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Topic: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: mah4546
Posted 2013-02-06 10:31:25 and read 13377 times.

Per GDS, looks like Delta is pulling the plug on Narita-Incheon service. Last flight operates 31-May-2013; zero'd out after that. Interesting move to no longer serve Seoul intra-Asia.

[Edited 2013-02-06 10:32:03]

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: sxf24
Posted 2013-02-06 10:44:52 and read 13258 times.

What about DTW-ICN? Isn't that a flight on DL metal?

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2013-02-06 11:00:43 and read 13125 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Thread starter):

So much easier to outsource to KE. Great for everyone.....other than DL employees. (even though here any minute the normal crowd will be around to say how great it is.)

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 1):

yes.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-02-06 11:03:01 and read 13101 times.

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 1):

What about DTW-ICN? Isn't that a flight on DL metal?


Yep still on DL metal.

I think this route is served so much better with KE, especially with the A380

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-02-06 11:04:05 and read 13098 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 2):
So much easier to outsource to KE.

KE may be better at flying the route, but more importantly, it can overfly the whole NRT hub in general.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2013-02-06 11:22:18 and read 12903 times.

When you think about the options for getting to ICN, you have to wonder who is using the current NRT-ICN service and who would be impacted by this change.

NRT-ICN enables one-connection access to all of DL's NRT flights from the US. Passengers to/from ATL, MSP, JFK, DTW can all easily connect over DTW on the DTW-ICN flight.

West coast gateways, with the exception of PDX have KE flights to ICN.

NRT-ICN is a 757 flight. DL doesn't care about local traffic on this route, that is not the purpose of any of the NRT interport flying.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2013-02-06 11:23:23 and read 12900 times.

There's a lot of competition on the route. You have HND-GMP taking the high yielding local traffic, which didn't use to exist. You have a lot of NRT-ICN traffic as well.

I am amazed that UA is still on the route. They don't have that many flights from NRT any more after ending all the China services from NRT. DL has a bigger presence in terms of numbers of flights. Also UA has OZ and NH to codeshare with.

It's a single 757 route up against a lot of heavy weight competition.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2013-02-06 11:29:45 and read 12836 times.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 5):
West coast gateways, with the exception of PDX have KE flights to ICN.

PDX passengers can do PDX-SEA-ICN on KE. KE code-shares with AS/QX for this purpose.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: Widget1580
Posted 2013-02-06 12:41:47 and read 12435 times.

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 5):
NRT-ICN enables one-connection access to all of DL's NRT flights from the US. Passengers to/from ATL, MSP, JFK, DTW can all easily connect over DTW on the DTW-ICN flight.

All of which, except MSP, have non-stop service to ICN which eliminates any need for a connection.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2013-02-06 12:43:00 and read 12423 times.

Quoting Widget1580 (Reply 8):
All of which, except MSP, have non-stop service to ICN which eliminates any need for a connection.

Isn't it speculated that KE may start MSP-ICN?

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2013-02-06 13:01:02 and read 12253 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 2):
So much easier to outsource to KE. Great for everyone.....other than DL employees. (even though here any minute the normal crowd will be around to say how great it is.)

Its far better for Delta employees if Delta would stop bleeding money on NRT-ICN and carry them on DTW-ICN instead. LIke most of the NRT-Asia flying, this one has sucked for years. There is no revenue sharing with KE, so it isn't being "outsourced" it is being abandoned.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2013-02-06 13:01:29 and read 12253 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 9):
Isn't it speculated that KE may start MSP-ICN?

The rumor is out there, and internally rumors have been saying MSP may get another flight to Asia in 2014.
Obviously MSP-ICN is strongly tied to whatever may happen with a potential JV or closer partnership with KE.

Its not happening in 2013. Usually airlines don't start talking about new routes that are 12-18 months out, but in this case I think MSP-ICN is on the radar, albeit DL is already launching new routes to Asia from SEA this year and already committed to additional capacity. They don't want to add too much new capacity to quickly.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: usdcaguy
Posted 2013-02-06 13:02:40 and read 12237 times.

Quite a surprise, though I expect to see more NRT cuts from DL going forward. Any chance they would start ICN from SEA and go head-to-head against KE?

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: usxguy
Posted 2013-02-06 13:22:54 and read 12100 times.

Its also a route that is constantly delayed! I'm not sure I've seen that flight operate on time for more than 3 days in a row

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2013-02-06 14:16:54 and read 11623 times.

Quoting usxguy (Reply 13):
Its also a route that is constantly delayed! I'm not sure I've seen that flight operate on time for more than 3 days in a row

It is consistently delayed because the flight will wait for connecting passengers off of any of the flights from US-NRT. If flights from DTW, MSP, ATL, JFK, SFO, LAX, PDX, HNL are running behind they may hold the flight to accomodate connecting passengers.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: nrt1011
Posted 2013-02-06 14:45:25 and read 11326 times.

A good move. I hate to see the US-based Airlines flying intra-Asia just because of world events 60+ years ago. I am sure they are just doing it from a profitability perspective but let's leave those routes to the Japanese and Korean airlines

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: HB-IWC
Posted 2013-02-06 14:58:49 and read 11145 times.

On the topic of DL's NRT based intra Asia flights, I believe that DL may relatively soon be flying NRT CGK. With Garuda's imminent Skyteam entrance, Indonesia's record economic growth and the total lack of US service from Indonesia, than would be a most logical move.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: hoons90
Posted 2013-02-06 15:12:57 and read 10983 times.

The end of an era. Northwest started Tokyo-Seoul in 1947.

I flew the route in June 2010, Delta had good service.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: cokepopper
Posted 2013-02-06 15:36:03 and read 10713 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 2):

If anything, you are predictable.
We are gaining SEA-PVG SEA-HND and your crying that we are loosing this
flight. Look at the big picture. As Jet stated,

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 10):
ts far better for Delta employees if Delta would stop bleeding money on NRT-ICN and carry them on DTW-ICN instead. LIke most of the NRT-Asia flying, this one has sucked for years. There is no revenue sharing with KE, so it isn't being "outsourced" it is being abandoned.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: commavia
Posted 2013-02-06 15:43:05 and read 10653 times.

Frankly, it was only a matter of time. Given the realities of DL's NRT hub, and the huge KE presence in this market, there was no need for DL to continue flying NRT-ICN. There are some Asia markets - and ICN is one of them - where I think it makes better strategic sense for DL to focus flying on nonstops from U.S. hubs rather than routes through the NRT hub.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: HeeseokKoo
Posted 2013-02-06 16:04:17 and read 10447 times.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 12):
Any chance they would start ICN from SEA and go head-to-head against KE?

I would say very likely. Then DL won't miss those between west coast to ICN (assume DTW-ICN covers south/mid/east coast). DL and KE are not JV yet and in last month, DL announced a plan for adding second nonstop ICN-US by 2014. (Link: http://koreajoongangdaily.joinsmsn.c...s/article/article.aspx?aid=2963574 although some other Korean articles specifically mentioned 2014.)

KE's NRT-ICN cannot replace DL's flight, because the last one leaves NRT too early, at 5pm (for connections to the last flight bank at ICN, around 9pm).

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 6):
There's a lot of competition on the route. You have HND-GMP taking the high yielding local traffic, which didn't use to exist.

From late March, open sky between Narita-Korea will be finally in effect. KE is already planning to add one more daily flight (to 5 daily from ICN), and many LCCs will follow. In the meantime, HND-GMP covers lots of high yield traffic. According to one link,
http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...annibalisation-from-new-lccs-90656
HND-GMP capacity is now pretty much close to NRT-ICN, although the open sky (which is only to NRT) will wide the gap.

DL has been on a heavy discount event on ICN-NRT, total 200USD for a roundtrip. UA is doing the same event.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: dlramp4life
Posted 2013-02-06 16:09:25 and read 10406 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 2):
So much easier to outsource to KE. Great for everyone.....other than DL employees.

How is this bad for the employees?

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 10):
Its far better for Delta employees if Delta would stop bleeding money on NRT-ICN and carry them on DTW-ICN instead. LIke most of the NRT-Asia flying, this one has sucked for years. There is no revenue sharing with KE, so it isn't being "outsourced" it is being abandoned.

        

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2013-02-06 20:15:40 and read 8741 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 10):
There is no revenue sharing with KE, so it isn't being "outsourced" it is being abandoned.

.....Just like ATL-ICN wasn't outsourced by KE. Maybe this time KE would directly replace the capacity though.  
Quoting cokepopper (Reply 18):

If anything, you are predictable.
We are gaining SEA-PVG SEA-HND and your crying that we are loosing this
flight. Look at the big picture. As Jet stated,

How about you tell me how much you have gained over the Atlantic over the last two years....Oh sh*t....Capacity is down what 20-30%?
You look at the big picture, Delta is still getting smaller and smaller. That is going to end up bad for employees. (it already is bad if you want to move up in the company, which is damn near impossible.) If it wasn't for the 717s coming in they would probably be talking about the "f" word again.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: dlramp4life
Posted 2013-02-06 20:31:19 and read 8619 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 22):
How about you tell me how much you have gained over the Atlantic over the last two years....Oh sh*t....Capacity is down what 20-30%?

what does europe have to do with this? This is about intra asian routes. All airlines have cut capacity to Europe.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 22):
You look at the big picture, Delta is still getting smaller and smaller.

How are they getting smaller?

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 22):
That is going to end up bad for employees. (it already is bad if you want to move up in the company, which is damn near impossible.)

I beg to differ...

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-02-06 20:35:51 and read 8599 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 22):
You look at the big picture, Delta is still getting smaller and smaller. That is going to end up bad for employees.

And the profits go higher and higher. What's worse for employees.......reducing capacity and raising profits or putting that capacity back on, flying the a/c 2/3 full and losing money on them? Then what happens with the employees. Once the economy improves (someday?) here and in Europe, they may indeed increase capacity, but not now.......it would be just plain foolish.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 22):
(it already is bad if you want to move up in the company, which is damn near impossible.)

Be patient, if you are able. You haven't been there all that long. If you want it (and if your attitude improves) it will come.  

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2013-02-06 20:51:03 and read 8870 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 22):
.....Just like ATL-ICN wasn't outsourced by KE. Maybe this time KE would directly replace the capacity though.  

Once again, you have no idea what you were talking about. KE flew ATL-ICN way before DL ever did. DL added its own service. It sucked for many reasons. Delta cancelled the service quickly. KE eventually added a second frequency. There was no agreement between the carriers to do this. In fact, DL preferred that KE had not added the second one because DL wanted the connecting traffic to travel over NRT, not ICN.

There was no agreement. There is no revenue sharing. There is no "outsourcing". Calling it "outsourcing" is delusional. It implies that it was Delta's market to outsource. It was never Delta's market because Delta FAILED in it very quickly.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: context
Posted 2013-02-06 21:01:13 and read 8748 times.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 12):

Quite a surprise, though I expect to see more NRT cuts from DL going forward. Any chance they would start ICN from SEA and go head-to-head against KE?

I'm hoping they don't. Let's not forget that OZ is offering 5/weekly service on an A333 so adding another service might make this a junk-yield route. I worry that this would cause OZ to leave SEA followed by KE in a similar situation to AF's departure from SEA. I love to see DL adding service at SEA but let's just make sure it's healthy!

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-02-06 21:40:57 and read 8695 times.

I'd like to finally see a Delta/Korean JV.

DL/KE could do very much together across the Pacific and make better use of flowing traffic over the the strategic KE ICN hub while focusing away from legacy DL NRT ops.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-02-06 21:58:11 and read 8560 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 27):
I'd like to finally see a Delta/Korean JV.

I keep seeing and hearing rumors of it, but that's about all.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: rwsea
Posted 2013-02-07 00:54:20 and read 8001 times.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 16):
On the topic of DL's NRT based intra Asia flights, I believe that DL may relatively soon be flying NRT CGK. With Garuda's imminent Skyteam entrance, Indonesia's record economic growth and the total lack of US service from Indonesia, than would be a most logical move.

I think the future of DL's interport service lies in two types of destinations: those with bad yields that can't support a nonstop from the US (i.e. MNL and TPE) and those that are simply too far to serve profitably on a nonstop basis (BKK, SIN). There are a few additional destinations that fit into this mold that I think DL could be successful with:

CGK - as you mention, no current US service, and a SkyTeam hub

SGN - yes DL dropped the route, but I think they could be successful again with the right equipment. The Vietnamese economy is growing very quickly and SGN is a Skyteam hub.

KUL - yields are bad, but another growing country that should be able to support a daily 757 or 767 from NRT.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 22):

How about you tell me how much you have gained over the Atlantic over the last two years....Oh sh*t....Capacity is down what 20-30%?

Ever heard of the Euro crisis or the recession? Every airline is down. How can DL keep flying multiple daily widebodies to places like ATH and MAD that are in deep recession, over 25% unemployment? Is it "good" for DL employees to fly empty expensive planes back and forth to Southern Europe every day?

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: usdcaguy
Posted 2013-02-07 03:04:13 and read 7647 times.

Quite a surprise, though I expect to see more NRT cuts from DL going forward.

Quoting rwsea (Reply 29):
I think the future of DL's interport service lies in two types of destinations: those with bad yields that can't support a nonstop from the US (i.e. MNL and TPE) and those that are simply too far to serve profitably on a nonstop basis (BKK, SIN).

I think what you're saying makes sense, but it's hard to determine whether distance has anything to do with interport service or whether NRT's advantages as a hub over SEA/DTW/ATL is more of a reason for it. The cancellation of DTW-HKG sent the message that not every market is going to work for DL through DTW/ATL. HKG is primarily a NYC market; you can't make people get on a connecting flight out of LGA very easily if they have a choice of 4-5 nonstops out of the area on CX/UA. The lack of sizable feed in JFK and its geographical location mean that DL may need to look elsewhere to determine where it could start new service.

Although the cancellation of NRT-ICN was a smart move, I'm not sure what we have to look forward to in terms of new service from DL's existing hubs beyond what was already announced. My hunch is that DL is going to have to build SEA as a TPAC hub in order to retain share, and it's relying heavily on AS, so they don't necessarily have a lot of say in what feed they get. Meanwhile, my impression is that KE would have signed up for a JV with DL long ago if they were really interested in that. For KE, DL does not bring much to the table besides feed and frequent flyers from the US, and they can already get most of that through codesharing and interlining. KE already flies to most major business markets itself, and DL has one flight to DTW, so what more does DL add? It may be time for DL to find a way to create more organic growth and stop relying on international partners to provide service.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: davescj
Posted 2013-02-07 10:01:22 and read 5995 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 27):
I'd like to finally see a Delta/Korean JV.

DL/KE could do very much together across the Pacific and make better use of flowing traffic over the the strategic KE ICN hub while focusing away from legacy DL NRT ops.

I agree. I would like to see the JV. I think even a limited JV would make the most biz sense. Now the ICN has the non stops, it makes no sense to fly via NRT. Why create the extra stop, time to hotel/home, etc?

Quoting rwsea (Reply 29):
I think the future of DL's interport service lies in two types of destinations: those with bad yields that can't support a nonstop from the US (i.e. MNL and TPE) and those that are simply too far to serve profitably on a nonstop basis (BKK, SIN

Yes, and for this reason, DL is going to maintain a good presence at NRT.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 30):
My hunch is that DL is going to have to build SEA as a TPAC hub in order to retain share, and it's relying heavily on AS, so they don't necessarily have a lot of say in what feed they get. Meanwhile, my impression is that KE would have signed up for a JV with DL long ago if they were really interested in that. For KE, DL does not bring much to the table besides feed and frequent flyers from the US, and they can already get most of that through codesharing and interlining

I think the JV is more likely now than that past. DL has a close relationship with AF/KL/AZ. Those are relatively recent. KE might be the right choice now.

I think it makes sense to drop some of the intra-Asia flights, but others will be kept.

Sides, brings 757s to domestic routes!

Dave

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: cokepopper
Posted 2013-02-07 13:38:46 and read 5644 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 22):
You look at the big picture, Delta is still getting smaller and smaller. That is going to end up bad for employees. (it already is bad if you want to move up in the company, which is damn near impossible.) If it wasn't for the 717s coming in they would probably be talking about the "f" word again.

I don't think you'll ever "get it". SMH You knew all about the cyclical nature of this industry before
you said YES. The company is doing well, therefore ALL of us are doing well. If not you would be
on the unemployment line. That is looking at the big picture. Not what route I can/can't fly.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 22):
How about you tell me how much you have gained over the Atlantic over the last two years....Oh sh*t....Capacity is down what 20-30%?

Yes, I'm NOT flying what I was use to. But guess what? this isn't about ME. I'm looking at the BIG picture, something
you should really enlighten yourself with. If your self centered and feel it's all about you or your work group, than maybe your not a good fit for Delta.

Quoting mayor (Reply 24):
Be patient, if you are able. You haven't been there all that long. If you want it (and if your attitude improves) it will come.  

     

Quoting rwsea (Reply 29):
Ever heard of the Euro crisis or the recession? Every airline is down. How can DL keep flying multiple daily widebodies to places like ATH and MAD that are in deep recession, over 25% unemployment? Is it "good" for DL employees to fly empty expensive planes back and forth to Southern Europe every day?

     

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: huaiwei
Posted 2013-02-07 16:35:22 and read 5479 times.

Quoting nrt1011 (Reply 15):
A good move. I hate to see the US-based Airlines flying intra-Asia just because of world events 60+ years ago. I am sure they are just doing it from a profitability perspective but let's leave those routes to the Japanese and Korean airlines

100% agree on this one. We cry out in despair each time Asian-based airlines try to fly fifth-freedom on long, thin routes which are difficult to fly non-stop especially due to technical limitations, and insist ME carriers have no right to fly on routes where yields are (purportedly) low. And yet no one says a thing about this remnant of a low-yield fifth-freedom route which can be and has been served non-stop?

Quoting davescj (Reply 31):
Yes, and for this reason, DL is going to maintain a good presence at NRT.

If it was to destinations like SIN or BKK where it is almost impossible to be flying regular VLH routes, then sure, I have no issues about that. But if MNL and TPE cannot support a non-stop service profitably despite being operationally viable, than why should US carriers be handed the route via NRT at all?

And if indeed they think they have to right to serve these routes, is it fully reciprocal? Can Japanese airlines fly to any point beyond US ports?

[Edited 2013-02-07 16:37:01]

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-02-07 17:02:18 and read 5400 times.

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 33):
Can Japanese airlines fly to any point beyond US ports?

As far as the US is concerned, yes.

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 33):
If it was to destinations like SIN or BKK where it is almost impossible to be flying regular VLH routes, then sure, I have no issues about that. But if MNL and TPE cannot support a non-stop service profitably despite being operationally viable, than why should US carriers be handed the route via NRT at all?

I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean by "handed." Surely, you aren't arguing that Japan should prohibit fifth freedom flying.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: panamair
Posted 2013-02-07 23:43:32 and read 5129 times.

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 33):
Can Japanese airlines fly to any point beyond US ports?

Sure, JL used to fly JFK-GRU and full traffic rights between the two points.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: unityofsaints
Posted 2013-02-08 01:34:59 and read 5013 times.

Quoting nrt1011 (Reply 15):
just because of world events 60+ years ago.
Quoting hoons90 (Reply 17):
Northwest started Tokyo-Seoul in 1947.

Please elaborate. Was it the Americans helping the region get back on its feet or military interests?

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: HeeseokKoo
Posted 2013-02-08 03:07:05 and read 4962 times.

Quoting unityofsaints (Reply 36):
Please elaborate. Was it the Americans helping the region get back on its feet or military interests?

I searched articles but not too much information. It seems Northwest launched many Asian routes on July, 1947, and one of them was 3 weekly DC-4 flights connecting Seoul (Yeo-ui island), Tokyo, Aleutian Islands, Anchorage, Edmonton, and finally, Minneapolis. I think after WW2, this was the only regular passenger flight out of South Korea (I'm not sure this part), although there were many military charters beside that. Korean National Airline (which later became KE) resumed domestic flight in 1948, and began international flight in 1954.

Later Northwest had many direct flights at early 1990s, such as Seoul-LA, DTW, SEA, HNL, BKK, TPE, MNL, GUM, as well as Tokyo, and many of them were daily flight (can we call it a hub?). Back then, Delta had PDX, TPE, and United had SFO and ORD nonstop flights. Northwest later reduced capacity as KE and OZ began to grow.

So back to your question, Northwest essentially carried all kinds of passengers back then, both political and military purposes.

[Edited 2013-02-08 03:12:35]

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: rwsea
Posted 2013-02-08 03:15:32 and read 4969 times.

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 33):
And if indeed they think they have to right to serve these routes, is it fully reciprocal? Can Japanese airlines fly to any point beyond US ports?

Pretty much. The US is quite liberal with fifth freedom flying. Several Asian carriers fly or have flown routes to GRU from LAX/JFK/etc. (including JL, and now KE). Air New Zealand flies LAX-LHR. SQ flies from the US to Russia, Germany, Japan, Korea, and Hong Kong. Cathay flies JFK-YVR.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: mah4546
Posted 2013-02-08 09:50:32 and read 4786 times.

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 33):
And if indeed they think they have to right to serve these routes, is it fully reciprocal? Can Japanese airlines fly to any point beyond US ports?

Japanese airlines can fly from the U.S. to any third country. The only roadblock is whether or not that third country will give them the traffic rights.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: davescj
Posted 2013-02-08 09:52:19 and read 4759 times.

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 33):
If it was to destinations like SIN or BKK where it is almost impossible to be flying regular VLH routes, then sure, I have no issues about that. But if MNL and TPE cannot support a non-stop service profitably despite being operationally viable, than why should US carriers be handed the route via NRT at all?

The margins might be made up by caring a mix of pax on-going from the US and Japanese pax. In theory, I suppose, even pax going ICN-NRT- MNL/TPE for some reason.

I would guess if the route was not making enough money, DL would have already closed it down.

While I do not know, I wonder also if DL maintains the route based on contractual promises to various companies.

Dave

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: cyberual
Posted 2013-02-08 13:12:44 and read 4608 times.

That's why it was mentioned in another post that DL is closing its SEL regional f/a based as there are no intra Asian cities out of SEL these crew can fly. Wonder if they're given opportunities to transfer to other Asian ports.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: SurfandSnow
Posted 2013-02-08 21:25:31 and read 4362 times.

Hardly surprising. The yields on this must have been terrible, so much so that NH has also decided to end it. Taking ground transportation and flight times into account, it takes approximately 4 1/2 hours to travel between Tokyo and Seoul on the NRT-ICN route, while HND-GMP takes a mere 1 1/2 hours. Unlike the long haul international HND flights, the GMP services can operate during convenient daytime hours on a "scheduled charter" basis. As such, I would think they have to offer some extremely low fares to get any O&D on NRT-ICN, forcing this flight to rely on similarly low-yielding connecting traffic.

From the pax perspective, I doubt anyone will miss this flight. I doubt anyone is clamoring to hop on a ratty old DL narrowbody when they can hop on a more comfortable widebody (JL, KE, OZ, or even UA) or at the very least a fresh new LCC (Air Asia Japan or Korea's Eastar Jet). Those wishing to fly DL metal can still take their DTW-ICN flight, though I can't imagine many will complain about taking a KE codeshare that offers a superior inflight experience and nonstop convenience (from DL's U.S. NRT gateways of ATL, GUM, HNL, JFK, LAX, SEA and SFO, plus DFW, IAD, LAS and ORD). Folks in MSP and PDX can connect to said KE flights in the U.S. or still go via NRT, as I am sure DL will codeshare with their NRT-ICN flights...

With NH and DL having thrown in the towel on NRT-ICN, I wonder if UA or perhaps even JL will soon follow suit?

Also, I wonder about the future of DL's NRT hub in general. Do they still need to offer NRT-PEK and NRT-PVG now that PEK and PVG can be accessed via SEA? I would think HND-PEK/SHA flights are similarly hurting those flights, and there are also the HND-TSA/HKG flights to consider as well. Although DTW-HKG didn't work out, perhaps TPE and HKG can be effectively served via SEA, negating the need for NRT-TPE/HKG and leaving NRT to handle niche destinations like GUM, SPN, and ROR or Asian markets that simply cannot be efficiently/viably served from the mainland U.S. - BKK, MNL, and SIN. They could even add new markets like CGK, DPS, HKT, KUL, etc.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-02-09 17:20:25 and read 3982 times.

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 42):
having thrown in the towel on NRT-ICN, I wonder if UA or perhaps even JL will soon follow suit?

For UA, I dont think so at the moment.
First the flight ops with ANA as part of the JV, but UA really needs the capacity from ICN. The SFO-ICN is often booked solid way out and the NRT-ICN provides an added link to the UA network from Korea. Since UA does not have a JV with Asiana and merely a codeshare I am not too sure it wants to walk away from the seeming good business it does in Korea.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: AirAfreak
Posted 2013-02-09 22:48:40 and read 3679 times.

I wonder if DL would consider flying NRT/HND to GMP.

I've flown DTW-ICN in BizElite and really enjoyed the service, especially the meals. The Korean Meal Option was very popular on this flight as I was stuck with the Western Breakfast (quiche) upon arrival. The mid-flight snack and the soup selection on board was very tasty. I would fly DL again to ICN, but much prefer KE, of course. =]

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-02-10 12:52:18 and read 3370 times.

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 42):
Also, I wonder about the future of DL's NRT hub in general.

Over time I suspect they will follow the UA lead and further reduce intra-Asia flying.

But lets look at what they have now (I used June 2013 schedules).

NRT-BKK - A333 - Too far to reach from the US nonstop. While up and coming economy its still mostly a tourist market so not viable ULH route, so 1-stop routing will stick around for long time.

NRT-PEK - B763 - Certainly the China slot could be used for nonstop US link.

NRT-GUM/ROR/SPN - B757 - Beach markets with frequent(and very competitive) service. Not sure what "big picture" value these flights bring DL

NRT-HKG - B777 - Global city like HKG can certainly be connected nonstop to the US. Seems like DL had a hard time here with previous DTW-HKG getting pulled. Maybe a replacement SEA-HKG can be tried instead. United historically has always been stronger player in HKG compared to NW.

NRT-MNL - B744 - Big volume US market, but notorious low yield. Best served 1-stop

NRT-PVG - B763 - Like NRT-PEK, China authority could always be repurposed for US nonstop.

NRT-SIN - B777 - Strong business market, but still unlikely to make sense as a ULH nonstop when even the home carrier cant make it work. Like Bangkok, must remain 1-stop.

NRT-TPE - B744 - Taiwan can certainly support US nonstops. A bit lower yielding but maybe look at running a SEA-TPE instead. With CI in Skyteam, the NRT-TPE is duplicated.


Of course, a strong JV with Korean Air could see of the remaining services shift to ICN, or be given up entirely in favor of KE metal.

Quoting AirAfreak (Reply 44):
I wonder if DL would consider flying NRT/HND to GMP.

Its not a matter of considering - its a matter of bilateral rights.

First GMP is not open for US carriers, nor would the US side allocate one of 4 limited HND slots for a flight to a 3rd nation destination.

Anyhow if/when DL makes a JV deal with KE, it could inherit a GMP-HND service.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-10 13:16:23 and read 3309 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 45):
NRT-GUM/ROR/SPN - B757 - Beach markets with frequent (and very competitive) service. Not sure what "big picture" value these flights bring DL

Why do you consider those beach market flights by DL (and UA) any less valuable than their many other beach market flights from the mainland U.S.? Those routes have been operated for decades which leads me to believe they must be profitable. Thousands of Japanese tourists also fly DL and UA from Japan to another beach market (Hawaii) which is also a very competitive market.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: commavia
Posted 2013-02-10 13:27:09 and read 3287 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 45):
NRT-BKK - A333 - Too far to reach from the US nonstop. While up and coming economy its still mostly a tourist market so not viable ULH route, so 1-stop routing will stick around for long time.

NRT-PEK - B763 - Certainly the China slot could be used for nonstop US link.

NRT-GUM/ROR/SPN - B757 - Beach markets with frequent(and very competitive) service. Not sure what "big picture" value these flights bring DL

NRT-HKG - B777 - Global city like HKG can certainly be connected nonstop to the US. Seems like DL had a hard time here with previous DTW-HKG getting pulled. Maybe a replacement SEA-HKG can be tried instead. United historically has always been stronger player in HKG compared to NW.

NRT-MNL - B744 - Big volume US market, but notorious low yield. Best served 1-stop

NRT-PVG - B763 - Like NRT-PEK, China authority could always be repurposed for US nonstop.

NRT-SIN - B777 - Strong business market, but still unlikely to make sense as a ULH nonstop when even the home carrier cant make it work. Like Bangkok, must remain 1-stop.

NRT-TPE - B744 - Taiwan can certainly support US nonstops. A bit lower yielding but maybe look at running a SEA-TPE instead. With CI in Skyteam, the NRT-TPE is duplicated.

I generally agree with all of your assessment. I have been arguing for years that DL's long-term prospects at NRT are going to likely end up looking much like UA's: keep connections over NRT for the markets that cannot be profitably flown nonstop from the U.S. for economic and/or operational reasons, and shift everything else to nonstops from U.S. hubs/gateways. Specifically:

The four markets that I think will always remain linked via NRT because of their economics are BKK, SIN, TPE and MNL - BKK and SIN because of their distance from the U.S., and TPE and MNL because of their low yields.

For the two Mainland China markets, PEK and PVG, I could see DL simply exiting those markets from NRT altogether, as both are now linked perfectly with DL's gateways in DTW and SEA, plus are well-connected to the U.S. via ICN/KE.

HKG didn't work out of DTW, but I suspect it probably could work from SEA. Either way, I am not sure if that one will last via NRT or not - it is such a large and premium market that one would think DL could make it work from one of their U.S. gateways (despite the fact that DL's gateways are less than ideal for HKG), but if not, DL may decide to keep it via NRT.

And that just leaves the beach markets, which I suppose DL will continue to operate in - although they can't be particularly high-yielding and may suffer somewhat if (when) DL cuts back its overall presence in NRT.

Heading east from NRT, I think most of DL's nonstop U.S.-NRT schedule is safe, even as connections are inevitably drawn down over NRT. The only two U.S. gateways to NRT that I think are vulnerable long-term are SFO and PDX - SFO just because it's such a competitive market and DL is the smallest/weakest player in it, and PDX because of its size. I honestly don't think SFO will be around much longer once DL cuts out some of its beyond-NRT connections. PDX is a question market - the loss of some connectivity over NRT may hurt the PDX-NRT flight, but on the other hand, DL controls the market.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 45):
Of course, a strong JV with Korean Air could see of the remaining services shift to ICN, or be given up entirely in favor of KE metal.

  

The combination of DL flying nonstop from DTW and SEA to all the major cities of northeast Asia, plus offering connections over NRT to the major markets of southeast Asia, plus having a revenue-sharing JV with KE over the ICN hub to just about every other city of consequence in Asia, would be quite a powerhouse.

More than anything else, including NRT, a revenue-sharing JV with KE - in my view - should be the most important long-term objective for DL in Asia.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-02-10 14:00:45 and read 3186 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 46):
Why do you consider those beach market flights by DL (and UA) any less valuable than their many other beach market flights from the mainland U.S.? Those routes have been operated for decades which leads me to believe they must be profitable. Thousands of Japanese tourists also fly DL and UA from Japan to another beach market (Hawaii) which is also a very competitive market.

They are incredibly competitive markets that are sold in bulk by Japanese tour operators. US carriers like DL are disadvantaged growingly in this type of segment as the number of Japanese carriers enter the market (Star Flyer, Skymark, Jetstar). So its no longer simply US carriers versus JAL game.

Also Delta unlike United cannot leverage a long standing hub operation in Guam, so these flights end up being simply p2p package tourist express routes.

Lastly keep in mind the cost to provide these services is higher then a US-Carribean service for example.
DL must base an orphan 757 fleet in Japan for these along with providing TDY assignment to pilots, having maintenance infrastructure etc. Very different prospects then a simple US mainland flight. This type of operation is more similar to the long dead US airlines basing narrowbodies in Europe.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: toobz
Posted 2013-02-10 14:07:27 and read 3172 times.

Commavia..honestly I don't know the yields but PDX-NRT-PDX does very well load wise. Flown it many times and barely got on. Been left behind in Tokyo actually. I hope it stays!!! But with Seattle just up I-5, DL might just flow it through there with help from AS/QX.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: adamh8297
Posted 2013-02-10 14:16:07 and read 3139 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 46):
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 45):
NRT-GUM/ROR/SPN - B757 - Beach markets with frequent (and very competitive) service. Not sure what "big picture" value these flights bring DL

Why do you consider those beach market flights by DL (and UA) any less valuable than their many other beach market flights from the mainland U.S.? Those routes have been operated for decades which leads me to believe they must be profitable. Thousands of Japanese tourists also fly DL and UA from Japan to another beach market (Hawaii) which is also a very competitive market.

ROR is not the easiest nor the cheapest to get to. Its not that competitive when you only have Air Mike with the only true daily service to Palau.

DL made a great move starting NRT-ROR. It pretty much guarantees 2-stop service from the entire US. The tourists who desire to go to ROR will have no problem doing 2-stops.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-02-10 14:23:55 and read 3123 times.

Alright i'm going to go through these and use what I know about Japanese markets and Delta to see what I can come up with:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 45):
NRT-PEK - B763 - Certainly the China slot could be used for nonstop US link.

Agreed. A 777 from SEA can make this work without any issues. Can a 763 fly non-stop PEK-LAX? Also isn't this route non-stop from DTW? Should this route start to wane a bit I see it being slashed and maybe the 763 coming back to SLC.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 45):
NRT-MNL - B744 - Big volume US market, but notorious low yield. Best served 1-stop

Big local market too. Besides the islands, the Japanese love going to the Philippines for business or leisure. I don't see this getting cut. As you said the yield is too low and it's not good enough for it to be on one stop. Note that DL operates a flight DTW-NGO-MNL as well, under these same circumstances.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 45):
NRT-HKG - B777 - Global city like HKG can certainly be connected nonstop to the US. Seems like DL had a hard time here with previous DTW-HKG getting pulled. Maybe a replacement SEA-HKG can be tried instead. United historically has always been stronger player in HKG compared to NW.

When NW and DL merged I think it gave more wind in UA's sails to beef-up the competition on USA-HKG routes. Since UA offers intra-Asia routes here by UA I also see that it would be best served non-stop from the US, maybe LAX or SEA as you mentioned.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 45):
NRT-SIN - B777 - Strong business market, but still unlikely to make sense as a ULH nonstop when even the home carrier cant make it work. Like Bangkok, must remain 1-stop.

I doubt any airline will ever try making SIN-USA happen again non-stop in the near-term, although I'm sure a 77L could operate this. Most of the business anyway operated on this flight is NRT-SIN.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 45):
NRT-TPE - B744 - Taiwan can certainly support US nonstops. A bit lower yielding but maybe look at running a SEA-TPE instead. With CI in Skyteam, the NRT-TPE is duplicated.

Agreed on SEA-TPE but is DL really willing to beef up the international flying out of SEA? I see the HND route as a plus to this but I'm not sure if it would be a good Idea or not. Then again with AS I surely don't see why not.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 45):
NRT-GUM/ROR/SPN - B757 - Beach markets with frequent(and very competitive) service. Not sure what "big picture" value these flights bring DL

DL operates probably the most competitive service with these routes. These flights, especially to GUM, are huge Japanese tourist routes, and if DL backs out, then other airlines will surely fill the void. Japanese people love competition and sales, and I think one of my buddies took advantage of a fare sale DL offered for a trip to GUM with his wife earlier in 2012. These routes are staying, but I don't see why a GUM-HNL flight isn't offered.


Side note- How do the Intra-Asia 757s get back to the USA?

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-02-10 14:47:37 and read 3061 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 51):
When NW and DL merged I think it gave more wind in UA's sails to beef-up the competition on USA-HKG routes. Since UA offers intra-Asia routes here by UA I also see that it would be best served non-stop from the US

Yes never quite put a finger on it why DL (and NW) have been so troubled in HKG.

I could see how a smaller market like Singapore be a challenge for DL as its a competitor alliance hub, but Hong Kong is such a major global market with strong traffic links back to the US there should be plenty of demand to go all around.

But that DL has only been able to support a single 1-stop service via NRT, while UA manages 7 flights (4 of them nonstop to the US) baffles me.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 51):
Side note- How do the Intra-Asia 757s get back to the USA?

Ferry

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-02-10 15:08:35 and read 3018 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 52):
Ferry

That doesn't seem economical at all to me..... if they needed access back to the states couldn't they do a NRT-GUM-HNL routing with pax on board?

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 52):
But that DL has only been able to support a single 1-stop service via NRT, while UA manages 7 flights (4 of them nonstop to the US) baffles me.
http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...states-southeast-asia-market-62732
You know what that surprises me now as well. Looking at the article above from 2011 it shows an apparent weakening demand from HKG to points onward....remember, UA cut the SGN flight from HKG last year.

I think this, in general, is why DL is cutting down some flights out of NRT, and why people are surprised HKG is doing so well- other airlines are filling the demand that DL and UA apparently filled pretty well in the past.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2013-02-10 15:44:51 and read 2952 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 45):
NRT-GUM/ROR/SPN - B757 - Beach markets with frequent(and very competitive) service. Not sure what "big picture" value these flights bring DL

In actuality, the Japan-Beach markets are some of the best international markets in the system. This exactly WHY Delta keeps them when it seems like they matter so little in the scheme of things.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: deltairlines
Posted 2013-02-10 16:00:13 and read 2911 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 54):
In actuality, the Japan-Beach markets are some of the best international markets in the system. This exactly WHY Delta keeps them when it seems like they matter so little in the scheme of things.

So much so that I wouldn't be shocked to see the ICN slot at Narita be used to add another frequency to one of these beach markets.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: SR117
Posted 2013-02-10 16:04:24 and read 2891 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 54):
In actuality, the Japan-Beach markets are some of the best international markets in the system. This exactly WHY Delta keeps them when it seems like they matter so little in the scheme of things.

The super strong yen had some say in the good performance of the Japan-Guam/Honolulu flights. Let's hope the weaker yen doesn't hurt them too much.

Many of these flights are often booked full months in advance thanks to the big tour operators, so it can't be all that bad. And the new 25/200 seat 767 should provide a more proper yield mix.

Sad to see ICN-NRT go, but it sounded very expensive to fly in a 757 to ICN and have it over 12 hours on the ground for just one rotation. I'd expect a second US-ICN flight from DL in the future as I doubt they're too eager to give up all West Coast-ICN traffic over to KE without a joint venture.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: adamh8297
Posted 2013-02-10 16:20:50 and read 2841 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 52):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 51):
Side note- How do the Intra-Asia 757s get back to the USA?

Ferry

ANC?

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-02-10 16:24:40 and read 2848 times.

Quoting SR117 (Reply 56):
Sad to see ICN-NRT go, but it sounded very expensive to fly in a 757 to ICN and have it over 12 hours on the ground for just one rotation.

Was it a 757? I thought it was a 330 from NRT to ICN.

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 57):
ANC?

DL doesn't have a flight from NRT to ANC so I'm assuming that's the ferry route back to the states.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: steex
Posted 2013-02-10 16:29:10 and read 2843 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 58):
Was it a 757? I thought it was a 330 from NRT to ICN.

It has been a 757 for a while now, but had been a 330 previously. I flew ICN-NRT on the 757 a few months ago, don't think I'll have another chance to catch the route on DL!

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 58):
DL doesn't have a flight from NRT to ANC so I'm assuming that's the ferry route back to the states.

Correct, though occasionally winds permit the eastbound to fly non-stop NRT-SEA. They drew some attention for actually scheduling and selling a one-time NRT-SEA pax flight on a repositioning 757, but they ultimately ended up canceling it and accommodating the pax on other flights.

Topic: RE: Delta Ending NRT-ICN
Username: hoons90
Posted 2013-02-10 22:04:24 and read 2619 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 58):
Was it a 757? I thought it was a 330 from NRT to ICN.

When NW was operating it:

747-200 up until early 2003
747-400 for the remainder of 2003
DC-10-30 for the first half of 2004
A330-200 from August 2004 to 2008 around the time of the merger (NRT-ICN was the first ever NW A332 route, started August 1, 2004)
A330-300 subbed in from time to time alongside A330-200 during that period as well

After the merger:

757-200 from 2008 to Feb 2010
A330-200 in Feb 2010
757-200 from Mar 2010 to June 2010
757-200 (4x weekly), A330-300 (2x weekly), 767-300ER (1x weekly) from June 2010 to the end of August 2010 (this is the last time DL has used a widebody on NRT-ICN
757-200 only from Sep 2010

My flights in June 2010 on that route were on N807NW and N816NW.


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