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Topic: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: KarlB737
Posted 2013-02-03 10:16:46 and read 11575 times.

It has been reported that on Monday, February 4, 2013 at 11:00am there will be a "major air service announcement" at GRR. The local media has already been notified according to the writeup linked below. While no specifics or hints are visable it is known that GRR had met last year with USAirways about getting them to return to western Michigan. It appears more likely that said announcement may relate to whatever Southwest intends to offer at GRR as it replaces AirTran there.

As this is Super Bowl Sunday when I am making this post in just one day we will know the answers. Your speculations or inside information is welcomed.

Courtesy: MLive

Ford Airport Alerts Media To 'Major Air Service Announcement' Next Week, But Mum On Specifics

http://www.mlive.com/business/west-m...lerts_media_to_m.html#incart_river

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: southwest737500
Posted 2013-02-03 10:19:36 and read 11570 times.

I'm guessing SWA service to BWI,MDW,DEN, PHX

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: b757capt
Posted 2013-02-03 10:27:19 and read 11490 times.

Doesn't WN release their schedule on the 4th?

I sure wish it was US launching service....

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: wingnutmn
Posted 2013-02-03 10:31:31 and read 11466 times.

NK to start DFW, FLL and ORD?

Wingnut

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: YNGguins
Posted 2013-02-03 10:34:46 and read 11430 times.

I don't think there is any question about it.... Southwest is the announcement.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: sdoyon
Posted 2013-02-03 10:41:16 and read 11400 times.

Currently FL has year-round service to BWI (2xD) and MCO (1xD) as well as seasonal service to RSW and FLL (both slated to end 4/13/13).

If I were a betting man, I would assume that BWI and MCO service would transition as is, and we'd see the introduction of another Florida destination and a western connection point. My guesses are FLL/TPA for Florida and DEN. DEN would allow WN to squeeze F9, much like it has in DAY and CAK.

Again, that's if I were a betting man  

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: JBo
Posted 2013-02-03 11:03:06 and read 11242 times.

I'm guessing it's Southwest as well, I haven't heard any other rumblings about new service coming to GRR.

As far as US coming to GRR is concerned, I think that idea is dependent upon what happens with the potential AA merger. There wouldn't be a whole lot of point in US setting up facilities in GRR only to eventually consolodate into the AA counter.

I wouldn't be surprised to see WN add GRR-DEN just to put the squeeze on what's left of F9's service there.

Does anyone know how FL's station is currently staffed in GRR? I imagine they have above-wing counter/gate staff, but if they contract out the ramp I can imagine WN would want to bring that all in-house, so it could be a "job creating" announcement, too.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2013-02-03 11:11:30 and read 11203 times.

Quoting YNGguins (Reply 4):

I don't think there is any question about it.... Southwest is the announcement.

If this is the case (and like you, I bet it is), I expect G4 to pack up and move from GRR and go to AZO, LAN, or both. G4 could start service from AZO-SFB/AZA (the first two Airbus bases for G4) as an Airbus destination, as the A319 can handle AZO's short runway unlike the MD-80. AZO was also a strong destination for Direct Air and has a beautiful new and horribly underutilized terminal. As for LAN, I could see G4 moving the GRR routes from MD-80 only bases (PIE, LAS, FLL) over to LAN to add to the existing SFB service.

That said, I expect WN to start GRR with 4-5 flights, similar to other converted FL stations that are GRR's size. Convert the 2 BWI and 1 MCO flights from WN to FL metal, and add service to DEN (for sure) and possibly LAS as well, and voila... you've got a strong new WN city. I don't expect MDW service because WN discontinued IND-MDW, which is similar in length.

Quoting JBo (Reply 6):
As far as US coming to GRR is concerned, I think that idea is dependent upon what happens with the potential AA merger.

I think that all new potential US flights are in a holding pattern until they decide whether to merge with AA or not. And I bet there's both a Plan A (merger) and a Plan B (backup if AA stays independent) in Tempe.

Quoting JBo (Reply 6):
but if they contract out the ramp I can imagine WN would want to bring that all in-house, so it could be a "job creating" announcement, too.

Not necessarily. If a WN station has fewer than 12(?) departures per day, the ground work can be contracted out per the latest ground contract. There is a departure-based cap on contracted ground work (I think 15% of departures). This flexibility is also the reason why WN abandoned the eight-flight rule in favor of a 15% ROI requirement for new stations (and why many of the FL station conversions have between two and five flights per day).

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: YNGguins
Posted 2013-02-03 11:14:00 and read 11190 times.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 7):

When G4 announced service to Lansing, I think that was the beginning of the end for G4 at GRR... I think tomorrow's announcement will expedite the departure from GRR and the expansion of service at LAN.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: tjwgrr
Posted 2013-02-03 13:25:49 and read 10847 times.

Quoting YNGguins (Reply 4):
I don't think there is any question about it.... Southwest is the announcement.

No doubt about it. It was posted on another thread, and I verified, GRR is no longer bookable online from September forward on AirTran.com.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 7):
That said, I expect WN to start GRR with 4-5 flights, similar to other converted FL stations that are GRR's size. Convert the 2 BWI and 1 MCO flights from WN to FL metal, and add service to DEN (for sure) and possibly LAS as well, and voila... you've got a strong new WN city. I don't expect MDW service because WN discontinued IND-MDW, which is similar in length.


My GRR predictions:
BWI x3
MCO x1
DEN x1-2

and perhaps (hopefully) TPA and RSW seasonally like FL did.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-02-03 13:32:47 and read 10805 times.

The story is picking up play in the SEA and ATL media outlets as well. Perhaps AS SEA-GRR or WN ATL-GRR.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: KingAir200
Posted 2013-02-03 13:49:39 and read 10727 times.

Quoting JBo (Reply 6):
Does anyone know how FL's station is currently staffed in GRR?

Servisair above and below wing.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: JBo
Posted 2013-02-03 14:27:30 and read 10582 times.

Quoting KingAir200 (Reply 11):

Servisair above and below wing.

So then there's a chance that we could see WN implement their own gate staff at least above-wing then.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: B4REAL
Posted 2013-02-03 14:34:22 and read 10547 times.

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 1):
I'm guessing SWA service to BWI,MDW,DEN, PHX

Good guesses, I'll go for 3 of those 4. PHX seems the reach IMHO.

Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 9):
My GRR predictions:
BWI x3
MCO x1
DEN x1-2

That's a good guess also.

I'll throw out the following:

BWI
MDW
BNA

I think Nashville is the dark horse. We'll see however!

Lastly, I am extremely skeptical of the use of the word "major" in all of this. Makes me think of cargo (not likely, no real facilities for serious cargo), an International flight (who?, nobody really. Unless DL could make a CRJ go GRR-AMS LOL!!!) or the more likely new carrier / new carrier offering with substatial service.

[Edited 2013-02-03 14:37:58]

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2013-02-03 14:41:29 and read 10507 times.

Quoting JBo (Reply 12):
So then there's a chance that we could see WN implement their own gate staff at least above-wing then.

IMO, not if there's fewer than eight flights at GRR. One of the reasons that the eight-flight rule was there in the first place is because WN needed a minimum of eight flights to run a station profitably with WN employees.

Now that lower-cost contract employees can be used if a WN station has 12 flights or less, the eight-flight rule is no longer needed.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2013-02-03 14:50:03 and read 10452 times.

Quoting B4REAL (Reply 13):
an International flight (who?, nobody really. Unless DL could make a CRJ go GRR-AMS LOL!!!)

There is already international service from GRR - AC Express to YYZ. Unless, of course, someone could fly from Mexico or the Caribbean to GRR. That could qualify as a "big announcement" and help defend against SY at LAN.

I'm sticking by my prediction of an FL-to-WN conversion, though. If that's the case, I wonder if other remaining domestic FL-only cities like MEM will get WN service?

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-02-03 14:54:11 and read 10421 times.

Quoting B4REAL (Reply 13):
MDW

At a 119 NM and 135 statute miles I think MDW-GRR is to close.

If it is a WN announcement I think
DEN-GRR
ATL-GRR
BWI-GRR

I offer DEN as DEN in my mind take on the appearance of WN gateway to the west and quite a bit closer than PHX.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: sdoyon
Posted 2013-02-03 14:56:40 and read 10404 times.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 15):
I wonder if other remaining domestic FL-only cities like MEM will get WN service?

From the WN Prediction Thread, it looks like MEM is staying FL, but being beefed up with connections to MDW, BWI, etc...

Quoting JBo (Reply 12):
I think Nashville is the dark horse. We'll see however!

I thought about BNA too, but BWI offers all of the same connections and is a larger station. Some routes may be more circuitous (e.g. GRR-BWI-SAN v. GRR-BNA-SAN), but I think BWI will win this one out. Not to say BNA couldn't be added later though!

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2013-02-03 15:05:08 and read 10343 times.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 15):
I'm sticking by my prediction of an FL-to-WN conversion, though.

If it really a prediction when there are facts already showing up pointing to it? LOL

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: michiganatc
Posted 2013-02-03 17:26:52 and read 9627 times.

I heard from a handful of GRR airport employees that the Kent County Airport (GRR) has asked WN for:

GRR-DEN
GRR-PHX
GRR-LAX
GRR-BWI
GRR-MCO
GRR-HOU

With that said, I would ask for GRR-LAX too, doesn't mean I'd get it....but would be pretty frickin sweet!!

I just wish that Delta would give us a SLC flight already. United's Denver route does awesome and I know a DL SLC flight would do real well too. MSN just got a SLC flight...maybe we're next?  

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-02-03 17:44:35 and read 9479 times.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 7):
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 10):

I don't expect MDW. It is clear that WN won't do service anymore unless there is local market. I don't expect the announcement is Alaska.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-02-03 17:47:20 and read 9459 times.

Quoting sdoyon (Reply 17):

WN would add STL before BNA.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: Kcrwflyer
Posted 2013-02-03 18:08:10 and read 9294 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 10):
The story is picking up play in the SEA and ATL media outlets as well. Perhaps AS SEA-GRR or WN ATL-GRR.

If anyone flies GRR-SEA I will eat five large, cooked, crows.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 16):
At a 119 NM and 135 statute miles I think MDW-GRR is to close.

I don't believe in the too short argument. Isn't there a rather massive lake between the two areas? A route that short can have a very low fare and still turn a profit. I'm sure it will be a far better alternative than driving.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-02-03 18:10:53 and read 9277 times.

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 22):

The drive between Chicago and GRR isn't that bad. Lots of Chicagoans have weekend condos and cabins in MI. MKE us another story however. I think someone like 9K could fly MKE GRR and do well.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: iFlyLOTs
Posted 2013-02-03 18:17:57 and read 9236 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 16):
At a 119 NM and 135 statute miles I think MDW-GRR is to close.

You have to remember that actual mileage between the two cities by car is more like 200 miles by car and if traffic is bad (which happens quite frequently near Gary where I-65 and I-80/94 meet) can be almost a four hour drive.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2013-02-03 18:43:27 and read 9326 times.

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 24):
You have to remember that actual mileage between the two cities by car is more like 200 miles by car and if traffic is bad (which happens quite frequently near Gary where I-65 and I-80/94 meet) can be almost a four hour drive.

Downtown to Downtown is 176 miles. Ideal driving conditions 2 hrs 40 mins. Now...ideal and Chicago traffic usually never happens so add another hour or 2 to it. LOL

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: b757capt
Posted 2013-02-03 18:52:48 and read 9257 times.

If MDW-GRR one thing will be sure. Southwest would be banking on connections. Very different from the business plan that made the corporation so successful.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: SLCUT2777
Posted 2013-02-03 20:39:37 and read 9094 times.

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 19):
I just wish that Delta would give us a SLC flight already. United's Denver route does awesome and I know a DL SLC flight would do real well too. MSN just got a SLC flight...maybe we're next?

UA did GRR-DEN for a number of years, didn't work, but DL has managed to get SLC-IND a go since the NW merger, and since GRR has similar demography to IND I can't helpe but think they might opt for it someday.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2013-02-03 21:12:49 and read 8872 times.

DL is not adding SLC-GRR and anyways they wouldn't have a much dog-and-pony show media hype PR event like whatever is planned for tomorrow.

It is mostly an announcement of the new/realigned WN/FL service.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: wnflyguy
Posted 2013-02-03 21:43:45 and read 8693 times.

I think it's WN service with 2 BWI 1 MCO and 1 DEN or 2 BWI, 2 STL and 1 MCO.
wnfg

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-02-04 02:58:51 and read 8093 times.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 27):

United still does GRR-DEN and in the summer they go to 2x. It must work quite well

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: tjwgrr
Posted 2013-02-04 03:04:58 and read 8092 times.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 27):
UA did GRR-DEN for a number of years, didn't work,

Huh? This has been an active UAL route for a number of years....

Currently an A319 DEN-GRR, and a CR7 GRR-DEN. Goes back to 2x daily later this month DEN-GRR A319/ CR7, GRR-DEN CR7 x2

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: airliner371
Posted 2013-02-04 03:26:41 and read 8032 times.

How long until F9 ends GRR-DEN?

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: AirDance
Posted 2013-02-04 04:19:10 and read 8019 times.

The Southwest Airlines Route map is showing that GRR picks up direct service to BWI, DEN, MCO, and STL. Though the booking engine is currently not allowing you to see the flight schedule/purchase a flight.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: michiganatc
Posted 2013-02-04 04:36:22 and read 7854 times.

Quoting AirDance (Reply 33):
The Southwest Airlines Route map is showing that GRR picks up direct service to BWI, DEN, MCO, and STL. Though the booking engine is currently not allowing you to see the flight schedule/purchase a flight.

Wow, I thought for sure we'd get a HOU flight. Not surprised at all that MDW and ATL didn't make the cut though.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: michiganatc
Posted 2013-02-04 04:47:33 and read 7800 times.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 28):
DL is not adding SLC-GRR and anyways they wouldn't have a much dog-and-pony show media hype PR event like whatever is planned for tomorrow.

There's no doubt that this announcement is about WN today. My point is that I'm very surprised we don't have a SLC flight right now. We have an abundant amount of eastbound flights but only a small amount of westbound flights (disregarding charter service...Allegiant).

The Grand Rapids Press reported last year that the #1 destination from GRR is SFO. SLC would be a perfect feeder for that route. I don't recall if United still does this, but recently their morning A320 departure to ORD was a through flight that continued to SFO.

...just sayin' (Delta)  

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: Sligo
Posted 2013-02-04 05:16:25 and read 7615 times.

What is the smallest DL-family a/c that can make a GRR-SLC run year-round?

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: michiganatc
Posted 2013-02-04 05:19:46 and read 7600 times.

Quoting Sligo (Reply 36):
What is the smallest DL-family a/c that can make a GRR-SLC run year-round?

I would assume SKW could easily run a CRJ7. Think the 200 wouldn't have the range...and that flight would suck. Tall guy, abnormally low windows, 2+30 flight= neck ache.

[Edited 2013-02-04 05:21:01]

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2013-02-04 05:25:06 and read 7600 times.

Quoting AirDance (Reply 33):
The Southwest Airlines Route map is showing that GRR picks up direct service to BWI, DEN, MCO, and STL. Though the booking engine is currently not allowing you to see the flight schedule/purchase a flight.

Yep, I was going to post the same thing. The WN route map shows:
BWI
DEN
MCO
STL

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 35):
There's no doubt that this announcement is about WN today. My point is that I'm very surprised we don't have a SLC flight right now. We have an abundant amount of eastbound flights but only a small amount of westbound flights (disregarding charter service...Allegiant).

There are numerous mid-sized cities in the Midwest and East Coast that do not have DL service to SLC. The vast majority of connections can be easily routed via MSP. The only city-pairs this impacts are many of the secondary markets on the west coast that are not connected to DTW, ATL, or MSP.
PIT, CMH, CLE, MKE, RDU, JAX etc. do not currently have nonstop service to SLC, similar to GRR.

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 35):
The Grand Rapids Press reported last year that the #1 destination from GRR is SFO. SLC would be a perfect feeder for that route. I don't recall if United still does this, but recently their morning A320 departure to ORD was a through flight that continued to SFO.

I'd surprised that SFO is the #1 destination from GRR. Usually MCO is number 1 for most similar markets, closely followed by NYC and LAX. LAX in almost every case has more passengers than SFO.

Quoting Sligo (Reply 36):
What is the smallest DL-family a/c that can make a GRR-SLC run year-round?

CR7 or CR9. Rather long flight for passengers even on that type of aircraft including passenger confort. 3+ even on a CR7 gets rather uncomfortable.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2013-02-04 05:38:06 and read 7596 times.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 38):
Yep, I was going to post the same thing. The WN route map shows:
BWI
DEN
MCO
STL

Looks like BWI 3x, DEN 1x, MCO 1x and STL 1x. Not a bad schedule with a nice gain in seats compared to FL's current schedule, though room for growth too.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: michiganatc
Posted 2013-02-04 05:38:08 and read 7488 times.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 38):
I'd surprised that SFO is the #1 destination from GRR. Usually MCO is number 1 for most similar markets, closely followed by NYC and LAX. LAX in almost every case has more passengers than SFO.

I was surprised too. It was the top 10 list and Orlando was around #3 if I remmber correctly. I've been trying to find the article...I'll work on that more.

To add to my last post....

GRR-SLC is 1188NM
GRR-DEN is 896NM

CRJ2 Range: 1229NM
CRJ7 Range: 1434NM (+300 for ER)
CRJ9 Range: 1350NM (+300 for ER)
E170/E175 Range: 1809NM (2100NM LR)

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2013-02-04 05:53:56 and read 7417 times.

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 40):
CRJ2 Range: 1229NM
CRJ7 Range: 1434NM (+300 for ER)
CRJ9 Range: 1350NM (+300 for ER)
E170/E175 Range: 1809NM (2100NM LR)

DL will not operate a CRJ-200 on a route more than 750 miles, and is trying to get them down to less than 450 miles or less.

DL does not operate any E170/E175s out of the SLC hub.

It could be CR7/CR9 if they wanted to, as IND-SLC is currently flown with a CR7. However gateways like SEA, PDX, GEG, SFO, SMF, SJC, LAX, PHX, SAN, YVR can all easily be connected to over MSP. Plus, DTW is such a short flight to/from GRR that DTW provides easy connections in all directions. Many people headed to the west coast from GRR connect over DTW, and even ATL.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: 777ER
Posted 2013-02-04 05:57:51 and read 7337 times.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 39):

Source for the possible route limits?

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: michiganatc
Posted 2013-02-04 06:07:32 and read 7296 times.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 38):
PIT, CMH, CLE, MKE, RDU, JAX etc. do not currently have nonstop service to SLC, similar to GRR.

Yes, but the above airports are in a completely different category. GRR is in the Midwest, we border the Central Time Zone and could be flown on an RJ. PIT, RDU and JAX are East Coast and would require a mainline flight.

CLE and MKE are both hubs of other airlines and have plenty of other options and service. It's doubtful that a SLC flight would even be in demand there.

GRR has a huge business traveler base due to the large amount of corporations based here. Business and leisure travelers would benefit. Adding 1 strategically placed daily RT to SLC would not be that huge of a risk. (Of course I'm partial to the idea though)  

Again, I'll bring up my point that MSN just got a direct SLC flight. They are a very similar market to us, if not weaker.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-02-04 06:16:59 and read 7203 times.

I don't believe that SFO is the #1 destination from GRR. Maybe for cities with no nonstop service but I'd expect LAX and even BOS to be bigger. It would be very odd indeed for any city to not have as its #1 market a destination served nonstop.

If it is indeed BWI, DEN, STL and MCO I'm not surprised at all. I knew it wouldn't be HOU or BNA as STL is a better connect hub for GRR than the other two.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: Web
Posted 2013-02-04 07:04:15 and read 6902 times.

Mlive has a little more info. Start date August 11.

http://www.mlive.com/business/west-m...s_date_f.html#incart_river_default

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-02-04 07:12:14 and read 6761 times.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 32):
How long until F9 ends GRR-DEN?

I'm not sure WN one daily flight will chase F9 off and to DEN of all places. F9 currently offers the service less than daily on Wednesday's and Friday's. If the prices are comparable in my mind it's going to come to which day and which time of day people want to fly.

F9 still still offers IFE: WN doesn't. Although GRR-DEN is only a two and half hour flight for those traveling with younger children the IFE can be worth its wait in gold. F9 also offers the ambiance of the zoo on their tails. I've seen children (future spotters I suppose) in the 5-9 age group watching intently as a bank of F9 flights arrive in DEN identifying the critters.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: Flytravel
Posted 2013-02-04 07:17:51 and read 6705 times.

I don't think F9 will stick on the route as there are better routes for F9 to fly. It's too much competition with UA and WN for GRR. It's not like the GRR region is the size of the CVG region.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-02-04 07:18:43 and read 6718 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 46):
F9 still still offers IFE

I know A.netters place a high value on that but most people dont. If they did, AS, US and WN would never fly flights beyond 2 hours (yes, I know AS has digiplayers). The bigger advantage for F9 is an AM departure while WN's is a late PM departure from GRR. If UA decides to not ad their 2nd daily DEN-GRR, capacity wont be much unchanged and market stimulation will pick up the additional capacity. I hope F9 doesnt drop. Maybe F9 would add LAN. If I was the LAN airport director, Id be on the phone to F9 HDQ.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: KarlB737
Posted 2013-02-04 07:52:10 and read 6631 times.

Courtesy: WOOD-TV, Grand Rapids

Ford Airport Adds Southwest Airlines

http://www.woodtv.com/dpp/news/local...ord-airport-and-southwest-airlines



Courtesy: WZZM-TV, Grand Rapids

Southwest Coming To Ford International

http://www.wzzm13.com/news/article/2...hwest-coming-to-Ford-International

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: KarlB737
Posted 2013-02-04 09:10:03 and read 5842 times.

Courtesy: Southwest Airlines Press Release

Double Up! Southwest Airlines And AirTran Airways Extend Schedules Through Late September, Bringing Southwest Service To Grand Rapids

http://www.swamedia.com/releases/dou...-southwest-service-to-grand-rapids

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: 9w748capt
Posted 2013-02-04 09:13:40 and read 5730 times.

Wow - great news for GRR, but a major blow to AZO (my hometown). That nice new terminal there reminds of Mirabel!

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: AirDance
Posted 2013-02-04 14:54:42 and read 4685 times.

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 51):

Wow - great news for GRR, but a major blow to AZO (my hometown).

If WN adds additional service to Florida and/or Las Vegas from GRR, we could possibly see Allegiant Air relocate some service to AZO. In the end this might be the break AZO needs! Direct Air showed that AZO can sustain service year round to PGD and SFB.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: burnsie28
Posted 2013-02-04 16:49:22 and read 4443 times.

I like how they are making a big deal about this... then everyone forgets to mention that it really isn't much for new service since they are replacing FL.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2013-02-04 17:11:55 and read 4378 times.

Quoting AirDance (Reply 52):
If WN adds additional service to Florida and/or Las Vegas from GRR, we could possibly see Allegiant Air relocate some service to AZO. In the end this might be the break AZO needs! Direct Air showed that AZO can sustain service year round to PGD and SFB.

The Mad Dogs can't handle AZO's runway reliably, but the new Airbuses coming online can... and I wouldn't be surprised to see G4 start AZO with SFB to start.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: usflyguy
Posted 2013-02-04 17:56:25 and read 4304 times.

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 53):
I like how they are making a big deal about this... then everyone forgets to mention that it really isn't much for new service since they are replacing FL.

Replacing FL's 4 daily 717's with WN's 6 daily 737's including new flights to STL and DEN... It's something for a small airport like that to be proud of and if it doesn't get the PR and people don't use it, they'll lose it.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: tjwgrr
Posted 2013-02-05 04:59:16 and read 3870 times.

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 53):
I like how they are making a big deal about this... then everyone forgets to mention that it really isn't much for new service since they are replacing FL.

Doubling the number flights (since TPA and RSW were seasonal) with connections to the west, far more connecting destination options, and a substantial increase in the number of seats are a big deal to me.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: swacle
Posted 2013-02-05 09:53:05 and read 3679 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 46):
F9 still still offers IFE: WN doesn't.

Ummm....Inflight wifi including streaming live TV and Movies does not count as IFE? Heavy and expensive seat back monitors do not need to be included for IFE to be offered when every person that boards a flight these days has a laptop, tablet, smart phone, or iPod capable of connecting to a wifi network.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: KingAir200
Posted 2013-02-05 11:24:24 and read 3551 times.

I'm interested to see what, if any, changes DL will make to the GRR schedule after the announcement. I suppose UA too, though they're not as invested in the GRR market.

[Edited 2013-02-05 11:25:10]

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2013-02-05 12:02:15 and read 3463 times.

Quoting KingAir200 (Reply 58):
I'm interested to see what, if any, changes DL will make to the GRR schedule after the announcement. I suppose UA too, though they're not as invested in the GRR market.

I'd expect maybe more capacity on GRR-MSP but upgauging to more mainline on fewer flights.
I'm surprised CVG-GRR is still flown 3x/day.

GRR gets more mainline flights and capacity during the summer months versus the slower winter period now.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: 9w748capt
Posted 2013-02-05 12:45:51 and read 3395 times.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 54):
Quoting AirDance (Reply 52):
If WN adds additional service to Florida and/or Las Vegas from GRR, we could possibly see Allegiant Air relocate some service to AZO. In the end this might be the break AZO needs! Direct Air showed that AZO can sustain service year round to PGD and SFB.

The Mad Dogs can't handle AZO's runway reliably, but the new Airbuses coming online can... and I wouldn't be surprised to see G4 start AZO with SFB to start.

I suppose - hadn't thought of G4 possibly relocating to AZO. But as someone who grew up in AZO it's sad to see the airport turn into such an empty shell. Only DL/AA left of the legacies - no more US, CO, UA - granted consolidation is a huge reason for that but that's got to be a reason airfares to AZO are so extortionate. WN will only increase the bleed from the Kalamazoo area to GRR - which is such an easy drive that it's a huge problem anyway. Adding G4 to AZO doesn't help me with options to go home and see my folks any.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: CIDFlyer
Posted 2013-02-05 18:54:10 and read 3161 times.

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 34):
Wow, I thought for sure we'd get a HOU flight. Not surprised at all that MDW and ATL didn't make the cut though.

not surprised HOU wasnt announced, there are alot of midwest destinations like DTW, FNT, CMH, MKE, MSP, OMA that do not have HOU service so GRR not getting it isnt too much of a surprise. GRR did get a nice array of cities, BWI which will offer great connections to the east coast, MCO which handles Florida and connections there, STL where they can connect to other midwest destinations and the mid south and DEN which can connect to the west coast. Impressive start considering DSM only has 2 flights a day to MDW.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2013-02-05 19:41:45 and read 3085 times.

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 61):
not surprised HOU wasnt announced, there are alot of midwest destinations like DTW, FNT, CMH, MKE, MSP, OMA that do not have HOU service

Not surprised either for the same reasons, as most cities can be reached on one connection via STL or DEN.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2013-02-05 22:31:31 and read 2966 times.

Per Faremeasure.com (fwiw) Daily Passengers from GRR:

DEN 285*
BWI 281*
MCO 258*
LAS 190
BOS 170
PHX 169
LGA 153
LAX 141
TPA 135
SEA 131
SFO 114

STL 41*

*Getting WN nonstop service.

-Dave

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-02-06 02:23:28 and read 2869 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 63):

I figured BOS was the largest city with no nonstop service from GRR. Where is ATL?

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2013-02-06 07:08:58 and read 2725 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 64):
I figured BOS was the largest city with no nonstop service from GRR. Where is ATL?

And DFW? This list is incomplete.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: JBAirwaysFan
Posted 2013-02-06 07:29:55 and read 2710 times.

Quoting KingAir200 (Reply 58):
I'm interested to see what, if any, changes DL will make to the GRR schedule after the announcement. I suppose UA too, though they're not as invested in the GRR market.

Let's see. DL's current schedule calls for:

ATL: 2x MD-88, 1x CR9
DTW: 3x ERJ, 1x CR7, 1x CRJ, 1x MD-88
MSP: 1x 319, 2x CRJ, 1x MD-90, 1x E175
CVG: 3x ERJ
LGA: 1x ERJ, 1x CRJ

You may see an upgrade to more mainline on MSP for westbound travelers, maybe all mainline to ATL to compete with pax traveling down south since BWI has many connections to Florida, and other southeastern destinations, especially with the nonstop MCO flights. DTW is such a short flight I guess I can see the use of larger RJs as well but CVG and LGA won't be touched.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-02-06 07:41:32 and read 2681 times.

Quoting JBAirwaysFan (Reply 66):

Delta cant respond to every schedule change from every competitor. So where does Delta get the mainline aircraft to fund MSP and ATL upgauges? They have to pull them from somewhere else. People on A.net think all airline route planning depts do is react. I bet any upgauges are seasonal and long planned

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2013-02-06 08:04:23 and read 2644 times.

http://www.faremeasure.com/View-Airp...R__Ford_International_Airport.html

There is a link to the data the poster above is using. Took all of 30 seconds to look up. sheesh

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: KingAir200
Posted 2013-02-06 09:17:36 and read 2554 times.

Quoting JBAirwaysFan (Reply 66):

ATL will be back to all mainline for the summer, MSP has 6th daily on mainline planned for the season, and the launch LGA becomes a E70/CR7. DTW also regains a mainline. This was all planned before WN though. Other than the standard summer increases, the specifics of the schedule for summer hasn't been released. My original post was more geared to any additional mainline departures or mainline capacity increases.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 67):
People on A.net think all airline route planning depts do is react. I bet any upgauges are seasonal and long planned

NW was very reactionary. Granted DL has tended to be less so, but you never know.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: tjwgrr
Posted 2013-02-06 09:23:09 and read 2533 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 65):
Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 64):
I figured BOS was the largest city with no nonstop service from GRR. Where is ATL?

And DFW? This list is incomplete.
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 63):
DEN 285*
BWI 281*
MCO 258*
ATL 210
LAS 190
DFW 185
BOS 170
PHX 169
LGA 153
LAX 141
TPA 135
SEA 131
SFO 114
HOU 113
MSP 106


STL 41*

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: JBo
Posted 2013-02-06 10:03:53 and read 2465 times.

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 60):

I suppose - hadn't thought of G4 possibly relocating to AZO. But as someone who grew up in AZO it's sad to see the airport turn into such an empty shell. Only DL/AA left of the legacies - no more US, CO, UA - granted consolidation is a huge reason for that but that's got to be a reason airfares to AZO are so extortionate. WN will only increase the bleed from the Kalamazoo area to GRR - which is such an easy drive that it's a huge problem anyway. Adding G4 to AZO doesn't help me with options to go home and see my folks any.

AZO and MKG are in very similar boats with loss of service due to the economy and industry consolidation. Back in the day, MKG could profitably support three carriers and AZO could support five, but between the industry, the economy, and the proximity of GRR, both airports' services have suffered.

MKG lost UA when Great Lakes moved out west in 2002, leaving them with YX and NW. YX pulled out in '08, leaving NW (becoming DL) as the sole carrier. Then Mesaba filed for EAS subsidies, putting MKG into the EAS program, and lost the bid to SkyWest. Now MKG has UA service, but is stuck under EAS. I personally don't think the MKG market should really qualify for EAS with GRR in such close proximity, but the airport and SkyWest are working on marketing the service wtih the goal to make it a profitable route without subsidy.

I would hate for AZO to follow a similar route. Thankfully, AZO is a bigger market and can better justify supporting its own service despite the proximity to GRR. I could see AZO competitively drawing niche carriers like G4 and offering services that GRR doesn't.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-02-06 11:22:01 and read 2389 times.

Quoting KingAir200 (Reply 69):
NW was very reactionary. Granted DL has tended to be less so, but you never know.

NW had no choice. They made tons in MN, WI and MI. They were low yield everywhere else.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: KingAir200
Posted 2013-02-06 13:49:47 and read 2315 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 72):
NW had no choice. They made tons in MN, WI and MI. They were low yield everywhere else.

Oh I'm not disputing that. A joke among old NW-ers is that NW flew to MI, MN, WI, and the Dakotas because they had to, not because they wanted to. At any rate, I'm not expecting or imagining there'll be a NW style reaction to WN, but perhaps a few changes.

[Edited 2013-02-06 14:06:11]

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: JBAirwaysFan
Posted 2013-02-06 14:22:26 and read 2270 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 67):
Delta cant respond to every schedule change from every competitor. So where does Delta get the mainline aircraft to fund MSP and ATL upgauges?

No, they can't but A) This is Southwest and B) it seems as if they have plenty of mainline aircraft around these days. So many cities are seeing mainline flights return because DL has the extra planes.

Topic: RE: GRR Major Air Service Announcement Feb. 4th
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2013-02-06 14:36:57 and read 2244 times.

Quoting JBAirwaysFan (Reply 74):
No, they can't but A) This is Southwest and B) it seems as if they have plenty of mainline aircraft around these days. So many cities are seeing mainline flights return because DL has the extra planes.

That is not necessarily a true statement.

A) Southwest is actually a more rationale competitor than FL in regards to pricing. However, WN has much more brand loyalty than FL. However the WN/FL cities are different than other WN entrances, as this is not really a new entrant as it is WN replacing FL. This is more a realignment of capacity versus net capacity.

B) Mainline is not returning in markets just because DL has the extra planes, there is much more behind when mainline is being added back. DL's schedule has seasonal reductions on capacity, particularly during Jan-early Feb, so naturally there is slack in the fleet. They are adding mainline back into markets on a capacity-neutral basis as regional aircraft are removed from the fleet.


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