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Topic: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: doulasc
Posted 2013-02-12 18:45:07 and read 16411 times.

I know there is an embargo for Boeing to sell planes to Cubana due to the US embargo on Cuba. Airbus is a French Company.
Is there a embargo for France too causing Airbus being prohibited to sell planes to Cubana. Right now Cubana can only buy planes from Illyshin. Those photos you see of a Cubana A320 are sub leased from TACA.

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: BMI727
Posted 2013-02-12 18:48:32 and read 16407 times.

I'm sure it's because all Airbus planes have at least some US content in them. They'd have to purge and re-engineer quite a bit to sell them to Cuba.

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: maxpower1954
Posted 2013-02-12 19:04:43 and read 16280 times.

Cubana can operate second hand Boeings or Airbuses if they want. They flew two DC-8-43s back in the 1970s.

[Edited 2013-02-12 19:07:45]

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: Navion
Posted 2013-02-12 19:20:46 and read 16185 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
I'm sure it's because all Airbus planes have at least some US content in them.

That's the understatement of the year so far. Airbus aircraft have more than "some" U.S. content. Airbus aircraft have significant U.S. content.

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2013-02-12 19:35:47 and read 16099 times.

Quoting Navion (Reply 3):
That's the understatement of the year so far. Airbus aircraft have more than "some" U.S. content. Airbus aircraft have significant U.S. content.

At least 40% of your average Airbus aircraft, including critical components such as avionics, interior components, and engines, is made out of parts that come from US suppliers.

Even if CU wanted to order an A332 with Rolls-Royce engines, they couldn't because the avionics come from US suppliers and are subject to the embargo. IR actually faced a similar problem several years back when they ordered A330s with Rolls engines - the US-made avionics killed the deal.

[Edited 2013-02-12 19:53:09]

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: gigneil
Posted 2013-02-12 19:43:44 and read 16041 times.

Actually worse than that for IR... that embargo has far more signatories than just the US.

Cubana - eh.

NS

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: Apprentice
Posted 2013-02-12 20:28:51 and read 15803 times.

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 2):


Cubana can not operate even second hand western a/c, same reason, embargo, will made impossible to get spares parts, insurance, finance..
In the 70s , 4 dc-8, were leased, guess wet leased, to Air Canada, in the nineties, up to 4 DC-10, wet leased from former french company AOM, the operation was a difficult one, a simple spare o-ring had to be received from Paris, nothing could come from US. Even there were complaints from Sony about embargo's violation for using their tape reproducers.

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2013-02-12 20:34:24 and read 15763 times.

Quoting Apprentice (Reply 6):
Even there were complaints from Sony about embargo's violation for using their tape reproducers.

Which is funny, since Sony is a Japanese company.

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-02-12 20:36:02 and read 15757 times.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 4):
Quoting Navion (Reply 3):
That's the understatement of the year so far. Airbus aircraft have more than "some" U.S. content. Airbus aircraft have significant U.S. content.

At least 40% of your average Airbus aircraft, including critical components such as avionics, interior components, and engines, is made out of parts that come from US suppliers.

   I've seen RR turbine blades being manufactured in the USA. The global supply chain crosses many boarders. If anyone reads the book "Lexus and the Olive Tree" it goes into the advantages of being in the 'golden horde' (basically, an investor or participant in the global supply chain) and the penalties for being outside.

Heck, the latest aircraft from China and Russia will all have US content. (Ghad, I do not miss export license paperwork... )

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2013-02-12 20:40:24 and read 15729 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 8):
I've seen RR turbine blades being manufactured in the USA.

Rolls-Royce also has complete aircraft and helicopter engine plants in Indiana (the former Allison plant in IND) and Virginia, along with a huge R&D center in IND.

In fact, more Rolls engines (including former Allison products) have been built in the US than in any other country, including their homeland of Britain.

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: Aesma
Posted 2013-02-12 21:27:57 and read 15573 times.

Not only France doesn't support the embargo but is against it (and Fidel came to France in the 80's). But Cuba isn't worth the trouble of alienating the US or developing a US-content free airplane.

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-02-12 21:46:20 and read 15474 times.

Quoting Apprentice (Reply 6):
In the 70s , 4 dc-8, were leased, guess wet leased, to Air Canada

They weren't wet leased ... just leased. Three were operated by Cubana, one was returned, one crashed after take-off from BGI and the last was damaged in a mid-air collision near HAV where it landed, was stored, then broken up.

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2013-02-12 22:11:29 and read 15382 times.

Cubana is already operating 3 Airbus 320 200's ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubana#Fleet

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: flyingalex
Posted 2013-02-13 01:09:04 and read 14958 times.

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
Right now Cubana can only buy planes from Illyshin.

Sorry to nitpick, but you forgot about these:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ricardo Morales - Aviation Photography of Mexico


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Rodolfo García López - Aviation Photography of Mexico.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Wayne Campbell-CYYZ Aviation Photography

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-02-13 02:36:20 and read 14650 times.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 12):
Cubana is already operating 3 Airbus 320 200's ....

Confirmed: http://www.cubana.cu/guide/?article=A320

I'd guess these are standard A320s with their US-built parts and all, and yet this doesn't seem to be a problem.

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-13 02:53:26 and read 14561 times.

Quoting Apprentice (Reply 6):
Cubana can not operate even second hand western a/c, same reason, embargo, will made impossible to get spares parts, insurance, finance..

Aerogaviota have four ATR42-500, though, which they got brand-new from ATR in 2002.
I actually saw one of them in operation in late March 2012 (while I got to fly on an ex-military An-26...)
Not quite sure how that deal worked exactly with regard to US content, which is surely found in the ATRs as well.

The embargo would be one problem for Cubana and Aerogaviota, but I think lack of funds to get replacement parts for Western aircraft is at least as big a factor.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 14):
Confirmed: http://www.cubana.cu/guide/?article=A320

I'd guess these are standard A320s with their US-built parts and all, and yet this doesn't seem to be a problem.

I think all of them are/were leased or even wet-leased.
Those photos I could find of Cubana A320s were of hybrid liveries (Cubana/TransAer and Cubana/TACA), and the planes still had their non-Cuban registrations: EI-TLH in one case, N464TA in the other.
According to planespotters.net, TACA was/is the actual operator of most A320s for Cubana.

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: migair54
Posted 2013-02-13 02:59:16 and read 14532 times.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 12):
Cubana is already operating 3 Airbus 320 200's ....

they are leased from TACA but they are EI registered, from Ireland and not N- like many other TACA planes... I heard some gossip about that planes, and some indicate that this planes belongs to a company with good political connexions in Washington, that´s why they are flying for CU, some other airlines try to lease planes to CU and because the embargo they had to leave, Air Europa, Novair, Hola among others....

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
I know there is an embargo for Boeing to sell planes to Cubana due to the US embargo on Cuba. Airbus is a French Company.

Even Embraer is not allow to sell to Cuba, I thing if 5% of the total plane is from USA then the embargo is applicable....

Quoting longhauler (Reply 11):
They weren't wet leased ... just leased. Three were operated by Cubana, one was returned, one crashed after take-off from BGI and the last was damaged in a mid-air collision near HAV where it landed, was stored, then broken up.

FYI, it didn´t crash, it was a bomb on board.

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
Right now Cubana can only buy planes from Illyshin

I think right now Cubana only has · il-96 but they operate, airbus, tupolev, antonov and yakolev......And Aerocaribbean and Aerogaviota operates ATR as well...

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: IMissPiedmont
Posted 2013-02-13 03:49:18 and read 14336 times.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 10):

Along with the vast majority of the American population.

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: lh526
Posted 2013-02-13 03:52:51 and read 14316 times.

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 13):
Sorry to nitpick, but you forgot about these:

So and there's not the slightest content of US made engineering in these russian planes? Avionics, electronics, etc?

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: pvjin
Posted 2013-02-13 03:56:54 and read 14300 times.

I hope this ridiculous embargo would be removed soon, it's pathetic how some people who support it still seem to live in cold war times. Kind of ironic how the very same people who are against all interfering of US government in business, guns, etc, still support this kind of thing that severely restricts one basic human right, freedom of travel.

Though I hope Cubana would keep their Il-96 even after removal of the embargo, when I've finished my studies here I certainly want to visit Cuba again, this time flying there in proper Russian made bird.

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: Apprentice
Posted 2013-02-13 05:40:40 and read 13967 times.

TACA planes are not longer flying for Cubana, ISO, I heard they are using 2 A320 from some Blatic country.
All the western planes operated after 90s are wet leased, the easy way to avoid embargo issues. In some cases, like A320, crew and mx is from Cubana but "enrolled" in the owner airline, that's the reason for TACA's EI- registered a/c, to get crew covered by EASA licence, there is not way for them to get an FAA one.

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-13 06:07:00 and read 13868 times.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 16):
they are leased from TACA but they are EI registered, from Ireland and not N- like many other TACA planes...

I could find this photo of an N-registered TACA A320 wearing additional Cubana titles:
http://www.planespotters.net/Aviation_Photos/photo.show?id=249589

Quoting Apprentice (Reply 20):
All the western planes operated after 90s are wet leased, the easy way to avoid embargo issues

The four Aerogaviota ATR42-500 were bought directly from ATR, though, and have Cuban registrations?

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Stephen B. Aranha



Again, I have no idea how the sale of those four ATRs was brokered (if anybody has details on this, I'd be most curious to hear them   ), but it seems they were ordered and are now owned and operated by the Cuban airline Aerogaviota.

[Edited 2013-02-13 06:08:17]

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-02-13 06:19:21 and read 13792 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
I'm sure it's because all Airbus planes have at least some US content in them. They'd have to purge and re-engineer quite a bit to sell them to Cuba.

It has absolutely nothing to do with having US parts. In simple terms the embargo states that any company doing business in Cuba will not be allowed to do business in the US. So if Airbus wants to make and sell planes in the US, they can't sell planes to Cuba. Since Cuba is a tiny market, selling planes to Cuba is not a battle worth fighting for airbus.
However I'm not sure what loophole exists that allows companies like AC, IB, etc to operate to Cuba and the US at the same time because in theory they are doing business in Cuba.

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-02-13 06:26:03 and read 13641 times.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 16):
FYI, it didn´t crash, it was a bomb on board.

That is correct, (I have a copy of the accident report).
There were no Air Canada personnel on board.

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: maxpower1954
Posted 2013-02-13 06:32:38 and read 13521 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 22):
In simple terms the embargo states that any company doing business in Cuba will not be allowed to do business in the US.

So does that exempt the many Canadian companies that do business in Cuba and the U.S.?

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-13 06:45:35 and read 13969 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 22):
It has absolutely nothing to do with having US parts. In simple terms the embargo states that any company doing business in Cuba will not be allowed to do business in the US.

I'm pretty sure that it doesn't work that way, and I don't know how this would work legally, anyway.
The embargo does extend to non-US subsidiaries of US companies, but under international law, the US has no legal leverage over non-US companies regarding their dealings with Cuba.
Take MasterCard or Visa - both are US companies, and none of their cards are issues without those companies being a partner to the transaction. However, both my MasterCard and Visa cards worked just fine in Cuba - they were issued by an Irish and a German bank, which in turn quite certainly do business with the US.
I'm assured that a MasterCard or Visa card issued by an American bank would of course not have worked.

In fact, many goods and services are sold in Cuba that are made/provided by non-US companies (European, Japanese, Chinese for the most part) that also do business in the US. DHL and (non-US) sportswear brands come to mind from my own memory of having visited Cuba last year. I also saw LG and Samsung TVs, although those may have been sourced - like Coca-Cola - from Mexico or other Central/Latin American countries.
Extending this to airlines - we were on KL, who by flying to Cuba are doing business with them, but who are also serving US destinations.

Now, politically, all of that is a different matter of course. If Airbus chose to sell planes to Cubana, the US wouldn't necessarily have much of a legal case, but may put pressure on the EU (or Germany/France/Spain individually) to not proceed with that deal, and the EU would probably comply to avoid any political fallout from what would only amount to a minor deal.

[Edited 2013-02-13 06:47:42]

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-02-13 07:03:27 and read 13537 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 22):
It has absolutely nothing to do with having US parts.

Export licences would be revoked. Under the license of the parts sold the US does dictate whom the parts can be re-exported to. Controlling the parts is how the US controls the exports.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 25):
but under international law, the US has no legal leverage over non-US companies regarding their dealings with Cuba.

Under US export law exporting weapons, which aircraft parts are considered to be, revokes the export license. Thus while the sale to Cuba couldn't be stopped, the flow of parts from the USA would be.


There is nothing illegal about the US restricting who they sell weapons to and aviation parts are considered 'dual use' and thus treated as weapons.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: flyb
Posted 2013-02-13 07:30:57 and read 13249 times.

They company I work for in Canada does business in the United States. If we get a part ordered in from the United States, some of our suppliers (all are supposed to) ask where the part is intended for; as if the part ends up in Cuba they as the US company are responsible. As stated by lightsaber, if the us company got caught they would face problems with their export licence.

Being in Havana last month, I can tell you that there are lots of American products in Cuba. Sure most of the cars are from Europe. But you can buy Pringles, or Coke at ease as it is imported via a secondary country like Mexico, Canada, or Argentina.

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: ushermittwoch
Posted 2013-02-13 07:46:06 and read 12867 times.

Quoting flyb (Reply 27):
Being in Havana last month, I can tell you that there are lots of American products in Cuba. Sure most of the cars are from Europe. But you can buy Pringles, or Coke at ease as it is imported via a secondary country like Mexico, Canada, or Argentina.

Of course US companies want to make a few bucks in Cuba. But nobody will openly admit to this.

Also, this pathetic embargo needs to stop. Too bad Obama is actually a hawk and not a liberal.

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-13 07:52:38 and read 12718 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 26):
Under US export law exporting weapons, which aircraft parts are considered to be, revokes the export license. Thus while the sale to Cuba couldn't be stopped, the flow of parts from the USA would be.

It's possible (even likely) that the flow of parts could be stopped if it was known that the parts were to be used on a plane that is to be sold to Cuba.
But classifying an ATR42 or A320 as a "weapon" seems - uhm - interesting, to say the least, and I'd like to see the regulations that allegedly put an A320 into the same category as a Typhoon or Saab Gripen.

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: goosebayguy
Posted 2013-02-13 08:18:48 and read 12295 times.

It amazes me that America is still so paranoid about Cuba. Or is it that Cuba has such a great health system that Americans will spend their health dollars in Cuba devastating US hospitals?

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: francoflier
Posted 2013-02-13 08:27:20 and read 12135 times.

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
Airbus is a French Company.

Airbus is NOT a French company. It is a European conglomerate headquartered in Toulouse. I could see the point if a majority of the Capital was French, but it's not even the case.

I never ceases to amaze me that this still needs to be stressed on this forum...

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: EGPH
Posted 2013-02-13 08:28:33 and read 12060 times.

What I heard, though I don't know where was that there is nothing to stop Airbus or Embraer from selling planes to Cuba even if the plane was 99.9% US made as the company doing the deal is European. The problem then is that the US government could put pressure on those suppliers supplying Airbus or Embraer to cut ties with those manufacturers or face internal sanctions (not sure what). Though I would have thought to many of these American companies their contracts with Airbus etc would be very lucrative and not something they would want to throw away to uphold an outdated embargo.

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: flyb
Posted 2013-02-13 08:41:50 and read 11818 times.

Exactly. The company supplying Airbus could be fined.

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-02-13 09:17:00 and read 11299 times.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 29):
But classifying an ATR42 or A320 as a "weapon" seems - uhm - interesting, to say the least,

   It is the dual use sub-parts that could (and often have) been used to build a weapon.

As long as the plane was exported without the dual use parts, that would be ok.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 29):
I'd like to see the regulations that allegedly put an A320 into the same category as a Typhoon or Saab Gripen.

That is *not* the case. The Typhoon is a weapons system that has further export restrictions due to stealth and classified hardware. The A320 simply comes under the 'dual use' scenario. Commercial aircraft have been treated so ever since Iran discovered they could buy spares for the 707 that can be made to fit in an F-14.

Give me a complete A320 and I could McGyver a fighter back into the air. Or take the parts and re-assemble on a new simple (anyone could design) airframe for a cruise missile drone. Hence why the parts are 'dual use.' For example, the high temperature valves on the engine might only last 10% as long on a fighter, but they would work.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: maxpower1954
Posted 2013-02-13 09:24:42 and read 11144 times.

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 30):
It amazes me that America is still so paranoid about Cuba. Or is it that Cuba has such a great health system that Americans will spend their health dollars in Cuba devastating US hospitals?

It has nothing to do with paranoia. It has everything to do with the political influence on U.S. policy Cuba exiles who had their business and homes seized without any compensation whatsoever from the Revolutionary government over 50 years ago. Not to mention U.S. owned business that were also seized.

But I agree, the embargo is stupid and has had the effect of giving Castro a covienent scapegoat for his country's problems.
The quickest way to bring Cuba into the 21st century would be to lift the embargo and flood the place with U.S. dollars. But it won't happen until most of the exiles and Fidel have passed on.

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-13 09:30:33 and read 11002 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 34):
That is *not* the case. The Typhoon is a weapons system that has further export restrictions due to stealth and classified hardware. The A320 simply comes under the 'dual use' scenario.

Ah - thanks for the clarification!

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-02-13 09:33:49 and read 10987 times.

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 35):
The quickest way to bring Cuba into the 21st century would be to lift the embargo and flood the place with U.S. dollars.

Spot on. If the goal of the US were to bring down the communist regime in Cuba, that would be the correct strategy: liberalize commerce between Cuba and the US, flood the island with dollars, make the Cubans painfully aware of what they are missing. But, apparently, that's not the goal...

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-02-13 09:42:19 and read 10781 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 37):
make the Cubans painfully aware of what they are missing.

An interesting point, as I have a very good friend who is a Cuban national .... every Cuban has food, a place to live, education right up to the highest university level if desired, and access to medical and dental care. Very few countries can claim that, and certainly not the United States.

It appears the only thing they are missing is freedom!

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-02-13 09:47:36 and read 10702 times.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 25):

I'm pretty sure that it doesn't work that way, and I don't know how this would work legally, anyway.
The embargo does extend to non-US subsidiaries of US companies, but under international law, the US has no legal leverage over non-US companies regarding their dealings with Cuba.

True but the US certainly has legal leverage over what foreign company can do busines in the US. And that's what the embargo is all about. Since the US economy is so big and important to most companies, they will happilly stay out of, or have a low profile in Cuba to avoid problems with their US business.

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 24):
So does that exempt the many Canadian companies that do business in Cuba and the U.S.?

Like I said, I don't know what loopholes exist, or if the US government simply doesn't want to bother enforcing it since it would have a huge negative impact in the US economy.

As for the aircraft parts, it's not like airlines in Iran who currently operate western including Boeing and Airbus aircraft have ever had any trouble acquiring spares  

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-02-13 10:00:01 and read 10433 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 38):
every Cuban has food, a place to live, education right up to the highest university level if desired, and access to medical and dental care. Very few countries can claim that, and certainly not the United States.

This is very true. Not the USA, but many countries in Europe can claim that. That and much more.

I also know many Cubans living in Spain and with family over there: they all want to leave Cuba. Let's make it clear: people want to leave Cuba, not the other way around. People want to enter the EU and the USA, not the other way around. People risked their lives to go from Eastern Germany to Western Germany, not the other way around. And they had food, housing, medical care and education in Eastern Germany. There must be a reason for that.

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-13 10:00:58 and read 10383 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 38):
It appears the only thing they are missing is freedom!

Some choice, as well, I would think. You'll know what I mean if you ever compared what's on offer in shops that sell in Cuban pesos (or in exchange for food stamps) with what's on offer in the shops that sell in convertible pesos (CUCs). The latter being much, much harder to come by for the average Cuban, particularly outside Havana. Interestingly, that system of separate shops for separate currencies is similar to the German Democratic Republic; they also had "Intershops" - they were open to anybody and offered many domestic but higher-quality products alongside Western products that were otherwise hard to come by or simply unavailable in the GDR. The catch was of course: Intershops only accepted West German Marks and other convertible currencies.
A lack of choice also in politics, of course - just look at how there were exactly 614 nominees for the 614 seats in parliament during the elections held on the weekend before last.

But I do agree that a huge amount of money and a 1:1 copy of Anglo-Saxon capitalism isn't what the Cuban people need, nor what I would wish upon them.

Seems in any case that a lack of Boeing and Airbus planes and any investment from the US is not what helps bring down the Castros, which I think is saying something about the effectiveness of an embargo that's been in place for over 50 years.

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-02-13 10:04:27 and read 10337 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 40):
Let's make it clear: people want to leave Cuba, not the other way around.

I agree. My Cuban friend mentions that of the hundreds of his friends, family, associates etc. that have left Cuba legally, absolutely none have returned. While i don't think you are I take freedom for granted, apparently it is worth quite a bit!

We could discuss this further, but it would be a huge topic swing!

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2013-02-13 10:20:48 and read 9954 times.

I think that the Cuban embargo should be lifted as well, even if just the travel embargo is lifted to start. And I think steps are being made in the right direction both policywise (US telecoms can now build cell phone networks in Cuba, though I don't think one has yet) and politically (Dan Burton, the "Burton" of the Helms-Burton Act of 1996 and one of the strongest embargo proponents, retired recently from the House).

But even if the travel embargo is lifted, there would be a shortage of hotel rooms in Cuba overnight, as the capacity there only fits the current market. There simply aren't enough quality hotel rooms either now or in the pipeline to handle the inevitable onslaught of US tourists.

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: AF1624
Posted 2013-02-13 10:39:44 and read 9662 times.

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
Airbus is a French Company.

This needs pointing out all the time.

Airbus is a 100% controlled subsidiary of EADS, after BAE Systems sold its 20% to them in 2006.

So Airbus is now wholly owned by EADS.

EADS is a pan European aeronautics & defence corporation, with headquarters in the Netherlands, mostly privately owned.

So Airbus is most definitely NOT a French company.

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: KaiTak747
Posted 2013-02-13 10:49:01 and read 9500 times.

Even if Cubana could buy Airbus frames new I don't think they would. Cubana is sate owned, and due to the state's very cosy relationship with Russia, they will always buy Russian aircraft. If anything it is great for diplomatic relations.

Not that there is any think wrong with Russian airliners of course, and I'm sure they are suitable for all of Cubana's missions. They probably get a sweet deal as well, with extensive maintenance and parts support. Or maybe I am barking up the wrong tree!

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 34):

Very interesting... thank you!

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-02-13 10:53:08 and read 9390 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 42):
We could discuss this further, but it would be a huge topic swing!

And, actually, I think we are mostly, if not wholly, in agreement...

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 43):
(Dan Burton, the "Burton" of the Helms-Burton Act of 1996 and one of the strongest embargo proponents, retired recently from the House).

And Helms died a few years ago, while Castro is still in power... So much for the effectiveness of the Helms-Burton Act....

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2013-02-13 10:54:30 and read 9375 times.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 19):
I hope this ridiculous embargo would be removed soon, it's pathetic how some people who support it still seem to live in cold war times. Kind of ironic how the very same people who are against all interfering of US government in business, guns, etc, still support this kind of thing that severely restricts one basic human right, freedom of travel.

So do most Americans hope the ridiculous ineffective embargo will be lifted against Cuba. Remember, it's not about democracy for the Cuban people. It's about getting the political swing vote from Cuban-Americans in Florida.

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2013-02-13 11:34:47 and read 8688 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 47):
It's about getting the political swing vote from Cuban-Americans in Florida.

In many cases, yes (look at Senator Marco Rubio from Florida), but not always.

In fact, neither of the people behind Helms-Burton were from Florida: Dan Burton was an Indiana Congressman, while Jesse Helms was a North Carolina Senator.

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-02-13 12:23:30 and read 7887 times.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 43):
But even if the travel embargo is lifted, there would be a shortage of hotel rooms in Cuba overnight, as the capacity there only fits the current market. There simply aren't enough quality hotel rooms either now or in the pipeline to handle the inevitable onslaught of US tourists.

Not really. There are already many resorts in Cuba catering to tourists from Europe, Canada, Latin America, and even Americans. Sure a few more resorts would be built but I think the more likely scenario would be the Americans displacing or complementing the Europeans. For some odd reason, American and European tourists don't mix very often in the Caribbean. A lot of it has to do with the fact that the Europeans like to vacation in the Summer while Americans like to go there in the Winter months. Varadero is a resort town not unlike Cancun, for example.

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-13 13:00:31 and read 7260 times.

Quoting KaiTak747 (Reply 45):
Even if Cubana could buy Airbus frames new I don't think they would. Cubana is sate owned, and due to the state's very cosy relationship with Russia, they will always buy Russian aircraft. If anything it is great for diplomatic relations.

Except that relations have cooled down somewhat since the collapse of the Soviet Union. Back in the days, the USSR was a strong ally that financed huge infrastructure projects in Cuba, like the main "Autopista Nacional" A1 highway. When the USSR collapsed, that financing stopped. The highway is still unfinished and tapers out near Sancti Spiritus (with additional bits further West) - from Havana, that's about half the distance the pista was originally intended to cover. There was simply no money once USSR sponsorship had run out. Not even to maintain the existing autopista; except within a roughly 100km range from Havana, a lot of stretches of the pista is in a pretty shabby condition, based on our own experience driving on it from near Santa Clara to Havana. You'll encounter sudden massive potholes (and I'm used to potholes as some Irish roads aren't in the best of conditions either) as well as one or two 100-odd metre stretches where tarmac suddenly turns into something akin to lose chippings.

My point being - I'm pretty sure that if Cuban airlines had a choice, they would buy Airbus, Boeing, Embraer or Bombardier. Witness the four ATR42s they got. Also, witness airlines in the former East block - as soon as they did get a choice, they switched to Western equipment. Probably not so much because of a dislike of Russia, but because even a 10-year old Boeing or Airbus tends to be more efficient than a brand-new Tu-204 or Il-96. Which is a pity, as I for one would surely like to see more variety in the skies, but it is still a fact.

Quoting KaiTak747 (Reply 45):
Not that there is any think wrong with Russian airliners of course, and I'm sure they are suitable for all of Cubana's missions.

Depends on your definition of "suitable", I guess. We were on an ex-military An-26B - still complete with rear ramp and only eight cabin windows (four per side). As an airplane enthusiast, that was kind of cool; my wife wasn't so sure, though, and I have a feeling that CU and KG don't operate their old An-24 and An-26 Antonovs because they believe it's the best equipment money can buy, but because they don't really have a choice.

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: prost
Posted 2013-02-13 13:09:26 and read 7123 times.

I've never understood the embargo against Cuba, a nation we never technically went to war with, and yet we now have good trade relations with Vietnam, another communist nation where we lost over 30,000 lives in a 'police action.'

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-13 13:16:48 and read 6878 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 49):
Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 43):
"But even if the travel embargo is lifted, there would be a shortage of hotel rooms in Cuba overnight, as the capacity there only fits the current market. There simply aren't enough quality hotel rooms either now or in the pipeline to handle the inevitable onslaught of US tourists."

Not really. There are already many resorts in Cuba catering to tourists from Europe, Canada, Latin America, and even Americans. Sure a few more resorts would be built but I think the more likely scenario would be the Americans displacing or complementing the Europeans.

While it's true that there are certainly enough hotels and resorts in special tourist development zones like Varadero, Cayo Largo, etc., the same can't necessarily be said of accommodation options in other parts of the country. This includes even Havana, which probably has the highest density of hotels in Cuba outside tourist resort places like Varadero.
In fact, the lack of accommodation and restaurant options in Havana, Trinidad, Viñales, etc. was detrimental to the Cuban government's mid-1990s initiative to attract more tourists (and thus an alternative stream of money after the collapse of the USSR), which is why they allowed people to 1) open "Paladares" - privately-owned restaurants (with restrictions on the number of tables) and 2) declare their house a "casa particular", which allows them to rent out rooms to tourists; for a fee to the government and with restrictions to the number of rooms on offer.
The government probably wouldn't have resorted to allowing people that kind of entrepreneurship if it didn't have to. (By the way - for anybody planning to go to Cuba, I thoroughly recommend staying in casas particulares. Some of them - while looking run-down from the outside - are true gems on the inside, and the food, chat and hospitality they provide are remarkable.)

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: BMI727
Posted 2013-02-13 13:21:03 and read 6838 times.

Quoting prost (Reply 51):
I've never understood the embargo against Cuba, a nation we never technically went to war with,

The embargo stems from the fact that after taking power Castro nationalized (read "stole") foreign assets in Cuba, including quite a bit owned by Americans.

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: dergay
Posted 2013-02-13 13:33:54 and read 6616 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 53):
The embargo stems from the fact that after taking power Castro nationalized (read "stole") foreign assets in Cuba, including quite a bit owned by Americans.

I'm sure most Native Americans would empathise with your thoughts.

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-13 13:41:43 and read 6495 times.

Quoting dergay (Reply 54):
I'm sure most Native Americans would empathise with your thoughts.

I think BMI727 was just explaining the origins of the embargo (correctly, by the way), not necessarily saying that he agrees with it.

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: KaiTak747
Posted 2013-02-13 14:46:04 and read 5666 times.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 50):

Wow, sounds like you had an amazing trip to Cuba! Thanks for the insight, it sounds like Cubana will be flying rare and Russian types for the foreseeable future.

I wonder though if they would be able to buy from China and order the Comac C919 or ARJ21 when it comes out? Unless there is the same problem with American components in the aircraft, which would be very surprising if their weren't.

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: yyz717
Posted 2013-02-13 20:29:19 and read 2970 times.

Quoting Apprentice (Reply 6):
Cubana can not operate even second hand western a/c, same reason, embargo, will made impossible to get spares parts, insurance, finance..
Quoting UALWN (Reply 14):
I'd guess these are standard A320s with their US-built parts and all, and yet this doesn't seem to be a problem.
Quoting Apprentice (Reply 20):
All the western planes operated after 90s are wet leased, the easy way to avoid embargo issues.

According to aerotransport, Cubana operates 2 763's and 5 A320's all leased in, in addition to the IL-96 and TU-204's. It would be nice/interesting to know the SPECIFIC bounds/rules under which Cubana can and cannot operate Western aircraft. If wet or dry leases of Western aircraft are allowed (as seems to be case) but not ownership, that would seem to be a HUGE loop hole.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 22):
However I'm not sure what loophole exists that allows companies like AC, IB, etc to operate to Cuba and the US at the same time because in theory they are doing business in Cuba.

What about American, United and Spirit operating charters to HAV? Why does the US govt allow this apparent gross violation of their embargo?

Quoting longhauler (Reply 38):
every Cuban has food, a place to live, education right up to the highest university level if desired, and access to medical and dental care. Very few countries can claim that, and certainly not the United States.

It appears the only thing they are missing is freedom!

They are missing far more than freedom! How about a market economy backed up by an independent judiciary and rule of law, the necessary inputs to wealth creation? Singapore is a dictatorship, albeit benign, and yet its residents are wealthy due to their adherence to a market economy and law & order. Cubans need a market economy to build wealth before they need democratic freedom.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 53):
Quoting prost (Reply 51):
I've never understood the embargo against Cuba, a nation we never technically went to war with,

The embargo stems from the fact that after taking power Castro nationalized (read "stole") foreign assets in Cuba, including quite a bit owned by Americans.

The US still owes Britain $ for assets seized in 1776, so I find it ironic that Americans (not you, per se) get on their high horse about Cuba nationalizing/stealing assets much more recently (in 1959).

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: packsonflight
Posted 2013-02-13 20:49:26 and read 2916 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 60):
The US still owes Britain $ for assets seized in 1776, so I find it ironic that Americans (not you, per se) get on their high horse about Cuba nationalizing/stealing assets much more recently (in 1959).

Totally agree!!

On top of that, I dont understand why Uncle Sam is being so anal about this embargo. He would benefit enormously from lifting the embargo and start trading with Cuba. The country could export enormous amount of ethanol to the US from sugar cane.

Topic: RE: Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-13 21:14:53 and read 2867 times.

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 2):
Cubana can operate second hand Boeings or Airbuses if they want. They flew two DC-8-43s back in the 1970s.

The DC-8s were ex-AC. AC also trained the CU pilots. Canada has never had a trade emgargo with Cuba and those transactions with Cubana never had any impact on AC's activities in the U.S.


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