Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5679642/

Topic: QF To BER?
Username: delta777jet
Posted 2013-02-03 05:52:08 and read 8554 times.

I was wondering , with the current EK/QF Alliance and the fact that EK cannot fly to more destinations in Germany (EK urgently wants to fly to BER) could Qantas fly SYD/MEL - DXB - BER (TXL/SXF) vv. ! That would give EK direct access to Berlin via QF! Any thoughts ?

Topic: RE: QF To BER?
Username: Fuling
Posted 2013-02-03 06:02:57 and read 8477 times.

I thought the same too. Not thinking frame numbers it would use, but an A332 from PER - DXB - BER would be alright wouldn't it?

Topic: RE: QF To BER?
Username: rutankrd
Posted 2013-02-03 06:12:05 and read 8412 times.

Quoting delta777jet (Thread starter):
(EK urgently wants to fly to BER) could Qantas fly SYD/MEL - DXB - BER (TXL/SXF) vv. ! That would give EK direct access to Berlin via QF! Any thoughts ?

Its been proffered before however i don't think EK could put their code on the DXB- TXL sector of a potential QF flight without route authority.

The big if - Were QF5/6 rotations retained and transferred lies around potential AB connectivity within Oneworld rather than EK ?

I would suggest that currently it would just add cost (Retain loses incurred of the FRA operation).

Topic: RE: QF To BER?
Username: behramjee
Posted 2013-02-03 06:15:13 and read 8395 times.

DXB based carriers cant fly to BER as they have used up all of their entitled capacity to Germany. The same applies to AUH based ones too hence why you see Air Berlin operating TXL-AUH versus EY.

Topic: RE: QF To BER?
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2013-02-03 06:33:33 and read 8299 times.

I have attempted to find what changes there have been made to the Germany - Australia bilateral but without success. I have found references that state changes in an MOU but that they were not ratified and are not in force. Under the original bilateral agreement signed between the two countries the only access a designated carrier from Australia has in Germany is FRA. If someone has access to an in force later agreement, please could they post a link?

If the points of access for Australian carriers has not been changed then QF is limited to FRA. The original agreement does provide for routing via points in the Middle East, so SYD-DXB-FRA would be permissible. But there is no suggestion that QF could simply swap FRA for BER in that agreement (not surprising given the four-power status of Berlin at the time the agreement was signed.) Nor, in any of the statements to date, has QF indicated a willingness to introduce new routes to Europe in the short to medium term.

The other question is, if QF could not make money on the most attractive destination (in aviation terms) in Germany, how can they expect to make money operating services into what many Germans regard as a low-yield destination? EK might because of their lower cost base. Could QF do the same while still claiming to be an Australian carrier with flights originating in Australia? To benefit from a lower cost base they would have to operate out of DXB (or some other Asian port) but if they do that will they still be regarded as Australian by the German authorities?

Given opposition to EK increasing the number of destinations served, can we imagine the German authorities approving a back-door to QF?

Topic: RE: QF To BER?
Username: DolphinAir747
Posted 2013-02-03 08:23:07 and read 7870 times.

Better option: QF should have made an alliance with QR, which flies to TXL, instead of with EK. All-around it would have been a better deal anyways.

Topic: RE: QF To BER?
Username: flyingalex
Posted 2013-02-03 08:59:19 and read 7714 times.

[Out of the box idea]
If the Germany/Australia bilateral really does limit QF to FRA, and EK desperately wants to serve Berlin while being limited in the total number of gateways in Germany, then maybe they could stop serving FRA and start flying to BER instead, while letting QF connect FRA to DXB with increased frequencies?
[/Out of the box idea]

The above will never happen, of course, but it probably would be within the scope of the existing bilaterals. The problem is that EK are only interested in traffic on their own metal, and there is no way they'll leave FRA.

Topic: RE: QF To BER?
Username: FlyCaledonian
Posted 2013-02-03 09:02:33 and read 7692 times.

Could QF operate Australia-DXB-FRA say twice daily, with EK switching it's authority from FRA to BER or another German port? (I'm assuming QF/EK can operate as a JSA in such a scenario)

Topic: RE: QF To BER?
Username: LJ
Posted 2013-02-03 11:09:04 and read 7321 times.

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 7):
Could QF operate Australia-DXB-FRA say twice daily, with EK switching it's authority from FRA to BER or another German port? (I'm assuming QF/EK can operate as a JSA in such a scenario)

As mentioned previously, probably not within a QF/EK JSA. If you want to oeprate a route as a joint venture, both airlines must have traffic rights. If EK switches its authority to BER, than it cannot serve FRA (either with own metal or with a QF aircraft).

Topic: RE: QF To BER?
Username: delta777jet
Posted 2013-02-03 15:26:46 and read 5918 times.

Well , EK used to put their Code on UL's flights fom SXF-DXZb-CMB in the early 2000's !

Topic: RE: QF To BER?
Username: jsoprano
Posted 2013-02-03 15:55:32 and read 5706 times.

Quoting delta777jet (Reply 9):

They probably didn't fly to HAM at that time, so they were still within the 4 ports limit.

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 7):

Although hell will freeze over before EK gives up FRA for BER, I think this is not possible unless EY vacates FRA as well, as the 4 port limitation applies to all UAE carriers combined. This is why Etihad cannot fly to BER either, because they are stuck with the 4 ports that Emirates elected in the first place.

Topic: RE: QF To BER?
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2013-02-03 16:01:23 and read 5674 times.

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 5):
QF should have made an alliance with QR, which flies to TXL, instead of with EK.

That assumes that BER is worth more than the current arrangement. For QF EK offers greater access not just to Europe but to the North and East African regions from a greater number of points in Australia. While QR serves MEL and PER, EK is able to serve SYD, MEL, BNE, PER and ADL, with additional room for expansion under the enhanced regional access programme. This gives far greater opportunity for code shares generating revenue for QF than an alliance with QR would.

I am sure that Alan Joyce and his team at QF would have looked at various alternatives but, with the information that they have and we might not, made the decision to go with EK as the best option.

Topic: RE: QF To BER?
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2013-02-03 16:13:56 and read 5600 times.

In a press release issue today QF has announced that

Quote:
Qantas has also brought forward the end date for its loss-making Frankfurt services by six months to 15 April 2013.

Expansion is clearly focused on Asia with no plans of new routes in Europe being announced.

http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airl...a-releases/feb-2013/5486/global/en

Topic: RE: QF To BER?
Username: DolphinAir747
Posted 2013-02-03 16:43:22 and read 5391 times.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 11):
That assumes that BER is worth more than the current arrangement. For QF EK offers greater access not just to Europe but to the North and East African regions from a greater number of points in Australia. While QR serves MEL and PER, EK is able to serve SYD, MEL, BNE, PER and ADL, with additional room for expansion under the enhanced regional access programme. This gives far greater opportunity for code shares generating revenue for QF than an alliance with QR would.

No, flying to TXL is only an extra benefit of what would have been a more cooperative arrangement in 1W. On the contrary, with the Australia-Qatar bilateral, QF could use its currently unsued frequencies to fly SYD-DOH and MEL-DOH, with QR flying DOH-PER and DOH-BNE. QR has a strong network in Europe, Africa, and the Middle East as well, including some points not flown to by EK. QF would also have been able to keep its close cooperation with BA, QR's sponsor in 1W.

Topic: RE: QF To BER?
Username: JQflightie
Posted 2013-02-03 21:53:29 and read 4207 times.

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 13):
No, flying to TXL is only an extra benefit of what would have been a more cooperative arrangement in 1W. On the contrary, with the Australia-Qatar bilateral, QF could use its currently unsued frequencies to fly SYD-DOH and MEL-DOH, with QR flying DOH-PER and DOH-BNE. QR has a strong network in Europe, Africa, and the Middle East as well, including some points not flown to by EK. QF would also have been able to keep its close cooperation with BA, QR's sponsor in 1W.

Now, now, that would just be the common sense approach now wouldnt it!!      
Asia it is for us at QF! Maybe it has something to do with AB?What a Mess;
AB .....Sponsered by BA to enter OneWorld, who then gets a majority of it bought by EY who is in no alliance, then AB starts a heavy codeshare deal with AF/KL (of which im a FF and loyal customer to SkyTeam) ... maybe its safer that QF doesnt fly into BER ? But i would love to see PER-DXB-BER on A332's

Topic: RE: QF To BER?
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2013-02-04 00:17:17 and read 3429 times.

When?


filler

filler

David

Topic: RE: QF To BER?
Username: SKAirbus
Posted 2013-02-04 02:16:19 and read 2657 times.

Sounds like another example of German protectionism damaging business!

Topic: RE: QF To BER?
Username: LH422
Posted 2013-02-04 02:30:00 and read 2567 times.

Quoting jsoprano (Reply 10):
Although hell will freeze over before EK gives up FRA for BER, I think this is not possible unless EY vacates FRA as well, as the 4 port limitation applies to all UAE carriers combined. This is why Etihad cannot fly to BER either, because they are stuck with the 4 ports that Emirates elected in the first place.

Yes, this is the case, and EY will surely not give up FRA in favor of BER.

QF have also moved forward the last flight into FRA by half a year. The last flight will now be April 16.  

http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20130204/pdf/42ctm8nyxl52zm.pdf


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/