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Topic: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: enilria
Posted 2013-01-28 08:00:34 and read 9140 times.

INSTRUCTIONS

WHAT IS THIS REPORT?
This compares what is for sale THIS WEEK for the stated period versus what was for sale LAST WEEK...It does NOT compare to last year or now (UNLESS OTHERWISE STATED).

HOW DO I READ IT?
XXX-YYY DEC 4>5 JAN 4>5 ; means that the listed airline changed the frequency between the two airports to add from 4 to 5 roundtrips in December and January. No other months were changed. I only list one direction, although it is possible the listed change is only one way. It is too difficult to average the two directions. I assume the change is roundtrip and that is most often the case.

HOW ARE THE DAILY DEPARTURES CALCULATED?
This report uses total operations for the month listed, divided over the days in the month.

WHAT ARE THE FRACTIONAL FLIGHTS?
Non-daily operations create fractional weekly service. In most cases flights are rounded, but in the case of international service or markets with low frequency, fractions are shown. If a flight operated 5 days out of 7, it would show 0.8 flights.

WHY ARE THERE WEIRD FREQUENCIES AT Macedonian Airlines (Greece)">IN FAR AWAY MONTHS FOR LCCs?
Most airlines publish schedules 11 months in advance. This report covers the next 9 months. That avoids seeing schedules as they are loaded. Several LCCs load their schedules less than 9 months into the future. Their schedules may also end mid-month. If B6 loads their schedule until Jan15, all flights in Janaury will show half frequency because of the way the report is created.

WHY IS A WHOLE AIRLINE'S SCHEDULE SHOWN AS CHANGING FOR A FUTURE MONTH?
Similarly to the previous question, some airlines load their schedule from nothing inside the 9 month window of this report. When their schedule is extended it will show as new service because there was no previous schedule to compare to. In some instances I will show a more valid comparison against another period.

THOSE FLIGHTS AREN'T DELTA, THEY ARE PINNACLE
This report only shows the marketing code. It is too complicated to show all the operators.

THE FREQUENCIES MAY HAVE CHANGED AS YOU SHOW, BUT THE SEATS DIDNT CHANGE BECAUSE OF EQUIPMENT SWAPS
That is a natural weakness of a frequency based report, but it provides something to discuss below.

THE FREQUENCY DOESN'T SHOW A CHANGE, E.G. 4>4
This happens as a result of rounding. There is a change in service that is large enough to be listed, but through rounding it does not appear.

I marked some of the ones I thought were interesting with an "*".

*9W EWR-BRU APR 1.0>1.2 MAY 1.0>2 JUN 1.0>2 JUL 1.0>2
*9W JFK-BRU APR 0>0.2 MAY 0>1.0 JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0

AA ORD-DUS OCT 0.8>1.0
I guess last week was a bonehead mistake by somebody at AA.
*AA SJU-CCS MAR 0>1.0 APR 0>1.0 MAY 0>1.0 JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0 AUG 0>1.0 SEP 0>1.0 OCT 0>1.0

AC CVG-YYZ MAR 1.7>1.5
AC DEN-YYZ MAR 2>1.8
AC MKE-YYZ MAR 1.7>1.5
AC PWM-YYZ MAR 1.7>0 APR 1.7>0

AF IAD-CDG SEP 2>1.6 OCT 1.8>1.5

*AM ORD-MTY MAR 1.0>0.1 APR 1.0>0 MAY 1.0>0 JUN 1.0>0 JUL 1.0>0 AUG 1.0>0 SEP 1.0>0 OCT 1.0>0

AT JFK-CMN OCT 0.8>1.0

*B6 FLL-SJO JUN 0>0.1 JUL 0>1.0 AUG 0>1.0
B6 JFK-CUN APR 3>4 MAY 3>4 JUN 2>3 JUL 2>3 AUG 2>3

BW FLL-POS OCT 1.0>0.8

*CA IAH-PEK JUL 0>0.4 AUG 0>0.5 SEP 0>0.6 OCT 0>0.5

CI ROR-TPE MAR 0.6>0.3 APR 0.6>0.3 MAY 0.6>0.3 JUN 0.6>0.3 JUL 0.6>0.3 AUG 0.6>0.3 SEP 0.5>0.3 OCT 0.6>0.3

*DL ATL-ANC JUN 0>0.3 JUL 0>1.0 AUG 0>1.0
DL ATL-BTR OCT 9>8
*DL ATL-BTV JUN 0>0.8 JUL 0>1.0 AUG 0>1.0 SEP 0>1.0 OCT 0>1.0
DL ATL-CHA SEP 10>9
DL ATL-CUN JUN 6>5
DL ATL-ECP AUG 9>7
*DL ATL-GRB JUN 0>0.7 JUL 0>1.0 AUG 0>1.0 SEP 0>1.0 OCT 0>1.0
DL ATL-GSO SEP 9>8
DL ATL-JAN SEP 7>8 OCT 7>8
DL ATL-TRI SEP 8>7
Season further shortened
*DL ATL-VCE MAY 0.3>0
DL CVG-MDT SEP 1.7>1.0
DL DTW-LEX OCT 5>6
DL DTW-PIT SEP 5>6
DL FLL-MSP SEP 0.1>1.0
DL JFK-YUL JUN 3>2 JUL 3>2 AUG 3>2 SEP 3>2 OCT 3>2
DL LGA-TYS MAY 0.8>1.7 JUN 0.8>1.7 JUL 0.8>1.7 AUG 0.8>1.7 SEP 0.9>1.7 OCT 0.9>1.7
These two routes will be gone soon I bet.
*DL MEM-JAN APR 1.7>1.1 MAY 1.7>0.8 JUN 1.7>0.8 JUL 1.7>0.8 AUG 1.7>0.8 SEP 1.7>0.9 OCT 1.7>0.9
*DL MEM-OKC APR 1.7>1.1 MAY 1.7>0.8 JUN 1.7>0.8 JUL 1.7>0.9 AUG 1.7>0.8 SEP 1.7>0.9 OCT 1.7>0.9
DL MIA-LAX APR 0.9>0.6
DL MSP-TVC OCT 0>1.0
*DL SLC-MSN JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0 AUG 0>1.0 SEP 0>1.0 OCT 0>1.0
DL TPA-CUN AUG 0.2>0

F9 PHL-CUN MAY 0.4>0.3
F9 PHL-PUJ MAY 0.3>0.2

KE DFW-ICN SEP 0.7>1.0 OCT 0.7>1.0
KE GUM-ICN JUL 1.0>1.2 AUG 1.0>1.6

M5 BFI-ESD JUN 1.0>2 JUL 1.0>2 AUG 1.0>2 SEP 1.0>2
M5 BFI-FRD JUN 2>4 JUL 2>4 AUG 2>4 SEP 2>4

MW HNL-MKK MAR 6>7 APR 6>7 MAY 6>7 JUN 6>7 JUL 6>7 AUG 6>7
MW KOA-OGG APR 15>14 MAY 15>14 JUL 15>14
MW MKK-HNL MAR 6>7 APR 6>7 MAY 6>7 JUN 6>7 JUL 6>7 AUG 6>7
MW MKK-OGG MAR 6>7 APR 6>7 MAY 6>7 JUN 6>7 JUL 6>7 AUG 6>7
MW OGG-KOA APR 15>14 MAY 15>14 JUL 15>14
MW OGG-MKK MAR 6>7 APR 6>7 MAY 6>7 JUN 6>7 JUL 6>7 AUG 6>7

One carrier, two carriers, no carriers, LOL...
*NK AZA-DEN MAY 1.0>0 JUN 1.0>0 JUL 1.0>0 AUG 1.0>0 SEP 1.0>0 OCT 1.0>0
More F9 pressure
*NK DEN-MSP MAY 0>1.0 JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0 AUG 0>1.0 SEP 0>1.0 OCT 0>1.0
More FLL shrinking
*NK FLL-NAS MAY 0.3>0 JUN 1.0>0 JUL 1.0>0 AUG 1.0>0

OZ SPN-PUS APR 0.3>0.6 MAY 0.3>0.6 JUN 0.3>0.6 JUL 0.3>0.5 AUG 0.3>0.6 SEP 0.3>0.6 OCT 0.3>0.5

P1 SJU-PUJ JUL 0>0.4

SV IAD-JED APR 0.4>0.6 MAY 0.5>0.6 JUN 0.4>0.6 JUL 0.4>0.5 AUG 0.5>0.6 SEP 0.4>0.6 OCT 0.3>0.5
SV JFK-JED APR 0.7>0.6 MAY 0.7>0.6 JUN 0.7>0.6 JUL 0.7>0.6 AUG 0.7>0.6 SEP 0.7>0.6
SV JFK-RUH APR 0.1>0.4 MAY 0.2>0.4 JUN 0.1>0.4 JUL 0.1>0.4 AUG 0.2>0.4 SEP 0.1>0.4 OCT 0.1>0.4
SY MSP-SAN JUL 0>0.9 AUG 0>0.8

TA LAX-GUA JUL 0>0.4 AUG 0.0>0.5
TA ORD-GUA JUL 0.5>0.6 AUG 0.4>0.5

TJ SJU-SBH JUN 1.3>0.7 JUL 1.2>0.7 AUG 1.3>0.7 SEP 1.3>0.7 OCT 1.2>0.7

TN LAX-CDG APR 0.7>0.5

UA DEN-CUN JUN 0.7>1.0 JUL 0.7>1.0
UA DEN-FCA JUL 2>4 AUG 1.8>4 SEP 1.0>2 OCT 1.0>2
UA DEN-GTF SEP 1.7>3
UA DEN-GUC JUL 1.0>2.0 AUG 1.0>1.8
UA DEN-HDN JUL 2>3 AUG 2>3
UA DEN-IDA JUL 3>4 AUG 3>4
UA DEN-JAC AUG 3>4 SEP 2>3 OCT 2>3
UA DEN-MCO SEP 3>2 OCT 3>2
UA DEN-MSO SEP 3>4 OCT 3>4
UA DEN-MTJ JUL 3>4 AUG 3>4
UA DEN-SJD JUL 0.1>0.4 AUG 0.1>0.3
UA DEN-TPA SEP 1.7>1.0 OCT 1.7>1.0
UA DEN-TUS SEP 5>3 OCT 5>3
UA DEN-YVR SEP 2>3
UA EWR-ANU JUL 0.5>0.4
UA EWR-BDA JUN 1.3>1.1 JUL 1.4>1.1 AUG 1.4>1.1
UA EWR-BQN AUG 0.9>0.8
UA EWR-CUN AUG 1.5>3
UA EWR-GUA JUN 0.2>0.3 JUL 0.1>0.3 AUG 0.2>0.3
*UA EWR-LIR JUN 0.9>0.3 JUL 1.0>0.3 AUG 1.0>0.3 SEP 1.0>0.3 OCT 1.0>0.3
UA EWR-NAS JUL 2>1.5 AUG 1.3>1.1
UA EWR-POS JUL 1.0>0.7
UA EWR-PVR JUL 0.1>0.3
UA EWR-SAP JUL 0.1>0.3 AUG 0.2>0.3
UA IAD-AUA JUL 0.3>0.1
UA IAD-CUN AUG 0.4>0.5
UA IAD-PUJ JUL 0.1>0.3
UA IAH-ACA JUL 1.0>0.7 OCT 0.8>0.5
UA IAH-BON JUL 0.3>0.1
Hmm...I wonder if they expect B6 to announce.
*UA IAH-BOS JUN 5>6 JUL 4>6 AUG 4>6
UA IAH-GCM JUL 1.0>1.1
UA IAH-MTY AUG 8>9
UA IAH-SAP JUL 2>1.4 AUG 1.5>1.3
UA IAH-SJD JUL 1.9>3 AUG 1.9>3
UA LAX-CUN AUG 0.5>0.8 SEP 0.1>0.4 OCT 0.1>0.4
UA LAX-GDL SEP 1.0>0.7 OCT 1.0>0.7
UA LGA-AUA JUL 0>0.1
UA ORD-ALB JUN 5>4
UA ORD-BDL JUN 5>6 JUL 5>6 AUG 5>6
UA ORD-BIL JUN 0>0.8
UA ORD-BTV JUN 4>5 JUL 4>5 AUG 4>5
UA ORD-BUF JUN 6>8 JUL 6>8 AUG 6>8
UA ORD-BWI JUN 6>5 JUL 6>5 AUG 6>5
UA ORD-CMH JUL 7>8 AUG 7>8
UA ORD-DAY JUN 7>8 JUL 7>8
UA ORD-DSM JUN 6>7 JUL 6>7 AUG 6>7
UA ORD-EWR JUN 15>16 JUL 16>17 AUG 15>16
UA ORD-FLL JUN 1.0>1.8 JUL 1.0>2
UA ORD-GRR JUN 6>7 JUL 6>7 AUG 6>7
UA ORD-MCI JUN 8>9 JUL 8>9 AUG 8>9
UA ORD-MDT JUN 6>5 JUL 6>5 AUG 6>5
UA ORD-MHT JUN 3>2.0 JUL 3>2
UA ORD-OKC JUN 5>4 JUL 5>4 AUG 5>4
UA ORD-PHX JUL 3>2
UA ORD-PWM JUL 3>4 AUG 3>4
UA ORD-RAP JUN 3>2.0
UA ORD-SAN JUN 5>4 JUL 5>4
UA ORD-SAT JUN 3>4 JUL 3>4 AUG 3>4
UA ORD-SAV JUN 4>3 JUL 4>3 AUG 4>3
UA ORD-SDF JUN 5>6 JUL 5>6 AUG 5>6
UA ORD-SJD JUL 0.1>0.3
UA ORD-SYR JUL 5>6
UA ORD-TVC JUL 4>5
SFO-Mexico cutbacks
UA SFO-CUN APR 1.0>0.8 MAY 1.0>0.7 JUN 1.0>0.5 JUL 1.0>0.5 AUG 0.9>0.4 OCT 1.0>0.4
UA SFO-GDL JUL 1.0>0.3 AUG 1.0>0.7 SEP 1.0>0.7
UA SFO-PVR APR 1.1>0.8 MAY 1.1>0.7 JUN 1.2>0.5 JUL 1.1>0.5 AUG 1.1>0.8 SEP 0.7>0.3 OCT 1.1>0.5
UA SFO-SJD SEP 0.8>0.9

US CLT-GRU MAY 0.9>0 JUN 1.0>0.8
Response to NK?
*US PHL-MYR APR 0.7>1.7 MAY 0.2>1.2 JUN 0.2>1.2 JUL 0.1>1.1 AUG 0.2>1.2 SEP 0.1>1.1 OCT 0.1>1.1
US PHX-HNL SEP 1.6>1.5
US PHX-KOA SEP 0.6>0.4
US PHX-LIH SEP 0.7>0.6
*US PHX-YEG MAY 2>1.7 JUN 2>1.0 JUL 2>1.0 AUG 2>1.0 SEP 2>1.0
*US PHX-YYC MAY 2>1.7 JUN 2>1.0

VR BOS-RAI AUG 0.4>0.5

VS MCO-LGW APR 2>1.9 JUN 1.9>1.8

WP HNL-KOA MAR 0.5>0
WP HNL-LNY MAR 4>3
WP HNL-OGG MAR 4>3
WP KOA-HNL MAR 0.5>0
WP LNY-HNL MAR 6>5
WP OGG-HNL MAR 4>3

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: STT757
Posted 2013-01-28 08:15:11 and read 9066 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):

*9W EWR-BRU APR 1.0>1.2 MAY 1.0>2 JUN 1.0>2 JUL 1.0>2

Where does that 2nd flight continue on to? Shows the size of the New Jersey-India market. That makes five daily flights to India from EWR.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: enilria
Posted 2013-01-28 08:19:37 and read 9019 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*9W EWR-BRU APR 1.0>1.2 MAY 1.0>2 JUN 1.0>2 JUL 1.0>2
*9W JFK-BRU APR 0>0.2 MAY 0>1.0 JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0
Quoting STT757 (Reply 1):
Where does that 2nd flight continue on to? Shows the size of the New Jersey-India market. That makes five daily flights to India from EWR.

True, but it is just an airport shift. Don't know the through point. BOM?

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2013-01-28 08:52:43 and read 8844 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*DL SLC-MSN JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0 AUG 0>1.0 SEP 0>1.0 OCT 0>1.0

So there will be service from Madison to SLC but zero flights to Milwaukee. That must be a such a major hole for the MKE business community not to have a SLC link especially if Delta keeps building elites.

for random dates i saw CRJ-700
MSN-SLC 6:30pm- 8:40pm
SLC-MSN 2:00pm-5:55pm

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2013-01-28 09:00:51 and read 8795 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*DL MEM-OKC APR 1.7>1.1 MAY 1.7>0.8 JUN 1.7>0.8 JUL 1.7>0.9 AUG 1.7>0.8 SEP 1.7>0.9 OCT 1.7>0.9

Increase of mainline to ATL makes MEM completely pointless these days. It won't be missed.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: rivervisual
Posted 2013-01-28 09:01:19 and read 8798 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 2):
True, but it is just an airport shift. Don't know the through point. BOM?

it actually looks like additional service as opposed to an airport shift.

EWR goes from MAY 1.0>2

JFK goes from MAY 0>1.0

so from 1 daily NYC-BRU to 3 daily NYC-BRU

seems like a lot so may be a filing error??

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-28 09:17:05 and read 8705 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
UA IAH-ACA JUL 1.0>0.7 OCT 0.8>0.5
UA IAH-BON JUL 0.3>0.1
Hmm...I wonder if they expect B6 to announce.
*UA IAH-BOS JUN 5>6 JUL 4>6 AUG 4>6
UA IAH-GCM JUL 1.0>1.1
UA IAH-MTY AUG 8>9
UA IAH-SAP JUL 2>1.4 AUG 1.5>1.3
UA IAH-SJD JUL 1.9>3 AUG 1.9>3

IAH-PTY,IAH-BOS, IAH-GCM, and IAH-SJD have gone up in frequency, This is some good news for IAH.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-01-28 09:25:34 and read 8651 times.

Quoting AVENSAB727 (Reply 6):

IAH-PTY,IAH-BOS, IAH-GCM, and IAH-SJD have gone up in frequency, This is some good news for IAH.

They're all flat year over year.

Quoting rivervisual (Reply 5):
seems like a lot so may be a filing error??

That's my guess.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: flyguy1
Posted 2013-01-28 09:27:44 and read 8646 times.

So Jet is resuming JFK?

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-28 09:32:16 and read 8604 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):

But an new frequency is good for the paying customer. More options.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: wn676
Posted 2013-01-28 09:44:02 and read 8530 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*US PHX-YEG MAY 2>1.7 JUN 2>1.0 JUL 2>1.0 AUG 2>1.0 SEP 2>1.0
*US PHX-YYC MAY 2>1.7 JUN 2>1.0

Not all that surprising, up until 2011 US to YYC and YEG were all Express during the summer and I believe at 2x and 1x, respectively. Winter is really the high season for those markets.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: ScottB
Posted 2013-01-28 09:58:21 and read 8434 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 1):
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):

*9W EWR-BRU APR 1.0>1.2 MAY 1.0>2 JUN 1.0>2 JUL 1.0>2

Where does that 2nd flight continue on to? Shows the size of the New Jersey-India market.

Jet operates a scissor hub at BRU, so presumably they're adding another flight to BOM or DEL? Unless it's a filing error.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
UA ORD-PHX JUL 3>2

I realize they can put connecting passengers on the US code share, but only two daily UA metal round-trips in a market as large as Chicago-Phoenix?

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
These two routes will be gone soon I bet.
*DL MEM-JAN APR 1.7>1.1 MAY 1.7>0.8 JUN 1.7>0.8 JUL 1.7>0.8 AUG 1.7>0.8 SEP 1.7>0.9 OCT 1.7>0.9
*DL MEM-OKC APR 1.7>1.1 MAY 1.7>0.8 JUN 1.7>0.8 JUL 1.7>0.9 AUG 1.7>0.8 SEP 1.7>0.9 OCT 1.7>0.9

IIRC the DFW hub was quite a bit bigger than MEM currently is just before DFW was de-hubbed. I suppose the availability of the two-class CR9 for routes like PHL/BOS/DEN/PHX helps.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: enilria
Posted 2013-01-28 10:08:24 and read 8368 times.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 4):
Increase of mainline to ATL makes MEM completely pointless these days. It won't be missed.

or the whole hub...

Quoting rivervisual (Reply 5):
Quoting enilria (Reply 2):
True, but it is just an airport shift. Don't know the through point. BOM?

it actually looks like additional service as opposed to an airport shift.

My mistake, but agreed that it is now pretty weird. I wonder how it will shake out.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 11):
IIRC the DFW hub was quite a bit bigger than MEM currently is just before DFW was de-hubbed. I suppose the availability of the two-class CR9 for routes like PHL/BOS/DEN/PHX helps.

I wonder what the bank structure is like now? Do they have 3 banks now or is it just a collection of junk randomly timed?

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2013-01-28 10:09:12 and read 8371 times.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 3):
So there will be service from Madison to SLC but zero flights to Milwaukee. That must be a such a major hole for the MKE business community not to have a SLC link especially if Delta keeps building elites.

There a few very companies in MSN that provide DL with a lot of their business. I would not be surprised if they are the ones specifically asking for better west coast connectivity.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: COflyerBOS
Posted 2013-01-28 10:17:11 and read 8318 times.

Quoting AVENSAB727 (Reply 9):

They are NOT new frequencies. These are routine seasonal adjustments.

In fact, if you take off your IAH blinders, you'd see that BOS service at 4 times daily at any time of year is a reduction. CO used to serve that route 5 times daily during the leaner months and 6 times during the peak season.

Also, it's MTY (Monterrey) not Panama City getting the additional flight. Mostly likely just another ERJ.

ORD got quite the boost. Looks like a +9 in flights. ORD is likely the biggest UA hub now so hopefully they'll stop with all the "IAH is still the biggest hub" nonsense.

Avensa, you really need to stop with your constant Rah-Rah IAH bit. We've seen an overall REDUCTION in service since the merger. Numerous cities have been dropped. Available seats are also down. There's no way to spin it otherwise.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-28 10:21:31 and read 8289 times.

Quoting COflyerBOS (Reply 14):

And I dont see that ORD is the biggest hub for UA anywhere else, if ORD did reclaim the crown, I think it would be in the news. CO is gone now, but IAH is still UAs most profitable hub. UA has added frequencies to many routes out of IAH. CDG was an underperforming route, and UA cut what was not profitable. They just used WN and HOU expansion as a cover. As long as it says the IAH is the largest hub in the system everywhere else than it is still the largest hub.

[Edited 2013-01-28 10:26:53] And you are not United, and unless UA says that IAH is not the largest hub anymore, I'll believe it.

[Edited 2013-01-28 10:29:46]

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: drerx7
Posted 2013-01-28 10:39:56 and read 8170 times.

Quoting AVENSAB727 (Reply 15):
And I dont see that ORD is the biggest hub for UA anywhere else, if ORD did reclaim the crown, I think it would be in the news.

It would not make the news. Crunch the numbers...I would not be surprised to see Chicago being the larger hub of the two.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-28 10:42:13 and read 8156 times.

If that is the case, IAH would be number 2.

[Edited 2013-01-28 10:44:48] Anyway, I think IAH could see expansion from UA in the future.

[Edited 2013-01-28 10:47:03]
I am going to drop my IAH ra ra bit, But I think IAH is in great shape with the new UA.


[Edited 2013-01-28 10:51:57]
I think the reduction of service was going to happen with the merger, but I think this was UA cutting the "fat."


[Edited 2013-01-28 10:58:38]

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: awacsooner
Posted 2013-01-28 11:19:55 and read 8008 times.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 4):
Increase of mainline to ATL makes MEM completely pointless these days. It won't be missed.

It will the days where ATL is either ATC or weather delayed...which is a LOT!


That being said...I'm still amazed no one notices when NK cuts a route at FLL, but praises them for their huge expansions out west. Mark my words, LAS and DFW will share the same fate as FLL...

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: MSPNWA
Posted 2013-01-28 11:20:51 and read 8008 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
More F9 pressure
*NK DEN-MSP MAY 0>1.0 JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0 AUG 0>1.0 SEP 0>1.0 OCT 0>1.0

Woah, two things. First, MSP-DEN is even more of a bloodbath. And two, NK is making inroads at MSP.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-01-28 11:24:47 and read 7982 times.

Quoting AVENSAB727 (Reply 15):
CDG was an underperforming route, and UA cut what was not profitable. They just used WN and HOU expansion as a cover

You don't find it odd that of all the cuts from all the hubs they needed "cover" for IAH? Who even believes that? What about IADACC; what was the 'cover' for that?

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-28 11:27:53 and read 7962 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 20):

UA made a mistake either way. They should have just cut the routes.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: enilria
Posted 2013-01-28 11:29:54 and read 7940 times.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 19):
Woah, two things. First, MSP-DEN is even more of a bloodbath. And two, NK is making inroads at MSP.

I think the NK AZA-DEN flight was spent just to screw F9 and now they are moving it to MSP in hopes of doing the same. I don't think the route makes long term sense for NK unless F9 shuts the DEN "hub". Further, it's ULCC cat and mouse with NK clearly reacting to F9 dubbing themselves an LCC. I'm wondering if DL will respond to F9's CVG and TTN moves.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: point2point
Posted 2013-01-28 11:44:05 and read 7867 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
UA DEN-CUN JUN 0.7>1.0 JUL 0.7>1.0
UA DEN-FCA JUL 2>4 AUG 1.8>4 SEP 1.0>2 OCT 1.0>2
UA DEN-GTF SEP 1.7>3
UA DEN-GUC JUL 1.0>2.0 AUG 1.0>1.8
UA DEN-HDN JUL 2>3 AUG 2>3
UA DEN-IDA JUL 3>4 AUG 3>4
UA DEN-JAC AUG 3>4 SEP 2>3 OCT 2>3
UA DEN-MCO SEP 3>2 OCT 3>2
UA DEN-MSO SEP 3>4 OCT 3>4
UA DEN-MTJ JUL 3>4 AUG 3>4
UA DEN-SJD JUL 0.1>0.4 AUG 0.1>0.3
UA DEN-TPA SEP 1.7>1.0 OCT 1.7>1.0
UA DEN-TUS SEP 5>3 OCT 5>3
UA DEN-YVR SEP 2>3

Between yesterday's OAG's Changes post, and now this one here today, at least in basic numbers, UA appears to be giving DEN a lot of attention and adding some 14-15 flights in total between these two posts for this arriving summer/early autumn season. The $22M rent reduction (if we can call it that) DEN management gave UA seems to be paying off, and the icing on the cake being DEN-NRT - if these 787s can get up in the air again.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
One carrier, two carriers, no carriers, LOL...
*NK AZA-DEN MAY 1.0>0 JUN 1.0>0 JUL 1.0>0 AUG 1.0>0 SEP 1.0>0 OCT 1.0>0

Oy vey....... well, the F9 nonstop is supposedly seasonal, so maybe F9's seasonal departure will not be as long as anticipated now?

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
More F9 pressure
*NK DEN-MSP MAY 0>1.0 JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0 AUG 0>1.0 SEP 0>1.0 OCT 0>1.0

So now along with DTW, DEN-MSP will have 5 carriers competing on this route...... wow........ although from the RITA data, DEN has been the airport with the most pax to/from MSP this year.


 

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-01-28 11:59:09 and read 7784 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*DL SLC-MSN JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0 AUG 0>1.0 SEP 0>1.0 OCT 0>1.0

Hopefully DL sees how well F9 and UA are doing in DEN and will add GRR-SLC.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: TVNWZ
Posted 2013-01-28 12:00:03 and read 7932 times.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 3):
So there will be service from Madison to SLC but zero flights to Milwaukee. That must be a such a major hole for the MKE business community not to have a SLC link especially if Delta keeps building elites.

MKE-SLC has always been problematic for DL. Most business connections can be made through MSP .

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: enilria
Posted 2013-01-28 12:27:49 and read 7838 times.

Quoting point2point (Reply 23):
and the icing on the cake being DEN-NRT - if these 787s can get up in the air again.

I wonder if DEN will let them out of the ASM requirement in that rent deal if the 787 ain't flying?

Quoting point2point (Reply 23):
Oy vey....... well, the F9 nonstop is supposedly seasonal, so maybe F9's seasonal departure will not be as long as anticipated now?

If they both left it must have been awful. Not sure either is eager to try it again.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-28 12:31:14 and read 7903 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 26):

I wonder that as well. If they use a 777 on the route temporarily, I wonder if DEN will be ok with that.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2013-01-28 12:37:50 and read 7883 times.

Quoting COflyerBOS (Reply 14):
ORD got quite the boost. Looks like a +9 in flights. ORD is likely the biggest UA hub now so hopefully they'll stop with all the "IAH is still the biggest hub" nonsense.
Quoting COflyerBOS (Reply 14):
Avensa, you really need to stop with your constant Rah-Rah IAH bit. We've seen an overall REDUCTION in service since the merger. Numerous cities have been dropped. Available seats are also down. There's no way to spin it otherwise.
Quoting drerx7 (Reply 16):
It would not make the news. Crunch the numbers...I would not be surprised to see Chicago being the larger hub of the two.
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 20):
You don't find it odd that of all the cuts from all the hubs they needed "cover" for IAH? Who even believes that?

Look, the IAH whining needs to be put to an end. This has gotten ridiculous. Every other UA thread seems to get hijacked into a Houston sob-fest.

I've entered the numbers below for W12/13 and S13. What you'll notice is that the hub size varies depending on season. Right now, IAH remains #1 in the UA network based on seats offered, ASKs and frequencies. During the summer months, Chicago will out-edge IAH, but only SLIGHTLY.

This is largely due to the fact that UA ramps up a lot of its seasonal operations for the summer months out of the ORD hub to markets that cannot support year-round service out of Chicago and up-gauges some of the widebody routes to accommodate for the busy travel season. Let's be truthful here: the UA network out of ORD is much more geographically well-positioned to capture traffic from the Central, South and West to Europe over Houston. ORD also flies nonstop to a few more European cities on UA metal (MUC, CDG, BRU, SNN) in addition to Star partners (CPH, ARN, ZRH, WAW, VIE, DUS) than what's available at Houston.

Let's look at the actual data for this week to see what's going on with UA in its hubs:

Week of January 28-Feb 1

Chicago:

Seats: 622,744

ASKs: 1,141,820,212

Frequency (To/From): 7,012

Houston

Seats: 671,953

ASKs: 1,269,111,491

Frequency (To/From): 7,107


Week of July 8-July 14

Chicago:

Seats: 746,875

ASKs: 1,251,180,871

Frequency (To/From): 8,789

Houston

Seats: 745,162

ASKs: 1,425,648,623

Frequency (To/From): 8,294

So yes, the IAH hub has been parred down a bit for the summer, but point blank, it is BARELY out-edged by ORD, and likely for only a few months. It's reality. Just accept it. It's the nature of the industry and United is headed for trouble if they're not able to recoup the large chunk of corporate traffic they've lost in this merger disaster. This isn't the time to be whining about some silly unprofitable flight to Paris that was cut.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: tommy767
Posted 2013-01-28 12:46:34 and read 7801 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
DL MIA-LAX APR 0.9>0.6

ooo, anyone find this a little odd?

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 16):
It would not make the news. Crunch the numbers...I would not be surprised to see Chicago being the larger hub of the two.

hah, Yeah big whoop. I remember saying last year don't be surprised to see ORD and IAH bounce back and forth as the largest hub for UA. IAH is a great hub, but for east west connections in the northeast and midwest, it makes more sense to connect people through the ORD (obviously sunbelt cities benefit more from IAH on east west connections).

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-28 13:24:45 and read 7648 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 28):

Thanks for the info, kind of proves what I was trying to say.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: enilria
Posted 2013-01-28 13:32:45 and read 7683 times.

Quoting AVENSAB727 (Reply 27):
I wonder that as well. If they use a 777 on the route temporarily, I wonder if DEN will be ok with that.

DEN would happily take a 777, but UA claimed to DEN that a 777 couldn't make it for years because of a "wheel speed" issue (not enough lift at max wheel speed due to thin atmosphere), so they'd have egg on their face if they put it in there.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 28):
Look, the IAH whining needs to be put to an end. This has gotten ridiculous. Every other UA thread seems to get hijacked into a Houston sob-fest.

Frankly, it's UA who has acted childishly. I've watched this industry for a long long time and never seen anything like it.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-01-28 13:34:50 and read 7640 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 28):
Look, the IAH whining needs to be put to an end. This has gotten ridiculous. Every other UA thread seems to get hijacked into a Houston sob-fest.

It really has nothing to do with IAH's relative size or what they've lost/gained--scratch that, *not* gained. It's about literally handing over a major hub to the competition. Mind you this is over five years:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...-lag-chicago-mover.html?cmpid=yhoo

"McKenzie did a five-year pricing study and found that domestic fares in Denver and San Francisco have increased just 10 percent and 18 percent respectively, while other hubs such as Houston and Chicago had increases of 40 percent and 28 percent over the same period. "

40% increase in fares over 5 years, outpacing ORD/SFO/DEN, and yet UA can't find anything to add in IAH. Odd.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: point2point
Posted 2013-01-28 13:50:44 and read 7548 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 26):
If they both left it must have been awful. Not sure either is eager to try it again.

One would think that with an average of some 2800 pax daily traffic between DEN and PHX and how many planes from UA, US, WN and F9 flying between the two, that there would be at least one daily plane-full of pax that would find it more convenient to route with DEN-AZA.....?

Oh well, such is the likes of the airline game, eh?

 

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-28 13:55:31 and read 7576 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 31):

A serious mistake by United.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 32):

SFO is also a focus city for AA as well. SFO has not seen any new routes as of late(except for CDG) so IAH is not alone.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2013-01-28 14:12:35 and read 7471 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 31):
Frankly, it's UA who has acted childishly. I've watched this industry for a long long time and never seen anything like it.

Oh, I completely agree. But equally obnoxious are the tantrums that the IAH loyalists love to throw on these forums at whim's notice. I get it, I would be bitter as well and frankly, UA has obviously not done much to 'win back' their loyalties because reliability has suffered. Still, you can't fault the airline for implementing necessary capacity guidance measures in order to stay profitable.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 32):
It's about literally handing over a major hub to the competition. Mind you this is over five years:

The article you have cited is crap.

First of all, I have no idea who nor what the Buckingham Research Group is that you've quoted here as your source, nor how reliable their data is. It sounds all relative to me. It doesn't even scale what "rating" system it used in its methodology and what they define as "neutral" within the entire process. Definition of poor journalism at its finest.

Denver and SFO have indeed been impacted by LCC infiltration which have kept fares competitive, that I will agree with, but it is laughable that this "analyst" used this mere data to conclude that these two hubs are dragging down profit margins. No mentioning of yields, revenue performance, nor profit margins. Simply, average fare increases.

That's like marking a dot on a piece of paper and saying you've drawn a triangle.

What's even MORE laughable is the VX example mentioned. Obviously Virgin is five times larger now than in 2008 - it was barely a year old back then!!! Do you know how much of the market share VX commands at SFO right now?

A whopping 9.2%. WOW.

Guess how much UA commands at SFO? 45.1%.

So while VX is five times larger at SFO today than it was 5 years ago, UA is still five times larger than VX is now at SF.

Completely throws this articles' credibility out the window.

And what competition is UA handing over the traffic to at IAH??? UA controls 84.9% of the market share in IAH!!!!!

Finally, UA has cut system capacity 20% over the past five years because the industry was at OVER capacity. Mind you, five years ago is pre-economic crisis, pre mega-mergers, pre checked luggage fees, essentially en ENTIRELY different landscape than it is today. "A deeper retrenchment than its peers" says nothing substantive. Every carrier has scaled back. UA's overall reduction numbers are OBVIOUSLY going to be the largest of all US legacies because it merged to become the largest airline in the world and the data is going to reflect that.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: apodino
Posted 2013-01-28 14:24:18 and read 7402 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 35):
ow.

And what competition is UA handing over the traffic to at IAH??? UA controls 84.9% of the market share in IAH!!!!!

Is this even fair to say with most of the competition in the Houston market focusing over at HOU? I am not trying to nitpick, but sometimes we get in the trap of looking at a specific airport, rather than the market as a whole, which is often served by more than one airport.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2013-01-28 14:24:23 and read 7421 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 32):
40% increase in fares over 5 years, outpacing ORD/SFO/DEN, and yet UA can't find anything to add in IAH. Odd.

I'll say this one final time: pmCO had THREE domestic US hubs before the merger. IAH did not have to contend with the presence of DEN and IAH within a 1,000 mi radius serving largely similar functions as connecting hubs (NSWE). Post-merger, the network had to be optimized in order to protect yields. With DEN and ORD now in the picture, the IAH hub was bloated and needed to be trimmed.

I don't see why it is so difficult to realize this.

Quoting AVENSAB727 (Reply 34):
SFO is also a focus city for AA as well. SFO has not seen any new routes as of late(except for CDG) so IAH is not alone.

SFO is not a focus city for American. LAX is the one you're thinking of. AA only flies to the cornerstone hubs from SFO and is the #4 carrier behind VX and WN holding #2 and #3, respectively.

Regardless, if the SFO hub was performing as badly as the unreliable article claims, then it would have been mentioned by now in the press. Never in my 10+ years of following industry trends and data has that idea even remotely come across as plausible.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2013-01-28 14:25:44 and read 7450 times.

Quoting AVENSAB727 (Reply 34):
SFO is also a focus city for AA as well.

Oh really? Hasn't AA cut BOS, STL, HNL and OGG from SFO the past few years? SFO seems to only be spoke. The only routes served from SFO are the cornerstone (or whatever it's called) hubs for AA: ORD, JFK, DFW, MIA and LAX. Those are exactly the same routes that AA serves from SEA, except that LAX is covered by code-share.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-28 14:27:20 and read 7384 times.

Oh my bad, thanks for the correction.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: ScottB
Posted 2013-01-28 14:34:31 and read 7378 times.

Quoting point2point (Reply 23):
Between yesterday's OAG's Changes post, and now this one here today, at least in basic numbers, UA appears to be giving DEN a lot of attention and adding some 14-15 flights in total between these two posts for this arriving summer/early autumn season. The $22M rent reduction (if we can call it that) DEN management gave UA seems to be paying off, and the icing on the cake being DEN-NRT - if these 787s can get up in the air again.

Though the NUMBER of UA flights at DEN is increasing, I expect that ASM's are actually near-flat. It takes several Q400's/CRJ's/CR7's on short routes like GUC/MTJ/HDN/JAC/IDA to make up for the cuts on mainline equipment to MCO & TPA. And much of this offers little benefit to Denver-area travelers as the vast majority of traffic on the new flights will be connecting (i.e. very few aside from non-revs would fly DEN-HDN/DEN-GUC/DEN-MTJ). If anything, it may crowd out Denver-area customers as UA flows more connections to the smaller markets over DEN, thus making fewer seats available for Denver O&D.

Quoting enilria (Reply 31):
Frankly, it's UA who has acted childishly. I've watched this industry for a long long time and never seen anything like it.

   It's all quite bizarre IMO. How much positive brand equity from CO have Smisek and company just flushed down the toilet since the merger? I think at this point that many in Houston are ready to say good riddance to them.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 28):
This isn't the time to be whining about some silly unprofitable flight to Paris that was cut.

It seems bizarre to me that IAH-CDG would have been flown for over 20 years by CO and its successor if it had been silly & unprofitable; moreover, I'm surprised that it survived the depths of the Great Recession in 2008-2010 after CO exited SkyTeam in October of 2009. And instead they chose to add SFO-CDG -- a route with less potential feed which had already failed in the past for United, and in which AF has a long-established presence?

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 28):
Let's be truthful here: the UA network out of ORD is much more geographically well-positioned to capture traffic from the Central, South and West to Europe over Houston.

Absolutely -- but IAH is better positioned to flow traffic to & from Latin America, a region which has seen far more robust traffic growth over the past several years than Europe which remains mired in recession. And they're reducing a hub in a metro area with 5.8% unemployment in favor of a hub in a metro area with 8.3% unemployment?

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: ScottB
Posted 2013-01-28 14:47:52 and read 7299 times.

Quoting point2point (Reply 33):
One would think that with an average of some 2800 pax daily traffic between DEN and PHX and how many planes from UA, US, WN and F9 flying between the two, that there would be at least one daily plane-full of pax that would find it more convenient to route with DEN-AZA.....?

There almost certainly is, but location of the airport is not the only factor driving the purchase decision. If there's only one flight a day in a market like DEN-AZA, then the vastly superior schedule offered at Sky Harbor will trump convenience for the fraction of the metro area closer to AZA, especially if the prices are equal or nearly so. G4 makes AZA work largely because they offer non-stops from markets which are generally not served non-stop from PHX -- and budget-minded vacationers don't really care quite as much which Phoenix-area airport they use as long as they can get to their hotel/resort in the rental car.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-01-28 14:48:30 and read 7310 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 35):
And what competition is UA handing over the traffic to at IAH??? UA controls 84.9% of the market share in IAH!!!!!
HOU However it's also a network industry, so also DFW and to a lesser extent ATL, etc

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 37):
With DEN and ORD now in the picture, the IAH hub was bloated and needed to be trimmed.

That's a nice narrative, but it doesn't fit the recent history at all. If that were true, wouldn't they have started the wind-down soon after the merger, and not after a local spat? For chrissakes even CLE has grown--why hasn't that been trimmed in favor of IAD/ORD? Why didn't UA draw down ORD when it was suing the city? Surely DEN/IAD could have picked up the traffic?

Quoting ScottB (Reply 40):
Absolutely -- but IAH is better positioned to flow traffic to & from Latin America, a region which has seen far more robust traffic growth over the past several years than Europe which remains mired in recession. And they're reducing a hub in a metro area with 5.8% unemployment in favor of a hub in a metro area with 8.3% unemployment?

   Follow the money (and the jobs). All the other carriers are.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 35):
First of all, I have no idea who nor what the Buckingham Research Group is that you've quoted here as your source, nor how reliable their data is. It sounds all relative to me.

They cover UA. Of course it's all relative, but combined with the rest of the economic and capacity data, it should be a surprise to no one that Texas has some of the strongest growth in the industry. That's fair to say whether or not you believe their data.

[Edited 2013-01-28 14:50:47]

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-28 14:54:49 and read 7271 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 42):

Every situation was different, ORD is where UA was based at, so it would not have made sense to draw down ORD. WN's HOU expansion was the perfect cover for those cuts.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2013-01-28 15:00:14 and read 7248 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 40):
It seems bizarre to me that IAH-CDG would have been flown for over 20 years by CO and its successor if it had been silly & unprofitable; moreover, I'm surprised that it survived the depths of the Great Recession in 2008-2010 after CO exited SkyTeam in October of 2009. And instead they chose to add SFO-CDG -- a route with less potential feed which had already failed in the past for United, and in which AF has a long-established presence?

Several reasons.

First of all, IAH-CDG was not served for "over 20 years." It was 15 - it started in 1997.

Secondly, CO and AF had a longstanding partnership and codeshare agreement that aided the flight. This, of course, was strengthened when CO joined SkyTeam in 2004. For a period, AF even operated 2x daily flights, in addition to CO, on the IAH-CDG sector.

When CO left SkyTeam, the situation changed, but CO held onto the flight. When UA merged with CO, the need to serve IAH-CDG became redundant since CDG is already connected to three other US hubs: ORD, EWR and IAD. The economic environment in Europe right now isn't all that great. Moreover, the yields on the IAH-CDG flight sucked. There was no point to hold onto a glamour route inherited from pmCO if it wasn't pulling its weight.

SFO-CDG was pulled in 2005 and it wouldn't surprise me if it is pulled again. AF is indeed very entrenched in SFO, and XL Airways also operated a summer seasonal flight to San Fran last year, which UA will have to contend with. Perhaps UA feels that its loyalty base in San Fran will flock to this new service and benefit from having a nonstop West Coast connection to France, but it is questionable whether the yields will allow this flight to be sustainable.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-01-28 15:02:00 and read 7256 times.

Quoting AVENSAB727 (Reply 43):
WN's HOU expansion was the perfect cover for those cuts.

Why would they need "cover"? They already moved the HQ and this administration loves to stick it to Texas--they probably would have helped move the HQ and given them a space shuttle in Chicago if they could 

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: point2point
Posted 2013-01-28 15:03:59 and read 7229 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 40):
Though the NUMBER of UA flights at DEN is increasing, I expect that ASM's are actually near-flat. It takes several Q400's/CRJ's/CR7's on short routes like GUC/MTJ/HDN/JAC/IDA to make up for the cuts on mainline equipment to MCO & TPA. And much of this offers little benefit to Denver-area travelers as the vast majority of traffic on the new flights will be connecting (i.e. very few aside from non-revs would fly DEN-HDN/DEN-GUC/DEN-MTJ). If anything, it may crowd out Denver-area customers as UA flows more connections to the smaller markets over DEN, thus making fewer seats available for Denver O&D.

I wouldn't disagree with you here in the big picture, but I would think that having more flights to choose from in a schedule (even if they are the smaller birds) would add some convenience for a DEN traveler? And yes, I wouldn't think that there is a whole lot of O&D to some of these Colorado airports that are near DEN anyway.

From my POV, just glad that cuts aren't happening as rapidly as we've seen maybe pre-merger with UA and DEN. And the other concern just wanted to take into account here is that I would think that economists/financial planners for both the airport and UA did their homework so that the $22M 'rent reduction' that was recently agreed to by the two parties is the number that will benefit both sides in this transaction. And even though F9 and WN were throwing their tantrums with this at the time....... has anything been heard lately about this? So.... could one assume that maybe the airport management and the other airlines with their hands out now at DEN have reached some sort of understanding to the benefit of all? And if so (I still think that it's maybe an IF at this point), this could reflect quite positively on the DEN airport management that they can give up some revenue here and in turn, find more and different revenue streams generated from what they got for what they gave up.

Just my    here and continuing to watch if the $22M (and maybe some more) was an investment well made............

 

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-28 15:09:30 and read 7180 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 45):

Haha, very funny!

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: ScottB
Posted 2013-01-28 15:18:49 and read 7179 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 44):
First of all, IAH-CDG was not served for "over 20 years." It was 15 - it started in 1997.

My apologies, CO had served Paris non-stop from IAH for over two decades, although they originally served Orly and not Roissy.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 44):
When CO left SkyTeam, the situation changed, but CO held onto the flight.

So how exactly does IAH-AMS survive when IAH-CDG fails? KL probably has a better reputation for service than either CO or AF.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: COflyerBOS
Posted 2013-01-28 15:24:45 and read 7146 times.

I am just arm-chair quarterbacking, but tell me which of the following isn't true;

1) Houston's economy is robust and growing
2) Houston is UA's only viable gateway to Latin America
3) CO enjoyed IAH having some of the highest fares year after year
4) CO/UA has no major competition at IAH
5) UA competes directly with AA at ORD on nearly every route
6) The economy in Texas > the economy in Illinois/Upper Midwest
7) With AA in bankruptcy, IAH was positioned to take some business from DFW connections

With those things stated, why then has IAH been downsized? Why has UA drawn back when WN has beefed up their schedule at Hobby? Why has UA not announced any new international flying but TK and CA have entered the market and LH has expanded its presence? Why have RJs been placed on routes to AUS, SAT, MSY, MEX, and more and markets like San Angelo, Abilene, Beaumont, Victoria, Del Rio, Texarkana, etc... been dropped essentially handing those markets over to AA and DFW?

Yes, I understand that DEN and ORD can carry some passengers that IAH was the only option for during the CO days, but it simply doesn't seem to make sense. Seems to me that there's some pride up in the old Sears Tower making some bad decisions. Cutting back a profitable hub with no direct competition and scaling back terminal facility upgrades in a growing and prosperous market simply has me baffled. I am not whining. I am questioning.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: mah4546
Posted 2013-01-28 15:25:46 and read 7168 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 48):
So how exactly does IAH-AMS survive when IAH-CDG fails? KL probably has a better reputation for service than either CO or AF.

IAHAMS has ridiculously high average fares thanks to Shell. That's how it survives. If every trans-Atlantic route could average fares as high as IAHAMS, U.S.-EU would be an absolute goldmine.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-28 15:38:19 and read 7068 times.

Quoting COflyerBOS (Reply 49):

Maybe you question too much, this was only a minor 10% reduction. They will contract at first then expand in the end.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-01-28 16:34:35 and read 6774 times.

Quoting COflyerBOS (Reply 49):
I am just arm-chair quarterbacking, but tell me which of the following isn't true;

That's pretty much the story. But Chicago, whose economy is somewhere between a dumpster fire and Sarah Palin's career, gets new service  IAH/HOU are getting loads of new service, just not on UA--their loss.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-28 16:37:45 and read 6731 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 52):

Who knows what will happen tomorrow though, UA could be planning new routes as far as we know.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2013-01-28 16:48:32 and read 6645 times.

For all we know united could have contract negotiations with the airport coming up and this is all strategy. Get a much lower price and lock it in for a while. I am sure the message of uniteds anger of HOU and stuff is being hear loud and clear right now I wouldnt say it means anything long term.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2013-01-28 17:13:26 and read 6538 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*NK FLL-NAS MAY 0.3>0 JUN 1.0>0 JUL 1.0>0 AUG 1.0>0

Victory B6 and UP

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
TA LAX-GUA JUL 0>0.4 AUG 0.0>0.5

I didn't realize TA had dropped LAX-GUA

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*UA EWR-LIR JUN 0.9>0.3 JUL 1.0>0.3 AUG 1.0>0.3 SEP 1.0>0.3 OCT 1.0>0.3

The rationalization of frequencies of all carriers going into LIR is still happening. Alot of seats have been added to the LIR market, and it will take some time for the demand to catch up to the capacity.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: MarcoPoloWorld
Posted 2013-01-28 18:24:25 and read 6217 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 44):
SFO-CDG was pulled in 2005 and it wouldn't surprise me if it is pulled again. AF is indeed very entrenched in SFO, and XL Airways also operated a summer seasonal flight to San Fran last year, which UA will have to contend with. Perhaps UA feels that its loyalty base in San Fran will flock to this new service and benefit from having a nonstop West Coast connection to France, but it is questionable whether the yields will allow this flight to be sustainable.

Well, to me, the presence of a relatively obscure airline (XL) on this line, as well as the deployment last summer by AF of the A380 plus a second frequency during certain days of the week - although seasonal - seems to indicate that this market is under served. And if AF can be successful mounting these flights from its hub (CDG), UA would have good reason to re-try doing the same from one of theirs (SFO). That's at least how I would look at it if I was UA.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: knope2001
Posted 2013-01-28 19:51:21 and read 5885 times.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 3):
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):*DL SLC-MSN JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0 AUG 0>1.0 SEP 0>1.0 OCT 0>1.0So there will be service from Madison to SLC but zero flights to Milwaukee. That must be a such a major hole for the MKE business community not to have a SLC link especially if Delta keeps building elites.

The flight to SLC relies significnatly on connections west...either MKE-SLC or MSN-SLC.

Routes like MSN-LAS and MSN-LAX via Salt Lake compete against connecting flights, mostly with an RJ leg.
Routes like MKE-LAS and MKE-LAX via Salt Lake compete against multiple Southwest nonstops.

The comparable economics of a long/thin feeder flight to Salt Lake on a CR7 or E175 are better from Madison than Milwaukee.

Milwaukee definitely has a big advantage on local traffic to/from SLC, and if/when MKE does get a flight to Salt Lake perhaps it's local traffic that will support it. To be honest, though I certainly wish we could add Salt Lae back to our list of nonstop cities, 3+ hours in something like a CR7 isn't all that appealing.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: enilria
Posted 2013-01-29 06:32:36 and read 5018 times.

Quoting point2point (Reply 33):
Oh well, such is the likes of the airline game, eh?

I guess. I think the problem (which I recently came to) is that in the USA the cost per enplaned passengers is not sufficiently different at the primary and the alternate airport, and that is why Europe is different.

Quoting AVENSAB727 (Reply 34):
Quoting enilria (Reply 31):

A serious mistake by United.

Perhaps. Nobody knows about the egg except the govt officials and the people reading this thread, LOL.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 35):
Oh, I completely agree. But equally obnoxious are the tantrums that the IAH loyalists love to throw on these forums at whim's notice.

Well, the difference is that UA has the power and the apparent desire to act vindictively and the posters don't.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 35):
Still, you can't fault the airline for implementing necessary capacity guidance measures in order to stay profitable.

If you talk to people who know what is profitable and what isn't, they will tell you that this goes beyond simply culling unprofitable flying across the network. I'll leave it at that.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 40):
It's all quite bizarre IMO. How much positive brand equity from CO have Smisek and company just flushed down the toilet since the merger? I think at this point that many in Houston are ready to say good riddance to them.

Agreed. With IAH their 787 base, I'm surprised they haven't take the opportunity to lay the 787 problems at Houston's feet. LOL

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 55):
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*NK FLL-NAS MAY 0.3>0 JUN 1.0>0 JUL 1.0>0 AUG 1.0>0

Victory B6 and UP

Exactly. NK is fading in FLL. Oh wait, they are just shrinking over 2 years because of facility construction that affects only them, but allows their competitors to grow, ROTFL.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: NWAESC
Posted 2013-01-29 06:39:54 and read 4981 times.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 13):
There a few very companies in MSN that provide DL with a lot of their business. I would not be surprised if they are the ones specifically asking for better west coast connectivity.

Bingo.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: tommy767
Posted 2013-01-29 07:08:41 and read 4896 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 44):
SFO-CDG was pulled in 2005 and it wouldn't surprise me if it is pulled again. AF is indeed very entrenched in SFO, and XL Airways also operated a summer seasonal flight to San Fran last year, which UA will have to contend with. Perhaps UA feels that its loyalty base in San Fran will flock to this new service and benefit from having a nonstop West Coast connection to France, but it is questionable whether the yields will allow this flight to be sustainable.

I too feel the same about the relaunch of SFO-CDG. Seems half assed, IMHO.

Would like to see SFO-CAN or IAH-SCL instead.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-29 07:24:23 and read 4818 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 58):

Yea, but it doesn't mean UA will do that. IAH is UAs most profitable hub.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-29 07:35:16 and read 4770 times.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 60):
Would like to see SFO-CAN or IAH-SCL instead.

I think IAH-SCL will happen at the same time as SFO-CAN. I am also hoping for IAH-HKG, EWR-CCS.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2013-01-29 07:36:12 and read 4766 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 40):
Absolutely -- but IAH is better positioned to flow traffic to & from Latin America, a region which has seen far more robust traffic growth over the past several years than Europe which remains mired in recession. And they're reducing a hub in a metro area with 5.8% unemployment in favor of a hub in a metro area with 8.3% unemployment?

There seems to be this IAH-fanboy fixation on playing the U/E rate card time after time again. While important, this isn't the end-all, be-all rule by which an airline makes capacity decisions across their hub systems. If that were so the case, then DTW, LAX, EWR and CLT would have all been reduced in size by now (their U/E rates are higher than Chicago's, FYI).

In fact, virtually every major US metropolitan area with a "hub" airline has a higher U/E rate than Houston with the exceptions of DFW, DC and MSP.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 42):
That's a nice narrative, but it doesn't fit the recent history at all. If that were true, wouldn't they have started the wind-down soon after the merger, and not after a local spat? For chrissakes even CLE has grown--why hasn't that been trimmed in favor of IAD/ORD? Why didn't UA draw down ORD when it was suing the city? Surely DEN/IAD could have picked up the traffic?

It fits the history perfectly. You're just in denial and are bitter about it. You repeatedly tend to skim over irrefutable facts that legitimizes the decisions made by UA, yet are still upset that IAH lost service to sagging markets like Beaumont/Port Arthur, Del Rio and Tuxtla Gutierrez.

And please don't mention CLE's growth here. It just comes off as desperate. You do realize that the IAH hub is still five and a half times larger than CLE. There are also a mere 5 international destinations served nonstop from CLE (3 in Canada, 2 in Latin America). There are approximately 60 out of IAH (all on UA) spread across Asia, Africa, Europe and Latin America.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 42):
They cover UA. Of course it's all relative, but combined with the rest of the economic and capacity data, it should be a surprise to no one that Texas has some of the strongest growth in the industry. That's fair to say whether or not you believe their data.

It's fair because you know the data was inaccurate and unreliable. I notice you haven't been able to counteract any of the points I have raised.

Any article that assesses the financial health of the airline industry and places Virgin America (which has only had one profitable quarter since its inception) under a positive light likely has zero working knowledge about the industry.

Quoting enilria (Reply 58):
Well, the difference is that UA has the power and the apparent desire to act vindictively and the posters don't.

They did once and they haven't done it since. It was a decision UA was likely going to implement and they falsely believed they had a timely reason to announce it via scapegoating. It backfired horrifically on them.

Come on, Enilria. You know this.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: tommy767
Posted 2013-01-29 07:49:06 and read 4714 times.

Quoting AVENSAB727 (Reply 62):
I am also hoping for IAH-HKG, EWR-CCS.

EWR-CCS and IAHJ-HKG will never happen. If anything, IAH will get more LatAm, no more to Asia and Europe

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: klwright69
Posted 2013-01-29 07:51:14 and read 4713 times.

Actually CO served IAH-Paris nonstop for around 20 years. They started the flight when I was working at CO at DEN Stapleton. This was between 1991-1993. EWR-Paris started in the late 80's. I believe the original flight number from IAH to Paris was flight #10. When I am back in the USA, I might be able to find a CO newsletter from that era.

All CO flights to Paris were at ORLY in the beginning. If I recall correctly, AA and CO were still at Orly while the other US carriers were at CDG.

1997 must have been the year they switched to CDG.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-29 08:03:54 and read 4652 times.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 64):

I see, I am still hoping for any chance of IAH-MAR.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2013-01-29 08:21:54 and read 4612 times.

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 65):

Actually CO served IAH-Paris nonstop for around 20 years. They started the flight when I was working at CO at DEN Stapleton. This was between 1991-1993. EWR-Paris started in the late 80's. I believe the original flight number from IAH to Paris was flight #10. When I am back in the USA, I might be able to find a CO newsletter from that era.

All CO flights to Paris were at ORLY in the beginning. If I recall correctly, AA and CO were still at Orly while the other US carriers were at CDG.

1997 must have been the year they switched to CDG.

My apologies.

Either way, for the bulk of the 20+ years when CO flew Houston-Paris, oil was cheap. Times have changed.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 52):
That's pretty much the story. But Chicago, whose economy is somewhere between a dumpster fire and Sarah Palin's career, gets new service  IAH/HOU are getting loads of new service, just not on UA--their loss.

Funny you say that. This year, ORD will see new service on AA to DUS, AB to BER, QR to DOH, OS to VIE, HU to PEK, UA to SNN and SJO. EI and LX are boosting frequency, and PK has also been rumored to make a return.

So much for an economy in the toilet as it applies to your logic on airline service  

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-01-29 08:39:57 and read 4560 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 63):
And please don't mention CLE's growth here.

Oh of course not, because in all their network right sizing, clearly all the right sizing must fall on IAH, and not the small hub between two larger nearby hubs 
Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 63):
There seems to be this IAH-fanboy fixation on playing the U/E rate card time after time again.

It's not just unemployment rate--pick your favorite metric, Texas and Houston are probably outperforming the nation on it.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 63):
It's fair because you know the data was inaccurate and unreliable. I notice you haven't been able to counteract any of the points I have raised.

I haven't seen the actual report, have you? But it does line up with everything I've seen. What other points am I supposed to counteract? UA has been underperforming most of the rest of the industry in terms of PRASM increase versus last year. LF isn't the problem. It's not a far stretch of the imagination that it's on the fare side, and it's probably not in DEN, ORD, or SFO. Maybe CLE is propping the whole operation up 
Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 63):
upset that IAH lost service to sagging markets like Beaumont/Port Arthur, Del Rio and Tuxtla Gutierrez.

I don't think anyone is really upset about the service losses--regardless IAH/HOU has gained more than UA has cut. Any major network hub in the US could probably afford to lose a dozen destinations and not do any damage to the P&L. It's the conspicuous lack of new destinations that is absurd, but again, IAH/HOU will get it from someone, just not UA.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 67):
Funny you say that. This year, ORD will see new service on AA to DUS, AB to BER, QR to DOH, OS to VIE, HU to PEK, UA to SNN and SJO. EI and LX are boosting frequency, and PK has also been rumored to make a return.

Excluding UA, HOU/IAH seats are up 10+% year over year consistently over the next six months; MDW/ORD are flat. Including UA, Houston is still growing at low single digits, and Chicago is still flat.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-29 08:43:01 and read 4545 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 68):

Gee, IAH was bloated and some service needed to be cut. UA will add routes out of IAH, probably more Lat Am service, just give it time, our patience will pay off one day.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: ScottB
Posted 2013-01-29 09:48:26 and read 4399 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 63):
There seems to be this IAH-fanboy fixation on playing the U/E rate card time after time again. While important, this isn't the end-all, be-all rule by which an airline makes capacity decisions across their hub systems. If that were so the case, then DTW, LAX, EWR and CLT would have all been reduced in size by now (their U/E rates are higher than Chicago's, FYI).

In fact, virtually every major US metropolitan area with a "hub" airline has a higher U/E rate than Houston with the exceptions of DFW, DC and MSP.

Fanboy of ad hominem attacks much? I'm actually not an "IAH-fanboy;" you could probably throw me in as a dumba-- UA management anti-fanboy. But since you've raised the point of other airlines not reducing (or adding) service in markets with higher unemployment rates than Houston -- how many of them are so blind/stupid/moronic/r-word as to be CUTTING service in hub markets with unemployment rates equal to or lower than Houston? Perhaps AA, but they're bankrupt. WN has what for them approximates a hub at HOU and they're adding service. Even NK thinks there's money to be made in Houston.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 63):
You repeatedly tend to skim over irrefutable facts that legitimizes the decisions made by UA, yet are still upset that IAH lost service to sagging markets like Beaumont/Port Arthur, Del Rio and Tuxtla Gutierrez.

Honestly, the loss of service to markets like BPT/VCT/DRT/SJT/TGZ is pretty meaningless since it affects so few Houston-area passengers. No one (apart from mileage runners) would fly from Houston to BPT or VCT; you could probably drive to either in the time it would take to get from parking to the gate. But the conspicuous attitude that Houston is to be punished for defying the will of HRH J. Smisek grates on Houstonians and frankly amuses me because it is so unbelievably childish for a multi-billion dollar company. I am absolutely delighted that NK is building up at IAH and I dearly hope that they kick off a massive international expansion from IAH to teach UA management to be careful what they wish for!

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 68):
Any major network hub in the US could probably afford to lose a dozen destinations and not do any damage to the P&L. It's the conspicuous lack of new destinations that is absurd, but again, IAH/HOU will get it from someone, just not UA.

   It is glaringly obvious -- all the puffed-up news releases about new UA service since May 2012 have excluded IAH. I don't have a dog in this fight -- I'm sitting back with a bowl of popcorn and laughing while I watch the guys up in Chicago try to destroy the brand in Houston.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 67):
Either way, for the bulk of the 20+ years when CO flew Houston-Paris, oil was cheap. Times have changed.

Except that expensive oil is generally good for flights to & from Houston, especially the international ones. And Paris is one of the key hubs for oil industry workers needing to reach cities in French-speaking Africa. While the AF code share may no longer exist, the two carriers most certainly still interline.

But instead they added SFO-CDG? Maybe they're trying to capitalize on the synergies of the millionaire taxes in California & France.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-29 10:10:29 and read 4348 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 70):

Nonsense. UA doesn't have to add routes to and from IAH, They have up gauged equipment on many flights out of IAH and added frequencies. If UA was "Screwing" Houston, the 787 would not be based here and the additions of frequency would not have happened. Every time something about UA and IAH comes up this nonsense keeps coming up and destroying threads. It's like you can't stand UA at IAH and want to see IAH cut!

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: mah4546
Posted 2013-01-29 10:26:03 and read 4325 times.

Quoting AVENSAB727 (Reply 66):
Quoting tommy767 (Reply 64):


I see, I am still hoping for any chance of IAH-MAR.

Zero chance. It's a closed market.

Quoting AVENSAB727 (Reply 71):
It's like you can't stand UA at IAH and want to see IAH cut!

No, I think that you just can't face the reality that UA is cutting IAH.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-29 10:29:51 and read 4305 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 72):

I think you are wrong.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: STT757
Posted 2013-01-29 10:30:40 and read 4304 times.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 64):
EWR-CCS and IAHJ-HKG will never happen. If anything, IAH will get more LatAm, no more to Asia and Europe

CO used to fly that route with a daily 73G until Venezuela forced them to reduce their flights to only IAH. Also UA flew JFK-CCS-POS, so yes obviously if they can get permission UA will once again launch EWR-CCS.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: ScottB
Posted 2013-01-29 10:37:46 and read 4281 times.

Quoting AVENSAB727 (Reply 71):
They have up gauged equipment on many flights out of IAH and added frequencies.

And how much have they cut? IAH-AUS/SAT used to be all mainline and now both are served predominantly by outsourced regional carriers. The A320's being deployed into IAH in place of 738's are actually downgauges in capacity in both cabins. Moving from two 777's on IAH-LON to 3 763's is an increase in frequency but there's no increase in capacity. And while UA is cutting IAH-CDG, international carriers seem eager to add service to IAH. Go figure.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-29 10:42:09 and read 4249 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 75):

I guess you have not heard about cross fleeting.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: tommy767
Posted 2013-01-29 10:47:21 and read 4245 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 74):
CO used to fly that route with a daily 73G until Venezuela forced them to reduce their flights to only IAH. Also UA flew JFK-CCS-POS, so yes obviously if they can get permission UA will once again launch EWR-CCS.

The 1990s was a much different time. I highly doubt it.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-29 10:58:04 and read 4218 times.

I remember there was a EWR-CCS flight back in 2001.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: mah4546
Posted 2013-01-29 11:11:32 and read 4198 times.

Quoting AVENSAB727 (Reply 73):
Quoting mah4546 (Reply 72):


I think you are wrong.

Wrong on what? The fact that UA keeps reducing IAH service or that Venezuela is closed to new entry? Neither is wrong.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 74):
CO used to fly that route with a daily 73G until Venezuela forced them to reduce their flights to only IAH.

CO wasn't forced out. It ended EWRCCS on its own accord back when the Venezuela market was struggling. AA also ended FLLCCS on its own accord. I bet both regret those cuts big time these days, because Venezuela-U.S. market has pretty much doubled since.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-29 11:20:20 and read 4171 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 79):

That UA keeps reducing IAH, they just cut what was unprofitable.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: enilria
Posted 2013-01-29 11:29:16 and read 4154 times.

Quoting AVENSAB727 (Reply 61):
Quoting enilria (Reply 58):

Yea, but it doesn't mean UA will do that. IAH is UAs most profitable hub.
Quoting AVENSAB727 (Reply 80):
Quoting mah4546 (Reply 79):

That UA keeps reducing IAH, they just cut what was unprofitable.

They are cutting routes (since the CBP decision on HOU) at IAH that are superior to routes at other hubs that don't get cut. That's what is going on. I hope they are not cutting profitable routes, but they are definitely holding IAH to a higher standard.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2013-01-29 11:29:36 and read 4156 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 68):
Oh of course not, because in all their network right sizing, clearly all the right sizing must fall on IAH, and not the small hub between two larger nearby hubs 

Bear in mind that pmCO parred down CLE to its current level BEFORE the merger; if it was truly not generating the profits and yields needed to justify the costs the newly merged UA is sinking into it, then it would have been scaled down by now.

Obviously, CLE is holding its weight right now. Even though on paper it may not make logical sense that CLE is still around in spite of its geographic positioning between EWR and ORD, that doesn't mean there isn't a business case for keeping it open. Perhaps it never occurred to you that unlike in IAH, the business and medical community in Cleveland have embraced UA.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 68):
t's not just unemployment rate--pick your favorite metric, Texas and Houston are probably outperforming the nation on it.

Please, enough with the Texas pride. I grew up in Dallas and I get it, I know where it comes from but I also know when it doesn't apply. This is one of those situations.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 68):
I haven't seen the actual report, have you? But it does line up with everything I've seen. What other points am I supposed to counteract? UA has been underperforming most of the rest of the industry in terms of PRASM increase versus last year. LF isn't the problem. It's not a far stretch of the imagination that it's on the fare side, and it's probably not in DEN, ORD, or SFO. Maybe CLE is propping the whole operation up 

The report does not line up with anything you've "seen" nor anything that even closely resembles reality. Rather, the report resembles what you want to believe (or at least tosses out nonfactual/inconclusive data that you can spin to support your perceptions).

UA's PRASM is suffering simply and purely because its corporate clientele have flocked to the competition. The proof in that is the double digit PRASM growth experienced at DL and US despite flat YoY capacity growth at both carriers. Even AA, despite all the drama from seats falling out last year, experienced revenue growth.

Basically, the high-yielding traffic that said they would vote with their feet essentially won out, and UA f*cked it up even more by getting into this mess situation with Houston. PMUA was PROFITABLE before the merger. IAH and EWR, while great additions to the network, are not the geese that laid the golden eggs.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 70):
Fanboy of ad hominem attacks much?

No, more like fanboy of healthy debates. It's what these forums are for!

Quoting ScottB (Reply 70):
I am absolutely delighted that NK is building up at IAH and I dearly hope that they kick off a massive international expansion from IAH to teach UA management to be careful what they wish for!

Oh boy. Have fun with that one. If you actually did your airline research properly, you'd realize that NK and UA do not even compete for a smidgen of overlapping traffic. NK carves out marketshare from a sector that would have either traveled by car, bus or not traveled at all. If you need more evidence to prove this, look no further than DFW to the north and you'll see that even with AA in BK, NK hasn't even made a dent into the fortress hub there with its expansion.

Also, if you want NK to spread intl from IAH, be my guest. I'll LOL when the ex-UA/CO Houstonians start b*tching about having to pay for water on a 5+ hr flight to Lima while sitting in a no-recline seat.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 75):
And how much have they cut? IAH-AUS/SAT used to be all mainline and now both are served predominantly by outsourced regional carriers.

This is a reflection on the industry as a whole and not so much what UA plans to do with IAH.

IAH-AUS/SAT are easily traveled by car or bus. You also have a HEAVY WN presence on these routes.

In Chicago, UA puts ERJ-145s(!) on some business routes like ORD-MSP, ORD-ATL and ORD-RDU. It's unbelievable. Never mind the fact that AA doesn't even fly mainline anymore from ORD to CVG, ATL, EWR, BWI, etc. These are market realities one has to accept until conditions improve.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 75):
And while UA is cutting IAH-CDG, international carriers seem eager to add service to IAH. Go figure.

International airlines aren't "flocking" to Houston in massive hoards. You have TK that is adding FOUR WEEKLY flights (announced over 6 months ago in June) slated to start this April. Next, you have Air China adding FOUR WEEKLY flights starting in July.

I hate to burst your bubble but, well, 8 new weekly flights announced over the course of 6 months isn't all that earth-shattering.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: mah4546
Posted 2013-01-29 11:40:41 and read 4143 times.

Quoting AVENSAB727 (Reply 80):
That UA keeps reducing IAH, they just cut what was unprofitable.

Huh? So in the end, we at least agree that UA keeps cutting IAH.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-29 11:55:01 and read 4094 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 83):

They did cut what was unprofitable at IAH. But no new cuts since.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: ScottB
Posted 2013-01-29 13:00:59 and read 3988 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 82):
Also, if you want NK to spread intl from IAH, be my guest. I'll LOL when the ex-UA/CO Houstonians start b*tching about having to pay for water on a 5+ hr flight to Lima while sitting in a no-recline seat.

The damage wouldn't be from NK operating IAH-LIM; it would be from NK adding IAH-CUN/CZM/TLC/MTY/GDL/BZE/SAP/SJO. Besides, there really is little difference in amenities for coach passengers between UA & NK these days.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 82):
In Chicago, UA puts ERJ-145s(!) on some business routes like ORD-MSP, ORD-ATL and ORD-RDU. It's unbelievable. Never mind the fact that AA doesn't even fly mainline anymore from ORD to CVG, ATL, EWR, BWI, etc. These are market realities one has to accept until conditions improve.

Except that a good chunk of the mainline capacity pulled out of IAH did end up in the other hubs. Domestic UA (or UA+CO for the prior period) mainline departures from IAH were down by nearly 15% from November 2009 (deep in the Great Recession) to November 2012. IAD and SFO both saw increases over the same period. But I will agree with you on one thing -- the poor decision-making at United doesn't end in IAH!

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 82):
No, more like fanboy of healthy debates.

Except calling others "fanboys" isn't conducive to healthy debate (and does amount to an ad hominem attack). It's also against the forum rules.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 82):
If you actually did your airline research properly, you'd realize that NK and UA do not even compete for a smidgen of overlapping traffic. NK carves out marketshare from a sector that would have either traveled by car, bus or not traveled at all.

NK does create new traffic on its own, but they also do capture some passengers from UA. Given the choice between a $500 IAH-ORD one-way on UA or a $200 IAH-ORD one-way on NK on short notice, I'd suck it up and go on Evil Spirit.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 82):
International airlines aren't "flocking" to Houston in massive hoards. You have TK that is adding FOUR WEEKLY flights (announced over 6 months ago in June) slated to start this April. Next, you have Air China adding FOUR WEEKLY flights starting in July.

Um, so? We still see that international carriers find Houston to be an attractive place to expand international service while United does not. What do CA & TK see in Houston that United doesn't?

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: mah4546
Posted 2013-01-29 13:26:33 and read 3962 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 85):
Besides, there really is little difference in amenities for coach passengers between UA & NK these days.

Really? Because UA offers free carry-on, IFE, free drinks, free seat assignment, and reclining seats.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2013-01-29 14:15:27 and read 3866 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 85):
The damage wouldn't be from NK operating IAH-LIM; it would be from NK adding IAH-CUN/CZM/TLC/MTY/GDL/BZE/SAP/SJO. Besides, there really is little difference in amenities for coach passengers between UA & NK these days.

You realize that a large volume of the IAH-Mexico traffic is connecting to other parts of the US, correct? NK won't be able to fill that function.

And no, the lines aren't as blurry as you claim. Flying UA, one still receives one free checked bag, carry-on bag, seat selection, complimentary refreshments, and pretty much no hidden fees (such as $5 for printing your boarding pass at the airport).

Quoting ScottB (Reply 85):
Domestic UA (or UA+CO for the prior period) mainline departures from IAH were down by nearly 15% from November 2009 (deep in the Great Recession) to November 2012. IAD and SFO both saw increases over the same period.

You're looking at it very holistically. Are you just assessing mainline departures or system-wide capacity as a whole? If it's the former, then yes, I'm inclined to believe that IAH *may* have experienced a reduction that high. However, if it is the latter, then my source (direct airport reports) is showing that for November 2012, IAH's capacity was down by only 0.9%. IAD's was down 4.4%.

The numbers will also fluctuate by month to account for seasonal adjustments.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 85):
Except calling others "fanboys" isn't conducive to healthy debate (and does amount to an ad hominem attack). It's also against the forum rules.

Oh please. You're thicker skinned than that. You'll also find that I'm not in the minority when I say that the UA griping by the IAH loyalists on these threads have really spun out of control. When other people jump on that bandwagon, I have a reason to lump them in the same category because the collective basis of opinion is largely rooted in emotion and distortion of reality rather than actual concrete fact.

Notice that the instant you said you weren't an IAH fanboy, I ceased making further comments about it. It also wasn't intended to come off as offensive, so please don't take it as an insult.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 85):
NK does create new traffic on its own, but they also do capture some passengers from UA. Given the choice between a $500 IAH-ORD one-way on UA or a $200 IAH-ORD one-way on NK on short notice, I'd suck it up and go on Evil Spirit.

Whatever traffic they capture from UA is obviously not impacting UA, or at least siphoning off lucrative traffic that UA cares about retaining. UA only needs to worry about traffic lost to legacies and WN more than NK.

Furthermore, WN has been present in the Houston-Chicago corridor forever and has been exerting downward fare pressure long before NK came into the picture. While a $500 o/w walk-up fare last minute may be a lot for someone like you, it's not really all that much for business travelers.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 85):
Um, so? We still see that international carriers find Houston to be an attractive place to expand international service while United does not. What do CA & TK see in Houston that United doesn't?

TK has grandiose expansion plans as part of its future growth strategy, and linking its IST hub to IAH was an obvious choice given that Gulf carriers have gained success in Houston for years, and IST is geographically well-positioned to funnel traffic to a broader array of destinations in the Middle East over EK and QR. Furthermore, as a Star hub-to-hub route, it is likely to be a winner. Neither UA nor pmCO ever expressed interest in flying this route, and TK has the aircraft deliveries on order and the single-hub concentration strategy to link the two cities.

As far as CA is concerned, I for one was expecting UA to launch a Chinese route from Houston, but it never materialized. Perhaps it was a slot timing issue, in which case a Chinese carrier will naturally have better picks over the US legacy carrier. That, or UA already felt PEK was well connected to 5 of UA's existing hubs (ORD, EWR, IAD, SFO and NRT) without needing to add a 5th one to cannibalize traffic.

Finally, remember that pmCO could have easily made these network investments out of Houston, yet chose to focus primarily out of Newark when it came to growing its international network (excluding Latin America)

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: 767driver
Posted 2013-01-29 14:46:34 and read 3814 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 86):
Really? Because UA offers free carry-on, IFE, free drinks, free seat assignment, and reclining seats.

With the exception of IFE and drinks, so does NK....if you're not using an overhead, choosing your seat at the kiosk, and on a 319

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-29 14:50:01 and read 3806 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 81):

I agree, but UA is not cutting profitable routes, many of those have seen up gauges in aircraft aswell as in frequency.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2013-01-29 14:53:08 and read 3788 times.

I'm not going to get into the IAH cheese and whine party because I've been to it too many times already and there's more density in those whine party's than inside a neutron star.  

Back to the thread. I can't help but notice that KE is keeping DFW at daily into the fall. Guess we can expect KE and AA to duke it out.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-29 14:56:33 and read 3773 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 90):

I think that could happen, The IAH whine party has gotten all but predictable for me.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2013-01-29 15:42:24 and read 3696 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 90):
I'm not going to get into the IAH cheese and whine party because I've been to it too many times already and there's more density in those whine party's than inside a neutron star.  

Thank you, for once, a sane, rational person who can actually support his statements with conclusive facts. Glad we're on the same page (per usual).

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 90):
Back to the thread. I can't help but notice that KE is keeping DFW at daily into the fall. Guess we can expect KE and AA to duke it out.

It's only until 26OCT13, at least for now. Previously, it was going to go to 27AUG. So we'll see.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: ScottB
Posted 2013-01-29 15:44:49 and read 3703 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 87):
Flying UA, one still receives one free checked bag

Nope.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 87):
seat selection

At the back of the plane. I think one might be better off with the NK seat lottery.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 87):
You realize that a large volume of the IAH-Mexico traffic is connecting to other parts of the US, correct? NK won't be able to fill that function.

You haven't noticed that NK's current flights at IAH are domestic? You don't think they'd sell connections over IAH?

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 87):
Are you just assessing mainline departures

Domestic mainline departures, as I said explicitly.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 87):
Notice that the instant you said you weren't an IAH fanboy, I ceased making further comments about it. It also wasn't intended to come off as offensive, so please don't take it as an insult.

"Fanboy" has derogatory connotations and it is generally used to discredit the person to whom the term is applied; i.e. you can't reason with X, he's a fanboy. There are plenty of word choices without the offensive connotation of "fanboy" -- might I suggest afficionado, booster, supporter, backer, devotee, or loyalist as you amended your word choice. It has nothing to do with thin skin -- by your choice of words you essentially suggest dismissing the other side's argument by discrediting it.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 87):
While a $500 o/w walk-up fare last minute may be a lot for someone like you, it's not really all that much for business travelers.

Well, I'd say it's not much for business travelers who aren't on tight travel policies. It depends on how much one can justify to the client/manager/travel office. For personal travel it's exorbitant.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 87):
remember that pmCO could have easily made these network investments out of Houston, yet chose to focus primarily out of Newark when it came to growing its international network

New York/New Jersey is a larger market than Houston; that's not shocking. And 757's certainly cannot reach Europe from Houston on any sort of commercially viable basis. But CO did see fit to invest in markets like IAH-ORY/CDG and apparently it must have done well enough to survive 20 years with AF already having had a presence in the market.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 87):
As far as CA is concerned, I for one was expecting UA to launch a Chinese route from Houston, but it never materialized. Perhaps it was a slot timing issue, in which case a Chinese carrier will naturally have better picks over the US legacy carrier.

I suspect that had CA (as UA's *A partner) wanted slots to be available for UA to launch IAH-PEK, those slots would have magically become available.

But as I said before, clearly there are international carriers which see opportunities at IAH that the occupants of Willis Tower do not.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-29 16:00:29 and read 3664 times.

But I think you forgot seasonal adjustments.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-29 16:05:17 and read 3662 times.

I wonder when the IAH whine party will end. irishayes was right about a lot here. I guess LAXdude1023 has a point in saying that he has gotten in to it too much. The amount of ignorance about this IAH and UA thing here is staggering.

[Edited 2013-01-29 16:19:43]

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-29 16:07:00 and read 3661 times.

I am pondering how AA could respond to KE.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: mah4546
Posted 2013-01-29 16:20:08 and read 3643 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 93):
Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 87):
Flying UA, one still receives one free checked bag

Nope.


Yup.

First bag is free on UA, DL and AA to Mexico and Central America. DL also doesn't charge for the first bag to Haiti and the Dominican Republic while AA, with the highest proportion of Caribbean-orignating travellers, doesn't charge for the first bag to the entire Caribbean/Bermuda/Bahamas region, sans STT/SJU.

[Edited 2013-01-29 16:22:07]

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: MSPNWA
Posted 2013-01-29 16:36:53 and read 3592 times.

What's happened at IAH is what has happened at every fortress hub I can think of in the past 5 years. There's no better recipe for shrinking supply and rising fares than a single dominant carrier. IAH is just been late to the pain party. Really they've fared pretty well compared to DL's fortress hubs.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: drerx7
Posted 2013-01-29 17:17:39 and read 3521 times.

I'm a Houstonian and IAH'Fanboy", I've sat this debate out - IrishAyes and a few select others have made some valid points...EXCEPT

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 82):
Perhaps it never occurred to you that unlike in IAH, the business and medical community in Cleveland have embraced UA.


This statement is loaded and not factually correct. NOBODY is courting CLE right now, you know the position that CLE was in regarding UA and the impending hub closure. Cleveland started a campaign to encourage the local business community to patronize UA so they won't pack up shop. The medical and business community (which far supercedes CLE) in Houston was UA's to lose...and they have successfully lost a small percentage of it. I know I have no problems booking away from UA now, whereas before the merger and in the pre-WN debacle many would pay more to fly CO/UA.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 87):
Finally, remember that pmCO could have easily made these network investments out of Houston, yet chose to focus primarily out of Newark when it came to growing its international network

Wrong again. With what aircraft could pmCO have 'easily' made these network investments? They didn't have sufficient widebody lift - they expanded with the 757 primarily from EWR. Regarding the UA and IAH matter, my stance has always been:
1. CO was beginning to decline 2 CEO's ago
2. I flew UA and CO equally and exclusively in the last 5 years - enjoyed both
3. IAH will seasonally vie with ORD for the ball-measuring contest that is the largest hub
4. UA cut unneeded capacity at IAH that could be spread across other hubs.
5. By reducing frequency and upgauging aircraft at IAH - they have been able to optimize yields at the already highest yielding hub in their network...IAH. Good for UA, bad for Houstonians.
6. Epic public relations fail in masking this monopoly play in the fallout of WN/HOU. How you manage to piss off an entire customer base that supported your operation faithfully is beyond comprehension in the realm of business. That's like me telling my patient's to go f*&!themselves after I deliver their crowns. The fallout has allowed NK to enter the market, as well as see all other domestic carriers at IAH post slight increases.
7. WN at HOU has grown by a noticeable margin.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-29 17:24:04 and read 3503 times.

Yeah, but I think UA will eventually win back alot of the customer base, this will blow over.

[Edited 2013-01-29 18:10:27]

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: EricR
Posted 2013-01-29 18:06:08 and read 3419 times.

Please delete, please delete

[Edited 2013-01-29 18:11:03]

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: FlyingSicilian
Posted 2013-01-29 18:19:13 and read 3408 times.

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 99):
1. CO was beginning to decline 2 CEO's ago
2. I flew UA and CO equally and exclusively in the last 5 years - enjoyed both
3. IAH will seasonally vie with ORD for the ball-measuring contest that is the largest hub
4. UA cut unneeded capacity at IAH that could be spread across other hubs.
5. By reducing frequency and upgauging aircraft at IAH - they have been able to optimize yields at the already highest yielding hub in their network...IAH. Good for UA, bad for Houstonians.
6. Epic public relations fail in masking this monopoly play in the fallout of WN/HOU. How you manage to piss off an entire customer base that supported your operation faithfully is beyond comprehension in the realm of business. That's like me telling my patient's to go f*&!themselves after I deliver their crowns. The fallout has allowed NK to enter the market, as well as see all other domestic carriers at IAH post slight increases.
7. WN at HOU has grown by a noticeable margin.

I concur with much of this. I am very interested in the goings-on at Texas airports including IAH/HOU-not sure I am a "fanboy" or not....
Much of the "lament" coming from some is overblown...of course some of the blind opptomism is misguided also.

UA is a business and will cut certain unprofitable routes. That being said they way they handled the WN/HOU CBP debate was horrid, and many workers I know at UA (former CO folks) agree.

IAH is fine when it comes to service, most airports would kill for the int'l service IAH has. Terminal D needs a major workover, thankfully they are fixing B. IAH will be just fine and will see more growth, whether from UA or others or both. WN/HOU notwithstanding.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-01-29 18:23:27 and read 3396 times.

Quoting AVENSAB727 (Reply 95):
The amount of ignorance about this IAH and UA thing here is staggering.

All you've contributed is "maybe they'll add something soon!" and you just told us AA has a focus city in SFO so you don't get to point fingers about misinformation.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 82):
Please, enough with the Texas pride.

It has nothing to do with pride. The Texas big city economies are outperforming just about everyone else. Oh and it's on the doorstep of one of the fastest growing regions in the world--just follow the AA/WN/DL capacity increases.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 82):
The report does not line up with anything you've "seen"

T100, DB1A, MIDT... You choose. It matches up. But by all means tell me your sources.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 87):
Finally, remember that pmCO could have easily made these network investments out of Houston

Same could have been said for UA and the recent OA adds at ORD. BER/VIE/DUS are going to be atrocious, nobody wants to fly to DOH other than QR, and PK is a joke. Regardless, it comes down to one simple question: if every other hub can get multiple new adds since May 2012, why is IAH in time out?

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 82):
the business and medical community in Cleveland have embraced UA.

Ha. Yes. I hear all the time how people "embrace" UA. Especially the corporate crowd.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-29 18:27:18 and read 3384 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 103):

That was my mistake. but I think the ignorance is very much accurate. and all you have contributed is your continued stubborn argument about how IAH is in time out! You just keep bringing that IAH is being punished by UA point up and keep trying to justify yourself when someone disagrees. UA is a business and will cut unprofitable routes, and IAH is no exception, routes out of other hubs have been cut too, so IAH is not alone.

[Edited 2013-01-29 18:32:06]

[Edited 2013-01-29 19:07:09]

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: COflyerBOS
Posted 2013-01-29 21:16:20 and read 3206 times.

Avensa-

The only ignorant posts on these threads come from you. You keep stating that UA hasn't cut routes from IAH. When shown how many cuts have indeed been made, you then claim they only cut unprofitable routes (care to share a source to back up your claim?). Then you claim UA is up gauging flights to make up the difference DESPITE Maverick's FACTS pointing out that mainline capacity is down from 2009 figures.

I am not an IAH fan boy. I chose IAH for 18 years in business to connect my office in BOS to the places I connected to the most (IAH, SAT, AUS, DAL, MSY, OKC, TUL, SJT, and LBB). One of those cities has been dropped. The rest have seen reductions in flights and an increase in regional jet flying.

To be honest, flying an ERJ between an IAH-AUS doesn't bother me. What bothers me is that it now requires a transfer from terminal E (often E-12) to B. That's a hassle and a long haul and makes transferring SUCK compared to how it used to be. I often fly last minute and routinely have to pay $1200+. I am not the type of consumer UA wants to turn off.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2013-01-29 21:21:34 and read 3200 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 93):
Nope.

To Mexico/Latin America/Caribbean, yes, they do. Go to united.com and see for yourself.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 93):
At the back of the plane. I think one might be better off with the NK seat lottery.

Suit yourself.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 93):
You haven't noticed that NK's current flights at IAH are domestic? You don't think they'd sell connections over IAH?

If they sell connections, then so be it. Just bear in mind that NK doesn't follow a hub-and-spoke connecting model. At the end of the day, the options will pale in comparison to what UA currently offers, scheduling wise.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 93):
"Fanboy" has derogatory connotations and it is generally used to discredit the person to whom the term is applied; i.e. you can't reason with X, he's a fanboy.
Quoting ScottB (Reply 93):
by your choice of words you essentially suggest dismissing the other side's argument by discrediting it.

At this stage in the game, the persistent IAH whining by a select few individual only merits the name even more because it is relentless beyond all measurable means.

However, I apologize if this mild-mannered term managed to crawl under your skin so much. I won't use it again ever so loosely?

Quoting ScottB (Reply 93):
Well, I'd say it's not much for business travelers who aren't on tight travel policies. It depends on how much one can justify to the client/manager/travel office. For personal travel it's exorbitant.

Even under a tight business budget, $500 is not unreasonable. Ever traveled to CVG, MEM or YYZ? Advanced r/t tickets often times start off in the $900 range.

Personal travel is discretionary, and largely do not bring home the bacon for the majority of flights.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 93):
New York/New Jersey is a larger market than Houston; that's not shocking. And 757's certainly cannot reach Europe from Houston on any sort of commercially viable basis. But CO did see fit to invest in markets like IAH-ORY/CDG and apparently it must have done well enough to survive 20 years with AF already having had a presence in the market.
Quoting drerx7 (Reply 99):
Wrong again. With what aircraft could pmCO have 'easily' made these network investments?

pmCO could have expanded into a few more cities from Asia (such as ICN) or Latin America (SCL) yet never chose to do so.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 93):
But as I said before, clearly there are international carriers which see opportunities at IAH that the occupants of Willis Tower do not.

The same could be easily said for Chicago. pmUA never ventured into the ORD-DOH space when UA and QR had a codeshare agreement; instead, the flight went to IAD and now competes side by side with EK. Same with CM to PTY, among others.

Point being, there are business cases behind every network decision and there are obviously figures to support why UA has done what it has done at IAH. I mean, for pete's sake, you still got the LOS flight after all. If the new UA had decided to pull that one, then I'd say you would have a problem on your hands. So far, that hasn't happened.

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 99):
This statement is loaded and not factually correct. NOBODY is courting CLE right now, you know the position that CLE was in regarding UA and the impending hub closure. Cleveland started a campaign to encourage the local business community to patronize UA so they won't pack up shop. The medical and business community (which far supercedes CLE) in Houston was UA's to lose...and they have successfully lost a small percentage of it. I know I have no problems booking away from UA now, whereas before the merger and in the pre-WN debacle many would pay more to fly CO/UA.

Fair point, but I suppose one could argue that there are two sides to the story here. On one hand, you have a community like CLE which has become accustomed to downsizing and economic free fall for a period of time now. As I mentioned earlier, the hub has been so scaled back over the years, that perhaps the ONLY option for CLE flyers was to embrace the new UA, otherwise be faced with no option at all.

Conversely, at IAH, not only do you have a larger volume of loyalists and business fliers, but also you have more options and on top of that, UA instigated a slimy political posturing campaign last spring that pissed off a lot of people. I get that. UA likely did not realize that they had far more to lose in IAH than the probably thought initially.

So to your point, yes, the circumstances are different, but the entire reason why CLE was brought up anyway was because someone was contesting its usefulness as a hub, geographically speaking, in response to my argument that the IAH hub has to compete for traffic flows against ORD and DEN. Practically speaking, CLE has a much more de-emphasized focus in terms of the role it plays in the UA hub system and that comparison was never valid to begin with.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-01-29 21:46:33 and read 3166 times.

Quoting AVENSAB727 (Reply 104):
your continued stubborn argument about how IAH is in time out!

Let's just quickly review the new destinations UA has added to its hubs for this Spring/Summer, that were not flown last year:

ORD: 9
CLE: 2
DEN: 7
EWR: 7
IAD: 8
LAX: 3
SFO: 5

IAH: 0

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: point2point
Posted 2013-01-29 21:56:42 and read 3149 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 107):
ORD: 9
CLE: 2
DEN: 7
EWR: 7
IAD: 8
LAX: 3
SFO: 5

IAH: 0

Ouch..........


 Wow!

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-01-29 22:02:49 and read 3138 times.

Quoting point2point (Reply 108):
Ouch..........

And for the same period, OA has added about 8-10 destinations at IAH and HOU each.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: boilerla
Posted 2013-01-29 23:16:56 and read 3083 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 107):
Let's just quickly review the new destinations UA has added to its hubs for this Spring/Summer, that were not flown last year:

ORD: 9
CLE: 2
DEN: 7
EWR: 7
IAD: 8
LAX: 3
SFO: 5

IAH: 0

Why do Houstonians believe that they are entitled to some sort of holy grail status with UA, whereby they get flights added all the time? And conversely, why do they feel so dejected when UA cuts a flight at IAH? Are they that insecure?

There is ample amounts of data that show that while IAH is a lucrative fortress hub, UA has reasons to put its limited resources elsewhere. At the end of the day it's a zero sum game, and UA has a certain number of planes to put in the air every day. While the fares out of IAH are high, it has a several things going against it:

  • * As a hub, it is ill situated in the country for any connecting flows except to LatAm.
  • * As a hub, Houston as a city ranks poorly in the lucrative O&D traffic. In fact, all of UA's hubs have better O&D. Houstonians as a whole just don't like to fly compared to Chicagoans or Angelinos.
    (http://www.aviationplanning.com/Imag...20Analysis%20of%20US%20Traffic.pdf
    IAH + HOU is smaller than many other focus cities in the DL and UA system, despite Houston being much larger).
  • * As a hub, Houston is not the most western hub in the new UA system and therefore there is less reason to connect in IAH. There's LAX, SFO and DEN, all with HUGE O&D populations to pull from, that want direct flights--not connections in IAH.


There are other hubs that could complain equally about UA. For example LAX has lost several flights in the past couple of years, and has lost the most aside from CLE. Despite being the 2nd largest city in the country, and the largest O&D cache in the country, UA has shrunk here in LA. Should I feel slighted and spurned, and start taking this as a personal slight against God, country and city? Or should I just accept that I, as an armchair CEO, do not have any data in the slightest regarding yields to every route served out of LAX?

{end rant}

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2013-01-30 02:53:37 and read 3008 times.

Quoting boilerla (Reply 110):

I agree with a lot of what you said, but IAH does NOT rank poorly with regard to lucrative O&D. It's international O&D is some of the highest yielding nationwide thanks to the oil industry.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-30 05:12:59 and read 2943 times.

And how do you know they are facts.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-30 05:22:06 and read 2936 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 107):

And many of those destinations are already served by IAH.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: enilria
Posted 2013-01-30 05:58:06 and read 2883 times.

A healthy debate in this week's thread. I think the OP should get a nickel for every post in his thread.  

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: FlyingSicilian
Posted 2013-01-30 06:32:59 and read 2833 times.

Quoting AVENSAB727 (Reply 112):
And how do you know they are facts.

They are facts. IAH is not even near the largest hub per capita, even though it is the 5th largest metro, but as noted above IAH has some massive int'l O/D tied to F and J class demand which rakes in the money. IAH has some of the highest fares in the country and makes big money for UA

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-30 06:38:48 and read 2817 times.

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 115):

I see, but when it comes to traffic. It will switch back and forth seasonally with ORD.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-01-30 07:28:07 and read 2755 times.

Quoting boilerla (Reply 110):
There is ample amounts of data that show that while IAH is a lucrative fortress hub, UA has reasons to put its limited resources elsewhere

If it's a lucrative hub, why would they move resources to less profitable hubs, particularly when as a whole UA (and pretty much all legacy carriers) are breaking even at best  
Quoting boilerla (Reply 110):
Why do Houstonians believe that they are entitled to some sort of holy grail status with UA

Houston doesn't feel it's entitled to anything, that's why it's Houston.

Quoting boilerla (Reply 110):
For example LAX has lost several flights in the past couple of years, and has lost the most aside from CLE.

Both got several new destinations, which is more than IAH's goose egg

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-30 07:41:56 and read 2725 times.

Lets just wait and see, maybe UA is saving IAH for last. Who knows.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: ScottB
Posted 2013-01-30 10:13:58 and read 2590 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 106):
Just bear in mind that NK doesn't follow a hub-and-spoke connecting model.

Check out how they schedule FLL.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 106):
At this stage in the game, the persistent IAH whining by a select few individual only merits the name even more because it is relentless beyond all measurable means.

However, I apologize if this mild-mannered term managed to crawl under your skin so much. I won't use it again ever so loosely?

I'd say that the blind, persistent defense of UA is also relentless beyond all measurable means. But then when Smisek or one of his reports is signing your paycheck...

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 106):
pmCO could have expanded into a few more cities from Asia (such as ICN) or Latin America (SCL) yet never chose to do so.

SCL was flown at one point from IAH if memory serves but it was dropped.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 106):
Same with CM to PTY, among others.

I believe that CM & CO had an agreement to not directly compete between the U.S. and PTY -- which is why CM never added PTY-IAH or PTY-EWR.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 106):
I mean, for pete's sake, you still got the LOS flight after all. If the new UA had decided to pull that one, then I'd say you would have a problem on your hands. So far, that hasn't happened.

The LOS flight was added before the City of Houston chose to defy the guys in Willis Tower. And if UA can't make money on the oil industry and VFR traffic between Houston & Nigeria then they're really hopeless. Delta knew enough to publish the ATL-LOS flight with continuing flight numbers to/from IAH for several years.

Quoting boilerla (Reply 110):
Why do Houstonians believe that they are entitled to some sort of holy grail status with UA, whereby they get flights added all the time? And conversely, why do they feel so dejected when UA cuts a flight at IAH? Are they that insecure?

There's no "holy grail" entitlement complex in Houston. Why do people get so worked up when it is observed that UA continues to try to punish Houston for defying the will of Smisek? IAH is one of the two largest hubs in the system, located in a metro area with a robust and growing economy, with some of the highest average fares in the network, and yet of the 41 new destinations added to the UA hubs since the HOU FIS debacle, there wasn't a single potential addition from IAH that was better than the other 41?

Quoting boilerla (Reply 110):
For example LAX has lost several flights in the past couple of years, and has lost the most aside from CLE. Despite being the 2nd largest city in the country, and the largest O&D cache in the country, UA has shrunk here in LA.

I suppose that if UA management had said something along the lines of "we'll cut L.A. service if the FIS at SNA gets built" then the UA cuts at LAX might be more suspicious. But they've been imploding at LAX ever since the epic FAIL that was United Shuttle.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: AVENSAB727
Posted 2013-01-30 10:18:58 and read 2580 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 119):
The LOS flight was added before the City of Houston chose to defy the guys in Willis Tower. And if UA can't make money on the oil industry and VFR traffic between Houston & Nigeria then they're really hopeless. Delta knew enough to publish the ATL-LOS flight with continuing flight numbers to/from IAH for several years.

But why does LOS has anything to do with WN/HOU PR. mistake by UA.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2013-01-30 10:51:12 and read 2545 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 119):
Check out how they schedule FLL.

What does it matter anyway? NK hasn't made a dent in AA's fortress at MIA.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 119):
I'd say that the blind, persistent defense of UA is also relentless beyond all measurable means. But then when Smisek or one of his reports is signing your paycheck...

Whoa. I was never outright defending UA. If you actually read my post, either here or on other threads, I am actually quite jaded and upset by the merger outcome as a UA elite. I also have sided with all of you on the unnecessary drama UA has created in Houston as a result of the CBP decision.

I am not employed full-time nor part-time by any airline or airport. It always amazes me that people seem eager to jump to that conclusion vehemently when I try to present objective and factual data on these forums. I've been accused of being an AA employee before. Now, I guess I can add UA to that list??

Quoting ScottB (Reply 119):
The LOS flight was added before the City of Houston chose to defy the guys in Willis Tower. And if UA can't make money on the oil industry and VFR traffic between Houston & Nigeria then they're really hopeless. Delta knew enough to publish the ATL-LOS flight with continuing flight numbers to/from IAH for several years.

I can assure you with as much certainty as my left hand that even if LOS was scheduled to go live in November 2012 instead of November 2011, UA still would have flown the route. They're not complete morons to leave money on the table like that.

Notice how UA subsequently dropped IAD-ACC-LOS, a PMUA route, in favor of IAH-LOS nonstop, seeing more lucrative potential in the latter route as two oil capitals.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 2/1/2013:B6/DL/NK/UA/US
Username: mah4546
Posted 2013-01-30 10:58:29 and read 2530 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 121):
Quoting ScottB (Reply 119):
Check out how they schedule FLL.

What does it matter anyway? NK hasn't made a dent in AA's fortress at MIA.

Not to mention AA has pretty much made NK an also-ran in FLLPAP. I believe Spirit was at twice daily at some point; now AA has two daily 738s and Spirit can never keep a consistent schedule and sometimes has dipped as low as 3x weekly. Admitedly, it's at 6w right now, which is some of the highest NK has had there in a while, IIRC.

And seeing how FLLPAP has survived AA's slashing of virtually all non-hub flying, you know that route is a superstar for it.


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