Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5668300/

Topic: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: Luxair747SP
Posted 2013-01-21 13:35:01 and read 77377 times.

As the old threat was getting too long, please continue discussing here.


Part No. 6 of the thread can be found here:
A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 6 (by ManuCH Nov 8 2012 in Civil Aviation)

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: Aviaponcho
Posted 2013-01-21 14:31:09 and read 77325 times.

Ok
So where will the A350 RAT will be

http://ieee.rackoneup.net/rrvs/06/Emergency%20RATs%20Presentation.pdf

A330 like ? ou A300 like

If it's like the aeroweb picture it' new to the A350, and rather far behind the ventral gondola

http://www.aeroweb-fr.net/actualites...t-de-la350-sur-son-a340-300-dessai

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: CM
Posted 2013-01-21 14:42:52 and read 77238 times.

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 1):
So where will the A350 RAT will be

In the aft portion of the WTB fairing, it appears from the test arrangement. This is similar to Boeing widebody twins (not sure about Airbus Twins)

The red test rig looks like a setup to provide pressure data for the rat propeller in this location. Is this Airbus' first time putting a RAT aft of the maximum cross sectional area (Sears-Haack body)?

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: francoflier
Posted 2013-01-21 14:53:50 and read 77166 times.

Quoting CM (Reply 2):
(not sure about Airbus Twins)

The A300/310 have their RATs in the wing to body joint area as well, between the right MLG and the belly.

The A330/340 have their little rodent out underneath the right wing.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: EPA001
Posted 2013-01-21 23:50:12 and read 76679 times.

Quoting CM (Reply 2):
The red test rig looks like a setup to provide pressure data for the rat propeller in this location.

It sure looks like it with all the sensors mounted on this red testbed.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: Aviaponcho
Posted 2013-01-22 00:36:38 and read 76553 times.

Quoting CM (Reply 2):

All right, you must be right

In fact, i'm just dreaming that A350 batch 3 will have thinner wall insulation, because
- right now the insulation seems even thicker than on A330 ... even if engine should be quieter (external diameter - internal diameter is 6" on 787, 6.5" on 777, 7 on A330 and 7.5 on A350 !!)
- batch 3 change are discussed to be cabin related...
- a couple of centimeters will help 10 abreast in economy class

But I'm dreaming



Btw I've found no other photo of similar tests, and i've seem no comments on the composite panel acoustic test bed
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...re-skin-panel-on-a340-this-341186/

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: parapente
Posted 2013-01-22 02:06:50 and read 76306 times.

Re Reply 5. I was reading one of the many articles in the papers recently on the troubles of the 787.He went on to talk about it's many advantages,with particular reference to passenger comfort etc.At the end (he had clearly flown on it) he mentioned in passing that it was a noisy aircraft to fly on. I have no idea whether this is true or not. But referencing the above comment. I wondered whether the acoustic properties of a carbon tube was different (noisier) than a traditional 'tube' hence the need for additional accoustic insulation?

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-01-22 03:32:31 and read 76103 times.

Update on MSN003:

- The forward and central fuselage sections have arrived in TLS, final assembly should begin in the next few days.
- MSN003 is behind schedule but the assembly team will try to recover some time.
- Completing the central fuselage was more challenging but problems have been fixed in advance to avoid travelling work.
- The aft section should arrive next month.

http://www.bloga350.blogspot.nl/2013...-final-assembly-will-start-in.html

[Edited 2013-01-22 03:33:46]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: EPA001
Posted 2013-01-22 04:08:21 and read 75910 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 7):
Update on MSN003:

Thanks for keeping us up to date. How much time the delay was (late delivery by Spirit) is at best almost 1 month since these panels were expected to be delivered just before Christmas (according to the link you provided). It will be interesting to see how much time they can make up on assembling MSN003.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-01-22 06:49:33 and read 74649 times.

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 5):
Btw I've found no other photo of similar tests, and i've seem no comments on the composite panel acoustic test bed

Actually if you look closely on the photo you will see that is indeed the insulation test bed A340, you see the composite panel above the RAT rake on the fuselage left hand side in front of the A350 text. It is the Alu panel which was replaced with a CFRP panel and which had and might still have new variants of the different insulation methods applied to it to test the sound and heat insulation capability vs weight, humidity absorption etc. You can see that the windows has a different shape to the A340 windows further back:

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: Aviaponcho
Posted 2013-01-22 07:18:37 and read 74344 times.

Ferpe,
That's what I said
And I was (wrongly ?) guessing that the red device is an acoustic tool... mesuring noise behin the engine in order to make valid comparison between the old alumium skin and the various CFRP solutions tested for the A350
This red thing seems to be so much bigger than RAT !

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-01-22 08:13:59 and read 73898 times.

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 10):
This red thing seems to be so much bigger than RAT !

OK, I misunderstood you, but that can't be for the noise IMO as it is on the wrong side.

I have this picture I have shown before re placement of the air cond and inerting units, the RAT is also on there. It is placed like the 787 on the aft side of the wing-fairing, here on the belly slightly to the right, just as it is placed on the 340 test aircraft. No doubt the A340 test is to check the dynamic pressure (Q) for its deployment on the A350, it is sufficiently far out from the wing fairing to not have strong influences if it is a 340 fairing or the 350 one IMO. I would think they rather want to test cruise Q, start config Q and landing Q etc :

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/AircondinertingandRAT_zps23947434.jpg

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: Aviaponcho
Posted 2013-01-22 08:27:07 and read 73747 times.

So it's OK for me.
I've seen your picture searching today more inputs  
I must listen experts out there

May I reasked : did anaybody has some inputs from this acoustics tests ?

Thanks

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: goosebayguy
Posted 2013-01-22 10:20:46 and read 72813 times.

Rolls-Royce have delivered the first XWB engine with the second one due in about two weeks.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: EPA001
Posted 2013-01-22 10:39:18 and read 72654 times.

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 13):
Rolls-Royce have delivered the first XWB engine with the second one due in about two weeks.

That is another major milestone for the A350-XWB program.   Thanks for the update.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: Aviaponcho
Posted 2013-01-22 12:04:40 and read 71938 times.

Yes great milestone
Looking for the EASA TCDS shortly ?

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: Semaex
Posted 2013-01-25 10:25:06 and read 70224 times.

Excuse me for asking this maybe stupid question, but I saw the documentary on the BA 744 D-Check the other day (some of you may know it too), where they also show the effects of a lightning strike on aluminium compared to 'plastic' aircraft, which is rather radical.
My question is how Airbus is solving this matter. Seems to me like there must be a good balance between metal and non-metal parts on the fuselage?

Regards

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-01-25 10:34:45 and read 70186 times.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 16):
My question is how Airbus is solving this matter.

Like Boeing, Airbus embeds a metal mesh into the CFRP. This metal mesh allows the lightning to travel to the metal understructure and then out of the plane.

This entry from the A350 blog provides more details as well as a link to a BBC video on the subject.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: CM
Posted 2013-01-25 10:43:44 and read 70138 times.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 16):
Excuse me for asking this maybe stupid question, but I saw the documentary on the BA 744 D-Check the other day (some of you may know it too), where they also show the effects of a lightning strike on aluminium compared to 'plastic' aircraft, which is rather radical.
My question is how Airbus is solving this matter. Seems to me like there must be a good balance between metal and non-metal parts on the fuselage?

I have not seen the documentary, but if it was showing lightning damage to a composite part on a 744, then it would have been a sandwich construction composite with a lightweight (and likely honeycomb) core. This is a very different type of material than is used for the majority of structures on the A350 (and 787), which are primarily built of laminate (solid) CFRP material.

The reason why this is an important distinction when it comes to lightning strike is because sandwich composites almost always have some trapped moisture inside the core material. When lightning strikes this kind of composite structure, the lightning energy super-heats the trapped moisture, which in turn, blows the face sheets off of the core. Generally speaking, laminate composites do not have this same mechanism in play during a lightning strike.

However, the A350 has numerous features designed into its structure which help minimize the economic damage from a lightning strike. These include EAF and ECF (expanded aluminum and copper foils), as well as other conductive paths on the exterior of the airplane which serve both as shielding for the structure, as well as providing a "lightning rod" effect in the form of a path of least resistance for attachment of a direct lightning strike. These features are tied into the overall current return path of the airplane, permitting lightning energy to safely pass through the airplane (in the sense of entering at the wingtip and exiting through the tail) with minimal damage to structure or risk to airplane systems.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: tdscanuck
Posted 2013-01-25 18:41:15 and read 69566 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 7):
MSN003 is behind schedule but the assembly team will try to recover some time.

That is a phrase pregnant with badness...assembly *always* tries to recover some time but I've never seen that actually work. They're always the recipients of issues cascading down from farther up in the supply chain.

Tom.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-01-25 21:54:15 and read 69416 times.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 19):
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 7):
MSN003 is behind schedule but the assembly team will try to recover some time.

That is a phrase pregnant with badness...assembly *always* tries to recover some time but I've never seen that actually work. They're always the recipients of issues cascading down from farther up in the supply chain.

That is absolutely correct, what is meant however is that MSN5000 and MSN001 has come together on FAL from a pure assembly viewpoint better then the original planning foresaw, the fit of all the parts has been better then planned according to all involved (or they are outright lying  ). That does not isolate MSN0003 from the problem of late arriving parts or new problems with eg new or changed test installations. Lets see when she is finished, I think the original planning said roll-out 2-3 months after MSN001 ie June-July.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: BoeingVista
Posted 2013-01-31 17:35:09 and read 68188 times.

The FTB is doing cold weather testing in Iqaluit, a detailed news report attached, despite the news reporter stating that the A380 has 'several' engines, its worth watching.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/...0/north-airbus-engine-testing.html

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: Unflug
Posted 2013-01-31 23:37:18 and read 67869 times.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 21):
The FTB is doing cold weather testing in Iqaluit, a detailed news report attached, despite the news reporter stating that the A380 has 'several' engines, its worth watching.

Nice find, thanks!

Interesting how the test engines control is "integrated" in the Cockpit - see 1:35.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-02-01 00:03:37 and read 67793 times.

This should be about the last tests necessary for Engine certification, let's hope for that soon. Would be nice to look at the data in the TCDS.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: Aviaponcho
Posted 2013-02-01 02:28:44 and read 67481 times.

Hello

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...it&utm_medium=twitter&dlvrit=56505

Airbus is watching the Li-ion battery fate with optimism :
1) design is safe
2) in case of regulatory change, they've time for incorporating a change
3) a plan B might be in place

Have a nice day

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: RickNRoll
Posted 2013-02-01 03:15:27 and read 68065 times.

""We identified this fragility at the start of development and we think we resolved it about a year ago," Bregier said. "Nothing prevents us from going back to a classical plan that we have been studying in parallel.""

Always handy to find you have a plan B.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: EPA001
Posted 2013-02-01 05:07:00 and read 67823 times.

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 24):
Airbus is watching the Li-ion battery fate with optimism :
1) design is safe
2) in case of regulatory change, they've time for incorporating a change
3) a plan B might be in place

Good to see that they seem to be prepared for everything, and that they have confidence in the safety of their base design of the batteries. What "Plan B" is is the million Dollar question of course.  

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: EPA001
Posted 2013-02-01 05:07:42 and read 68849 times.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 21):

The FTB is doing cold weather testing in Iqaluit, a detailed news report attached, despite the news reporter stating that the A380 has 'several' engines, its worth watching.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/....html

Thanks for the link. It is always nice to watch videos like these.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: BoeingVista
Posted 2013-02-01 07:21:07 and read 68553 times.

Looks like you can get pretty close to the action at Iqaluit..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5T4Rcx0x_Y

The poster of this video says that they were doing RTO's in -30 weather, that must have been fun to see. In fact maybe we could organise an outing for next year when the A350 is bound to be doing its cold weather certification? Only half joking lol...

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: Aviaponcho
Posted 2013-02-01 08:41:52 and read 68422 times.

Hello guys
New ACAPS for the A350-900 with a lot more details, and...

http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/medi...ch_data/AC/Airbus-ACA350-Jan13.pdf

- Bulk hold has shrunk ! (from 12.3 m3 to 9.2 m3)
- An A350-900 in maintenance configuration is now 142 t (vs 135 t for an unknown not neccessarly comparable config)
- 9 abreast in economy with 18" seat cushion (from 17.7) 1.5 armrest (from 2" !!) and 18.1 " aisles (from 18.35) This strange layoutis 216.5" wide 3.5" narrower than the max persmissible width (biz layout stays at 220") strange inst'it ?

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-02-01 11:29:13 and read 68107 times.

Here is a another nice picture of MSN001 in Iqaluit:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/macinuk/8428072508/

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-02-01 11:36:58 and read 68022 times.

Good catch Poncho, if 142t has something to do with the spec OEW (which is seems) then B does not have to be ashamed, this is 53% of MTOW versus the 788 52% something. Lets see if this is a OEW or DOW but what I think we see are that both are cooking with water  .

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: sweair
Posted 2013-02-01 12:23:34 and read 67778 times.

It was reported some time ago that the first A359s had a few tons overweight, 2-4t iirc. Worst off was the A358.

It´s a different world before the thing actually is flying. How often does an airframe come in at or below the targeted weight.

Another factor, customers have more input into new aircraft designs, there will be things added that was not a part of the start design.

For a building I am making some drawings for I think I have had to change the drawings about 12 times since we started, things get added or removed and with every change the mess gets worse, my pipes wont fit anymore in some areas etc. Then the heat still gets turned on me, I just follow the changes that get decided in meetings. This modern world, I don't know if I am so impressed anymore, people have lost the sense of reality.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: Aviaponcho
Posted 2013-02-01 12:43:05 and read 67634 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 31):

Ferpe, i guess that it is bow plus fuel (typical reserve fuel for typical trip). You won't drain fuel for every maintenance task
It's my guess
So mew + furnishing + reserve fuel

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-02-01 13:17:40 and read 67532 times.

Before Airbus stopped listing OEW in their ACAPS, they used the same criteria to define it as Boeing does. To wit (from the January 2011 A340-500/-600 ACAP):

Quote:
Weight of structure, powerplant, furnishings, systems, and other items of equipment that are an integral part of a particular aircraft configuration plus the operator’s items. The operator’s items are the flight and cabin crew and their baggage, unusable fuel, engine oil, emergency equipment, toilet chemical and fluids, galley structure, catering equipment, passenger seats and life vests, documents, etc.


And the first column of the Ground Clearances table was at OEW ["OWE MID CG"].

[Edited 2013-02-01 13:21:15]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: a380900
Posted 2013-02-01 18:59:19 and read 67119 times.

If the 787 engines are beginning a new trend, why are the trent XWB not featuring these very thick anti ice protections that can be seen on Trent 1000?

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-02-03 06:04:48 and read 65963 times.

Quoting a380900 (Reply 35):
If the 787 engines are beginning a new trend, why are the trent XWB not featuring these very thick anti ice protections that can be seen on Trent 1000?

Do you mean that the lips are not painted? That is for the laminar flow as far as I know.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-02-05 02:46:25 and read 64842 times.

MSN001 in station 30 on February 1, 2013:



And an update on MSN003:

Quote:
The most striking during the visit to the FAL was the absence of other items except the MSN1 in the assembly line. The station 50, where are assembled sections of fuselage from Saint-Nazaire and Germany, was completely empty. Same thing in the station 40 where wings from Great Britain are fixed. According to information gleaned on site, the assembly of the sections of the MSN3 will begin "in the coming days”. However they were originally planned for December. The American manufacturer Spirit, which makes the central section of the fuselage, would be at the origin of these delays.

MSN003 is now ~ 1.5 month behind schedule.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-02-05 03:28:27 and read 64616 times.

And in other news, Airbus has started the first tests on MSN5000.

http://www.airbus.com/no_cache/newse..._medium=all_news&utm_campaign=RSS#

http://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/542753_606596032690018_975780728_n.jpg

[Edited 2013-02-05 03:54:06]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: Hloutweg
Posted 2013-02-05 04:14:04 and read 64285 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 38):

This is actually, aircraft zero, not MSN5000. But this is a great development.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: aviaponcho
Posted 2013-02-05 04:22:40 and read 64216 times.

Can we compare it to BBD Ciasta for the Cseries ? (that is running since end of summer 2012 i think)

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: BoeingVista
Posted 2013-02-05 04:51:20 and read 64208 times.

Quoting Hloutweg (Reply 39):
This is actually, aircraft zero, not MSN5000. But this is a great development.

Yes, this is the iron bird. A350 blog reported it as having begun 'flying' this week.

http://bloga350.blogspot.com.au/2013...xwb-virtually-makes-its-first.html

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-02-05 08:04:54 and read 63693 times.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 41):
Yes, this is the iron bird. A350 blog reported it as having begun 'flying' this week.

I think it has been "flying" for quite some time, what Airbus state is that the test bed flies exactly the missions that MSN001 will fly when they start the test campaign. I can imagine that pilots, flight test crews etc are then staffing the iron bird exactly as they will this summer and that they start to collect data from all the sensors which are representative of what they shall see once they fly. Thereby they and the ground test center crew can identify any parameter that will not behave as expected later and decide if that means the test will be modified or even terminated. All this will be a rader large job where all equipment had to be updated to the (software) revision and status it will have at the summer flights, not a small feat.


Re the delays for MSN003 I think there is something more then just Spirit dragging their feet behind. The thing to notice is that the delays suddenly hit the mid section (where the wings are attached) a bit into the program. Time wise it is after the half wing+pylon+center wingbox has been tested at IABG this summer  Wow! . Also the MSN5000 tests were said to start in March despite the frame being rolled over 23rd of November, I don't think it takes 4 months to hook her up.

My conclusion is A had to make some changes to the center section which will have to be incorporated into MSN003 and MSN5000 as these frames have to demonstrate the structural integrity of the program. MSN001 and 002 does not need to be subjected to full limit load in the flight test program, they can be cleared for a narrower envelope, but 5000 and 003 needs to go to ultimate load (1.5* limit for MSN5000) and limit load (max flight loads for MSN003) respectively otherwise there will be no type certificate.

So I don't think Spirit could not suddenly keep the (unchanged) pace, they could not rally the forces to implement wanted changes fast enough for Airbus needs and then produce sections with these changes in it.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: EPA001
Posted 2013-02-05 08:30:11 and read 63539 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 42):
Re the delays for MSN003 I think there is something more then just Spirit dragging their feet behind. The thing to notice is that the delays suddenly hit the mid section (where the wings are attached) a bit into the program. Time wise it is after the half wing+pylon+center wingbox has been tested at IABG this summer   . Also the MSN5000 tests were said to start in March despite the frame being rolled over 23rd of November, I don't think it takes 4 months to hook her up.

My conclusion is A had to make some changes to the center section which will have to be incorporated into MSN003 and MSN5000 as these frames have to demonstrate the structural integrity of the program. MSN001 and 002 does not need to be subjected to full limit load in the flight test program, they can be cleared for a narrower envelope, but 5000 and 003 needs to go to ultimate load (1.5* limit for MSN5000) and limit load (max flight loads for MSN003) respectively otherwise there will be no type certificate.

So I don't think Spirit could not suddenly keep the (unchanged) pace, they could not rally the forces to implement wanted changes fast enough for Airbus needs and then produce sections with these changes in it.

Your analysis sounds highly plausible. But even if this is the case, it is a very good thing that they have acted on the issue (if it is this issue) promptly and in this stage of the program. Time will tell us exactly what the reasons for this delay are.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: knoxibus
Posted 2013-02-06 00:35:50 and read 62704 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 42):
Also the MSN5000 tests were said to start in March despite the frame being rolled over 23rd of November, I don't think it takes 4 months to hook her up.

Sorry but I have to correct you here. It does take up to 5 months to hook it up entirely.

When you enter the "cathedral", you then realise how many cables, pressure gauges and other interfaces have to be connected. This is herculean work at its best, and the way the hangar is set up implies a lot of time consuming activities just to get the airframe properly located at the right spot.

Then every single sensor/gauges must be tested before they start anything. This was always the plan, so no "hidden" issue.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: Pugman211
Posted 2013-02-06 00:48:29 and read 62638 times.

I may have missed the posts, but is there any updates/images/video of how the XWB blade off test went??? Also, what about the half wing ultimate load test???

Thanks

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: aviaponcho
Posted 2013-02-06 01:06:57 and read 62628 times.

Remembering an Aweek article revealing 3 batches for the A350

Batch 1 : MSN1 to 5
Batch 2 : MSN6 to 16
Batch 3 : >MSN17

That was in end august 2012 (with FF already planning in mid 2013)

Betting on a 1 frame a month, if the schedules slips a little, can it be possible for airbus to reduce batch 1 ?

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-02-06 02:11:41 and read 62415 times.

Quoting knoxibus (Reply 44):
This was always the plan, so no "hidden" issue.

Thanks knoxibus, much appreciated. Now what delays MSN003 then, because Spirit was delivering for MSN5000 and 001 (and perhaps 002?, we don't know that as it is in cabin pre-equipping and that takes time), was it the changes/adaptations to fit the cabin in 002?

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-02-06 02:20:13 and read 62408 times.

Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 46):
can it be possible for airbus to reduce batch 1 ?

The parts for Batch 1 (001 to 005) was already in production IMO, you start producing the long lead time items almost 2 years before FAL and when you start producing a CFRP part you need the design to be 100% finished as it is an additive process. For Al CNC machined parts it is a process of taking the raw cuts first and then finally the finishing touches, the final mm can then be fixed just before those finishing touches.

This was one of the problems that Evrard described as the problem with this changed way of making the frames, you have to be more mature with the design before you can start production, and then once produced you can't modify the part easily. If you find you can reduce the material thickness on a Al part many times you can just re.enter it in the CNC and mill a bit further.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: knoxibus
Posted 2013-02-06 10:50:45 and read 61657 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 47):
Now what delays MSN003 then, because Spirit was delivering for MSN5000 and 001 (and perhaps 002?, we don't know that as it is in cabin pre-equipping and that takes time), was it the changes/adaptations to fit the cabin in 002?

Not sure of the reasons. MSN 003 should be in pretty soon I hope.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: PM
Posted 2013-02-07 05:06:14 and read 60939 times.

http://www.rolls-royce.com/news/pres...070213_easa_type_certification.jsp

7th February 2013 : The TXWB receives EASA certification.

The new engine has 'graduated'!

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: BoeingVista
Posted 2013-02-07 05:12:48 and read 60962 times.

Well done to RR and the A350    looks like all they were waiting for was the cold weather tests.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: Semaex
Posted 2013-02-07 05:52:24 and read 61061 times.

Somebody has recently asked the question at what time the blade-off test was performed and whether there is any footage to it....

anybody?


Congrats RR and Airbus to another milestone in the program!

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: BoeingVista
Posted 2013-02-07 05:59:12 and read 61018 times.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 52):
Somebody has recently asked the question at what time the blade-off test was performed and whether there is any footage to it....

anybody?

It was performed mid December I think, no footage of it has come to light so far. Probably have to wait for the making of the engine documentary in a few years, I believe that where the T900 footage first appeared..

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-02-07 09:04:45 and read 60531 times.

Here the type certificate for the Rolls-Royce Trent XWB:

http://easa.europa.eu/certification/...XWB_Series_engines-01-07022013.pdf

From Leeham OV-099:
…..And the engine (dry) weight is :

- TXWB: 7277 kg (i.e. not including nacelle etc.)
-Trent-900 is 6436 kg.
-Trent-500 is 4990 kg
-Trent-700 is 4763
-Trent-800 is 6078 kg
-Trent-1000 is 5409 kg
-GE90-90 is 7893 kg
-GE90-115 is 8761 kg

It costs weight to have a large fan and a high pressure ratio.

[Edited 2013-02-07 09:21:44]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: EPA001
Posted 2013-02-07 09:16:31 and read 60525 times.

Quoting PM (Reply 50):
7th February 2013 : The TXWB receives EASA certification.

The new engine has 'graduated'!

Great news for RR and the A350-XWB program.  

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-02-07 10:06:02 and read 60320 times.

And here the Airbus press release:

http://www.airbus.com/no_cache/newse..._medium=all_press&utm_campaign=RSS

Nice that Evrard says:

"These new engines together with the aircraft’s advanced aerodynamics and airframe technologies will bring our airline customers a 25 percent step-improvement in fuel efficiency."

So they seem to be near spec TSFC, we know they are not there yet (Bregier in Jan) but he said they expected series engines to be there. Evrard seem to confirm that.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: BoeingVista
Posted 2013-02-07 10:35:19 and read 60278 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 54):
It costs weight to have a large fan and a high pressure ratio.

Yup she's a bit of a porker!

EASA put the dry weight of the T900 as 6246 kg so 7277 for the XWB is +1031 kg

We may have to reevaluate if we will see a TXWB powered A380

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-02-07 11:06:49 and read 60163 times.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 57):
We may have to reevaluate if we will see a TXWB powered A380

You are right, that is 4.2t before the nacelle and pylons changes  Wow! . With nacelles and new pylons/wing beefing it sets you back 200nm before you start to count the gains  Yeah sure .

[Edited 2013-02-07 11:08:17]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: affirmative
Posted 2013-02-07 11:22:09 and read 60024 times.

Well, to put it in perspective. Didn't EK put a 4t system just to have their onboard spa? I don't see 4.2t as that much considering the gains. However, with a slightly redesigned engine some of that weight might be shed if there would be an application for the A380.. An if were talking A389 I'd say it's a small gain in the big picture.

Maybe I'm wrong..

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: aviaponcho
Posted 2013-02-07 13:30:08 and read 59767 times.

Hello
Thank you FERPE for the type certificate

No ETOPS at this point
No mention of the flat rated temperatures also
The weight is said to be "maximum" weight ? what can it mean ?

It's indeed quite heavy !
But the T900 is a 70-84 000 lbs engine whereas the TXWB basic is a 75-90 000 lbs
So we might compare it to the GE90-76/94.... and it's not to bad at all.

Trent 1000 is fairly light (but it's topping at 72 000 lbs for the moment)

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-02-07 13:36:26 and read 59778 times.

Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 60):
No ETOPS at this point

Correct me if I'm wrong but ETOPS certification should be done on a production frame (MSN 6?), so that's something for next year.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: abba
Posted 2013-02-07 14:00:42 and read 59735 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 58):
You are right, that is 4.2t before the nacelle and pylons changes . With nacelles and new pylons/wing beefing it sets you back 200nm before you start to count the gains



Couldn't the gain in terms of efficient improvement outstrip the loss?

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-02-12 04:38:55 and read 58701 times.

Quoting abba (Reply 62):
Couldn't the gain in terms of efficient improvement outstrip the loss?

I did a check, the heavier TXWB A380 will fly 300nm longer ie some 8400nm, I then shortend the leg to 6000nm ESAD and it consumed 9t less fuell still.

There is also some news on the 97klbf version for the A350-1000, it had critical design review in Jan 2013. RR will now build a test TXWB from 84klbf parts but with the high turbines from the 97k version, it should verify the design before they build first prototypes to be finished mid 2014 :

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....l/avd_02_12_2013_p01-01-547721.xml

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: aviaponcho
Posted 2013-02-12 05:16:11 and read 58437 times.

Hello Ferpe

At max range: 300 NM is a 40 min flight ... so 6-7 t of fuel or so ?
How can it be - 9 t at only 6000 Nm ?

The XWB report is conflicting ? I guess the XWB84-97 will run this year, and the full flavour XWB97 next year...

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: JerseyFlyer
Posted 2013-02-12 06:04:36 and read 58211 times.

The article referred to by Ferpe states;

“We will get more power out of the core by making it bigger and improve the turbine’s capabilities to run the engine hotter,” says Young, adding that the focus is on putting new technology into the turbine. Changes for the XWB-97 include the use of next-generation CMS-X4 single-crystal materials and anti-oxidation coatings in the high-pressure turbine, which will be shroudless for the first time on a Trent engine.

The turbine disc also will be forged from a dual microstructure disc that will provide greater stress capability toward the center of the hub, while exhibiting better creep resistance toward the tips. Other improvements include a more sophisticated adaptive bleed system, which is designed to turn cooling air bleed off during cruise when not required. The intermediate (IP) compressor features a “rising line” or inner annulus line that increases in radius, thereby boosting the tip speed of the aft stages. The high-pressure compressor is derived from the European New Aero Engine Core Concept program and is connected to the IP by a swan-neck duct."

How much of this can be applied later to the smaller TXWBs by way of PIPs?

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: mjoelnir
Posted 2013-02-12 06:26:30 and read 58137 times.

I think we will not see a trent xwb on the A 380-800.
We will see a flow of technologies downwards.
Regarding the advertised differences in fuel burn beetween the Trent XWB and the Trent 900, it is the difference at that time.
Since than the 900 has got improvements and the XWB still has to show the advertised numbers.
The difference could be less than advertised in the beginning.

[Edited 2013-02-12 06:27:17]

[Edited 2013-02-12 06:27:56]

[Edited 2013-02-12 06:28:41]

[Edited 2013-02-12 06:29:20]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-02-12 08:04:26 and read 57845 times.

Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 64):
At max range: 300 NM is a 40 min flight ... so 6-7 t of fuel or so ?
How can it be - 9 t at only 6000 Nm ?

Lets do it a bit more methodical and see if I did any thought somersaults  .

I take a 575t std A380 having a range of 8300nm where it consumed 226t of trip fuel. I then apply the TXWB, means OEW is now 280t, MTOW 575t, range 8600nm and fuel consum for these 8600nm is 221t. To check what happens when you fly a shorter leg I fly both 6000nm ESAD, then the T900 version consumes 150t and the TXWB version 141t. I then have average cruise weight of around 463t for the max range flights and average trip FF of 13.2t/hr for the T900 and 12.5t for the TXWB version, for the 6000nm it is around 421t and 12.2t and 11.5t.

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Reply 65):
How much of this can be applied later to the smaller TXWBs by way of PIPs?

Difficult to say as the new high pressure turbine is a totally new design to RR, first time where they do not use a shrouded blade (blade with the duct roof on the blade). Instead they use a normal blade with active clearance control like GE and PW does, thus this part if totally new from rotor and duct. You would need to change the whole HPT module, not evident they will as it could force changes to the LPT module as well. As the regulation of the cooling flow to the turbines goes they do that already today AFAIK it is just a more aggressive scheme with fluidistor control elements and probably not just a simple flow control but also distribution pattern changes, this should be possible to waterfall unless it requires drastic changes to the module cooling flow ducting/piping.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-02-12 12:40:04 and read 57544 times.

An A350 section being (un)loaded from/in the Beluga. Picture taken today.


(uploaded by http://www.flickr.com/photos/xfwspotter)

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-02-12 12:40:15 and read 57484 times.

I checked the Spirit Aerosystems webcast from their 2012 call today, the A350 delays came up. Spirit CEO said these were caused by "late braking changes" to the structure "not caused by Spirit". Spirit had delivered the MSN003 structure in Q4 2012 and today had delivered 4 flying middle sections and 2 non flying to Airbus St Nazaire.

This gives merit to may assumption there are changes being made to the center section after the design freeze and production of MSN5000 and MSN001. One day we will know whether these changes were for cabin attachment or for ultimate load issues. Amyway good to know that the MSN004 section should be a St Nazaire and that the fatigue section should be delivered as well (should be delivered as shipset no 5).

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-02-12 12:56:17 and read 57355 times.

Just a stupid question but will there be a MSN5001 like the A380 had?

Quoting ferpe (Reply 69):
Spirit CEO said these were caused by "late braking changes" to the structure "not caused by Spirit".

Now that's interesting.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 69):
Spirit had delivered the MSN003 structure in Q4 2012

It's getting more interesting! So parts for MSN003 are delivered but where not in station 59 nor station 50 or 40 on February 1. It looks like Airbus is reworking those parts at St Nazaire to avoid traveling work in the FAL.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 69):
and today had delivered 4 flying middle sections and 2 non flying to Airbus St Nazaire.

So we have:

MSN5000
MSN???? (ES)

MSN001
MSN002 ?
MSN003
MSN004 ?

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: travelavnut
Posted 2013-02-12 13:18:26 and read 57246 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 70):

Just a stupid question but will there be a MSN5001 like the A380 had?

Please allow me to retort with probably a dumber question; what was the A380 MSN5001 frame used for? A second static test frame?

[Edited 2013-02-12 13:18:53]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-02-12 13:28:14 and read 57217 times.

The A380 MSN5000 was used for static tests while MSN5001 was used for fatigue testing. Boeing also had 2 787 frames for this (ZY997 and ZY998).

For the A350 there is MSN5000 for static tests and some loose parts for fatigue testing but it's not clear to me if those parts will become MSN5001 (because there is only 1 wing).

[Edited 2013-02-12 13:49:21]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-02-12 14:24:45 and read 57020 times.

The part being loaded into the Beluga is a section 11-14 (ie direct behind the cockpit) made in Nordenham, it is being flown from XFW to St Nazaire to be mated to the cockpit section from Meulte.

Re production, last time Airbus presented an order it was MSN001, 5000, MSN002, MSN003, MSN5001 in parts, MSN004. In the production flow MSN5000 then overtook MSN001 to FAL as sections from 001 took longer in preFAL, the same with 003 and 002. The fatigue sections are going in 3 parts to fatigue test, here a picture over the different static and fatigue test units:

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/A350staticandfatiguetestunitsjpg_zps88786509.png

EW is the section which has already been tested summer 2012 at IABG Erding near Münich, it is from there I think some of the changes to the Spirit center section has come. The 3 fatigue sections are probably all at preFAL right now and will be delivered to different IABG/Airbus places later this spring, more on the test plan here:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-for-main-structural-tests-365076/

[Edited 2013-02-12 14:32:22]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-02-12 20:47:46 and read 56553 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 70):
It's getting more interesting! So parts for MSN003 are delivered but where not in station 59 nor station 50 or 40 on February 1. It looks like Airbus is reworking those parts at St Nazaire to avoid traveling work in the FAL.

That section 15-21 does not appear in FAL until now in Feb is normal, Spirit does only upper body structural parts. It produces the panels in Kinston NC and then assembles it to section 15 in their factory in St Nazaire:



Airbus Nantes does the center wingbox and keel beam and Aerolia the wheel well. All those pieces are then shipped to Airbus St Nazaire where they are mated and then the preFAL equipping with system components starts at St Nazaire. This take several months, only when section 15-21 is structurally and system wise complete and tested does it load on a Beluga and get flown to FAL at TLS.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-02-14 19:06:09 and read 55344 times.

So Airbus has taken the safe route as there was little to gain from staying with Li-Ion batteries but much to loose. Better focus on other problems:

According to Airbus (who communicated this decisions to their customers yesterday) the A350 program has decided to switch to NiCd for EIS aircraft to avoid certification uncertainty more then any doubts about the designs risks with their present design. Flight testing will start with Li-Ion, expect them to have switched for the route proving aircraft:

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2013...s/ap-us-airbus-batteries.html?_r=0


" NEW YORK (AP) — Airbus is dropping lithium-ion batteries from its new A350 airplane because of uncertainty surrounding the technology that has led to the grounding of Boeing's 787.

The European planemaker said late Thursday that it has decided to revert to nickel-cadmium batteries for the A350. The plane is a wide-body jet rival to the 787 and is expected to make its first flight around the middle of the year.

Airbus says it does not expect the battery switch to delay the A350. "

[Edited 2013-02-14 19:25:10]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: astuteman
Posted 2013-02-14 23:47:30 and read 54981 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 75):
According to Airbus (who communicated this decisions to their customers yesterday) the A350 program has decided to switch to NiCd for EIS aircraft to avoid certification uncertainty more then any doubts about the designs risks with their present design. Flight testing will start with Li-Ion, expect them to have switched for the route proving aircraft:

Having test aircraft flying with Li-Ion batteries presumably supports the option of reverting to Li-Ion at a later date, once technical uncertainties become resolved.

Rgds

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: Part147
Posted 2013-02-14 23:57:23 and read 55303 times.

The way I see it, Airbus seems more concerned about possible problems the FAA/EASA may have certifying Li-Ion technology and has so, rightly I think, avoided THAT delay rather than having doubts about the battery itself.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: aviaponcho
Posted 2013-02-15 00:26:07 and read 55119 times.

All right,
It won't make Boeing life easier I think ... stuck with Li-ion !

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: astuteman
Posted 2013-02-15 00:50:59 and read 55093 times.

Quoting Part147 (Reply 77):
The way I see it, Airbus seems more concerned about possible problems the FAA/EASA may have certifying Li-Ion technology and has so, rightly I think, avoided THAT delay rather than having doubts about the battery itself

That's how I see it too ...

Going forward, they can use the test frames flying with Li-Ion batteries to "Ion" out the certification problems in slower time ....  

Rgds

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: jpmagero
Posted 2013-02-15 01:20:28 and read 54889 times.

Airbus to drop Lithium-Ion Batteries in A350

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-02-15 01:38:03 and read 54808 times.

Smart move. I'm sure Airbus still has confidence in the Li-ion battery but it may take months before the NTSB found the problem, and the fix - whatever it might be - will probably require extra certification work which could delay the A350 EIS.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-02-15 11:22:06 and read 53905 times.

And now it is official:

http://www.airbus.com/newsevents/new...plan-b-for-the-a350-xwb-batteries/

" Airbus activates “Plan B” for the A350 XWB batteries

Reverts back to nickel cadmium technology
15 February 2013 Press Release

Airbus is confident that the lithium ion (Li-ion) main battery architecture it has been developing with Saft and qualifying for the A350 XWB aircraft is robust and safe. The A350 XWB flight test programme will continue as planned with the qualified Li-ion main batteries.

However, to date, the root causes of the two recent industry Li-ion main batteries incidents remain unexplained to the best of our knowledge. In this context, and with a view to ensuring the highest level of programme certainty, Airbus has decided to activate its “Plan B” and therefore to revert back to the proven and mastered nickel cadmium main batteries for its A350 XWB programme at Entry into Service (EIS). Airbus considers this to be the most appropriate way forward in the interest of programme execution and A350 XWB reliability.

In parallel, Airbus has also launched additional maturity studies on Li-ion main batteries behavior in aerospace operations and will naturally take on board the findings of the ongoing official investigation.

As a result of making this decision now, Airbus does not expect it to impact the A350 XWB Entry Into Service schedule. "

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-02-15 11:24:07 and read 53836 times.

Any idea about the extra weight?

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: kmz
Posted 2013-02-15 11:37:43 and read 53791 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 81):
Smart move

?

I am not sure. I either develop something according spec and requirements or I don't. Or I am not sure. Not good. They should continue with the Li-Ion. Or they want to detract form other problems/delays and have a welcome reason to push to the front?

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: RayChuang
Posted 2013-02-15 11:44:59 and read 53761 times.

It may also depend on if the vastly safer dry-electrode Lithium-ion batteries became available in the next few years. If the safer Li-On packs do become commercially available, then Airbus may put them back into the A350, saving nearly 200 pounds of weight over a similar power NiCad battery pack.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: PW100
Posted 2013-02-15 14:01:03 and read 53496 times.

Quoting kmz (Reply 84):
I either develop something according spec and requirements or I don't

The problem is that in the light of the 787 problems, and as a fall-out of the lessons learned, certification standards (CS - Certification Specifications in EASA land) might be changed. So the problem now is that you're no longer sure what the specs look like by the time the authorities are expected to sign off on the Type Certificate.

While it's true that the CS specs have been agreed with between EASA/FAA and Airbus, and set in stone some time ago, Airbus is not waiting for big AD's to be thrown at them before first delivery. It's one of those known unknowns, and Airbus needs to manage that risk right now. They can't afford to do that at EIS, as they still have the time do these changes without any meaningful disruption to the program.

Rgds,
PW100

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-02-18 10:06:16 and read 52444 times.

MSN1 today:

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BDZ3tQDCMAAX-yY.jpg:large

http://twitter.com/Airbus/status/303561644171210753

A high-res picture can be found at http://www.airbus.com/galleries/photo-gallery/

[Edited 2013-02-18 10:13:58]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-02-18 12:43:40 and read 51914 times.

I'm excited to see this plane is progressing to first flight.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 38):

And in other news, Airbus has started the first tests on MSN5000.

Good to see. Having an iron bird 'flying' really helps stress certain software code. For example, I worked an aircraft where the software didn't handle a simulated generator shaft failure quite right. Or the brake ABS software didn't quite work right when all the hardware was connected. It was funny watching the simulated aircraft blown off the runway... Funny in that 'oh boy, we just caught a major issue, let's fix it' kind of way.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 58):
Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 57):
We may have to reevaluate if we will see a TXWB powered A380

You are right, that is 4.2t before the nacelle and pylons changes   . With nacelles and new pylons/wing beefing it sets you back 200nm before you start to count the gains

I like Ferpe's later math. I suspect the A389 will have TXWBs (or something derived), but *after* RR figures out how to take out some of the added weight.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 67):
first time where they do not use a shrouded blade (blade with the duct roof on the blade).

Those shrouded blades have been an enigma in the aircraft industry as Pratt and GE knew how to make them, but couldn't make the weight versus efficiency balance pay off. RR was doing something different that worked!    But with a higher Mach # booster compressor, shrouded blades would have been tough. I do not think RR will go back.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 76):
Having test aircraft flying with Li-Ion batteries presumably supports the option of reverting to Li-Ion at a later date, once technical uncertainties become resolved.

As much as I prefer the Li-Ion technology, it is a better business decision for Airbus to go NiCad for now. Later on, as you note, they could switch and should have little trouble putting in smaller lighter batteries. But that forces Boeing to pay for the R&D/certification.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-02-18 15:00:14 and read 51598 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 87):
MSN1 today:

The most honorable senator is covering some vital parts of our aeroplane but what one can see is:

- all areo surfaces seems to be there now (slats, droop-nose, spoilers, HTP, VTP etc).

- what is still missing is the wing fairing and engines. Once the systems test are complete they should put on the wing fairing and then go outside for fuel system test at station 18.

- Then painting and after that final checks and fitting in hangar A50

- engines should be hanged in the last high value station A50 if things go to the production flow (it should be hangar 50 stations from the A330 line (there are 4 of them) but those are full, the 333 and 332 is still selling and A is now building new A50 halls for A350). We will see when they hand the engines but it should not be far away, they are in TLS now.


The next thing we want to see is the fuselage join of MSN003, here how the front fuselage looked when it was at preFAL at St Nazaire. Quite a bit of stuff to fit before it goes to FAL:

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/A350frontsection_zpsdbfd45af.jpg

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-02-19 06:48:42 and read 51156 times.

First winglet is on!

http://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/539279_615042331845388_1332537666_n.jpg

Quote:
Who’s excited for the A350 XWB? We’ve now installed the winglets on the first flight-test aircraft, revealing for the first time the full shape of the 32-metre A350 XWB wing!

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: knoxibus
Posted 2013-02-19 06:50:45 and read 51014 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 90):
First winglet is on!

The two of them actually!

Be prepared for some spotting soon.

 

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: aviaponcho
Posted 2013-02-19 06:51:14 and read 50976 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 89):

Ferpe,
The last photo is from MSN1 or 3 ? what's your source ?

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: 817Dreamliiner
Posted 2013-02-19 06:52:24 and read 51005 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 90):

Ahh you beat me to it! Just posted it, but then my internet went out so it didnt post   

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: travelavnut
Posted 2013-02-19 06:58:11 and read 50974 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 90):
First winglet is on!

It looks awesome!!

It has been said over- and over again, but I think I speak for the big group of leechers following this thread; ferpe, KarelXWB, lightsaber, astuteman and all the other knowledgeable contributors; thank you very very much for one of the most informing and educational threads on A.net!

And please; don't stop!! 

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-02-19 07:18:17 and read 50882 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 90):
First winglet is on!

If anything should be called a "Sharklet" it should be these, the A320 variant is tame in comparison. Beautiful    .

Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 92):
Ferpe,
The last photo is from MSN1 or 3 ? what's your source ?

It is actually MSN001 I think, the source was a tourist information page about St Nazaire (was browsing Google images with MSN1  as a change ). I just wanted to show what goes into one of these pre-equipping stations, the MSN003 structure was delivered from Spirit in Q4 but that does not mean the section comes to FAL until it is mated with the center wingbox-wheel well and then stuffed   .

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: aviaponcho
Posted 2013-02-19 07:23:51 and read 50838 times.

Thank
Next Airbus "Leak" must be MSN3 ... I hope

For engines, It'a a no brainer I think ... RR shouting that they are in TLS and EASA having them certified

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-02-19 07:57:47 and read 50705 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 89):
- what is still missing is the wing fairing and engines. Once the systems test are complete they should put on the wing fairing and then go outside for fuel system test at station 18.

- Then painting and after that final checks and fitting in hangar A50

Hi ferpe,

This video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0jlu0ghNIg shows the engines being attached after painting. I have two questions:

- Does this mean it's not possible to paint the engines (like the 787) due performance reasons?

- If so, why attaching the engines after the paint job? The A330 / A380 / 787 etc all go inside the paint bay with engines attached.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-02-19 08:22:09 and read 50528 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 97):
Does this mean it's not possible to paint the engines (like the 787) due performance reasons?

We discussed this up-thread. The nacelles can be painted before the frame and the reason for hanging the engines late are probably value related, A also install some high value cabin equipment at station A50 after painting. Perhaps Knoxibus knows the real answer, we (Kanban et al ) just speculated then  .

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-02-19 08:26:38 and read 50448 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 98):
We discussed this up-thread.

Thanks, I overlooked that information.

[Edited 2013-02-19 08:27:04]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: bigsmile
Posted 2013-02-19 10:26:40 and read 50137 times.

Quoting knoxibus (Reply 91):

Be prepared for some spotting soon.


I believe Friday is a good day to go spotting  

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: travelavnut
Posted 2013-02-19 10:46:27 and read 50033 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 97):
This video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0jlu0ghNIg shows the engines being attached after painting. I have two questions:

Great video.

Can anybody sheld some light on the reason the sequence of the stations is 59 > 50 > 40 > 30 > 18 > P > 20?

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-02-19 11:30:43 and read 50265 times.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 101):
Can anybody shed some light on the reason the sequence of the stations is 59 > 50 > 40 > 30 > 18 > P > 20?

It was also debated up-thread, we think it was because the old station system (all the way back to SNIAS/Aerospatial, forerunner of todays TLS FAL) named the production stations on how long they were from the exit door of the FAL. After the Painting there was in an earlier version of the production video the merging of the old A330/340 production halls which are called A50 (for the building I presume), now apparently it will be called Station 20 (new buildings) for some reason.

It is indeed confusing and must have historical roots.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-02-19 12:19:24 and read 50193 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 102):
It was also debated up-thread

With the risk you shoot me ... I've compared the picture of MSN1 on February 1 with the picture of today and I noticed the red door covers are gone:





Here is a close-up of such a cover:

http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/media_gallery/photogallery/big/800x600_1343891103_A350_XWB_MSN1_powered_up.jpg

What is the purpose of those covers, why are they red? The red color usually means danger, has it something to do with electricity?

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: Acheron
Posted 2013-02-19 21:21:00 and read 49315 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 103):
What is the purpose of those covers, why are they red? The red color usually means danger, has it something to do with electricity?

Probably to avoid damage while tools/furnishings/equipment are being moved around the doors.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-02-19 21:53:55 and read 49298 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 103):
With the risk you shoot me ...

No one gets shot around here and it's a very good question as well ! 
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 103):
I noticed the red door covers are gone:

As knoxibus and bidsmile hints, it is shortly from moving the bird to stations 18 for fuel and pressurization tests etc. I think these covers signals the frame is under power and that test are ongoing, now they seem to be finished with the station 30 tests and fits the last items like winglets and wing fairing my guess...and then roll her over to station 18. Exciting!

[Edited 2013-02-19 21:58:44]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: packsonflight
Posted 2013-02-20 00:18:47 and read 48913 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 103):
What is the purpose of those covers, why are they red? The red color usually means danger, has it something to do with electricity?

I guess it is red as "remove before flight" item like pitot cover.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-02-20 00:27:19 and read 48980 times.

Thanks everyone!

Quoting ferpe (Reply 105):
and then roll her over to station 18. Exciting!
It's starting to look like the rumoured roll-out date in April is becoming reality. Fingers crossed of course.

[Edited 2013-02-20 00:30:45]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: aviaponcho
Posted 2013-02-20 00:30:45 and read 48965 times.

Quoting packsonflight (Reply 106):

Sounds good for me
You can't move the airplane with open doors
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-r_4px-X7Uh...353674420_A350_XWB_static_test.jpg
So if red covers are off ... it will soon roll out of its current bay

And if I read right above, it's for Friday ? (with ou without engines ?)

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: flood
Posted 2013-02-20 00:31:53 and read 48973 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 90):
First winglet is on!

Wow, the winglet looks absolutely fantastic from that angle... looking forward to more pics. Bring on the roll-out!

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-02-20 00:38:11 and read 48941 times.

Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 108):
And if I read right above, it's for Friday ? (with ou without engines ?)

That's how I read it too  First station 18 for outdoor tests with ground power, then painting and engine attachment.

[Edited 2013-02-20 00:41:07]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: knoxibus
Posted 2013-02-20 00:38:19 and read 48940 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 102):
called A50 (for the building I presume), now apparently it will be called Station 20 (new buildings) for some reason.

I think you mix up building names and stations, that's why.

While I will try to only use info already available on the net, just to make it clear, the flow would be in the M50 FAL building:
Station 50 (fuselage join up+cabin) => station 40 (wing join-up + cabin) => station 30 (equipment, system tests and cabin completion)

Then outdoor => station 18 (fuel)
Then in the A330/A340 cabin FAL => final cabin and engines before going to the flight line.

This is very similar to the A330/A340 but with more upstream work.

Now the A50 building, being built, I think is to increase the number of stations 30. But I think there might be some changes to that.

Quoting bigsmile (Reply 100):
I believe Friday is a good day to go spotting

  

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: aviaponcho
Posted 2013-02-20 00:42:02 and read 48940 times.

Quoting knoxibus (Reply 111):

Quoting bigsmile (Reply 100):
I believe Friday is a good day to go spotting



Flute
Sorry
Damned

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-02-20 01:15:15 and read 49028 times.

MSN003 fuselage join completed!

Quote:
Fuselage sections for the third #A350XWB test aircraft have been joined at our Final Assembly Line in Toulouse!
http://twitter.com/Airbus/status/304156393940860928

[Edited 2013-02-20 01:26:09]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-02-20 01:24:53 and read 49001 times.

MSN003 parts in station 59:

http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/media_gallery/photogallery/big/800x600_1361303541_A350XWB-MSN3-assembly-startup2.jpg

Joining the parts:

Quote:
Build-up of the third A350 XWB commenced at this next-generation jetliner’s Toulouse, France final assembly line, where its three fuselage sections were joined

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: travelavnut
Posted 2013-02-20 01:32:30 and read 48906 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 102):
It was also debated up-thread,

Woops, didn't catch that, sorry Ferpe!

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 113):
MSN003 body join completed!

        

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: aviaponcho
Posted 2013-02-20 01:37:11 and read 48923 times.

Ferpe will not be happy

It's only low resolution pics, so he can't ding inside the fuselage to hunt improvements  

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: EPA001
Posted 2013-02-20 01:49:47 and read 48891 times.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 94):
It looks awesome!!

It sure does. Great picture!  .

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 94):
It has been said over- and over again, but I think I speak for the big group of leechers following this thread; ferpe, KarelXWB, lightsaber, astuteman and all the other knowledgeable contributors; thank you very very much for one of the most informing and educational threads on A.net!

I second that. This thread is fantastic and is an example of what Airliners.net such a great website to be on.  .

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 103):
What is the purpose of those covers, why are they red? The red color usually means danger, has it something to do with electricity?

Maybe it is covered in red since it might be a moving part where people working on the plane must pay attention to?

What strikes me is how wide the door opening is. That will make an easy access to the plane or to the gateway much easier.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-02-20 02:11:23 and read 48739 times.

Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 117):
he can't ding inside the fuselage to hunt improvements

You are sooooo right       

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: aviaponcho
Posted 2013-02-20 02:14:37 and read 48682 times.

I was planning the same  

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-02-20 04:18:10 and read 48569 times.

Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 117):
It's only low resolution pics, so he can't ding inside the fuselage to hunt improvements
Quoting ferpe (Reply 119):
You are sooooo right

Airbus is watching this thread, a high-res picture is now available at http://www.airbus.com/galleries/photo-gallery/  

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: aviaponcho
Posted 2013-02-20 04:32:06 and read 48299 times.

Fine !

We're watching Airbus
Airbus watches us

Everything's fine

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-02-21 03:05:59 and read 47243 times.

There is a bit of a quiet time (before another flurry as we're so close to the rollout ).
I spent my afternoon and my all evening off reading all this series of threads... I then realised that it's been going on for 16 months and some 1700 posts...
The glaring obviousness is that we have here in real time the physical birth of an airliner, from single compponents to assembly and testing.
It's the equivalent of a very well informed book written by a team of engineers / technicians + the much valued apport from aviation fanatics, all providing an incredible amount of information research into all sorts of documents, articles, manufacturers' specifications... The occasional troll is even part of the whole injterest as it (a troll is a beast  ) provides some entertainment in the very serious project.
Truly a gigantic achievement and a fascinating endeavour.
The only items I regret are those embedded pics or documents that are no longer available (?), in particular, because it annoyed me, CM's graphs... Could someone repost them ?

I can't name everybody, so I'll just say congratulations and thank you to all Ferpe's team.

PS : I hope Boeing solves the battery problem very soon, so that we'll see CM and Tom back amongst us, as I believe they are fully busy with their job.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-02-21 08:05:54 and read 46577 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 122):
I hope Boeing solves the battery problem very soon, so that we'll see CM and Tom back amongst us, as I believe they are fully busy with their job.

Thanks for the retrospect. As you say we want the 787 to fly ASAP, for two good reasons  :

- good for Boeing and the airline industry

- we get CM and Tom back, they are missed

  

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: abba
Posted 2013-02-21 09:11:23 and read 46286 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 122):
Truly a gigantic achievement and a fascinating endeavour


THE most interesting threat on A-net ever!

Quoting ferpe (Reply 123):
we get CM and Tom back, they are missed


Indeed they are!

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-02-22 13:04:23 and read 45310 times.

A little bit more information about MSN003: the fuselage join-up took place in station 50B which had a higher readiness level thanks to debugging that followed the initial two jetliners’ (MSN5000 & MSN001) assembly in station 50A.

http://oi50.tinypic.com/2cwrcp4.jpg

Source http://www.bloga350.blogspot.nl/

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-02-23 04:11:44 and read 44379 times.

Pratt & Whitney Said to Study Airbus A350 Engine to Rival Rolls

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: EPA001
Posted 2013-02-23 05:46:49 and read 44437 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 126):
Pratt & Whitney Said to Study Airbus A350 Engine to Rival Rolls

That could be an interesting development. But they are quite late to arrive at the party.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: PW100
Posted 2013-02-23 14:07:44 and read 43632 times.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 127):
But they are quite late to arrive at the party

. . . combined with

Quoting www.bloomberg.com:
Rolls has won exclusive rights from Airbus to offer the TrentXWB on the A350-1000, the largest model, while its position on the -900, the first and most popular version, and on the smaller -800, can be challenged.

. . . could indicate that P&W are looking seriously at A389 territory for their next step: (Wide-Body) WB-GTF. Application of such an engine on the lower powered models of the A350 may be a natural spin-off.

This may also line up pretty well with P&W planning, as they are currently heavily tied up in getting four GTF models in the air. In a couple of years time, they may have more resources on their hands for a WB-GTF, with EIS around 2020 - 2022.

The 351 remains locked by RR exclusivity, but I don’t think P&W would like to jump into the 100,000 lbs class with their GTF; 70k – 80k would do just nicely!

PW100

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: sf260
Posted 2013-02-23 15:10:36 and read 43403 times.

Quoting PW100 (Reply 128):

I was just thinking this earlier on: if GE and P&W extend their EA joint venture with a sort of "GEnx90 GTF", they might produce a hell of an engine (family) for the A350-800/900 & A380 (lower end) and 777X (higher end). They can offer some serious competition to RR and even please both manufacturers without shooting themselves in their foot.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-02-24 01:11:14 and read 42836 times.

Quoting sf260 (Reply 129):
I was just thinking this earlier on: if GE and P&W extend their EA joint venture with a sort of "GEnx90 GTF"

While it is logical I am not sure PW is 100% happy with the limitations that EA has had. They signed the agreement for a 70-80klbf engine for 4 holers but has according to the grapewine tried to offer this fine engine also to 2 hole programs such as A350. GE has blocked that as they have the GEnx in the same space.

If PW wants to now enter this space which holds applications for A380, A350 and possibly a further stretched 7810 weight wise I think they want to be free of any GE influence. GE can not have taken the latest losses in the 20klbf market lightly (EMB) and want to make PWs life as difficult as possible IMO in the modern 60k+ market which they control together with RR.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: AngMoh
Posted 2013-02-24 03:07:22 and read 42457 times.

Quoting bigsmile (Reply 100):
I believe Friday is a good day to go spotting  

Any success spotting last Friday?

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: BoeingVista
Posted 2013-02-24 05:33:18 and read 42112 times.

Quoting sf260 (Reply 129):
I was just thinking this earlier on: if GE and P&W extend their EA joint venture with a sort of "GEnx90 GTF",

Any extension onto the A350 would need EU agreement, the EA JV is limited to 4 engined aircraft.

The first availible slot for a PW engine would be in the 2020 timeframe, and moving further away, is any airline likely to comit to a 84k GTF that far ahead?

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: Rheinbote
Posted 2013-02-24 05:43:58 and read 42041 times.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 117):
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 103):
What is the purpose of those covers, why are they red? The red color usually means danger, has it something to do with electricity?

Maybe it is covered in red since it might be a moving part where people working on the plane must pay attention to?

You don't want anyone or anything to bump into these doors - they are 6-digit dollar items. Standrd color for all kinds of protective gear for airplanes and engines on ground.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: francoflier
Posted 2013-02-24 06:45:07 and read 41847 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 130):
If PW wants to now enter this space which holds applications for A380, A350 and possibly a further stretched 7810 weight wise I think they want to be free of any GE influence.

Undoubtedly. Any interesting and competitive engine in that thrust range will be a GTF, and I doubt they'll want to share much of that tech with GE or anybody.

The GTF will likely make it onto WBs, the question is when and on which one. Retrofits on future variants of the A350 or A380 (781?) seem indeed probable.

I can't wait to see how the smaller version does in real life ops.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: flyglobal
Posted 2013-02-24 07:39:30 and read 41698 times.

If I read the blomberg article right, Air France would be interested and could be first partner.
And it could raise interest of Airbus for the A350 at LH, because around 2020 is probably exactly the time LH may need them and with a brand new engine they may get the most efficient plane, along with updated A389s in 2021 (my crystal ball just indicates)
Also, the same A350 development would give the A380 line another step for future versions, be it the A388 or a new A389.
Given the potential volumes, it is attractive for both: Airbus and Pratt.

Regards

Flyglobal

[Edited 2013-02-24 07:44:04]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: BoeingVista
Posted 2013-02-24 20:10:56 and read 40998 times.

Quoting flyglobal (Reply 135):
If I read the blomberg article right, Air France would be interested and could be first partner.

Air France may just be looking for leverage to get RR to allow them to open a TXWB MRO operation.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: EPA001
Posted 2013-02-25 02:15:01 and read 40626 times.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 136):
Air France may just be looking for leverage to get RR to allow them to open a TXWB MRO operation.

The AF-KLM A350-order is according to rumors very close to the finish line. What and how the parties have agreed upon on the engines is still a secret. But hopefully soon we will know more.  .

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: PM
Posted 2013-02-25 02:50:52 and read 40434 times.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 137):
The AF-KLM A350-order is according to rumors very close to the finish line. What and how the parties have agreed upon on the engines is still a secret. But hopefully soon we will know more.

Along with an AFKL order for Trent 1000s for their 787s.   

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-02-25 03:24:55 and read 40232 times.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 137):
The AF-KLM A350-order is according to rumors very close to the finish line. What and how the parties have agreed upon on the engines is still a secret. But hopefully soon we will know more.

Unfortunately the expected date of signing the contract has been changed from Q1 2013 to "during 2013".

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...sults-airbus-idUSBRE91L09W20130222

[Edited 2013-02-25 03:29:37]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: flyglobal
Posted 2013-02-25 03:46:53 and read 40107 times.

Quoting this);" class="badspelling">KarelXWB (Reply 139):
Unfortunately the expected signing has been changed from "Q1 2013" to "during 2013".

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...this);" class="badspelling">sults-airbus-idUSBRE91L09W20130222




First Airbus isn't really Air France's first candidate 'to fall in love with', rather an emotionless relationship and in this case they even have to do in this);" class="badspelling">cinjunction with RR.THis has a smell of arranged marriage to me and so the partners deal with each other. (my crystal ball reads)

Lets see how this turns out.

Regards

Flyglobal

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-02-25 08:06:03 and read 39571 times.

Airbus is looking to add another assembly line.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...s-787-woes-fail-to-dent-sales.html

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: knoxibus
Posted 2013-02-26 02:59:54 and read 38579 times.

All right, the spotting can start, the beast is out!

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: EPA001
Posted 2013-02-26 03:03:07 and read 38587 times.

Quoting knoxibus (Reply 142):

All right, the spotting can start, the beast is out!

That is great news. Hope to see some pictures soon.  

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-02-26 03:16:58 and read 38522 times.

Can anyone point out on Google Maps where to find 'station 18' ?

http://oi47.tinypic.com/1zlzzo6.jpg

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: knoxibus
Posted 2013-02-26 04:42:59 and read 38233 times.

Here it is, I hope the link works:

http://goo.gl/maps/1Vu8W

It is quite in a different size league re. the height next to the A330s currently there.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-02-26 05:17:59 and read 38017 times.

Quoting knoxibus (Reply 145):
Here it is, I hope the link works:

Aha, so that is "station 18". Thanks.

Quoting knoxibus (Reply 145):
It is quite in a different size league re. the height next to the A330s currently there.

What are you waiting for, go grab your camera!  

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: knoxibus
Posted 2013-02-26 06:23:12 and read 37790 times.

I was at the "outting" this morning for the official pictures in front of the aircraft, why grab a camera when one professional photographer takes a picture of me while I'm standing 2 meters in front of the aircraft  ?

Sorry to brag about it, but it was quite an event for all of us present.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-02-26 06:28:38 and read 37752 times.

Quote:
I was at the "outting" this morning for the official pictures in front of the aircraft, why grab a camera when one professional photographer takes a picture of me while I'm standing 2 meters in front of the aircraft

Now the Airbus social media department needs to upload those pictures 
Quoting knoxibus (Reply 147):
Sorry to brag about it, but it was quite an event for all of us present.

No need to feel sorry, we all are excited!  

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: BoeingVista
Posted 2013-02-26 06:47:12 and read 37597 times.

Quoting knoxibus (Reply 147):

I was at the "outting" this morning for the official pictures in front of the aircraft, why grab a camera when one professional photographer takes a picture of me while I'm standing 2 meters in front of the aircraft ?

Sorry to brag about it, but it was quite an event for all of us present.

Brag away, just no making bunny signs behind peoples heads  

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-02-26 07:59:49 and read 37410 times.

BAM!

http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/media_gallery/photogallery/big/800x600_1361889296_A350_XWB_Roll_out_MSN1Feb_2013.jpg

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-02-26 08:14:45 and read 37317 times.

And the press release:

Quote:
The first A350 XWB – MSN001 – now showing its completed wings, has moved to its next phase of ground testing, from Roger Béteille A350 XWB FAL “Station 30” to the Clément Ader area “Station 18” in Toulouse. The aircraft is structurally complete and shows the installed winglets, belly fairing panels, main landing gear doors.

The aircraft has recently completed successfully a series of indoor ground tests as well as stability tests on ‘movable’ elements such as rudder, elevators, ailerons and wing spoilers and landing gears extraction/retraction. The next steps which will take place outdoors at the Station 18 ground test station will include three planned families of tests: Fuel tanks testing – including levels, flows, sealing and internal fuel transfer functions; pressure testing of the fuselage; and radio equipment testing.

A high-res picture can be found at http://www.airbus.com/presscentre/pr...plete-emerges-for-outdoor-testing/

[Edited 2013-02-26 08:15:33]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: BoeingVista
Posted 2013-02-26 08:20:52 and read 37397 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 151):
A high-res picture can be found at

The high res shows her traveling flaps down spoilers up, hydraulics must be pressurized as nose gear door is shut.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: abba
Posted 2013-02-26 08:27:44 and read 37343 times.

What a babe!

And just look at these huge and elegant wings! The impression completely changed when the winglets came on. Now we only need to see her properly dressed in the final paint scheme!

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: scbriml
Posted 2013-02-26 08:36:21 and read 37307 times.

Wow, and I thought the A330 looked good!   

Quoting abba (Reply 153):
Now we only need to see her properly dressed in the final paint scheme!

I think they may need to hang a pair of stonking Rollers under the wings as well!   

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: 817Dreamliiner
Posted 2013-02-26 08:42:10 and read 37223 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 150):

Thanks for the picture. Its finally starting to take shape   Just needs some engines and some paint!

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-02-26 09:06:45 and read 37057 times.

Nice, and a little earlier then one would have thought. Is the plan good enough for flight before le Bourget???


The nose looked a little funny before, now with this stance it looks very business like, almost grim.

"Aaargh, you old loosers get out of my way    "

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/MSN1goestoS18_zpse5a8f4d0.jpg

[Edited 2013-02-26 09:25:57]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: JD747
Posted 2013-02-26 09:09:53 and read 36943 times.

I think it's going to be a great looking airplane !!

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: AustrianZRH
Posted 2013-02-26 09:15:50 and read 36989 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 150):

http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/media_gallery/photogallery/big/800x600_1361889296_A350_XWB_Roll_out_MSN1Feb_2013.jpg

Now that's what I call a good looking airplane. I was worried that the new cockpit design spoils her looks but - at least from that angle - it's a gorgeous bird  .

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: rwood89
Posted 2013-02-26 09:24:24 and read 36871 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 150):
BAM!

Well hello! I cannot wait to see it with the Trent XWB's hanging and a lick of paint. I really hope Airbus have learnt lessons and this aircraft can keep to schedule (current   ).

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: Semaex
Posted 2013-02-26 09:26:57 and read 36869 times.

Is it just the perspective or are the wings LARGE? And winglets like razorblades!   

Gimme some powerplants and the dark side of the force has a new business jet!   

Love it!!

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-02-26 09:58:59 and read 36762 times.

Parked between the A330's:


(uploaded by Flox Papa)

[Edited 2013-02-26 10:00:15]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-02-26 10:21:59 and read 36459 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 161):
(uploaded by Flox Papa)


Seems the call-sign is set, picture says: F-WXWB   

time to program it into flightradar24 soon to follow the gauntlet testing    .

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: Bogi
Posted 2013-02-26 10:37:48 and read 36357 times.

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/4638/a350xwbrolloutmsn1feb20.jpg
very nice

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: affirmative
Posted 2013-02-26 10:47:56 and read 36239 times.

WOW! She is absolutely stunning. A bit menacing, almost frowning.. Love it!

Two thing really strikes me though. The distance between the wheels of the main gear bogey. Wouldn't that create an issue with stowing it? Quite impressive gear arrangement anyway.

Second, the wing profile in the root of the wing seems really extreme. Just after the leading edge the lower part of the wing at the root end seems almost convex. Also the leading edge of the wing/fairing has quite of an angle compared to other planes. Supercritical just got a new poster lady..  

On a side note; Thank you all Ferpe, Knoxibus, CM and all I have forgotten for this brilliant thread. Not one day passes without me checking in.

Now I just need to find a position putting me in the business end of this lady.

Happy landings all!

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-02-26 11:18:49 and read 35980 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 156):
Nice, and a little earlier then one would have thought. Is the plan good enough for flight before le Bourget???

The ground tests should not last long. To me it looks like MSN001 will meet the rumoured roll out date in April.

But there is still a lot of work to be done before first flight. Static testing have not yet begun for example.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 156):
"Aaargh, you old loosers get out of my way"


 Big grin

[Edited 2013-02-26 11:20:58]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: flood
Posted 2013-02-26 11:43:43 and read 35969 times.

Couple more pics:

http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/media_gallery/photogallery/big/800x600_1361900207_A350_XWB_roll_out_MSN1_.jpg

http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/media_gallery/photogallery/big/800x600_1361900210_A350_XWB_roll_out_MSN1.jpg

Looking great, love those wings and look forward to seeing her painted up with engines.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: kmz
Posted 2013-02-26 12:09:21 and read 35667 times.

the inner leading edge of the wings is pretty sharp...i haven't seen such a profile yet.









[Edited 2013-02-26 12:17:11]
Big version: Width: 1280 Height: 726 File size: 241kb


[Edited 2013-02-26 12:21:45]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-02-26 12:28:18 and read 35624 times.

Quoting kmz (Reply 167):
the inner leading edge of the wings is pretty sharp...i haven't seen such a profile yet.

Nice observation and magnifications, I did another observation:

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/MSN1goestoS18_2_zpse082372e.jpg

Both being very recent designs the aerodynamic shapes of the cockpit chins and wing fairings blends of the 350 and 787 are very different. The 787 is smaller scale but I think the differences are clearly seen, I have marked the areas with red circles on the opposite side.

   The A350 is considerably more sculptured, one has chased local fat in the cross section and thereby to not accelerate an air which is close to M1 anyway.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: kmz
Posted 2013-02-26 12:40:41 and read 35473 times.

we need a side-view picture  

[Edited 2013-02-26 12:44:31]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: sturmovik
Posted 2013-02-26 12:55:04 and read 35315 times.

Long time reader of the thread, first time posting here. Thanks everyone for the amazing discussion, it's been a pleasure to read.

Seeing the pics, she looks imposing! Once the engines are hung and she's painted, it would be quite a sight to look at!    The wings/winglets remind me of the elliptical ones fitted on the Citation X.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: kmz
Posted 2013-02-26 13:02:24 and read 35250 times.

I also wonder if this main landing gear configuration is louder during landing phase than the classic configuration because of the additional beam which is attached to the gear-beam

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-02-26 13:26:31 and read 35060 times.

Quoting kmz (Reply 171):
I also wonder if this main landing gear configuration is louder during landing phase than the classic configuration because of the additional beam which is attached to the gear-beam

It it the design that Boeing has used since the 767 at least, thus anyone which has flown the 767, 777, 787 should know if it has more landing gear down noise. A said it was the VC10 design, might have been but the most probable is that Messier told A how much better this design was then the classical A one on 300/310/330/340 after Messier got in on the 787 where B mandated this design.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: davs5032
Posted 2013-02-26 14:17:24 and read 34743 times.

Wow...she's definitely a looker!   

The winglets are fantastic, they definitely standout. I don't love the 6-pane cockpit (seems excessive/out dated as opposed to 4), but the nose profile itself distinct and eye-catching, and the 6-pane design definitely makes for a look consistent to the other Airbus product offerings. Can't wait to see her roll-out! Exciting times with two new planes debuting in the next 2 months.   

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 161):
KarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 698 posts, RR: 1
Reply 161, posted Tue Feb 26 2013 11:58:59 your local time (3 hours 55 minutes 21 secs ago) and read 2150 times:

Parked between the A330's:

--It appears from this picture that the A350's vertical stabilizer is noticeably narrower (measured fore-->aft) than on the A330; however it might just appear as such given that it's further in the distance. Am I just seeing things?

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: Phen
Posted 2013-02-26 14:26:44 and read 34576 times.

Quoting davs5032 (Reply 173):
It appears from this picture that the A350's vertical stabilizer is noticeably narrower (measured fore-->aft) than on the A330; however it might just appear as such given that it's further in the distance. Am I just seeing things?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the shorter the aircraft, the larger the vertical stabiliser. The A332's vertical stabiliser is bigger than that of the A333 for example. The A350-900 is longer than the A330-200 (i.e. that Fiji Airways A330 in the picture) so I would deduce that is why it's vertical stabiliser seems to be smaller.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ImperialAero
Posted 2013-02-26 14:52:45 and read 34426 times.

Quoting Phen (Reply 174):
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the shorter the aircraft, the larger the vertical stabiliser.

Partially correct, the longer the aircraft, the longer the moment arm for the rudder so the smaller the area required to produce the same force, however the asymetric-ness of thrust created by an engine failure during takeoff also affects the size of the vertical tail surfaces required...

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: travelavnut
Posted 2013-02-26 14:53:30 and read 34529 times.

Quoting davs5032 (Reply 173):
Exciting times with two new planes debuting in the next 2 months.

Being hammered after a hard days work I cannot for the life of me remember what the other debuting plane is, please help me! 

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: AngMoh
Posted 2013-02-26 15:31:34 and read 34511 times.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 176):
Being hammered after a hard days work I cannot for the life of me remember what the other debuting plane is, please help me! 

C-Series

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: Part147
Posted 2013-02-26 16:19:55 and read 34307 times.

Thanks so much for keeping us up to date with great pics guys - really appreciate it!

From the hi-res pictures, it looks like she has a tail-mounted camera just like the 380 - should be nice watching those wings flex from that angle eh?

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: kanban
Posted 2013-02-26 16:53:34 and read 34221 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 168):
350 and 787 are very different

as I look at the two, the 787 seems to be more plebeian but more poised for flight, the A350 seems a haughty be-speckled maiden.. however I'd fly either without a problem

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-02-26 17:37:48 and read 34105 times.

Quoting kmz (Reply 167):
the inner leading edge of the wings is pretty sharp...i haven't seen such a profile yet.

The apprent differences in the wing designs are striking :
The 787 airfoil at the junction to the fuselage seems to show its max thickness further forward on the chord than the 350... Did Boeing manage to realise a thickness ratio important enough to house a lot of fuel in a relatively smaller wing, but still achieve a low drag for the same cruise Mach number. In this case the 787 design is worthy of respêct.
The flap mechanism fairings are longer, relatively thinner for the 350 and there are three of them. I'd like to know the reason why.
As usual on Airbi, the wing-to-body fairing is sculpted and if the philosophy is similar to the 380 design, there is a lot of area ruling realised on that part ( Do the gondolas participate in the effect as on the 380 ,.. Seems so. ... and then it's a partial answer to the question above.

Quoting kanban (Reply 179):
as I look at the two, the 787 seems to be more plebeian but more poised for flight

Wait until the engines are hung onto that lovely wing... She'll be raring to fly, too.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-02-26 21:25:36 and read 33750 times.

Quoting Phen (Reply 174):
The A350-900 is longer than the A330-200 (i.e. that Fiji Airways A330 in the picture) so I would deduce that is why it's vertical stabiliser seems to be smaller.

The vertical stabilizer is a wing just like any other wing, it's ultimate force is to counteract those 84klbf strong Trents in an engine out case. By making it higher and lankier you increase the aspect ratio compared to the 330 piece, ie you reduce induced drag, in this case in the yawing direction. Any reduction in drag from wherever it comes (vertical as well as horizontal) when you just have one engine is welcome, it affects the TO power needed for your MTOW. Both the 787 and 350 have high aspect ratio fins.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: douglasyxz
Posted 2013-02-26 22:27:40 and read 33613 times.

Looks like a little bird that has just craweld out of its eggshell, knowing it's supposed to fly but doesn't know how. Patience, little bird, you'll be flying soon.

Hats off to all those who have contributed to this masterpiece of engineering. Well done so far.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: autothrust
Posted 2013-02-26 23:35:22 and read 33358 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 180):
The flap mechanism fairings are longer, relatively thinner for the 350 and there are three of them.

I never understood why Airbus generally made such big flap mechanism fairings, like on the A330 compared to the rather smaller on the 777.

Now it seems they have a change in the way how they design them and make them smaller. Took it so long for Airbus to figure that out?

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: abba
Posted 2013-02-26 23:53:40 and read 33287 times.

As to the overall shape of the wing when looking at the profile from the front. It seems as if the 350 have a somewhat curved wing (as does the 330). In contrast, the 787 has a much straighter wing as can be seen on this photo:
http://blog.seattlepi.com/aerospace/...-dreamliner-is-on-the-flight-line/
What is the reason for this difference?

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: oldeuropean
Posted 2013-02-27 00:43:01 and read 32954 times.

Quoting abba (Reply 184):
As to the overall shape of the wing when looking at the profile from the front. It seems as if the 350 have a somewhat curved wing (as does the 330).

Well, the engines (or substitute weights) are not mounted. The wings will come down a bit.

[Edited 2013-02-27 00:45:58]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: abba
Posted 2013-02-27 01:25:17 and read 32674 times.

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 185):
Well, the engines (or substitute weights) are not mounted. The wings will come down a bit.



I do not think that this will make the difference. If you draw a line from the wing root to the pylon and another line from the pylon to where the winglet is mounted you will see that these two lines are in slightly a different angle to the fuselage. On the 787 it seems as if you can draw one single straight line from the root to the tip.
(Or perhaps it is only an illusion due to slightly different angles...)

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: moo
Posted 2013-02-27 02:01:46 and read 32406 times.

Quoting autothrust (Reply 183):
Now it seems they have a change in the way how they design them and make them smaller. Took it so long for Airbus to figure that out?

I think its a bit disingenuous to say "took it so long for Airbus to figure that out" as that puts a certain slant on it.

Aircraft design is a huge barrel of compromise and parts that fit together to make a whole - going in one particular direction for one component is rarely something that can happen on its own, in complete isolation. It has knock on effects, it requires changes elsewhere, which in turn....

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: EPA001
Posted 2013-02-27 02:10:55 and read 32420 times.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 154):
Wow, and I thought the A330 looked good!

She looks more and more promising indeed. And that without the engines and the paint.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 150):
BAM!

Thanks for the "BAM".  .

Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 158):
Now that's what I call a good looking airplane. I was worried that the new cockpit design spoils her looks but - at least from that angle - it's a gorgeous bird  .

She sure is.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 180):
Wait until the engines are hung onto that lovely wing... She'll be raring to fly, too.

Those wings are gorgious, especially the wing tip. And with those engines mounted on to her, she will be indeed raring to fly.  .

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-02-27 03:05:58 and read 32131 times.

Quoting abba (Reply 184):
As to the overall shape of the wing when looking at the profile from the front. It seems as if the 350 have a somewhat curved wing (as does the 330). In contrast, the 787 has a much straighter win

You mean the broken line on the A350 (red and yellow in the picture) vs the straigth line for a 787 from root to tip:

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/A350_XWB_roll_out_MSN1_smalldihedral_zps193649d9.jpg

The reason (IMO) is a combination of engine ground clearance strategy and aerodynamic needs. An aircraft shall have a certain amount of dihedral stability, ie it shall return to wings-level after a disturbance making it wiggle in roll. You need the right amount, to little is not good (spiral instability), to much not good as well (dutch roll tendency). So you want a bit of angle upward (dihedral). Now everything counts, those who have built model planes know you could either crank the wings or just the wingtips (= winglets ). The 787 have raked wingtips = low dihedral contribution and the engines hangs unusually high (see CMs post up-thread), thus they can put one angle from root to tip which makes life simpler with build and all movable surfaces.

The A350 has larger engines and don't hang them as high / far forward. Thus they need the inner wing to crank more upward to get the engine ground clearance. To not get to much dihedral they then crank the outer wing down especially as they use winglets and not raked tips.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: abba
Posted 2013-02-27 03:23:10 and read 31931 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 189):
You mean the broken line on the A350 (red and yellow in the picture) vs the straigth line for a 787 from root to tip


Exactly (I am sorry I can't work with pics as well as you) - and thank you for your explanation. Beside the technical reasons it gives the 350 a certain elegance - almost like an albatross in flight!

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: overcast
Posted 2013-02-27 04:09:57 and read 31653 times.

I'm just wondering out load the timeline to first flight. I assume the outstanding tasks are:
1. Station 18 - Fuel, Hydraulics, Pressurisation
2. Paint
3. Official roll-out( necessary PR..)
4. Engine and Taxi test
5. First Flight

I can't remember the timeline for the A380, but with the apparent completeness of MSN1, I would have thought we are looking at a mid April Roll-out and FF late May

Is there any news on the Static tests, they should have started, or be starting soon.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: moo
Posted 2013-02-27 04:21:19 and read 31634 times.

Quoting overcast (Reply 191):
I can't remember the timeline for the A380, but with the apparent completeness of MSN1, I would have thought we are looking at a mid April Roll-out and FF late May

The A380 has its public reveal on 18th January 2005, and its first flight on 27th April 2005.

The A380 was seen in a similar state to the A350 in this thread on the 6th October 2004.

So based on the A380 timescale, there was nearly 7 months between station move and first flight.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: Starbucks
Posted 2013-02-27 04:35:01 and read 31561 times.

Soooo finally registered after years of just reading (and especially this thread)

Just want to thank everybody and I'll try to make my contribution to this fabulous community  

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-02-27 04:43:08 and read 31519 times.

Quoting overcast (Reply 191):
1. Station 18 - Fuel, Hydraulics, Pressurisation

Can't require that much time, 2 to 3 weeks maybe?

Quoting overcast (Reply 191):
2. Paint

1 week?

Quoting overcast (Reply 191):
3. Official roll-out( necessary PR..)

You are forgetting one more step: station 20 for engine attachment and cockpit finishing. This can take another 2 weeks?

Quoting overcast (Reply 191):

4. Engine and Taxi test
5. First Flight

Airbus will hand over the key to the flight crew after official roll out. The crew will do some extending testing before first flight. I believe the first 787 in Charleston flew after 3 weeks of thorough testing.

They also need data from the static frame, I have no idea how long that will take.

Quoting overcast (Reply 191):
Is there any news on the Static tests, they should have started, or be starting soon.

Static testing should start next month.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferret
Posted 2013-02-27 08:09:58 and read 30665 times.

I am personally a little disappointed in the nose of the aircraft. I understand the need for commonality, but the windscreen shapes look dated and disjointed and not as elegant as the rest of the aircraft. I also think the nose gear being so far forward doesn't do it any aesthetic favors either. But of course, function before form. I am just a bit disappointed as I've always liked Airbus' looks over Boeing's, and this time the design just seems more evolutionary than revolutionary. To me, Boeing has made a rare win in visual appeal for me this time....it's silly I know, just an opinion.  

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: autothrust
Posted 2013-02-27 16:39:10 and read 29325 times.

Quoting ferret (Reply 195):
the windscreen shapes look dated and disjointed and not as elegant as the rest of the aircraft.

Couldn't agree more.

Quoting ferret (Reply 195):
this time the design just seems more evolutionary than revolutionary.

Really dissapointing, If they would have keep the old A350 nose design it would have been revolutionary. Instead the 787 looks way more revloutionary then the final A350 nose design.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: art
Posted 2013-02-27 17:05:52 and read 29193 times.

Quoting ferret (Reply 195):
the windscreen shapes look dated and disjointed and not as elegant as the rest of the aircraft. I also think the nose gear being so far forward doesn't do it any aesthetic favors either. But of course, function before form.

I can understand that the nose gear is dictated by engineering considerations but is there anything to dictate the shape of the cockpit windows? Would prettier window shapes affect the aircraft in any way (assuming they give good vision to the flight crew)?

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-02-27 17:08:10 and read 29268 times.

Quoting art (Reply 197):
I can understand that the nose gear is dictated by engineering considerations but is there anything to dictate the shape of the cockpit windows? Would prettier window shapes affect the aircraft in any way (assuming they give good vision to the flight crew)?

No.

Airbus changed to the A380 windscreen geometry for cost and time reasons, not due to an issue with the original design.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-02-27 17:43:58 and read 29188 times.

Quoting art (Reply 197):
I can understand that the nose gear is dictated by engineering considerations

Everything is dictated by engineering choices : Putting the nose gear so far forwards - about 1 m closer to the pilots'seat than the 787 - 1/ makes taxying that much easier and 2/ liberates enough space to proviode room for a crew rest area.
As for the windows, having seen engineers' difficultyy in changing a Tristar pane or a 777, i daresay that smaller panes make life a lot easier for the engineers..
TRhe result is that visibility from the cockpits are similar : on the 787, one has vision of a closer point in front of the airplane ( some 60 cm ) and on the 350 the pilots can see their wingtips.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: PM
Posted 2013-02-27 19:27:29 and read 29020 times.

Is it just me, or does it look rather 757-ish?

And I mean that as a compliment!  

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: astuteman
Posted 2013-02-27 21:59:41 and read 28793 times.

Quoting art (Reply 197):
I can understand that the nose gear is dictated by engineering considerations but is there anything to dictate the shape of the cockpit windows?

Yes.
Cost vs benefit trade-off.

Rgds

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: Part147
Posted 2013-02-27 23:50:38 and read 28875 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 198):
No.
Quoting astuteman (Reply 201):
Yes.

Now, now gentlemen... let's not fall out over it!


  

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: astuteman
Posted 2013-02-28 15:09:48 and read 27158 times.

Quoting Part147 (Reply 202):
Now, now gentlemen... let's not fall out over it!

That was us agreeing. Couldn't you tell?  

Rgds

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: 14ccKemiskt
Posted 2013-02-28 16:06:53 and read 27016 times.

Quoting ferret (Reply 195):
Quoting autothrust (Reply 196):


That is why all A350s are going to get the area around and between the cockpit windows painted black. Haven't you seen all the CGI promotion pictures?

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-02-28 23:57:55 and read 26532 times.

The A350 blog has a short story saying RR is shipping spare engines so that the flight test can be safely done even if FOD would hit one of the flight engines. Then they publish this rather sensational quote:

"The engines are ready and capable to go to their limits from day one, should Airbus choose to do so," says Young (RR program manager, my addition). "The program - which we're fully supporting with our initial flight-compliant engines - has a very clear aim to make sure that first flight is prior to the Paris air show."  Wow!

This would be the first person involved with the program that says something like that, I tried to verify the quote but can't find the reference flightglobal article "Based on the article “All eyes on XWB” published in FlightGlobal". Instead I found this interesting company leaflet from UTC Aerostructures ie Goodrich who makes the XWB nacelle:

http://www.goodrich.com/gr-ext-templ...0at%20Aerostructures/SKY013013.pdf

The first engine has been at their TLS facility since 16 Jan and is being equipped with flight instrumentation and being built into the the nacelle since. The second engine should be there since early Feb :

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/TrentXWBatUTCTLS_zps4ad5e7a4.jpg

Here a description of all the work involved in preparing the engines for MSN001:

" Waiting for the engine were all of its nacelle components. The fan cowls came from Aerostructures Riverside facility.m The thrust reversers, made in Chula Vista, stopped first at the Rolls-Royce facility in Derby UK -- where the Trent engine family is designed and manufactured -- before traveling onto Toulouse. The exhaust nozzle assemblies, meanwhile, shipped from the San Marcos, Texas site (also passing through Derby first). And the inlet cowls arrived from the Airbus plant in Saint-Nazaire, France. "


The delivery date for the completed propulsion system for MSN001 is scheduled for early March which seems to fit with MSN001 being at Station 18 now. I would guess the nacelle parts are painted when they are mounted at UTC, to paint them with an engine inside makes no sense. Then we know why the engines are not hanged for the painting, these are 10m€ pieces (in series, the first cost 10 times that or more), no point in having them in a fumy paint shop covered in plastic foil  Wow! while the guys spray paint on the nacelle outsides.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: starbucks
Posted 2013-03-01 01:30:14 and read 26124 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 205):
I would guess the nacelle parts are painted when they are mounted at UTC, to paint them with an engine inside makes no sense. Then we know why the engines are not hanged for the painting

Looking at this a little bit further in your linked file I would say your guess is right  
Quote:
"We'll have a robotized moving assembly line," Didier explained. "Equipment designed to accommodate the very large size of the A350 nacelle components is in place. The expansion also includes sanding and paint booths, as well as an infrared tunnel for a rapid curing of painted nacelle components.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-03-01 01:36:29 and read 26092 times.

I have no doubt that Airbus is internally aiming for a first flight before the air show. But they are not creating a hype so to the outside world they are saying "the air show is not a priority".

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: parapente
Posted 2013-03-01 01:42:38 and read 26085 times.

I have no doubt that Airbus is internally aiming for a first flight before the air show. Post 207

If they do, we could end up with the interesting situation where the A350 is flying whilst the B787 is not!

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: rwood89
Posted 2013-03-01 06:52:47 and read 25329 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 194):
I believe the first 787 in Charleston flew after 3 weeks of thorough testing.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the 787 become nearly airbourne during high speed taxi tests? I'm positive I read it during the fground test campaign but can't remember if it was the 787 or another aircraft been referred to at the time.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-03-02 02:16:56 and read 24382 times.

More pictures:

1) MSN001 with MSN003 in the background
http://pizzainmotion.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/msn1_and_msn3-2.jpg

2) Group hug! (where is knoxibus Big grin)
http://pizzainmotion.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/pp_25-2.jpg

3) Station 18
http://pizzainmotion.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/pp_34-2.jpg

http://pizzainmotion.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/pp_39-2.jpg

http://pizzainmotion.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/pp_31-2.jpg

http://pizzainmotion.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/pp_29-2.jpg

[Edited 2013-03-02 02:46:31]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: CCA
Posted 2013-03-02 02:21:36 and read 24204 times.

The aft wing body fairing is very unique.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: teme82
Posted 2013-03-02 03:50:07 and read 23846 times.

Quoting CCA (Reply 211):
The aft wing body fairing is very unique.

Indeed it is. Would love to see a close up on that part of the plane.  

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: starbucks
Posted 2013-03-02 04:24:37 and read 23726 times.

I think I'm in love..   :P

Can't wait to see those huge Rollers on her wings and some paint...

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: a380900
Posted 2013-03-02 04:30:27 and read 23691 times.

Quoting teme82 (Reply 212):
Quoting CCA (Reply 211):
The aft wing body fairing is very unique.

Indeed it is. Would love to see a close up on that part of the plane.

Yes, it looks "simpler" that what we used to see on the A320 and A380 which looked fairly similar for an untrained eye. Does anyone know what's up with that?

Also, I got used to seeing planes without engine having dead weight hanging there to keep the wing in shape (or maybe that's what I thought it was for). Why not in this case? Because it is not necessary when it's only for a few days?

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: EPA001
Posted 2013-03-02 04:55:06 and read 23629 times.

Quoting starbucks (Reply 213):
Can't wait to see those huge Rollers on her wings and some paint...

That will make a huge difference imho. And it is already a great looking airplane.  .

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: BoeingVista
Posted 2013-03-02 04:55:27 and read 23612 times.

Quoting a380900 (Reply 214):
Also, I got used to seeing planes without engine having dead weight hanging there to keep the wing in shape (or maybe that's what I thought it was for). Why not in this case? Because it is not necessary when it's only for a few days?

If you look closely there is a square blue thing with a yellow base hanging from the pylons, i think that this is a weight

Quoting CCA (Reply 211):
The aft wing body fairing is very unique.

Looks like they have taken a leaf from F1 areodynamics about reattaching seperated airflows.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-03-02 04:55:56 and read 23646 times.

Quoting a380900 (Reply 214):
Also, I got used to seeing planes without engine having dead weight hanging there to keep the wing in shape (or maybe that's what I thought it was for). Why not in this case? Because it is not necessary when it's only for a few days?

If I understand it correctly those weights are used so the plane won't tip on its tail. No idea why MSN001 does not have those weights attached but it might be an indication that the fuel tanks are filled?

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 216):
If you look closely there is a square blue thing with a yellow base hanging from the pylons, i think that this is a weight

Well spotted  Wink

[Edited 2013-03-02 04:58:33]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-02 05:00:48 and read 23633 times.

Quoting teme82 (Reply 212):

Quoting CCA (Reply 211):
The aft wing body fairing is very unique.

Indeed it is. Would love to see a close up on that part of the plane.

You'll have more details in the 350 site. Click on the drawings and you'll see that Airbus have really done a good job sculpting the wing-to-body junction. See it HERE
If one rermbers the LEX (leading edge extension) that, for instance the F18 shows, it seems that they've re-invented the TEX - for "trailing edge extension " in order to reduce / diminish the effect of the turbulent airflow always present when an airfoil discontinuity occurs.
This wing is a thing of beauty. The rear view is worthy of a display in a museum.

PS : The best view of that part is on the Afriqiah pic you have at the bottom of the first page of the 350 gallery. Download it at the highhest resolution... Someone can upload it here ?

[Edited 2013-03-02 05:08:42]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-03-02 05:21:11 and read 23583 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 218):
PS : The best view of that part is on the Afriqiah pic you have at the bottom of the first page of the 350 gallery. Download it at the highhest resolution... Someone can upload it here ?


Click for full size:

http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/media_gallery/photos/aircraft/a350%20family/a350-900/A350-900_Afriqiyah.jpg

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: Revelation
Posted 2013-03-02 07:28:33 and read 23077 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 205):
This would be the first person involved with the program that says something like that

I happened to google up a report from the same series from Oct 2012 (great minds think alike?) that also said the same goal:

http://www.goodrich.com/gr-ext-templ...t%20Aerostructures/SKY10032012.pdf

Quote:

Airbus needs the podded propulsion package for flight test aircraft Number One at its final assembly line
by January." Peters said the first flight of flight test aircraft No. 1 is slated to occur sometime before the Paris Air
Show in June 2013.

It seems the unofficial goal has been thoroughly outed.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 205):
Then we know why the engines are not hanged for the painting, these are 10m€ pieces (in series, the first cost 10 times that or more), no point in having them in a fumy paint shop covered in plastic foil Wow! while the guys spray paint on the nacelle outsides.

I'll add that I once read what the completed nacelle costs and it was pretty amazing. A lot of engineering goes into them!

Quoting astuteman (Reply 201):
Cost vs benefit trade-off.
Quoting 14ccKemiskt (Reply 204):

That is why all A350s are going to get the area around and between the cockpit windows painted black. Haven't you seen all the CGI promotion pictures?

Both statements are consistent: if you want it to look cool, just throw on some black paint! In fact it may also help reduce reflected light if it was black (and that's a good cover story too!).

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 219):
Click for full size:

Fabulous rendering. I'm thinking I might like the proportions of the -1000 a bit more, time will tell.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: EPA001
Posted 2013-03-02 08:36:23 and read 22888 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 220):
Fabulous rendering. I'm thinking I might like the proportions of the -1000 a bit more, time will tell.

Time will tell indeed. My guess is that the A350-900 will be the version with the best proportions. Just as I like the A340-500 better then the A340-600. And that is also why I like the B77L better then the B77W.  .

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: autothrust
Posted 2013-03-02 08:48:38 and read 22818 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 219):
Click for full size:

Am i the only one who thinks the horizontal stabiliser looks like a fish fin?

The fuselage and wings are amazing.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: kmz
Posted 2013-03-02 09:04:49 and read 22763 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 218):
TEX - for "trailing edge extension

let's hope it is aerodynamically 100% ...otherwise the a/c might produce some nice soundz  

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-03-02 20:24:34 and read 21789 times.

The sculpturing of the wing fairing is indeed intriguing, I have seldom seen such an elaborate shaping on an airliner, perhaps on a high M (0.9 or more) business jet. Up-thread I compare the head-on view of the 350 with the 787 and it is clear the 350 wing faring is deeper, this comes from the 350 wing being larger but also having 1-2% higher relative thickness then the 787. This made me a bit concerned about the fairings drag contribution.

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/MSN001toP182_zpsd6decce4.jpg

Seeing the finished fairing makes this appear as very elaborately shaped to contribute to a good area ruling around the critical fuselage-wing-engines area, thus contributing to low (transonic) drag. The trick if to keep the rate of total cross section change low, thus not inducing unnecessary airflow speed increases over the already high cruise M of 0.85. One can clearly see how the engineers has made the start of the fairing as slender as possible, cutting in on the sides, then a elegant middle section with a very graceful join area and finally a more bulbous finish with that exiting blend step for the over and under wing airstreams.

It makes for a most beautiful wing to fuselage join in the process, one of the more stylish areas of the A350. Great to see this piece of advanced engineering    .


The 787 has it's stylish nose and wings/wingtips, the 350 an intriguing nose, a beautiful wing fairing and nice ti(..p)s as well  . We are a lucky bunch of aficionados   


PS sorry for not having a higher res photo to magnify from, the last photos seems to have made the way over a 350 FAL member to a friends blog to the 350 blog and finally here, they are low res all the way however. DS

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: Chipmunk2307
Posted 2013-03-02 21:17:05 and read 21633 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 224):
The sculpturing of the wing fairing is indeed intriguing,
Quoting ferpe (Reply 224):
Seeing the finished fairing makes this appear as very elaborately shaped to contribute to a good area ruling around the critical fuselage-wing-engines area, thus contributing to low (transonic) drag.

Is it a sound theory that the fairing is probably oversized for its current requirements but appropriately sized for the A350-1000 which is suggested to have a 6 wheel MLG?

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: zeke
Posted 2013-03-02 22:31:07 and read 21533 times.

Quoting Bogi (Reply 163):

ARTF Kit, batteries included.

Kit does not contain Pilots, Engines, and Fuel.
Fuel required : Jet A, Jet A1 or similar.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-03-02 22:37:00 and read 21920 times.

Quoting Chipmunk2307 (Reply 225):

Is it a sound theory that the fairing is probably oversized for its current requirements but appropriately sized for the A350-1000 which is suggested to have a 6 wheel MLG?

No, I would not think so. The wing fairing is made up of many small pieces and therefore easily modified in length, just make the section over the main landing gears longer and you have the A350-1000 fairing. Such a change does also not affect the area ruling as it is on the mid reasonably constant part, ie for the initial and final part you could keep the same parts (not sure A does however). The fairing will stay the same for the -800 but not the -1000.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: Chipmunk2307
Posted 2013-03-03 03:53:52 and read 21257 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 227):

Thank you for that. I wasn't sure to what degree of commonality is actually kept between various models of the same plane. I would have thought you still get better volumes and cost efficiency by using the one design as opposed to having to make variations. But then I don't build planes to make a living so I could only speculate.

Cheers

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-03-03 06:20:16 and read 20930 times.

Quoting Chipmunk2307 (Reply 228):
. I wasn't sure to what degree of commonality is actually kept between various models of the same plane.

A wing fairing on a modern airliner is a lattice of access hatches and panels all attached to a metal frame, see the left and top pictures below. I also thought it would be a semi 1 piece molding until I started to follow the fairing on the A350 but it is far from it. The picture below we used up-thread when we dissected the fairing area:

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/A350bellyfairing.jpg

The lower right picture shows the air condition, hydraulics and fuel piping in this area. Further you have the central flap and slat/droop nose mechanisms and motors, aircond, nitro gen pacs, RAT.....

So a very busy beneath with a multitude of hatches and panels, actually one of the more crowded areas on the frame. It is where you can pass things from the engines to the rest of the frame or from front to back without having to penetrate the fuselage pressure zone and also easily get from left to right, up and down (keel bottom or fuselage floor through the MLG well) once again without having to bother about sealing the areas you pass. The final step is then a penetration of the hull if you want to pass e.g fuel to the APU or hydraulic to the tail but you only do it once, at the extreme end of the fairing.

So while it seems like a low tech cover of the wing-fuselage junction it is actually one of the more intricate and interesting areas of the frame .


Let me just add one more comment on the TEX (nice invention Pihero Big grin ), what is clear is that the aero guys want to influence the overside of the wingroot to keep the pressure gradient low in this area. They do that by letting the fairing swell onto the inner parts of the wing to keep the pressure in this area higher and thus making the transonic shock from supersonic flow to subsonic weaker. By weakening it they avoid that it beats the boundary layer to let go during cruise and causing the turbulence Pihero writes about. But then the moment of truce  Wow! appears at the end of the wing where the over wing fairing is broader then the under wing path. Solution! A step like on the best boat racer, tuned to fit the stream during cruise. In other flight regimes it creates its shedded vortices but that is not affecting trip fuel unless one gets separation all the way back on the tail in eg the climb phase. CFD should have explored that to satisfaction  .

[Edited 2013-03-03 06:37:15]

[Edited 2013-03-03 06:40:15]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-03-03 07:10:26 and read 20777 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 89):
The most honorable senator is covering some vital parts of our aeroplane but what one can see is:

@ferpe (and others  ) I've found another high-res picture of MSN001 in station 30. This one is from February 11:

http://www.eads.com/eads/int/en/news...537c0728d939.-A350+Production.html

This picture shows many details, including tooling etc.

[Edited 2013-03-03 07:13:10]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-03-03 09:05:02 and read 20418 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 230):
another high-res picture of MSN001 in station 30

It is a nice high-res picture, what one can observe there is what you point out, how extensive the scaffolding/platform build-up is compared to e.g. the Boeing production lines. Below the entrance areas back and front with the access from the elevator at the back to each level, bringing e.g. the seats to the rear cabin door. On the front platforms one goes directly from the offices to the appropriate entrance. This is all congruent with a fixed station principle:

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/MSN001atstation30accessplatforms_zps78d1508b.jpg

The contrast is total to the Boeing moving line philosophy with minimal scaffolding/platforms, instead relying on movable staircases and elevation loops for e.g. the seats. Here the 788 in about the same position of the FAL:



[Edited 2013-03-03 09:12:50]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-03-03 09:13:19 and read 20382 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 231):
Here the 788 in about the same position of the FAL:

And that's already an old picture with a lot of scaffolding around the wings. Later pictures shows almost no scaffolding at all:



[Edited 2013-03-03 09:15:57]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: packsonflight
Posted 2013-03-04 02:17:48 and read 19098 times.

I find the picture above taken from behind interesting...

Is the red square attached to the fuselage in the tail skid position the skid pad for the min unstick speed test?

Also as other people have mentioned before, the tailcone is unusually shaped on the sides. What is the purpose of this unique layout? This configuration reduces the span of the stab, which makes the whole structure lighter, so is this only a weight saving exercise or are there some aerodynamic gains too?

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-04 03:29:30 and read 18860 times.

Quoting packsonflight (Reply 233):
the tailcone is unusually shaped on the sides. What is the purpose of this unique layout? This configuration reduces the span of the stab, which makes the whole structure lighter, so is this only a weight saving exercise or are there some aerodynamic gains too?

It's Airbus trademark area ruling on this part.
See similar pictures of the A380. The design is much simpler than for the wing-to-body fairing as the surfaces involved are simpler - it's just about the evolution of the tailplane surface ( cross sections)

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: BoeingVista
Posted 2013-03-04 04:14:27 and read 18667 times.

Quoting packsonflight (Reply 233):

Is the red square attached to the fuselage in the tail skid position the skid pad for the min unstick speed test?

That would be a fair bet.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 234):
It's Airbus trademark area ruling on this part.
See similar pictures of the A380. The design is much simpler than for the wing-to-body fairing as the surfaces involved are simpler - it's just about the evolution of the tailplane surface ( cross sections)

I think an interesting design point is the flat top of the fuselage at the vertical stabiliser, it hardly tapers at all in any direction, this is very unlike the 787 or A380.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: 777222LR
Posted 2013-03-04 05:49:01 and read 18297 times.

Can anyone tell me how high this aircraft sits compared to the 777? This baby looks tall, and I'm not talking about tail height, as that's not a good comparison. I'm talking about how high the bottom of the fuselage sits off the ground. It seems VERY tall. Anyone else get this impression?

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-04 07:23:04 and read 18014 times.

Quoting 777222LR (Reply 236):
I'm talking about how high the bottom of the fuselage sits off the ground. It seems VERY tall. Anyone else get this impression?

From the A350 ACAP
page 2.3.0 gives the bottom of the engine at n.74m / 2.43 ft and
page 5.4.2 p 3 gives the external power receptacle at 2.58 m... Not that tall, considering the size of the airplane.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-03-04 10:50:19 and read 17415 times.

I've found a pictue of MSN001's cockpit as it was in October last year:


(uploaded by Alberto Garcia)

Alberto confirmed this is MSN001.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aeroagp/8326216070/

Looks pretty complete to me.

[Edited 2013-03-04 10:53:19]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: douglasyxz
Posted 2013-03-04 12:23:16 and read 16981 times.

I'm wondering why sidestick, gear, flaps and thrust levers are covered while speed and parking brake levers are not.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-03-06 08:46:21 and read 15253 times.

A center fuselage part has been spotted in Hamburg:


(uploaded by Olivier Cabaret)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliviercabaret/8534626888/in/photostream/

No info about the MSN number.

[Edited 2013-03-06 08:47:06]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: overcast
Posted 2013-03-06 09:09:26 and read 15073 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 240):

A center fuselage part has been spotted in Hamburg:

That section should never get anywhere near Hamburg in that level of completion, so I'd assume it's for Fatigue testing.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: abba
Posted 2013-03-06 10:25:13 and read 14741 times.

I wonder about the funny painting on the lower part. Why is that?

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-03-06 10:27:21 and read 14734 times.

Quoting overcast (Reply 241):
That section should never get anywhere near Hamburg in that level of completion, so I'd assume it's for Fatigue testing.

Sorry I had it wrong, this picture was taken in Saint-Nazaire.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KL911
Posted 2013-03-06 10:52:36 and read 14561 times.

Quoting abba (Reply 242):
I wonder about the funny painting on the lower part. Why is that?

Lol, that is no paint, it is where the wings will be attached to the fuselage  

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: abba
Posted 2013-03-06 10:59:31 and read 14494 times.

Quoting KL911 (Reply 244):
Lol, that is no paint, it is where the wings will be attached to the fuselage


Yep - the grey area is where the wing will be attached - not the funny brown area surrounding it (unless Airbus is going to put on a homogeneously huge wing on this one!)
Notice also the grey area top right of the attachment area. i do not remember to have seen that before either.

[Edited 2013-03-06 11:09:19]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KL911
Posted 2013-03-06 11:22:29 and read 14367 times.

Quoting abba (Reply 245):
Yep - the grey area is where the wing will be attached - not the funny brown area surrounding it (unless Airbus is going to put on a homogeneously huge wing on this one!)

If you look at the picture at post 224 you see what I mean

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-03-06 11:55:33 and read 14148 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 240):
No info about the MSN number.

I think it indeed is the fatigue test specimen for the central test unit going to IABG Erding outside Munich if I am not mistaken. Post 73 show this test item which also carries the wings, these will be attached on place as the whole thing can not be transported.

It should then be MSN5001 middle section, the unit is finished (that is why it is outside to be shipped) but does not carry any systems, just a lot of red plugs where the system items should have been. It also fits with the production order described in post 73, we know that Spirit has shipped 4 shipsets until 1 Feb this year, the forth arriving in January is now mated to the wingbox-wheel well-keelbeam and ready to go to fatigue wing join at Erding and then start the test there.

Re the brown color of the lower part of the unit, this is the part of the middle section being under the wing fairing, thus it will not be painted when the frame goes in the paint hangar. This paint/primer is therefore applied for life and has another composition then the yellowish one which shall form a base layer for the aircrafts final paint.

[Edited 2013-03-06 11:59:19]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-03-06 13:00:39 and read 13886 times.

I can confirm it is the EF2 units for the fatigue tests in Erding, looking closely in the picture one can see that the belly fairing metal frames are there (but just lower ones). This intrigued me but this is as it should be. Zeke, who is in the know, has described how EF1, 2 and 3 are composed and where they will go to be tested (TLS, Erding and Hamburg), it is all in post 14 in part 4  .

A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 4 (by srbmod Jul 13 2012 in Civil Aviation)

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-03-06 13:18:03 and read 13773 times.

Quote:
we know that Spirit has shipped 4 shipsets until 1 Feb this year
Quoting ferpe (Reply 247):
but does not carry any systems

Spirit had delivered 4 flying middle sections and 2 non flying to Sint Nazaire until February 1. But the fact that this fuselage section is outside (= finished) and is quite empty on the inside might indicate this is indeed the fatigue unit.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-03-06 13:25:28 and read 13737 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 248):
I can confirm it is the EF2 units for the fatigue tests in Erding, looking closely in the picture one can see that the belly fairing metal frames are there (but just lower ones). This intrigued me but this is as it should be. Zeke, who is in the know, has described how EF1, 2 and 3 are composed and where they will go to be tested (TLS, Erding and Hamburg), it is all in post 14 in part 4

My post above is a bit pointless now but I did not see you second post until now 

Can we start a new production thread? This one is quite large already..

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: abba
Posted 2013-03-06 13:37:45 and read 13662 times.

Quoting KL911 (Reply 246):
If you look at the picture at post 224 you see what I mean
Quoting ferpe (Reply 247):
Re the brown color of the lower part of the unit, this is the part of the middle section being under the wing fairing



Well - compared to the photo in post 224 the wing faring stops well short of the door while the brownish color continues well beyond the door as far as I can see. So this seems not to be a good explanation... There is a lot of colored small dots on this part. Perhaps this has to do with the testing?

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-03-06 13:46:23 and read 13781 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 249):
Spirit had delivered 4 flying middle sections and 2 non flying to Sint Nazaire until February 1

Thanks, I miss remembered what Spirit said in their call in Feb. This is quite interesting as the next delivery from Spirit is the last prototype one, they should be on a one per month rate now so it should have been delivered in February. It means this month the first serial upper mid section leaves Spirit in St Nazaire and is wheeled over to Airbus, it is the unit for Quatar.

Guys, we are in serial production   

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-03-06 13:55:29 and read 13745 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 252):
Thanks, I miss remembered what Spirit said in their call in Feb. This is quite interesting as the next delivery from Spirit is the last prototype one, they should be on a one per month rate now so it should have been delivered in February. It means this month the first serial upper mid section leaves Spirit in St Nazaire and is wheeled over to Airbus, it is the unit for Quatar.

Now the question is: when will the next prototype enter final assembly? MSN003 was 2 months behind schedule due "late breaking changes", will this also affect MSN2, 4 and 5?

Quote:
Guys, we are in serial production

On track to assemble 1 A350 each month in the second half of the year  

[Edited 2013-03-06 13:56:48]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-03-06 22:26:18 and read 12999 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 253):
Now the question is: when will the next prototype enter final assembly? MSN003 was 2 months behind schedule due "late breaking changes", will this also affect MSN2, 4 and 5?

MSN002 structure was produced before MSN003, it just takes long in preFAL as there is more to fit. The noises from A that Spirit delayed things started in Q4 2012 and the structure for MSN002 should have followed some 2 months after MSN5000 and this was finished 25 June. Spirit delivered the upper middle part 9 Jan for MSN001 last year, then followed MSN5000 and then MSN002 so 002 should have gone to Airbus in May sometime. I doubt that the changes that delayed MSN003 was implemented in MSN002 but who knows. If not 002s structure should have been ready for preFAL system fitment Sept last year. MSN001 came out of preFAL late October. So 002 went to cabin fitment late Jan or Feb. Now how long does the cabin take?

I think it was said MSN002 is the next one out and that we will see it joined late Q2, early summer, then MSN004 should follow in Q3 and MSN005 end of the year.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-03-06 22:39:30 and read 12960 times.

Re scheduling during 2013, I found this old schema on how the flight test should pan out, it should be still valid just with a re-dating of the start  :




So MSN002 should come next, not to far after MSN003. Q2 should be the ballpark if things hasn't gone astray, especially if MSN003 was delayed for changes and MSN002 not. But who knows, we can at least use this to benchmark Airbus on their old promises   

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-03-07 00:24:39 and read 12660 times.

Thank you ferpe.

Now why is there such a big gap between MSN003 and MSN004? Final assembly of those 2 should also go much faster (according the chart).

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-03-07 00:36:38 and read 12618 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 256):
Now why is there such a big gap between MSN003 and MSN004? Final assembly of those 2 should also go much faster (according the chart).

Because the structure for 4 comes after F(atigue, the order is 1, S, 2, 3, F, 4, 5 ), thus the jump but it seems a bit large as they should be close to 1 per month at that time, perhaps the preFAL is not at 1 per month yet. We need to dig    ...

[Edited 2013-03-07 00:38:01]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: Pugman211
Posted 2013-03-07 00:49:01 and read 12534 times.

I know for a fact that MSN 002 has 1 wing painted in UK, (only paint the d-nose before the slats get fitted at Bremen) so they should be ready to transport to Bremen in the coming weeks.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-03-07 00:52:05 and read 12549 times.

I downloaded the Spirit 2012 Earnings Presentation and noticed:

http://oi45.tinypic.com/sys6sy.jpg

There were 3 A350 deliveries to Airbus last year (and 0 in 2011). But during the presestation last month they said:

Quote:
I checked the Spirit Aerosystems webcast from their 2012 call today, the A350 delays came up. Spirit CEO said these were caused by "late braking changes" to the structure "not caused by Spirit". Spirit had delivered the MSN003 structure in Q4 2012 and today had delivered 4 flying middle sections and 2 non flying to Airbus St Nazaire.

They suddenly delivered 6 sections until February 12? That's a big production rate increase, almost impossible?

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-03-07 01:32:20 and read 12376 times.

Quoting Pugman211 (Reply 258):
I know for a fact that MSN 002 has 1 wing painted in UK, (only paint the d-nose before the slats get fitted at Bremen) so they should be ready to transport to Bremen in the coming weeks.

Great. We know it took about a month to outfit the wings of MSN001 in Bremen. Fuselage join-up of the A350 can start without the wings, so MSN002 might enter final assembly by the end of the month or in the beginning of next month.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-03-07 08:10:52 and read 11561 times.

This came in on Twitter:

"#Airbus #A350 first flight will be July or Aug, EADS CEO Enders tells reporters in NYC. In time for Paris? Would take a "miracle," he says."

-------------------------------

And another picture, MSN001 is still at station 18.



[Edited 2013-03-07 08:32:46]

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: EPA001
Posted 2013-03-07 10:36:50 and read 11144 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 261):
"#Airbus #A350 first flight will be July or Aug, EADS CEO Enders tells reporters in NYC. In time for Paris? Would take a "miracle," he says."

Thanks for the update. And since miracles are usually very rare, I do not think we are going to see the A350-XWB at the Paris Air Show. But as long as the program keeps on course, it is all good.  .

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: EPA001
Posted 2013-03-07 10:39:11 and read 11149 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 255):
Re scheduling during 2013, I found this old schema on how the flight test should pan out, it should be still valid just with a re-dating of the start  :

But may there have been any changes due to the circumstances of the current program situation? In other words, can you confirm this? Thanks in advance ferpe!  .

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: N14AZ
Posted 2013-03-07 13:12:50 and read 10748 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 252):
Guys, we are in serial production

Well, well, well. We have seen this before. It remains to be seen how many design changes they will identify during the next phases and if these early birds will have to be modified at a later stage.

Once again thank you for the live coverage of the A 350 production.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: moo
Posted 2013-03-07 13:41:43 and read 10666 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 259):
They suddenly delivered 6 sections until February 12? That's a big production rate increase, almost impossible?

Deliveries are not production rates - we don't know how long those additional three sections were completed awaiting rework or sign off before they could be released to Airbus as delivered.

A delivery surge has no relation to production rates.

Topic: RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7
Username: iowaman
Posted 2013-03-07 14:55:56 and read 10492 times.

Due to the length of this thread, I am opening up part 8 here:

A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8 (by iowaman Mar 7 2013 in Civil Aviation)

This thread will be archived for future reference.

[Edited 2013-03-07 14:57:12]


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/