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Topic: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: Moderators
Posted 2013-02-08 01:33:21 and read 30728 times.

Dear All,

in order to consolidate the AA/US merger threads (and after input from users, which we highly appreciate) the moderators decided to start separate threads each discussing one aspect of the AA/US merger and its impact to both the industry and the two airlines involved.

Please continue discussing this hot news in their individual official threads:

AA/US Merger Impact: Fleet
AA/US Merger Impact: Hubs
AA/US Merger Impact: Employees
AA/US Merger Impact: HQ
AA/US Merger Impact: Livery (THIS THREAD ONLY)
AA/US Merger Impact: Unions
AA/US Merger Impact: Routes
AA/US Merger Impact: Inflight Service

Enjoy & have a nice weekend!

The Airliners.net Moderator crew

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: NZ107
Posted 2013-02-08 03:23:27 and read 30572 times.

Well AA wouldn't spend millions on creating a new livery, just to announce a week or so later that this US deal was going to affect the livery.. In some ways, I don't even know why it should be something to discuss. I would expect US to have no say in the livery of the merged airline and all their planes painted with the "Cubana"-esque tail.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: thorntot
Posted 2013-02-08 03:59:38 and read 30363 times.

I would suspect a new brand identity will be developed to reflect the combined carrier. This team would most likely be a combination of sub-AA and sub-US marketing managers. It will also give sub-AA the opportunity to "save-face" in burying the mis-guided recent livery change. "American Airways" will retain important aspects of both carriers' brand while presenting a new image to the public.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: 0NEWAIR0
Posted 2013-02-08 04:35:53 and read 30178 times.

This is just my opinion of course, I have no direct knowledge, but wouldn't one tend to think that US Airways has already had some input on the livery and branding of American Airlines if the merger is indeed as close as it is suspected to be?

It makes absolutely no since to spend millions on rebranding and then do it all over again less than a month after the rebranding had begun.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: chepos
Posted 2013-02-08 04:53:21 and read 30041 times.

Not to mention it would be a branding/marketing nightmare, the cubana/greyhound inspired livery is here to stay (at least for a couple of years). Maybe it will be as short lived as the Deltaflot colors.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2013-02-08 04:55:41 and read 30058 times.

It would be astonishing if the new American branding was not designed for the new merged carrier. There's a lot goes on behind the scenes, a merger is a component part of the new American, it would be naive to believe that much of what American has been planning for the relaunch has been done in utter isolation from a future with US.

Changing the name to"American Airways" would have no effect on the new branding really.
"We'll take half of our name, half of your name." = American + Airways  

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: 777way
Posted 2013-02-08 04:59:29 and read 29989 times.

I prefer US Airways title font, hope they can adopt that, helvetica does not suit this new livery and American Airways sounds nice too.

[Edited 2013-02-08 05:01:15]

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: thorntot
Posted 2013-02-08 05:03:19 and read 29981 times.

One livery activity I'd like to see carried over to the combined carrier....retro jets!

Can't wait to see a A319 painted in retro AirCal, Reno, and TWA liveries just like the Allegheny, Piedmont, America West, and PSA jets at sub-US.

Wonder if they will use the double-globe, red-block, or final livery for the TWA retro-jet.

Wow, we're getting ahead of ourselves.  

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-02-08 05:11:05 and read 29872 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 5):
it would be naive to believe that much of what American has been planning for the relaunch has been done in utter isolation from a future with US.

Which could account for the vague timeline for updating non-hub airports with the new branding. The initial press releases talked about years to completely rebrand outstations, which some could take to mean that the door is open to change the branding yet again.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: 0NEWAIR0
Posted 2013-02-08 05:42:39 and read 29753 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 8):
which some could take to mean that the door is open to change the branding yet again.

..."Introducing the new new American"...      

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: A388
Posted 2013-02-08 05:52:47 and read 29594 times.

Quoting thorntot (Reply 2):
I would suspect a new brand identity will be developed to reflect the combined carrier.

The new AA tail logo in fact does have something of US Airways in it so the new livery definately is designed with the merger in mind.

A388

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: NASCARAirforce
Posted 2013-02-08 05:54:12 and read 29575 times.

Quoting thorntot (Reply 7):
Wonder if they will use the double-globe, red-block, or final livery for the TWA retro-jet.

Maybe they would do both - they did the 2 different America West colors on the A319

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: iFlyLOTs
Posted 2013-02-08 05:54:51 and read 29571 times.

Quoting thorntot (Reply 7):
One livery activity I'd like to see carried over to the combined carrier....retro jets!

I would love to see those stick around as well, I wanna see like a TWA one and a Trans Carribean and AirCal and Reno Air. That'd be awesome.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: Polot
Posted 2013-02-08 06:15:21 and read 29456 times.

With all the conflict with TWA employees AA has had in its past I would not expect to see a TWA retrojet anytime soon.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-02-08 06:54:15 and read 29181 times.

I am a firm believer that the AA livery was created with input from US. The introduction of the new livery this close to the expected announcement of the merger can't just be a coincidence.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: Burkhard
Posted 2013-02-08 07:00:24 and read 29128 times.

I hope that the name American together with the nice livery of US are kept - the Cubana/Austrian tail is a commercial suicide.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: piedmont727
Posted 2013-02-08 07:33:33 and read 28961 times.

i think that the new livery was a well planned design by both US and manley american in secret preperaition for a merger and to all hating on the anerican livery i saw it in person and it surprisingly to me looks great (i didnt like it tell i saw it in person)

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: BlatantEcho
Posted 2013-02-08 07:37:36 and read 28923 times.

Hopefully this is a graceful way for AA to develop a livery that isn't so dreadful.

It's a great way for them to tacitly acknowledge they screwed up and redo what they just unveiled.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: ckfred
Posted 2013-02-08 07:46:43 and read 28857 times.

Quoting chepos (Reply 4):
Maybe it will be as short lived as the Deltaflot colors.

The correct term is wavy gravy.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 5):
It would be astonishing if the new American branding was not designed for the new merged carrier. There's a lot goes on behind the scenes, a merger is a component part of the new American, it would be naive to believe that much of what American has been planning for the relaunch has been done in utter isolation from a future with US.

Changing the name to"American Airways" would have no effect on the new branding really.
"We'll take half of our name, half of your name." = American + Airways

First, AA started working on rebranding before the Chapter 11 filing. Media accounts say the rebranding discussions started, when AA put in the combined Airbus/Boeing narrowbody order. I wouldn't be surprised, if some memos about the possiblilty of a rebranding started to circulate, when AA finalized the first order for 773s in early 2011.

Second, I don't see American Airlines becoming American Airways. Remember that a lot of people, including myself, say US Air. My father-in-law calls it Useless Air. The name change to US Airways was something that Steve Wolf pushed, when the dark blue livery was introduced. He thought Air was a name for smaller, regional carriers, like Air Cal and Hughes Air West.

If you think about mergers of the past, one name disappears, including Pan Am/National, TWA/Republic, Delta/Western, Delta/Northwest, and American/TWA. Nothing survived from the acquired carrier, when US Air bought Piedmont and PSA. About the only instance of keeping something around from both carriers is the CO/UA merger, with the United name on the Continental livery.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: Ryefly
Posted 2013-02-08 08:03:28 and read 28760 times.

I think it would be nice if the US fleet was updated with the American titles for the time being, as seen in the middle, and the American fleet painted as seen as the plane in the foreground.

http://www.cardatabase.net/modifieda...earch/photo_search.php?id=00015619

Once as US plane is due to be painted it would be updated to the silver scheme.

I would thonk this route would be a lot cheeper then to repaint both entire fleets including express, eagle, airport signage and everything else with the AA or US flag.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: SCAT15F
Posted 2013-02-08 08:08:10 and read 28685 times.

Dear God I hope they come up with a new combined livery. AA's new livery is by far the worst I have ever seen.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: LHCVG
Posted 2013-02-08 08:08:47 and read 28683 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 5):
It would be astonishing if the new American branding was not designed for the new merged carrier. There's a lot goes on behind the scenes, a merger is a component part of the new American, it would be naive to believe that much of what American has been planning for the relaunch has been done in utter isolation from a future with US.

I agree that this is highly plausible, but I would just add that we shouldn't read too much into that. There is probably more general talk and sharing than there is specifics of every little detail. Now that said, if my reading of the tea leaves is correct, the AA branding is sure to stay and DP can't do anything about that. So, I'd bet the shared carrier livery will indeed be highly similar to the freshly revealed AA brand. I'd bet the biggest modification you might see if something like "Airways" in stead of "Airlines" if they go that as a minor bone to US, but that obviously won't be too big a re-branding problem in the scheme of the liveries and etc.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: dtw757
Posted 2013-02-08 08:44:45 and read 28516 times.

Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 21):
Dear God I hope they come up with a new combined livery. AA's new livery is by far the worst I have ever seen.

That's not going to happen. Millions have been spent coming up with the new American branding and millions more needs to be spent rebranding all of the cities. They aren't going to start from scratch now. Like it or not, the new American is here. If there is a merger, it will be American Airlines with the new branding.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-02-08 09:15:43 and read 28332 times.

Like I said in the other thread, I hope the livery is tweaked a little bit, only because AA degraded the American flag by taking the stars off of it. I honestly feel that it isn't right of them to do that escpecially when they are AMERICAN Airlines.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: SXDFC
Posted 2013-02-08 09:23:20 and read 28767 times.

What will the fate be of the US Airways retrojets, sport themed planes, and of course AA's retrojet? I would imagine the cancer awareness plane(s) would stick around for a bit..

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: aajfksjubklyn
Posted 2013-02-08 09:25:27 and read 29333 times.

I did read that Horton called Parker the night before the logo was reavealed. Parker stated he was happy.
I dont suspect any USAIR references.....I can almost guarantee this.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: PHLBOS
Posted 2013-02-08 09:28:14 and read 29444 times.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 24):
only because AA degraded the American flag by taking the stars off of it. I honestly feel that it isn't right of them to do that escpecially when they are AMERICAN Airlines.

And how is that different from US (an abbreviation for the United States) Airways showing a generic pattern (w/no stars) of the American flag?

Quoting Ryefly (Reply 20):
I think it would be nice if the US fleet was updated with the American titles for the time being, as seen in the middle, and the American fleet painted as seen as the plane in the foreground.

I agree w/you regarding the first two 'interim' schemes. However, the foreground scheme should have an eagle on the tail.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: ukoverlander
Posted 2013-02-08 09:51:51 and read 29466 times.

I doubt it will happen but it would be nice if at least they redesigned the tail logo for the new combined airline. The AA rebrand is one of the most hideous and gaudy abberations to be wheeled out in a long time, lacking in both taste and class. Very sad after the old AA livery which is an absolute classic.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: deltaflyertoo
Posted 2013-02-08 09:59:28 and read 29463 times.

Quoting aajfksjubklyn (Reply 27):
I did read that Horton called Parker the night before the logo was reavealed. Parker stated he was happy.
I dont suspect any USAIR references.....I can almost guarantee this.

Too add, Parker has also been vocal in the media that he was asked or given no opportunity for any imput on the new AA rebrand. To me that was interesting. It also was hint then that merger was on its way. That said supposedly Parker is going to be the head of new combined airline and w/ that statement out there I'd guess there is 50/50 chance of yet another rebrand (one can hope).

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: crAAzy
Posted 2013-02-08 10:55:10 and read 29116 times.

Given the raises and additional payouts that the employee groups are going to be getting if a merger goes through I don't see how it would make any sense for the new management group to spend additional money on another new livery so soon.

If the new management group decides to spend more money on this again I'd be a little worried - hopefully the Board would decide against this move.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: CoachClass
Posted 2013-02-08 11:10:48 and read 29002 times.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 24):
because AA degraded the American flag by taking the stars off of it.

Not only that, but there are no blue stripes on the flag; only a blue background for the white stars.

I e-mailed to AA my dislike of the new livery (the tail in particular) and received a form letter e-mail reply rather quickly, defending it. I think it's clear that a lot of people contacted AA and told them of their dislike of the new livery. Now, rather than losing face, maybe as has been said by others, they'll take the opportunity of the merger to say that they're going to tweak the livery to reflect the merger.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: ckfred
Posted 2013-02-08 11:13:51 and read 29011 times.

Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 21):
Dear God I hope they come up with a new combined livery. AA's new livery is by far the worst I have ever seen.

Worse than Hughes Air West? That livery was solid lemon yellow with purple trim. The font was garish late 60s/early 70s. When the planes were dirty, they were even uglier.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2013-02-08 11:14:40 and read 29073 times.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 19):

Quoting chepos (Reply 4):
Maybe it will be as short lived as the Deltaflot colors.

The correct term is wavy gravy.

The official DL term was "Colors in Motion".

Quoting aajfksjubklyn (Reply 27):

I did read that Horton called Parker the night before the logo was reavealed. Parker stated he was happy.

Which makes me think that if Parker likes it and is in control of the new AA/US, the new AA identity will be the surviving one. Even if you hate the new AA livery, the ball's already in motion - why change it for the second time in less than six months?

As for AA's quote that it would take years to rebrand outstations: I think they may have had a merger in mind for the timeframe. First, they'll rebrand the hubs, then the larger outstations with both AA and US, then the US/US Express-only and smaller US/AA outstations. The smaller AA/Eagle-only outstations will probably be rebranded last. For example, Eagle-only FWA got a new ticket counter backdrop two days before AA filed for Chapter 11. And last I checked, UA still hasn't changed their FWA backdrop from the tulip to the globe.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: Cargolex
Posted 2013-02-08 11:25:30 and read 28852 times.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 34):
Even if you hate the new AA livery, the ball's already in motion - why change it for the second time in less than six months?

Better to look silly for six weeks than for years on end. The new livery is a crime against graphic design, and a spectacular waste of resources on the part of existing AA management. It deserves the glue factory, and better to rectify the mistake than to persist with it to try and save face. What good is saving face if you're dressed in a clown suit?

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: deltaflyertoo
Posted 2013-02-08 12:33:45 and read 27597 times.

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 35):

Better to look silly for six weeks than for years on end

Agreed. Also only a few planes have been painted. And finally, remember the general public really doesn't care (like we do here)...so why not do it for aesthetic detail sake and peeps will forget this one within a week.

Also to those who cite costs, I think those include the roll of airport signage system wide (which really hasn't started so again there's time). To get a new livery and color scheme alone would be less than seven figures-I think they could afford that.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: etops1
Posted 2013-02-08 13:24:06 and read 26824 times.

Quoting aajfksjubklyn (Reply 27):

Parker never said he was " happy " . I for one think us management is not too fond f the scheme . Wether it will change remains to be seen .

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: AA94
Posted 2013-02-08 14:08:03 and read 26271 times.

Quoting etops1 (Reply 37):
Parker never said he was " happy " . I for one think us management is not too fond f the scheme . Wether it will change remains to be seen .

It was officially praised by US Airways.

Quote:
US Airways praised the "compelling result" of the redesign, as spokesman Ed Stewart put it.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: AA94
Posted 2013-02-08 14:16:00 and read 26417 times.

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 1):
Well AA wouldn't spend millions on creating a new livery, just to announce a week or so later that this US deal was going to affect the livery.. In some ways, I don't even know why it should be something to discuss. I would expect US to have no say in the livery of the merged airline and all their planes painted with the "Cubana"-esque tail.

  

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 1):
I would suspect a new brand identity will be developed to reflect the combined carrier. This team would most likely be a combination of sub-AA and sub-US marketing managers. It will also give sub-AA the opportunity to "save-face" in burying the mis-guided recent livery change. "American Airways" will retain important aspects of both carriers' brand while presenting a new image to the public.

Official comments from AA, US, and Futurebrand dispute this. Take those however you want. The AA rebranding started before US was even a blip on the radar, and I believe that US had absolutely no say in AA's new branding. They're competitors. Like much of the media, you are assuming that US/AA are merging, which I believe is the wrong assumption.

Also, "American Airways" sounds terrible.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 19):
First, AA started working on rebranding before the Chapter 11 filing. Media accounts say the rebranding discussions started, when AA put in the combined Airbus/Boeing narrowbody order. I wouldn't be surprised, if some memos about the possiblilty of a rebranding started to circulate, when AA finalized the first order for 773s in early 2011.

Second, I don't see American Airlines becoming American Airways. Remember that a lot of people, including myself, say US Air. My father-in-law calls it Useless Air. The name change to US Airways was something that Steve Wolf pushed, when the dark blue livery was introduced. He thought Air was a name for smaller, regional carriers, like Air Cal and Hughes Air West.

If you think about mergers of the past, one name disappears, including Pan Am/National, TWA/Republic, Delta/Western, Delta/Northwest, and American/TWA. Nothing survived from the acquired carrier, when US Air bought Piedmont and PSA. About the only instance of keeping something around from both carriers is the CO/UA merger, with the United name on the Continental livery.

  

Quoting Ryefly (Reply 20):
I think it would be nice if the US fleet was updated with the American titles for the time being, as seen in the middle, and the American fleet painted as seen as the plane in the foreground.

Yuck.

Quoting dtw757 (Reply 23):
That's not going to happen. Millions have been spent coming up with the new American branding and millions more needs to be spent rebranding all of the cities. They aren't going to start from scratch now. Like it or not, the new American is here. If there is a merger, it will be American Airlines with the new branding.

  

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: Independence76
Posted 2013-02-08 14:21:05 and read 26064 times.

Quoting aajfksjubklyn (Reply 27):
I did read that Horton called Parker the night before the logo was reavealed. Parker stated he was happy.

That is false. The reveal event was purely an AMR/AA production in which Horton stated twice that day that "US Airways had absolutely no part in the rebranding process."

So far, extremely few paperwork has been produced regarding logo and livery licensing agreements. AMR is slow to get this thing outside of the company and the odds of Parker being in-the-know before the reveal are virtually zero.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: YYZbound
Posted 2013-02-08 14:23:06 and read 25997 times.

Some of the responses on here have a wee too much estrogen....but I digress...

Complete side note...does anybody remember the very short-lived paint scheme USAir was going to adopt when they bought PSA, before the Piedmont merger? I believe there were two planes painted...a BAE-146 and a 737.

It consisted of a lot of busy stripes on the tail..varying shades of red...offset by grey and silver..

The new AA tail reminds me of it a bit

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: dsuairptman
Posted 2013-02-08 14:28:35 and read 25931 times.

Quoting thorntot (Reply 7):
One livery activity I'd like to see carried over to the combined carrier....retro jets!

Can't wait to see a A319 painted in retro AirCal, Reno, and TWA liveries just like the Allegheny, Piedmont, America West, and PSA jets at sub-US.

Wonder if they will use the double-globe, red-block, or final livery for the TWA retro-jet.



Would be great to see the QQ mountain tail fly again! As for TWA I think they would have enough 319s to paint retro colors of all three, just like they have two 319s wearing both HP schemes.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: Polot
Posted 2013-02-08 14:41:21 and read 26058 times.

Quoting YYZbound (Reply 41):
Complete side note...does anybody remember the very short-lived paint scheme USAir was going to adopt when they bought PSA, before the Piedmont merger? I believe there were two planes painted...a BAE-146 and a 737.

I assume you are talking about this livery:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Hans-Werner Klein



I have never read anything suggesting that that livery was anything more than experimental. They certainly didn't have a big public reveal of it. Experimental liveries were also a lot more common in the past. NW, AF, Pan Am, LH and others also had experimental liveries or two.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: srbmod
Posted 2013-02-08 15:30:45 and read 25334 times.

Quoting chepos (Reply 4):
Maybe it will be as short lived as the Deltaflot colors.

It still lasted longer than the livery it replaced......

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 5):
Changing the name to"American Airways" would have no effect on the new branding really.

American Airways is actually the original name for American Airlines. The name change to American Airlines was the result of the Air Mail Act of 1934 which barred any airline that had previously held air mail contracts (There was a big scandal in which air mail routes were given to airlines in a manner that was secretive and against government policy.) from obtaining any of the new air mail contracts. The solution that was a simple name change. For example, American Airways became American Airlines, United Air Lines became United Airlines, Northwest Airways became Northwest Airlines.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © RAScholefield Collection
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ralph M. Pettersen




What would be a nice livery would be to take the US Airways livery and replace the flag motif on the tail with the AA eagle logo.

[Edited 2013-02-08 15:31:31]

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: CF-CPI
Posted 2013-02-08 15:42:47 and read 25038 times.

Quoting Polot (Reply 43):
I have never read anything suggesting that that livery was anything more than experimental.

Right. The employee reaction was quite negative, both to this design, and to one applied to a DC-9, which had a tail much like a 'mohawk' haircut (it is almost impossible to find pics of that one). I think the idea was to create a 'California' theme, where US was expanding. I'm told that the designs were done at a very low cost (possibly free) by the design firm .... in hopes of getting the business. In the end, they went for the red/white/blue on polished aluminum.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: planeguy727
Posted 2013-02-08 15:55:40 and read 24907 times.

A bunch of folks have suggested that AA be renamed American Airways if there is a merger. I wonder if that is possible based on the Air Mail Act of June 12, 1934 (known as the Black-McKellar bill). In response to the Postermaster Brown "spoils" conference the three airlines that had dominated the air mail industry were forbidden from having future airmail contracts. The three airlines (NW, TW, AA) responded by changing names.

American Airways, based on that legislation, was forbidden from having government contracts to transport mail and became American Airlines (and got new air mail contracts). It might be possible that based on the old legislation that AA can't return to the old name.

Here's a summary of the issue from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Mail_Scandal

BTW - this also contributed to the split of United from Boeing

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-02-08 16:12:22 and read 24578 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 8):

I hope the tail is changed a bit. No matter what anybody says, I am astonished that AMERICAN Airlines butchered the American flag by taking the stars off of it. The stars are the most important part of the flag, and they removed them to put seemingly misplaced stripes.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: Polot
Posted 2013-02-08 16:17:48 and read 24505 times.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 47):
I hope the tail is changed a bit. No matter what anybody says, I am astonished that AMERICAN Airlines butchered the American flag by taking the stars off of it. The stars are the most important part of the flag, and they removed them to put seemingly misplaced stripes.

You mean like how US doesn't include the stars (which makes this entire discussion hilarious, as nobody seems to have a problem with their logo)? Or how ATA didn't include stars in their logo clearly inspired by the American flag?

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: strfyr51
Posted 2013-02-08 16:18:02 and read 24538 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 5):

The new branding is directly tied to the fact that the AIRBUS airplanes are not built with Matched ALCLAD aluminum skins which makes the current polished American airlines Livery impossible. Not to mention they ordered 200 A320 NEO ACFT? They Had to come up with a new Livery because they sure as Heck can't fly them UN-painted !!

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: infinit
Posted 2013-02-08 16:26:49 and read 24392 times.

I do hope its something that justifies the notion of being a truly-American icon.

Even as a non-American I'd love to see something with a hint of patriotism like something inspired by the stars and stripes. That's what one would expect from AA or US

I sure hope they don't use the recently published new AA livery which was just aweful

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-02-08 16:35:10 and read 24319 times.

Quoting Polot (Reply 48):

Yes, but we're talking about American Airlines. The airline that carries the "official" name of the country shouldn't butcher the flag if they have it on their planes. Plus, I can except if they did something like US Airways did, but at least US Airways kept it uniform. AA could have put stars on the flag, but they substituted stripes, for some reason.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: Polot
Posted 2013-02-08 17:09:08 and read 23981 times.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 50):
Yes, but we're talking about American Airlines. The airline that carries the "official" name of the country shouldn't butcher the flag if they have it on their planes.

The "official" name of the country is the United States of America. US Airways is just as close to the official name as American.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 50):
Plus, I can except if they did something like US Airways did, but at least US Airways kept it uniform.

What is that even suppose to mean?

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-08 17:11:30 and read 24099 times.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 48):
The new branding is directly tied to the fact that the AIRBUS airplanes are not built with Matched ALCLAD aluminum skins which makes the current polished American airlines livery impossible.

Reminds me of AA's BAC-111s which had a section of fuselage skin over the wings that must have used a different alloy and even when polished never matched the rest of the fuselage. It's very obvious in most photos.


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Photo © Bob Garrard
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Photo © Bob Garrard
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Photo © Alain Picollet

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: captainstefan
Posted 2013-02-08 17:24:23 and read 23767 times.

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 24):
No stars... And less stripes

The new AA tail only has 6 red stripes, whereas the actual flag has 7. This, to me, is even worse, because it's like they forgot to add the last stripe (and it even looks like there's plenty of room to add it!) Is there some obscure law or code that prohibits companies from using the complete, 50 start/13 stripe version of the US flag in a logo or branding like this?

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: iFlyLOTs
Posted 2013-02-08 17:33:11 and read 23582 times.

Quoting captainstefan (Reply 53):
The new AA tail only has 6 red stripes, whereas the actual flag has 7. This, to me, is even worse, because it's like they forgot to add the last stripe (and it even looks like there's plenty of room to add it!)

I somewhat agree, but as mesaflyguy was trying to point out, and I was disputing was that US Airways has actually been "defacing" the American flag for quite some time now. And if you look closely, at least on the 737 that they painted already it almost looks like they thought about it, and then painted it over and looks discolored.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-02-08 18:40:00 and read 23012 times.

Quoting Polot (Reply 51):

I should have worded that differently, by uniform, I meant that US Airways kept it looking like the flag, amd they kept it simple. The AA tail has too many color variations and overall just too much going on in it. Yes, US did change some details of the flag, but they left it recognizable. The AA tail IMHO looks like a livery created for a virtual airline on one of the ameteur design programs. The tail, again just IMHO, reminds me more if a creative logo with the colors of the American flag. It just doesn't do the flag the right justice.

Once again, this is all solely my opinion. You do not have to agree with me and I am not trying to force you to.

[Edited 2013-02-08 18:41:08]

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: idlewildchild
Posted 2013-02-08 18:47:08 and read 23013 times.

The AA new livery will hold and quickly be put on the US aircraft, and rightly so. If they're going to be 70% of the company, then so be it. Let's hope they quickly create a consistent brand and that the customer service for both entities quickly escalates...with AA returning to caring about customers and their staff!

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: piedmont727
Posted 2013-02-08 20:00:49 and read 22526 times.

i saw a interesting comment on a different post that got me thinking has the merger been in a secret planning well at-least starting with the livery for the merger i mean i heard Horton say in a video if thy merge the new AA livery would stay and if u look at the tail the stripes design are actually similar in style if u exclude the blue on the american , if im far off sorry just something i noticed Also buy US stripes i mean the faded stripes in there

us airways tail by me
aa new livery please dont steal

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: ABQopsHP
Posted 2013-02-08 20:15:52 and read 22251 times.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 55):
US Airways kept it looking like the flag, amd they kept it simple. The AA tail has too many color variations and overall just too much going on in it. Yes, US did change some details of the flag, but they left it recognizable. The AA tail IMHO looks like a livery created for a virtual airline on one of the ameteur design programs. The tail, again just IMHO, reminds me more if a creative logo with the colors of the American flag. It just doesn't do the flag the right justice.

I agree. The AA tail is too busy. Something bold, sure. But this just doesnt do the trick. IMO.

JD CRP

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2013-02-08 23:48:53 and read 21003 times.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 32):
Worse than Hughes Air West? That livery was solid lemon yellow with purple trim. The font was garish late 60s/early 70s. When the planes were dirty, they were even uglier.

Don't go talkin' smack about the top banana in the west!

-Dave

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: 757gb
Posted 2013-02-09 04:24:56 and read 20482 times.

Quoting A388 (Reply 10):
The new AA tail logo in fact does have something of US Airways in it so the new livery definately is designed with the merger in mind.

  

Agreed. Like it or not, that's one of the first things that came to mind when I saw that tail.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-02-09 05:12:37 and read 20331 times.

Quoting piedmont727 (Reply 57):
i saw a interesting comment on a different post that got me thinking has the merger been in a secret planning well at-least starting with the livery for the merger i mean i heard Horton say in a video if thy merge the new AA livery would stay and if u look at the tail the stripes design are actually similar in style if u exclude the blue on the american , if im far off sorry just something i noticed Also buy US stripes i mean the faded stripes in there

Actualy the stripes come from their heritqge from America West

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Ameri...d=c22dd6dcc2d38e8c03591a9734f3d9c0

As you can see the shadowing, done to the lines; what US did was smooth them out.

I think that if you remember when AC tried to see if their was a way of saving money by only polishing their aircraft with the new tail was as ugly an aircraft can get, IMO.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: hOmsar
Posted 2013-02-09 09:07:17 and read 19979 times.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 55):
The AA tail has too many color variations and overall just too much going on in it. Yes, US did change some details of the flag, but they left it recognizable. The AA tail IMHO looks like a livery created for a virtual airline on one of the ameteur design programs. The tail, again just IMHO, reminds me more if a creative logo with the colors of the American flag. It just doesn't do the flag the right justice.

The AA tail looks to me like a Powerpoint background from the 90s, with the different shades of blue that blend from one to the other (and same with the red).

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: lostsound
Posted 2013-02-09 10:11:55 and read 19813 times.

The new branding is brilliant in my opinion. And it most definitely is staying so settle down and get used to it people.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: flyorski
Posted 2013-02-09 10:21:31 and read 19791 times.

So.. This may be a bit off topic. And I know I have been under a rock.. But do we actually have merger confirmation with US/AA?

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: sofianec
Posted 2013-02-09 10:24:32 and read 19832 times.

The new American livery is great. I love the tail. Love the font. US Airways is too corporate looking, too bland, much like the grey United. AA did a great job conceiving this livery. We should applaud them.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: iFlyLOTs
Posted 2013-02-09 10:55:10 and read 19769 times.

Quoting flyorski (Reply 64):
So.. This may be a bit off topic. And I know I have been under a rock.. But do we actually have merger confirmation with US/AA?

Officially, no. But news reports say that it is getting closer and closer to a reality.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: CF-CPI
Posted 2013-02-09 13:50:07 and read 19503 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 61):
I think that if you remember when AC tried to see if their was a way of saving money by only polishing their aircraft with the new tail was as ugly an aircraft can get, IMO.

The first time I saw it, I thought "when are they going to finish painting it?" Thank god it only got applied to one 767. At least they could polish the aluminum - can you imagine how it would have looked on an Airbus?
 Wow!

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2013-02-09 14:02:39 and read 19467 times.

I do not know about the merger, but I like the new design. One cannot miss it from any distance. It is noticed, and is that not the idea?

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: questions
Posted 2013-02-14 08:02:01 and read 18191 times.

Hey Doug Parker... congratulations!... now, PLEASE change the tail !!

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: cageyjames
Posted 2013-02-14 08:05:11 and read 18167 times.

So I'm hoping I'll see the PSA A319 in SAN and the Air Cal A319 in SNA.

If only....

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: AirCalSNA
Posted 2013-02-14 10:36:51 and read 17700 times.

Quoting cageyjames (Reply 70):
So I'm hoping I'll see the PSA A319 in SAN and the Air Cal A319 in SNA.

If only....

Wow ... that would be great! I take it there isn't an AirCal A319 at the moment, but you're hoping there will be?

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: iFlyLOTs
Posted 2013-02-14 10:45:00 and read 17675 times.

Quoting AirCalSNA (Reply 71):
I take it there isn't an AirCal A319 at the moment, but you're hoping there will be?

Exactly.

Maybe we'll even have a RenoAir A319, and a TransCaribbean A321, that would be cool IMO.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: Aloha717200
Posted 2013-02-14 11:02:46 and read 17634 times.

Well, the US livery with American titles certainly looks better than the American livery by itself. It's a shame that's not what's going to be kept.

But my main concern is for the retrojets. It's really nice have Piedmont and PSA planes flying around, and I sincerely doubt they'll be kept by the combined carrier. I hope I am wrong though. I hope Doug will allow them to continue to exist, alongside any AA retrojets that might be kept. Perhaps a petition could be in order?

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: atcanobbio
Posted 2013-02-14 11:21:59 and read 17808 times.

AA should have waited for the livery re-do and done something like this as their AA+US livery.

http://www.cardatabase.net/modifiedairlinerphotos/photos/big/00015470.jpg

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: deltaflyertoo
Posted 2013-02-14 12:29:57 and read 17463 times.

Unfortunately its just been announced they are KEEPING the new livery.

Although these days airline CEOs say they are keeping a lot (aircraft orders, hubs, routes, etc) and never do, so perhaps to Parker its just a minor deet in the whole scale of things that he doesn't want to deal with today and its easier to just say that to the press then get news going on a rebranding aspect instead.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: Polot
Posted 2013-02-14 13:35:46 and read 17234 times.

Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 75):
Although these days airline CEOs say they are keeping a lot (aircraft orders, hubs, routes, etc) and never do, so perhaps to Parker its just a minor deet in the whole scale of things that he doesn't want to deal with today and its easier to just say that to the press then get news going on a rebranding aspect instead.

Or you know, they are going to keep it. CEOs say they are going to keep aircraft orders, hubs, routes, etc for political support from the communities and to show they are going to keep jobs (remember AA/US still has to be approved by the government). There is no value in announcing you are keeping the branding now they changing your mind a year later because you secretly always hated it and wanted to change it. If Parker hated it it would be changed before public announcement of the merger so that a uniformed new brand could be presented and AA and US could start to convert towards it over the course of the next few months.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2013-02-14 15:39:19 and read 17061 times.

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 73):
I hope I am wrong though. I hope Doug will allow them to continue to exist, alongside any AA retrojets that might be kept. Perhaps a petition could be in order?

I could see these retrojets:

PMUS
-US current livery with American fuselage titles (we may be seeing a lot of these for a short while, but this would be a permanent addition to the fleet)
-US 1989 livery with American fuselage titles (mica paint instead of polished aluminum like on original)
-Allegheny with American fuselage titles
-Piedmont with American fuselage titles
-HP original livery with American fuselage titles
-HP "Jurassic Park" livery with American fuselage titles
-PSA with American fuselage titles

PMAA
-1964-68 Astrojet livery (already in fleet)
-1968-2013 Massimo Vignelli livery (preferably on a plane that can be polished, though mica paint would also work)
-TWA 1960s double-globe with American fuselage titles
-TWA final livery with American fuselage titles
-Trans Caribbean with American fuselage titles
-AirCal rainbow with American fuselage titles
-Reno Air with American fuselage titles

Total of 7 heritage liveries each for US and AA; 14 total

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: Polot
Posted 2013-02-14 16:02:46 and read 17115 times.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 77):
-TWA 1960s double-globe with American fuselage titles
-TWA final livery with American fuselage titles

As I have mentioned in other threads, I would be surprised to see any TWA retrojets anytime soon considering how their employees got screwed (not completely AA's fault, the unions share a lot of the blame, but still).

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 77):
-Trans Caribbean with American fuselage titles

Trans Caribbean was such a small carrier absorbed so long ago I doubt we would see a retrojet for them (you never saw Doug Parker trot out a Mohawk retrojet).

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2013-02-14 16:20:14 and read 17039 times.

Quoting Polot (Reply 78):
Trans Caribbean was such a small carrier absorbed so long ago I doubt we would see a retrojet for them (you never saw Doug Parker trot out a Mohawk retrojet).

True, but that single small purchase was the start of AA's dominance in the Caribbean.

Quoting Polot (Reply 78):
As I have mentioned in other threads, I would be surprised to see any TWA retrojets anytime soon considering how their employees got screwed (not completely AA's fault, the unions share a lot of the blame, but still).

Every now and then, you'll run into TWA licensed merchandise like T-shirts and coffee mugs at places like Target. The licensor for these TWA logo items is none other than AMR, and many of these items also have (had?) the AA with scissor eagle design in the copyright area (i.e. T-shirt tag).

[Edited 2013-02-14 16:22:29]

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: IFlyTWA
Posted 2013-02-14 16:51:29 and read 16903 times.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 77):
-TWA 1960s double-globe with American fuselage titles
-TWA final livery with American fuselage titles

I really would like to see this happen. I know plenty of ex-TWA employees at AA would like to see this as well.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: cageyjames
Posted 2013-02-15 07:42:02 and read 16489 times.

Quoting Polot (Reply 77):
As I have mentioned in other threads, I would be surprised to see any TWA retrojets anytime soon considering how their employees got screwed (not completely AA's fault, the unions share a lot of the blame, but still).

I think when US released the retrojets for old USAir airlines, it did a lot for morale. Even if there are wounds, the fact TW is part of the AA "family" is a huge legacy. I'm not sure we'll see Reno Air or other type livery, but TWA would clearly be added. AirCal might be added if just to show the commitment to LAX region. I'm not sure that is needed with the others.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-02-15 10:31:32 and read 16390 times.

Quoting atcanobbio (Reply 73):
AA should have waited for the livery re-do and done something like this as their AA+US livery.

OMG!! That is ugly. What are you working in the US post office?

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: questions
Posted 2013-02-15 19:52:13 and read 16117 times.

I think there is still time to change the livery for the merged entity... AND... I think this one by Anthony Harding is the best. I wonder how much they would have to pay him for it.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: 777way
Posted 2013-02-16 05:33:33 and read 15564 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 81):

Why? that livery is spot on for a merged look.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: RICARIZA
Posted 2013-02-16 06:20:01 and read 15581 times.

Quoting atcanobbio (Reply 73):

Nice.. I would have loved these  

But, I have t admit that even though the tail is not my favorite by far, it has been growing up on me...

By the way, have you guys seen this video? http://youtu.be/nJPTtIOAls4

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: etops1
Posted 2013-02-16 14:38:08 and read 15170 times.

New livery may not last long .
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...rways-livery-to-be-decided-382391/

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-02-16 14:46:49 and read 15051 times.

Quoting etops1 (Reply 85):
New livery may not last long .

Good! The more I see that tail, the dumber it looks.

Nice quote: "Henry Harteveldt, a travel industry analyst at Hudson Crossing, said on Twitter that it looks like 'the spawn of a three-way between a regional airline, a 1970s charter airline, and a third-world airline' while others said that they liked the look."

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: blueman87
Posted 2013-02-16 15:54:35 and read 14911 times.

Quoting Polot (Reply 13):
With all the conflict with TWA employees AA has had in its past I would not expect to see a TWA retrojet anytime soon.

i hope its there last one in my opinion i think that was the best or the double red line one

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: AngMoh
Posted 2013-02-16 16:44:44 and read 14878 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 86):
Good! The more I see that tail, the dumber it looks.

Nice quote: "Henry Harteveldt, a travel industry analyst at Hudson Crossing, said on Twitter that it looks like 'the spawn of a three-way between a regional airline, a 1970s charter airline, and a third-world airline' while others said that they liked the look."

But also note the following:

"At US Airways Parker has been known as a cost-conscious executive, not spending, for example, on advertising because the return did not justify the expense, and is unlikely to take on any additional costs that do not have an evident revenue benefit at the merged carrier."

I think the livery stays because it is the cheapest option.

Quoting questions (Reply 82):
I think there is still time to change the livery for the merged entity... AND... I think this one by Anthony Harding is the best. I wonder how much they would have to pay him for it.

This one is absolutely awful.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: blueman87
Posted 2013-02-16 17:44:46 and read 14794 times.

Just saw a youtube video i think the new livery is the new livery

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68xF-j9h6us

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: DCA2011
Posted 2013-02-16 19:31:38 and read 14629 times.

Quoting blueman87 (Reply 89):
Just saw a youtube video i think the new livery is the new livery

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68xF-j9h6us

Seems like they took heavy cues from the Atlanta Anthem ad that Delta had around the time of the NW merger. Its as if they had the same storyboard almost.

http://youtu.be/ZCvE6YbVGzA


EDIT: I just watched the two ads at the same time and muted the new American ad while playing the Delta audio. The Delta audio lines up almost perfectly with the scenes from the AA video. Try it and see, its pretty interesting to watch!

[Edited 2013-02-16 19:35:12]

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: Polot
Posted 2013-02-16 19:37:14 and read 14562 times.

Quoting DCA2011 (Reply 90):
Seems like they took heavy cues from the Atlanta Anthem ad that Delta had around the time of the NW merger. Its as if they had the same storyboard almost.

That is from when they rebranded, about a year before the NW merger. But yeah, when I first saw the AA video I was reminded about the beginning of this one (although after the opening imagery they move in completely different directions).

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: Mat1776
Posted 2013-02-16 20:27:16 and read 14496 times.

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 88):
But also note the following:

"At US Airways Parker has been known as a cost-conscious executive, not spending, for example, on advertising because the return did not justify the expense, and is unlikely to take on any additional costs that do not have an evident revenue benefit at the merged carrier."

I think the livery stays because it is the cheapest option.

It may be cheaper to keep the current US livery and slap the American Airlines title on it. They may save money by having to repaint just the AA planes.

I cannot get used to the new American tail. Besides looking like a product of a design team of 8-year-old kids, the jarring combination of patterns and shades of colours makes me physically ill. albeit mildly.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: AllegiantFlyer
Posted 2013-02-16 21:31:47 and read 14390 times.

i think it would be a cool idea for the new AA (when its finally merged) to have special Liveries for each state,You know being American and all.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: questions
Posted 2013-02-16 21:41:27 and read 14387 times.

How about a special livery called Greed -- on one side all the dollars pilfered from employees; on the other side all the money paid out in executive compensation

[Edited 2013-02-16 21:42:08]

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: questions
Posted 2013-02-16 21:46:21 and read 14463 times.

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 88):
This one is absolutely awful.



I agree.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2013-02-17 00:57:12 and read 14266 times.

Quoting etops1 (Reply 85):
New livery may not last long .

Wishful thinking by an obviously biased writer who, at the end of his post, specifically quotes one more or less random guy on twitter who hates the look (though identified with the important-sounding "industry analyst" tag), then dismissively adds "while others said that they liked the look" without a quote.

The important part that it sounds like you didn't read is this:

At US Airways Parker has been known as a cost-conscious executive, not spending, for example, on advertising because the return did not justify the expense, and is unlikely to take on any additional costs that do not have an evident revenue benefit at the merged carrier.

There will be no redesign of the livery. This is the livery, and it is time for people to get used to it, whether you like it or not. You don't have to like it, but rehashing the same criticisms over and over as if your opinion on the subject is going to change anything is just not going to help anyone or anything.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: 817Dreamliiner
Posted 2013-02-17 02:06:27 and read 14279 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 96):

  

I really doubt this livery is gonna change. I guess all the people who hate it here just cant accept change...

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: AAplat4life
Posted 2013-02-17 06:44:58 and read 13979 times.

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 97):
I really doubt this livery is gonna change. I guess all the people who hate it here just cant accept change.

I can accept change. I cannot accept bad decisions. If Parker wants to succeed, he is going to have to clean house at AMR corporate HQ and bring in a lot of new blood.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-17 08:41:33 and read 13904 times.

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 98):
I can accept change. I cannot accept bad decisions.

Funny how every change somebody disagrees with is a "bad decision" or a "step in the wrong direction".
Personally, I dislike the new Germanwings livery, because it's the blandest possible re-hash of the brand that you could imagine. I still wouldn't go so far as calling it a "bad decision", because I don't think it is going to have a material impact on operating economics.
Contrary to what who dislike it want to make it appear, the fact that there are people - here as well as (or even particularly) outside aviation enthusiast circles - that do seem to like the new livery suggests that AA's new livery is not unanimously seen as a "bad decision".
May I remind people how much dislike the previous livery got when it was first introduced because it was so crass compared to other liveries of the day. And see how long that one lasted. I'm not necessarily saying that the new AA look is also going to be around for 40+ years, but pointing out that judging the longevity of a livery (which eventually doesn't really influence operating economics) by first responses from a very small circle of people with a level of interest in aviation that the general (travelling) public doesn't share may not give you a very accurate picture.

Also, consider that even in the video introducing the new livery and general corporate identity, Horton mentioned ongoing merger talks. So I'd be pretty sure that the new CI and livery weren't introduced without a minimum level of coordination with US Airways' management.

Furthermore, if Parker is indeed such a shrewd businessman, he'll take into account the money that was already spent on the livery/CI and its introduction in the media and ads. And as he'll agree that going forward AA needs a new identity anyway, he won't see much reason for spending similar amounts again on re-doing the same job again. Which would include another repainting of all AA jets that undergo repainting between now and Q3 (when the merger is expected to be finalised), plus a repaint of all new 737s, 777s and A319s that will be delivered in the same timeframe. In any case, the best they could do would be going from one livery that some people don't like to another livery that roughly the same amount of people (although not necessarily the exact same people) will dislike.
So overall, I expect the post-merger AA livery to be very much the same as the newly introduced AA livery, maybe plus some very minor details that can be taken care of by the use of decals. I could for instance see them going with a representation of all the airline predecessors to the merged AA somewhere on the fuselage, like US already does:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tilthouse/2302903959/
For AA, that could be AL, PS, Piedmont, US, HP, TW, QQ and OC.
(Now, how to fit all of them into a discrete display is another matter   )

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 98):
If Parker wants to succeed, he is going to have to clean house at AMR corporate HQ and bring in a lot of new blood.

Sounds like a good idea, but the livery has nothing to do with that.

[Edited 2013-02-17 08:46:52]

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-17 08:53:43 and read 13796 times.

Quoting blueman87 (Reply 89):
Just saw a youtube video i think the new livery is the new livery

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68xF-...9h6us

True - the way the two old AA and US logos merged to become the new AA logo very much suggests that the new AA CI was designed to be the post-merger CI as well. Which makes sense considering that neither the merger talks nor the corporate identity and livery discussions and decisions happened overnight. Also, as I said I'm sure that something as substantial as a planned total identity overhaul for AA would have been discussed during the merger negotiations as well.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: N766UA
Posted 2013-02-17 09:10:03 and read 13724 times.

The new carrier will absolutely carry AA's new livery, as awful as it is. I don't even understand how this could be up for discussion?

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: Mat1776
Posted 2013-02-17 09:50:59 and read 13746 times.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 99):
Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 98):
If Parker wants to succeed, he is going to have to clean house at AMR corporate HQ and bring in a lot of new blood.

Sounds like a good idea, but the livery has nothing to do with that.

One school of thought holds that the management team that, at least partially, was responsible for getting the company into bankruptcy in the first place, is not the best management team to decide on the re-branding out of the bankruptcy.

I presume that AAplat4life's point was that the competency of the re-branding effort was a result of the management team that needed "house cleaned".

In other words, would you trust all of the judgement of the management team that needed "house cleaned"?

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: questions
Posted 2013-02-17 10:11:08 and read 13680 times.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 100):
Which makes sense considering that neither the merger talks nor the corporate identity and livery discussions and decisions happened overnight. Also, as I said I'm sure that something as substantial as a planned total identity overhaul for AA would have been discussed during the merger negotiations as well.

Which makes you wonder if there was a timing glitch. Said another way, the announcement of the merger and new identity were to coincide but for some reason the talks were held up and AMR had to go ahead with rolling out the new identity then announcing the merger.

Parker obviously new about the new branding work. The degree to which he agreed to it is unknown. If he didn't like what he saw I doubt he would have said anything too strongly because he was focused on the bigger picture -- getting the deal done. Now that he's in control and with a handful of planes painted he has a small window to modify the livery -- e.g., replace the stylized USA flag on the tail with the new flight symbol.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: SPREE34
Posted 2013-02-17 11:09:52 and read 13673 times.

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 88):
I think the livery stays because it is the cheapest option.

Cheaper how? If AA has to paint the fleet anyhow, the new scheme can't be any cheaper than just staying with the US scheme, with the American title. Then the cost of repainting the US fleet is saved, aside from adding "American" to the side. The AA fleet can just be repainted as scheduled maintenance or per the rebrand timeline.

There may be slight cost differences in the US vs AA scheme, but can't guess as to more or less.

Quoting Mat1776 (Reply 92):

It may be cheaper to keep the current US livery and slap the American Airlines title on it.

     

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-17 11:35:20 and read 13507 times.

Quoting Mat1776 (Reply 102):
One school of thought holds that the management team that, at least partially, was responsible for getting the company into bankruptcy in the first place, is not the best management team to decide on the re-branding out of the bankruptcy.

Firstly, if you think that the management team aren't fit to decide on a cosmetic aspect like a rebrand, why do you think they'd be fit to make a much more far-reaching decision like whether or not to merge with US?
Secondly, it seems to me that Horton did what he could do in those couple of years that he was CEO; he placed the biggest airplane order in history (a much-needed one for AA, given its huge fleet of fuel-guzzling MD-80s), got quite significant concessions from both OEMs on the deal and its financing, finally had AA swallow its pride and enter chapter 11, which enabled necessary new agreements with staff, suppliers and creditors - and he finally paved the way for the merger with US. Sounds alright to me, to be honest, without ever having been a huge fan of AA to begin with.
Thirdly, please keep some perspective: The AA re-branding itself won universal praise, even on a.net (and it wasn't designed by Horton personally, but by the same studio that designed BA's current livery). It's the tail that people on a.net tend to get their knickers in a twist about and are looking for any excuse to get rid of. I understand that aesthetical likes and dislikes can get people really worked up, but trying to paint the tail as a major management screw-up is maybe stretching things a bit far.
Now, if there had been wide-ranging discussions in the non-aviation media about how the tail was distasteful, etc., that would be different. However, the media (and the public) in general seem to have moved on quite quickly. The stance seems to be "It's a new look, let's see what's behind it and whether they live up to the promise of 'A New American'". It's only in aviation forums (particularly a.net - airliners.de's forum has a much more positive attitude to the new look) and aviation media outlets like Flight Global, Scott Hamilton's column, ATW, Aviation Week, etc. that people have a hard time getting over the shock.
Personally, I think this is a good shock, by the way, as it is such a drastic departure from what AA looked like before - and that departure was certainly needed in public opinion which held AA and its looks in much lower regard than the average a.net user.

Quoting questions (Reply 103):
Which makes you wonder if there was a timing glitch. Said another way, the announcement of the merger and new identity were to coincide but for some reason the talks were held up and AMR had to go ahead with rolling out the new identity then announcing the merger.

Parker obviously new about the new branding work. The degree to which he agreed to it is unknown. If he didn't like what he saw I doubt he would have said anything too strongly because he was focused on the bigger picture

I'm pretty sure if there had been any major objections to the new CI and livery, these would have been discussed and been part of the merger discussions, considering that any change post-merger would mean additional cost for the carrier. Particularly if - as you suggest - the original idea was to introduce the livery and CI at the same time as announcing the merger.
Never mind that from an image-perspective, they'd still be better off keeping what they have instead of making a big announcement of "The New American" in the lead-up of the merger, then using the new branding as a differentiator of old AA/old US and new AA, and then changing it again within half a year.
In short, I cannot see them drastically changing their livery (which I like) any more than I can see Germanwings or Finnair change their new liveries (which I hate).

Quoting questions (Reply 103):
Now that he's in control and with a handful of planes painted he has a small window to modify the livery

Don't forget he's not in control yet. The merger is only expected to be completed in Q3 2013.
As I pointed out above, until then, a few dozen existing planes in the fleet as well as a few dozen more newly-delivered 737s, 777s, A319s and A321s will be wearing the new livery. I read somewhere (can't find the source at the moment) that AA want to get about 90 planes painted by the end of 2013. They're also expecting to take delivery of 60 new planes from Airbus and Boeing. So midway through Q3 we're no longer talking about "a handful" of planes any more, but at least 100 new and re-painted planes.

Surely, Parker is going to be part of all important decisions regarding AA/US from here on - but as I said above, I would expect him to have been in the know about any such imprtant decisions (such as the rebrand) in the last few months anyway.

Quoting questions (Reply 103):
-- e.g., replace the stylized USA flag on the tail with the new flight symbol.

A popular suggestion, but I have to admit that all the renditions I've seen of this so far looked stupefyingly boring in my opinion.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-17 12:20:59 and read 13451 times.

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 104):
Cheaper how? If AA has to paint the fleet anyhow, the new scheme can't be any cheaper than just staying with the US scheme, with the American title. Then the cost of repainting the US fleet is saved, aside from adding "American" to the side. The AA fleet can just be repainted as scheduled maintenance or per the rebrand timeline.

Cheaper in the following ways:
1) Money already spent on the new branding itself.
2) Money already spent on advertising and publicity surrounding the new branding/livery introduction.
3) Money already spent on promoting the new look in the merger announcement publicity (websites, press releases, etc.), thus reinforcing the public profile of the new livery and look.
4) Money that will continue to be spent between now and Q3 on advertising that will use the new look.
5) The fact that the branding itself got a lot of praise - the only part of it that came under criticism (in relatively small circles) was the design on the horizontal stabiliser. Why pay for it and then scrap it - least of all in favour of the US branding? Sounds like utter madness to me.
6) The fact that by the time the merger is completed (i.e. by the time Parker officially takes the helm), there are going to be 100-odd planes in the new AA livery.
7) Everything I said above about planes also applies to the design of check-in counters, departure lounges, etc.
8) They use a "The New American" claim they introduced with the new livery, which coincided with progress on firming orders and reporting a Q4 2012 net profit; they then announced a merger with PR re-using the "New American" claim and stating "US and AA will become AA" and emphasising how the combined entity is basically going to be something new altogether. Now, to go from that to just slapping the US paintjob on AA's planes would not only mean an incredible waste of money, it would also be a much, much bigger PR and image disaster than a tail design disliked by some people on a.net could ever be. And yes, that does matter when considering rebrands. You can only do major rebrands and brand claims every so often if you don't want to water down their effect.
9) The fact that slapping the US paintjob onto AA planes will still not solve the basic dilemma: There will always be people that are going to hate the particular design choice they're making. Slapping the US paintjob (which is also not universally liked) onto AA's planes and calling it "American Airlines" not only looks terribly cheap, but is likely to be even more controversial than the new AA tail currently is. (Imagine you're working for a company that just introduced a new branding that you're not totally happy about - and then your company merges with a much smaller competitor and yet your company is forced to use the smaller company's branding.)

It's been said before in the threads about the new livery itself, but I really think it's time to move on and cope with the fact that some like the new livery, some don't. As is the case with pretty much every other airline livery out there.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: 777way
Posted 2013-02-17 21:37:26 and read 13222 times.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 105):
Quoting questions (Reply 103): -- e.g., replace the stylized USA flag on the tail with the new flight symbol.
A popular suggestion, but I have to admit that all the renditions I've seen of this so far looked stupefyingly boring in my opinion.

Not that bad.

http://www.cardatabase.net/modifieda...earch/photo_search.php?id=00015567

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: questions
Posted 2013-02-17 22:37:30 and read 12929 times.

Quoting 777way (Reply 107):
Not that bad.

http://www.cardatabase.net/modifieda...15567

That works too!!

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: atcanobbio
Posted 2013-02-17 22:54:09 and read 12935 times.

Quoting 777way (Reply 107):

this livery is not bad.

But how other have mentioned, at first, I wasn't sure what to think of the new AA livery, especially the tail, but the more pics i see of it, the more I'm starting to like it. I just like how the tail really pops compared to others. It's a head turner i think.

I'm sure some people will never be happy with it since the change was very dramatic and many people thought the new livery was going to be a modernization of the old livery. You can't please everyone, right?

lastly, I have to give AA props for really going of the box with the livery. I wish LH, AF, and other euro airlines would follow suit. The euro-white schemes are really REALLY boring. The only euro-white scheme I like at the moment is VS's livery, only because they use metallic red and it looks great when the sun hits it.

these are my two cents.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-18 17:30:45 and read 12628 times.

Quoting 777way (Reply 107):
Not that bad

Sorry to disappoint, but that's one of the renditions I meant. It gives you what is basically a blue tail with no additional design features. The stylised eagle wouldn't stand out much - white/silver/grey on a grey fuselage - and then below it follows a bit of red that looks like an afterthought (mostly hidden by the aircraft's own shadow while on the ground).
All of that takes away from the effect of the logo IMHO, which on its own looks nicely balanced. When applied to the tail like this, it's extremely imbalanced to the point where its character is heavily altered.

Quoting atcanobbio (Reply 109):
lastly, I have to give AA props for really going of the box with the livery. I wish LH, AF, and other euro airlines would follow suit. The euro-white schemes are really REALLY boring.

  

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2013-02-18 17:50:52 and read 12591 times.

Quoting atcanobbio (Reply 109):
lastly, I have to give AA props for really going of the box with the livery. I wish LH, AF, and other euro airlines would follow suit. The euro-white schemes are really REALLY boring.

How is this any different from the SR EuroWhite scheme? National flag on the tail, name in billboard. Only difference is grey for white and the presence of a corporate logo.


View Large View Medium
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Photo © J.Laporte



I don't have to like it, but I guess I have to get used to it. In all probability, it will be around for some time. And not only that, but after the whole Ron Allen thing at DL, we learned to be careful what we wished for. We wished Ron Allen to go away and got DeltaFlot, instead. That wasn't what we'd had in mind.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: questions
Posted 2013-02-18 18:47:21 and read 12488 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 111):
How is this any different from the SR EuroWhite scheme? National flag on the tail, name in billboard. Only difference is grey for white and the presence of a corporate logo.

I don't have to like it, but I guess I have to get used to it. In all probability, it will be around for some time. And not only that, but after the whole Ron Allen thing at DL, we learned to be careful what we wished for. We wished Ron Allen to go away and got DeltaFlot, instead. That wasn't what we'd had in mind.

Or this...

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: atcanobbio
Posted 2013-02-18 21:37:18 and read 12297 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 111):

IMO, I don't think you cannot compare metallic grey vs regular white paint. The cool thing about metallic paints is that the color looks different if it's sunny or cloudy, which in turn creates a cool effect. On the other hand, white paint looks white whether is sunny or cloudy outside, there's no change, making it fairly...boring.


again, this is my opinion. how you said you don't have to like it. Maybe you'll really get used to it in a year or ten  

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: 777way
Posted 2013-02-18 21:56:16 and read 12176 times.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 110):

Sorry to disappoint, but that's one of the renditions I meant. It gives you what is basically a blue tail with no additional design features. The stylised eagle wouldn't stand out much - white/silver/grey on a grey fuselage - and then below it follows a bit of red that looks like an afterthought (mostly hidden by the aircraft's own shadow while on the ground).
All of that takes away from the effect of the logo IMHO, which on its own looks nicely balanced. When applied to the tail like this, it's extremely imbalanced to the point where its character is heavily altered.

If you play around with the colours and shades you can get that Anthony Harding livery look, the blue goes dark, the fuselage gets two shades of grey the darker ones making the eagle really stand out, maybe the engine go blue too.

The Swiss livery is really boring, I would have liked them to have the NWA silver livery, exact same stlying too just put swiss flag cross on tail not the current thinner one, and Swiss on fuselage in thicker font,, with an appropriatelt resized Swiss flag next to it, maybe even as small as the red pointer on the NWA livery just to add that flash of colour onto the fuselage.

[Edited 2013-02-18 22:05:24]

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: F9animal
Posted 2013-02-18 22:00:54 and read 12198 times.

Parker has not confirmed that the new AA livery will stay or go. The fact that he did not answer a direct question is clear enough to me that nothing is for sure here. The merger will require a branding that Parker will ultimately decide. If Parker chooses a new livery, I hope he brings back the eagle, and expands the heritage planes.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: B377
Posted 2013-02-18 23:09:29 and read 12106 times.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 115):
Parker has not confirmed that the new AA livery will stay or go.

My take on this is that advertising including the new "livery" that AA presented to us is just the discussion that they wanted to start.

Whether it is good or bad, the real purpose of advertising to to get your name out in front of your competitors...and they certainly accomplished that.

Now it remains to be seen if this results in more or less bookings. If more it will stay, if less it may go.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-02-18 23:37:44 and read 12059 times.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 115):
Parker has not confirmed that the new AA livery will stay or go. The fact that he did not answer a direct question is clear enough to me that nothing is for sure here.

If you were Parker, would you want "Horton's Tail" as the mark of the airline you're rebuilding?

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: iFlyLOTs
Posted 2013-02-19 06:07:35 and read 11810 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 117):
If you were Parker, would you want "Horton's Tail" as the mark of the airline you're rebuilding?

If you were Parker, would you want to pay to have a new livery designed when Horton already has?

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: aajfksjubklyn
Posted 2013-02-19 10:46:58 and read 11554 times.

Horton called Parker the day before the logo was released. Parker said he liked it. This was in endless articles online and in the Dallas Morning News. Why is there even a discussion about this?

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-02-19 10:58:11 and read 11486 times.

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 118):
If you were Parker, would you want to pay to have a new livery designed when Horton already has?

If I was the CEO, yeah, I'd probably have the tail re-worked seeing how it wasn't widely received well, and it being a reminder of the previous administration. But that's just my personal opinion, since you asked. YMMV

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: 817Dreamliiner
Posted 2013-02-19 11:23:45 and read 11373 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 120):

If I was the CEO, yeah, I'd probably have the tail re-worked seeing how it wasn't widely received well

I think you need to look beyond A.net...

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2013-02-19 11:29:07 and read 11380 times.

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 118):
If you were Parker, would you want to pay to have a new livery designed when Horton already has?

Should make note that the newer US Airways scheme (post-HP merger) was designed in house and not by a third party.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-02-19 11:55:54 and read 11272 times.

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 121):
I think you need to look beyond A.net...

I have. I don't want to rehash the whole episode, but there are many sources around the web and in print stating that the tail isn't all that well-liked. Some like it, some don't!

I was asked for my opinion, what I would do, and answered it. Doesn't have to be the same opinion others hold.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: 817Dreamliiner
Posted 2013-02-19 12:23:55 and read 11202 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 123):
I have. I don't want to rehash the whole episode, but there are many sources around the web and in print stating that the tail isn't all that well-liked. Some like it, some don't!

Sure you have... I did as well, but I guess what I saw and what you saw was different...

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 123):

I was asked for my opinion, what I would do, and answered it. Doesn't have to be the same opinion others hold.

And you gave your opinion, I was only commenting on the "not well received part"

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-02-19 12:34:08 and read 11217 times.

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 124):
I was only commenting on the "not well received part"

I don't know what part of that you missed outside of a.net then. Just one of many examples:

American Airlines gets new livery for no apparent reason ... and it's pretty hideous

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: cactus739
Posted 2013-02-19 12:48:00 and read 11144 times.

I'm obviously in the minority here but I rather like the tail, the more I look at it the more it grows on me.

The only quibble I have with it is that there's only 12 white-grey and red stripes and really should be 13....

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: surfdog75
Posted 2013-02-19 13:01:41 and read 11264 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 125):
I don't know what part of that you missed outside of a.net then. Just one of many examples:American Airlines gets new livery for no apparent reason ... and it's pretty hideous

He says the logo looks like "an eagle's beak poking through a shower curtain." Pretty funny.

[Edited 2013-02-19 13:02:23]

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: Mat1776
Posted 2013-02-19 13:31:42 and read 11259 times.

I must admit that the new AA tail is not boring.
I personally think it is just as hip, distinctive, modern, and tasteful as this plaid "leisure suit" from the rocking 70s.
http://img2.etsystatic.com/000/0/5724144/il_fullxfull.274289042.jpg

To each his own.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-19 13:31:49 and read 11246 times.

Quoting cactus739 (Reply 126):
The only quibble I have with it is that there's only 12 white-grey and red stripes and really should be 13....

In many parts of the world 13 is considered an unluckly number (e.g. seat rows numbered 13 on many airlines, especially outside North America, and many hotels skipping 13 in floor numbers).

Reminds me of SN (Brussels Airlines) when they launched their new livery around 2005 with 13 dots on the tail that formed the letter "b" for Brussels. The got quite a bit of feedback that the 13 dots was bad luck and they quickly changd it to add a 14th dot.

Original (13 dots)


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Photo © Giovanni Verbeeck



Revised, same aircraft (14 dots)


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Photo © Alastair T. Gardiner - WorldAirImages

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: D L X
Posted 2013-02-19 14:57:08 and read 11033 times.

Quoting surfdog75 (Reply 127):
He says the logo looks like "an eagle's beak poking through a shower curtain." Pretty funny.

THIS is the winning line: "Colgan had sex with CSA and Cubana on a Greyhound bus in the same weekend and got pregnant. We know Colgan is the mother but we can’t tell who the father is. Nor do we care because the baby is still ugly either way."

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: iFlyLOTs
Posted 2013-02-19 15:17:09 and read 10938 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 120):
If I was the CEO, yeah, I'd probably have the tail re-worked seeing how it wasn't widely received well, and it being a reminder of the previous administration.

Fair enough, I personally wouldn't want to go through having to re-design a livery that was paid for and that an incoming fleet of planes is already going to have applied to it. Maybe its just me that sees it that way. But wouldn't it really confuse the non-aviation-enthusiast public having three current liveries for one airline?

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: YYZbound
Posted 2013-02-19 15:24:04 and read 10949 times.

People hated the Delta livery when it first came out as well...I might add A.netters were quite nasty about it...

...didn't seem to affect the airline's performance

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-02-19 15:42:19 and read 10910 times.

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 131):
But wouldn't it really confuse the non-aviation-enthusiast public having three current liveries for one airline?

Delta had three different liveries going at once, at that was for quite some time. The Ron Allen livery, introduced in 1997, didn't get completely painted over until 2008, while Deltaflot was introduced in 2001, I think it was, even while there were still planes flying around in the original widget livery until 2004-2005(?). I'm sure someone will correct for the exact dates if I got them a bit off.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: planeguy727
Posted 2013-02-19 16:55:06 and read 10772 times.

Take the blue/red thing with the beak like bit. Turn it left about 90 degrees.

Now you have a shark fin moving forward through blue water and trailing blood.

Am I the only one that had this thought?

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: CoachClass
Posted 2013-02-19 18:26:11 and read 10650 times.

Quoting cactus739 (Reply 126):
The only quibble I have with it is that there's only 12 white-grey and red stripes and really should be 13....

And, don't forget that there are no blue stripes on the flag; blue is the background for the 50 stars. The stars are not represented at all on the tail. So much for the Stars and Stripes.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: ADent
Posted 2013-02-19 19:40:14 and read 10590 times.

They said they were not going to change the original post-merger United scheme - yet they ended up changing that awful font.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: antoniemey
Posted 2013-02-20 02:54:32 and read 10210 times.

Quoting YYZbound (Reply 132):
People hated the Delta livery when it first came out as well...

I didn't like it then. It's grown on me, but it's still a LONG way from my favorite now... I hate the tail because of the tip of the widget is snipped... The tail of the aircraft is the ONLY place in DL's branding where both ends of the widget are cropped. They should have placed and sized it so that they tip of the widget was at the forward edge of the tail and only the back end was cropped off. It would look better and be more consistent with their signage.

Quoting CoachClass (Reply 135):
And, don't forget that there are no blue stripes on the flag; blue is the background for the 50 stars. The stars are not represented at all on the tail. So much for the Stars and Stripes.

I, personally, would be very happy if they simply made the blue a solid field, without the white stripes through it.

Quoting ADent (Reply 136):
They said they were not going to change the original post-merger United scheme - yet they ended up changing that awful font.

That font is quite nice... when it says "Continental". it just doesn't work for United because of 2 things: the U and the fact that United has had a sans-serif font for ages. It's the kind of small tweak that can make or break any livery, and yet it's still small enough for them to say "See, we said we were keeping this livery and we did."

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: etops1
Posted 2013-02-20 11:08:35 and read 9895 times.

Quoting aajfksjubklyn (Reply 119):

Parker never said he liked it .

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: KL5147
Posted 2013-02-20 11:37:55 and read 9968 times.

I was in Toulouse last monday (feb 18) and I noticed an A320 on the flight line. (the far right of the three planes) It's tail was painted in the present US coulours, while in contrare of the other AC on the flightline the hull was not painted. Could it be this AC will be painted in the new AA scheme?.
Sorry for the bad quality of pic and for having no clues of the regi.

Finkenwerder 18-02-2013

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: Polot
Posted 2013-02-20 11:42:34 and read 9932 times.

Quoting KL5147 (Reply 139):
I was in Toulouse last monday (feb 18) and I noticed an A320 on the flight line. (the far right of the three planes) It's tail was painted in the present US coulours, while in contrare of the other AC on the flightline the hull was not painted. Could it be this AC will be painted in the new AA scheme?.

Airbus painting the tail before the fuselage is very common:

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None of US's planes will be delivered in the new scheme until the merger is actually approved by the authorities, so they don't have to repaint it if the merger falls through.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: KL5147
Posted 2013-02-21 00:13:31 and read 9498 times.

Quoting KL5147 (Reply 139):
Toulouse la

oops to late to edit .... it was Finkenwerder of course

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: aerokiwi
Posted 2013-02-21 02:58:41 and read 9385 times.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 99):
Furthermore, if Parker is indeed such a shrewd businessman, he'll take into account the money that was already spent on the livery/CI and its introduction in the media and ads.

Yeah but as any shrewd businessman knows, it's a sunk cost and can't be recovered.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 99):
And as he'll agree that going forward AA needs a new identity anyway, he won't see much reason for spending similar amounts again on re-doing the same job again.

Unless it's a dud, and he feels that it is a net negative for the company.

And dismissing it as just aviation fanboy/girl-ism is pretty nonsensical - if branding didn't matter, we'd just fly around all-white tubes with the airline's name on the front. Wait a sec... Finnair.... hrmmmmm!

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: flyguy89
Posted 2013-02-21 08:45:44 and read 9123 times.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 142):
Quoting anfromme (Reply 99):
And as he'll agree that going forward AA needs a new identity anyway, he won't see much reason for spending similar amounts again on re-doing the same job again.

Unless it's a dud, and he feels that it is a net negative for the company.

...which it wasn't. The re-brand has been pretty much praised all around, from passengers to branding professionals, the only area of criticism has been of the tail in certain small circles, otherwise the re-brand has been a success.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: N737AA
Posted 2013-02-21 08:53:57 and read 9131 times.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 101):
The new carrier will absolutely carry AA's new livery, as awful as it is. I don't even understand how this could be up for discussion?
Quoting questions (Reply 103):
Parker obviously new about the new branding work. The degree to which he agreed to it is unknown.
Quoting F9animal (Reply 115):
Parker has not confirmed that the new AA livery will stay or go. The fact that he did not answer a direct question is clear enough to me that nothing is for sure here. The merger will require a branding that Parker will ultimately decide. If Parker chooses a new livery, I hope he brings back the eagle, and expands the heritage planes.

F9animal is right, when asked Parker seemed very disinterested in confirming that the new AA livery would be the livery for the combined airline. He went on to say, "I wasn't involved in the design, you have done some good work, but I don't have an opinion on the livery itself." He did go on to say that Tom would be busy painting lots of airplanes before the merger closes so it will have to be delt with. His body language tells me that he doesn't like it and he has his own idea of what it should be, but until he is in charge, he isn't going to worry about it.

N737AA

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-21 09:12:18 and read 9144 times.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 143):
...which it wasn't. The re-brand has been pretty much praised all around, from passengers to branding professionals, the only area of criticism has been of the tail in certain small circles, otherwise the re-brand has been a success.

  
Couldn't agree more. Given this, I definitely don't see management (old or new) spending any time, money and effort on getting a new tail design and repainting what by Q3 is going to be around 90 - 100 repainted and newly delivered planes. (Which also means that the new tail is going to be pretty common by then in terms of customer visibility.)

N737AA, you stated in another thread:

Quoting N737AA:
He did say that it would be a hard decision since many planes would be wearing it by the time the deal closes and he takes over.

As I already wrote in that thread:
In my experience, management-speak "it would be a hard decision" means "not going to happen".

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2013-02-21 09:14:48 and read 9088 times.

Quoting atcanobbio (Reply 73):
AA should have waited for the livery re-do and done something like this as their AA+US livery.

Love it!

Quoting 777way (Reply 107):
Not that bad.

http://www.cardatabase.net/modifieda...earch/photo_search.php?id=00015567

This works well, too!!!

Quoting anfromme (Reply 105):
I understand that aesthetical likes and dislikes can get people really worked up, but trying to paint the tail as a major management screw-up is maybe stretching things a bit far.

It is an utter management screw-up. The new design is, as Mike Boyd claims, professionally irresponsible. The airline will be spending MILLIONS on this ugly paint scheme and will still layoff hundreds of employees. The thought makes me sick.

Quoting N737AA (Reply 144):
His body language tells me that he doesn't like it and he has his own idea of what it should be, but until he is in charge, he isn't going to worry about it.

So help me God. I really, REALLY hope Parker does something about this disAAster and fixes it before it is too late.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: flyguy89
Posted 2013-02-21 09:43:49 and read 9029 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 146):
Quoting anfromme (Reply 105):
I understand that aesthetical likes and dislikes can get people really worked up, but trying to paint the tail as a major management screw-up is maybe stretching things a bit far.

It is an utter management screw-up. The new design is, as Mike Boyd claims, professionally irresponsible. The airline will be spending MILLIONS on this ugly paint scheme and will still layoff hundreds of employees. The thought makes me sick.

Again, ugly to you perhaps, but the reception of the re-brand has been overwhelmingly positive.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: F9animal
Posted 2013-02-21 09:48:19 and read 9059 times.

I can promise Parker and team had spent time studying a merger livery way before this paint job was applied. As a betting man, I am going to put my dollar on a new refreshing paint job that will be much more eye catching. And I hope that the Eagle makes a rapid return.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-21 10:10:57 and read 9047 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 146):
The new design is, as Mike Boyd claims, professionally irresponsible.

Ironically, that sort of statement coming from an aviation analyst (unless you refer to the basketball player or the Denver-based drummer of the same name), seems in itself to be professionally irresponsible to me.
Clearly somebody trying to leverage his job to push something that really only concerns his own personal taste. Boyd is an aviation analyst (and/or basketball player and/or drummer), not a design/marketing professional. So what exactly is his qualification for making such a statement?
At that, he's also the only business analyst that the new AA design is "professionally irresponsible" - if he really did make that statement. I could also not find any design professionals who would agree with Boyd. Massimo Vignelli, the guy that designed the previous livery (minus the eagle, which he still thinks should not have been added) was critical of the new design - but he's not exactly unbiased.
On the other hand, Mark Kingsley, who has - uhm - some background in brand design (e.g. as lead creative for major accounts with the Landor Associates design studio) has pretty much nothing but praise for the new AA look.

You may not agree with Kingsley (or, in my case, Vignelli), but this - along with the other positive responses here and elsewhere - clearly shows that the new design isn't a clear-cut "awful idea, no buts about it". It divides opinion, but it's clearly not "irresponsible" any more than, say, the new Germanwings, Iberia or any other livery is "irresponsible". No matter how much I personally dislike a particular livery.

Scott Hamilton (the aviation analyst, not the figure skater) is also not a huge fan of the tail, but he always makes clear that that's his own taste. He'd never stoop so low as to use his standing as an analyst to try and push his own personal taste; i.e. he'd never claim that the design would have any effect on AA's chances of succes and its bottom line (which is basically what Boyd is implying).

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 146):
It is an utter management screw-up. The new design is, as Mike Boyd claims, professionally irresponsible. The airline will be spending MILLIONS on this ugly paint scheme and will still layoff hundreds of employees. The thought makes me sick.

Well, you're definitely proving my point here:

Quoting anfromme (Reply 105):
I understand that aesthetical likes and dislikes can get people really worked up,

I may add: So worked up that people tend to lose any sense of perspective.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-21 10:13:54 and read 9090 times.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 148):
As a betting man, I am going to put my dollar on a new refreshing paint job that will be much more eye catching.

[i]More[i/] eye-catching that than bright red-blue-white tail that some people already think is standing out too much? Doesn't sound like such a great idea.
Anyway, I'll firmly place my $ (or even a full €) on "There will not be any drastic change to the livery once the merger is complete."  

Now, probably time to talk about something else in the meantime...  

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: garpd
Posted 2013-02-21 10:27:41 and read 9011 times.

Personally, I think livery will remain as it is. American is a stronger brand name than US Airways. The new airline will be "American Airlines". So the livery will remain unchanged. I'm pretty sure they had the merger in mind when coming up with this re-brand.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: PHLBOS
Posted 2013-02-21 12:23:41 and read 9136 times.

While some have commented regarding the future of US' current heritage schemes (and whether more will be added); nobody has yet commented on whether US' NFL schemes (Eagles, Steelers, Panthers) will continue (w/American titles en lieu of US Airways titles) or not.

Yes, I realize that answer may be subject to whether AA (under Parker) will continue w/those sponsorships; but it's still worth throwing out there.

If AA continues such sponsorships and paints a plane in a Dallas Cowboys scheme and parks it next to the Philadlephia Eagles' scheme A319 at eitehr PHL or DFW; that plane scheme rivalry could equal that of the Bud Bowl

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: etops1
Posted 2013-02-21 12:47:21 and read 9064 times.

A new weekly employee publication on the US side of things called " Arrivals " debuted yesterday the 20th. It will give weekly updates on the merger front . There is also a Q&A section along with it . This question was asked and answered .

Q. What will happen to the American Airlines and
US Airways branding and livery?
A . American Airlines is one of the most iconic brands in
the world, and we are excited to operate under that globally recognized brand name. More specific branding and livery decisions will be made in due course as we move forward in the integration-planning process .


Take it how you wish but I think the current New AA livery will be short lived..

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: aerokiwi
Posted 2013-02-21 13:16:53 and read 8984 times.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 143):
The re-brand has been pretty much praised all around, from passengers to branding professionals,
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 147):
but the reception of the re-brand has been overwhelmingly positive.

Can you quantify this? At best I've seen "mixed" reviews and a split between opinions of the logo (not bad) and the livery (quite bad).

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2013-02-21 13:59:15 and read 8925 times.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 154):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 143):The re-brand has been pretty much praised all around, from passengers to branding professionals,Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 147):but the reception of the re-brand has been overwhelmingly positive.Can you quantify this? At best I've seen "mixed" reviews and a split between opinions of the logo (not bad) and the livery (quite bad).

Great point; so far most responses I've seen have been either indifferent or overwhelmingly negative. Very few positive responses.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: flyguy89
Posted 2013-02-21 14:15:57 and read 8966 times.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 154):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 143):
The re-brand has been pretty much praised all around, from passengers to branding professionals,
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 147):
but the reception of the re-brand has been overwhelmingly positive.

Can you quantify this? At best I've seen "mixed" reviews and a split between opinions of the logo (not bad) and the livery (quite bad).

Quantify? No. Unless there's been a comprehensive poll of the new brand that I'm unaware of, but there indicators one can refer to as well as going off of mainstream branding and industry sources instead of us nostalgic aviation nut jobs who would just as soon love AA to still be flying the 727, let alone be re-branded (no offense intended of course   ), it's been a success.

http://simpliflying.com/2013/a-stati...t-of-american-airlines-rebranding/

http://www.fastcodesign.com/1671677/...itself-and-america-along-with-it#1

http://www.underconsideration.com/br...ind_of_american_exceptionalism.php

EDIT:
Pay particular attention to the first link, it's an excellent analysis of the social media impact of the new branding...and the closest we'll really get to a quantifiable poll. It's an excellence source as it not only documents the activity regarding the brand, but important indicators such as "fans" and "subscribers".

[Edited 2013-02-21 14:20:06]

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-02-21 14:41:11 and read 8835 times.

Quoting 777way (Reply 6):
I prefer US Airways title font, hope they can adopt that, helvetica does not suit this new livery and American Airways sounds nice too.

Why? They will not spend more money on rebranding a rebrand. That is just a waste of money of which Doug Parker has never been known for.

Quoting etops1 (Reply 85):
New livery may not last long .
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...rways-livery-to-be-decided-382391/

This is a quote from an article posted above:

At US Airways Parker has been known as a cost-conscious executive, not spending, for example, on advertising because the return did not justify the expense, and is unlikely to take on any additional costs that do not have an evident revenue benefit at the merged carrier

The above may indicate that the new livery is here to stay.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: flyguy89
Posted 2013-02-21 14:55:41 and read 8950 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 157):
Quoting etops1 (Reply 85):
New livery may not last long .
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...rways-livery-to-be-decided-382391/

This is a quote from an article posted above:

At US Airways Parker has been known as a cost-conscious executive, not spending, for example, on advertising because the return did not justify the expense, and is unlikely to take on any additional costs that do not have an evident revenue benefit at the merged carrier

The above may indicate that the new livery is here to stay.

  

I also found this quote from Parker from this USA Today article: http://www.usatoday.com/story/todayi...rlines-to-unveil-new-look/1841591/

"We applaud our friends at American as the new brand elements and livery mark the culmination of a significant amount of work and coordination, and clearly those efforts have produced a compelling result."

Parker seems to me like the kind of guy who's content on letting the "nerds" take care of all the artsy brand stuff while leaving the actual running of the airline to him.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-21 15:04:06 and read 8840 times.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 154):
Can you quantify this? At best I've seen "mixed" reviews and a split between opinions of the logo (not bad) and the livery (quite bad).

Can you quantify that yourself? With something other than opinions voiced in a.net threads, that is?
Seems like selective perception on your part, to be honest. There are certainly more opinions out there than the "Logo is not bad, tail is terrible" opinion that you imply is the only split of opinion there is.
You'll be surprised to find that even in this thread - as well as the preceding and related ones on a.net - and also in other aviation enthusiast forums there are quite a few people that think the branding and the livery are great.
Check this out - although be warned that the first thing you'll see is a 767-300 freshly painted in the new colours:
http://www.wings900.com/vb/spotting/...-aa-767-new-livery-roswell-nm.html

Everybody outside the aviation enthusiast community that I've heard commenting on the livery said they quite liked it. Anecdotal evidence, yes, but so is what you've said.
Also refer to my previous post:

Quoting anfromme (Reply 149):
Mark Kingsley, who has - uhm - some background in brand design (e.g. as lead creative for major accounts with the Landor Associates design studio) has pretty much nothing but praise for the new AA look.

Then, there's an op-ed piece on creativereview.co.uk, the website for monthly commercial art and design magazine Creative Review. In it, the magazine's editor, Patrick Burgoyne, writes (some members better brace themselves now):

Quote:
The highlight for me is the tail livery. [...] it looks really beautiful and indisputably American.

There's another few design professionals quoted by Forbes.
Nik Hafermaas, who chairs the Graphic Design Department at Art Center College of Design in Pasadena, California:

Quote:
So, is it good or not? “Overall,” Hafermaas said, “I really applaud the bold step forward for a corporation of that exposure and that tradition.”

Kim Erwin, Assistant Professor, IIT Institute of Design, in Chicago:

Quote:
The effect is modern and dignified and strikes a nice balance between history and the new century.

Yes, they also have Kevin Gatta, Professor of Graduate Communications & Package Design at Brooklyn’s Pratt Institute, whose first complaint was why the "silver bird" look had to go. We all know the answer to that one. He thinks the livery would look better without the logo and the tail. Make of that what you will. A grey plane with the dark-grey word "American" on it for example.
In any case - my point being that there is some substance to flyguy89's claim that "the reception of the re-brand has been overwhelmingly positive." None of those that like the new livery claimed that everybody liked it; contrary to some here that hate the livery and who want to create the impression that everybody hates it.

In that sense, a.net may be a bit like Fox News or MSNBC; it keeps you in an information bubble. If you only read a.net, you really are surprised to find that everybody else does not hate AA's new livery and branding.

In any case, that Forbes article I quoted makes two points that I think are important.
Firstly:

Quote:
Everyone, it seems, has an opinion on the redesign of American Airlines’ logo and livery, announced last week. In casual conversation, I’ve heard “love it,” “hate it” and everything in between.

That in itself is of a value that should not be underestimated. There's a reporter that actually heard people talk about AA in casual conversation. And not in the context of Chapter 11. As I said, I found the same thing (with less difference in opinion, but that's besides the point) - people talking about the airline. The new branding creates some awareness, in an easily accessible way, and it clearly distinguishes itself from the previous image anybody may have had of AA. You don't have to know what Chapter 11 is to be able to causally converse about the new livery.

Secondly:

Quote:
“What will be vastly more important than the paint on their tailpipe will be the experiences of customers, crew and partners of American Airlines,” says Erwin. All this money and effort spent on the redesign “is likely to inflame customers and crew who are expected to endure a painfully bad service model inside those newly decked out planes. Let’s hope the identity is the launch of something bigger and more ambitious.”

The radical new livery is a clear sign of a "new" American (as the tagline AA uses in advertising of the new branding and the merger says). That livery and the new branding allow them to reset the relationship with their customers, which certainly hasn't been a happy one in recent years. But in a year's time, it won't matter whether the tail has one or two gradients to many for some people's taste. What will matter is whether AA delivers on the new Corporate Identity's promise of providing a new customer experience and acting like a different airline than before. I.e. what you see and feel when you're checking in, boarding your flight - and when you're on board.
Those aspects are what AA should focus on now if they want to succeed in the future - not yet another redesign, which would surely prompt customer and analyst comments like "Seems they have enough money after all if they can afford two redesigns and plane repaints within a year", while it would really give them very little. Other than a new mix of people loving/hating the new-new livery or tail design on a.net.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-21 15:29:36 and read 8763 times.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 158):
"We applaud our friends at American as the new brand elements and livery mark the culmination of a significant amount of work and coordination, and clearly those efforts have produced a compelling result."

Thanks for that quote.
If somebody "applauds" the new livery and brand, and calls them "compelling" it's hard to see that same person nixing them six months later at significant expense.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 156):

http://simpliflying.com/2013/a-stati...t-of-american-airlines-rebranding/

http://www.fastcodesign.com/1671677/...itself-and-america-along-with-it#1

http://www.underconsideration.com/br...ind_of_american_exceptionalism.php

EDIT:
Pay particular attention to the first link, it's an excellent analysis of the social media impact of the new branding...and the closest we'll really get to a quantifiable poll. It's an excellence source as it not only documents the activity regarding the brand, but important indicators such as "fans" and "subscribers".

Thanks for those links. Interesting reading. Also demonstrates that the branding and related social media interactions were clearly not done by amateurs. (I knew they weren't, but some members here would want you to believe that the whole thing was amateurish, even a "major management screw-up".)

They've got people's attention now - don't waste that by doing another rebrand or livery change to little effect. People have seen you can pull that sort of trick already; it gets old quite quickly. What about something a bit more substantial, now? Like WiFi on flights, a free bottle of champagne for one person on 10 randomly selected flighty every day... you know, something to capture people's imagination, engages them and makes them more likely to choose American Airlines for their next trip.

[Edited 2013-02-21 15:32:08]

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2013-03-05 08:21:45 and read 8213 times.

To throw some more fuel on the fire today...comments from Parker regarding the livery.

http://www.thestreet.com/story/11858...-merger-tip-to-us-airways-ceo.html

Quote:
Parker also said that no decision has been made on the livery for the new airline. In January, American unveiled new livery after two years of development.

"Most of our customers don't care what the outside of the airplane looks like," Parker said. "It doesn't affect their purchase decisions. (But) it's really important to employees, who care a lot about it, and I care about that."

"We'll take some time and talk to people and put that on the list of a number of things we have to figure out," he said.

Sounds like the livery is completely up for grabs still. The fairly blank canvas of the new AA scheme will allow them to tweak it pretty easily. I think the logo and text font stay the same, but the rest might get revisited. Especially if he is going to take employee feelings into consideration. This also pretty much guarantees, in my opinion, that we'll see the heritage logo get and update and more heritage aircraft appear.

Keep in mind, US Airways developed the latest livery in house...no reason they won't do it again.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: na
Posted 2013-03-05 08:30:07 and read 8117 times.

To say that customers dont care about what the plane looks like from the outside is rubbish. Thats its not decisive when buying a ticket, sure thats obvious, but thats not the same as saying they dont care.

The new livery is simple enough to be changed quickly without a full repaint. I do expect some tweaks, and maybe a slightly different tail, but largely it´ll be the new AA livery. US Airways does not possess a true traditional look that would make it important to take over into a postmerger-CI. They always had some stripes, yes, but that can already be found on the AA livery.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: william
Posted 2013-03-05 09:15:27 and read 8052 times.

From some the comments I have read from employees, they are not feeling the tail, and some have stated the silver paint is not metallic enough. Now how widespread are those feelings are up to debate. I just do not get the base gray/pseudo silver paint that suppose to reflect AA's iconic metallic look. They should have went more silver like the Jetstar paint.

http://www.airliners.net/search/phot..._id+desc&page_limit=15&thumbnails=

Notice how the Jetstar paint do not seem to fade with age, like the mica based NWA paint (similar to AA) did .

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: F9animal
Posted 2013-03-05 09:58:42 and read 7954 times.

I just want the Eagle back! Paint the plane orange for all I care! Put a big fat eagle on the fuselage!  

And please, pretty pretty please!! Keep the heritage planes, and grow them to include AA's past!!!!!

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2013-03-05 10:05:58 and read 7851 times.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 149):
Ironically, that sort of statement coming from an aviation analyst (unless you refer to the basketball player or the Denver-based drummer of the same name), seems in itself to be professionally irresponsible to me.

He's entitled to his opinions and doesn't have to always play by the rules. It always amuses me how people seem to be more sensitive towards his reactions on certain topics rather than towards the actual topic at hand. People can say what they want, but, quite frankly, 99% of the time Boyd's predictions are spot-on. I think this, in turn, harbors further resentment among the apologists who simply cannot embrace his expertise at face value.

More often than not, in the airline industry, the less popular people with the crazy ideas often wind up on top.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 149):
Clearly somebody trying to leverage his job to push something that really only concerns his own personal taste. Boyd is an aviation analyst (and/or basketball player and/or drummer), not a design/marketing professional. So what exactly is his qualification for making such a statement?

He's not trying to leverage his job. You don't have to be a design/marketing professional, as you claim, to note that the new livery is sloppy and underwhelming. There literally is ZERO logical thought process behind how the ideas came together, and he's entitled to call American out on it.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 149):
At that, he's also the only business analyst that the new AA design is "professionally irresponsible" - if he really did make that statement. I could also not find any design professionals who would agree with Boyd. Massimo Vignelli, the guy that designed the previous livery (minus the eagle, which he still thinks should not have been added) was critical of the new design - but he's not exactly unbiased.
On the other hand, Mark Kingsley, who has - uhm - some background in brand design (e.g. as lead creative for major accounts with the Landor Associates design studio) has pretty much nothing but praise for the new AA look.

If you think he's the only high-profile aviation analyst who feels this way, then you really need to pull your head out of the sand. At best, the public reaction has been lukewarm.

Moreover, you can isolate one designer who may praise the new livery, but that doesn't represent the opinions of the masses. That's an overly granular view. Is he even specialized in industry-specific branding concepts? Personally, for me, the logo is actually quite sleek and crisp, but the positioning of the flag on the tail is horrific. Putting the two concepts together of equal importance, the entire idea turns into quicksand.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: YYZbound
Posted 2013-03-05 10:53:40 and read 7781 times.

Can I just say...as an AA employee...

..of all the things that have been 'taken away'...the one thing my co-workers want to be brought back is the EAGLE??

The money's been spent already let's move on people

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: william
Posted 2013-03-05 11:05:42 and read 7712 times.

Quoting YYZbound (Reply 166):
Can I just say...as an AA employee...

..of all the things that have been 'taken away'...the one thing my co-workers want to be brought back is the EAGLE??

The money's been spent already let's move on people

What do you mean when you state bring back the EAGLE? Its on the front of the new livery, in a new stylized form.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: YYZbound
Posted 2013-03-05 11:09:30 and read 7697 times.

Quoting william (Reply 167):
What do you mean when you state bring back the EAGLE? Its on the front of the new livery, in a new stylized form.

Agreed William....and you and I know that....

(and I quite like it I might add)

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2013-03-05 20:26:55 and read 7301 times.

Quoting YYZbound (Reply 166):
..of all the things that have been 'taken away'...the one thing my co-workers want to be brought back is the EAGLE??

The money's been spent already let's move on people

The money has been spent, but it'll be Dougie's airline soon and he'll want his own look more than likely.  

I think the new logo will stick around, but I think the a/c livery is going to be pretty short lived.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: thegoldenargosy
Posted 2013-03-05 22:47:05 and read 6999 times.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 169):

Let's hope so! The designers did such a half ass job.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: AA737-823
Posted 2013-03-06 02:30:11 and read 6822 times.

Quoting william (Reply 167):
What do you mean when you state bring back the EAGLE? Its on the front of the new livery, in a new stylized form.

No he isn't. Just his beak makes an appearance.
I'd assumed that AA would follow the trend from the 1990's and go "negative-space" on the tail with the eagle (you know, like Delta, Continental, Northwest, United, etc did... 10 years ago). Instead, they dumped any form of corporate logo on the tail, came up with a picnic tablecloth that only sees the light of day on July 4, and slapped a bird beak on the nose.
Overall, I like the rebranding- even the awkward tricolor backslash with the bird beak through it.

But the TAIL is heinous.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: cosyr
Posted 2013-03-07 07:44:38 and read 6147 times.

Quoting na (Reply 162):
To say that customers dont care about what the plane looks like from the outside is rubbish. Thats its not decisive when buying a ticket, sure thats obvious, but thats not the same as saying they dont care.

I agree. They may not have thought about it 3 months ago, but when their sitting at the gate, waiting to board and looking at this thing, it affects their opinions. You see soomething that looks like a 3rd world military aircraft with paint that looks like it is fading or peeling on the tail. (Those color waves are weird, no idea what effect they were going for!) In my opinion it already looks old, very very old, like something from the 30's crop dusting days. It affects those customers perceptions of the service they will get on board, and perhaps even the safety, if they agree with me that it looks old. Then if there is any merger related friction (like there has been with other mergers and will be with this one too.) it will only strengthen their already prejudiced opinions. It may affect their next purchase decision.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 171):
No he isn't. Just his beak makes an appearance.
I'd assumed that AA would follow the trend from the 1990's and go "negative-space" on the tail with the eagle (you know, like Delta, Continental, Northwest, United, etc did... 10 years ago). Instead, they dumped any form of corporate logo on the tail, came up with a picnic tablecloth that only sees the light of day on July 4, and slapped a bird beak on the nose.

Or something like Mexicana. If people don't know their airline's heritage, they aren't going to understand the beak. If they realize it is a beak, where's the rest of the bird? Why of all things did an airline decide to identify with a beak, and not the classic air travel analogy of wings??

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: uka330
Posted 2013-03-07 08:03:57 and read 6128 times.

What about using the wave that US has on the tail and rear part of the fusalage, but paint the waves with the tail colours off the new AA? So that its not confined to the tail. Let it flow more instead of block stamped.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: deltaflyertoo
Posted 2013-03-07 10:13:11 and read 5984 times.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 169):

I think the new logo will stick around, but I think the a/c livery is going to be pretty short lived.

Agree. The new logo is boring and uninspiring, but its not sloppy or crazy looking-its the tail that just ruins everything. THey have to get rid of the tail.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: flyguy89
Posted 2013-03-07 11:49:18 and read 5897 times.

Quoting cosyr (Reply 172):
(Those color waves are weird, no idea what effect they were going for!) In my opinion it already looks old, very very old, like something from the 30's crop dusting days. It affects those customers perceptions of the service they will get on board, and perhaps even the safety, if they agree with me that it looks old.

Apparently they don't agree with your opinion though. I discussed this in another thread and while the new livery (or tail) may not strike the fancy of some here on a.net, the re-brand (including the livery) has been a great success with AA's customers/the flying public. Below is also a link I posted in another thread which statistically analyzed the very positive impact of the re-brand through customer response on social media platforms, response has been overwhelmingly positive accomplishing much heightened consumer interest and awareness of AA as well as making the brand much more relevant to consumers than before the re-brand.

http://simpliflying.com/2013/a-stati...t-of-american-airlines-rebranding/

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 161):
Quote:
Parker also said that no decision has been made on the livery for the new airline. In January, American unveiled new livery after two years of development.

"Most of our customers don't care what the outside of the airplane looks like," Parker said. "It doesn't affect their purchase decisions. (But) it's really important to employees, who care a lot about it, and I care about that."

"We'll take some time and talk to people and put that on the list of a number of things we have to figure out," he said.

Sounds like the livery is completely up for grabs still.

Very interesting find, I guess it is still up in the air then, but I can't help but think massively changing/re-branding AA's re-brand is nothing but ego-driven for Parker. There definitely is no business or economic case for it considering it's positive reception and the amount of money already spent on creating and launching it.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-03-07 12:04:35 and read 5839 times.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 175):
Very interesting find, I guess it is still up in the air then, but I can't help but think massively changing/re-branding AA's re-brand is nothing but ego-driven for Parker.

I've a different view of this. Many like the new logo, as you've stated, and given proof of, but the tail is simply ghastly. It's Horton's Tail, and simply bad design to a lot of people. Getting rid of the bad design aspect of the rebranding isn't ego-driven, it's simply good from a business sense perspective.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: william
Posted 2013-03-07 12:28:00 and read 5983 times.

Parker in essence is stating it up to the employees if they like the new livery. Well AA and soon to be AA employees, do you?

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: aerokiwi
Posted 2013-03-07 12:40:07 and read 5918 times.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 159):
Can you quantify that yourself? With something other than opinions voiced in a.net threads, that is?
Seems like selective perception on your part, to be honest.

That's my point. No one is able to quantify it. So stop claiming it's either been a success or a failure. Because you can't actually measure it, aside from anecdote and hearsay. Of course people try to through social media, which is always good for a laugh (if you've fallen for the social media-feedback loop nonsense spouted by marketing types then you'd know what I mean... and yes, I fell for it in my job, to my everlasting regret).

Quoting anfromme (Reply 159):
Other than a new mix of people loving/hating the new-new livery or tail design on a.net.

I love how you try to limit it to an Anet thing. A common tactic to dispel opposition. Except if you read the comments on these threads, supposedly by branding professionals or at least people interested in the topic, the feedback is decididely more mixed. And there are plenty of already-quoted branding professionals stating it's a dud.

So it's really just opinion versus opinion. Stop pretending you know definitively that it was a success or failure.

And at the end of the day, how it affects revenue is the most important, and really, only factor.

[Edited 2013-03-07 12:55:54]

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: flyguy89
Posted 2013-03-07 12:42:02 and read 5916 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 176):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 175):
Very interesting find, I guess it is still up in the air then, but I can't help but think massively changing/re-branding AA's re-brand is nothing but ego-driven for Parker.

I've a different view of this. Many like the new logo, as you've stated, and given proof of, but the tail is simply ghastly. It's Horton's Tail, and simply bad design to a lot of people. Getting rid of the bad design aspect of the rebranding isn't ego-driven, it's simply good from a business sense perspective.

Well changing the tail would be one thing, relatively minor and inexpensive, but scrapping AA's entire re-brand IMHO doesn't make any sense and would be confusing to consumers who just went through (and approved of) the recent launch of AA's re-branding. Consistency is extremely important in branding and multiple brand launches in such a short period of time is damaging as Delta experienced. As I said, changing the tail wouldn't be too big of a deal and could pretty much be done quietly and tastefully as long as it goes with the rest of the branding.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-03-07 13:26:40 and read 5807 times.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 179):
changing the tail wouldn't be too big of a deal and could pretty much be done quietly and tastefully as long as it goes with the rest of the branding.

Agreed, and that's all I've ever advocated. (A better grey paint could have been chosen as well, something closer to silver, but just getting that tail right would go a long way in my mind.)

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-03-07 13:48:58 and read 5833 times.

Quoting DCA2011 (Reply 90):
I just watched the two ads at the same time and muted the new American ad while playing the Delta audio. The Delta audio lines up almost perfectly with the scenes from the AA video. Try it and see, its pretty interesting to watch!

Woooooooooooooah! You weren't kidding!

Quoting 777way (Reply 107):
Not that bad.http://www.cardatabase.net/modifieda...earch/photo_search.php?id=00015567

That one looks pretty good! Maybe because the fuselage isn't that bad silver color.

Quoting cactus739 (Reply 126):
The only quibble I have with it is that there's only 12 white-grey and red stripes and really should be 13....

That and the fact that they took the stars, which are the most important part of the flag, off.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 129):
In many parts of the world 13 is considered an unluckly number (e.g. seat rows numbered 13 on many airlines, especially outside North America, and many hotels skipping 13 in floor numbers).

Yes, but when it is part of your nation's heritage, it can be looked at from a different angle IMHO.


Quoting D L X (Reply 130):
THIS is the winning line: "Colgan had sex with CSA and Cubana on a Greyhound bus in the same weekend and got pregnant. We know Colgan is the mother but we can’t tell who the father is. Nor do we care because the baby is still ugly either way."

LOL perfect description!!!!
           

Quoting CoachClass (Reply 135):
And, don't forget that there are no blue stripes on the flag; blue is the background for the 50 stars. The stars are not represented at all on the tail. So much for the Stars and Stripes.

THANK YOU   

Quoting na (Reply 162):
To say that customers dont care about what the plane looks like from the outside is rubbish.

Agreed. Maybe better wording would have been "Most customers don't care about what the outside of the aircraft look like", as you, me, and everybody here are customers as soon as we look into booking with them, and we all care about the outside. Also, some people will consider this if they have any aviation phobias. If somebody is skeptical about an airline or their quality, even if they are wrong, will see the outside of the aircraft and think "If the outside looks this bad, what will the inside be like" or "If they don't care that much about the looks, what else don't they care about?"
Or, if they like it, they might say "Wow, nice exterior, probably a nice interior". It works either way, but it still counts.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: Beardown91737
Posted 2013-03-07 15:56:48 and read 5616 times.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 175):
I can't help but think massively changing/re-branding AA's re-brand is nothing but ego-driven for Parker. There definitely is no business or economic case for it considering it's positive reception and the amount of money already spent on creating and launching it.

Why does it have to be Parker's ego? It really looks more like the rebranding rollout was a last great act of defiance by AMR.

It obviously got started as part of their strategy for emerging from CH 11 as a standalone. At some point, though, they had to know that they weren't going to go standalone, so it was their last attention grabbing move, just to make themselves feel better.

There is speculation that that Parker had input or approval before the merger. That is plausable since the rollout was so close to the announcement. If that is the case, then he still is correct to allow for changes based on the amount of negative reception.

Just for curiosity I checked the PMAA Facebook page and the new livery is getting mixed comments there as well as here, but there are no Save the Eagle groups like UA has Save the Tulip groups either.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: flyguy89
Posted 2013-03-07 18:30:24 and read 5449 times.

Quoting Beardown91737 (Reply 182):
Why does it have to be Parker's ego? It really looks more like the rebranding rollout was a last great act of defiance by AMR.

Because there's no business case for pouring a bunch of additional money into completely overhauling a brand that has already been relaunched and presented to consumers with positive reception.

Quoting Beardown91737 (Reply 182):
It obviously got started as part of their strategy for emerging from CH 11 as a standalone. At some point, though, they had to know that they weren't going to go standalone,

The re-brand started a couple years before even the bankruptcy filing, so it's long been in the works.

Quoting Beardown91737 (Reply 182):
so it was their last attention grabbing move, just to make themselves feel better.

...or it was a move that coincided with the delivery of their first 77W, a VERY significant milestone in AA's turnaround and a very common-sense time at which to overhaul the product and brand.

Quoting Beardown91737 (Reply 182):
If that is the case, then he still is correct to allow for changes based on the amount of negative reception.

If they're minor changes or tweaks such as adjusting the tail, sure, but completely overhauling the brand...again...does not convey a cogent or effective message to consumers. Negative reception? Every piece of data that I've seen on the subject matter has indicated the re-brand has been a great success, see the link to the statistical analysis I posted above.

Quoting Beardown91737 (Reply 182):

Just for curiosity I checked the PMAA Facebook page and the new livery is getting mixed comments there as well

Again, refer to the above analysis and you'll see this obviously isn't representative.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: JBo
Posted 2013-03-07 19:10:48 and read 5394 times.

Quoting 777way (Reply 107):
Not that bad.

http://www.cardatabase.net/modifieda...15567

The problem is that design wouldn't translate so well to the CR7/ERJ/MD-80 fleet. The tail-mounted engines would be right on top of the eagle beak.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-03-07 22:07:48 and read 5190 times.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 183):
Every piece of data that I've seen on the subject matter has indicated the re-brand has been a great success

"A great success" isn't a positive view of the updates to ticket counters, etc., and from the cockpit to the last exit row on the plane, followed by "what the heck did they do to that tail?!?" You and others have been given example after example of major discontent with that tail, yet you keep talking about the grand design being a success, when as a whole, it isn't. That is just plain disingenuous and misleading.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: flyguy89
Posted 2013-03-07 22:18:11 and read 5167 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 185):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 183):
Every piece of data that I've seen on the subject matter has indicated the re-brand has been a great success

"A great success" isn't a positive view of the updates to ticket counters, etc., and from the cockpit to the last exit row on the plane, followed by "what the heck did they do to that tail?!?" You and others have been given example after example of major discontent with that tail, yet you keep talking about the grand design being a success, when as a whole, it isn't. That is just plain disingenuous and misleading.

Example after example? No, you've presented anecdotal evidence at best. Show me hard numbers concerning people/customers' perception of the tail that contradict the data that I've found and then we can talk. Unless there's some comprehensive customer survey out there about the re-brand, social media statistics and interactions are the best we have to go on. Additionally, the tail is only one aspect of the brand (and a relatively minor one at that considering the design is not used in the other branding elements or the ground-level interactions customers have with American beyond looking at the tail), so just because some or even a solid vocal minority of people don't like the tail design it doesn't equate to failure of the re-brand.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-03-07 22:38:30 and read 5142 times.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 186):
Example after example? No, you've presented anecdotal evidence at best.

If you haven't been looking at the extensive amounts of negative press that the tail has received, that's actually okay with me. It's there for the reading if you wish to open yourself to it at some point in time. In the meantime, don't expect the "great success" line to be taken seriously.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: 817Dreamliiner
Posted 2013-03-07 23:28:15 and read 5089 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 187):
If you haven't been looking at the extensive amounts of negative press that the tail has received

See, your focusing too much on what the press and bloggers say instead of what the actual population says. The press only represent a handful of the population, not all of it! But your free to believe what you want...

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-03-07 23:33:51 and read 5106 times.

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 188):
See, your focusing too much on what the press and bloggers say instead of what the actual population says.

See, you didn't notice that the link posted by flyguy was to ... wait for it ... a blog!   

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: 817Dreamliiner
Posted 2013-03-07 23:47:44 and read 5082 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 189):
See, you didn't notice that the link posted by flyguy was to ... wait for it ... a blog!   

And your point is....? I never used any blogs to prove that the brand (or the tail) was well received, whether they agreed or not... But I guess since you think the press and bloggers speaks for everyone, they are the ones who's opinions matter  

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-03-08 00:08:03 and read 5045 times.

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 190):
And your point is....?

You said I was focusing too much on the press and bloggers, when the only 'hard data' which presented an alternate opinion was generated by a blog itself. You came into the middle of a discussion, so it was your responsibility to understand what you were defending or arguing.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: 817Dreamliiner
Posted 2013-03-08 00:25:07 and read 5025 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 191):

Even so, That hard data was already there before that blog post... But like I said I never used blogs anything of that sort to know the brand was well received. Whether or not you want to accept it that's your business. The point im trying to prove is that you cant always focus on what a handful of people from the press and bloggers say.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: flyguy89
Posted 2013-03-08 06:13:18 and read 4859 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 187):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 186):
Example after example? No, you've presented anecdotal evidence at best.

If you haven't been looking at the extensive amounts of negative press that the tail has received, that's actually okay with me. It's there for the reading if you wish to open yourself to it at some point in time. In the meantime, don't expect the "great success" line to be taken seriously.

On a.net? Sorry, I love a.net, but no, I'm not expecting the "great success" line to be taken seriously here, many here have no realistic concept of marketing/branding and would just as soon be happy if AA reverted to the orange lightening bolt scheme of the 50's. There would have been many on here hating the re-brand no matter what it was going to be and will continue insisting it's a failure even when metrics indicate the very opposite. Outside of a.net I've seen way more positive coverage of the re-brand than negative as well as praise from branding experts, so just because the re-brand wasn't a success for some on a.net doesn't translate into 'not a success' to the flying public, we are a small, fanatical (in a good way of course) segment of the traveling public.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-03-08 07:57:12 and read 4799 times.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 193):
On a.net? Sorry, I love a.net, but no, I'm not expecting the "great success" line to be taken seriously here, many here have no realistic concept of marketing/branding and would just as soon be happy if AA reverted to the orange lightening bolt scheme of the 50's. There would have been many on here hating the re-brand no matter what it was going to be and will continue insisting it's a failure even when metrics indicate the very opposite. Outside of a.net I've seen way more positive coverage of the re-brand than negative as well as praise from branding experts

  
Fully agree with this.
See replies 156 and 159 (by flyguy89 and myself, respectively) further up in this thread for a rough overview of the responses to the rebrand outside the bubble that a.net can be at times. These include includes some general public views, but focus on assessments by design experts. You'll find that the picture these paint is way different from the sentiment most frequently voiced on a.net

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 193):
so just because the re-brand wasn't a success for some on a.net doesn't translate into 'not a success' to the flying public, we are a small, fanatical (in a good way of course) segment of the traveling public.

Again:   

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: CIDFlyer
Posted 2013-03-10 12:09:06 and read 4262 times.

call me crazy, but Im beginning to like the new AA livery. It represents a new company being fromed by the old AA and US. Yes at first I found the tail a bit jarring but Im satrting to get used to it. Now would I have preferred to see the new stylized eagle on the tail? You bet! But with time I think most people will get used to it. I would like to see them keep the sports themed planes (Panthers, Cardinals, Steelers, Eagles) and add to it the Cowboys, Bears, Jets, Giants and Dolphins. Would be cool to see!

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2013-03-10 12:40:17 and read 4156 times.

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 195):
I would like to see them keep the sports themed planes (Panthers, Cardinals, Steelers, Eagles) and add to it the Cowboys, Bears, Jets, Giants and Dolphins. Would be cool to see!

AA is only the official airline of the Dolphins and Cowboys. B6 is the official airline of the Jets (sponsorship only - not sure who flies them), and UA is "proud to fly the Giants" AND "proud to fly the Bears" (both in sponsorship and for their travel needs).

The new AA would likely also have to forget about many other non-football sports teams. The Heat, Stars, and Mavericks would work (naturally, they all play in arenas named after AA). But DL is the official airline of all the teams that play in Madison Square Garden and the Staples Center, along with the Yankees and Mets (the NYC sponsorships are part of DL's "New York's Airline" strategy). Like the Jets, B6 is the official carrier of the Brooklyn (formerly New Jersey) Nets. And WN is the official airline of the Rangers. Last, but not least, UA is not only the official airline of all but one of the Chicago pro sports teams (that being Chicago Fire soccer, sponsored by AA), but is also "proud to fly the Dodgers".

Most of these contracts are long-term, lucrative, and tough to break - and AA's competitors have most of the PMAA hub city sports sponsorships locked up.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: hoMsar
Posted 2013-03-10 15:04:28 and read 3960 times.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 175):
Below is also a link I posted in another thread which statistically analyzed the very positive impact of the re-brand through customer response on social media platforms, response has been overwhelmingly positive accomplishing much heightened consumer interest and awareness of AA as well as making the brand much more relevant to consumers than before the re-brand.

http://simpliflying.com/2013/a-stati...t-of-american-airlines-rebranding/

I took a look at that "statistical analysis" and I must say it really doesn't say anything that I would interpret as being indicative of a successful rebrand.

He analyzed the number of "likes" and "shares" plus the number of comments posted on AA's social media pages regarding the rebrand vs. those of other topics on AA's pages, plus other airlines'.

The only thing that I really took away from the whole thing is that the rebrand generated a lot of interest and discussion, not that the reviews were positive.

Just using the number of people who commented on a post as an automatic vote in favor is being rather dishonest. In checking AA's Facebook page, for example, I saw a bunch of comments from people who liked the new look, and a bunch from people who didn't like it. While I didn't count the total number of comments for or against (and one would have to ignore anyone who commented more than once), my impression is that more comments were positive than negative, but in no way did I get the sense that the response was "overwhelmingly positive."

The Youtube video got a lot of views, but does that mean that the people who viewed it liked the livery? Of course not. Thumbs up vs. thumbs down (as I write this) is 927 vs 147, but, at best, that's a vote on the video, not the livery (a video on the PA-KL Tenerife disaster on Youtube has 743 thumbs up vs 184 thumbs down, and I don't think anyone can take that to mean there is overwhelming support in favor of plane crashes).

In summary, the only thing that statistical analysis says is that the AA rebrand generated a lot of interest. Of course it did. Do people like the rebrand? There's no clear indication one way or the other at this point.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: flyguy89
Posted 2013-03-10 21:44:12 and read 3602 times.

Quoting hoMsar (Reply 197):
He analyzed the number of "likes" and "shares" plus the number of comments posted on AA's social media pages regarding the rebrand vs. those of other topics on AA's pages, plus other airlines'.

Well I'd invite you to read it again because those weren't the only things analyzed. In addition to "likes" and "shares", they also tracked subscriptions and follows of AA, all of which also massively surged after the launch of the re-brand, and coupled with "likes" and "shares" is very indicative.

Quoting hoMsar (Reply 197):
927 vs 147, but, at best, that's a vote on the video

...a vote on a video whose subject was the re-brand, if one didn't like the re-brand, it's doubtful they would have given the re-brand video a thumbs up. And in any case, my point wasn't solely about the livery, I simply stated that the re-brand has been a success of which the livery is only a component.

Quoting hoMsar (Reply 197):
but in no way did I get the sense that the response was "overwhelmingly positive."

Again, I would invite you to re-read the report. Comments on Facebook are only one piece of the picture here. How many people do you think just saw a post about AA and made some hit-and-run comment about a bad flight they had 8 years ago? More indicative is the number of times it was shared on Facebook and the surge in "likes" of the AA page there.

Quoting hoMsar (Reply 197):
In summary, the only thing that statistical analysis says is that the AA rebrand generated a lot of interest.

Though I disagree per the points I made above, I would honestly be satisfied if that's all you took away from it as one of the essential functions of marketing and branding is to generate interest which the re-brand has done an extremely effective job of doing. Had the re-brand been a flaming failure as some on here constantly love to say, their analytics would in the negative. In summation, I'm open to debating whether or not the re-brand has been an historical success, but it definitely has not been a failure by any means.


Quoting hoMsar (Reply 197):
Do people like the rebrand? There's no clear indication one way or the other at this point.

Certainly there's no holistic poll out there asking consumers that question, but the report presented the most factual and scientific figures out there right now about the topic and it does very clearly indicate that people are liking it. What data or facts have been presented here that it's a failure? None.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: ksanCOflyer
Posted 2013-03-11 00:41:22 and read 3477 times.

Quoting 777way (Reply 6):
helvetica does not suit this new livery

But there is no Helvetica on the new livery so...

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2013-03-11 03:48:09 and read 3379 times.

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 195):
call me crazy, but Im beginning to like the new AA livery

Challenge accepted.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: 777way
Posted 2013-03-11 04:17:04 and read 3350 times.

Quoting ksanCOflyer (Reply 199):

Whatever it is, I prefer US Airways font on the new AA livery.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: mats01776
Posted 2013-03-11 04:56:53 and read 3313 times.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 198):
Though I disagree per the points I made above, I would honestly be satisfied if that's all you took away from it as one of the essential functions of marketing and branding is to generate interest which the re-brand has done an extremely effective job of doing. Had the re-brand been a flaming failure as some on here constantly love to say, their analytics would in the negative. In summation, I'm open to debating whether or not the re-brand has been an historical success, but it definitely has not been a failure by any means.


Which seems to be the essence of your argument.

To wit:

The re-brand generated lots of interests -> the re-brand was a success -> ergo, the new logo and the livery were an aesthetic success.

Kind of like bait-and-switch.

This is just my personal opinion, of course.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
Username: flyguy89
Posted 2013-03-11 08:06:23 and read 3193 times.

Quoting mats01776 (Reply 202):
The re-brand generated lots of interests -> the re-brand was a success -> ergo, the new logo and the livery were an aesthetic success.

No, I stated in my opinion that I believe the numbers not only indicate that a lot of interest was generated in the brand, but that people are liking it, the reasons for which I went into detail above.

So it's more like: The re-brand has generated a lot of interest and people are reacting very positively toward it -> the re-brand has been a success -> ergo, people must like the new livery and logo or at least find it palatable to be having such a positive reaction to the re-brand.

As I said, this is my opinion based on the figures that have been put out there and the professional critiques that have been done.


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