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Topic: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-02-07 04:01:59 and read 43089 times.

Air Canada will introduce a 458-seater Boeing 777-300ER aircraft on the Montreal - Paris CDG route from July 11. The firm also announces a new Executive First Class Seating as well as the introduction of Premium Economy Class. The cabin configuration will be C36 W24 Y398 and economy class will be a 3-4-3 layout.

AC870 YUL2055 – 0945+1CDG 77W D
AC871 CDG1330 – 1450YUL 77W D

http://airlineroute.net/2013/02/07/ac-77w-jul13/



More information on the cabin can be found at http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/fleet/77W.html

Always nice to see a high density 77W  

[Edited 2013-02-07 04:22:02]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: Polot
Posted 2013-02-07 04:10:44 and read 43095 times.

What seats do that have in business class since they are not using the herringbone seat found in the rest of their 777 fleet?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: jfk777
Posted 2013-02-07 04:11:26 and read 43063 times.

what type of J class seat is AC using now ?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: travelavnut
Posted 2013-02-07 04:13:13 and read 43019 times.

It looks like the window seats on row 59 get a bit more legroom, is this correct?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: leftyboarder
Posted 2013-02-07 04:20:26 and read 42911 times.

Another cattle car... That seems very tight. I guess they are taking a page from AF's book?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: parapente
Posted 2013-02-07 04:21:04 and read 42911 times.

I once wrote on this with regard to the best economy flight I ever had was a brand new AC 773 to Toronto out of Heathrow.9 across seats (must have been 19-20 in seats) good legroom etc etc. I guess this move is simply a sign of the times.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2013-02-07 04:28:13 and read 42751 times.

Is the whole fleet being re-fitted or just specific aircraft?
Or am I just rambling utter tripe (again?) and this is one of the newbies?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: QF15
Posted 2013-02-07 04:28:40 and read 42753 times.

Wow! That looks very crowded.
Anyone have seat numbers on the highest density 77W flying these days and what airline?? ..this would have to be close to it I'd imagine.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: leftyboarder
Posted 2013-02-07 04:33:19 and read 42695 times.

Quoting QF15 (Reply 7):
Anyone have seat numbers on the highest density 77W flying these days and what airline?? ..this would have to be close to it I'd imagine.

AF has 472 seats for flights to old colonies and territories, I think. EK has 427 on two class A/C.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-02-07 04:37:38 and read 42643 times.

Quoting QF15 (Reply 7):
nyone have seat numbers on the highest density 77W flying these days and what airline?? ..this would have to be close to it I'd imagine.

The KLM 77W's have 425 seats.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ba319-131
Posted 2013-02-07 05:05:14 and read 42304 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 6):
Is the whole fleet being re-fitted or just specific aircraft?

- That is a good question.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 6):
this is one of the newbies?

- Yes, this is one of 5 new builds due this and next year.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: Hawaiian763
Posted 2013-02-07 05:08:58 and read 42276 times.

I remember flying the 77W with AC on the CDG-YUL route, it was one of the most comfortable flights I've ever had with AC in economy class. The introduction of Premium Economy would be a very attractive option for me, especially for the additional legroom. I'm sort of thinking it's like United's Economy Plus, but with a few more benefits.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: CXB77L
Posted 2013-02-07 05:18:39 and read 42158 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
Always nice to see a high density 77W

In a way, yes it is. I've often argued that there is a case for the 777-9X precisely because there are airlines fitting more and more seats onto the 777-300ER. The larger size of the 777-9X will be extremely attractive to such airlines. The fact that more and more airlines are putting 400+ seats on a 777-300ER is an indication that a larger 777 is needed.

Quoting parapente (Reply 5):
I guess this move is simply a sign of the times.

Indeed it is, although it is unfortunate for the traveller. A lot of aircraft have started its service life with a lower density configuration than it ends with. The original 747s were 9 across in economy, but now 10 across is standard. Likewise the 777. Smaller widebodies such as the DC10 and the L-1011 have also been equipped with more seats per row later on in its service life to minimise the per seat costs as fuel prices gradually get higher and higher.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-07 05:21:08 and read 42138 times.

Meh. AC was starting to lose me. This seals the deal. I just know AC will roll this out fleet wide. Less privacy in J. Cramped 10 abreast in Y. What reason is there to take AC anymore? 24 Y+ is a pittance and knowing AC they'll charge 2x Y for those.

Heck, at least other airlines that offer such cramped cabins participate in the Amex platinum airline program. Not AC.

Here's hoping Westjet grows and officially becomes a Oneworld member.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: AirCanada787
Posted 2013-02-07 05:29:10 and read 42042 times.

Quoting Polot (Reply 1):

What seats do that have in business class since they are not using the herringbone seat found in the rest of their 777 fleet?

They are launching a new Executive Class seat which is mentioned on the Air Canada website here:

Posted 2013-02-07 05:38:37 and read 41887 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 13):
Heck, at least other airlines that offer such cramped cabins participate in the Amex platinum airline program. Not AC.

They do, actually.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: behramjee
Posted 2013-02-07 06:08:04 and read 41587 times.

this is how you can make good money on long haul VFR (ethnic) routes operated with B777-300ERs by having a ultra high density configuration perfectly suited to the market demographic hence reducing your operating cost per seat unit.

Routes ideally suited to such a configuration include YUL-CMN (3 weekly), DEL (4 weekly), YVR-MNL (4 weekly), HKG (daily) and Canada-China

New configuration is 36 business class (flat beds) + 24 premium economy and 398 economy class with economy seats losing one-inch of legroom from the existing fleet at 31-inches due to their “slimline” leather seats.

Am surprised (in a good way) that they managed to squeeze in more seats on a B77W than Emirates does in a 2 class configuration ! With this layout, Air Canada thus becomes the airline with the second highest seat count for a legacy carrier operating long haul flights using a B77W as # 1 is Air France (Caribbean/BKK flights layout) which has 478 seats on board its B77Ws.

To give you an idea on how big certain long haul markets are from Canada, the list is below for 2012:

YYZ-HKG 293,000 pax
YYZ-DEL 176,000 pax
YYZ-LHR 392,000 pax
YYZ-CDG 198,000 pax
YYZ-PEK 182,000 pax
YYZ-PVG 121,000 pax
YYZ-MNL 143,000 pax
YYZ-FCO 181,000 pax
YYZ-ICN 100,000 pax

YVR-PEK 135,000 pax
YVR-DEL 142,000 pax
YVR-MNL 88,000 pax
YVR-LHR 232,000 pax
YVR-HKG 283,000 pax
YVR-PVG 155,000 pax
YVR-ICN 130,000 pax
YVR-NRT 110,000 pax

YUL-CDG 503,000 pax
YUL-LHR 129,000 pax
YUL-CMN 94,000 pax

[Edited 2013-02-07 06:16:41]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: peterinlisbon
Posted 2013-02-07 06:09:12 and read 41570 times.

I don't think it really makes much difference to the average economy passenger how many passengers there are in the plane in total. If you are sitting in economy at the back of the plane, it doesn't matter to you whether the front has first, business class or more economy. And if you are sitting at the front in business or first class, it doesn't matter to you how many people are sitting behind the curtain behind you. You may not even see them or hear them, any you'll get off before them all anyway.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: swallow
Posted 2013-02-07 06:25:56 and read 41386 times.

Hmmm... EK gets lots of stick for its 3-4-3 layout in Y, but more and more airlines are adopting it

AC joins the cramped club which includes AA, CZ, KL, EK, EY, AF, KQ, NZ, 9W........

Soon enough, 9-abreast in coach will be the exception rather than the rule

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: airceo
Posted 2013-02-07 06:36:46 and read 41196 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 13):
Here's hoping Westjet grows and officially becomes a Oneworld member.

All indications are that they're happy to stick to their knitting and stay within the continent only for the foreseeable future. That said I would love to see a second big international player sporting the maple leaf.

Quoting ytz (Reply 13):

24 Y+ is a pittance and knowing AC they'll charge 2x Y for those.

I'll hold of judging for now I fear you may be right.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 16):

this is how you can make good money on long haul VFR (ethnic) routes operated with B777-300ERs by having a ultra high density configuration perfectly suited to the market demographic hence reducing your operating cost per seat unit.

I'm not so sure... Just because it works for some carriers doesn't mean it will for all carriers. I realize this has worked very well for EK, but AC is not EK. Sitting 10 abreast from DXB to India is one thing, sitting 10 abreast from YYZ to India is quit another. I also worry that high yield premium pax will not like the more compact cabin and will look elsewhere.

@airceo

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: chrisa330
Posted 2013-02-07 06:37:44 and read 41217 times.

The J class seat being introduced on these 5 new B77W are interim. AC will be launching a fully redesigned J class seat with the introduction of the 787s in 2014.

The J class seat on the high density 77W is the same as those found on SWISS and brussels airlines.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: chrisa330
Posted 2013-02-07 06:41:12 and read 41150 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 13):
24 Y+ is a pittance and knowing AC they'll charge 2x Y for those.

Looks like they're charging almost twice the lowest Y fare available (Tango).

YUL-CDG has Tango as $530/direction, Y+ is $969. For comparison, the J fare is $1910.

Not at bad as I thought it would have been.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: behramjee
Posted 2013-02-07 06:48:50 and read 41030 times.

Quoting airceo (Reply 19):
I'm not so sure... Just because it works for some carriers doesn't mean it will for all carriers. I realize this has worked very well for EK, but AC is not EK. Sitting 10 abreast from DXB to India is one thing, sitting 10 abreast from YYZ to India is quit another. I also worry that high yield premium pax will not like the more compact cabin and will look elsewhere.

many airlines worldwide now have 10 abreast in Y class on board their B77W fleet of which EK was the pioneer of. These include Etihad, Air France, KLM, Jet Airways, TAM Brazil and now Air Canada.

VFR pax who use these carriers have no problem sitting in this arrangement for long haul flights as you see 1000s everyday flying EK to USA/Australia/GRU etc via DXB + KLM via AMS !

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: jetboytwa
Posted 2013-02-07 06:57:51 and read 40914 times.

The seats appear to be the Thompson Vantage found on Swiss, Finnair, Delta, etc.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-02-07 07:04:39 and read 40823 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
C36 W24 Y398

It always amazes me how few Y+ seats will be in any cabin. It shows how few people are willing to pay for comfort. I understand J/C is often too pricey, but this shows that only 6% of Y passengers are willing to pay for comfort.  
Quoting CXB77L (Reply 12):
The fact that more and more airlines are putting 400+ seats on a 777-300ER is an indication that a larger 777 is needed.
Quoting CXB77L (Reply 12):
Indeed it is, although it is unfortunate for the traveller.

Why is it unfortunate they are being provided the product they wish to pay for. If someone wants more comfort, there is Y+/W. Or even the C seats. The reality is that AC must compete with bargain fairs to CDG and now they have a configuration to make money.

Everyone demands more comfort... then they go online and book the cheapest fair.

Quoting ytz (Reply 13):
24 Y+ is a pittance and knowing AC they'll charge 2x Y for those.

1.5X just breaks even on the floor real-estate. Since Y+ will have a lower load factor, 2X is very reasonable. Aircraft real estate is expensive. Since few (if any) will pay more for 9 across Y in a 777, the market is moving to 10 across Y and offering Y+/W for those who care enough to pay for space.

Considering how cheap flights are versus 30 years ago... I'm not complaining. Pick your seat and enjoy!   

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: AirbusA6
Posted 2013-02-07 07:09:44 and read 42278 times.

The answer to this is to search out A380 flights, and then enjoy the extra shoulder room from having an identical 10Y layout on a much wider plane  

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: thenoflyzone
Posted 2013-02-07 07:24:30 and read 41926 times.

So YUL-CDG gets a 30% seat increase......!

This new J class product looks good. Same 180% lie-flat recline, same seat length (longer in lie-flat mode), Only half an inch less wide. AVOD is 3 in wider. All in all, Not too bad, even if just interim. One would think the new ones coming online in 2014 with the 787s will be even better !

As for 10 abreast in Y, i've done JFK-DXB-MLE-DXB-JFK in that config with EK, and it's not too bad (and i'm 6 foot, 210 lbs). I've done it with AF as well on YUL-CDG-YUL. I guess most majors will eventually get there on their B77Ws. Just a matter of time. Average Joe wont even notice.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2013-02-07 07:33:21]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-02-07 07:37:19 and read 42210 times.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 26):
This new J class product looks good.

I understand that the re-design of the J product was in response to passenger suggestion. While the herringbone arrangement was state-of-the-art 10 years ago, it is dated now, with better options.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 26):
I guess most majors will eventually get there on their B77Ws.

As sad as I am to see this trend, I have to grudgingly admit, it IS the future. While by percentage, currently flying 9-abreast B777s outnumber 10-abreast B777s, the fact is on new build B777s, the ratio is 5:1 for 10 vs. 9 abreast configurations.

It really becomes a matter of when, not if, currently flying B777s are re-configured. And ... each airline has to assess if it can attract a "premium" in fare by remaining at 9 abreast, as otherwise it will be at an economic disadvantage. To date, only very very few airlines have been able to do this, and even that is changing.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2013-02-07 07:42:16 and read 42117 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 27):
To date, only very very few airlines have been able to do this, and even that is changing.

   Witness NZ, which is a 4 star airline with longhaul routes. The 77Ws being delivered are 10 abreast Y. They're not even trying to get a premium on their 9 abreast 77Es.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: intermodal64
Posted 2013-02-07 07:59:51 and read 41264 times.

Quoting swallow (Reply 18):
I don't think it really makes much difference to the average economy passenger how many passengers there are in the plane in total. If you are sitting in economy at the back of the plane, it doesn't matter to you whether the front has first, business class or more economy. And if you are sitting at the front in business or first class, it doesn't matter to you how many people are sitting behind the curtain behind you. You may not even see them or hear them, any you'll get off before them all anyway.

It sort of does make a difference when you get to baggage claim, and it takes an hour to retrieve your luggage. This is one reason I prefer smaller aircraft in general.

It looks like their strategy is to make economy class so unbearable that business travelers will simply refuse to fly if their companies won't pay for some kind of an upgrade.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: Hawaiian763
Posted 2013-02-07 08:18:42 and read 40636 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 13):
Here's hoping Westjet grows and officially becomes a Oneworld member.

WestJet growing yes, joining Oneworld, wouldn't be too happy about that. I would be more happy if they stayed on the course that they are on right now and not join an alliance. I am curious to see how their plans to also roll out a Premium Economy product will play out

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-02-07 08:26:07 and read 40347 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 27):
To date, only very very few airlines have been able to do this, and even that is changing.

I don't think any carrier is getting a "premium" on a 9 across, so much as estimating that the cost to refit a frame into 10-across is higher than the incremental revenue they'd get.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 28):
They're not even trying to get a premium on their 9 abreast 77Es.

There's none to be had.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: rbgso
Posted 2013-02-07 08:30:02 and read 40239 times.

Using one jetbridge I imagine this thing would take forever to unload! If you're in the last row you'd have time to watch a sitcom before you exit.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-07 08:35:12 and read 40045 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 15):
They do, actually.

You're thinking of Aeroplan Platinum. Not American Express Platinum.

https://www298.americanexpress.com/platinum/secure/ca/en/benefit.do?method=loadBenefit&benefitID=tcm:589-224949

That gets you companion tickets on several major carriers for long-haul flights, in J or F. AC does not participate in this program.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 16):
this is how you can make good money on long haul VFR (ethnic) routes operated with B777-300ERs by having a ultra high density configuration perfectly suited to the market demographic hence reducing your operating cost per seat unit.

Sadly, this is true. I guess now AC may finally be able to serve places like India directly. Or maybe they're holding out for the 350 pax 787-9 before they serve DEL.

Quoting airceo (Reply 19):
I'll hold of judging for now I fear you may be right.

It's AC. One should never hold out hope they won't disappoint. They've done innovative things in the past to be sure. But I have no confidence in AC today being anything more than another carrier engaged in the race to the bottom.

Quoting airceo (Reply 19):
Sitting 10 abreast from DXB to India is one thing, sitting 10 abreast from
Quoting airceo (Reply 19):
I also worry that high yield premium pax will not like the more compact cabin and will look elsewhere.

This also. Like I said, I fail to see what AC offers at this point. You get better cabins flying an Asian carrier. You often get better service flying a European carrier. And most of those are often more competitively priced too. The only people regular filling J on AC these days are probably Canadians who want to maintain status at domestic/north american travel as well.

Quoting chrisa330 (Reply 21):
Not at bad as I thought it would have been.
TK gives me a return ticket from BOM via IST, with Y+ on the 10 hr IST leg and Y on IST-BOM legs for about $1800. And TK's Y+ offering will still be substantially better than what AC apparently has on offer. Nearly $2000 on a return Y+ fare from YUL to CDG? That's horrendous.

The only people who say this is reasonable are those who think AC's base fares are reasonable to begin with.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 22):
VFR pax who use these carriers have no problem sitting in this arrangement for long haul flights as you see 1000s everyday flying EK to USA/Australia/GRU etc via DXB + KLM via AMS !
EK sends A380s to Toronto. 18" wide seats, even though they are 10-abreast. And with the amount of A380s EK has on order, you can bet that most markets more than 10 hours from DXB will get A380 service. Meanwhile, AC will pack you on a 17" seat in Y and then transfer you to another *A carrier likely to do the same as well.

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 25):
The answer to this is to search out A380 flights, and then enjoy the extra shoulder room from having an identical 10Y layout on a much wider plane

Bingo. I predict that lots of transfer pax/VFR will try out AC's service initially and then run back to EK. At least for South Asia. But maybe it'll help AC compete for Europe bound tourists.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 27):
It really becomes a matter of when, not if, currently flying B777s are re-configured.

Exactly.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 27):
And ... each airline has to assess if it can attract a "premium" in fare by remaining at 9 abreast, as otherwise it will be at an economic disadvantage. To date, only very very few airlines have been able to do this, and even that is changing.


I agree. But what saddens me is the extremely limited Y+ cabin. It's almost like AC is mostly targeting the upgraders rather than actually hoping to sell Y+ seats. And it also sucks that in addition to going 10-abreast, they dropped the pitch by 1". I'd be far less hostile if they had kept the 32" pitch.

Sign of the times, I guess.

How will the public know whether it's a 2-class or 3-class bird? Is it just by the availability of Y+ when booking?

[Edited 2013-02-07 08:39:10]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: na
Posted 2013-02-07 08:37:16 and read 40072 times.

Surely a plane to avoided in Eco. The 777 seems perfectly suited to become a sardine can. A trend thats getting worse.

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 25):
The answer to this is to search out A380 flights, and then enjoy the extra shoulder room from having an identical 10Y layout on a much wider plane  

Absolutely.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: JAAlbert
Posted 2013-02-07 08:41:20 and read 39863 times.

Wow that's a lot of folks on one flight. How many cabin crew are required to handle 458 passengers?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-07 08:41:25 and read 39884 times.

One more concern. Number of washrooms. Imagine the lineups and the ummm comfort level....

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: chrisa330
Posted 2013-02-07 08:43:45 and read 39780 times.

Can anyone comment on what impact to range a capacity increase like this would have? Wondering if this change still allows for these aircraft to fly Asia routes.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-07 08:47:49 and read 39810 times.

Quoting na (Reply 34):
The 777 seems perfectly suited to become a sardine can. A trend thats getting worse.

Not just the 777. The 787 has hit sardine can status just after launch. I loved the idea of the 787. But in the future, I'll look for carriers operating A350s. If travelling in Y, you know you'll get an 18" wide seat. Thankfully, Airbus didn't make it possible for the airlines to go 10-abreast.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: PW100
Posted 2013-02-07 08:51:42 and read 39664 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
Air Canada will introduce a 458-seater Boeing 777-300ER aircraft on the Montreal - Paris CDG route from July 11

Holy crap, and hyere I was, thinking KLM's 425 was tight!!

Question: will AC now consider this to be a VLA . . .      

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2013-02-07 08:55:01 and read 39493 times.

Having flown on a ten abreast Emirates model, I realised that unless you're, well shall we actually say fat, it's fine.
For an economy product, for what we pay, it's perfectly acceptable, for those who want more, pay more.

But so very few will pay out of their own pockets if course.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: 777ER
Posted 2013-02-07 08:57:22 and read 39416 times.

Quoting Hawaiian763 (Reply 11):

When I fly long haul my first choice is Y+ which is why NZ currently gets all my business from AKL. If the AC Y+ cabin works out cheaper via SYD and YVR to North America with a good offering then AC could very well be getting my North American business. Plus its a good way to try the B772LR also  
Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 28):

Sadly NZs B772 Y cabins are also going the way of the B77W Y cabin but thankfully the Y+ cabin is getting a change

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-07 08:59:08 and read 39250 times.

Quoting chrisa330 (Reply 37):
Can anyone comment on what impact to range a capacity increase like this would have? Wondering if this change still allows for these aircraft to fly Asia routes.

109 more pax? Should reduce payload by 30 000 lbs. Range can stay the same at a reduced payload. Or they pack up the plane to the gills and only have enough gas to get to Europe.

I am willing to bet that AC will retrofit all the 77Ws. In this configuration, at max payload (or close to it), AC would probably still be able to reach IST, GRU and GIG from YYZ and ICN, NRT, PVG, and PEK from YVR. And that's assuming near to max payloads. For less, AC could go further.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: chrisa330
Posted 2013-02-07 09:13:05 and read 38752 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 42):
I am willing to bet that AC will retrofit all the 77Ws.

I agree that they'll at some point retrofit Y class to 10 abreast as well as introduce Y+ across the whole 777 fleet. I wouldn't be surprised if they have two seperate J class configs, with one more premium heavy than the other.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: Arrow
Posted 2013-02-07 09:18:49 and read 38653 times.

This is why I now look for long haul f;lights using A330,A340,767 as equipment. With the 2-3-2 or 2-4-2 seating I can get into those window/aisle seats and not worry if the pitch is a little cramped because I only have to climb over my wife to get out. I've done a few ANZ flights in their 777s, and the long hauls are 3-3-3 which is bearable. But they also have 3-4-3 layouts on their AKL-Australia 777 flights -- which are bearable only because they are mostly under 5 hours.


This sardine can trend is very worrisome. I'd cheerfully pay more for a little extra space. Anything over 10 hours is torture.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: rampbro
Posted 2013-02-07 09:30:08 and read 38183 times.

I was under the impression that AC was going to get Rouge to do this kind of flying? Or are they are going after the CDG CNXs (M-E, Africa), for which there is a strong market ex-YUL?

I wonder what the O&D/CNX ratio is like on that YUL-CDG time slot.

Strange move.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2013-02-07 09:36:21 and read 38034 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 40):

The key point in that statement is "for what you pay". Any Canadian resident who's travelled on an itinerary not originating in Canada (that they themselves have paid for) will know that the value-for-money proposition involving flights originating in Canada is amongst the worst, if not the worst, in the world.

There is a massive difference between the value-for-money between different carriers. To put it in perspective:

YUL-CDG in AC Y: $1100 round trip, 50% miles, mediocre catering, 31" legroom, 3-4-3 6884 miles

LHR-DEL in 9W Y: $900 round trip, 100% miles, good catering, 32" legroom, 3-4-3 8200 miles

Two similar products with different value for money propositions.

Take Y+. In theory, I belong to the crowd that will spend a little bit extra to fly Y+. In theory. Outside Canada, I actually put it into practice (just had a pleasant experience with VS a month ago). The same reason applies:

YUL-CDG: ~$1900 rt, 2-4-2, 6884 miles (priority baggage, extra miles, dedicated check-in?)

LHR-DEL (VS): ~$1600, 2-3-2, 8200 miles, priority baggage, dedicated check in, 125% miles, priority boarding.

Even if they're identical products, you're still getting a different value for the money paid. All of which is to say that Canada is a unique market in the worst possible way - we just pay more than everyone else for the same product.

I m happy to pay that $700 premium on LHR-DEL. On YOW/YUL-LHR? You're having a laugh.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: WildcatYXU
Posted 2013-02-07 10:02:45 and read 37291 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 33):
TK gives me a return ticket from BOM via IST, with Y+ on the 10 hr IST leg and Y on IST-BOM legs for about $1800. And TK's Y+ offering will still be substantially better than what AC apparently has on offer. Nearly $2000 on a return Y+ fare from YUL to CDG? That's horrendous.

Well, actually, the same TK gives you IST-BUD in Y+ for about $ 2000 too. Not much difference compared to AC.

[Edited 2013-02-07 10:03:26]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-07 10:12:03 and read 36979 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 40):
Having flown on a ten abreast Emirates model, I realised that unless you're, well shall we actually say fat, it's fine.

Fine and comfortable are two different things. Value for money, as well, is an altogether different matter.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: CPDC10-30
Posted 2013-02-07 10:12:23 and read 37090 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 40):
Having flown on a ten abreast Emirates model, I realised that unless you're, well shall we actually say fat, it's fine.
For an economy product, for what we pay, it's perfectly acceptable, for those who want more, pay more.

I beg to differ. I'm not fat, but large (6'3" / 200 lbs). I have broad shoulders, which I can't do anything about, even if I lost 50 pounds. On the 9W 77Ws I flew LHR-BOM and DEL-LHR, the flights were extremely uncomfortable. My shoulder protruded about 2-3 inches into the aisle, and I was being bumped by pax and trollies the entire flight. If I was in a middle or window seat, I'd be significantly invading the personal space of the pax next to me.

In fact, it's enough to put me off flying 9W's 77Ws (and any others like EK, AF, KL) in the future. I'd rather have the somewhat subpar product BA offers, but 9 across.

[Edited 2013-02-07 10:14:25]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-02-07 10:30:05 and read 36460 times.

Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 49):
I beg to differ. I'm not fat, but large (6'3" / 200 lbs). I have broad shoulders, which I can't do anything about, even if I lost 50 pounds. On the 9W 77Ws I flew LHR-BOM and DEL-LHR, the flights were extremely uncomfortable. My shoulder protruded about 2-3 inches into the aisle, and I was being bumped by pax and trollies the entire flight. If I was in a middle or window seat, I'd be significantly invading the personal space of the pax next to me.

Has Jet already converted their 77Ws to 10 abreast? Their seat maps still show them as 9 abreast...

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: reffado
Posted 2013-02-07 10:35:31 and read 36381 times.

Just when I thought TAM was already squeezing people in on their 362 seater 77W's. On a side note, do the "regular" AC 77W aircraft have first class? Or just business and premium economy?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: WildcatYXU
Posted 2013-02-07 10:42:18 and read 35629 times.

Quoting reffado (Reply 51):
On a side note, do the "regular" AC 77W aircraft have first class? Or just business and premium economy?

Only business and economy. Y+ is new for AC.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2013-02-07 10:43:58 and read 35628 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 27):
As sad as I am to see this trend, I have to grudgingly admit, it IS the future.

I guess so. When we reflect on how it was with wide-bodies at their beginning, 8 or 9 abreast Ten years later, it was 9 or 10 for the same aircraft to cope with trends of lower fares. Some scheduled DC-10 or L-1011 operators even went for 10 seats across. After all, the 77W was seen as a 747 replacement, and with airlines such as TS on certain routes, the pressure is growing.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-07 10:47:06 and read 35515 times.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 47):
Well, actually, the same TK gives you IST-BUD in Y+ for about $ 2000 too. Not much difference compared to AC.

TK offers Y+ on short-haul? Since when? And when I checked for May, a rtn J ticket IST-BUD is around 2200 TYR or about CA$1240.

If you meant to say YYZ-BUD via IST, well it's $1500 restricted, $2000 unrestricted. The main difference here is that you are taking two flights. And YYZ-IST is a 10 hr long flight.

AC wants you to pay $2000 for premium economy on a 7 hr flight. TK charges $1500 for Y+ on a 10 hr flight, followed by a 2 hr flight. It's only $2000 if you go for an unrestricted ticket.

TK offers 46" seat pitch and 19.3" seats with a 2-3-2 layout in Y+. AC offers you 38" seat pitch with 20" seats in a 2-4-2 layout. AC has 24 seats on their 77W. Turkish has 63.

Not much difference compared to AC? You gotta be kidding. They aren't even in the same league.

TK has now become my default carrier to South Asia out of Toronto. Get my aeroplan points and get to enjoy a real Y+ service at a rather reasonable price. By the way, if I were choose to fly out of New York, by spending the night at my cousin's place there, I could get Y+ fares to BOM as low as $1400. The only way I'd pay $2000 for Y+ on AC, would be if AC offered direct service from YYZ to BOM. Otherwise, I'd rather fly TK and travel in Y from IST to BOM (a 6hr flight). The hard and soft product offered on TK in Comfort Class approaches J on several carriers. I can remember when J was actually exactly what TK offers in Y+ today, before today's lie-flats. And getting that for 10 hrs, makes up having to sit in Y for 6 hrs. And TK still gives you a 17.5" seat and 33" pitch in Y on the 332s and 333s they use on IST-BOM. Compare that to 17" seats and 31" pitch in Y on these new AC 77Ws.

The limited number of seats makes it clear to me. Y+ on AC is meant for the upgraders. This way they can avoid handing out too many J upgrades to Elites and Super Elites, and compel this crowd to actually pay for J more often. I'm curious how this game plan works out for AC. Anybody who travels internationally substantially would be far better off seeking a status match on another carrier and using a carrier that offers better service or a better cabin. AC is only worthwhile if you fly a lot inside North America.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2013-02-07 10:47:59 and read 35642 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 36):
One more concern. Number of washrooms. Imagine the lineups and the ummm comfort level....

6 lavatories for 400 economy passengers is going to create a mess. Currently they have 8 lavatories for 300 economy passengers on the 77Ws.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-02-07 10:54:39 and read 35313 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 24):
Why is it unfortunate they are being provided the product they wish to pay for.

That would be true if the prices would be going down for the traveler but they aren't because air fares are not dictated by how many seats you can cram into a plane. Last time i checked no one asked for less room and more expensive air fares. I bet all you want that AC will charge at least the same, probably more on this plane than it charges today for the same ticket on a 9-abreast 77W. And that is why it's bad for consumers.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: WildcatYXU
Posted 2013-02-07 10:59:34 and read 35206 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 54):
If you meant to say BUD via IST, well it's $1500 restricted, $2000 unrestricted. The main difference here is that you are taking two flights. And IST is a 10 hr long flight.



Yes, my apologies. That's exactly what I meant. Now, I have to say that I could never find an Y+ fare under 2k. But I have to admit that I was always looking for tickets in July.

Quoting ytz (Reply 54):
TK has now become my default carrier to South Asia out of Toronto.



As they are now able to tag on a flight from/to

Quoting ytz (Reply 54):
Y+ on AC is meant for the upgraders.



As an AC Elite (or now Altitude E50K) I'm afraid you're right. And since I seldom manage to get domestic upgrades, I could as well switch to Miles&Smiles.

[Edited 2013-02-07 11:11:36]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-07 11:01:44 and read 35189 times.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 55):
6 lavatories for 400 economy passengers is going to create a mess. Currently they have 8 lavatories for 300 economy passengers on the 77Ws.

It ain't great for the upper cabins either. I am assuming 3 washrooms for 60 pax in J and Y+. Certainly not the ratio that most AC J pax are used to.

If you're in Y though, better pack the nose clips and/or be prepared to hold it till you reach the destination. 78% increase in demand per washroom. I predict that at least one or two washrooms go out of service prior to arrival on the really long routes.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: krisyyz
Posted 2013-02-07 11:04:48 and read 35140 times.

I've flown on AC's B77W a few times and have always considered them to be very comfortable planes, so I'm pretty disappointed at this new config. If this change becomes fleet wide on the 777s, can we expect to see frequency reductions on routes like YYZ-FRA or LHR where AC operated more than 1 daily flight in addition to other carriers flying the same route?

Quoting ytz (Reply 54):
If you meant to say YYZ-BUD via IST, well it's $1500 restricted, $2000 unrestricted. The main difference here is that you are taking two flights. And YYZ-IST is a 10 hr long flight.

I just paid $950 for YYZ-BUD on KL, and in my opinion KL's service far exceeds that of AC. Not to mention the very convienent connection time at AMS.

KrisYYZ

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-02-07 11:09:27 and read 35028 times.

Looking in the past, I can't think of any time where AC "misjudged" its Customers, and introduced a product that was a "bomb". The bottom line is just that ... the bottom line. With mid 80% load factors, there is room to grow, and if it does reflect in the bottom line, it will be changed quickly. The last thing I can think of is the 5 abreast Y product on the Viscount 700s. It did not last long, as was reconfigured after customer complaints.

But think about it, look at the routes AC flies, by a huge margin, the vast majority of Y passengers choose by price. As I have said many times before, Air Transat owes its very existence to the fact the comfort comes after price. I also have to assume that KLM, Air France and Air New Zealand know what they are doing.

I am going to assume the B77Ws will all eventually be reconfigured to this cabin layout. I am curious about the B77L, as nothing has been announced. Also, will this new J product be introduced on the A330 and B767?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-07 11:16:33 and read 34758 times.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 57):
As an AC Elite (or now Altitude E50K) I'm afraid you're right. And since I seldom manage to get domestic upgrades, I could as well switch to Miles&Smiles.

If you ever have time, you should simply visit the TK office in TO and chat with them about it.

I will admit that the one area where TK seriously lags is their call in centres. English skills aren't great. That said, the fares and service more than make up for it.

And here's another curious thing I discovered. Planning a trip to India for May. Decided I stop in Istanbul for the weekend. Never been, but it's been on my bucket list before I discovered TK. So I select a multi-city trip. YYZ-IST-BOM-IST. Choose Comfort class. The booking engine charges me about $10 less and books me on J for the IST-BOM. I don't know if I'll actually end up on J, but if I'm saving $10 and getting a stopover in IST, that's the cherry on top.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2013-02-07 11:18:21 and read 34680 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 58):
It ain't great for the upper cabins either. I am assuming 3 washrooms for 60 pax in J and Y+. Certainly not the ratio that most AC J pax are used to.

They might fit two in front of 1L. Not sure about that.

The number of lavatories on planes seems to be going down. LH only has 2 for their main deck business class section of 60 seats on the 748. At least with LH you can go up stairs and use one of those lavs.

Quoting ytz (Reply 54):

TK offers Y+ on short-haul? Since when? And when I checked for May, a rtn J ticket IST-BUD is around 2200 TYR or about CA$1240.

If you meant to say YYZ-BUD via IST, well it's $1500 restricted, $2000 unrestricted. The main difference here is that you are taking two flights. And YYZ-IST is a 10 hr long flight.

AC wants you to pay $2000 for premium economy on a 7 hr flight. TK charges $1500 for Y+ on a 10 hr flight, followed by a 2 hr flight. It's only $2000 if you go for an unrestricted ticket.

TK offers 46" seat pitch and 19.3" seats with a 2-3-2 layout in Y+. AC offers you 38" seat pitch with 20" seats in a 2-4-2 layout. AC has 24 seats on their 77W. Turkish has 63.

Not much difference compared to AC? You gotta be kidding. They aren't even in the same league.

TK certainly has the best premium economy out there. You could argue for Air New Zealand, but that seat is kind of a unique oddity. I think TK is facing inadequate demand at the price point they need to break even. I've heard rumors that they will adjust their premium economy configuration since it isn't paying for itself.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-07 11:28:08 and read 34371 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 60):
But think about it, look at the routes AC flies, by a huge margin, the vast majority of Y passengers choose by price.

Agreed. However, this will only work if AC actually reduces its fares to try and steal more marketshare from TS. Why would any price sensitive customer choose AC if the prices are still higher and he/she is getting virtually the same product as TS?

Quoting longhauler (Reply 60):
I am curious about the B77L, as nothing has been announced.

Me too. 31" pitch for a 15 hr flight? No way I'd do it. But I'm sure there are enough penny pinchers who will.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 60):
Also, will this new J product be introduced on the A330 and B767?

Curious that they didn't fill in the staff first. I don't see the point of retrofitting the 333s and 767s when some will move to Rouge and eventually get some kind of Rouge layout or get replaced by 787s.

By the way, is it safe to assume that AC Rouge will operate with similar standards? So 8-abreast Y and 6-abreast Y+ on Rouge 767s?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-02-07 11:32:18 and read 34305 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 63):
Why would any price sensitive customer choose AC if the prices are still higher and he/she is getting virtually the same product as TS?

I was only using Transat as an example. Substitute AF, or KL in there.

Quoting ytz (Reply 63):
By the way, is it safe to assume that AC Rouge will operate with similar standards? So 8-abreast Y and 6-abreast Y+ on Rouge 767s?

No. Rouge will be 7 abreast in Y, and the new Premium Economy product at the front of the aircraft will 6 abreast, on the B767.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: WildcatYXU
Posted 2013-02-07 11:37:18 and read 34261 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 60):
Also, will this new J product be introduced on the A330 and B767?



According to AC's representative on FT, no.

Quoting ytz (Reply 63):
By the way, is it safe to assume that AC Rouge will operate with similar standards? So 8-abreast Y and 6-abreast Y+ on Rouge 767s?



The first two Rouge planes should be the "pineapples", meaning ex HA planes. Domestic J-like seats in the front cabin, 7 abreast Y. I don't know, however, the seat pitch. It won't be too much though, since they are talking about 29" on Rouge 319's.

[Edited 2013-02-07 11:38:36]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-07 11:39:57 and read 34131 times.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 62):
TK certainly has the best premium economy out there. You could argue for Air New Zealand, but that seat is kind of a unique oddity.

IMHO, NZ does it best because they actually target Y+ as a "premium" economy experience, as opposed to an economy plus experience, which most american carriers sell. NZ's fares do reflect that though. But it is impressive that they actually spent time targeting and developing the premium economy experience as separate from economy or J-lite.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 62):
I think TK is facing inadequate demand at the price point they need to break even. I've heard rumors that they will adjust their premium economy configuration since it isn't paying for itself.

To be honest, I do think TK could and should scale back a bit. I for one would mind if they added an extra row in that cabin or went to 2-4-2. Or even both, 19" wide seats and 40" of legroom is still a great product for Y+ given their Comfort class service. Might let them reduce fares just a little bit to attract more pax. In my most humble opinion, a 5% fare cut would work wonders for this cabin, by placing it exactly in the price point that many pax might be able to impulse upgrade on the last screen when booking.

Adding an extra of 7 is a 11% capacity bump.
Going to 2-4-2 is a 14% bump.
Doing both? 27% capacity bump.

I would not mind TK going to 2-4-2 and 40" pitch and dropping the fares 10%. That said, I don't know if TK is concerned about cannibalizing J.

[Edited 2013-02-07 11:42:51]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2013-02-07 11:45:23 and read 33985 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 24):
Everyone demands more comfort.. then they go online and book the cheapest fair.

   And they do that even if the difference is only 5%. This is the free market at work, folks. The customers are getting exactly what their behavior shows they want.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 27):
As sad as I am to see this trend, I have to grudgingly admit, it IS the future.

   I believe every 777 in service in 2025 will have 10-abreast economy.

Quoting ytz (Reply 38):
But in the future, I'll look for carriers operating A350s. If travelling in Y, you know you'll get an 18" wide seat.

17.5" (in place of the 787's 17.2"). The A350 is only a few inches wider than the 787, and 18" won't fit.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: flyyul
Posted 2013-02-07 11:57:02 and read 33849 times.

Let me correct information from AC internal:

-The 5 B777-300ER with 458 seats will not do ultra long haul flying - this will not be the end state configuration for the balance of the 777s

-The business class product is not our end state product for the current 773s/772s and the B787s

Air France in the summer sends a daily 472 seater on YUL-CDG. Instead of investing multiple assets and frequencies to one route - why not make better use of the real estate onboard to address demand and cost at the same time. The deployment of these aircraft are done on a strategic basis, and again are not reflective of the end state Air Canada widebody onboard product.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-07 12:03:17 and read 33509 times.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 67):
17.5" (in place of the 787's 17.2"). The A350 is only a few inches wider than the 787, and 18" won't fit.

As per my understanding, the 350 would be closer to 18. In any event, something better than nothing. For me personally, I've got slightly broader shoulders. It's not the butt room, I find restrictive, it's the fact that I just can't move my torso much lest I impact my neighbours.

But I guess, this gives us a good idea of what to expect from AC going forward. Especially on the 787s. AC will be LCC service without LCC fares.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: cmf
Posted 2013-02-07 12:18:57 and read 33108 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 24):
It always amazes me how few Y+ seats will be in any cabin. It shows how few people are willing to pay for comfort. I understand J/C is often too pricey, but this shows that only 6% of Y passengers are willing to pay for comfort.

It amazes me how poorly most airlines sell Y+. Another problem is that the package varies significantly between airlines so what is a good deal on one isn't nearly as good on another even though the price is essentially the same.

From what I see airlines see it as a way to lose C customers instead of up-sell Y.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: LXA340
Posted 2013-02-07 12:37:03 and read 32647 times.

THe C Seats could be the Thomson seats found on airlines such as LX, SN or OS looking at the configuration

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: cschleic
Posted 2013-02-07 12:40:10 and read 32560 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 38):
Thankfully, Airbus didn't make it possible for the airlines to go 10-abreast.

But don't some 330 operators have 9 across, instead of the usual 8? Air Transat comes to mind. Seat width is 16.5 (per seatguru) vs. 18.0 for their "usual" 330. Others?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: Qantas744ER
Posted 2013-02-07 13:07:12 and read 31983 times.

New J seat. They are naming this one "Executive First Seat" with the herringbone seat being the "Executive First Suite"





The 12 77W's currently in the fleet will maintain their current config.

The 5 new 77W's will come in the new config with the first aircraft arriving in July 2013.

[Edited 2013-02-07 13:10:35]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: jreuschl
Posted 2013-02-07 13:13:42 and read 31720 times.

How does this high-density seat width compare to say a regular 73x/A32x seat? Actually, it appears it would be the same, correct? So some passengers who do not fly a lot may not notice any difference.

[Edited 2013-02-07 13:16:33]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: LondonCity
Posted 2013-02-07 13:21:46 and read 31591 times.

Quoting cschleic (Reply 72):
But don't some 330 operators have 9 across, instead of the usual 8? Air Transat comes to mind. Seat width is 16.5 (per seatguru) vs. 18.0 for their "usual" 330. Others?

Air AsiaX has 3-3-3 seating on both its A330s and A340s. Not sure if the A340s are in service right now (since Air AsiaX withdrew from Europe) but the A300s operate longish routes within the region, including Australia.

By the way, when Air AsiaX acquires A350s, it will configure them with a dense 10-across Y cabin.

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalk...rope-flights-with-a350xwb-in-2015/

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: thenoflyzone
Posted 2013-02-07 13:22:18 and read 31517 times.

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 8):
AF has 472 seats for flights to old colonies and territories, I think

COI config on AF is 468 seats.

http://www.airfrance.fr/common/image...bine/fr/B777300_468pax_maxi_fr.gif

Thenoflyzone

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-07 13:53:53 and read 30767 times.

Quoting LondonCity (Reply 75):
Air AsiaX has 3-3-3 seating on both its A330s and A340s. Not sure if the A340s are in service right now (since Air AsiaX withdrew from Europe) but the A300s operate longish routes within the region, including Australia.

Compare Air Asia's fares for the same distance though.

Air Canada is increasing passenger capacity on its 77W by 31%. I can't even picture AC dropping YUL-CDG fares by 10%. If AC were to drop round trip fares for YUL-CDG to under $1000 (not including taxes), then it might be worth supporting. From the looks of it though, AC's fares will still be 40% than TS. So what's the point? Surely, non-status aeroplan points and marginally better food can't cost hundreds of dollars?

Oh and TS is $1500 for Y+ on YUL-CDG return.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: flyyul
Posted 2013-02-07 14:09:12 and read 30422 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 77):
From the looks of it though, AC's fares will still be 40% than TS. So what's the point? Surely, non-status aeroplan points and marginally better food can't cost hundreds of dollars

The intention is for Air Canada to match TS pricing. This is a clear message that Air Canada intends on being a serious competitor in the Montreal-Paris market (also the largest international citypair in Canada) and compete with lower cost carriers such as TS/SS.

This type of decision is not made without a careful review of our commercial strategy for this market.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-07 14:13:17 and read 30295 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 13):
Less privacy in J.

I much prefer the staggered J seats as on the new AC 77Ws to the herringbone layout. Many passenges prefefer to face forward, and the new seats (like those on LX A330/340s and others) make better use of the floor space since your legs fit into the space between the offset seats in front.

Quoting airceo (Reply 19):
24 Y+ is a pittance and knowing AC they'll charge 2x Y for those.

I'll hold of judging for now I fear you may be right.

Enough passengers will be willing to pay the higher fares. 24 seats at twice the Y fare is the same as 48 seats at 150% of the Y fare, and it leaves room for more Y seats. The routes where these high-density 77Ws are intended to be used also probably aren't the routes with the highest premium Y demand. If demand proves higher than expected it's not difficult to expand the W cabin.

Quoting airceo (Reply 19):
Sitting 10 abreast from DXB to India is one thing, sitting 10 abreast from YYZ to India is quit another.

Many 10-abreast 77Ws operate nonstop sectors much further than YYZ-India, for example EK LAX/SFO-DXB, more than 1,000 miles further than YYZ-DEL.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 27):
Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 26):
I guess most majors will eventually get there on their B77Ws.

As sad as I am to see this trend, I have to grudgingly admit, it IS the future. While by percentage, currently flying 9-abreast B777s outnumber 10-abreast B777s, the fact is on new build B777s, the ratio is 5:1 for 10 vs. 9 abreast configurations.

Fortunately AC 767s and A330s will still be around for a few years.

Quoting reffado (Reply 51):
On a side note, do the "regular" AC 77W aircraft have first class? Or just business and premium economy?

AC dropped F class at least 20 years ago if not longer.

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 59):
I just paid $950 for YYZ-BUD on KL, and in my opinion KL's service far exceeds that of AC

I doubt you were on a KL 10-abreast 77W on that trip.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 60):
The last thing I can think of is the 5 abreast Y product on the Viscount 700s. It did not last long, as was reconfigured after customer complaints.

If memory correct AC converted the Viscounts from the 2-class layout (12 F 4-abreast, 39 Y 5-abreast except last row 4-abreast) to 4-abreast all-Y (48 seats), with slightly less pitch than the original all-F class 44-seat layout but basically the same seats that were originally sold as F class, about the the time the DC-9 was introduced. It gave passengers the option of a faster 5-abreast DC-9 or a more comfortable but slower Viscount for the remaining years of Viscount service. And there was very little demand for the 12 F class seats on the routes being operated by the Viscounts by then. They were probably empty on many flights. Made economic sense to both improve Y comfort whille having another 9 Y seats to sell.

Quoting ytz (Reply 63):
By the way, is it safe to assume that AC Rouge will operate with similar standards? So 8-abreast Y and 6-abreast Y+ on Rouge 767s?

No, 7 abreast Y.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-07 14:13:52 and read 30248 times.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 68):
The deployment of these aircraft are done on a strategic basis, and again are not reflective of the end state Air Canada widebody onboard product.

I don't buy that very easily. Interim till the 787? And they were willing to spend millions and yet another configuration? I could see this layout becoming standard for all TATL and all TPAC flights less than 12 hours (basically excluding HKG). I am willing to bet that we'll see 77Hs on YYZ-LHR/CDG/FRA/MUC/GRU/GIG and on YVR-INC/NRT/PEK/PVG

And what a fragmented mess. Executives suites are the old J. Executives Seats are the new J. And two different Y products and a whole different class (Y+) on the same aircraft type.

This should do wonders for AC's reputation with the flying public, especially when equipment changes happen and patrons soon discover that an AC 77W doesn't mean the same thing all the time.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-07 14:21:36 and read 30070 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 80):
This should do wonders for AC's reputation with the flying public, especially when equipment changes happen and patrons soon discover that an AC 77W doesn't mean the same thing all the time.

Different routes often have vastly different characteristics. Other carriers cope with similar situations. For example KL 77Ws are 10-abreast and their 77Es are 9-abreast. Do you think many KL passengers know the difference?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-07 14:23:44 and read 30036 times.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 78):
The intention is for Air Canada to match TS pricing.

You should let the people who run your websites know. The numbers I quoted were for end march and end August.

Now if AC is dropping Y fares by 25% then you'll find many of us will happily support the configuration change. But despite what you say, I have my doubts that the fare cuts will be that substantial. With TS, you can fly YUL-CDG for $800 return, all in. AC is at least 30-40% higher at any given time of year. Not even in the ballpark of TS.

I am curious to see when this change to match TS will happen.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-07 14:34:50 and read 29777 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 81):
Do you think many KL passengers know the difference?

Your frequent fliers most certainly will. And if they don't like the product, well....

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 81):
Different routes often have vastly different characteristics. Other carriers cope with similar situations. For example KL 77Ws are 10-abreast and their 77Es are 9-abreast.

If that's the case, what's the point of Rouge? AC can clearly degrade mainline service sufficiently so that it can charge less. Effectively, this 77H is nothing more than a Rouge bird with a J cabin (one in which AC is fitting 50% more seats than its other 77W)?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-07 14:40:28 and read 29677 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 83):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 81):
Different routes often have vastly different characteristics. Other carriers cope with similar situations. For example KL 77Ws are 10-abreast and their 77Es are 9-abreast.

If that's the case, what's the point of Rouge? AC can clearly degrade mainline service sufficiently so that it can charge less. Effectively, this 77H is nothing more than a Rouge bird with a J cabin

Difference is that the high-density 77Ws are intended for routes that have strong price-sensitive Y class demand but also significant premium demand, while Rouge is directed at markets with little or no premium demand.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: flyyul
Posted 2013-02-07 14:46:06 and read 29572 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 80):
I don't buy that very easily. Interim till the 787? And they were willing to spend millions and yet another configuration? I could see this layout becoming standard for all TATL and all TPAC flights less than 12 hours (basically excluding HKG). I am willing to bet that we'll see 77Hs on LHR/CDG/FRA/MUC/GRU/GIG and on YVR-INC/NRT/PEK/PVG

And what a fragmented mess. Executives suites are the old J. Executives Seats are the new J. And two different Y products and a whole different class (Y ) on the same aircraft type.

This should do wonders for AC's reputation with the flying public, especially when equipment changes happen and patrons soon discover that an AC 77W doesn't mean the same thing all the time.
AC doesn't want to invest more assets in terms of frequency but rather better use of existing frequency offering in heavily slot restricted airports.



YTZ - i'm commenting based on the fact that i'm involved in this particular project. Would be wise for you to hear me about before you start doubting what I'm saying in this particular thread.

This WILL NOT be our end state product nor configuration for the remaining fleet. More noise will be made about this at a later date.

Let me take you through the Delta Airlines widebody product(s)

B777 - Contour suites herringbone
B747 - Cirrus Zodiac
A330 - Cirrus Zodiac
B767 - Thompson Vantage

Sub-fleets are very healthy and normal practice in the airline industry. As mentioned, these aircrafts are aimed at markets where it's much more economical to enhance seating density rather than adding costly frequency (more fuel, more pilots, more staff, more maintenance etc etc.). On a market like Montreal-Paris the comparables are;

Air France - 10 abreast non lie flat C
Air Transat - 9 abreast on an A330-200
Corsair - 586 seats on a B747-400

So this is the official word from internal...

[Edited 2013-02-07 14:46:43]

[Edited 2013-02-07 14:47:20]

[Edited 2013-02-07 14:48:31]

[Edited 2013-02-07 14:49:24]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: krisyyz
Posted 2013-02-07 14:50:45 and read 29508 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 79):

I doubt you were on a KL 10-abreast 77W on that trip.

No, on a 10 abreast 744.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 81):
. For example KL 77Ws are 10-abreast and their 77Es are 9-abreast. Do you think many KL passengers know the difference?

I even found KL's 3-3-3 772 a bit a bit tight. AKAIK, most airlines that switched their 777s to 10 abreast took most of the space from the aisles, so the FA's would probably notice more than the pax.

KrisYYZ

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2013-02-07 15:01:58 and read 29282 times.

Quoting cschleic (Reply 72):
Quoting ytz (Reply 38): Thankfully, Airbus didn't make it possible for the airlines to go 10-abreast.
But don't some 330 operators have 9 across, instead of the usual 8? Air Transat comes to mind. Seat width is 16.5 (per seatguru) vs. 18.0 for their "usual" 330. Others?

Indeed some airlines have a 9 across. Doing that, is a bit like cramming 10 across on a DC-10 or MD-11 comfort-wise, as some airlines have done, and not just charter airlines.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: CF105Arrow
Posted 2013-02-07 15:11:05 and read 29067 times.

Flyyul, why does the Executive First seat pitch differ, isn't it possible to use a more uniform seat pitch rather than 3 inches difference between two seats? is it 2 different seat pitches or even more?

Thanks,

Sam

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-07 15:13:18 and read 29033 times.

@flyyul

Fair enough. The comment wasn't specifically directed at you personally.

========

Overall, I think I'm most disappointed by the size of the Y+ cabin. I can understand going 10-abreast in J to reduce costs. But the tiny Y+ cabin seems almost entirely directed at reducing the number of non-paying status upgraders in J, rather than an attractive new proposition to entice some Y flyers (say those on corporate travel) to upgrade.

Oh well, I guess AC has crunched the numbers and believes this is what will pay the bills.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2013-02-07 15:19:26 and read 28926 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 60):
But think about it, look at the routes AC flies, by a huge margin, the vast majority of Y passengers choose by price. As I have said many times before, Air Transat owes its very existence to the fact the comfort comes after price. I also have to assume that KLM, Air France and Air New Zealand know what they are doing.
Quoting longhauler (Reply 64):
I was only using Transat as an example. Substitute AF, or KL in there.

AF/KL and TS are very different entities. One has a global network - the other caters to folk for whom time isn't an issue. For AC to match AF/KL on anything other than YUL-CDG, it will have to tap into a bigger network provided by the LH group. Presumably they have some input on how low fares can go for points east/south of Europe?

Quoting flyyul (Reply 68):
The deployment of these aircraft are done on a strategic basis, and again are not reflective of the end state Air Canada widebody onboard product.

Those aircraft could theoretically show up anywhere as an equipment swap - what happens to Y+ pax then? I mean, you might get out of it on the Canada-EU leg, but on the EU-Canada leg, there are very clear rules about involuntary downgrades. Given AC's reticence to honour EU laws on cancellation, those involuntary downgrade compensation rules could get expensive. (I am sure AC will deny any reticence, but anyone who's been in that situation knows the kind of straight-faced lies that AC uses - until a third party in the EU is engaged to go and collect the money, in which case AC suddenly does an about face 'determines' that it owes you the compensation, and lets you know about this in an email that also revokes those pitiful 5-10% discounts they initially try to peddle as compensation.)

Quoting flyyul (Reply 78):
The intention is for Air Canada to match TS pricing.

$800 tickets on mainline AC? If that is the end state, I support it wholeheartedly. Of course with the flight costing $1060 right now, the sight of a 20% decline would make a believer out of even the most cynical of us.

Quoting ytz (Reply 69):
AC will be LCC service without LCC fares.

I take it you haven't flown AC transborder? AC is already LCC service without LCC fares. Its just being rolled out system wide.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 64):
No. Rouge will be 7 abreast in Y, and the new Premium Economy product at the front of the aircraft will 6 abreast, on the B767.

I suppose I can thank my lucky stars that I fly mostly out of YOW and there's no real threat of one of these 3-4-3 birds ending up here. Long live the 767.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-07 15:27:13 and read 28770 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 90):
Quoting ytz (Reply 69):
AC will be LCC service without LCC fares.

I take it you haven't flown AC transborder? AC is already LCC service without LCC fares.

But who isn't within North America these days, leaving aside the odd niche operator like Porter? In my experience AC's service on domestic/transborder flights is fully competitive, and usually better, than their direct competitors.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: 9252fly
Posted 2013-02-07 15:33:25 and read 28638 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 89):
Oh well, I guess AC has crunched the numbers and believes this is what will pay the bills.

In very general terms,I find a.net postings tend to question decisions by airlines to make changes as if they haven't the slightest clue what they are doing. You can be very assured that they've "crunched the numbers". The business is all about change and adapting, to do nothing in a dynamic marketplace would spell doom.I personally don't like the new 10 Y configuration,but if it means AC will stay viable and has a vision of the future,then so be it. Rouge is another attempt to adapt to today's realities and it's AC signal that they are done with having their market share eroded and lunch eaten. Just consider the significant capacity and service increases in the western Canada regional market;a clear message to WS Encore that the gloves-are-off. Will AC be successful with their strategy? Hard to say,they must try though as the alternative is an inevitable death by a thousand cuts.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: WildcatYXU
Posted 2013-02-07 15:57:04 and read 28210 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 89):
But the tiny Y+ cabin seems almost entirely directed at reducing the number of non-paying status upgraders in J, rather than an attractive new proposition to entice some Y flyers (say those on corporate travel) to upgrade.

Currently it's impossible to upgrade from Y to O using E-upgrades. As far as upgrading from O to J is concerned, the same rules apply as for the M fare bucket. Of course, this may change with time. However, I'm afraid that the rare op-ups will be now to O instead of J.

Quoting ytz (Reply 77):
Surely, non-status aeroplan points and marginally better food can't cost hundreds of dollars?

Those Aeroplan points are in fact AQM's, but they still aren't worth hundreds of dollars.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: davidCA
Posted 2013-02-07 16:06:47 and read 28013 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 90):

Why? YUL-CDG could have sufficient point-to-point traffic to fill a high density aircraft. So might other markets.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-02-07 16:13:03 and read 27924 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 91):

But who isn't within North America these days, leaving aside the odd niche operator like Porter? In my experience AC's service on domestic/transborder flights is fully competitive, and usually better, than their direct competitors.

I agree.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 68):

Let me correct information from AC internal:

-The 5 B777-300ER with 458 seats will not do ultra long haul flying - this will not be the end state configuration for the balance of the 777s

-The business class product is not our end state product for the current 773s/772s and the B787s

Air France in the summer sends a daily 472 seater on YUL-CDG. Instead of investing multiple assets and frequencies to one route - why not make better use of the real estate onboard to address demand and cost at the same time. The deployment of these aircraft are done on a strategic basis, and again are not reflective of the end state Air Canada widebody onboard product.
Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 73):
The 12 77W's currently in the fleet will maintain their current config.

The 5 new 77W's will come in the new config with the first aircraft arriving in July 2013.

That is what I was told by a gentleman I was sitting beside on my last flight to LHR.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 79):
Quoting ytz (Reply 13):
Less privacy in J.

I much prefer the J seats as on the new AC 77Ws to the herringbone layout. Many passenges prefefer to face forward, and the new seats (like those on LX A330/340s and others) make better use of the floor space since your legs fit into the space between the offset seats in front.

Quoting airceo (Reply 19):
24 Y+ is a pittance and knowing AC they'll charge 2x Y for those.

I'll hold of judging for now I fear you may be right.

Enough passengers will be willing to pay the higher fares. 24 seats at twice the Y fare is the same as 48 seats at 150% of the Y fare, and it leaves room for more Y seats. The routes where these high-density 77Ws are intended to be used also probably aren't the routes with the highest premium Y demand. If demand proves higher than expected it's not difficult to expand the W cabin.
Quoting ytz (Reply 80):
I don't buy that very easily. Interim till the 787? And they were willing to spend millions and yet another configuration? I could see this layout becoming standard for all TATL and all TPAC flights less than 12 hours (basically excluding HKG). I am willing to bet that we'll see 77Hs on YYZ-LHR/CDG/FRA/MUC/GRU/GIG and on YVR-INC/NRT/PEK/PVG

We won't see the changes on the Asian routes as they will remain with the existing aircraft, from what I am to understand.

[quote=ytz,reply=83]
If that's the case, what's the point of Rouge? AC can clearly degrade mainline service sufficiently so that it can charge less. Effectively, this 77H is nothing more than a Rouge bird with a J cabin (one in which AC is fitting 50% more seats than its other 77W)?[/quote
Rouge is being used by the tourists and non business travelers, by the looks of their routings from what I have read.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2013-02-07 18:10:35 and read 25982 times.

Quoting davidCA (Reply 94):
Why? YUL-CDG could have sufficient point-to-point traffic to fill a high density aircraft. So might other markets.

That post was a response to a post comparing AC to AF/KL. Most ex-Canada traffic on KL is not headed to AMS - it feeds other airports.

Which markets are you thinking of? Apart from the LHR routes (some, not all of them), I doubt theres too many point-to-point markets that would need a high density 777. AC sends a lot of its metal to FRA which definitely doesn't have the point-to-point traffic required (85%+ of the YOW-FRA flight is transit). Most of the European routes are generally leisure heavy, and many of them are slated to go to Rouge 767s.

Which begs the question, as alluded to by some posters: are these 777s going to go to Rouge eventually?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-07 18:15:19 and read 25924 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 96):
AC sends a lot of its metal to FRA which definitely doesn't have the point-to-point traffic required (85%+ of the YOW-FRA flight is transit).

However Canada-Germany is a very large O&D market and many passengers on FRA flights are connecting to other cities in Germany.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: Mikey86
Posted 2013-02-07 18:27:53 and read 25762 times.

No need for an A380 when you can pack people in a 77W to this amount - who cares about space and comfort AC says :P!

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: gegtim
Posted 2013-02-07 19:08:53 and read 24996 times.

Wonder what the max fuel load will be on these a/c?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: YVRLTN
Posted 2013-02-07 19:11:46 and read 25049 times.

Oh well, as a leisure traveller with not a lot of spare change, may as well continue to save $500-1000 each and stick with TS. Same difference.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 40):
But so very few will pay out of their own pockets if course.

Maybe some of us dont have it in their pockets. We are fairly well off, but I would still rather spend the $900 I saved while on vacation. Not to mention fares in Canada are pretty high compared to most other markets to start with.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 55):
6 lavatories for 400 economy passengers is going to create a mess

Thanks for the amusing visual   Bring your own diaper!

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 3):
I guess they are taking a page from AF's book?

Cant beat em, join em!

Quoting behramjee (Reply 16):
HKG (daily)

They will get eaten alive by CX (more than they are...)

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: behramjee
Posted 2013-02-07 19:24:16 and read 24812 times.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 100):
They will get eaten alive by CX (more than they are...)

LOL...you are blindly stating a fact without knowing the actual truth. FYI in 2012, out of the YYZ-HKG total market size of 293,000 pax, the market share split was as follows:

CX 48%
AC 42%
UA 7%
Others 3%

So unfortunately for you, AC will not and are currently not "being eaten up alive" on the YYZ-HKG route. In fact credit should go more to AC here because they are operating this route using a smaller 260 seater B777-200LR versus CX who use a 360 seater B777-300ER !

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: Carfield
Posted 2013-02-07 19:30:00 and read 24710 times.

I really don't think it is fair to compared Air Asia X with Air Canada. Air Asia X is a LCC (despite one can argue it possible has friendlier staffs all around), but it makes itself clear that Air Asia X is a low cost airline, and of course, they can squeeze in as many seats as they want. When most customers choose to fly Air Asia X, they know what they are buying into. It is a budget airline and what do you expect? Plus Air Asia X is not doing super long haul as of now... they give up on the European markets, and only go to Middle East, North Asia, and Australia now. New Zealand is possibly the furthest.

However I am very disappointed with Air Canada's new 777-300ER configuration. It is a major downgrade in economy class, and the new business class seat is not particularly impressive, especially there will only be six solo seats now. Most people travel solo up front, and the previous herringbone seats seem to be make more sense. Plus the problem with this staggering seat is the lack of foot space for the solo seats. It is really not an improvement from the previous herringbone configuration. I think AC should have just do a quick refreshing of its old suites, and that will be sufficient. Air Canada does not have a big premium market and the current suites are good enough.

The only positive is the introduction of Premium Economy but I will reserve my judgment till I see the real product in action, and see what kind of meals are offered. Will the F/As give special attention to this cabin, or treat it just like economy anyway but with a fancier meal tray and hot towel before each meals? However I like the Power Port installation, but I am curious if Y will at least power port or USB port now or an improved PTV!

Maybe I am old school - but I really feel that full service airlines should not go the LCC track. Ten abreast in 777s are reserved for charter and LCC airlines, not for full service airlines. Unfortunately that is the trend in 2013 and I am sure Air Canada will just be the second airline introducing ten abreast seating in 2013 so far (AA first). More to come! I am sure United will get the idea soon. 787 is a beautiful plane but nine breast seating in Y just kills it. Despite better humidity and larger windows, the 17 inch wide seat will destroy all the positive aspects. Premium Economy is a good business product, but the price is very "high" when economy is further deteriorated to 17 inch width.

Carfield

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: flyyul
Posted 2013-02-07 19:41:14 and read 24502 times.

It's disappointing to see service standards drop in the industry - but as air travel becomes more commoditized this will become the norm.

The biggest controllable item in the CASM calculation - is seating density. How can AC compete when carriers like TS, AF, KL, TK, EK - all have much lower CASMs than AC at base density.

Air Canada is being very pro-active, i'm sure the 77Hs are going to be an overwhelming success as are AF's COI 77W product.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: DavidCA
Posted 2013-02-07 19:51:34 and read 24356 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 96):
Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 96):
Which markets are you thinking of? Apart from the LHR routes (some, not all of them), I doubt theres too many point-to-point markets that would need a high density 777. AC sends a lot of its metal to FRA which definitely doesn't have the point-to-point traffic required (85% of the YOW-FRA flight is transit). Most of the European routes are generally leisure heavy, and many of them are slated to go to Rouge 767s.

The only existing route slated to go to Rouge is ATH. Rouge 767s are otherwise to operate new routes to VCE and EDI.

As for the 77H, we're only talking about 5 aircraft. CDG might make use of 2 of them from YUL and YYZ. Otherwise, some LHR frequencies as you suggest. Japan-Western Canada in summer and/or ski seasons. Caribbean and maybe Florida beach destinations during off-peak periods for TATL.. AC previously operated 496-seat 747s to BGI, Jamaica, FLL, MIA and TPA. The 77W was at one time supposed to be deployed on some CUN frequencies, although it didn't actually happen.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: StarAC17
Posted 2013-02-07 20:01:22 and read 24210 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 96):
Which markets are you thinking of? Apart from the LHR routes (some, not all of them), I doubt theres too many point-to-point markets that would need a high density 777. AC sends a lot of its metal to FRA which definitely doesn't have the point-to-point traffic required (85%+ of the YOW-FRA flight is transit).

As said earlier in this thread there is probably not enough business traffic on a lot of these Euro routes and the South American ones to warrant a huge amount of frequencies and using a 77W like this reduces the amount of flights you need.

This saves maintenance costs by reducing the amount of cycles an aircraft uses as well as the additional costs of putting multiple crews in FRA for their rest cycle. It also allows AC to expand a limited fleet to new destinations such as in Asia where the existing 77W's can be sent.


Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 96):
Most of the European routes are generally leisure heavy, and many of them are slated to go to Rouge 767s.

Rouge will be basically mimicking TS and Sunwing's model where it will serve very seasonal leisure routes to Europe in the summer and sun destinations in the winter (many of these not being daily).

Quoting Mikey86 (Reply 98):
No need for an A380 when you can pack people in a 77W to this amount - who cares about space and comfort AC says :P!

You can and the YYZ-Europe wouldn't be weight restricted either as it uses 50-60% the available range of a 77W. It sucks for passengers but this is the way things are going and AC is not using this layout on YVR-SYD in the near future.

I don't even think YYZ-Europe is really long haul as I could deal with 10x abreast for about 9 hours and any longer I will be paying for that A380.

Quoting Carfield (Reply 102):
Maybe I am old school - but I really feel that full service airlines should not go the LCC track.

I tend to agree but is the marketplace going to pay those costs and the answer is a resounding "NO". In the current economic climate even J isn't as common with business travellers have to fly Y as well, also how many are paying for J.

Hopefully a sustainable balance is reached before we are flying like on WN across the pond.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: questions
Posted 2013-02-07 20:58:47 and read 23486 times.

Quoting swallow (Reply 18):
EK gets lots of stick for its 3-4-3 layout in Y, but more and more airlines are adopting it
Quoting airceo (Reply 19):
Just because it works for some carriers doesn't mean it will for all carriers.
Quoting behramjee (Reply 22):
many airlines worldwide now have 10 abreast in Y class on board their B77W fleet of which EK was the pioneer of.

However, EK gives pax 34" pitch with 3-4-3 seating. Others give 31"-32".

Quoting longhauler (Reply 27):
the fact is on new build B777s, the ratio is 5:1 for 10 vs. 9 abreast configurations.

Is there a source for this fact? Just curious.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: XT6Wagon
Posted 2013-02-07 21:06:21 and read 23366 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 40):

Having flown on a ten abreast Emirates model, I realised that unless you're, well shall we actually say fat, it's fine

depends. I'm wider than a 17.2" Y class seat regardless of how fat or skinny I am. Shoulder width doesn't care about that.... And EK's 777 requires a special cutout on the window seat to match the sidewall curve. So for someone used to using the extra space between the seat and window on narrowbodies to fit at all... well I'm not going to fit on a 10Y 777 unless its a aisle seat.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: questions
Posted 2013-02-07 21:06:46 and read 23377 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 40):
that unless you're, well shall we actually say fat, it's fine.
Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 49):
I'm not fat, but large (6'3" / 200 lbs). I have broad shoulders, which I can't do anything about, even if I lost 50 pounds. On the 9W 77Ws I flew LHR-BOM and DEL-LHR, the flights were extremely uncomfortable. My shoulder protruded about 2-3 inches into the aisle, and I was being bumped by pax and trollies the entire flight.

Narrower seats and more pax abreast also mean your knees can't spread naturally. If you have big balls, it's REALLY uncomfortable flying with your legs together. With narrow seats your natural spread will cause your knees to go into your seat mate's space and/or into the aisles.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: Skydrol
Posted 2013-02-07 21:38:36 and read 22993 times.

Dang, even the all-economy seat 'charter' 747-100s Air Canada once operated were only 416 seats!

And the 747s had 13 lavatories instead of just 6 as stated in a post above for the 777.




✈ LD4 ✈

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: questions
Posted 2013-02-07 21:45:08 and read 22922 times.

Six lavs for 458 passengers? On a long haul flight? Gross. And when one goes out?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: YVRLTN
Posted 2013-02-07 21:47:16 and read 22900 times.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 101):
LOL...you are blindly stating a fact without knowing the actual truth. FYI in 2012, out of the YYZ-HKG total market size of 293,000 pax, the market share split was as follows:

CX 48%
AC 42%
UA 7%
Others 3%

So unfortunately for you, AC will not and are currently not "being eaten up alive" on the YYZ-HKG route. In fact credit should go more to AC here because they are operating this route using a smaller 260 seater B777-200LR versus CX who use a 360 seater B777-300ER !

Sorry, I am not in the center of the universe, I am in YVR - should have been clearer thats what I was referring to when this seat plan becomes the inevitable across the fleet.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-07 22:36:39 and read 22370 times.

Forget the heads. Competition for overhead bins is going to be a contact sport!

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: Skydrol
Posted 2013-02-07 23:10:34 and read 22010 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 112):
Forget the heads. Competition for overhead bins is going to be a contact sport!

While the overhead space will create chaos during boarding, the lack of lavatories is ignorant, irresponsible and unsafe. For safety, Air Canada (and other airlines) recommend passengers remain in their seats with their seat belts fastened, even without the fasten seatbelt light on. But with this super-high density 777 layout, significanty raising the passenger to lav ratio, increasing both the number of passengers standing in line ups, and the length of time they will be standing. And these flights are expected to be operated trans-pacific, where sudden, severe turbulence has been known to happen? Wow, what a great idea!




✈ LD4 ✈

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: AirbusA6
Posted 2013-02-08 02:26:50 and read 20359 times.

It's a strange world where you end up with more room and/or a wider aisle on an A320 on a 2 hour hop than on a wide body doing 8-12 hour flights 

Unless I know an airline has 9Y 777s, it's getting to the stage where I will soon have to make sure my flights aren't on that plane, which is a shame.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: abrelosojos
Posted 2013-02-08 04:31:19 and read 19566 times.

Amazing isn't it. When you have poor service and bad employee morale, no matter what you do, it turns negative. I can't believe the difference in the 2 results in Canada.

AC Loss: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...oss-on-increase-in-passengers.html

WS Record Profit (Again): http://business.financialpost.com/20...71-profit-leap-beats-expectations/

AC's sub par management needs to go. Why have the same team lead key commercial planning and sales teams when they make losses? RM is good at AC; but their network choices remain uninspiring.

Saludos,
A.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: LondonCity
Posted 2013-02-08 06:21:16 and read 19343 times.

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 114):
Unless I know an airline has 9Y 777s, it's getting to the stage where I will soon have to make sure my flights aren't on that plane, which is a shame.

There are still some 9-abreast B777 certainties like BA, JAL, CX, SQ and UA. But for how much longer ?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2013-02-08 06:29:25 and read 19268 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 97):

Fair enough, but if they're connecting onto other flights, AC's pricing flexibility is still limited by how much or how little a partner airline is willing to charge - an issue which AF/KL doesn't face. Will LH be happy to sell seats to AC at cut rate prices when it can command more on a route?

Quoting DavidCA (Reply 104):

I was thinking Rouge long term, not Rouge as it is now (4 aircraft). Many EU leisure routes will end up becoming Rouge 767 destinations, no? Putting a 77H on Florida will be quite a sight.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 105):

The issue a lot of posters are alluding to is the sharp degradation of this so-called 'mainline' product even as the LCC line is rolled out. This 77H is actually more uncomfortable than the 767s that will go to Rouge, which begs the question: how much are they going to gut the Rouge product to allow AC mainline to maintain its distinctness. If these 77Hs go to Rouge, then those concerns will be moot, but if this is the way AC is going on mainline, then Rouge ... I shudder to think what it will become.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 115):

To be fair, AC's service from check in to deboarding is relatively smooth (baggage reclaim being the exception - its awfully slow at times). It's the very poor value-for-money component and the utterly disingenuous handling of IRROPS (think poorly informed ground staff and deliberate obfuscation by customer service) that grates us the most.

That said, AC's value for money ex -US is very good compared to its ex-Canada fares. It all boils down to competition. Open Canada's skies and watch AC whip itself into shape. Or so we hope. Management has been nothing short of atrocious - after objecting to ME carriers on the grounds that they would cost Canada 10,000 aviation jobs, AC has somehow contrived to eliminate 2000+ high skilled jobs anyway, which isn't helping perception much.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: flyyul
Posted 2013-02-08 06:45:38 and read 19260 times.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 115):
AC's sub par management needs to go. Why have the same team lead key commercial planning and sales teams when they make losses? RM is good at AC; but their network choices remain uninspiring.

Saludos,
A.

I'm sorry Abrelosojos. Did you want us to launch Whitehorse - Paris service? I would love to hear your views on our uninspiring network  

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: AirCanada787
Posted 2013-02-08 08:08:51 and read 19009 times.

Quoting Carfield (Reply 102):
However I like the Power Port installation, but I am curious if Y will at least power port or USB port now or an improved PTV!

In Y AC already has power ports, usually two for every three seats or when there are just groupings of two seats at every seat. Every seat also has a USB port.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: 9252fly
Posted 2013-02-08 09:07:55 and read 18904 times.

Quoting questions (Reply 110):
Six lavs for 458 passengers?

Looking at the seat map,I'll guess that each lavatory position has more than one. Typically it's at least two,or possibly four depending on the location in the cabin.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2013-02-08 09:45:02 and read 18782 times.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 41):
If the AC Y+ cabin works out cheaper via SYD and YVR to North America with a good offering then AC could very well be getting my North American business.

If you go that way, become an Aeroplan member as well - it's a 'real' FF program that's much better than NZ's, with rewards/upgrades that you can actually use.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 41):
thankfully the Y+ cabin is getting a change

It's certainly not currently worth the premium, which is a pity as YOW-YVR-AKL is the best route for me, but the 772 does YVR-AKL.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: StarAC17
Posted 2013-02-08 09:47:16 and read 18777 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 117):
The issue a lot of posters are alluding to is the sharp degradation of this so-called 'mainline' product even as the LCC line is rolled out.

People have decided with their wallets that being cramped for 8 hours is worth saving $50 also if you hop on EK you have the same layout on a 77W and so do many other airlines.

The elasticity of demand on airline tickets is one of the highest for any given consumer product and unless that trend changes this is what airlines are going to do in order to stay competitive. A fare difference of even $10 means a potential customer is not flying AC and going with a competitor or vice-versa.

Perhaps niche airlines will emerge in the future to fill that gap of people wanting a decent Y class but it will be somewhat limited.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 117):
Open Canada's skies and watch AC whip itself into shape. Or so we hope.

I know you don't want to believe it but AC has competition on many of its routes and more airlines are or will be coming in, especially from Asia.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2013-02-08 10:07:52 and read 18727 times.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 122):

The comparison with EK is a bit odd. Last I heard, they have 33"+ legroom in Y to compensate for seat width. AC has actually reduced its seat pitch. Throw in catering and IFE and it's pretty clear that the comparison does not hold. Simply put, EK offers a superior product in every respect. You would be better off comparing AC with AA - they're roughly the same level now.

As for competition, prices ex-Canada speak for themself. High prices = low competition. Low prices = high competition. I don't think it's any great secret that prices ex-Canada are amongst the highest in the world in comparison to flights of similar duration elsewhere. However I accept that my views on Canada's competitiveness are likely only limited to those of us who have lived/travelled outside Canada on our own dime and have a frame of reference that we can use to gauge the value an airfare gives us.

When the prices start looking like the rest of the world, I will admit that Canada is as competitive as the rest of the world. Wouldn't hold my breath though.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: gingersnap
Posted 2013-02-08 10:11:52 and read 18714 times.

Seems AC are going to need bigger aircraft. I doubt a VLA order is on the cards however.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2013-02-08 10:14:23 and read 18717 times.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 122):

The comparison with EK is a bit odd. Last I heard, they have 33"+ legroom in Y to compensate for seat width. AC has actually reduced its seat pitch. Throw in catering and IFE and it's pretty clear that the comparison does not hold. Simply put, EK offers a superior product in every respect. You would be better off comparing AC with AA - they're roughly the same level now.

FWIW, I eagerly await the day AC actually starts offering EK prices (although the value for money proposition will still be weaker - what with paying an EK fare for a subpar product).

As for competition, prices ex-Canada speak for themself. High prices = low competition. Low prices = high competition. I don't think it's any great secret that prices ex-Canada are amongst the highest in the world in comparison to flights of similar duration elsewhere. However I accept that my views on Canada's competitiveness are likely only limited to those of us who have lived/travelled outside Canada on our own dime and have a frame of reference that we can use to gauge the value an airfare gives us.

When the prices start looking like the rest of the world, I will admit that Canada is as competitive as the rest of the world. Wouldn't hold my breath though.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: StarAC17
Posted 2013-02-08 10:41:34 and read 18658 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 123):
I don't think it's any great secret that prices ex-Canada are amongst the highest in the world in comparison to flights of similar duration elsewhere.

Flight length has nothing to do with price its all about supply and demand at the end of the day and what the market can support. In terms of flights to Europe and the US any airline at any time can challenge AC on any of its routes if they feel that they are raking it in. The biggest reason that prices in Canada are higher are taxes, and the fact that there isn't simply the market size to add a large amount of competition in sustainable manner (they all will lose money).

It sucks but Canada has 34 million people in such a large area and the US has 312 million people in a slightly smaller area and we just don't have the market size to get those economies of scale that the US enjoys. This isn't just limited to airlines but most consumer products.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 123):
The comparison with EK is a bit odd. Last I heard, they have 33"+ legroom in Y to compensate for seat width. AC has actually reduced its seat pitch.

Fair point, I would referring to the 3-4-3 in Y on a 77W. Also EK could never do this because if they put 450 seats in a 77W and wanted to fly it to North America or Australia it would be well over its MTOW.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: flyboy22
Posted 2013-02-08 12:06:17 and read 18534 times.

Glad to see this change to AC's 77W's. The herringbone layout of the Executive First cabin was a nuisance, especially when trying to chat with another passenger, and although the staggered layout offers less privacy, it's much more convienient when traveling with family or friends.

Also nice to see that the gap between Y and J has been bridged with Y+, although 24 seats is unrealistic if AC expects to make a niche market out of this. Presumably it's for the upgraders.

The only low note with the new layout is the Y configuration. 3-4-3 is a tight squeeze and going from a 32" pitch to a 31" pitch is disappointing.

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, although an article by Canada Newswire also announced that the cabin will feature refreshed modern, neutral tones. Hope to see this fleetwide - the old seat covers were hideous.

Here's a link to the article:
http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/1110...7-300er-aircraft-to-mainline-fleet

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2013-02-08 12:29:06 and read 18407 times.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 126):

I don't think airport taxes explain it all away. It's not that airlines aren't taking it on Canada - it's more that they have to use their resources carefully. This is, of course, completely acceptable until you get situations like ET and TK who do want to dedicate resources here are stopped from doing so, which throws that supply and demand argument off kilter. It's not competitive precisely because supply and demand are not allowed to work out their own dynamic. While any EU airline can fly to Canada, the fact that they don't consider it worthwhile is not indicative of the Canadian market - there are airlines that do find it worthwhile. Ultimately, competition requires that demand and supply be allowed to interact, but that's not the case. FWIW, i honestly doubt that the taxes account for the majority of the 20% + fare discrepancies. The UK has the worst taxes by far, but there are better deals to be had from there than here.

As for 'not enough room to add more competition - they will all lose money' - that is a very odd thing to say. The entire benefit of competition is its ability to root out inefficiency. Poor products will disappear. Sound products will survive. The point of competition is not to foster token competition (how's that working out in telecoms here in Canada?) - the point is to award suppliers who provide what the consumer wants. And force those who don't to get on with it. As the AF/KL country head in Canada so succinctly put it at yet another Senate hearing, the IATA chief compared Australia and Canada and came to the conclusion that Australia was outperforming Canada in every aspect, but we did trump them on airport taxes. Australia, as I recall, is a country with just 2/3rds our population.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-08 12:46:39 and read 18359 times.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 93):
Currently it's impossible to upgrade from Y to O using E-upgrades.
Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 93):
Of course, this may change with time. However, I'm afraid that the rare op-ups will be now to O instead of J.

AC's way of ensuring that elites will pay to play aerolotto on 77H routes. No more booking Flex fares to get an upgrade. PE fares will now be the minimum price of admission to the game. And just to incentivize elites to play, they'll make sure that the Y cabin is a little less bearable.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-08 12:55:38 and read 18325 times.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 126):
It sucks but Canada has 34 million people in such a large area and the US has 312 million people in a slightly smaller area and we just don't have the market size to get those economies of scale that the US enjoys. This isn't just limited to airlines but most consumer products.

This BS gets thrown out everytime to defend companies from Air Canada to the Robellus telecom oligopoly.

It's nonsense.

Canada may have a small population, but it's concentrated in dense pockets. Southern Ontario is as dense as many parts of Europe. Ditto for the Southwestern BC or the St. Lawrence corridor in Eastern Ontario and Quebec.

And if local population size is relevant, why is it that SQ, EK, EY, and CX are all so successful?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: StarAC17
Posted 2013-02-08 13:02:27 and read 18287 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 128):
how's that working out in telecoms here in Canada?

If you look at their bottom lines, really well.

Also the free market is the reason that the telecommunications industry in Canada is overpriced as the big 3 gobble up the competitors and Canadians are demanding the government to reign in very anti-competitive practices.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 128):
the IATA chief compared Australia and Canada and came to the conclusion that Australia was outperforming Canada in every aspect, but we did trump them on airport taxes.

In what regard?

I do know that QF's international product bleeds money which is why they eventually signed a deal with EK. Something I think AC should do with EK and EY and serve DXB or AUH and complement the current capacity restrictions.

With the airlines working together it might entice the government to add capacity for the gulf carriers.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 128):
I don't think airport taxes explain it all away.

Never said it did, but I would reckon if you looked at a lot of similar distance fares without taxes included and well served routes you wouldn't see much of a difference.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 128):
This is, of course, completely acceptable until you get situations like ET and TK who do want to dedicate resources here are stopped from doing so, which throws that supply and demand argument off kilter.

Show me evidence that they have lobbied for more frequencies and been denied by the government.

Regarding TK I would think with AC starting IST in the spring/summer of this year and with both airlines being in *A there is a capacity increase as both airlines will codeshare with each other and have pretty consistent fares.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 128):
As for 'not enough room to add more competition - they will all lose money' - that is a very odd thing to say. The entire benefit of competition is its ability to root out inefficiency. Poor products will disappear. Sound products will survive.

I know this but has it occurred to you that in the largest air travel sections in and out of Canada that an effective equilibrium price is reached and you are upset because that price is above what you think should be acceptable.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: yyz717
Posted 2013-02-08 13:15:55 and read 18256 times.

Quoting Carfield (Reply 102):
Maybe I am old school - but I really feel that full service airlines should not go the LCC track. Ten abreast in 777s are reserved for charter and LCC airlines, not for full service airlines.

As Mark (flyyul) said, the industry is being commoditized. There is really no such thing a full service carrier anymore, nor such a thing as an LCC. They are blending into each other in terms of service offerings and service standards. Westjet (a former and arguably current LCC) has Y service as good if not better than AC, for instance. Same with WN over UA, AA etc etc etc.

AC's primary (but not sole) competition is actually WS (an LCC with good service) on shorthaul routes and TS (yes, Air Transat) on the LH routes. So AC is correct to "pack em in" in Y. Anyone who doesn't like it, can either not travel or fly F or Y+. Air travel is always voluntary.....anyone who doesn't like the new 77W layout can choose to avoid it.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 125):
I don't think it's any great secret that prices ex-Canada are amongst the highest in the world in comparison to flights of similar duration elsewhere.

I don't think so. I just did some sample fare comparisons on expedia for a few Asians and EU destinations from YYZ, BOS, and EWR -- YYZ fares were comparable.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 115):
Amazing isn't it. When you have poor service and bad employee morale, no matter what you do, it turns negative. I can't believe the difference in the 2 results in Canada.

AC Loss: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...oss-on-increase-in-passengers.html

WS Record Profit (Again): http://business.financialpost.com/20...71-profit-leap-beats-expectations/

AC's sub par management needs to go.

The market agrees with you -- the stock price is still down about 90% from the IPO.

Quoting questions (Reply 110):
Six lavs for 458 passengers? On a long haul flight? Gross.

That is gross. Very gross. Even for large bladder sailors such as me who are used to having no facilities nearby. Perhaps 458 members of AC mgmt should fly the new 6-lav layout on a 12-hour flight together sometime and see how much they like it (and each other, afterwards).

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-08 13:18:32 and read 18274 times.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 122):
People have decided with their wallets that being cramped for 8 hours is worth saving $50 also if you hop on EK you have the same layout on a 77W and so do many other airlines.

Have you actually flown EK? They had seatback IFE nearly a decade and a half before AC. Their food and drinks are top notch. I haven't flown them in a few years. But when I last flew them, they used to have a drink menu for Y pax. And I mean actual cocktails. Today, they sell champagne in Y on request.

http://www.emirates.com/english/flying/dining/economy_class.aspx
http://www.emirates.com/english/flying/dining/wines.aspx

Show me an AC menu that comes close.

They have a multi-national and as a result, multi-lingual staff that can cater to passengers in half a dozen or more languages usually (with a varying mix on different routes). And the staff are young and attractive (native-born Canadians really underestimate the value of this for people from the old country).

And most importantly, 33" pitch. Air Canada is now giving TATL pax only 1" more pitch than Ryanair and a fraction of an inch more in seat width. Ponder that.

Oh, and EK is not always the cheapest fare. Actually, they rarely are. AI or SU are usually cheaper. But EK's service has earned a strong reputation among South Asians, to the point that most are willing to pay more to travel on EK.

Here's the thing. Most assume that it's about fares for South Asia VFR. And to some extent it is. But a lot of it is about perceived value. And very few people have issues paying $100 more to travel on EK because the perceived value is there. AC on the other hand? Many South Asians I know are starting to associate AC with the same image they have of Air India: state-run airline that offers sub-par and unreliable service. Some of that is unfair myth-building to AC. But when you put up AC to EK, unfortunately, that's the idea that most South Asians have of AC.

Oh and it doesn't help that AC for the longest time would dump South Asia bound pax on to LH at FRA, who then put them on 744s without IFE for another 8-10 hours. People remember stuff like that.

Unfortunately AC, EK, 9W, EY and QR have strong brands, which are only getting stronger in key markets (like Indo-Canadians traveling to South Asia). AC is going to have a tough time winning them back. And $50 or $100 less isn't going to get them to switch. But good luck to AC if management really thinks that's what will do it.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-08 13:20:22 and read 18248 times.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 131):
Also the free market is the reason that the telecommunications industry in Canada is overpriced as the big 3 gobble up the competitors and Canadians are demanding the government to reign in very anti-competitive practices.

You're losing credibility. Canada has a free market for telecom?

Why is it that the government won't allow 100% foreign owned telecom operators in here? No Vodafone, T-Mobile, Orange or AT&T.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-02-08 13:43:18 and read 18141 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 24):
Considering how cheap flights are versus 30 years ago

Is there a site or chart that we could see and compare?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: StarAC17
Posted 2013-02-08 13:47:07 and read 18141 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 134):
Why is it that the government won't allow 100% foreign owned telecom operators in here? No Vodafone, T-Mobile, Orange or AT&T.

Fair point but that also goes both ways, does the UK and the US allow our companies to operate there?

Let them in on the condition that our companies operate can operate in their countries.

Quoting ytz (Reply 133):
Have you actually flown EK? They had seatback IFE nearly a decade and a half before AC. Their food and drinks are top notch. I haven't flown them in a few years. But when I last flew them, they used to have a drink menu for Y pax. And I mean actual cocktails. Today, they sell champagne in Y on request.

I haven't flown EK but I have flown other airlines that gets probably higher ratings than AC which are QF and NZ and I'm not arguing the point about quality of service.

My point is that the public at large will take the best deal over what the service is. Look at the US when WN came into the market, you knew what you were going to get with WN and would get better service with the legacies and who's product today is the standard among North American travel.

In Australia Jetstar and Virgin are the model for domestic routes as well which have the same LCC model as WN.

There is a tipping point where people will decide with their wallets and perhaps it isn't $50 as I mentioned earlier but the economics says that air travel is incredibly price sensitive.


Quoting yyz717 (Reply 132):
AC's primary (but not sole) competition is actually WS (an LCC with good service) on shorthaul routes and TS (yes, Air Transat) on the LH routes. So AC is correct to "pack em in" in Y. Anyone who doesn't like it, can either not travel or fly F or Y+. Air travel is always voluntary.....anyone who doesn't like the new 77W layout can choose to avoid it.

  

You can pay more for the competitor who gives the nice pitch in economy and if I were going to Australia I would take UA with no seatback IFE over this AC layout but for Europe I could deal with this.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: LanPeru
Posted 2013-02-08 14:18:33 and read 18055 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 40):
Having flown on a ten abreast Emirates model, I realised that unless you're, well shall we actually say fat, it's fine.
For an economy product, for what we pay, it's perfectly acceptable, for those who want more, pay more.

I LOVE the honesty here. It's so true. LOL. I am big but not so big that I spill into your seat or that I need an extension...

Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 49):
I beg to differ. I'm not fat, but large (6'3" / 200 lbs). I have broad shoulders, which I can't do anything about, even if I lost 50 pounds. On the 9W 77Ws I flew LHR-BOM and DEL-LHR, the flights were extremely uncomfortable. My shoulder protruded about 2-3 inches into the aisle, and I was being bumped by pax and trollies the entire flight. If I was in a middle or window seat, I'd be significantly invading the personal space of the pax next to me.

I am about the same size, however I am only 6'1 but 250...here is the point. If I am a big person, then it's almost like you have to expect to be uncomfortable. If I am flying, I still get excited to fly on a plane but I accept that I will be somewhat UNcomfortable especially in economy. The longest I have flown was 13hrs, and I was in a middle seat of 2-4-2 on LAN with decent pitch, but I was still uncomfortable because it was a long trip.

Here is the point, and I think it is like the VFR mentality or something: "I will endure this flight, which is just a few HOURS out of the DAYS or WEEKS that I will be doing everything else that makes it a vacation/trip!!" T

he only thing that I really would really complain about is that even with the 3-4-3 on the 777 or (in LAN's case 3-3-3 on the 787) fares DON'T drop. In the end, as much as I LOVE to fly and still get into the planning and all that before the trip...I just look at it as another form of public transit. If they told me I could sit in the cargo hold (and not freeze to death of course) I'd bring my own food and my own entertainment...AS LONG AS I GET THERE!

I think that if more seats are available, and it means lower fares, this is a GREAT change.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-08 14:50:50 and read 17969 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 128):
the IATA chief compared Australia and Canada and came to the conclusion that Australia was outperforming Canada in every aspect, but we did trump them on airport taxes. Australia, as I recall, is a country with just 2/3rds our population.

You can't compare Australia with Canada due to the very different geography. To go anywhere from Australia you have to fly. There's nothing comparable to the huge and highly-competitive Canada-U.S. transborder market where you also have the option of driving or using other modes of surface transportation.

Quoting flyboy22 (Reply 127):
3-4-3 is a tight squeeze and going from a 32" pitch to a 31" pitch is disappointing.
Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 123):
AC has actually reduced its seat pitch

The new thin-back seats often have more effective legroom at 31" than the old bulkier seats did at 33". Comparing pitch alone isn't very meaningful.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 117):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 97):

Fair enough, but if they're connecting onto other flights, AC's pricing flexibility is still limited by how much or how little a partner airline is willing to charge - an issue which AF/KL doesn't face. Will LH be happy to sell seats to AC at cut rate prices when it can command more on a route?

AC/LH have had a revenue/profit-sharing joint venture for years. Everything, including pricing, is coordinated and as far as I know it makes no difference whether you're on an AC or LH aircraft.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: pnwtraveler
Posted 2013-02-08 15:24:34 and read 17863 times.

Wow. A lot of discussion for 5 aircraft. Clearly seems that these are for high volume lower yield routes that are not long distance but are too valuable to go all LCC/Rouge. If AC is correct, the 787 will launch a new product (about a year away). That product will go into the existing 777's. It will be interesting to see what routes they will be put on. Many airlines have multiple configurations of 777's and other aircraft. Again the bulk of flyers don't give a rats patootie as long as they got a good fare. AC will know quickly how successful the product is on the route. Better to loose a few primadonna flyers (who are the vast minority) and fly profitably, then to try to please everybody and lose money. AC has always been one of the last to squeeze their cabins.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: DavidCA
Posted 2013-02-08 15:31:09 and read 17843 times.

Quoting ytz,reply=133And the staff are young and attractive (native-born Canadians really underestimate the value of this for people from the old country).:

Who cares? Maybe people who think that employers here Canada should be able to discriminate based on age, gender, attractiveness etc the way Emirates apparently does should have stayed in the "old country". We don't do that in Canada.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: anrec80
Posted 2013-02-08 18:22:27 and read 17540 times.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 101):
So unfortunately for you, AC will not and are currently not "being eaten up alive" on the YYZ-HKG route. In fact credit should go more to AC here because they are operating this route using a smaller 260 seater B777-200LR versus CX who use a 360 seater B777-300ER !

It's because their 77L doesn't have 10-abreast yet. Let's see if this stands once they actually put 10-abreast into 77L on like 15 hr flight.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: chrisa330
Posted 2013-02-08 18:30:52 and read 17519 times.

Quoting anrec80 (Reply 141):
It's because their 77L doesn't have 10-abreast yet. Let's see if this stands once they actually put 10-abreast into 77L on like 15 hr flight.

The 10 abreast config is not making it's way into the rest of the fleet. It's meant for specific markets only.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2013-02-08 19:15:29 and read 17415 times.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 131):
If you look at their bottom lines, really well.

A pleasant side effect for companies operating in oligopoly situations. It would take quite some doing for them not to be profitable.

In any event, Canadian koolaid is good and all, but its not accurate. To put things in perspective:
.
"You need to ask yourself, why isn't Rogers in the U.K., like Vodafone or France Telecom," he said.

"Why aren't they everywhere if they're so good? The answer is simple, here they're protected. They can be inefficient, their cost structure can be expensive."

'He' is Naguib Sawiris, the Egyptian backer of Wind Mobile. Think he might know a thing or two about the industry?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/story/2011/11/17/f-naguib-sawiris.html

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 131):
Also the free market is the reason that the telecommunications industry in Canada is overpriced as the big 3 gobble up the competitors and Canadians are demanding the government to reign in very anti-competitive practices.

Umm... again, I ll let that chap do the talking

Canada is the only country in the world, besides China, that hasn't opened up to foreign direct investment for foreign capital, Sawiris said. "I don't know why Canada wants to be matched with China," he said. "There's only two countries [with] very ridiculous old laws, and nothing is happening."

"There's no real political will here to introduce competition into this closed market," he said.

I don't know what rationale you're using to call Canada a 'free market' for telecoms. What we do have is a handful of companies that have very good balance sheets, but then again, in oligopolistic conditions, who wouldn't? Needless to say, unlike the big telecom players in other countries, none of these companies dare set up shop outside Canada for one simple reason - they can't compete. Which is a nice way of saying they aren't very good, even if they do well in captive markets. Notice a theme here? Protected markets with poor products perhaps?


Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 131):
In what regard?

"The IATA secretary general recently compared Canada and Australia, countries that have similar air transportation needs. The results were self-explanatory. Australian air transportation finished ahead across the board in terms of growth and quality. The only category in which Canadian air transportation rated higher was airport taxes."
Fabien Pelous, Vice-President and Chief Executive Officer, Air France-KLM in Canada

http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/sen/committee/411/TRCM/13EV-49827-E.HTM

All regards by the sounds of it.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 131):
I do know that QF's international product bleeds money which is why they eventually signed a deal with EK. Something I think AC should do with EK and EY and serve DXB or AUH and complement the current capacity restrictions.

Don't think AC would risk upsetting LH like that. But in principle, I agree.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 131):
Show me evidence that they have lobbied for more frequencies and been denied by the government.Regarding TK I would think with AC starting IST in the spring/summer of this year and with both airlines being in *A there is a capacity increase as both airlines will codeshare with each other and have pretty consistent fares.

Theres a lot of stuff posted in the ET Canada thread, including quotes by the ET CEO. TK wants to open up YUL but can't even get daily to YYZ three-four years after starting service here. Unfortunately, for all our commitment to democracy, its nigh on impossible to find out who our air negotiator is meeting with and what is being said. I can't see AC matching TK on prices.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 131):
I know this but has it occurred to you that in the largest air travel sections in and out of Canada that an effective equilibrium price is reached and you are upset because that price is above what you think should be acceptable.

In a globalized world, paying $1.50 for a product that costs $1.25 everywhere else in the world is not just unacceptable - its plain stupid. If we're trying to compete on a global scale (and our PMs globetrotting ways suggest we are) we might have to be a lot more efficient at home. And that won't work if we keep paying more than what our competitors pay for the same product/service.

So yes, I find it unacceptable. But not just for myself. I find it unacceptable on a national scale. Nor am I being unreasonable - as is best evidenced by the Senate's recent report comparing the price of goods in Canada and the US. I suppose theres two ways to look at it - you can be happy with what you have and not look into it any further. Or you can study it and figure out a way to improve it. If we can do it in retail, we should be able to do it in aviation too, no?

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 136):
Fair point but that also goes both ways, does the UK and the US allow our companies to operate there?

 

US Telecoms

T-Mobile - T Mobile AG (Germany)
Tracfone - America Movil (Mexico)
Verizon - 45% owned by Vodafone (UK)
Sprint Nextel (Softbank Japan will complete a deal for a 70% stake in 2013)

UK
Orange - France
T-Mobile - Germany
O2 - Spain
Hutchison - Hong Kong

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 136):
Let them in on the condition that our companies operate can operate in their countries.

Canadian telecom companies are allowed to operate in their countries. They don't bother because they would get chewed up and spit out.

I really don't know what kind of alternative reality some people think Canada exists in.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 138):
You can't compare Australia with Canada due to the very different geography. To go anywhere from Australia you have to fly. There's nothing comparable to the huge and highly-competitive Canada-U.S. transborder market where you also have the option of driving or using other modes of surface transportation.

I've heard that a million times on this board, but for whatever reason, the IATA Sec General and now the AF/KL country head for Canada feel that it is an appropriate comparison. I don't know what horse the IATA Sec Gen has in the race, but I think I'm increasingly inclined to trust his and the AF guy's judgment on this. You can make any number of excuses, but to the few folk who are clued in, these excuses clearly don't amount to much.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 138):
The new thin-back seats often have more effective legroom at 31" than the old bulkier seats did at 33". Comparing pitch alone isn't very meaningful.

If they put plastic fold up chairs, then the effective legroom would be even more. No matter how you spin it, there is a loss in comfort. Those thin back seats are compromising comfort one way or the other. You can't replace a padded chair with bench and insist that the comfort level is exactly the same. Something has got to give. In this case, its comfort.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2013-02-08 19:18:00 and read 17452 times.

Quoting chrisa330 (Reply 142):
The 10 abreast config is not making it's way into the rest of the fleet. It's meant for specific markets only.

If AC goes 3-3-3 on the 787 (and they have explicitly stated that they are considering it), then its only a matter of time before this config makes it way into the rest of the fleet - probably around the same time as AC introduces its 787 and new J cabin. Can't see them going 2-4-2 like JAL or NH...not after these 777s.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: yyz717
Posted 2013-02-08 20:44:04 and read 17276 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 133):
They have a multi-national and as a result, multi-lingual staff that can cater to passengers in half a dozen or more languages usually (with a varying mix on different routes).

Sounds democratic and peaceful/friendly, but EK is based in a country with some of the world's worst human rights abuses: endemic discrimination against women, gays, Jews. Why is Canada even allowing EK ANY landing rights in Canada? Dubai does not share our values.....we do not need to trade with this barbaric nation.

Quoting ytz (Reply 133):
And the staff are young and attractive

And in 30 years......these same EK FA's will be old and overweight and unattractive....or will they have long since been fired? AC cannot fire old FA's and only hire young and attractive ones....we have labour laws preventing this and our country respects humans rights.

Quoting ytz (Reply 133):
Oh and it doesn't help that AC for the longest time would dump South Asia bound pax on to LH at FRA, who then put them on 744s without IFE for another 8-10 hours. People remember stuff like that.

It doesn't sound like such a bad way of travelling from Canada to India. AC and LH provide good service.

Quoting ytz (Reply 133):
Unfortunately AC, EK, 9W, EY and QR have strong brands, which are only getting stronger in key markets (like Indo-Canadians traveling to South Asia). AC is going to have a tough time winning them back.

South Asia is really not a key market for AC, and likely never will be. AC's key markets today are the same as they were 40 years ago: YYZ-YUL/YVR/YYC/LGA/LHR etc etc. .....and in 2050, AC's key markets will likely be the same....

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 143):
Unfortunately, for all our commitment to democracy, its nigh on impossible to find out who our air negotiator is meeting with and what is being said. I can't see AC matching TK on prices.

I wish democracy WOULD dictate what our air negotiators did....airlines from barbarcic, undemocratic nations such as the UAE, Pakistan, Egypt, China, Turkey etc etc would all be banned from Cdn airports (until their governments improved their human rights records).

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 139):
Wow. A lot of discussion for 5 aircraft.

ah....so it's only the 5 new 77W's that are getting the 3-4-3-6 treatment (ie, 3-4-3 across with 6 lavs). So the remaining 12 77W's and the 77L fleet will remain.....civilized.

Quoting DavidCA (Reply 140):
Quoting ytz,reply=133And the staff are young and attractive (native-born Canadians really underestimate the value of this for people from the old country).:

Who cares? Maybe people who think that employers here Canada should be able to discriminate based on age, gender, attractiveness etc the way Emirates apparently does should have stayed in the "old country". We don't do that in Canada.

Well said. Id rather be served by an ugly 55yo AC FA whose human rights are upheld by federal government standards than by some smokin' hot 25yo EK FA who was hired for his/her looks and will be fired in 10 years for getting old.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: Skydrol
Posted 2013-02-08 21:07:39 and read 17191 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 145):
ah....so it's only the 5 new 77W's that are getting the 3-4-3-6 treatment (ie, 3-4-3 across with 6 lavs). So the remaining 12 77W's and the 77L fleet will remain.....civilized.

That may be the case, for now... but the concern is it will likely set a precedent.

And while a few have commented 6 lavs for 400 passengers would be 'gross', I believe the increased potential for injury in case of unexpected clear air turbulence with more passengers standing in line for longer periods of time far outweighs concerns of trashed, filthy lavs or bladder discomfort from longer than normal wait times. (regardless if there will only be 5 airplanes with this pathetic layout)




✈ LD4 ✈

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: na
Posted 2013-02-09 01:38:30 and read 16963 times.

I think the fact that the 777 is so easily possible to be turned into the tightest sardine can is a major factor for some airlines when deciding to buy, surely its high on the list when beancounters propose it to their board. Sad for us passengers...

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 145):
Id rather be served by an ugly 55yo AC FA whose human rights are upheld by federal government standards than by some smokin' hot 25yo EK FA who was hired for his/her looks and will be fired in 10 years for getting old.

Fully agree here...

...but a cattle car 777 will never see me on board.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: nrt1011
Posted 2013-02-09 03:59:18 and read 16785 times.

Good news to hear the AC 77L's will stay 3-3-3, I travel the YYZ-SYD route often and I sure would not like to be 10 abreast on the YVR-SYD leg.

I assume the SQ's 777's are 3-3-3, I hope so, I fly SYD-LHR with them in a few weeks (380 coming back). Let's keep it 3-3-3 for those long distance ones please

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2013-02-09 05:22:01 and read 16592 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 145):
It doesn't sound like such a bad way of travelling from Canada to India. AC and LH provide good service.

Compared to the alternatives on the route (particularly the ones who can't seem to get daily frequencies to one city four years in), the products in Y are middling-to-poor. Its not bad service. Its just either on par or worse than most, if not all, of the other airlines operating Canada->east of Europe.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 145):
South Asia is really not a key market for AC, and likely never will be.

Amen. However, India is a key market for LH. And we all know who wears the pants in the AC/LH relationship. After all, its the India/South Asia angle that the ME3 threaten LH on.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 145):

I wish democracy WOULD dictate what our air negotiators did....airlines from barbarcic, undemocratic nations such as the UAE, Pakistan, Egypt, China, Turkey etc etc would all be banned from Cdn airports (until their governments improved their human rights records).

League of Democracies! All for it. Don't think AC, TS or Sunwing are though. If you take China and the majority of sun destinations (Central America, Cuba etc) out of the equation, not to mention a couple of Latin American countries for good measure, I think you'll find the airlines will not be happy at all.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 145):
Well said. Id rather be served by an ugly 55yo AC FA whose human rights are upheld by federal government standards than by some smokin' hot 25yo EK FA who was hired for his/her looks and will be fired in 10 years for getting old.

Would this be the same 55 y/o FA whose right to engage in collective bargaining was given short shrift by the Government? Or would it be the one who had to take her employer to arbitration to stop them from degrading working conditions? Or would it be the one whose pension outlook looks dodgy because AC now wants the Govt to limit its contribution to the pension fund - which the Govt will probably do?

Incidentally, ever notice how some stores here in Canada only hire young, good looking women? Is that discrimination? Or does it not qualify as discrimination simply because companies come up with creative ways to screen out older/unattractive applicants. For all EK's 'unfair' policies, they are pretty honest about what they're looking for: 'non-careerists' who want to see a bit of the world over a couple of years. The high turnover has costs associated with it as well. I half suspect EK folk will soon have better working conditions than new recruits at Rouge.

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 146):
That may be the case, for now... but the concern is it will likely set a precedent.

The 3-4-3 all but confirms the likelihood of a 3-3-3 787, and once they go down that route, the upcoming cabin 'refresh' thats associated with the induction of the 787 will probably see 3-4-3 rolled out on the 777 whenever they go through their J, Y+ makeover.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2013-02-09 06:18:06 and read 16509 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 143):
Unfortunately, for all our commitment to democracy, its nigh on impossible to find out who our air negotiator is meeting with and what is being said.

You can keep repeating this all you like, but international relations and negotiations (like Cabinet meetings) are not going to be conducted in public. It's not a Canadian thing - the countries we're negotiating with wouldn't accept it either.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2013-02-09 06:50:19 and read 16415 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 150):
You can keep repeating this all you like, but international relations and negotiations (like Cabinet meetings) are not going to be conducted in public. It's not a Canadian thing - the countries we're negotiating with wouldn't accept it either.

It was in response to a demand to prove that TK and ET had asked for more frequencies, not a standalone post in itself.

I simply pointed out that it is impossible to access those records for whatever reason. Why we can't know how many slots a country asks for (without divulging the reason behind providing or not providing it - God knows we love making opaque announcements about it) may or may not be a threat to national interests. I don't dispute that.

Take, for example, this gem of an opaque statement:

Saudi Arabia

December 28, 2012 – The amendments to the bilateral air transport agreement between Canada and Saudi Arabia, which were recently negotiated during the ICAO Air Services Negotiation Conference in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, will give additional flexibility for airlines of both countries to determine routings and pricing, and allow them to respond to market developments more rapidly.

http://www.international.gc.ca/trade...r-acc/facts-air-eclair.aspx?view=d

[Edited 2013-02-09 07:06:46]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-02-09 07:06:35 and read 16391 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 150):
You can keep repeating this all you like, but international relations and negotiations (like Cabinet meetings) are not going to be conducted in public. It's not a Canadian thing - the countries we're negotiating with wouldn't accept it either.

It's funny you should say this, as I keep seeing the same people repeating the same thing over and over, as if a discussion on here is going to change Governmental policy. I also notice that they tend to segue existing threads in that direction so that they can trot out the old arguments again.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 145):
so it's only the 5 new 77W's that are getting the 3-4-3-6 treatment (ie, 3-4-3 across with 6 lavs). So the remaining 12 77W's and the 77L fleet will remain.....civilized.

That is the plan, so far. When a demand for a low yield/high density ship for certain markets was realized, and with 5 B777s already coming, the decision made sense. YUL-CDG is prime for this type of configuration ... but I am curious where we will see the rest of the 5 fly.

Quoting na (Reply 147):
Fully agree here...

...but a cattle car 777 will never see me on board.

And that is it exactly. As, I have said above, I can't recall a cabin configuration change that was so "wrong" that business was lost. So it is unlikely you would ever find yourself on one of these ships, and if you did, (barring equipment substitutions) it is because you are flying in a market that dictates it.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 149):
Incidentally, ever notice how some stores here in Canada only hire young, good looking women? Is that discrimination?

As does AC. You should see the new-hire F/A's of which there are thousands! The difference is that AC can not fire them because they are old and ugly. And with Canadian labour laws, neither can the stores you mention.

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 146):
And while a few have commented 6 lavs for 400 passengers would be 'gross'

I am not sure about the 6 lavs. And the "drawing" above doesn't cut it. I am awaiting the revision to the B777 FCOM, with engineering plans of the new cabin until I believe it.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: chrisa330
Posted 2013-02-09 07:18:53 and read 16334 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 152):
am not sure about the 6 lavs. And the "drawing" above doesn't cut it. I am awaiting the revision to the B777 FCOM, with engineering plans of the new cabin until I believe it.

Exactly. The seatmap for the new config doesn't have the same detail as with other fleet types. With the exception of the lavs at the very back, each blue box on the seatmap represents at least two lavs - there could be three where the stand up bar used to be. So by my count, there are 10 lavs, maybe 11.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2013-02-09 07:24:20 and read 16347 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 152):
I also notice that they tend to segue existing threads in that direction so that they can trot out the old arguments again.

It isn't as tangential as you think.

AC takes out a high density 777.

This is done supposedly to compete with high density carriers like TS, who also offer lower prices.

AC claims this will allow it to offer lower prices, but the prices on YUL-CDG for the introduction of these aircraft look abotu the same as they do right now.

I think its fairly inevitable that the lack of downward movement on the prices will result in discussion, and I (quite explicitly) belong to the school of thought that says that prices are as much a function of competition as they are of anything else. You know, the whole demand/supply equilibrium and the need for letting suppliers adjust to the market unimpeded by artificial barriers.

And, of course, the other side of the usual suspects and I (and perhaps one or two who agree with me) point engage in exchanges about competition.

All of which is to say that if you roll out a high density 777 in Canada and link it to the need to offer lower prices without actually offering lower prices, its only inevitable that people will wonder why. Competition is inevitably a part of this equation. Now if we were discussing Australia or the US, it wouldn't be. But in Canada, it is. Make of that what you will.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 152):
That is the plan, so far. When a demand for a low yield/high density ship for certain markets was realized, and with 5 B777s already coming, the decision made sense. YUL-CDG is prime for this type of configuration ... but I am curious where we will see the rest of the 5 fly.

You don't think this is a precursor to 3-3-3 787s?

And FWIW, who is responsible for baggage handling at YUL - AC or YUL authorities?

Quoting longhauler (Reply 152):
The difference is that AC can not fire them because they are old and ugly.

No, but it shows them the door by making it quite clear that their jobs aren't sustainable in the long run. McDonalds doesn't fire people for getting old either - it just disincentivizes them from staying by offering the bare minumum, which, it appears, is what AC management wants to do.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-02-09 07:25:26 and read 16334 times.

Quoting chrisa330 (Reply 153):
Exactly. The seatmap for the new config doesn't have the same detail as with other fleet types. With the exception of the lavs at the very back, each blue box on the seatmap represents at least two lavs - there could be three where the stand up bar used to be. So by my count, there are 10 lavs, maybe 11.

That is what I find confusing with that "cartoon" posted. Behind the cockpit, the lav is blue, the galley is white, between rows 7 and 12, it is reversed, the galley is blue and the lavs are white. I am not sure what those blue blocks are at 29/31 and 45/50, are they lavs or are they galleys? Then in the tail, the galley is white with two lavs blue. What are those 4 white squares? I think people here are assuming they are lavs, when we know that one of them can be neither a lav nor galley as it is the entrance to the crew rest facility.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: chrisa330
Posted 2013-02-09 07:30:01 and read 16305 times.

On the fleetmap pages, the 'legend' says that blue = lavs which is what I was basing my count on. But you're right - it's not completely clear. Wondering...if AC is saying these won't be used on ultra long haul flying, will they be equipped with the overhead crew rest?

But seriously - as much as people want to slam AC for any decision they make - there is no way they would do 6 lavs on this aircraft. They even equipped the high density B767s with more than that...

[Edited 2013-02-09 07:35:26]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-02-09 07:44:15 and read 16293 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 154):
You don't think this is a precursor to 3-3-3 787s?

Actually, I think the biggest precursor to a 3-3-3 B787, is that it seems that it is how most are being delivered. Honestly, with the vast majority of new B787s having a 3-3-3 Y cabin, I would wonder more if AC's were planned with a 2-4-2 cabin, as I can't see a Canadian market where it would garner a higher fare.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 154):
No, but it shows them the door by making it quite clear that their jobs aren't sustainable in the long run. McDonalds doesn't fire people for getting old either - it just disincentivizes them from staying by offering the bare minumum, which, it appears, is what AC management wants to do.

Yes, the new-hire F/A contract appears to be geared toward F/A's not staying long. And they don't! Which in my opinion is a shame, give me a well experienced F/A any day!

The other day, I was giving a pre-flight safety briefing to the F/A's and one of the "early 20s new-hire pretty F/A's" was texting on her phone. I very politely asked that she be a part of this conversation. Her answer ... "Yeah, whatever, (rolling her eyes) I have to like text my bf, ok, so just chill, you're lucky I'm even here, I got called out at the last minute".

While I had the authority to remove her from the crew, I don't think she was smart enough, nor experienced enough to understand why. Nah ... give me an "old and ugly" but competent F/A any day. Look at my picture on my profile, I'm old and ugly too, but competent, and I would never treat another crew-member without respect.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2013-02-09 08:31:42 and read 16154 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 157):

Actually, I think the biggest precursor to a 3-3-3 B787, is that it seems that it is how most are being delivered. Honestly, with the vast majority of new B787s having a 3-3-3 Y cabin, I would wonder more if AC's were planned with a 2-4-2 cabin, as I can't see a Canadian market where it would garner a higher fare.

My take on this, as I imagine that of many, is that once you put 3-3-3 on 787s, some of which will likely be used for ULH, its only a matter of time before 17 inch seats seep onto the remaining 777s (whenever the new 787 J is revealed and the cabins across the fleet are refurbished).

Quoting longhauler (Reply 157):
Nah ... give me an "old and ugly" but competent F/A any day.

Truthbetold, I think the vast majority fliers would prefer the professional and competent type to the pretty-with-attitude type.

That said, everything about the world has changed significantly in the last 10-15 years and I think its clear that some types of professions are being revised to match the changes. I know a few F/As in India who joined western airlines in their early 20s and quit when they got married in their mid-20s. Those cultural mores seem to be seeping through here because some bean counter realized its cost-effective (aging staffs get expensive over time). Such is globalization. And now western airlines can get away with it largely because the pool of unemployed workers is growing larger in the western world.

Can't beat 'em? Imitate 'em. As we are seeing with the 777s. I'm not against the 3-4-3 777 per se. As long as airfares come in line with the rest of the world. The cost of living/travellling in a country inevitably has an impact on the cost of doing business in that country.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2013-02-09 09:51:20 and read 15959 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 154):
AC claims this will allow it to offer lower prices, but the prices on YUL-CDG for the introduction of these aircraft look abotu the same as they do right now.

Yeah, but we're almost 6 months out from introduction. The price on any given day closer to the flight will be whatever is right to fill the plane - like every other (non-subsidized) airline.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: multimark
Posted 2013-02-09 10:58:26 and read 15837 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 13):
Meh. AC was starting to lose me. This seals the deal. I just know AC will roll this out fleet wide. Less privacy in J. Cramped 10 abreast in Y. What reason is there to take AC anymore? 24 Y+ is a pittance and knowing AC they'll charge 2x Y for those.

Agreed. I'll be seeking out other carriers and routes to avoid these steerage birds.

Quoting rampbro (Reply 45):
I was under the impression that AC was going to get Rouge to do this kind of flying? Or are they are going after the CDG CNXs (M-E, Africa), for which there is a strong market ex-YUL?

AC's brand management is a disaster. You're absolutely right, isn't the cramped leisure market supposed to be Rouge's? And there's the whole issue of tying Rouge's livery so closely to mainline. I'm always amazed AC has survived this long with the bozos they have running it.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: pnwtraveler
Posted 2013-02-09 12:22:55 and read 15593 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 150):
Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 143):
Unfortunately, for all our commitment to democracy, its nigh on impossible to find out who our air negotiator is meeting with and what is being said.

You can keep repeating this all you like, but international relations and negotiations (like Cabinet meetings) are not going to be conducted in public. It's not a Canadian thing - the countries we're negotiating with wouldn't accept it either.
Quoting longhauler (Reply 152):
It's funny you should say this, as I keep seeing the same people repeating the same thing over and over, as if a discussion on here is going to change Governmental policy. I also notice that they tend to segue existing threads in that direction so that they can trot out the old arguments again.

I agree please not again!. Why does any thread about AC become this tiresome over and over and over again argument, with the same people fanning the EK stuff again and again. Write Transport Canada, call your MP, write Harper, go camp on the front porch of External Affairs or any number of government agencies, do something but until there is something concrete new to say all this rehashing is meaningless.

This whole idea of squeezing seats is not new. The whole discussion happened when AC and everyone else squeezed their L1011s and DC10s from 8 across to 9 across, and 747's from 9 across to 10 across. It is cyclical. New aircraft come out and everyone touts their comfort and space, then later the market forces airlines to take out the luxury in favour of more efficiency. AC had those 4 lounge seats with coffee table in L1011's that converted into a dining/card table where you could eat restaurant style. Those got removed for revenue seats. All the lounges and piano bars that were upstairs in the 747 got removed and revenue seats put in. All of it is driven by what people will pay for. In business frugality is the new black so their is pressure on airlines to make up for revenue lost. I am not sure about Economy Plus or whatever you call it, for AC. It will be an interesting test.

[Edited 2013-02-09 12:26:17]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-09 17:19:08 and read 15292 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 145):

Such ridiculous OT trolling. But I'll indulge you because I find such ridiculous screed deserves to be countered.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 145):
Sounds democratic and peaceful/friendly, but EK is based in a country with some of the world's worst human rights abuses: endemic discrimination against women, gays, Jews. Why is Canada even allowing EK ANY landing rights in Canada? Dubai does not share our values.....we do not need to trade with this barbaric nation.
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 145):
I wish democracy WOULD dictate what our air negotiators did....airlines from barbarcic, undemocratic nations such as the UAE, Pakistan, Egypt, China, Turkey etc etc would all be banned from Cdn airports (until their governments improved their human rights records).

As a serving member of the CF I actually am fully cognizant and supportive of our human rights regime and do wish such ideals would spread. And you'll find I am quite critical of the UAE in several other threads (having grown up there). However, our governments (both Liberal and Conservative) have been falling all over themselves to trade with China (one of the most illiberal regimes on the planet....although slowly opening up). And Canadian corporations have been following suit.

So let's have consistency. Surely you don't believe in hypocrisy right? So you'll be supportive of not just banning their companies but also prohibiting ours from doing business there right? No EK, EY or QR to Canada. But in return AC gets to give up PEK and PVG. You sure AC wants to do that?

And why just aviation? I have huge reservations about selling our oil to China given that country's environmental record as well. What's your thoughts on restricting oil sales to China? Or are you only interested in restricting trade in aviation? And if so why?

Last on this....since when did Turkey get clubbed in with the UAE? You are aware that Turkey is a democracy and a NATO member right? And surely you are also aware that Turkey does not have any legal discrimination against Jews, gays or women (other than to actually prohibit head covering in certain places...think about that for a majority muslim country). Indeed, Turkey is quite a popular destination for many Israeli Jews. Oh and we also routinely have Canadian Forces personnel both transiting through and posted to Turkey on exchange. But I am sure you knew all this before spouting off....

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 145):
And in 30 years......these same EK FA's will be old and overweight and unattractive....or will they have long since been fired? AC cannot fire old FA's and only hire young and attractive ones....we have labour laws preventing this and our country respects humans rights.
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 145):
Well said. Id rather be served by an ugly 55yo AC FA whose human rights are upheld by federal government standards than by some smokin' hot 25yo EK FA who was hired for his/her looks and will be fired in 10 years for getting old.

Have a look online. You won't find too many cases of FAs being fired for being old. Seriously, go look. And young people flock from all over the world to get those jobs. If the working conditions are as poor and discriminatory as you say, I would ask you why it is that young people from all over developed world flock to work for EK or EY or QR (TK is rather restrictive in this regard and prefers Turks)?

I know several Canadians (all with university degrees) who have chosen to be flight attendants for EK and EY. Not one of them applied to work for AC. Not a single one has complained about their jobs. The key difference is that they don't view being an FA as employment for life. It's a fun time for a few years. Then they'll be back in Canada looking at real careers. And the companies incentivize them as such. Older FAs are moved to jobs in the office or as counter staff (losing per diems, flight pay and the nice hotels (EY puts up staff at the Leela in Mumbai for example)). This is no different than what many Canadian companies do. How many Moxie's waitresses expect to do that for life?

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 145):
It doesn't sound like such a bad way of travelling from Canada to India. AC and LH provide good service.

It was great service. In 1995. Seriously. LH has only just finished installing AVOD on all their aircraft. In 2013. EK had AVOD carrier wide in the late 90s. And LH birds without AVOD? Always put on India routes. The complaints from South Asians are endless. It seems like the only ones who fly these routes are those beholden to Star Alliance or those who don't know about LH putting geriartric aircraft on India routes. The minute they experience this, they run right back to EK/EY/QR.

Sure, AVOD is not essential. But this goes right back to the value for money argument. Those airlines simply give you more.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 145):
South Asia is really not a key market for AC, and likely never will be.

Really? Then why is AC and LH fighting so hard to keep EK/EY/QR and TK from expanding? These airlines largely cater only to South Asians bound for South Asia and some pax bound for the UAE and Qatar. If it's not a key market to AC why are they so concerned with restricting their expansion?

I really do want an answer to my question.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 145):
So the remaining 12 77W's and the 77L fleet will remain.....civilized.

I don't buy that one bit. There might be a few left in today's config. But it won't be as high as 18 777s. I'll put money on that.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-09 17:32:47 and read 15244 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 162):
It seems like the only ones who fly these routes are those beholden to Star Alliance or those who don't know about LH putting geriartric aircraft on India routes. The minute they experience this, they run right back to EK/EY/QR.

Sure, AVOD is not essential. But this goes right back to the value for money argument. Those airlines simply give you more.

LH has nothing comparable to a cramped 10-abreast EK/EY 777. And many people much prefer LH's consistent and reliable service to the often very inconsistent service of the Gulf carriers which is unavoidable with cabin crews comprised of 100 or so nationalities.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2013-02-09 17:41:46 and read 15214 times.

From a business standpoint, this totally makes sense. The effect on reputation to an airline's bottom line is often overblown. The worst thing that happens is AC can't fill the seats and they try another configuration. That's one beauty of the 77W...it can be configured with a staggering number of layouts.

It may be difficult for some to accept, but 10 wide is fast becoming the default Y configuration on the 777. The airline would be foolish not to try experiment with seating scenarios which seem to be money makers for others.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-09 17:43:10 and read 15216 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 152):
but I am curious where we will see the rest of the 5 fly.

LHR, GIG, GRU, SCL and maybe EZE, if I had to guess. FRA will depend on what LH decides the service standard will be. We all know that AC is LH's b***h on TATL.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 154):
It isn't as tangential as you think.

This. If some are going to keep arguing that AC deserves to be protected for reasons that used to include higher service (and I used to be one of these people), then AC's declining standards should include discussions about opening the country up to alternatives as well.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 157):
he other day, I was giving a pre-flight safety briefing to the F/A's and one of the "early 20s new-hire pretty F/A's" was texting on her phone. I very politely asked that she be a part of this conversation. Her answer ... "Yeah, whatever, (rolling her eyes) I have to like text my bf, ok, so just chill, you're lucky I'm even here, I got called out at the last minute".

While I had the authority to remove her from the crew, I don't think she was smart enough, nor experienced enough to understand why.

Right. And you can bet this would not have happened on EK or EY or QR (since we are talking about those airlines). No unions. And termination results in cancellation of residency as well. The staff are quite motivated to work, and work hard.

And you can bet her attitude carries through on service to the customers as well.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 157):
Nah ... give me an "old and ugly" but competent F/A any day. Look at my picture on my profile, I'm old and ugly too, but competent, and I would never treat another crew-member without respect.

You could be a toad and it wouldn't matter. You're not serving passengers. But a flight attendant is a waiter/waitress with some emergency management training. Appearance is absolutely part of the service package, whether people are willing to discuss it or not. Same thing goes for restaurants. And it's not just Hooters. You ever seen an unattractive server at Moxie's? Not just attractive. They are perfectly groomed all the time.

Now, while I personally don't care which stud or hag brings me my food, I assure you that lots of people out there do. Flying is still a glamorous thing for many South Asians. And attractive, young staff improve the image of the airline in their minds. They associate older FAs with ye olde government run airline (Air India). Same idea: old, tenured, disinterested, unionized staff. AC's FA's directly contribute to the AC = AI mindset that I see becoming more and more prevalent among South Asians. Westjet to many is Canada's Jet Airways in their minds. And with a community that's a few million strong, AC can ignore this demographic at their peril.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 159):
Yeah, but we're almost 6 months out from introduction. The price on any given day closer to the flight will be whatever is right to fill the plane - like every other (non-subsidized) airline.

Yet, they rushed to put the Premium Economy fares on there. So while doing that they couldn't lower Y fares? I don't buy that.

So clearly AC is not interested in competing for Y pax planning trips in August. Apparently, they'd rather pass it up to TS, whose prices are 30-40% lower.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-09 17:50:26 and read 15185 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 163):
LH has nothing comparable to a cramped 10-abreast EK/EY 777.

Yeah. But you only get that for 2-3 hours DXB-BOM/DEL, etc. Not 8-10. From Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 163):
And many people much prefer LH's consistent and reliable service to the often very inconsistent service of the Gulf carriers which is unavoidable with cabin crews comprised of 100 or so nationalities.

You view that as inconsistent. But if you're a 70 year old Indian man, it's quite a relief to find a flight attendant who speaks your specific Indian dialect (Punjabi or Marathi or Gujarati, etc.) or flat out a pleasant bonus for a Portugese traveler to find out that there's a portugese speaking flight attendant on their DXB-DPS leg.

This kind of service is absolute gold when it comes to the premium cabins.

And they all speak English quite well actually. So I have never had an issue with the various nationalities. I am curious, what about the various nationalities you think yields inconsistent service. Please be specific.

[Edited 2013-02-09 17:54:18]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: yyz717
Posted 2013-02-09 17:58:13 and read 15159 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 162):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 145):
South Asia is really not a key market for AC, and likely never will be.

Really? Then why is AC and LH fighting so hard to keep EK/EY/QR and TK from expanding? These airlines largely cater only to South Asians bound for South Asia and some pax bound for the UAE and Qatar. If it's not a key market to AC why are they so concerned with restricting their expansion?

I really do want an answer to my question.

That is just one of many active AC lobbying efforts going on at any one point in time. There are many others. Not EVERYTHING AC does or or lobbies about is focused on South Asia. Let's repeat that last thought: not everything is about South Asia.

Quoting ytz (Reply 162):
And LH birds without AVOD? Always put on India routes.

Why not, if those are the low yielding routes? Makes sense to me.

Quoting ytz (Reply 162):
The complaints from South Asians are endless.

So? Complaints from low yield markets are really not important to legacy carriers who need to focus on high yield markets. Let them complain.

Quoting ytz (Reply 162):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 145):
So the remaining 12 77W's and the 77L fleet will remain.....civilized.

I don't buy that one bit. There might be a few left in today's config. But it won't be as high as 18 777s. I'll put money on that.

Perhaps, but you have a choice to fly other carriers. And when all carriers piss you off, you can choose not to fly. Or you can choose not to complain. I find AC service excellent actually, generally. The 3-4-3 plan and the 787 3-3-3 (if this happens) mght actually be fine (the lav issue aside).

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-09 18:00:57 and read 15149 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 166):
And they all speak English quite well actually. So I have never had an issue with the various nationalities. I am curious, what about the various nationalities you think yields inconsistent service. Please be specific.

I have no reason to fly those carriers but I know many people who have flown them extensively and have stopped based on their inconsistent service. It can be very good or very bad, and I've been told it usually depends on the mix of cabin crew nationalities. It's often small things, like offering to hang up your jacket on one flight and not on the next.

It's more difficult to ensure consistency when your staff comes from such a wide variety of backgrounds and cultures, no matter how much you focus on training.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-02-09 18:01:39 and read 15172 times.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 122):
The elasticity of demand on airline tickets is one of the highest for any given consumer product and unless that trend changes this is what airlines are going to do in order to stay competitive.

Exactly! That is an economic point I make that then is ignored. I fly far more often today than before. Partially as airfare is no longer $1,400 for a business trip so that the cost is no longer prohibitive. Heck, a half dozen of my

Quoting Arrow (Reply 44):
This sardine can trend is very worrisome. I'd cheerfully pay more for a little extra space. Anything over 10 hours is torture.

Please do so. Right now too many just search for the lowest fair. Those who will pick a little more room for say $50 or $100 would reverse the trend. But too many airlines will not break even in Y without packing them in.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 56):
That would be true if the prices would be going down for the traveler

They are driven by oil. Fuel is now ~40% of the cost of long haul travel. Prices are far lower than not too long ago.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 67):
The customers are getting exactly what their behavior shows they want.

  

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 67):
17.5" (in place of the 787's 17.2").

Interesting detail that I didn't know.

Quoting cmf (Reply 70):
It amazes me how poorly most airlines sell Y .

UA did well. They gave me a free upgrade to try it *but I was flying too often and my company wouldn't reimburse a penny.*

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 122):
People have decided with their wallets that being cramped for 8 hours is worth saving $50

Which is why I compare the seat comfort versus the cost before buying.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: DavidCA
Posted 2013-02-09 18:25:54 and read 15091 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 165):
Flying is still a glamorous thing for many South Asians. And attractive, young staff improve the image of the airline in their minds.

Again, who cares? If someone is stupid enough or shallow enough to choose an airline based on whether the age of their F/A is likely to be 22 or 47 that's their problem.

Many people immigrate to Canada because Canada is a place where everyone is protected under law from discrimination. If people who benefit from protection against discrimination themselves then turn around and praise a company for its practice of the kind of discrimination they themselves are free from by virtue of living in Canada, then they chose the wrong country to live in, and they should go back to where they came from. On Emirates, of course.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: sunrisevalley
Posted 2013-02-09 18:32:05 and read 15063 times.

Quoting chrisa330 (Reply 37):
Can anyone comment on what impact to range a capacity increase like this would have?
Quoting ytz (Reply 42):
109 more pax? Should reduce payload by 30 000 lbs.

The standard per passenger with baggage is 210lb so the reduction in cargo capacity would be about 22900lb. But who is counting   

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: aircanada014
Posted 2013-02-09 20:32:36 and read 14948 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 54):
And TK still gives you a 17.5" seat and 33" pitch in Y on the 332s and 333s they use on IST-BOM. Compare that to 17" seats and 31" pitch in Y on these new AC 77Ws.

Did you forget AC A330 still gives you 31-33 in seat pitch with 18in width seat as well. how about 77L with 18in seat width with 32 in pitch..and similar with B767 with 32inch pitch with 18in width seat too..

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: flyyul
Posted 2013-02-09 20:56:12 and read 14887 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 165):
LHR, GIG, GRU, SCL and maybe EZE, if I had to guess. FRA will depend on what LH decides the service standard will be. We all know that AC is LH's b***h on TATL.

Where do you come up with this stuff? We all know or you just know - because you somehow know better than us?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-09 23:47:20 and read 14717 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 167):
That is just one of many active AC lobbying efforts going on at any one point in time. There are many others. Not EVERYTHING AC does or or lobbies about is focused on South Asia. Let's repeat that last thought: not everything is about South Asia.
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 167):
Why not, if those are the low yielding routes? Makes sense to me.
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 167):

So? Complaints from low yield markets are really not important to legacy carriers who need to focus on high yield markets. Let them complain
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 167):
Perhaps, but you have a choice to fly other carriers.

Again. If it's low-yielding and so irrelevant, why is AC lobbying so hard. You had the government going to bat for AC and giving up our only airhead in the Middle East in the middle of a war over this. So again. If this is so irrelevant and low yielding, why is AC fighting so hard and why was the government risking actual lives over this?

Simple question. If it's low yielding then they can afford to give up the traffic, right? After all, by your assertions is so low yielding that putting AVOD on planes is not worthwhile. So is the traffic important to AC or not? Simple flipping question. Answer it.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 167):
And when all carriers piss you off, you can choose not to fly. Or you can choose not to complain.


Ahh yes. You're all about democracy. Except when the opinions of others aren't in line with yours. Then they should just shut it?


Quoting lightsaber (Reply 169):
Exactly! That is an economic point I make that then is ignored. I fly far more often today than before.

That economic argument is not relevant when you have a market that is so distorted by regulation. We know for a fact that air fares would be a lot lower if there was more competition. Industry watchdogs, competition bureaus, IATA, etc. have all said it.

Now I actually am not as much of an absolutist as El Pistolero. And I have argued tons with him before. I have no issue with the government protecting AC where Canadian interests are at stake. But looking at the evolution of AC, I am starting to get his point. The government is increasingly lobbying for AC's interests, not the interests of Canadians. After all, they put AC's interests before those of our troops on the ground in Kandahar.

Quoting DavidCA (Reply 170):
Again, who cares?

Plenty of paying customers. And that's all that should matter to any business. Then again, when you're protected from competition maybe you don't have to actually care about serving every customer.

Quoting DavidCA (Reply 170):
If someone is stupid enough or shallow enough to choose an airline based on whether the age of their F/A is likely to be 22 or 47 that's their problem.

You seem to believe that's the sole reason people choose those airlines. Like I've said, repeatedly. It isn't. The old lady syndrome is just part and parcel of an overall AC impression that reminds many people of the government run airlines at home that they all love to hate. Those airlines also have long tenured, unionized staff who aren't all that interested in serving their customers. But it's not just the FAs. It's old planes. Outdated or old AVOD. Poor quality food. FAs who don't speak their language (matters a lot for older folks). Disinterested counter staff.

Quoting DavidCA (Reply 170):
If people who benefit from protection against discrimination themselves then turn around and praise a company for its practice of the kind of discrimination they themselves are free from by virtue of living in Canada, then they chose the wrong country to live in, and they should go back to where they came from.

Ahh yes. If they complain, they aren't Canadian and should go back where they came from. How nice. You should look up the stats on who contributes more economically, naturalized or native-born Canadians. It'll be enlightening for you.

More importantly, could you please explain to me why Canadians of South Asian descent are wrong to insist that they have the same level of service choice as Canadians of European descent? Why is that if we insist on the same, we should go back?

In any event, all those South Asians (particularly the 750 000 in the GTA) are concentrated in several strategic federal ridings. And they aren't about to drop air service as an issue of critical concern. For those who are running growing businesses involving South Asia, it's even more critical. And they are quite likely to link donations to these issues. I have confidence that in a few elections cycles, the politicians who run in these ridings will increasingly start wondering aloud why their constituents aren't being served properly by current aviation policies.

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 171):
The standard per passenger with baggage is 210lb so the reduction in cargo capacity would be about 22900lb. But who is counting  

I'm counting the seats, the AVOD gear, the additional galley carts, etc.

Quoting aircanada014 (Reply 172):
Did you forget AC A330 still gives you 31-33 in seat pitch with 18in width seat as well. how about 77L with 18in seat width with 32 in pitch..and similar with B767 with 32inch pitch with 18in width seat too..

How long as those 333s going to be around? And can you guarantee they won't get "upgraded"....to Rouge?

Quoting flyyul (Reply 173):
Where do you come up with this stuff? We all know or you just know - because you somehow know better than us?

You're right. I should qualify. It's my opinion (shared by many) that AC is LH's house boy. It really isn't ambitious much beyond that. Corporate vision really consists of reruns of LCC launches. The variations are markets they serve. So Zip and Jazz when And now Rouge gets to join the creative legacy.

I want everybody here to look through my post history. You'll see lots of defence of AC. And long arguments with El Pistolero. But with this move, I've lost all interest in defending AC. Why defend an airline that's only interested in offering the same service as Air Transat? I want better, nay, the best, for Canadians. AC may not be state-run, but it's actually worse. A poorly run carrier protected by the State. Air Canada: airline version of "Too Big to fail". Canada's version of Air India. The government goes to bat when they negotiate with the unions. The government imposes ludicrous conditions on them (total bilingualism) but then doesn't follow through on others (loss of Aveos jobs). And the government will risk diplomatic relations and give up our only strategic airhead, against the advice of our commanders just to avoid a few more slots for the competition? I can't support this any more. I'm done.

[Edited 2013-02-10 00:11:05]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: abrelosojos
Posted 2013-02-10 01:02:31 and read 14596 times.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 118):
I'm sorry Abrelosojos. Did you want us to launch Whitehorse - Paris service? I would love to hear your views on our uninspiring network  

= I would want you to actually be bold to try new things and drop old ones. Get new blood into the shop, poach from WS, shake things up. All the stuff you guys are doing doesn't seem to all work. And stop blaming the CASM issue for everything!

Saludos,
A.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: DavidCA
Posted 2013-02-10 01:35:55 and read 14530 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 174):
Ahh yes. If they complain, they aren't Canadian and should go back where they came from

Never said that. Don't put words in my mouth.

What I suggested is that if they believe that an employer should, under law, be able to discriminate based on age, looks, gender, religion or sexual oreientation as Emirates does then they chose the wrong country to live in and should leave.

[Edited 2013-02-10 01:46:47]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: CXB77L
Posted 2013-02-10 02:37:36 and read 14498 times.

Quoting na (Reply 147):
but a cattle car 777 will never see me on board.

You wouldn't fly on a 777 even if it was 9-across anyway, so what's your point?

The overall percentage of travellers who choose flights based on aircraft type are infinitesimal compared with travellers who choose based on price and schedule. By launching a higher density seating configuration, AC like many other airlines are catering to the demand of the travelling market.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-10 09:42:30 and read 14073 times.

Quoting DavidCA (Reply 176):

What I suggested is that if they believe that an employer should, under law, be able to discriminate based on age, looks, gender, religion or sexual oreientation as Emirates does then they chose the wrong country to live in and should leave.

Surely, since you are not a hypocrite, you have an issue when Moxies and Hooters discriminate based on age, gender and appearance right? Diito for all the offices that hire attractive young women as receptionists in Canada. I'm sure it's just a coincidence that there are far more attractive and young women working as receptionists than there are unattractive old males on Bay Street.

So when can we expect you to file a human rights complaint against Earl's?

Oh, by the way, what evidence do you have of systemic discrimination at EK? I've seen more male flight attendants on EK, EY crews than AC. In fact, those airlines insist on hiring a percentage of males as cabin crew since the beginning. (They can double as security in s sense).

Discintenvizing workers from making a career out of being an FA isn't the same as discrimination. And thankfully for the ME3, nobody signs up with that intention. They join to travel, stay in 5 star hotels (most Canadians would never spend the rack rate for the Leela which is standard even on a 4 hr layover for EY staff) and get paid well (relatively for young people) and party it up for a few years. And this isn't just EK. Ditto for all the smaller airlines in Europe. How many 40 year old flight attendants on Ryanair or Easyjet or Virgin? Only in North America is serving plastic trays of food considered a career option. Quite simply, it's unionization that has made this possible and is costing AC dearly. Flight attendants getting a pension? Seriously? My brother, an aerospace engineer at Pratt and Whitney doesn't get one. But a dude handing out trays of food and drinks does? Sorry, but they are the only waiters and waitresses that I know of that think they deserve lifetime tenure and professional status. It's ridiculous to defend them on arguments of discrimination. It makes a mockery of the complaints of those that face actual discrimination.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: aircanada014
Posted 2013-02-10 10:15:26 and read 14034 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 174):
Quoting aircanada014 (Reply 172):
Did you forget AC A330 still gives you 31-33 in seat pitch with 18in width seat as well. how about 77L with 18in seat width with 32 in pitch..and similar with B767 with 32inch pitch with 18in width seat too..

How long as those 333s going to be around? And can you guarantee they won't get "upgraded"....to Rouge?

That depends on AC and the B787 at least they are still around for awhile so even if no upgrades the seat pitch and width won't change a bit unless they decided to put them on high density.. The point is we still have other a/c still flying with those comfort seats and leg room..if they were to be removed right now then yes its a shame but its still in AC's fleet.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: AustrianZRH
Posted 2013-02-10 10:52:10 and read 13984 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 163):
LH has nothing comparable to a cramped 10-abreast EK/EY 777.

LH 346 seat width: 17.0 in
LH 346 seat pitch: 31.0 in

EK 77W seat width: 17.0 in
EK 77W seat pitch: 34.0 in

Which one is more cramped?

Btw, I prefer AC's 763 to LH's 346 or LX's 343 simply because of the 18 in width instead of the 17 in - thus, the new 77W is not really to my liking, but thankfully, we still get the 763 or 333 in ZRH. Pitch is not a problem for me  .

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2013-02-10 11:21:41 and read 13907 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 163):
LH has nothing comparable to a cramped 10-abreast EK/EY 777.
Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 181):
LH 346 seat width: 17.0 inLH 346 seat pitch: 31.0 inEK 77W seat width: 17.0 inEK 77W seat pitch: 34.0 in

I don't know how reliable seatguru is but here are the stats from there:

LH A380 width:17.0
LH A380 pitch: 31.0

EK A380 width:18.0
EK A380 pitch: 32-34.0

The good news for LH is that their 748s boast an 18.5" width in Y, alebit with the same 31" pitch.

EK's "cramped" 10-abreast 777s are on par with LH's A346s and 380s, though the comparability goes out of the window when you consider the pitch - LH, and now AC are what, 1" more pitch than Ryanair and with the same seat width? I somehow suspect you didn't expect that comparison to turn out the way it did.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-02-10 11:36:36 and read 13880 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 182):
I don't know how reliable seatguru is but here are the stats from there:

I have always had my suspicions of seatguru, as often I have notified them of errors, (even sending pictures) only to be ignored ... so I just assume they are incorrect.

With regard to what you quote, it appears incorrect, only because I can see no reason why LH would have a 17" wide Y class seat in an A380, then an 18.5" Y seat in the narrower B748.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2013-02-10 12:00:23 and read 13829 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 183):
With regard to what you quote, it appears incorrect, only because I can see no reason why LH would have a 17" wide Y class seat in an A380, then an 18.5" Y seat in the narrower B748.
LH's website doesn't help with clarity:

"On long-haul routes a seat cushion width of over 40 cm, as well as the individually adjustable headrests on every seat, ensure your comfort." 40 cm is 15.75"

[Edited 2013-02-10 12:00:47]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: behramjee
Posted 2013-02-10 13:01:17 and read 13734 times.

Since 5 B77Ws are being reconfigured and already one aircraft going to be dedicated for YUL-CDG, the other 4, I would suggest should be:

YVR-HKG for which 2.5 aircraft would be required

YUL-FRA for which 1 aircraft would be required

However, if this concept works out and I really hope so it does as it has all the necessary tools to succeed, I think AC can easily do with 11 B77Ws configured in this layout to be operated in the following manner:

2.5 for daily YVR-HKG
1 for daily YVR-LHR

1 for daily YUL-CDG
1 for daily YUL-FRA

1 for daily YYZ-LHR
2.5 for daily YYZ-PEK

New Routes:

0.5 for 3 weekly YUL-CMN (new route) ...to be replaced by B789 when it gets delivered and increased to 4 weekly by that time

1 for 4 weekly YVR-MNL (new route)

Some of you might say that YYZ-DEL is also a feasible option, but after doing some rough calculations, it is not especially since DEL-YYZ sector on a 458 seater will be severely payload restricted. Note that when AI operated DEL-YYZ nonstop with a 340 seater B77W it could not carry any cargo so I would expect AC's B77W too have a payload penalty of 100 pax at least on DEL-YYZ flight portion. In comparison, Canada-MNL market size is more or less the same as Canada-DEL but the average fare is 30% higher to MNL versus DEL and its a shorter flying distance. Plus unlike Canada-DEL which actually has major seasonal demand i.e. majority of travel is between OCT-FEB, Canada-MNL is year round. Last but not least, Canada-MNL has way less in-direct one stop competition versus Canada-DEL hence more easier for AC to fill up the plane.

YVR-HKG and YYZ-PEK, I think are required as these are long haul routes where the operating costs of flying B77Ws shall remain the same but the extra potential revenue that 109 seats brings to the table on these 2 very high volumetric routes shall definitely come in handy. There are 36J class seats on board which would translate into a 86% S/F on the current 42J B77W which is adequate as well.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-02-10 13:26:08 and read 13669 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 182):

LH A380 width:17.0
LH A380 pitch: 31.0

EK A380 width:18.0
EK A380 pitch: 32-34.0

According to seatguru, SQ A380's seat width is 19.0". I find it hard to believe that LH''s A380 seats are two full inches narrower than those of SQ, both being 10 abreast. 10 seats x 2" = 20" = 50.8 cm. Where do they go? Is each of the two aisles 25.4 cm wider in LH? I doubt it.

[Edited 2013-02-10 14:10:01]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-10 13:42:45 and read 13619 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 183):
Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 182):
I don't know how reliable seatguru is but here are the stats from there:

I have always had my suspicions of seatguru, as often I have notified them of errors, (even sending pictures) only to be ignored ... so I just assume they are incorrect.

I ignore SeatGuru data of that type. Seat width can be measured various ways (between armrests, including armrests, including/excluding the gap between seat cushions etc. All they do is publish the information the carriers have provided.

Even seat pitch isn't very useful information these days with so many different types of seats. Many of the lightweight thin-back seats have more effective legroom at 30 inch pitch than older bulkier seats at 32-33 inch pitch.

The only meaningful seat width comparisons in SeatGuru and similar sites involve the number of seats abreast on the same aircraft type, for example a 9-abreast 777 vs. 10-abreast. Regardless what they show for seat width, I highly doubt anyone is going to notice any meaningful difference on two carriers operating the same aircraft type with the same number of seats abreast.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: Devilfish
Posted 2013-02-10 14:32:59 and read 13508 times.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 185):
1 for 4 weekly YVR-MNL (new route)

[.....]

In comparison, Canada-MNL market size is more or less the same as Canada-DEL but the average fare is 30% higher to MNL versus DEL and its a shorter flying distance. Plus unlike Canada-DEL which actually has major seasonal demand i.e. majority of travel is between OCT-FEB, Canada-MNL is year round.

Ahh.....but all of those go against received wisdom on this boards.      

Quoting behramjee (Reply 185):
Last but not least, Canada-MNL has way less in-direct one stop competition versus Canada-DEL hence more easier for AC to fill up the plane.


For such a heavily configured 77H YYZ route to work, a stop in Japan or South Korea is a must.....

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=yyz-hnd-mnl-icn-yyz&MS=wls&DU=nm





[Edited 2013-02-10 15:34:45]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: behramjee
Posted 2013-02-10 15:39:44 and read 13424 times.

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 188):
For such a heavily configured 77H route to work, a stop in Japan or South Korea is a must.....

no i wrote YVR-MNL not MNL so it should be ok i reckon

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=yyz-MNL%0D%0AYVR-MNL&MS=wls&DU=nm

[Edited 2013-02-10 15:40:44]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: Mikey86
Posted 2013-02-10 16:48:22 and read 13332 times.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 105):
You can and the YYZ-Europe wouldn't be weight restricted either as it uses 50-60% the available range of a 77W. It sucks for passengers but this is the way things are going and AC is not using this layout on YVR-SYD in the near future.

I don't even think YYZ-Europe is really long haul as I could deal with 10x abreast for about 9 hours and any longer I will be paying for that A380.

All it comes down to these days is profitability - which is fair enough. If an airline can do this with keeping their PAX loads up there they will. Just smart business practice thats all  

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: DavidCA
Posted 2013-02-10 16:48:28 and read 13341 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 179):
[Discintenvizing workers from making a career out of being an FA isn't the same as discrimination. /quote]

Forcing people to leave when they reach whatever age it is that you say they should be forced to leave is discrimination, actually. Our courts say so.

[quote=ytz,reply=179][Europe. How many 40 year old flight attendants on Ryanair or Easyjet or Virgin? Only in North America is serving plastic trays of food considered a career option. /quote]

What nonsense! I guess you have never flown on BA, Qantas, Icelandair, SAS, El-Al, South African.

[quote=ytz,reply=179It's ridiculous to defend them on arguments of discrimination. It makes a mockery of the complaints of those that face actual discrimination.]

I'm defending Canadian law which rightly prohibits discrimination on the basis of age, sex, race, religion, sexual orientation etc etc. Those values (shared throughout the civilized world) obviously drive you crazy given your obsession with the ages of F/As, so perhaps you'd fit in better in a place like the UAE. Civilized, democratic nations aren't going to move in the direction you'd like.

Maybe you should start a thread on F/A age instead of harping on it on this thread. It doesn't have anything to do with the configuration of AC's new 777.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: Devilfish
Posted 2013-02-10 17:43:14 and read 13268 times.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 189):
no i wrote YVR-MNL not MNL so it should be ok i reckon

   Yes, sorry...my brain is a bit slow on the uptake today. I was thinking that AC would get a lot of the MNL bound passengers between YYZ and YVR thus PR's load factor could suffer onward to the tech stop at YVR. Unless plenty of people from the eastern seaboard connect with PR at YYZ for a nonstop... or they could somehow be given traffic rights between YYZ and HND/ICN on the way to MNL to compensate.

But to echo the others...a full plane in that configuration would mean a long, crowded, stinky flight with only six lavs!            

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: flyyul
Posted 2013-02-10 18:27:41 and read 13230 times.

AC will have more than 6 LAVs on the 77H - for the record...

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2013-02-10 19:09:23 and read 13147 times.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 193):
AC will have more than 6 LAVs on the 77H - for the record...

Not really sure what the point of your post is, since it doesn't address anything. The subject of discussion is as follows

J/Y+: 36/24, 3 lavs (1 lav per 20 pax)
Y: 398 pax, 6 lavs (1 lav per 66 pax) .

Total: 458 pax, 9 lavs

For the record, is this correct?

By way of comparison, the current configuration is:

J: 42 pax, 3 lavs (1 lav per 14 pax)
Y: 307 pax, 8 lavs ( 1 lav per 38 pax)

Total: 349 pax, 11 lavs

Feel free to correct the record.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: Skydrol
Posted 2013-02-10 19:31:07 and read 13116 times.

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 192):
But to echo the others...a full plane in that configuration would mean a long, crowded, stinky flight with only six lavs!
Quoting flyyul (Reply 193):
AC will have more than 6 LAVs on the 77H - for the record...

I believe the concern from the original poster was only 6 lavs for 398 Y passengers. Whether there are one, two, or four additional lavs for J is irrelevant when the FAs will not let the Y passengers access them.

And even with 6 lavs for 398 Y passengers, the ratio (1:66) is about the same as WestJet's 737-700s, with 2 lavs for 136 passengers (1:68). Both better than AC's useless 1 lav for 84 Y passengers layout of their E-190s, but the nine J passengers get their own, and even with this stupid layout I have witnessed FAs turning Y passengers back with five or six passengers lined up for the single aft lav, while the forward lav gets used once or twice during the entire flight.  




✈ LD4 ✈

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: StarAC17
Posted 2013-02-10 21:22:25 and read 12949 times.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 185):
2.5 for daily YYZ-PEK

Not happening non-stop with this config, it would put the plane very overweight with the amount of fuel needed to pull that off.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 185):
2.5 for daily YVR-HKG
1 for daily YVR-LHR

These ones are toss ups I think YVR-LHR can be done with this config but YVR-HKG is tight as it's around 5500nm.

These configs will be used on Euro routes and South American routes because they do not come close to the range of a 77W which will be pretty heavy without fuel in this config.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-11 05:58:23 and read 12604 times.

Quoting DavidCA (Reply 191):
I'm defending Canadian law which rightly prohibits discrimination on the basis of age, sex, race, religion, sexual orientation etc etc.

Perhaps you should start defending the law by standing up for its strictest applications at home. I've given you several examples on where to start. I'll believe that there's no age discrimination in Canada, when I start seeing 50 year old waitresses at Hooters.

Anything less and you're a hypocrite more concerned about the actions of others than actual justice for the victims that you are crying crocodile tears for.

In any event, I'm done with this OT line of discussion. You want to talk about it further, start another thread, I'll gladly take it there.

[Edited 2013-02-11 05:58:51]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: DavidCA
Posted 2013-02-11 06:29:48 and read 12536 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 198):
You want to talk about it further, start another thread, I'll gladly take it there.

No thanks. No point to trying to discuss it with someone who'd make a claim such as:

Quoting ytz (Reply 179):
Only in North America is serving plastic trays of food considered a career option.

Qantas, El Al, British Airways, Avianca, Aerolineas Argentinas, Air New Zealand, SAS, Icelandair......

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-11 06:57:28 and read 12450 times.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 196):
These ones are toss ups I think YVR-LHR can be done with this config but YVR-HKG is tight as it's around 5500nm.

Doesn't this come down to a cargo load decision really? I mean when the routes get into very long haul/ultra long haul territory?

I think this config is a guarantee on LHR and CDG routes. Heck, it's perfect for those routes if AC wants to compete with TS. I think LH might determine the service standard on FRA/MUC routes. I can't imagine that LH wants to have pax transfer from an LH to an AC bird at notably different comfort levels.

With these 5 aicraft, if I were to speculate:

YVR-LHR
YYZ-LHR (x2)
YYZ-CDG
YUL-CDG

If not 2 birds on YYZ-LHR, then maybe an "upgrade" on YYC-LHR or YYZ-GRU....should be important for the world cup too. At the end of the day, if, as purported, these a/c are being bought to take on TS, then it'll obviously be TATL routes that are prioritized. London is one of the most important destinations on AC's networks. Ditto for TS. I can't see AC not offering Y+ and cheaper Y fares on its LHR routes.

The curious thing here though, is where this leaves Rouge. What's the point of Rouge if AC will use high density 77Hs to compete with TS on important routes? Why not keep those Rouge aircraft inside mainline and just "upgrade" them to high density configurations, to serve lower yield destinations?

I don't see these aircraft on Asia routes...yet. It'll be refurbished 77Ws that end up on the Asian routes.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-02-11 08:21:35 and read 12297 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 201):
With these 5 aicraft, if I were to speculate:

YVR-LHR
YYZ-LHR (x2)
YYZ-CDG
YUL-CDG

Of those routes, other than YUL-CDG which has been announced, the only other route I could imagine is YYZ-CDG, as they are competing with TS and AF. In my opinion, you can't compete with BA, with a 10 abreast B777.

You will notice that Rouge is presently not planned to Hawaii. I could see the rest of these new B777s on Hawaii flights, or BGI in season. Anywhere the Three Amigos flew, that Rouge has not announced.

Possibly India, but that is such a saturated market, I can't see it.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 194):
Not really sure what the point of your post is, since it doesn't address anything.

This gentleman is involved with the introduction of these aircraft, unlike everyone else on here who is speculating on a "cartoon" he is likely looking at an engineer's draft of the cabin. Quite a few people on here speculated that the ship would only have 6 lavs, he is dispelling that rumour.

Quoting ytz (Reply 201):
It'll be refurbished 77Ws that end up on the Asian routes.

Quite a few people are getting twisted over a "what if". There has been no plans to reconfigure the existing B777s. Looking at AF or KL (for example) they have multiple cabin layouts for the B777. Shoot, 7 alone for AF! It is not uncommon to offer a different product to a different market, in the same airframe.

AC has done this in the past with the three "low yield" B767s. In fact look even further in the past .... all Y DC-8s, and high density B747s, L1011s and B767-200s! All of these had a different cabin layout than the "regular" versions flying.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-11 10:36:07 and read 12076 times.



Quoting longhauler (Reply 199):
Of those routes, other than YUL-CDG which has been announced, the only other route I could imagine is YYZ-CDG, as they are competing with TS and AF. In my opinion, you can't compete with BA, with a 10 abreast B777.

Why not? It's triangular competition, in my books. It's as much about BA, as it is about TS. My speculation, of course. But I don't see why not. Is the suggestion that it's not possible because BA uses 9-abreast 777s? But if AC wanted to steal some market share while growing the market, I would think using the high density birds and lowering prices would be the perfect way to do it. And given that LHR is as much tourist heavy as it is business heavy. So I could see a potential scenario where AC makes LHR the 77H focus city if you will, from YVR, YYC and YYZ (one of the overnight slots).

Then move the 333s to TPAC on North-East Asia routes (NRT/PEK/PVG/ICN/NGO/KIX) and Hawaii routes from YVR and YYC. Not ideal...but maybe more left than the 767s today.

Alternatively, AC could deploy the 77Hs to compete on Asia routes. But if the argument is that AC can't put up a high density product against BA on LHR routes, then surely the same argument applies for Asia routes where CX for example would have a substantially better product.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 199):
Possibly India, but that is such a saturated market, I can't see it.

I've come to believe that India and AC are a mirage. Much as I'd love it to happen (for selfish reasons of personal convenience). Many argue the business case is weak. And I don't see it improving substantially with a high density 77H. Maybe a high density 789?

Quoting longhauler (Reply 199):
I could see the rest of these new B777s on Hawaii flights, or BGI in season.

A 777 to Hawaii? Sure there's demand. But wouldn't AC be better served by using a 333 or 767?

Quoting longhauler (Reply 199):
AC has done this in the past with the three "low yield" B767s. In

3 aircraft. And this is what gets me about this announcement. The 77Hs will have the same cabin experience as Rouge. So then why does Rouge exist?

[Edited 2013-02-11 11:12:12]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: 9252fly
Posted 2013-02-11 10:40:34 and read 12056 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 200):
So then why does Rouge exists?

Thin low-yield seasonal markets.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: behramjee
Posted 2013-02-11 10:56:18 and read 12100 times.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 195):
Not happening non-stop with this config, it would put the plane very overweight with the amount of fuel needed to pull that off.

I doubt it as as Etihad operates a 412 seater B77W on AUH-ORD without any payload problems and that is a 14 hour 45 minute flight (I've flown on it) versus YYZ-PEK being 12 hours 50 minutes hence 2 hours less !

Keep mind too that EY has a more generous checked in baggage allowance than AC hence adding more to the take off weight.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-02-11 11:04:19 and read 12064 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 200):
Just a handful of aircraft really. But on this front, isn't this why Rouge was created? To permanently cater to low-yield markets? This is what I find odd about this scenario. These 77Hs have cabins on par with Rouge. And it's argued that this is to serve low-yield destinations. So then why does Rouge exists?

A lot of it has to do with the employee contracts. Presently, Rouge can only fly B767s and A319s. And, Rouge is starting with only 2 B767s, when as we know, there are more "low yield" markets than can be flown by 2 B767s. When looking at international competition, it would appear a high density B777 would be a better fit. Options were exercised, slots moved up ... and 5 are coming in the next 10 months.

As I have said earlier. It is probably best to leave the marketing decisions up to the experts, as they have far more information that you or I could ever imagine. And, not since the 5 abreast Viscount, has AC misjudged the Customer.

I see, LHR as a hugely different market than CDG. I have heard that yields to LHR are almost 50% higher on LHR flights than CDG. This makes sense as AC is the dominant carrier to LHR and "third in line" to CDG. So that is why I feel, (just my opinion) a 9 abreast B777 is better on LHR and a 10 abreast on CDG flights.

Quoting ytz (Reply 200):

I think there was some confusion earlier about the 6 lavs being for the Y cabin or the whole aircraft.

Yes, and they are using that error filled cartoon. I'll wait until i see the amendment to the B777 FCOM.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: manny
Posted 2013-02-11 11:07:54 and read 12065 times.

The 10 abreast seating is only a problem for people on aviation forums.

The general public does not notice these things. They might not even know what A/C type they are traveling on. As long as they can get into their seats they are just fine. If people are ever swayed away from an airline mostly its because of bad inflight service.

And now that North American carriers like AA, AC are doing this it will become more acceptable to most of the people who are against it.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-11 11:16:25 and read 12023 times.

Quoting manny (Reply 204):
The 10 abreast seating is only a problem for people on aviation forums.

Not to regurgitate the entire above discussion. But while Joe Q. Public may not know the immediate difference between 9 and 10 seats in his row, he most certainly will come away with an impression of the airline. And that will be something like "cramped seats".

In this case, it's not the 10-abreast that's bad. It's the 31" pitch in addition to 10-abreast.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: yyz717
Posted 2013-02-11 11:33:41 and read 11998 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 205):
But while Joe Q. Public may not know the immediate difference between 9 and 10 seats in his row, he most certainly will come away with an impression of the airline. And that will be something like "cramped seats".

In this case, it's not the 10-abreast that's bad. It's the 31" pitch in addition to 10-abreast.

Perhaps, but on a low yield route, AC is not out to impress necessarily.

Even if the "average" (read occasional) longhaul AC flier switched immediately from a 9-abreast 77W to a 10-abreast 77W, I doubt they would even notice.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-02-11 12:28:23 and read 11895 times.

Quoting manny (Reply 204):
The 10 abreast seating is only a problem for people on aviation forums.

The general public does not notice these things. They might not even know what A/C type they are traveling on. As long as they can get into their seats they are just fine. If people are ever swayed away from an airline mostly its because of bad inflight service.

Didn't BA configure some 777s for the Caribbean markets as 10-abreast at one time, only to revert to 9-abreast after significant negative customer feedback? That would suggest customers do notice the difference?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-11 12:32:12 and read 11880 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 206):
Even if the "average" (read occasional) longhaul AC flier switched immediately from a 9-abreast 77W to a 10-abreast 77W, I doubt they would even notice.

Right. But your slightly above average corporate traveler who flies often enough in Y, but less than enough to get him status, most certainly wil.

And unlike your average Joe, they know there are other options....their colleagues tell them about it.

Oh well. AC can roll the dice and see what happens. It'll be interesting to see how those paying higher fares for Y on YUL-CDG react.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-11 12:52:30 and read 11850 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 200):
The 77Hs will have the same cabin experience as Rouge.

Disagree. The 7-abreast Rouge 763s will be much better than the 10-abreast 77Ws.

And the cabin experience has other differences. Alcoholic drinks aren't free on Rouge as they are in Y class on AC longhaul international flights.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-11 13:18:28 and read 11801 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 207):
Didn't BA configure some 777s for the Caribbean markets as 10-abreast at one time, only to revert to 9-abreast after significant negative customer feedback? That would suggest customers do notice the difference?

What he really means to say is that Canadians won't notice. And he may well be right about that. Canadians don't complain about paying higher airfares, mobile service charges, cable fees, or food prices. It's the Canadian way to bend over and take it.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 209):
Alcoholic drinks aren't free on Rouge as they are in Y class on AC longhaul international flights.

No amount of alcohol is going to compensate for how the knee pain of sitting on a plane with 31" pitch for 8+ hours or having to deal with the discomfort of the bathroom stench after 65 other people have used it.....

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: behramjee
Posted 2013-02-11 13:29:46 and read 11777 times.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 195):
Not happening non-stop with this config, it would put the plane very overweight with the amount of fuel needed to pull that off.

another example i.e. Air France uses their 468 seater B77Ws on BKK-CDG which is a 12 hour 20 minute flight in itself

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-02-11 13:35:35 and read 11758 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 205):
But while Joe Q. Public may not know the immediate difference between 9 and 10 seats in his row, he most certainly will come away with an impression of the airline. And that will be something like "cramped seats".

And yet Air Transat owes its very existence to the fact that people either don't notice, don't care or don't remember. We have all heard Air Transat horror stories ... and last summer Air Transat carried more people across the Atlantic than Air Canada.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-11 13:38:28 and read 11738 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 210):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 209):
Alcoholic drinks aren't free on Rouge as they are in Y class on AC longhaul international flights.

No amount of alcohol is going to compensate for how the knee pain of sitting on a plane with 31" pitch for 8+ hours

Many carriers use 31 inch pitch in Y for flights much longer than 8 hours. The new lightweight, thin-back seats on the AC high-density 77Ws wil llikely have more effective legroom than the current 32 inch pitch seats. The effective difference with the new seat types being used by many carriers is often at least 2 inches.

60 Y seats on AC A333s are 31 inch pitch, as are quite a few seats on the 763s.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2013-02-11 13:44:23 and read 11714 times.

Sorry is this right?
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Air_Canada/

B77W / B77L
Pitch 32.0 / Width 18.5

B763 Standard
Pitch 31-32 Width 17.83

B763 Leisure ( The Three Amigos - off to Rouge)
Pitch 30-32 Width 20-21

A330-300
Pitch 32.0 / Width 17.84

So some existing seats are 30" pitch already? We've just done 213 posts over one inch of legroom on an aircraft pitched at lower yielding markets?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-11 14:10:16 and read 11667 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 214):
A330-300
Pitch 32.0 / Width 17.84

AC A330-300s Y class pitch varies from 31" to 33" as follows (per AC website seat map):

All outboard rows 32" except 31" rows 26-30 and 42-51.
Center rows 18-30 33".
Center rows 34-50 32".

Most Y seats on the AC A333s lost an inch of pitch when they installed the flat-bed J seats a few years ago.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2013-02-11 15:33:07 and read 11515 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 209):
Disagree. The 7-abreast Rouge 763s will be much better than the 10-abreast 77Ws.

And the cabin experience has other differences. Alcoholic drinks aren't free on Rouge as they are in Y class on AC longhaul international flights.

And just today, I saw a full page spread of AC being N. America's only four star international airline ( thought that was pretty funny - I haven't seen Porter advertise its own much longer standing 4 star status). The amusing thing is that the mainline carrier might actually offer a worse product than its LCC. Given that 767s already have seats with 31" pitch, I suppose the only way to bring it on par/make it worse than these 5 mainline 777s would be to reduce seat pitch to a Ryanair-esque 30", which I won't put past AC, not after the double whammy of reducing both width and pitch (if they had left it at 32", I would be a little more understanding).

Quoting longhauler (Reply 212):
And yet Air Transat owes its very existence to the fact that people either don't notice, don't care or don't remember. We have all heard Air Transat horror stories ... and last summer Air Transat carried more people across the Atlantic than Air Canada.
TS owes its existence to flexible travellers (read pensioners and students) who make one or two trips a year. Not a market to be scoffed at, for sure, but hardly the same as people who fly a little more often These high density aircraft will come in handy in summer, but an airline requires some degree of loyalty to fill those seats off-peak - and looking to people who travel once or twice a year won't help much with that. Its the (relatively) frequent fliers - the band who do 3-6 longhaul trips a year who they need to have coming back, but will they? Between the recent devaluation of the FF program, the poor product on these aircraft, how many people will keep coming back if there are alternatives? Its going to be interesting to watch, given how focused AC appears to be on thinning the lower yielding (read frequent Y pax) ranks of its frequent flier base. If they don't keep coming back....well, I know the aircraft will probably move from Europe to LATAM to deal with the different peaks, but theres a lot of weeks in there that are off-peak in both markets.

On the bright side, I genuinely believe that the introduction of these aircraft could result in ex-US type Y+ fares off-peak, which would be a real boon for Canadians.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 213):
Many carriers use 31 inch pitch in Y for flights much longer than 8 hours. The new lightweight, thin-back seats on the AC high-density 77Ws wil llikely have more effective legroom than the current 32 inch pitch seats.

Repeating this again and again won't change the fact that the "lightweight, thin-back" seats are more uncomfortable for other parts of the body. This legroom 'efficiency' is coming at the cost of a comfortable seat (think back and the literal 'seat'). For all the talk of legroom being the same, I think its pretty obvious that these seats are going to be significantly more uncomfortable than what preceded them. Focussing on one angle (legroom) isn't going to change that. I've said it before and I'll say it again - if they put plastic fold up chairs - the type that Ikea sells for 5.99, they'll probably manage 33"+ of legroom.

No matter how you spin it - new ergonomic lightweight thin-back seats - they're still going to be more uncomfortable than what preceded them. That is the point that a lot of people are making. Even if they get that extra inch of legroom by virtue of the efficiency of the new seat, the comfort gained is negated, or even reversed, by how uncomfortable the actual seat is. Try sitting on an unpadded park bench for 6 hours +. All the legroom in the world, but you'll still find it uncomfortable.

That aside - I agree that many carriers have 31" legroom in longhaul cabin. Mostly European ones. Not sure they're the best example to follow, since none of them are doing particularly well - they're all losing pax to Asian and ME carriers, most, if not all, of whom boast, among other things, more legroom.

[Edited 2013-02-11 15:34:05]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-11 15:55:54 and read 11468 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 216):
No matter how you spin it - new ergonomic lightweight thin-back seats - they're still going to be more uncomfortable than what preceded them. That is the point that a lot of people are making. Even if they get that extra inch of legroom by virtue of the efficiency of the new seat, the comfort gained is negated, or even reversed, by how uncomfortable the actual seat is. Try sitting on an unpadded park bench for 6 hours +. All the legroom in the world, but you'll still find it uncomfortable.

Not always. LX replaced all their narrowbody (A319/320/321 and Avro RJ100) seats with new Recaro lightweight, thin-back seats a few years ago, reducing seat pitch by at least 2 if not 3 inches and adding several more rows of seats (except to the Avro RJs to avoid the need for a 3rd flight attendant). I find the new seats much more comfortable than the old seats, and with at least as much, if not more, legroom than the old seats.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2013-02-11 16:16:58 and read 11435 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 217):
I find the new seats much more comfortable than the old seats, and with at least as much, if not more, legroom than the old seats.

Well, I suppose the question then is: would you fancy sitting in those seats for a 6hr + flight? Because that seems to be the way these 31" longhaul aircraft are going.

For a 2 hour flight, I can handle park bench, if I have to. That equation changes with time.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: Skydrol
Posted 2013-02-11 16:24:58 and read 11404 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 218):
Well, I suppose the question then is: would you fancy sitting in those seats for a 6hr + flight? Because that seems to be the way these 31" longhaul aircraft are going.

And what makes the thin-back seats even worse, is if they also contain IFE electronics and TV for the passenger behind. They might not be too bad if there is no seatback TVs, but if there is, very,very little in the way of foam padding.



✈ LD4 ✈

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-11 16:27:10 and read 11412 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 216):
if they had left it at 32", I would be a little more understanding

This.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 216):
Not sure they're the best example to follow, since none of them are doing particularly well - they're all losing pax to Asian and ME carriers, most, if not all, of whom boast, among other things, more legroom.

Oh well. AC seems determined to rush headlong to that destiny too.

I just booked my tix to my cousin's wedding in India. TK Comfort Class IST and Economy IST-BOM. And decided to have a short two day stopover in IST. The parents will be joining me too. Tickets were $1825 each. 16 hours of flight time in each direction.

And AC wants $1000 each way for YUL-CDG, a 7-hr run? Laughable. And having experience both the seat and the catering on TK last year, I can't even imagine AC coming close. I think TK's Comfort Class catering beats out AC in J!

http://www.turkishairlines.com/en-in...nment-seat-cip-lounge#ComfortClass
Posted 2013-02-11 16:50:49 and read 11355 times.

For some reason, a.net is being funny with the AC link. Anyway, airlinemeals.net (what's not on the internet these days?) is quite interesting too for comparison.

[Edited 2013-02-11 16:53:36]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-11 17:45:36 and read 11262 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 220):
And AC wants $1000 each way for YUL-CDG, a 7-hr run? Laughable.

If they can sell YUL-CDG for $1,000, why should they not do so? Shouldn't they be trying to maximize their revenue and profits? Doing anything else isn't in the interest of their shareholders. And they wouldn't be selling $1,000 fares unless customers were willing to buy them. You have many other options from YUL to CDG than AC, including via half a dozen other European hubs or via the U.S.

And $2,000 isn't a typical round trip YUL-CDG fare if you;re referring to Y class. Checked a few random dates in March and AC's lowest Y class fare YUL-CDG-YUL is about $1,300 including all taxes/fees. Only Air Transat is cheaper for nonstop service and AC is about $40 lower than AF. To get a lower fare you would have to connect via the U.S. or Europe with all the extra time, inconvenience and increased likelihood of bags going astray, and most of those fares are only about $100 or less below AC (for example BA on the same dates is $49 cheaper via LHR). US Airways is one exception as they have some rather low connecting fares.

If you're pricing isn't competitive these days you are going to be flying empty and I'm sure AC's YUL-CDG flights aren't empty.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2013-02-11 19:15:58 and read 11178 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 222):
Checked a few random dates in March and AC's lowest Y class fare YUL-CDG-YUL is about $1,300 including all taxes/fees.

I paid $1385 for VS Y+ LHR-DEL in December peak. In other words, that $1300 fare represents incredibly poor value-for-money.

As such, I agree that if consumers are stupid/ignorant and theres money to be made, any airline would be daft not to capitalize on it. In a country with lower disposable income and higher household debt than the US, we also have the privelege of paying higher airfares than the US. No wonder Carney is issuing warnings on a regular basis.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 222):
Only Air Transat is cheaper for nonstop service and AC is about $40 lower than AF. To get a lower fare you would have to connect via the U.S. or Europe with all the extra time, inconvenience and increased likelihood of bags going astray, and most of those fares are only about $100 or less below AC (for example BA on the same dates is $49 cheaper via LHR). US Airways is one exception as they have some rather low connecting fares.

ITA matrix informs me that a 9 night trip from YUL-CDG between March 6- April 3 costs:

TS: $713 (on the days that it flies - it is not a daily service)
AC: $1330
AF: $1330

I look forward to the day when AC charges $713. Or even $800. Not holding my breath. PS - those planes will fill up regardless of the fares - such is the beauty of the underserved market.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-11 20:00:49 and read 11126 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 222):
And $2,000 isn't a typical round trip YUL-CDG fare if you;re referring to Y class. Checked a few random dates in March and AC's lowest Y class fare YUL-CDG-YUL is about $1,300 including all taxes/fees.

I was referring to Y+. Sad that you think $2000 for YUL-CDG is both feasible and acceptable for such a trip. Only shows how poorly Canadians are served and how willing we are too accept third rate service.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: anrec80
Posted 2013-02-11 21:35:32 and read 11034 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 145):
Sounds democratic and peaceful/friendly, but EK is based in a country with some of the world's worst human rights abuses: endemic discrimination against women, gays, Jews. Why is Canada even allowing EK ANY landing rights in Canada? Dubai does not share our values.....we do not need to trade with this barbaric nation.
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 145):
I wish democracy WOULD dictate what our air negotiators did....airlines from barbarcic, undemocratic nations such as the UAE, Pakistan, Egypt, China, Turkey etc etc would all be banned from Cdn airports (until their governments improved their human rights records).

Sorry for being a bit cynical here. If we look at our Southern neighbors, we'll see the likes of EK and EY roam pretty much anywhere they feel like as much as they feel like. I do mean destination and frequencies, but not only. In both leaders of the democratic world - EU and US - all those carriers are represented widely.

In addition, in Everett they are testing brand new 748s for Kuwaiti and Qatar leaders. On the other side of the pond, Airbus is building flying palaces that will certainly not used to carry democratically elected German Councillor or Her Majesty Queen of Britain. Do they care about democracy? Maybe, but they also care about business, taxes and jobs that those governments bring. You certainly can refuse to cooperate with them for ideological reasons, but there will be someone else in the developed democratic world who is tired of joblessness and trade deficits and will gladly pick up the order.

In case of EK SEA service, some business went from YVR to SEA. While on one side of the border there are talks about "undemocratic" EK, on the other they silently count revenue. Who is at gain and who is at loss?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: StarAC17
Posted 2013-02-11 21:54:25 and read 11028 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 224):
I was referring to Y+. Sad that you think $2000 for YUL-CDG is both feasible and acceptable for such a trip. Only shows how poorly Canadians are served and how willing we are too accept third rate service.

There are no restrictions in terms of capacity on YUL-CDG and it has 4 carriers operating it IIRC. There is an Openskies agreement with the EU, you may have a point if this was to South Asia but this is a non-stop flight with no constraints.

You can fly YUL-DOH-CDG on QR if you wish but even the cheapest passengers aren't doing that.

The only restriction I can think of is fleet limitations.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 223):
I look forward to the day when AC charges $713. Or even $800. Not holding my breath. PS - those planes will fill up regardless of the fares - such is the beauty of the underserved market.

Feel free to fly TS then, also where is your beef with AF as they are charging the same price as AC.

For YUL-CDG for those dates that Viscount entered this is the market price. Now unless you are accusing the operators of YUL-CDG of collusion this is business and they are getting customers at that price.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W
Username: SA7700
Posted 2013-02-12 02:38:36 and read 10702 times.

This thread has run its course, filled with constant off-topic posts. It will now be locked for further contributions. Any posts added after the thread lock will be removed for housekeeping purposes only.

Thanks for your co-operation.

Regards,

SA7700


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