 2013-01-29 15:53:00 and read 4521 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 28):
Quoting jayunited (Reply 25):
I think there is enough demand in Chicago to support 3x PEK flights for 4 days a week.

Not on paper.

PDEW is mere 265 per day

Not even West Coast gateways of LAX and SFO support 3x daily to PEK.

Obviously you are looking at the wrong paper!!

Look the same thing was said when AA started service to PEK from Chicago and their flight is doing just fine. Im sure HU has done their homework and the PAPER their looking at seems to suggest that there is room for yet another player in this market cause if there wasn't I'm sure they wouldn't waist their time, money and resources launching PEK-ORD-PEK nor do I think that HU will bump AA or UA off this route. However, they are exercising caution which is why they are only flying 4 days a week for starters.

Topic: RE: Hainan Airlines To Start PEK-ORD On Sept 3
Username: thekennady
Posted 2013-01-29 16:24:53 and read 4476 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 28):
Not on paper.

PDEW is mere 265 per day

Not even West Coast gateways of LAX and SFO support 3x daily to PEK.


ORD-PEK is not soley supported by O&D. ORD is a gateway to asia from the midwest, east coast and south. AA and HU will work together and pull traffic through thier networks, filling the plane should not be difficult. Only other markets east of ORD that have service to PEK are DTW, ERW, JFK, and IAD. ORD has more connection options than all of these. ORD-NRT is over 300 pdew and its going to 5 times daily in late june, So ORD-PEK should support 3 carriers to PEK. Cant forget there is cargo to be carried as well.

Topic: RE: Hainan Airlines To Start PEK-ORD On Sept 3
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-01-29 16:32:05 and read 4462 times.

Yes, I'm well aware that AA and UA must rely heavily on connections to make ORD-China work. I see the numbers.

My point is that the ORD market in itself is not a huge one, and yes it will certainly be crowded with 3 players.

Much much larger US-PEK markets on the West Coast do not manage 3x daily flights.

(btw - Chicago-NRT PDEW is 580/day - over twice the size of PEK)

Topic: RE: Hainan Airlines To Start PEK-ORD On Sept 3
Username: IndianicWorld
Posted 2013-01-29 16:39:56 and read 4445 times.

In regards to CX, it seems to have issues with most of the OW members.

Whether it be AA, BA or QF, there isn't exactly a very friendly relationship with any of them. From that perspective, the value it brings to the table is hard to pinpoint, but at present its the best vehicle OW can offer into mainland China, even if the reception other carriers get is less than pleasing.

Anyone know the history of why CX has such a stance? From what I have seen, SQ also has had a similar relationship with the Star alliance in many cases, but even then it seems to have more of a role to play in co-operating.

CX being in OW whilst a major shareholder (CA) is in another alliance is an interesting one. Seems more and more common.

Topic: RE: Hainan Airlines To Start PEK-ORD On Sept 3
Username: davidho1985
Posted 2013-01-29 17:42:02 and read 4378 times.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 33):
CX being in OW whilst a major shareholder (CA) is in another alliance is an interesting one. Seems more and more common.

Perhaps CX know OW needs them (in Asia, esp in China) more than what they need from OW.

Topic: RE: Hainan Airlines To Start PEK-ORD On Sept 3
Username: thekennady
Posted 2013-01-29 18:46:30 and read 4325 times.

Quoting dtfg (Thread starter):
I highly doubt that A330-200 would be able to handle such a route well


The 787 issues should be resolved by sep, the a330 was mentioned for
Pr reasons

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 32):
(btw - Chicago-NRT PDEW is 580/day - over twice the size of PEK)


Thanks...i knew it was large. And cant forget HU may be factoring in future
Growth as well, 4 times weekly is a safe way to start

Topic: RE: Hainan Airlines To Start PEK-ORD On Sept 3
Username: justinlee
Posted 2013-01-30 06:32:46 and read 4041 times.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 26):
This is very true BUT! what kind of possible backing is the Chinese govt. going to give to make sure Hainan won't go bust on the route. Peking (Beijing) isn't very transparent in their dealings and I doubt they'll Not insure Hainan doesn't lose their Shirts.

If you say that to CA, I will agree. But Hainan Airlines is really different. It's not actually state owned, but owned by Hainan provincial government which is on an tropical island, Hainan Island, in South China. HU is strong in Hainan, but it's only an island with 8 million population. It doesn't have a lot of resources on the government side, especially in Beijing. Just see the terminal they got in PEK: T1, the oldest and smallest with limited transportation access. Their competition situation is not good in PEK now. Just think how HA can do if they choose to build a hub in ATL!

Because they can't benefit from a strong hub and government support, what HU can do is to provide high standard service and serve niche market. That's exactly their strategy and they did a good job as the only 5-star carrier in China. HU is really different from other big carriers in China!


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