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Topic: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: raffik
Posted 2013-02-06 13:08:30 and read 9894 times.

I've seen pictures of American airlines operating short haul services throughout Europe in the 70s and 80s
with 737s and 727s. Nowaday this sort of operation seems very odd. Why did the American airlines
operate regional hubs so far away from home? Did they not interline/codeshare with airlines over here?
And why did the regional hubs close?

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: 817Dreamliiner
Posted 2013-02-06 13:16:29 and read 9831 times.

American??? Dont you mean Pan Am?

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: RussianJet
Posted 2013-02-06 13:18:11 and read 9815 times.

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 1):
American??? Dont you mean Pan Am?

Given that 'airlines' was written with a small 'a' I rather understood that the OP meant airlines from America in general - not any one specific airline.

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: dstc47
Posted 2013-02-06 13:19:30 and read 9814 times.

One reason is that German carriers could not serve Berlin and Pan am had a German division which connected Berlin to cities in W Germany. PA and TW also had some add on services with smaller aircraft to connect smaller cities to transatlantic routes

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: 817Dreamliiner
Posted 2013-02-06 13:20:09 and read 9780 times.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 2):

Ahh, I just reread it, my mistake.

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-06 13:22:48 and read 9742 times.

There are many previous threads on this subject. Codshares didn't exist in those days. It didn't make economic sense to fly widebodies on short 5th freedom sectors within Europe so they based a few narrowbody aircraft in Europe to operate those tag-on change-of-gauge 5th freedom sectors. They had to be continuations of a U.S.-Europe flight. They couldn't operate stand-alone flights, with the exception of the special rights used by Pan Am to operate their frequent shuttle services between then West Berlin and several cities in what was then West Germany during the years when LH wasn't permitted to serve Berlin. Only U.S., British and French carriers were permitted to serve West Berlin after WWII until Germany was reunited in 1989.

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: nickofatlanta
Posted 2013-02-06 13:23:38 and read 9739 times.

On the whole, it was before the days of alliances / joint ventures etc.

DL, UA, PA, TW have all operated flights within Europe on narrow bodies.

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: Aviaco
Posted 2013-02-06 13:26:58 and read 9677 times.

In the late 80s, early 90s Pan Am also sold tickets for FRA-SVO-FRA to local german passengers.
I guess they did so for other destinations, too (Warsaw, Istanbul)

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: raffik
Posted 2013-02-06 13:35:19 and read 9605 times.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 2):
Given that 'airlines' was written with a small 'a' I rather understood that the OP meant airlines from America in general - not any one specific airline.

   Yep, that's what I meant. Airlines from America rather than the actual airline AA

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):
There are many previous threads on this subject.

Sorry, I tried to search and couldn't find anything that completely answered the question.

But you answered my questions very well, thank you. Are there any examples of where European airlines have offered such add on flights within America with smaller aircraft?

Is this the same as the short haul Iberia fleet in South America or the BA 737 classics in South Africa?

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):
They couldn't operate stand-alone flights, with the exception of the special rights used by Pan Am to operate their frequent shuttle services between then West Berlin and several cities in what was then West Germany during the years when LH wasn't permitted to serve Berlin

Wikipedia says that Trans World based a fleet of 727s and operated flights on inter-European routes between Berlin, Frankfurt, London, Zurich, Hamburg, Stuttgart, Vienna, Amsterdam and Istanbul. Does this mean that the flights originated in Berlin

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-02-06 13:41:25 and read 9551 times.

The issue was two-fold, I believe.

1) Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that IATA had rules to govern codeshares until sometime in the 1980s.

2) Traffic volume wasn't what we have today. Even up to the late 1970s/early 1980s, airlines such as TWA and Pan Am were sending 707s into Europe on multi-stop journeys.

The first codeshare flight I remember booking was around 1987-88 on Continental to LGW, connecting to Transavia to AMS, which carried the CO flight number from DEN.

Quoting raffik (Reply 8):
Wikipedia says that Trans World based a fleet of 727s and operated flights on inter-European routes between Berlin, Frankfurt, London, Zurich, Hamburg, Stuttgart, Vienna, Amsterdam and Istanbul. Does this mean that the flights originated in Berlin

Wikipedia wouldn't be reliable in this instance. TWA didn't begin serving AMS until the mid-80s, and those flights were nonstop from JFK.

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: airdfw
Posted 2013-02-06 13:48:05 and read 9478 times.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 2):
that the OP meant airlines from

Sorry being dumb but what is is 'OP' mean?

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-06 13:49:49 and read 9478 times.

Quoting raffik (Reply 8):
Are there any examples of where European airlines have offered such add on flights within America with smaller aircraft?

European carriers couldn't carry passengers on domestic sectors within the U.S. as that is cabotage. Similarly, U.S. carriers couldn't (and still can't) carry domestic traffic entirely within one country in Europe. The exception was the previously-mentioned service between West Berlin and points in then-West Germany.

Some European carriers had 5th freedom rights on certain Canada-U.S. sectors and were able to sell those to local passengers. Sabena also once based a 737 in Montreal to operate tag-on services to certain U.S. points. The 737 connected with their widebody flights BRU-YUL/YMX. If memory correct they had no 5th freedom rights on those routes.

BA once operated 757-200s YYZ-JFK-BHX and were able to sell YYZ-JFK. There were a few others over the years.

Quoting raffik (Reply 8):
Wikipedia says that Trans World based a fleet of 727s and operated flights on inter-European routes between Berlin, Frankfurt, London, Zurich, Hamburg, Stuttgart, Vienna, Amsterdam and Istanbul. Does this mean that the flights originated in Berlin

TWA didn't have much Berlin service compared to Pan Am. Here's another thread on TWA.
TWA Service To Berlin (by USPIT10L Jun 4 2006 in Civil Aviation)

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2013-02-06 14:00:46 and read 9412 times.

Quoting airdfw (Reply 10):
Sorry being dumb but what is is 'OP' mean?

Original Poster. That would be the person who started the thread. They referred to him, the OP, when clarifying what they think he meant by "American airlines".

PA operated the 1960-70s intra-Germany services that were mentioned above. The others like TW and UA were for tag-on purposes back before code-sharing and partnerships existed like they do today. Instead of say, UA flying a 747 JFK-LHR-BRU they might have a 727 on the LHR-BRU segment.

Tag-ons in the US by foreign carriers always used the overseas equipment to my knowledge. Like BA didn't have 737s based in the US. They might just have a 747 do LHR-YVR-SEA or QF had a 747 SYD-SFO-YVR for example. CA had a 747SP do PEK-SFO-LAX and PEK-SFO-JFK on different days of the week.

(Some of my above are hypothetical examples, just to illustrate).

You don't see that anymore in the age of code-shares. Like MU wouldn't fly an A340 PVG-LAX-SFO, for example. They'd partner with AA to connect passenger for the LAX-SFO segment. Or BA wouldn't do a 777 LHR-SEA-PDX; they'd code-share with QX for the SEA-PDX connecting traffic.

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: sevenheavy
Posted 2013-02-06 14:02:57 and read 9382 times.

TWA had B721s until the early 90s based in both FRA and CDG. There were at least 3 based in FRA that used to all arrive in FRA in time for TW741, the daily B747 to JFK. they were mainly intra German routes but they also operated to VIE, LHR and other destinations.

The CDG routes were to FCO, ATH, TLV, GVA, ZRH and others. They were timed to connect to TWA's transatlantic services to JFK, IAD, BOS, and sometimes LAX. They did change specific routes and destinations to fit with the transatlantic schedule, so this information is by no means exhaustive.

Although not narrowbodies, TWA did also operate the B747, L-1011 and B767 on intra European routes.

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: STT757
Posted 2013-02-06 14:04:47 and read 9359 times.

Quoting raffik (Reply 8):
Are there any examples of where European airlines have offered such add on flights within America with smaller aircraft?

Sure, Iberia and Air France from Miami.

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-06 14:12:10 and read 9294 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 12):
Tag-ons in the US by foreign carriers always used the overseas equipment to my knowledge. Like BA didn't have 737s based in the US. They might just have a 747 do LHR-YVR-SEA or QF had a 747 SYD-SFO-YVR for example. CA had a 747SP do PEK-SFO-LAX and PEK-SFO-JFK on different days of the week.

El Al operated tag-on services between Montreal (then Mirabel airport YMX) and MIA for a while. They contracted that service out to Canadian regional carrier Nordair which used 737-200s on those tag-on flights. They didn't have 5th freedom rights. If memory correct the through passengers to/from MIA transfered between the LY 747 and the Nordair 732 on the ramp at YMX without any customs/immigration formalities.

This is getting off topic since Israel isn't Europe but as a sidenote LY also operated TLV-YYZ-LAX for a while using 767s, and were able to sell local 5th freedom traffic YYZ-LAX-YYZ.

There have been many Canada-U.S. transborder 5th freedom operations over the years involving a dozen or so carriers. The only one left is CX YVR-JFK. PR recently dropped their YVR-LAS tag-on service.

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: AirCalSNA
Posted 2013-02-06 15:01:44 and read 9078 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 12):
You don't see that anymore in the age of code-shares. Like MU wouldn't fly an A340 PVG-LAX-SFO, for example. They'd partner with AA to connect passenger for the LAX-SFO segment. Or BA wouldn't do a 777 LHR-SEA-PDX; they'd code-share with QX for the SEA-PDX connecting traffic.


I may be mistaken, but it seems like Asiana flies 747s between LAX and SFO to this day. Although perhaps those are repositioning flights?

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: hoMsar
Posted 2013-02-06 15:24:20 and read 8962 times.

Quoting raffik (Reply 8):
But you answered my questions very well, thank you. Are there any examples of where European airlines have offered such add on flights within America with smaller aircraft?

Didn't Qantas briefly operate their LAX-JFK service with an A330 (instead of a 747), or is my memory playing tricks on me?

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: planeguy727
Posted 2013-02-06 16:04:42 and read 8836 times.

Quoting hoMsar (Reply 17):
Didn't Qantas briefly operate their LAX-JFK service with an A330 (instead of a 747), or is my memory playing tricks on me?

Yes but that A330 was not US based.

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: hoMsar
Posted 2013-02-06 16:34:58 and read 8731 times.

Quoting planeguy727 (Reply 18):
Quoting hoMsar (Reply 17):
Didn't Qantas briefly operate their LAX-JFK service with an A330 (instead of a 747), or is my memory playing tricks on me?

Yes but that A330 was not US based.

True. But it did allow their passengers connecting off of other 747 (and maybe A380?) flights to continue on without having to fly the larger plane across country.

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: airdfw
Posted 2013-02-06 16:43:07 and read 8690 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 12):
Original Poster.

Thank you

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: tharanga
Posted 2013-02-06 16:58:20 and read 8622 times.

are we overstating the importance of codeshares here? the presence or absence of the codeshare doesn't really matter, so long as there was an interline agreement. and I assume the US airlines had interline agreements with the european airlines back then.

maybe it was always more cost-effective for the us airlines to just market connections to european airlines, instead of operating these tags - maybe they just didn't realize it, or didn't do it for prestige reasons. (?)

(my comment does not apply to the PA IGS)

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: zrs70
Posted 2013-02-06 16:59:02 and read 8622 times.

Today, we have CO 737's from NRT to various spots in Asia. Similar thing.

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-06 17:21:58 and read 8563 times.

TG based an A310 in SEA for a while in the early 1990s to operate the SEA-YYZ-SEA sectors of their brief BKK-TPE-SEA-YYZ service. They had 5th freedom rights SEA-YYZ. It must have been very unprofitable, like all other TG efforts to serve North America. It was so brief there aren't any TG photos at SEA.

The A310 at YYZ.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Trevor Ogle

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: johnclipper
Posted 2013-02-06 18:03:04 and read 8466 times.

Just like BA flying a 744 on IAH-DTW-LHR before Bermuda II revisions. I believe Royal Air Maroc used to fly CMN-YUL-JFK with a 747. KE used to fly DFW-LAX-SEL with a 744 before DFW went nonstop (anyone know that flight # as I took the DFW-LAX r/t back in 1999). Few others come to mind, SV Saudi Arabia-JFK-IAD, BA LHR-IAD-MIA with Concorde. LH used to do a FRA-ATL-IAH or MEX flight (think for a time it was to IAH).

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: mjoelnir
Posted 2013-02-06 18:23:54 and read 8695 times.

American carriers especially Pan Am had extensive European operations. They were operated as international flights between different European countries. They depended on bilateral agreements between the USA and the single European countries.
They were not tag-ons. The air planes were stationed in Europe and you could buy flights inside of Europe not different from flying with an European carrier. As I have personally bought tickets and used these connections I will not bother to look up a reference.
It can well be that an airport had a European connection by an American airline before it got a connection to the USA by an american airline.
Few European airlines had a European net of connections as extensive as Pan Am. The European carriers were small and there were a lot of them.
Regarding the USA domestic market. The USA is still better in protecting there local market than the EU.
The main problem is, that a flight between Frankfurt and Amsterdam is an international flight and a flight between New York and San Francisco is a domestic flight.

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-06 18:41:36 and read 8595 times.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 25):
They were not tag-ons. The air planes were stationed in Europe and you could buy flights inside of Europe not different from flying with an European carrier. As I have personally bought tickets and used these connections I will not bother to look up a reference.

Yes they were legally tag-on flights from a transatlantic flight of the same carrier, bearing the same flight number. The only exception, as mentioned before, was Pan Am's IGS (Internal German Services) operation to/from West Berlin due to the special status then of Berlin.

When smaller aircraft based in Europe were used on the tag-on sectors they were known as change-of-gauge operations. They definitely could not operate stand-alone 7th freedom services with no connection to the U.S. The bilaterals gave them 5th freedom rights in most (not all) cases so, as you state, they were perfectly free to sell local traffic to passengers travelling within Europe wherever they had 5th freedom rights.

It was exactly the same type of operation as DL and UA within Asia to/from NRT, where they have extensive 5th freedom rights and can carry local traffic within Asia, but the sectors beyond NRT, whether operated by the same widebody aircraft that also operates the transpacific sector, or a change-of-gauge service using smaller aircraft based in Asia, must still be a continuation of a transpacific flight number to/from the U.S.

Exception is of course UA's extensive service (the former CO Micronesia) using 737s between Guam and various points in Asia. Since Guam is a U.S. territory those aren't 5th freedom operations but have the same 3rd and 4th freedom status as any other international flights operated by U.S. carriers to from the U.S.

[Edited 2013-02-06 18:45:56]

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: qf002
Posted 2013-02-06 19:17:54 and read 8583 times.

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 22):
Today, we have CO 737's from NRT to various spots in Asia. Similar thing.

This was my first thought as well. UA and DL do pretty much the same thing today in Asia.

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: mjoelnir
Posted 2013-02-06 19:24:42 and read 8559 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 26):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 26):
Yes they were legally tag-on flights from a transatlantic flight of the same carrier, bearing the same flight number. The only exception, as mentioned before, was Pan Am's IGS (Internal German Services) operation to/from West Berlin due to the special status then of Berlin.

When smaller aircraft based in Europe were used on the tag-on sectors they were known as change-of-gauge operations. They definitely could not operate stand-alone 7th freedom services with no connection to the U.S. The bilaterals gave them 5th freedom rights in most (not all) cases so, as you state, they were perfectly free to sell local traffic to passengers travelling within Europe wherever they had 5th freedom rights.

It was exactly the same type of operation as DL and UA within Asia to/from NRT, where they have extensive 5th freedom rights and can carry local traffic within Asia, but the sectors beyond NRT, whether operated by the same widebody aircraft that also operates the transpacific sector, or a change-of-gauge service using smaller aircraft based in Asia, must still be a continuation of a transpacific flight number to/from the U.S.

Exception is of course UA's extensive service (the former CO Micronesia) using 737s between Guam and various points in Asia. Since Guam is a U.S. territory those aren't 5th freedom operations but have the same 3rd and 4th freedom status as any other international flights operated by U.S. carriers to from the U.S.
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 26):
Yes they were legally tag-on flights from a transatlantic flight of the same carrier, bearing the same flight number. The only exception, as mentioned before, was Pan Am's IGS (Internal German Services) operation to/from West Berlin due to the special status then of Berlin.

When smaller aircraft based in Europe were used on the tag-on sectors they were known as change-of-gauge operations. They definitely could not operate stand-alone 7th freedom services with no connection to the U.S. The bilaterals gave them 5th freedom rights in most (not all) cases so, as you state, they were perfectly free to sell local traffic to passengers travelling within Europe wherever they had 5th freedom rights.

It was exactly the same type of operation as DL and UA within Asia to/from NRT, where they have extensive 5th freedom rights and can carry local traffic within Asia, but the sectors beyond NRT, whether operated by the same widebody aircraft that also operates the transpacific sector, or a change-of-gauge service using smaller aircraft based in Asia, must still be a continuation of a transpacific flight number to/from the U.S.

Exception is of course UA's extensive service (the former CO Micronesia) using 737s between Guam and various points in Asia. Since Guam is a U.S. territory those aren't 5th freedom operations but have the same 3rd and 4th freedom status as any other international flights operated by U.S. carriers to from the U.S.

You can call that tag on, I do not.

When in those days you flew with Pan Am on international flights between European airports, there were not sitting mainly newly arrived Americans around you or Americans on the way home. Those were pan-European flights with mainly customers originating and ending in Europe.
A lot of the cabin staff, perhaps all, were local not American. I remember that Frankfurt was a hub.
It looks perhaps a bit strange today, but American carriers were stiff competitors on inner European routes.

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: hoMsar
Posted 2013-02-06 20:13:10 and read 8451 times.

Question regarding these intra-European services: Could a US airline operate them today, or have all of those rights been eliminated/withdrawn since the demise of Pan Am/TWA, reunification of Germany, birth of the EU, etc.?

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: Polot
Posted 2013-02-06 20:20:00 and read 8468 times.

Quoting hoMsar (Reply 29):
Question regarding these intra-European services: Could a US airline operate them today, or have all of those rights been eliminated/withdrawn since the demise of Pan Am/TWA, reunification of Germany, birth of the EU, etc.?

US carriers have 5th freedom rights with Europe, and vice versa, so yes they could still do it (In fact a few years ago UA was flying LHR-BRU? during the winter? with a 777 in order to hang on to some LHR slots they didn't need for transatlantic service). But why would they now? UA would rather just pass its passengers to LH, AA to BA, DL to AF/KLM and so on.

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: CARST
Posted 2013-02-06 23:36:54 and read 7806 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 26):
Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 28):
You can call that tag on, I do not.

Then you are plain wrong mjoelnir. By laws governing the "Freedoms of the air", these intra-Europe operations were exactly that, tag-ons, as described by Viscount724. If it would not have been tag-ons under the 5th freedom rights the US airlines would not have been allowed to sell tickets to local pax.
You are right when saying "it were no tag-ons with the same aircraft", but it were "change-of-gauge tag-ons", holding the same flight number.

You can't come up with your own definition of tags-ons, Freedoms or the air, etc., just because you don't like the way it is. 1+1 aren't 3 just because you like it better that way.

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: ely747
Posted 2013-02-07 01:25:16 and read 7153 times.

BA still flies 737s between CPT - JNB although these aircraft have SA registrations.

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: nickofatlanta
Posted 2013-02-07 01:47:45 and read 6995 times.

Quoting ely747 (Reply 32):
BA still flies 737s between CPT - JNB although these aircraft have SA registrations.

Very different - that is a franchise operation. BA marketed and coded flights operated by Comair, a South African owned and operated airline.

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: Lofty
Posted 2013-02-07 02:56:44 and read 6602 times.

Before code share QF used to operate LHR - MAN - LHR out of T3 but was on a BA Regional B737. Also to protect slots QF did base a BAE146 at T4 which operated empty.

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: blueflyer
Posted 2013-02-07 03:48:44 and read 6317 times.

Quoting Polot (Reply 30):
In fact a few years ago UA was flying LHR-BRU? during the winter? with a 777 in order to hang on to some LHR slots they didn't need for transatlantic service

UA did it several times, both before and after 9/11. Before 9/11, UA had available slots and enough demand to connect several TATL flights to a single LHR-BRU extension (in addition to the IAD-BRU service). If I recall well, the route alternated between IAD-LHR-BRU and ORD-LHR-BRU. When I took it once, it was a 767 from IAD. I had missed the non-stop. Everyone got off at LHR and connecting passengers just waited in a transit lounge before getting back on the same aircraft.

After 9/11, UA ran LHR-BRU for a few months with a 777 for the sole purpose of not surrendering slots. I think BRU was picked because it was close to LHR and cheaper to land at than AMS or CDG. While anyone could connect at LHR, I don't remember UA making any effort to promote the flight one way or the other.

AA did the same thing for a few months as well, although I don't recall the route or the aircraft type.

I believe they do have the traffic rights still, even if they haven't used them in years.

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: mjoelnir
Posted 2013-02-07 05:42:43 and read 5437 times.

Quoting CARST (Reply 31):

It is difficuilt sometimes to remember.

Could it be that quite a few of this flights had been "tag ons" to flights orginating in Berlin?

As I say they were often not conected to flights going and arriving from the USA.

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: lychemsa
Posted 2013-02-07 06:30:33 and read 5070 times.

I think you mean TWA and PAN AM.

PAN AM operated a 747 to Zurich with a 727 on from Zurich to Istanbul.
TWA would operate a 747 to Paris with a 727 on to Tel Aviv.

It was more economical.

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: Navigator
Posted 2013-02-07 06:36:46 and read 5012 times.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 36):
Could it be that quite a few of this flights had been "tag ons" to flights orginating in Berlin?

As I say they were often not conected to flights going and arriving from the USA.

PanAm had intra German flights to and from Berlin but apart from that both TWA and PanAm operated an extensive network of flights in Europe connecting with transatlantic flights i London LHR. PanAm flew both 727:s and 707:s based at Heathrow and even ARN on the LHR - ARN v.v. sector connecting with 747 flights across the atlantic. TWA did the same with 727:s connecting with transatlantic 747 flights at Heathrow. Most of those intra european connecting services were daily and the planes were based in Europe.

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: SouthernDC9
Posted 2013-02-07 06:40:50 and read 4990 times.

Wasn't Pan Am 103 a flight like this - it started in Frankfurt with 727 then those passengers switched over to 747 at LHR?

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: shuttle9juliet
Posted 2013-02-07 06:57:09 and read 4804 times.

Quoting SouthernDC9 (Reply 39):

Yes it was and it was to terminate in Detroit.

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: ckfred
Posted 2013-02-07 07:43:58 and read 4436 times.

Didn't at one time, BA used to send one of its LHR-ORD non-stops on to IAH, where it turned and flew back to ORD and LHR? Obviously, BA didn't carry passengers between ORD and IAH, but I remember someone telling me that booking those flights between ORD and LHR was hard, because so many seats were held for passengers traveling between LHR and IAH.

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: Polot
Posted 2013-02-07 07:54:45 and read 4330 times.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 41):
Didn't at one time, BA used to send one of its LHR-ORD non-stops on to IAH, where it turned and flew back to ORD and LHR? Obviously, BA didn't carry passengers between ORD and IAH, but I remember someone telling me that booking those flights between ORD and LHR was hard, because so many seats were held for passengers traveling between LHR and IAH.

Yes, this was because the Bermuda II bilateral prevented BA from flying LHR-IAH nonstop and BA wanted an IAH connection to LHR for oil traffic reasons(but they could, and did, fly LGW-IAH nonstop).

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: jwhite9185
Posted 2013-02-07 10:11:45 and read 3330 times.

Quoting raffik (Reply 8):
Is this the same as the short haul Iberia fleet in South America or the BA 737 classics in South Africa?
Quoting ely747 (Reply 32):
BA still flies 737s between CPT - JNB although these aircraft have SA registrations.

The BA ones in South Africa are actually a franchise of BA. They're operated by Comair which is a separate airline. Much like how the LCY operation is actually Cityflyer Express, but in full BA livery.

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: BSRadar
Posted 2013-02-07 10:27:38 and read 3202 times.

Quoting SouthernDC9 (Reply 39):

Wasn't Pan Am 103 a flight like this - it started in Frankfurt with 727 then those passengers switched over to 747 at LHR?

Indeed. Flight 103 originated in Frankfurt as a Pan Am B727 before transferring to "Maid of the Skies" at Heathrow. Forensics indicate that the Samsonite baggage with the explosive was transferred from this flight originating B727. It is believed the baggage originated though in Malta.

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-07 15:22:05 and read 2017 times.

Quoting jwhite9185 (Reply 43):
The BA ones in South Africa are actually a franchise of BA. They're operated by Comair which is a separate airline. Much like how the LCY operation is actually Cityflyer Express, but in full BA livery.

Comair is a very different operation from BA CityFlyer (their current name) The latter is a BA subsidiary, 100% owned by BA. Comair is an independent airline that pays BA for the use of the BA branding and various other services.

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-07 15:47:50 and read 1984 times.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 35):
I believe they do have the traffic rights still, even if they haven't used them in years.
Quoting hoMsar (Reply 29):
Question regarding these intra-European services: Could a US airline operate them today, or have all of those rights been eliminated/withdrawn since the demise of Pan Am/TWA, reunification of Germany, birth of the EU, etc.?

With the current US-EU Open Skies agreement, US carriers have even more flexibility than they did when they operated these 5th freedom tag-on services which were all subject to the varying bilaterals affecting each country. Now they have completely unrestricted 5th freedom rights within the 27 countries of the EU (and beyond the EU to anywhere in the world, assuming they have 5th freedom rights in the bilateral with the 3rd country).

The only thing they can't do now is operate cabotage services entirely within one country. EU-based carriers also have unlimited 5th freedom rights beyond the US if they have the same rights from the 3rd country involved, but similarly can't carry domestic passengers entirely within the U.S. They could, for example operate a flight EU-U.S.-Canada or EU-Canada-U.S. and carry transborder passengers wherever they wanted to operate since both the U.S-EU and Canada-EU Open Skies agreements permit unrestricted 5th freedom rights. But there's no reason to operate those types of services now. It's much more cost effective to use your alliance partners.

Pan Am used to operate some Paris-U.S. flights via London, however that was one sector where they did not have 5th freedom rights. If they operated that route today they would be able to sell local traffic.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 28):
ou can call that tag on, I do not.

When in those days you flew with Pan Am on international flights between European airports, there were not sitting mainly newly arrived Americans around you or Americans on the way home. Those were pan-European flights with mainly customers originating and ending in Europe.
Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 36):
As I say they were often not conected to flights going and arriving from the USA.

Please name one U.S. carrier flight within Europe (not counting the Berlin-West Germany routes) that didn't operate as a tag-on continuation (often using a Europe-based 727/737) of a flight bearing the same flight number as a flight to/from the U.S. If there was one it would have been illegal. Those intra-Europe flights carried both local passengers and many passengers continuing to/from the U.S. Since those flights had to be timed to connect with the transatlantic sector of the same flight number, they also often did not operate at attractive times for the local market. Fifth freedom services rarely generate the same yields as flights on carriers that don't have those operating restrictions. Many of Pan Am's 5th freedom services weren't even daily.

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: factsonly
Posted 2013-02-08 00:01:16 and read 1775 times.

It is not just US airlines that operated sectors within Europe. Here is a list of what I could find for ALL airlines that operated 5th Freedom on LHR-AMS over the years.

- PANAM - from 1950's to 1980s = B707, B727, B737, B747, B747SP
- TWA - 1986 = B747
- QANTAS - from 1960s to 1980s = B707, B747
- Singapore Airlines - from 1970s - 1990s = B707, B747
- Malaysian Airlines - from 1980s - 1990s = B747
- Air Malawi - 1980s - VC10 (to LGW) in here because it was rather special
- Gulf Air - 1980s-1990s = VC10, L1011
- VIASA - from 1970's to 1980s = DC8S, DC8
- TAROM - 1970s = BAC111
- LOT Polish Airlines - 1960s - 1990s = IL18, Tu134
- Kuwait airlines - 1980s = B707, A310, B767
- Nigeria Airlines - 1980s = DC10
- Bangladesh Biman - from 1980s to 1990s = B707, DC10
- Pakistan Airlines - 1970s = B707
- Air India - 1970s - 1980s = B707, B747
- Thai Airlines - 1980s = B747-200
- UNITED - from 1990s - 2000s = B727, B767, B777

Topic: RE: American Short Haul European Regional Flts
Username: factsonly
Posted 2013-02-08 08:06:28 and read 1569 times.

OK, how about this one for a Short Haul European regional flight by a US carrier.

Operated today 8 February 2013 by Delta Airlines A330-300:

- DL 8820 Spangdahlem Air Base, Germany Dep. 13.50 - arr. 14.50 AMS Airbus A330-300 N808NW
- DL 8820 AMS dep. 15.30 - arr. DTW 18.05 Airbus A330-300 N808NW

The Air Base at Spangdahlem is located East of Luxembourg and North of Saarbrucken.


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