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Topic: Carpatair PSA-FCO Runway Overrun At FCO
Username: Cure
Posted 2013-02-02 13:12:10 and read 9142 times.

Just popped out in the news (www.rainews24.it) and checked on www.ansa.it

A Carpatair (Romanian flight) landing from Pisa supposedly overrun the runway at Leonardo Da Vinci, Rome's Int'l Airport, which is supposedly closed now (??)

Any more accurate infos? Thanks in advance, I'll be able to read just later...

...more on tv: flight was operating for Alitalia (edited for more news)

[Edited 2013-02-02 13:13:45]

Topic: RE: Carpatair PSA-FCO Runway Overrun At FCO
Username: kaitak
Posted 2013-02-02 13:32:08 and read 9066 times.

Here's a (very!) rough translation of the story from RAI UNO, Italian TV:

"An aircraft ATR72, from Pisa and landing at Fiumicino, went off the track. Are in place flowing emergency vehicles. To learn how the agency Adnkronos on the aircraft there would be 46 people. Two were rescued from 118in code red, but they are not life threatening. Firefighters reported that the aircraft, there were no fires."

The airline has two ATR72-500s but operated by Alitalia, in its livery.

Topic: RE: Carpatair PSA-FCO Runway Overrun At FCO
Username: cornutt
Posted 2013-02-02 13:53:21 and read 8967 times.

That doesn't sound very good. Hope everyone on board is OK.

Topic: RE: Carpatair PSA-FCO Runway Overrun At FCO
Username: Cure
Posted 2013-02-02 14:13:26 and read 8868 times.

I'm reading the ATR is slightly banked at the side of the 3rd runway with broken undercarriage and damaged blades, debris lying on runway and no fire, but 6 injured, among them one seriously.

What livery is wearing the stranded aircraft?

Flight was operated with AZ, but I think the plane and crew was Carpatair...

On January the 7th the same flight had a serious problem after taking off from PSA and was forced to return...

Today the aircraft supposedly landed long in strong winds, and wind is already claimed as a major factor

First passengers interviewed said the plane "landed twice and hard"...

Topic: RE: Carpatair PSA-FCO Runway Overrun At FCO
Username: cornutt
Posted 2013-02-02 14:19:16 and read 8835 times.

Couple of tidbits from aviation-safety.net:

The aircraft involved appears to be YR-ATS.

Wind reported as 250 at 28 knots, gusting to 41.

Topic: RE: Carpatair PSA-FCO Runway Overrun At FCO
Username: Wolbo
Posted 2013-02-02 14:22:03 and read 8815 times.

http://www.youreporter.it/img.php?cut=1&w=943&h=280&quality=83&prefix=custom_&src=/uploads/images/home/incidente-aereo.jpg

Topic: RE: Carpatair PSA-FCO Runway Overrun At FCO
Username: Alasizon
Posted 2013-02-02 14:25:59 and read 8796 times.

Quoting Wolbo (Reply 5):

At first look, it appears that two of the blades on the prop may be sheared off partially

Topic: RE: Carpatair PSA-FCO Runway Overrun At FCO
Username: Cure
Posted 2013-02-02 14:31:48 and read 8774 times.

Dramatic contrast of air masses (warm and cold) today over central Italy, strong southwesterly winds suddendly replaced by northern gusts up to 70 kmh on the northern Appennines.

From YouReport.it I'm learning the aircraft is (sadly) in Alitalia colors with romanian numbers and crew (4). Co-pilot is the most seriously injured, but not at risk of life.

Wind can be certainly be a factor, but not the cause itself, since the outernmost runway towards the sea is the one currently used for landings, after the accident...

Topic: RE: Carpatair PSA-FCO Runway Overrun At FCO
Username: Aesma
Posted 2013-02-02 16:04:18 and read 8488 times.

Quoting Cure (Reply 7):
Dramatic contrast of air masses (warm and cold) today over central Italy, strong southwesterly winds suddendly replaced by northern gusts up to 70 kmh on the northern Appennines.

Then their take-off and flight must have already been pretty bumpy.

Topic: RE: Carpatair PSA-FCO Runway Overrun At FCO
Username: tjr16698
Posted 2013-02-02 16:27:56 and read 8413 times.

There are a series of photos here. Just click on the arrows
Seems like a flight attendant has injured her back and a passenger has a broken femur. Others were injured less seriously by items falling from the overhead bins.
http://www.corriere.it/cronache/foto...d86-11e2-8cda-116f437864e3.shtml#1

Topic: RE: Carpatair PSA-FCO Runway Overrun At FCO
Username: na
Posted 2013-02-03 04:31:43 and read 7545 times.

Looks like that the end for this bird, with the whole belly ripped open.

Topic: RE: Carpatair PSA-FCO Runway Overrun At FCO
Username: 71Zulu
Posted 2013-02-03 05:30:42 and read 7373 times.

Av Herald says it bounced hard on landing then right gear bent causing the veer off the runway, also says that the F/O has a serious spinal injury.

And I guess AZ got out there with some spray paint because the aircraft is completely white now, all AZ name logo and stripes removed.

http://avherald.com/h?article=45d25cc2&opt=0

Topic: RE: Carpatair PSA-FCO Runway Overrun At FCO
Username: rojo
Posted 2013-02-03 05:55:37 and read 7277 times.

An ex American Eagle frame N533AT... Looks like AZ only has 1 AT7, how are they going to operate flights thats that were supposed to be flown with this machine?

Topic: RE: Carpatair PSA-FCO Runway Overrun At FCO
Username: muellae
Posted 2013-02-03 06:32:45 and read 6946 times.

Anybody knows the crosswind limit of an ATR? For some type of airline and aircraft the crosswind there was already beyond the limits.

Topic: RE: Carpatair PSA-FCO Runway Overrun At FCO
Username: fpetrutiu
Posted 2013-02-03 07:06:08 and read 6638 times.

Surprised to see how fast they removed the Alitalia livery on one side leaving just the Romanian registration...

I believe Carpartair has been the subject of bad press in Italy just recently. Maybe that has something to do with it...

Topic: RE: Carpatair PSA-FCO Runway Overrun At FCO
Username: SXI899
Posted 2013-02-03 07:09:43 and read 6617 times.

Quoting muellae (Reply 13):
Anybody knows the crosswind limit of an ATR? For some type of airline and aircraft the crosswind there was already beyond the limits.

I believe that the max demonstrated crosswind on the ATR72 is 35kts.
Note that although the METAR indicated winds of 250 at 28 gusting 41, that was 12 minutes prior to the landing attempt, so the actual winds that the tower give the crew could have been different (ie. well within limits).

Topic: RE: Carpatair PSA-FCO Runway Overrun At FCO
Username: fpetrutiu
Posted 2013-02-03 07:19:24 and read 6536 times.

Quoting rojo (Reply 12):
An ex American Eagle frame N533AT... Looks like AZ only has 1 AT7, how are they going to operate flights thats that were supposed to be flown with this machine

They can lease another one. There are a few available on the market as well as they can supplement with another type for a short while

Topic: RE: Carpatair PSA-FCO Runway Overrun At FCO
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-02-03 09:11:27 and read 5623 times.

Acc to AVHerald carpatair is now suspended from flying.....

Topic: RE: Carpatair PSA-FCO Runway Overrun At FCO
Username: Thomas_Jaeger
Posted 2013-02-03 09:18:54 and read 5545 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 17):
Acc to AVHerald carpatair is now suspended from flying.....

Alitalia has temporarily suspended its wet-lease agreement with Carpatair for the two ATR 72-500s, this one (YR-ATS) involved in the incident and another one YR-ATR. Carpatair's own operations with their remaining fleet (1 B737-300, 3 Fokker 100, five Saab 2000s) are not affected.

Topic: RE: Carpatair PSA-FCO Runway Overrun At FCO
Username: Spacepope
Posted 2013-02-03 10:23:28 and read 5024 times.

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 14):
Surprised to see how fast they removed the Alitalia livery on one side leaving just the Romanian registration...

I'm surprised they painted over all the windows too.

I think this airframe is toast.

Topic: RE: Carpatair PSA-FCO Runway Overrun At FCO
Username: vio
Posted 2013-02-03 11:08:54 and read 4675 times.

I have flown with Carpatair quite a few times, both internal flights in Romania as well as inter-European flights; mostly on the Saab 2000 but also on their Fokkers. I have found Carpatair to have great service and awesome crews. I'm surprised this happened but before I give my (worthless) two cents, I want to know what the investigators have to say about this.

I hope this doesn't spell KRP's demise.

Topic: RE: Carpatair PSA-FCO Runway Overrun At FCO
Username: clydenairways
Posted 2013-02-03 11:32:40 and read 4490 times.

Quoting na (Reply 10):
Looks like that the end for this bird, with the whole belly ripped open.

Have to agree, it does look badly damaged and if the aircraft is not brand new then probably not worth an expensive repair.

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 14):
Surprised to see how fast they removed the Alitalia livery on one side leaving just the Romanian registration...

Yeah, very quick reaction by Alitalia to limit their association with this accident.

Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 11):
also says that the F/O has a serious spinal injury.

I hope the F/O and anybody else with injuries makes a positive recovery.

Topic: RE: Carpatair PSA-FCO Runway Overrun At FCO
Username: Cure
Posted 2013-02-03 17:19:39 and read 3529 times.

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 19):
I'm surprised they painted over all the windows too.

I guess it's the same plastic film it's used for advertisement on trains, buses...

Quoting SXI899 (Reply 15):
I believe that the max demonstrated crosswind on the ATR72 is 35kts.

I've just heard on tv with wet runway 35kt, dry 45kt. Don't actually know if it was wet or dry in FCO at that time?

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 14):
I believe Carpartair has been the subject of bad press in Italy just recently. Maybe that has something to do with it...

There has just been a bad trail of accidents and weird events on flights operated by Carpatair on behalf of Alitalia since march 2012 (AOI-FCO, PSA-FCO and BLQ-FCO), once it was a pressurization problem and they had to return, another time a fuel leaking, and I cannot be mor precise on that, but I don't think it's just a question of pilot unions ramping up a bad accident with 16 injured passengers and crews, I also guess standards of quality has been seen as jeopardized by the service of this particular company from Alitalia's point of view.

Topic: RE: Carpatair PSA-FCO Runway Overrun At FCO
Username: LH422
Posted 2013-02-04 01:48:39 and read 3049 times.

Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 11):
And I guess AZ got out there with some spray paint because the aircraft is completely white now, all AZ name logo and stripes removed.

Is this common practice? European news sites are reporting on the repainting.

http://www.lastampa.it/2013/02/04/it...6a8In7dX0ZhGFSj8sVdPCN/pagina.html (Italian)

Topic: RE: Carpatair PSA-FCO Runway Overrun At FCO
Username: papertec
Posted 2013-02-04 02:58:03 and read 2937 times.

Quoting LH422 (Reply 23):
Is this common practice? European news sites are reporting on the repainting.

Definitely not:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...ashed-alitalia-plane-a-881301.html

Topic: RE: Carpatair PSA-FCO Runway Overrun At FCO
Username: AR385
Posted 2013-02-04 03:02:02 and read 3040 times.

Quoting LH422 (Reply 23):
Is this common practice? European news sites are reporting on the repainting.

It´s pretty much SOP for all airlines.

You may wish to take a look in the database on airliners that have suffered an accident that does not necessarily make the hull unrecognizble. Within hours, the logo and the airline markings will be painted over.

Topic: RE: Carpatair PSA-FCO Runway Overrun At FCO
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2013-02-04 05:41:05 and read 2850 times.

Quoting LH422 (Reply 23):
Is this common practice? European news sites are reporting on the repainting.

An entire aircraft in 12-16 hours is unusual, but having the tail painted before dawn the next day is common.

Delta did that with a B727 at DFW.

It really depends upon the accident investigation authorities. If they allow the airline access to the wreckage, it's going to get painted over very, very quickly.

Topic: RE: Carpatair PSA-FCO Runway Overrun At FCO
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-04 11:18:23 and read 2557 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 26):
An entire aircraft in 12-16 hours is unusual, but having the tail painted before dawn the next day is common.

Indeed - there are quite a few examples you can find without too much hassle. I'm sure there are more out there, but here are a few photos:
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/middle/9/4/8/0077849.jpg
http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1026785/
http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2007/...garuda_tail_wideweb__470x317,0.jpg
http://www.telstarlogistics.typepad....stics/2007/08/china-airlines-.html
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Untit...mbia)/De-Havilland-Canada/1322603/
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Untit...lifornia)/Douglas-DC-9-14/0628495/
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Untit...okker-F-27-200-Friendship/1153792/
http://www.airliners.net/photo/China-Airlines/Boeing-747-409/0160801/

So it's a common-enough practise.

[Edited 2013-02-04 11:19:58]

[Edited 2013-02-04 11:29:16]

Topic: RE: Carpatair PSA-FCO Runway Overrun At FCO
Username: YYZYYT
Posted 2013-02-04 11:50:30 and read 2496 times.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 27):
So it's a common-enough practise.

Indeed - I can recall a few images from news that I have seen over the years that are not found in that list...

The thing I wondered about is why they would paint the windows as well... did Cure get it right when he suggested that a decal might have been used:

Quoting Cure (Reply 22):
I guess it's the same plastic film it's used for advertisement on trains, buses...

Does anyone know what they do nowadays? This repaint looks a lot cleaner than some of the above examples anfromme found - rather than seeing an AZ aircraft with a badly painted cover-up, observers now see an apparently untitled aircraft...

Topic: RE: Carpatair PSA-FCO Runway Overrun At FCO
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-04 12:22:05 and read 2447 times.

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 28):
Does anyone know what they do nowadays? This repaint looks a lot cleaner than some of the above examples anfromme found - rather than seeing an AZ aircraft with a badly painted cover-up, observers now see an apparently untitled aircraft...

Well, it's not that big an aircraft, and it actually looks like they went for an all-out attack with paint (rather than a clean job) - they even painted over all the cabin windows. Interesting, given that the Alitalia cheatline and titles don't run through the row of windows. But I suppose a bit easier to do if you have a spray-gun and you don't want to mask all the windows.

By the way, here are a few more examples I could find of this practise:
Air Florida 1982: http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/af90/2.shtml
Aloha Airlines 1988: http://richstokoe.com/wp-content/upl.../2012/11/b737-200-aloha-hawaii.jpg
Air Canada 1983: http://aviation-safety.net/photos/di...oto.php?id=19830602-1&vnr=2&kind=C
And finally - Scandinavian Airlines 1991:
Before: http://www.baaa-acro.com/photos/MD81-SAS-Stockholm.jpg
During: http://user.it.uu.se/~bengts/gottrora.jpg
After: http://hem.passagen.se/gottrora/sk751.jpg


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