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Topic: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: doulasc
Posted 2013-02-07 13:01:23 and read 21535 times.

I heard some airlines have a no kid policy in their upper decks on A380 and 747s.which airlines are doing this?
Where do they draw the line on age? Whats the reasoning behind this?

Topic: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-02-07 13:04:59 and read 21519 times.

I believe MH has this policy too.

Topic: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: g500
Posted 2013-02-07 13:05:52 and read 21524 times.

What's the reasoning behind this?

I don't think business people want a screaming child seating next to them. That noise might music to parents' ears, but its pure torture to mine..

Kudos to whichever airlines are doing this

Topic: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-02-07 13:12:03 and read 21404 times.

Malaysia Airlines does not allow children under 12 to be seated in the upper deck Economy section of the A380-800 unless the main deck is full and they can only be accommodated in the upper deck. Malaysia Airlines also does not allow infants to be seated in the First Class cabin of their 747-400 aircraft.

AirAsia X has also banned children under 12 from the first seven rows on flights to China, Taiwan, Japan, Korea, Australia and Nepal. This forward section is separated from the rest of the plane with curtains and lavatories, so not sure how effective it will be unless the kids are parked in the aft of the plane.

Topic: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: goldenargosy
Posted 2013-02-07 13:13:51 and read 21387 times.

Looking forward to knowing which airlines do this. I will go out of my way to fly with them.

Topic: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-02-07 13:15:42 and read 21357 times.

Can I have a "no obnoxious drunks allowed" section on my flights? I have many more problems with poorly behaved adults than with poorly behaved children.

Topic: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: dfambro
Posted 2013-02-07 13:16:21 and read 21333 times.

UA will probably implement it with the 747s after what my toddler did during our last trip to Hong Kong...
        

Topic: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: reffado
Posted 2013-02-07 13:33:11 and read 21089 times.

While it makes sense, it may cause trouble. I agree that screaming infants are far from being a delight, but banning paying passengers from traveling with their kids in forward cabins seems a bit too much. What if I have a kid and want to fly F? I can't? That's just stupid. I say that because my first flight was when I was 2 - in the F cabin on the upper deck of an RG 747. My parents received no complaints. Because in Y there was not enough space and the whole family would be cramped, the wider seats were a need. I mean, if passengers want to upgrade, sure, it's a reason to deny them, but if they're paying, I can't see the logic.

[Edited 2013-02-07 13:35:54]

Topic: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: bond007
Posted 2013-02-07 13:40:24 and read 20983 times.

Quoting reffado (Reply 8):
What if I have a kid and want to fly F? I can't? That's just stupid. I say that because my first flight was when I was 2 - in the F cabin

I'm sure many F fare paying pax would be very upset (as I would be), having paid a very high premium, only to end up next to a screaming 2 year old for the whole flight.

When you say "if they're paying...", you must remember the other pax without children who are also paying. Often those who complain about their 'rights', forget about the 'rights' of all the others  


Jimbo

Topic: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: reffado
Posted 2013-02-07 13:48:50 and read 20900 times.

On the various flights I've been in, I've seen both, very calm (most of the times) and very annoying kids. The problem as I see it is the parents not controlling their children. That said, toddlers I may see the point, but for general young kids (9-12 or so), I would rather seat beside them than beside some fat person, or a lousy smelly adult, which I have seen several times.

However, I do understand what you said, and seeing it that way, it does make sense. But, at least here, I can't see someone showing up with say, $5000 for an F ticket for their kid and the airline saying they won't take it.

Topic: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: aerdingus
Posted 2013-02-07 14:23:55 and read 20629 times.

Could it possibly be from a safety standpoint? The emergency slides etc?

Just a thought.

Topic: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: doug_Or
Posted 2013-02-07 14:43:50 and read 20456 times.

Quoting reffado (Reply 10):
However, I do understand what you said, and seeing it that way, it does make sense. But, at least here, I can't see someone showing up with say, $5000 for an F ticket for their kid and the airline saying they won't take it.

They'll just have to slum it in J.

Topic: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: sandyb123
Posted 2013-02-07 14:44:46 and read 20456 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 5):
Can I have a "no obnoxious drunks allowed" section on my flights? I have many more problems with poorly behaved adults than with poorly behaved children.

Agreed. I have seen to many times drunk J & F pax who behave threateningly and obnoxiously to the point they have the attention of the full cabin.

Quoting reffado (Reply 10):
The problem as I see it is the parents not controlling their children

Agreed also. My 7 year old daughter is travelling with her mother in F on Monday and understands that she has to behave well and be considerate of other pax.

BTW she's the same on U2 etc there seems to be an implication that we're talking premium cabins here.

I have seen families who seem to think that airplanes are extensions of the soft-play and the crew are there to entertain them whilst they sit back and relax. It really annoys me as a parent.

Sandyb123

Topic: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-07 14:47:42 and read 20416 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 5):
Can I have a "no obnoxious drunks allowed" section on my flights? I have many more problems with poorly behaved adults than with poorly behaved children.

Totally agree. I've been on far more flights where adults were much more annoying than children or infants.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: Schweigend
Posted 2013-02-07 15:53:42 and read 20159 times.

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
I heard some airlines have a no kid policy in their upper decks on A380 and 747s.which airlines are doing this?
Where do they draw the line on age? Whats the reasoning behind this?

I've just checked the SQ and LH websites for information about traveling in premium classes with children -- no posted prohibition that I could find. Yet there is a sense among fliers, expressed in the posts above, that children below a certain age -- say, six or eight -- should not be in J or F, for the comfort of the adults in those cabins.

It really comes down to good parenting -- if your whelp is poorly behaved, fly coach, or drive. Societal or peer pressure can enforce this.

But you specified the "upper decks", not upper classes. During an evacuation situation, would children be more at risk for injury by using the upper deck slides than the lower deck ones? I tend to think not, as kids, with their flexible bodies and "this is fun!" attitude, would probably do better on the higher slides than grown-ups. Infants, however, could pop out of their parents' arms or otherwise encumber the evacuation...

These issues surely were investigated during aircraft certification, and I'm not aware of any official regulatory prohibition of children upstairs.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-02-07 16:58:03 and read 19902 times.

Quoting Schweigend (Reply 15):
It really comes down to good parenting -- if your whelp is poorly behaved, fly coach, or drive. Societal or peer pressure can enforce this.

Anybody who thinks that a child's behavior is 100 percent correlated to parenting quality needs to spend more time with children. Good parents can get their children to behave more often than bad parents can, but even the best-raised children have occasional bad days (and, conversely, even children with the worst parents sometimes behave).

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2013-02-07 17:49:19 and read 19731 times.

Quoting reffado (Reply 8):
What if I have a kid and want to fly F?

Fly a different airline or start your own.

Kudos to this policy, I think all airlines should have a screaming kid section. Nothing aggravates me more than listening to a screaming kid for hours

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: nrt1011
Posted 2013-02-07 18:19:33 and read 19627 times.

Stick them all in the back row next to the toilets, the kids that is

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: kann123air
Posted 2013-02-07 19:33:13 and read 19437 times.

Quoting bond007 (Reply 9):
Often those who complain about their 'rights', forget about the 'rights' of all the others

Perfect way to say it!!

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: FlyingSicilian
Posted 2013-02-07 19:43:57 and read 19382 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 5):
Can I have a "no obnoxious drunks allowed" section on my flights? I have many more problems with poorly behaved adults than with poorly behaved children.

Agreed. I've had to endure chatty people in the aisles and drunkards blathering loudly much more than kids

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: qantasguy
Posted 2013-02-08 01:48:48 and read 18558 times.

This has come up several times before. I agree with the "Kid Free" section. So many times, especially on flights in and out of Orlando, Orange County and even SLC -there have been so many disruptive children that it is impossible to relax, concentrate or sleep. Perhaps, instead of positioning children all throughout the cabin, the last few rows could be reserved for "Families". Often other families are "Immune" to the squeals, screams and other VERY annoying sounds and behaviors of other children and are not bothered in the least......as for me - there are few things I hate more than being disturbed by a high pitched, blood curdling screech in the middle of a flight while hurtling 600mph in a tube you can't escape from. You have to sit there and bare it and, while your ears bleed, and head splits wide open you wonder why someone else who has executive authority over an airline hasn't figured out that "Adult Flights" would really be quite profitable. I'd pay a higher price for guaranteed peace. In my line of work, it is often the only time I get to actually sleep and I get super annoyed when it's all through the cabin. There is often a chain reaction from one child to another, to another. You can see it coming. Southwest has the right idea, board the children early, or better still in the first 15....then we can avoid them. Better still, they should board them and advise them the back, or front 3 rows are reserved for them and to all sit there. That puts maximum distance between them and the majority of us who wish to be far, far away. It is not unreasonable to want this. When you are at a fine restaurant, and want to enjoy a quiet evening - this is to be expected, a commercial flight should be no different - especially if it is marketed this way. I say bring on the noise ordinance.....

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: shankly
Posted 2013-02-08 03:27:26 and read 17578 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 5):
Can I have a "no obnoxious drunks allowed" section on my flights


Agree. My last two flights with BA (LHR-CPT-LHR) were delayed whilst adults were removed for being drunk and aggressive to staff...on my LHR-CPT flight it was a pax from 1st who was ejected by a couple of chaps in yellow jackets and on the return a couple of lads from the rear who had apparently turned out have had a too few many Castles

The Captain advised us on the LHR-CPT flight "that one of our passengers has decided not to travel with us tonight....."!

The crew were very amused and chatted about how this chap had literally thrown his toys out of the pram (or probably his BA pyjamas) from the moment he had stepped on. My 7 year old son sat quietly and contently for 12 hours both ways

I can appreciate the market for a quiet cabin, but how far down the line does one go within such a cabin....no groups of lads or lasses, separate business passengers so we don't get to hear how great they are, no alcohol served, certainly no irritating lap top activity, no "chatty" people?

If some muppets are prepared to pay an extra few quid to sit in front of a curtain in a cabin environment which is generally 80dB, then good luck to the airlines

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: Jalap
Posted 2013-02-08 04:51:23 and read 16593 times.

Quoting bond007 (Reply 8):
I'm sure many F fare paying pax would be very upset (as I would be), having paid a very high premium, only to end up next to a screaming 2 year old for the whole flight.

When you say "if they're paying...", you must remember the other pax without children who are also paying. Often those who complain about their 'rights', forget about the 'rights' of all the others

I'm sure economy pax would also be upset to end up close to a screaming 2 year old for the whole flight. And 1 kid can annoy far more people in economy than in first. But they didn't pay the premium, does that mean they don't have those 'rights'?

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: scbriml
Posted 2013-02-08 05:15:19 and read 16313 times.

Quoting bond007 (Reply 8):
you must remember the other pax without children who are also paying. Often those who complain about their 'rights', forget about the 'rights' of all the others

Where in the terms and conditions of your ticket does it say you have the right to experience a child-free flight?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 16):
Fly a different airline or start your own.

Mature.

Quoting kann123air (Reply 18):
Perfect way to say it!!

Kids are part of life. Infants scream because it the only way they can express their discomfort at being in a noisy, alien environment with earache. Do try to get over it.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: Dufo
Posted 2013-02-08 05:26:18 and read 16148 times.

What is the point of travelling with infants anyway?
I understand if you're moving to live somewhere but to take them on a visit or vacation when they're that young? Couldn't you give them to relatives for those few days?

I have seen to many 'do not give a crap' attitude of parents who did nothing to comfort the disturbed child.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2013-02-08 05:29:09 and read 16776 times.

What's all this talk of "rights"?

The only right that you have is the reasonable expectation to be carried from point A to point B as ticketed. Nowhere is there any mention of being carried in absolute silence. If the travelling public wanted to bear the cost of cabins with sound-proof partitioning so that their ears are spared the sound of infants crying, I am sure the airlines would be happy to accommodate them. But as passengers show that the most important thing is the cheapness of the ticket, the airlines are left with accommodating passengers with infants wherever seats are available. And these will be dispersed throughout the cabin, especially since bassinets are typically affixed to bulkheads.

Contracts/ Conditions of Carriage rightly impose responsibilities on adults, including observing directions from crew and behaviour. Kicking rowdy drunks off the flight is appropriate. I would rather fly with an infant screaming than I would with Gerald D urinating on the cabin floor because he thinks he's entitled to.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: bond007
Posted 2013-02-08 05:33:39 and read 16671 times.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 23):
Where in the terms and conditions of your ticket does it say you have the right to experience a child-free flight?

The same place where it says children have a right to sit in anywhere on the aircraft.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 23):
Kids are part of life. Infants scream because it the only way they can express their discomfort at being in a noisy, alien environment with earache. Do try to get over it.

Nobody here disagrees with that, but there is nothing to 'get over'. Most folks, including yourself probably, would rather not sit next to a screaming child for an extended time....especially if you paid a premium for a more comfortable environment.

Quoting Jalap (Reply 22):
I'm sure economy pax would also be upset to end up close to a screaming 2 year old for the whole flight. And 1 kid can annoy far more people in economy than in first. But they didn't pay the premium, does that mean they don't have those 'rights'?

Well, of course there are none of these 'rights', hence the reason I put it in quotes. That's exactly my point - yes, a screaming child disturbs everyone. I fail to understand why, if you ARE going to restrict where children can sit, it would not be where pax pay a premium for a more comfortable, restful flight ... after all, that's how F is marketed.


Jimbo

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: aerdingus
Posted 2013-02-08 05:34:58 and read 16821 times.

Quoting Jalap (Reply 22):
I'm sure economy pax would also be upset to end up close to a screaming 2 year old for the whole flight. And 1 kid can annoy far more people in economy than in first. But they didn't pay the premium, does that mean they don't have those 'rights'?

You said it pal! Everyone had rights, no matter what cabin they´re travelling in. Of course those in F & J have more entitlements, but that´s stuff built into the ticket. No one deserves to have a screaming kid stuck beside them, & yes usually it´s because kids are kids, & babies especially don´t understand what´s happening. Spoiled brats are another story though (maybe put those ones in F)

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: fraspotter
Posted 2013-02-08 05:56:12 and read 16555 times.

Quoting Dufo (Reply 24):
What is the point of travelling with infants anyway?
I understand if you're moving to live somewhere but to take them on a visit or vacation when they're that young? Couldn't you give them to relatives for those few days?

Children are not pets...  

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-02-08 06:11:29 and read 16310 times.

Quoting bond007 (Reply 26):
Most folks, including yourself probably, would rather not sit next to a screaming child for an extended time....especially if you paid a premium for a more comfortable environment.

Where I'm struggling is with the broad brush with which this policy paints children (as opposed to disruptive children). I've had some lovely flights next to children, including an 18 month old on CDG-ATL a few years back who behaved like a dream the whole way.

I'd rather sit next to the average child than to the average drunk.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: bond007
Posted 2013-02-08 06:18:31 and read 16190 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 29):
I'd rather sit next to the average child than to the average drunk.

Agreed, but the drunk should never have been allowed to board .... but that would be a whole thread by itself!

Unfortunately the best of children, wonderfully behaved, with great parents, can still scream if you sit them on a plane for a number of hours. That's what children do.

Jimbo

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-02-08 06:30:22 and read 16003 times.

Quoting aerdingus (Reply 10):
Could it possibly be from a safety standpoint? The emergency slides etc?

Just a thought.

No, they still have to have the safety slides on the main deck.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 5):

Can I have a "no obnoxious drunks allowed" section on my flights? I have many more problems with poorly behaved adults than with poorly behaved children.

I have seen that before, the drunk thing in F, and the Captain came and escorted the passenger to the F/A's seats in the back of the plane with the help of a few of us. He was there for the duration of the flight in restraints until we landed and the authorities took him away. By the time we had landed, he had messed himself and had passed out.

Quoting reffado (Reply 7):

While it makes sense, it may cause trouble. I agree that screaming infants are far from being a delight, but banning paying passengers from traveling with their kids in forward cabins seems a bit too much. What if I have a kid and want to fly F? I can't? That's just stupid. I say that because my first flight was when I was 2 - in the F cabin on the upper deck of an RG 747. My parents received no complaints. Because in Y there was not enough space and the whole family would be cramped, the wider seats were a need. I mean, if passengers want to upgrade, sure, it's a reason to deny them, but if they're paying, I can't see the logic.

You don't pay the money for a comfortable nights sleep, but to have a quiet atmosphere for working and preparing for meetings that you are travelling for. I don't find sleeping on an aircraft to be a great experience at any time. I always get stiff and really don't find it that comfortable. Yes, I do nap when I am tired, but really? Sleep? I don't see why. If you are that tired maybe the children are not going to bother you any ways. 99% of the time there are not going to be children in the premium cabins and you won't have to worry. Who would travel with children in F anyway?

Quoting qantasguy (Reply 20):


This has come up several times before. I agree with the "Kid Free" section. So many times, especially on flights in and out of Orlando, Orange County and even SLC -there have been so many disruptive children that it is impossible to relax, concentrate or sleep.

Well, in case you don't realize, those destinations have an attraction called Disney and a lot of families like to go there.

Quoting Jalap (Reply 22):
I'm sure economy pax would also be upset to end up close to a screaming 2 year old for the whole flight. And 1 kid can annoy far more people in economy than in first. But they didn't pay the premium, does that mean they don't have those 'rights'?

Yes, because I can work in the tight constraints of Y, it is the people around me that are annoying and the reason I prefer to travel in J or F or what ever the top class is in the aircraft when I am on business. I also don't enjoy talking with the new parents or grandparents or the lowest common denominator of society in the seat beside me. I avoid traveling on weekends, and holidays to avoid the highest traveled periods and that gives you fewer chances of running into those type of people.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: discovery1
Posted 2013-02-08 06:57:06 and read 15618 times.

Quoting Jalap (Reply 22):

I'm sure economy pax would also be upset to end up close to a screaming 2 year old for the whole flight. And 1 kid can annoy far more people in economy than in first. But they didn't pay the premium, does that mean they don't have those 'rights'?

The best idea I've heard is to create a special area for pax with young children, probably toward the back, and then have the pax sitting near said area getting a discount with the knowledge that they will be near a bunch of youth. Only problem is parents who's kids are actually silent get kinda screwed.

Also, it's not a good idea to bring someone too young to pop their ears on a plane. You are putting both the child and the other pax in an extremely uncomfortable position.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: rufusisgod
Posted 2013-02-08 07:28:42 and read 15180 times.

It's due to the slide height off the ground not being suitable for children under 12. More chance of them being injured.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: enginebird
Posted 2013-02-08 07:29:28 and read 15197 times.

Quoting discovery1 (Reply 32):
Also, it's not a good idea to bring someone too young to pop their ears on a plane. You are putting both the child and the other pax in an extremely uncomfortable position.

It is also not a good idea to express an opinion, if you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Our son had more than 30 legs under his belt when he turned 2, including at least 4 intercontinental trips. Believe it or not, not a single cry or squeal from him on any of these flights. -- Flying is a lot more problematic now that he is old enough to move around and express his wish to move around. I have to make sure now the plane has decent IFE, which usually solves all problems for flights up to 12 hours.

Seems to be clearly observable in the above posts that there are two groups who do not seem to understand each other: Parents and those poor individuals who thought that things like success in their jobs could be anywhere nearly as rewarding as having children of themselves...

I am going to fly on the upper deck of a BA B744 next week and again three weeks from now and will no doubt enjoy the peace and quiet you usually get up there. The decision to reserve a seat upstairs, however, had much more to do with the overall lower noise level and the smaller total number of seats "upstairs" than with the likely absence of children.

Let me say to those guys who want to ban children from planes: You were not born 20 years old...

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: neutrino
Posted 2013-02-08 07:32:33 and read 15135 times.

Quoting bond007 (Reply 30):
Agreed, but the drunk should never have been allowed to board ....


What if a sober pax board and turned into a drunk somewhere in the midst of a long flight?
Strap him onto a parachute and forcibly eject him in midair?   

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: georgiaame
Posted 2013-02-08 07:37:47 and read 15052 times.

Quoting goldenargosy (Reply 4):
I will go out of my way to fly with them
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 5):
Can I have a "no obnoxious drunks allowed" section on my flights?

I'll take the drunk over the out of control kid any day. But that said, I'll pay a premium to avoid either. Many has been the time Delta has graced me with a screaming child up in first. Sorry, no excuse for paying premium fares to avoid the shrieking, and getting stuck with it. This from a father of 2, and a well behaved puppy.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: fanofjets
Posted 2013-02-08 07:57:26 and read 14754 times.

OK, I am in the minority here. Then, again, I am used to having an opinion that differs from that of the manority. So, I'll just state my case; people are free to agree or disagree. (After all, that's why they call this space a forum.)

Here goes.... I happen to love children. They bring smiles to my face. Yes, loud crying does bother me, as do many other loud noises. The crying, however, is usually during take-off and landing, when the pressurization system is trying to do its thing. Children's ear canals, being not fully developed, are much more sensitive than those of adults. They cannot help it. Chewing gum is an age-old remedy. I know airlines are cutting back on everything, from meals to toilet paper. Spending the money on having extra chewing gum aboard would be a wise investment; some parents forget this essential ingredient, something that gets lost in the gazillion other things parents need to pack for traveling children. (I even lost a very expensive SLR camera in the process of getting a diaper bag ready.)

There was a time, long ago and far away, back in the days when we flew aboard those new-fangled contraptions called Jet Clippers, Star Stream Jets, and Astrojets. I treasured my little pilots wings! "The Flight of Man," - probably stolen from Alberto "Man flies!" Santos-Dumont. Flight attendents would be available to offer comfort to young travelers. Swissair (I remember them well!) used to have playing cards and Matchbox cars (which now sell for a lot of money on eBay, under the heading of "antique and classic toys." Sorry, but those TV screens nowadays simply act as sedatives with some very nasty withdrawal effects when those electronic wonders are shut down. (Unfortunately, we cannot do anything about long security lines and huge, impersonal mega hubs and missed connections, but the wonder of flight remains once we are safely cacooned in that aluminium tube.)

It is sad that most adults simply do not want to have anything to do with childhood. Furthermore, too many of us have lost that childhood sense of wonder and excitement of discovery. (That's why I am such a fan of the beautiful in-flight cabin window views here on A.net.) Nine out of ten of my last flights have been at capacity. I do not recall at any time being bothered by "screaming" children. I saw beautiful, smiling faces. Personally, I would not want to fly on an airplane without them. As someone with very limited funds, I always travel "cattle class"; my only complaint about is the lack of space. And, yes, I did have to put up with some insufferable screaming and rudeness. Only these behaviors came from adults.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: CalebWilliams
Posted 2013-02-08 08:19:45 and read 14456 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 15):
Quoting Schweigend (Reply 15):
It really comes down to good parenting -- if your whelp is poorly behaved, fly coach, or drive. Societal or peer pressure can enforce this.

Anybody who thinks that a child's behavior is 100 percent correlated to parenting quality needs to spend more time with children. Good parents can get their children to behave more often than bad parents can, but even the best-raised children have occasional bad days (and, conversely, even children with the worst parents sometimes behave).

Clearly true. I had great parents, but sometimes when I was younger, it would have been quite bad to be with me on a plane on some days (5 through 12ish years old probably).

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2013-02-08 08:27:39 and read 14314 times.

Quoting enginebird (Reply 34):
Let me say to those guys who want to ban children from planes: You were not born 20 years old...

Who is talking about banning children from planes? We are talking about a child-free section. I would gladly pay more to sit in such a section, although extending the ban to 12 is too high. The two behaviors that you can't escape are screaming and seat-kicking, and those are typically not done by kids older than 5 or 6.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: enginebird
Posted 2013-02-08 08:52:50 and read 13950 times.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 40):
Who is talking about banning children from planes? We are talking about a child-free section.

If you were not talking about banning kids from planes, then you were not among the intended addressees of my comment. Some people above, however, suggest that parents should not fly with young children at all and -- whenever the topic comes up here on a-net -- some want to ban kids from planes altogether. Nonsense.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: greg3322
Posted 2013-02-08 09:01:20 and read 13837 times.

So, you basically want kids to sit in "the back of the bus?" I thought we got over that kind of thinking in the U.S. years ago. Guess not.

Quoting qantasguy (Reply 20):
This has come up several times before. I agree with the "Kid Free" section. So many times, especially on flights in and out of Orlando, Orange County and even SLC -there have been so many disruptive children that it is impossible to relax, concentrate or sleep. Perhaps, instead of positioning children all throughout the cabin, the last few rows could be reserved for "Families". Often other families are "Immune" to the squeals, screams and other VERY annoying sounds and behaviors of other children and are not bothered in the least......as for me - there are few things I hate more than being disturbed by a high pitched, blood curdling screech in the middle of a flight while hurtling 600mph in a tube you can't escape from. You have to sit there and bare it and, while your ears bleed, and head splits wide open you wonder why someone else who has executive authority over an airline hasn't figured out that "Adult Flights" would really be quite profitable. I'd pay a higher price for guaranteed peace. In my line of work, it is often the only time I get to actually sleep and I get super annoyed when it's all through the cabin. There is often a chain reaction from one child to another, to another. You can see it coming. Southwest has the right idea, board the children early, or better still in the first 15....then we can avoid them. Better still, they should board them and advise them the back, or front 3 rows are reserved for them and to all sit there. That puts maximum distance between them and the majority of us who wish to be far, far away. It is not unreasonable to want this. When you are at a fine restaurant, and want to enjoy a quiet evening - this is to be expected, a commercial flight should be no different - especially if it is marketed this way. I say bring on the noise ordinance.....

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-02-08 09:03:47 and read 13842 times.

Children should be banned completely! All adult travelers were *angels* when they were kids and never caused any problems whatsoever  And they're always a dream to deal with as adults. I always find these "ban children" threads a reflection of the nastier element of human nature. The only problems I've ever had with fellow travelers have been with adults being abusive to each other, not a fussy child whose parents are probably dying of embarassment and wanting to quiet the child a thousand times more than fellow passengers.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2013-02-08 09:23:14 and read 13527 times.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 23):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 16):
Fly a different airline or start your own.

Mature.

I'm for real, I don't see why people feel entitled to twist businesses to do what they want. If he wants a kid in F, fly a different airline. If I want to fly in F without kids, I'm restricted to these airlines

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: FlyingSicilian
Posted 2013-02-08 09:24:52 and read 13528 times.

Quoting greg3322 (Reply 44):
So, you basically want kids to sit in "the back of the bus?" I thought we got over that kind of thinking in the U.S. years ago. Guess not.

No, we should ban the handicapped too, and maybe have a homosexual free section, and maybe a bathed and unbathed section. We could board and sit by race or gender too. The Elite could wear little arm badges showing they have status and are not to be directly addressed unless by staff.


Godwin be damned. 

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: falstaff
Posted 2013-02-08 09:43:58 and read 13296 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 5):
I have many more problems with poorly behaved adults than with poorly behaved children.

Same here.

Quoting reffado (Reply 7):
if I have a kid and want to fly F? I can't? That's just stupid. I say that because my first flight was when I was 2 - in the F cabin on the upper deck of an RG 747. My parents received no complaints.

I flew F several times on TW L1011s as a child and I sat in my seat and colored. I remember FAs being friendly and even doing card and magic tricks. It was a great time. I don't recall mom and dad ever getting a complaint.

Quoting bond007 (Reply 8):
having paid a very high premium, only to end up next to a screaming 2 year old for the whole flight.

I keep hearing about these people paying a premium, but every single person I know who flies in F or J are either on a company paid flight, using FF miles, or upgrading due to status.

Quoting bond007 (Reply 8):
Often those who complain about their 'rights', forget about the 'rights' of all the others

You got it. They got theirs. Of course there are a lot of people who think those with more money have more "rights", but they don't. We all put our pants on the same way.

Quoting Jalap (Reply 22):
I'm sure economy pax would also be upset to end up close to a screaming 2 year old for the whole flight. And 1 kid can annoy far more people in economy than in first. But they didn't pay the premium, does that mean they don't have those 'rights'?

According to some people here, us poor slobs in Y don't matter.

Quoting Dufo (Reply 24):
I understand if you're moving to live somewhere but to take them on a visit or vacation when they're that young? Couldn't you give them to relatives for those few days?
Quoting fraspotter (Reply 28):
Children are not pets...

Growing up 1200 miles away from my grandparents (on both sides) my parents and I took many trips to visit their parents. Mom and dad weren't going to dump me off and some boarding kennel, like a dog, and their were no family members to leave me with.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 29):
I've had some lovely flights next to children, including an 18 month old on CDG-ATL a few years back who behaved like a dream the whole way.

Me too. A couple stand out too: In 2009 I flew AA ORD-FRA (on a 763) and just ahead of me was an infant, who was sleeping in a little bed attached to the bulkhead. I was thinking "oh this will suck". The infant was so quite I forgot it was even on the flight until I saw the family carrying her off the plane. The cute little child sure was getting a lot of attention from the FAs too.

In 2008 I flew NW DTW-AMS (on a 744) and I was seated next to two small Dutch children. They were very nice children and I let them plug their headphones into my DVD player and watched a couple of movies. I don't know if they even could understand the English movie, but they sure were quite. The kids also colored in their coloring books.

My mom has been a preschool teacher for any years and works very well with young children. When she travels she carries a coloring book and a big box of Crayolas. Not only does mom like to color, but she will hand them out to nearby kids if she see they have nothing to do. Nobody's parent has ever complained and they usually thank mom for keeping their kids quite. A couple of years ago Mom, Dad, and I took VIA Rail Windsor-Toronto-Montreal-Quebec and return. On one of the legs there were a couple of small children traveling with their mom were getting tired of their DVDs and started to get noisy. My mom walked over the mother and asked if anyone wanted to color. The kids were all excited and my mom took out her coloring book and crayons, and gave it to the kids. They colored for two hours. The mother thanked my mom, as did the conductor and a few other nearby passengers.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 29):
I'd rather sit next to the average child than to the average drunk.

When I was a child was seated next to a drunk on Republic (RC) LAS-DEN DC-9. The drunk puked on me, that was before we even got off the ground.

Quoting bond007 (Reply 30):
Agreed, but the drunk should never have been allowed to board

Sometimes you don't know their drunk. I am known to be a drinker and can really pound them and still look and talk good. I have passed out a few times and had the FA wake me up when I got to my destination. Of course I'm not bothering anyone, just sleeping.

Quoting georgiaame (Reply 36):
I'll take the drunk over the out of control kid any day. But that said, I'll pay a premium to avoid either

I would pay a premium to sit in a drunks only section. That would be so cool. Back when WN had 732s some of them had club seating. One trip, DTW-STL, really sticks in my mind. There were six of us, facing each other, and we were all drinking. We boozed it up the entire flight and then drank more at STL when we arrived. It was the drunk section for sure. I never had that much fun with six strangers before.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: richierich
Posted 2013-02-08 09:51:36 and read 13163 times.

Quoting Dufo (Reply 24):
What is the point of travelling with infants anyway?
I understand if you're moving to live somewhere but to take them on a visit or vacation when they're that young? Couldn't you give them to relatives for those few days?

Seriously? That has to be one of the most naive and stupid comments I have read in quite a long time.

Quoting Dufo (Reply 24):
I have seen to many 'do not give a crap' attitude of parents who did nothing to comfort the disturbed child.

This is a different problem entirely. Unfortunately it is a fact of life, not all parents are the same and not all infants are the same. Buy some noise cancelling headsets and deal with it.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2013-02-08 09:56:27 and read 13051 times.

Quoting richierich (Reply 50):
Buy some noise cancelling headsets and deal with it.

If only it were that simple. Noise cancelling headsets, by drowning out the background noise, actually make a screaming infant sound louder.

Yes, infants scream, and there is not much that can be done about it. But trying to pretend it's not an awful experience is just dumb. Put the screaming infants in one cabin, and allow people to pay extra to sit in the other cabin. This would work especially well where the "cabins" are separate decks on an A380.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: boeing773ER
Posted 2013-02-08 10:16:38 and read 12810 times.

I could really make an argument for both sides here, I feel there should be a "child-free" zone on most longhaul. I could really see the market for that on some large routes where competition is stiff. It would really give an edge for one carrier over an other, especially since this is a free or low-cost way to have that advantage.

If you don't like that carrier, then don't fly them. By buying a ticket with any carrier you are accepting their terms of service . Today there are many options to fly on. It was your choice to have children, or to bring them along. Not the person next to you.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-02-08 11:45:51 and read 11740 times.

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 49):
If you don't like that carrier, then don't fly them. By buying a ticket with any carrier you are accepting their terms of service . Today there are many options to fly on. It was your choice to have children, or to bring them along. Not the person next to you.

This is not practical as most places are have only one airline flying to a particular destination. You may have to spend 1000's of dollars to fly a different carrier. Now I am in favour of not putting children in F but like I have stated before I rarely see any children in F and most F seats are very private anyways.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-02-08 11:51:24 and read 11693 times.

Tell me which airlines ban kids. I earn FF miles to fly them on vacation. Knowing they're banned tells me which airlines aren't worth acquiring FF miles upon.

I've had problems with drunks on flights as a passenger to often to mention the details.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 48):
Yes, infants scream, and there is not much that can be done about it.

Its not that bad. And there are tricks. Kids scream because they are in pain. Both of my daughters had bad gas as infants. (Most kids do... that milk diet would give us all issues). Clogged ears also 'run in the family.' Because of this, I know tricks I have shared with parents that stop the screaming. But even if it doesn't... a screaming kid really isn't that bad (and I have better than average hearing).

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: scbriml
Posted 2013-02-08 11:53:01 and read 11596 times.

Quoting bond007 (Reply 26):
The same place where it says children have a right to sit in anywhere on the aircraft.

Unless the airline specifically has a no kids in first policy, then my kids will sit wherever I pay for them to sit. You have a choice.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 44):
I don't see why people feel entitled to twist businesses to do what they want.

Maybe because they're the paying customer? I've yet to find an airline that has had a second thought about accepting my money for four first class tickets.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 44):
If I want to fly in F without kids, I'm restricted to these airlines

Which airlines have no kids in first policy? The topic of the thread is airlines that don't allow young kids on the upper-deck of A380s and 747s. But anyway, enjoy your limited choice.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: WildcatYXU
Posted 2013-02-08 12:18:21 and read 11129 times.

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 45):
and maybe a bathed and unbathed section.




That would make more sense than a childfree section.

Quoting richierich (Reply 47):
Quoting Dufo (Reply 24):
What is the point of travelling with infants anyway?
I understand if you're moving to live somewhere but to take them on a visit or vacation when they're that young? Couldn't you give them to relatives for those few days?

Seriously? That has to be one of the most naive and stupid comments I have read in quite a long time.



Errr, no. It's just a different way of life. Calling people stupid because of their different habits is just, you said that, stupid.

The child/scream topic shows up under different guise at least twice each year. Every time it shows up it brings a lot of posts showing an overdeveloped sense of entitlement and the "I paid for it, I'm too cool to interact with others, especially with children" attitude. Well, people, if you hate others, Grumman will be more than happy to solve your problem.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: toobz
Posted 2013-02-08 12:38:42 and read 10880 times.

It would never happen in the States. It would be discrimanation. Notice what regions these airlines that are doing this are from. I for one would love a kid free zone. Nothing wrong with kids but I find myself more annoyed by a screaming kid than most anything else on a flight. It's stressful enough flying nowadays. Nobody is allying about banning kids from aircraft. Why can't we have a "Mc Playland" area on a plane?

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-08 16:06:46 and read 10346 times.

Quoting toobz (Reply 54):
t would never happen in the States. It would be discrimanation.

Many cruise ships and restaurants ban children below a certain age. Why should airlines be treated differently?

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2013-02-08 16:26:23 and read 10303 times.

Hearing screaming kids can be unpleasant but they and their parents have as much right to travel as any other person. It is a shame that people are so intolerant and selfish.

All this "put the kids in one cabin". Exactly how may rows on each aircraft should be dedicated to passengers travelling with infants or children? Three, five, ten, twenty? It isn't like regional business in Europe where you can simply move a curtain divider according to how many J seats are sold. You can't fix a bassinet to movable curtains. What happens if there are more passengers with infants or children who wish to travel than there are rows available? Do you say that they can't travel? Do you split up the parents and children so that only infants and children sit in those rows?

How do you ensure that the noise will stay in its allocated part of the cabin? Sound-proof partitions? Are you happy to accept the possibility of a lower seat pitch as more partitions take up space? Although double-decked aircraft have a partial solution it will be quite some time before they become standard on the majority of routes. Are you prepared to pay extra so that the airlines can afford to install the partitions on existing aircraft or make up the loss if seats in the "kiddy ghetto" remain unsold?

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: bond007
Posted 2013-02-08 17:00:50 and read 10233 times.

Quoting fanofjets (Reply 38):
It is sad that most adults simply do not want to have anything to do with childhood.
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 43):
always find these "ban children" threads a reflection of the nastier element of human nature
Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 45):
No, we should ban the handicapped too, and maybe have a homosexual free section, and maybe a bathed and unbathed section. We could board and sit by race or gender too. The Elite could wear little arm badges showing they have status and are not to be directly addressed unless by staff.
Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 53):
Well, people, if you hate others,

Wow, some of us don't like screaming kids .... in fact probably most of us, and I have 2 of them, and now we're into gays, hate, banning children, and worse ....

Is it impossible to have a normal discussion about a topic without a few folks taking it completely out of context? really?

I guess I know my answer!

I love kids as much as anyone here .... but if I pay $2000 or more for a first class seat, where I'm promised a more comfortable, pleasant ride - I'd rather not have a screaming child next to me.... It would be tough to believe ANYONE would!

jimbo

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: railker
Posted 2013-02-08 17:38:15 and read 10167 times.

I think WestJet was onto something with last years' April Fools video ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4SkoJy3D0M

[Edited 2013-02-08 17:38:40]

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: greg3322
Posted 2013-02-08 23:01:44 and read 9899 times.

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 45):
and maybe a bathed and unbathed section

I would support that one!

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: Mir
Posted 2013-02-08 23:24:56 and read 9861 times.

Quoting qantasguy (Reply 20):
You have to sit there and bare it and, while your ears bleed, and head splits wide open you wonder why someone else who has executive authority over an airline hasn't figured out that "Adult Flights" would really be quite profitable. I'd pay a higher price for guaranteed peace.

Except that a flight with no children is not guaranteed peace. Adults are perfectly capable of causing just as much disruption as a child.

Quoting qantasguy (Reply 20):
It is not unreasonable to want this. When you are at a fine restaurant, and want to enjoy a quiet evening - this is to be expected, a commercial flight should be no different

The economy cabin of a commercial flight is not comparable to a fine restaurant. I'm fine with keeping children under 6 or so from the premium cabins (which would be comparable), but beyond that people just need to suck it up and deal with it.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 55):
Many cruise ships and restaurants ban children below a certain age. Why should airlines be treated differently?

Because cruise ships and restaurants are destinations in and of themselves. An airplane is simply a mode of transport, nothing more.

-Mir

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: deepunderground
Posted 2013-02-08 23:45:48 and read 9850 times.

SQ certainly don't ban kids upstairs on A380.

http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/168889_10101198933883782_918578141_n.jpg

Living overseas, I constantly drag my little ones all over Asia in J (and Y sometimes too). Typically though the baby is in a bassinet seat and not her own paid seat. That one was not the typical situation LOL. I have never seen the gates agents so confused as to a baby in a paid J seat!

The four year old does fine and just watches IFE the whole time. They baby is usually fine, but if she gets crazy one of us usually takes a trip to the lavatory to try and keep the sound down.

We try to be respectful and control the kids, and when it fails (kids are not always controllable), we try to minimize the impact.



Now you want torture? Try an armored bus with the windows covered up by ballistic plates and a screaming child. 

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-02-09 00:07:10 and read 9791 times.

Quoting Dufo (Reply 24):

Okay, so I see you don't deal with children on a regular basis. 75% of children who fly are angels from my experience. Also, do you know how much work it would be to drive a long distance with a child or children (at least children in this age range)? It is a hard and long task. Most people do not treat their children like pets, thankfully.


And to everybody who is saying that children should be banned, sat in the back, etc..... There are much larger problems in this world than somebody eho had the priveledge to fly in the first place being seated next to a noisy child. People are homeless, poor, dealing with physical and psycological issues, and people are worried about listening to a child's noises for a few hours.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: cha747
Posted 2013-02-09 05:39:39 and read 9490 times.

Hmmmm... so screaming kids bother you in J or F?

I think if you can afford to be in J or F, you can afford noise canceling headphones.

My kids have flown F many times (probably 20 segments each) in their short 4 and 6 year old lives.

Only 1 comment from somebody on a flight from DCA-LGA on the US shuttle when my oldest one was 2. The man said, "your little boy needs to get used to flying." I shut him up when I told him that my son was Silver Preferred. The man looked at my wife with astonishment and she nodded her head in agreement.

My stance is if you want to avoid a nuisance on board, invest in appropriate headphones or drive. I'm bringing my kid.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: toobz
Posted 2013-02-09 06:01:46 and read 9441 times.

Lol nobody is saying you can't! We are just saying its nice to have an option. Just because you chose to have kids doesn't mean everybody needs to love them. Take them where ever you want.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-02-09 08:04:35 and read 9322 times.

Quoting cha747 (Reply 62):
I think if you can afford to be in J or F, you can afford noise canceling headphones.

As noted above, noise canceling headphones actually enhance the sound of a baby crying! What one needs is a baby/drunk canceling headphone.

Quoting cha747 (Reply 62):
The man said, "your little boy needs to get used to flying."

It sounded more that he was being friendly, and, 99% of the time, his suggestion would be correct, the more babies fly, the more relaxed they (and their parents) become.

Some airlines not allowing children below a certain age in premium cabins is a marketing decision. They know the consequences if they have judged the market incorrectly. And ... should they advertise the fact, or should they do it quietly and discreetly?

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: sweair
Posted 2013-02-09 08:48:33 and read 9244 times.

For trunk routes maybe child flights and childless flights? I too have a hard time sitting next to a screaming child for 10 hours or more, getting my back kicked 50 times, being waken by kids that are at large in the cabin etc

Modern day parents are the worst egos in history, this was not how it used to be, my parents left me at my grandparents when I was a toddler too young to appreciate a trip anyway.

It does not bother me that some egos are hurt, its not my task to love your brats, let me travel in peace, I let you travel in peace.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: enginebird
Posted 2013-02-09 09:23:23 and read 9178 times.

Quoting sweair (Reply 65):
Modern day parents are the worst egos in history, this was not how it used to be, my parents left me at my grandparents when I was a toddler too young to appreciate a trip anyway.

As we all know:
Everything was better in the good old days and parents today just are not what they used to be. Forum rules do not allow my to tell you what you sound like... Just like forum rules would not allow you to call our kids "brats"; this is totally uncalled for.

My ego is not hurt at all by your statement, as I will continue to take my kids and you will have to live with it. Don't like it: Buy yourself a plane or drive. After all, it is not our fault you were such a badly behaved child your parents had to hide you at your grandparents place when traveling...

We usually try to minimize the impact of our kids on fellow travelers, but please do identify yourself when we sit in a cabin with you and we will be happy to make an exception just for you.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: sweair
Posted 2013-02-09 09:51:28 and read 9098 times.

Quoting enginebird (Reply 66):

Maybe you don't live in Sweden? Here people worship children, they can do no wrong and if you dare telling a kid to knock it off you are almost banished from the society. How dare you tell my kid to cool down!?

The root of the problem is behavior, my parents would not tolerate me running around a cabin and disturbing people, not allow me to kick the seat in front of me or to change a diaper in the cabin like I had to endure once.

Sorry to say this, but your hurt feelings wont change my will to pay more to travel in peace. Socialism never appealed to me everyone should be equal, nah I chose not to have kids why should I have to endure them on long haul flights if an Airline is willing to offer this service to me? It really bugs you doesn´t it? Not everyone loves traveling in a daycare centre for 13 hours straight.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: Skydrol
Posted 2013-02-09 09:58:20 and read 9071 times.

Quoting deepunderground (Reply 60):
They baby is usually fine, but if she gets crazy one of us usually takes a trip to the lavatory to try and keep the sound down. We try to be respectful and control the kids, and when it fails (kids are not always controllable), we try to minimize the impact.

And this is the difference between responsible, considerate parents like you, and ignorant idiots.



✈ LD4 ✈

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: enginebird
Posted 2013-02-09 11:56:21 and read 8955 times.

Quoting sweair (Reply 67):
Sorry to say this, but your hurt feelings wont change my will to pay more to travel in peace. [...] I chose not to have kids why should I have to endure them on long haul flights if an Airline is willing to offer this service to me? It really bugs you doesn´t it?

To be honest, it does not bug me at all. Probably not half as much as kids seem to bug you  

The explanation is directly related to this topic: Few airlines restrict where kids can sit on their planes and even fewer airlines advertize such a policy. I have always been able to sit with my kids on any plane and in any class, as long as I was prepared to fork over the cash. If I know an airline has such a policy, it loses my business when I travel with my kids and also when I travel on business without my kids. And since you believe in market forces, as do I, you will not find it hard to believe that airlines are very careful not to annoy potential customers, including parents.

So, no, my feelings are not hurt and I wish you well in finding an airline that will give you what you are looking for. Your frustration, however, tells me that you have not been too sucessful so far... This does not give you the right to use derogatory terms like "brats" to address children!

[Edited 2013-02-09 12:00:23]

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: sweair
Posted 2013-02-09 12:03:02 and read 8923 times.

Quoting enginebird (Reply 69):

No it´s your frustration that shows, air lines catering towards people who would prefer to travel in a quiet cabin. Why is that even outrageous? More choice is always good?! I don't get the anger this creates from parents? Do you?

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: vegas005
Posted 2013-02-09 12:46:59 and read 8893 times.

Just flew LH A380 from Houston and I was in the back of the upper deck business class (great service btw). The flight attendant and I were laughing because we could easily hear two kids screaming and crying on the FIRST deck!! They may not have been on the upper deck but they were easy to hear!!

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-02-09 13:07:01 and read 8811 times.

Quoting bond007 (Reply 56):
I love kids as much as anyone here .... but if I pay $2000 or more for a first class seat, where I'm promised a more comfortable, pleasant ride - I'd rather not have a screaming child next to me.... It would be tough to believe ANYONE would!

The airline has no obligation, nor ability, to screen passengers for annoying habits. It's just a part of life, and adults need to be adults and learn to deal with it. If they can ban children, why stop there? What about that guy hocking up a lung every five minutes? Or the lady who smells like she's rolled over a dead rat? Or the loud snorer? Or the drunk? Or the two guys talking the. whole. flight? It might be nice to ban all of these people, but it's impossible.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: enginebird
Posted 2013-02-09 13:29:32 and read 8732 times.

Quoting sweair (Reply 70):

No it´s your frustration that shows, air lines catering towards people who would prefer to travel in a quiet cabin. Why is that even outrageous? More choice is always good?! I don't get the anger this creates from parents? Do you?

We should not hijack this thread with a private conversation and since -- additionally -- your post does not make any sense to me, I will refrain from addressing any of your "points".

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: bond007
Posted 2013-02-09 13:37:48 and read 8715 times.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 61):
And to everybody who is saying that children should be banned, sat in the back, etc..... There are much larger problems in this world than somebody eho had the priveledge to fly in the first place being seated next to a noisy child. People are homeless, poor, dealing with physical and psycological issues,

OK, then start a new thread about those. This thread is about screaming children.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 72):
The airline has no obligation, nor ability, to screen passengers for annoying habits.

It can quite easily ban children from rows 1-6, just as easy as it can 'ban' exit rows and front seats from non-elite pax ... pretty easy.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 72):
If they can ban children, why stop there? What about that guy hocking up a lung every five minutes? Or the lady who smells like she's rolled over a dead rat? Or the loud snorer? Or the drunk? Or the two guys talking the. whole. flight? It might be nice to ban all of these people, but it's impossible.

Oh, I'd love to ban the whole lot of them .... but since I agree it's probably impossible, we can start with screaming children  


Jimbo

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2013-02-09 13:41:29 and read 8693 times.

I don't have anything about flying among children or babies (at least if they have been minimally educated).

A baby crying or a small kid playing is quite a natural thing IMO... it doesn't bother me. They can even be kinda funny (well that depends on the country... being a male if travelling alone I would never reply to a kid trying to play here in the US for obvious reasons)... I kinda even like it... it reminds me how amazing is that thing that flies and puts together +200 people with so different perspectives, histories and travel plans for 6 or 7 hours.

Certainly more natural and pleasant than the view of a drunk lousy passenger or the typical suit & tie talking on his BB 1 second after the plane has landed (probably the one bothered by small kids), trying to push everyone to leave the plane ASAP. And just from a selfish perspective... little kids (once they have a seat of their own) occupy little space  ... just having a child in the row in front of you means his or her seat will not be reclined to the maximum without even bothering what's happening behind his back as most "adult" passengers do.

Quoting toobz (Reply 53):
It would never happen in the States. It would be discrimanation. Notice what regions these airlines that are doing this are from. I for one would love a kid free zone. Nothing wrong with kids but I find myself more annoyed by a screaming kid than most anything else on a flight. It's stressful enough flying nowadays. Nobody is allying about banning kids from aircraft. Why can't we have a "Mc Playland" area on a plane?

Certainly I can't see this policy ever implemented in an Arab/Gulf airline. Those are extremely family orientated societies and it is not hard to see the whole family (with the maid!) flying in Business or First (unlikely many Western "high-fliers" complaining about kids who are on company-paid tickets).

[Edited 2013-02-09 13:46:32]

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: KiwiRob
Posted 2013-02-09 14:02:32 and read 8651 times.

Quoting bond007 (Reply 8):
I'm sure many F fare paying pax would be very upset (as I would be), having paid a very high premium, only to end up next to a screaming 2 year old for the whole flight.

I think the annoying little yapping mutt in the Louis Vuitton carry case is far worse than any child, it's usually the folks in first and business who carry these daft animals.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: greenjet
Posted 2013-02-09 16:56:44 and read 8465 times.

Quoting g500 (Reply 2):
I don't think business people want a screaming child seating next to them. That noise might music to parents' ears, but its pure torture to mine..

Believe me, it is not music to parents' ears. It's actually a very stressful situation for the parent, particularly on an overnight long-haul flight when you know other passengers are trying to sleep!

Quoting Dufo (Reply 24):
What is the point of travelling with infants anyway?
I understand if you're moving to live somewhere but to take them on a visit or vacation when they're that young? Couldn't you give them to relatives for those few days?

What if you live in the US and your infants' grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. live in Europe? Are infants not entitled to travel to see these people in the flesh? I, like most people I'm sure, only travel with an infant if we have to. It's not all roses for the parents either!

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-02-09 18:40:59 and read 8323 times.

I just realized something... Half the people I know who *pay* for international first travel with their children. (From stundmen to CEOs. If airlines really banned kids, I couldn't see how they would survive out of LAX. In fact, every flier I know with over 2 million miles had a point in their career where they were bringing the family along. If they couldn't, I'm certain they would have switched whatever airline they were loyal to.

So let airlines ban kids. That is banning frequent fliers during the stage of their life when they have a family and are working to keep it close. They'll move on to another airline and we'll wonder why the airlines that ban have a dirth of 'Platinum' frequent fliers.

Quoting cha747 (Reply 62):
My stance is if you want to avoid a nuisance on board, invest in appropriate headphones or drive. I'm bringing my kid.

Good for you. I'll bring my kids too. As I noted before, any airline that keeps them out of a class of service won't get my business and I think I can influence a few dozen people who fly way more than I do.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 64):
drunk canceling headphone.

How much?

Quoting bond007 (Reply 74):
It can quite easily ban children from rows 1-6,

That is OK (as long as there are similar class seats aviable for paying passengers with kids.) For example, I'm sure the seats next to the bar on EK's A380 would not attract parents with kids. There will be a 'natural selection' of seat assignments there...

Its having a whole deck prohibited that I strongly object to.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 76):
I think the annoying little yapping mutt in the Louis Vuitton carry case is far worse than any child

That is when you want kids. They mellow out the puppy and the puppy mellows out the kids.   

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: enginebird
Posted 2013-02-10 00:52:46 and read 8074 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 78):
So let airlines ban kids. That is banning frequent fliers during the stage of their life when they have a family and are working to keep it close. They'll move on to another airline and we'll wonder why the airlines that ban have a dirth of 'Platinum' frequent fliers.
[...]
Good for you. I'll bring my kids too. As I noted before, any airline that keeps them out of a class of service won't get my business and I think I can influence a few dozen people who fly way more than I do.

Thank you!   

Exactly what I said in a post yesterday. As soon as I know an airline has a non-friendly policy concerning kids, they lose my leisure and business revenue. -- Parents are very sensitive when it comes to their kids. One airline caused some serious discomfort to our son and thus to us a few years ago, due to providing some misinformation before the flight, and did little to rectify the situation. We have never flown this airline since, an airline I had been a frequent flyer with for more than a decade...

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: Pellegrine
Posted 2013-02-10 02:04:04 and read 8013 times.

This thread reminds me how nasty human beings can be. Humanity really disappoints me at times.

Quoting deepunderground (Reply 60):
SQ certainly don't ban kids upstairs on A380.

Awwwwwwwww OMG how cute. I can't wait until I have kids with my partner, when he wants them, i do hahahha .

My kids are coming in F or J with me, and f*** all the rest of you who don't want it.


BTW, I don't understand this notion that some people have about paying extra for a ticket entitles them to a child-free atmosphere...? If the parents/guardians pay for it.... Riding on an airplane is really like a glorified bus ride nowadays.

If you want no kids, have none yourself, and talk about how much money you spent on F............take a private jet.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: cha747
Posted 2013-02-10 05:55:29 and read 7848 times.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 80):
My kids are coming in F or J with me, and f*** all the rest of you who don't want it.


BTW, I don't understand this notion that some people have about paying extra for a ticket entitles them to a child-free atmosphere...? If the parents/guardians pay for it.... Riding on an airplane is really like a glorified bus ride nowadays.

If you want no kids, have none yourself, and talk about how much money you spent on F............take a private jet.

Amen...this thread should be locked at some point soon. No point in complaining about first world problems.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: sweair
Posted 2013-02-10 06:10:53 and read 7830 times.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 80):
My kids are coming in F or J with me, and f*** all the rest of you who don't want it.

Will you teach your future children to totally disrespect others? The world does not revolve around you, yeah what a surprise.

IF some airlines would offer this service why on earth do you want to ban them? Just go with someone else. Its just another niche of service trying to gain some extra profit, no one is banning kids from flying even in F or J, just a small part of the cabin or a small tiny section. Think of it as a library..

I always conform to those around me, I expect others to do the same towards me. That is really all.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: toobz
Posted 2013-02-10 06:24:21 and read 7817 times.

Why are people so sensitive about this? Is it really that awful that one or two airlines don't allow children in the front cabins? lol don't fly them. enough said. This has gone way off topic.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-02-10 08:26:29 and read 7694 times.

Quoting toobz (Reply 83):
Why are people so sensitive about this? Is it really that awful that one or two airlines don't allow children in the front cabins? lol don't fly them. enough said. This has gone way off topic.

I tend to agree, yet this topic seems to garner a lot of emotion. Like the obese passenger discussion that crops up from time to time.

An airline has made a marketing decision. If one doesn't like that decision, don't fly them. It really is very very simple.

It is like Herb Kelleher of Southwest Airlines used to say. "You don't like Southwest, and refuse to fly us any more ... fine, we'll miss you. Next"

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: readytotaxi
Posted 2013-02-10 09:10:00 and read 7619 times.

Okay, how about this idea.

" XYZ Airlines policy on the carriage of children. This airline will not board any child under 12yrs old on all flights that depart on a Monday or a Friday"

Families and Businessmen/women all know where they stand BEFORE they fly.
Just a thought.   

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-02-10 09:12:37 and read 7622 times.

Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 85):
Okay, how about this idea.

Or when United Airlines had "Men-only" flights. It was stated as such in timetables and advertising. A marketing decision, if one didn't like it, I am sure American Airlines was more than willing to carry you.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: bond007
Posted 2013-02-10 11:04:11 and read 7499 times.

Quoting greenjet (Reply 77):
Believe me, it is not music to parents' ears. It's actually a very stressful situation for the parent, particularly on an overnight long-haul flight when you know other passengers are trying to sleep!

So you must understand how some folks might want an area on an aircraft where they can pay a premium and not be subject to that!

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 78):
So let airlines ban kids

Not sure how we got to this ....wasn't this discussion about certain areas? First/Business?

Quoting enginebird (Reply 79):
We have never flown this airline since, an airline I had been a frequent flyer with for more than a decade...

The truth is that most folks have little choice of what airline they fly, without some inconvenience. I don't disagree with your right to choose any airline, but the bottom line is that it will make little difference .... and for all those that choose not to fly, you may well get more people that DO choose to fly them for those exact same reasons.

Now for the great hypocrisy ....see below:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 80):
This thread reminds me how nasty human beings can be. Humanity really disappoints me at times.
Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 80):
and f*** all the rest of you who don't want it
Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 80):
If you want no kids, have none yourself, and talk about how much money you spent on F............take a private jet.

...wasn't that a perfect example of how nasty human beings can be .... the worst said on this thread so far!!

Quoting cha747 (Reply 81):
Amen...this thread should be locked at some point soon.

Why, because some folks disagree with your views? I don't understand??


Jimbo

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: sweair
Posted 2013-02-10 11:38:08 and read 7435 times.

Its really not so radical, a tiny space of all the space on a large aircraft dedicated for adults willing to pay for peace and quiet. How this can provoke so many people is beyond me. One more thing to consider, maybe this would not be needed if more people were considerate towards their surrounding?

I never bother anyone else on a flight, I go out of my way to be as smooth as I can and respect fellow travellers, I would never even let one go in the cabin as many do, total disrespect IMO. I never drink or get drunk, I mostly read, watch a movie or sleep. That is how I was brought up, respect other people.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: mjoelnir
Posted 2013-02-10 11:40:27 and read 7434 times.

I do not understand why banning children would be a marketing decision and banning obese people or black or redheads or old or whatever would be a discrimination issue.
Banning children is both a discrimination against children and as well there parents and if that discrimination is possible, why fight any other discrimination.
If some airlines in remote areas would start banning kids, you could compare that to a travel ban.

As I live in Iceland my trip starts out usually with a flight with lots of children on a very children friendly airline.

All through my travels I have less been disturbed by kids than by obnoxious adults.

I yet have to see kids smoking in the lavatory and delaying the flight for example.
I have been spewed upon by three adults in flight, two obnoxious drunks both times in business class, and once a lady going suddenly very ill and straight to the hospital on landing, I do not know how often she apologized.

I have been spewed upon by my children at home, and I would prefer that both in amount and smell to the drunks.

[Edited 2013-02-10 11:41:34]

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-02-10 11:47:20 and read 7428 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 86):
Or when United Airlines had "Men-only" flights. It was stated as such in timetables and advertising. A marketing decision, if one didn't like it, I am sure American Airlines was more than willing to carry you.

Right, so let's have white-only flights: no blacks, no Indians and, of course, no arabs. If you don't like it, hey choose another airline!  

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-02-10 11:58:50 and read 7399 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 90):
Quoting longhauler (Reply 86):
Or when United Airlines had "Men-only" flights. It was stated as such in timetables and advertising. A marketing decision, if one didn't like it, I am sure American Airlines was more than willing to carry you.

Right, so let's have white-only flights: no blacks, no Indians and, of course, no arabs. If you don't like it, hey choose another airline!

Well, whether one thinks it was right or wrong, it IS what United did. And that was one's only choice if not a man ... take another flight.

They were willing to risk offending half of the population with this marketing decision. (But probably only about 20% of the travelling public). Interestingly enough, American's competing flight had a "ladies welcome" by-line!

So an airline has a "no babies" rule. Does the competition advertise "babies welcome"?

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: enginebird
Posted 2013-02-10 12:02:44 and read 7389 times.

Quoting bond007 (Reply 87):
Quoting enginebird (Reply 79):
We have never flown this airline since, an airline I had been a frequent flyer with for more than a decade...

The truth is that most folks have little choice of what airline they fly, without some inconvenience. I don't disagree with your right to choose any airline, but the bottom line is that it will make little difference .... and for all those that choose not to fly, you may well get more people that DO choose to fly them for those exact same reasons.

Good thing is: I do have the choice between several airlines/alliances on most of my longer trips. Airlines will certainly not go out of business because I exercise my choice and fly with their competitors, but first of all, it makes me feel better if they do not get my money and, secondly, if enough customers spend their cash elsewhere, they may go out of business eventually.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: bond007
Posted 2013-02-10 12:08:32 and read 7380 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 91):
So an airline has a "no babies" rule. Does the competition advertise "babies welcome"?

Yes, and I can absolutely guarantee that those airlines welcoming babies will see a decrease in other passengers....everyone will be happy!


Jimbo

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: toobz
Posted 2013-02-10 12:10:10 and read 7377 times.

UALWN...that's being excessive. Nobody is suggesting that but yourself. When you go to a bar in the US, do they ban children and blacks and gays and Indians?Nope. Just children. That's all we are talking about. Is children. Nothing else. Don't be so dramatic. Would you say that bars in the US are discriminating?

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: sweair
Posted 2013-02-10 12:18:22 and read 7354 times.

Freaking nuts, a small part of the cabin does not equal the whole flight. Very few airlines would be able to fill a flight if they had a child ban. Why is that so unthinkable to have a few rows that children below 12 are not allowed to sit in? The rest of 93% of the aircraft is free to sit on...

Isn´t this more of a if I am putting up then why shouldn´t everyone else have to?

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-02-10 12:20:51 and read 7352 times.

Quoting toobz (Reply 94):
UALWN...that's being excessive. Nobody is suggesting that but yourself.

Well, somebody brought up men-only flights. How is this different?

Quoting toobz (Reply 94):
Would you say that bars in the US are discriminating?

Uh? That's done in order to protect children. Children are not allowed to work either. Is that discriminatory too? Of course not.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: bond007
Posted 2013-02-10 12:33:48 and read 7322 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 96):
Uh? That's done in order to protect children. Children are not allowed to work either. Is that discriminatory too? Of course not.

Please let's stop this 'discriminating' argument.

You can't sit in some preferred seats unless you are an elite FF - maybe you can't sit in some seats if you are under 12.

Call it what you like, but the airlines restrict pax from certain seats/areas based upon other criteria than what fare you pay - and will continue to do so.



Jimbo

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-02-10 12:37:58 and read 7323 times.

Quoting bond007 (Reply 97):
You can't sit in some preferred seats unless you are an elite FF - maybe you can't sit in some seats if you are under 12.

What about an elite FF who is 11 years old? If anybody can achieve FF status (by flying a lot, having a certain credit card, etc.) of course it's not discriminatory.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: DarkSnowyNight
Posted 2013-02-10 12:40:17 and read 7303 times.

Quoting deepunderground (Reply 60):

That is great. But I'm curious, did they make you all put a belt over that baby? I can see where it would be effective for some motions, but actually dangerous for others when lying down. In anycase....

Like I said, that's great. I'd love to be able to do that for my kids more often, but with my DarkSnowyBudget, J-class is a once (or less) time a year deal for my girls & I. Nevermind something like SQ Suites, lol... Anyway, good for you all...

Quoting enginebird (Reply 79):
As soon as I know an airline has a non-friendly policy concerning kids, they lose my leisure and business revenue.

Very good. I act the same whenever possible. T-Mobile screwed up pretty royally on my personal account for a few months running. Not only did I fire them, but as soon as I had any discretion at out Southern Calif. stations, I switched us all to another carrier and actually wrote them a letter about it. I doubt they cared much, since it was only about $25,000 a month worth of business, but it felt right, lol.

In any case, I say right on! If they're going to treat your kids poorly, they should lose all your business.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-10 12:57:16 and read 7281 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 96):
Well, somebody brought up men-only flights. How is this different?

Because the UA "Men Only Executive Flights" between Chicago and New York would never be permitted today. A lot has changed since those days. On some business-oriented flights today women probably outnumber men.

This UA ad from the 1960s also wouldn't be acceptable today.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRPWbraGpR8

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: sweair
Posted 2013-02-10 13:04:00 and read 7259 times.

People get emotional and rational thinking goes bye bye, it is useless to explain anything more in this thread.

I see no problem with childfree sections in a cabin, I don´t see a problem with women only at my local swimming pool one night of the week, or ladies night a show for ladies only.

I guess I have thicker skin?

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: bond007
Posted 2013-02-10 13:09:38 and read 7257 times.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 99):
In any case, I say right on! If they're going to treat your kids poorly, they should lose all your business.

Nobody is discussing treating your kids poorly.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 98):
What about an elite FF who is 11 years old? If anybody can achieve FF status (by flying a lot, having a certain credit card, etc.) of course it's not discriminatory.

if it's not discriminatory to restrict seats to those with a certain status, or a certain credit card, then it's not discriminatory to restrict a few seats by age.

If you still so believe it's age discrimination, then let's just restrict some seats to those with a valid drivers license, and move one....


Jimbo

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: DarkSnowyNight
Posted 2013-02-10 13:18:39 and read 7228 times.

Quoting bond007 (Reply 102):
Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 99):
In any case, I say right on! If they're going to treat your kids poorly, they should lose all your business.

Nobody is discussing treating your kids poorly.

Gotta read all the way back to the post I referenced. In any case, discrimination is always poor treatment in my book.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-02-10 13:19:11 and read 7232 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 100):
Because the UA "Men Only Executive Flights" between Chicago and New York would never be permitted today.

Neither would the white-only flights I was discussing.

Quoting bond007 (Reply 102):
f it's not discriminatory to restrict seats to those with a certain status, or a certain credit card, then it's not discriminatory to restrict a few seats by age.

Anybody can fly a certain amount of miles and have status, regardless of age. But people aged 11 cannot suddenly become 18 years old. Now, what about restricting some flights (or some seats) to people under, say, 40. Would that be discriminatory?

Quoting bond007 (Reply 102):
If you still so believe it's age discrimination, then let's just restrict some seats to those with a valid drivers license, and move one....

Why? Is driving necessary in order to seat on a plane? I don't think so. Then it would be discriminatory.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: toobz
Posted 2013-02-10 13:20:03 and read 7224 times.

I take back what I said earlier about some kids stressing me out. I think some adults have proven to be even more annoying. After thinking about this, I will GLADLY sit next to your kid than you yourself. Ugh..I'm so outta this thread lol

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-02-10 13:26:25 and read 7232 times.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 45):
The infant was so quite
Quoting falstaff (Reply 45):
but they sure were quite
Quoting falstaff (Reply 45):
keeping their kids quite

THREE TIMES??? It's QUIET, not quite! Have mom proofread.

Quoting Mir (Reply 59):
An airplane is simply a mode of transport, nothing more.

For me at least, An airplane is MORE than simply a mode of transport,

Quoting cha747 (Reply 62):
The man said, "your little boy needs to get used to flying." I shut him up when I told him that my son was Silver Preferred.

I met a DL passenger whose 5-year old son was Platinum!!

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: falstaff
Posted 2013-02-10 15:10:19 and read 7104 times.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 106):

THREE TIMES??? It's QUIET, not quite! Have mom proofread.

That is uncalled for. What do you care if my spelling sucks? This is an online forum, not a graduate class. I am sure there are other spelling errors on the last 106 posts.

Before dragging my mother into this why don't you look at my profile. I am not some kid who lives with his parents.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: 777way
Posted 2013-02-10 15:40:01 and read 7065 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 1):
I believe MH has this policy too.
Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
Malaysia Airlines also does not allow infants to be seated in the First Class cabin of their 747-400 aircraft.

Saftey related only as bassinet cannot be fixed to whatever new changes they have made on 747 F class.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2013-02-10 16:21:45 and read 7008 times.

Quoting 777way (Reply 108):
Safety related only as bassinet cannot be fixed to whatever new changes they have made on 747 F class.

Good to see a post on topic and not a rant. Well done Sir.

People like to throw the word discrimination about. But what is discrimination? Is it always bad? Some people like cocoa-pops, others prefer rice-krispies. That's discrimination. Is it bad? A subjective answer can only be given. But is treating people differently always discriminatory and wrong? If a person is unable to walk and you provide them with a wheelchair while expecting others to walk that is certainly discriminating but few would argue against it.

But airlines don't operate on the basis of what you or I think is discrimination. They operate on the basis of the law, which may differ from one country to another. The law defines what constitutes discrimination, usually defining it as treating people adversely on the basis of;
some objective factor(s) over which the person has no control - like, race, sex, age, for example;
over some factors over which they may exercise choice - like trade union membership, political affiliation or religious belief;
and in certain areas - for example, employment, accommodation, provision of services, etc. Those same laws may provide for permissible exemptions.

The law may go further and determine that a rule or requirement that appears on the surface to be non-discriminatory may in practice be so because it has greater adverse impact on one group than it does on others. The suggestion that preferred seating be can only be offered to those who hold a drivers' licence would fall into this category if it is unlawful to discriminate on the basis of age, for the simple reason that children are generally unable to obtain a drivers' licence.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: BasilFawlty
Posted 2013-02-10 16:25:38 and read 7013 times.

Quoting g500 (Reply 2):
I don't think business people want a screaming child seating next to them. That noise might music to parents' ears, but its pure torture to mine..

   Can't agree more.

Quoting Dufo (Reply 24):
What is the point of travelling with infants anyway?
I understand if you're moving to live somewhere but to take them on a visit or vacation when they're that young? Couldn't you give them to relatives for those few days?

   Best post in this whole thread!   

Quoting fraspotter (Reply 28):
Children are not pets...

Well, there's not much difference in my view. They don't listen, they make noise, they smell, they're expensive, etc...

Quoting richierich (Reply 46):
Seriously? That has to be one of the most naive and stupid comments I have read in quite a long time.

Why? We accept it when people don't like dogs, we accept it when people don't like parties, we accept it when people don't like alcohol, but why can't some folks just accept that there are people on this planet who don't like children?

Quoting greenjet (Reply 77):
What if you live in the US and your infants' grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. live in Europe? Are infants not entitled to travel to see these people in the flesh? I, like most people I'm sure, only travel with an infant if we have to.

Very easy, buy the tickets for them instead of for your own family and let them fly to you.

Quoting greenjet (Reply 77):
It's not all roses for the parents either!

That's what you should think before you take children.  
Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 89):
Banning children is both a discrimination against children and as well there parents and if that discrimination is possible, why fight any other discrimination.

No it isn't. Children are banned from nightclubs and from driving a car. Is that discrimination? Ofcourse not. Adults are not allowed in IKEA and McDonalds playgrounds. Is that discrimination? Ofcourse not. So why on earth would banning children from aircraft be discrimination?

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-02-10 16:29:15 and read 6992 times.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 107):
I am sure there are other spelling errors on the last 106 posts.

Oh, all over the place, but not the same error three times in one post. It should be noted that one of the rules is to 'Check your spelling!'. It should also be noted the another rule prohibits criticizing others. So, I retract my earlier criticism.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: greenjet
Posted 2013-02-10 16:40:17 and read 6975 times.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 110):
Very easy, buy the tickets for them instead of for your own family and let them fly to you.

That's one of the most idiotic things I've read here. And that's saying something.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 110):
That's what you should think before you take children.

Thanks, again I appreciate your valued input. I expected better of someone whose age is supposedly 26-35 but you must be a late bloomer...

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-02-10 16:41:59 and read 6973 times.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 110):
Children are banned from nightclubs and from driving a car.

For their safety.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 110):
Adults are not allowed in IKEA and McDonalds playgrounds.

For the safety of the children.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 110):
So why on earth would banning children from aircraft be discrimination?

Because, unlike in the other examples, there's no reason to do it. I'll ask again: would banning people over, say, 60 from aircraft be discriminatory?

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: BasilFawlty
Posted 2013-02-10 17:01:17 and read 6934 times.

Quoting greenjet (Reply 112):
That's one of the most idiotic things I've read here. And that's saying something.

Why? It's much easier for adults (well, except very elderly disabled adults ofcourse) to travel then it is for families with small children.

Quoting greenjet (Reply 112):
Thanks, again I appreciate your valued input.

You're welcome sir. 
Quoting UALWN (Reply 113):
For their safety.
Quoting UALWN (Reply 113):
For the safety of the children.

So if the benefit is safety it's allowed to ban people? But if the benefit is convenience for other passengers, it's discrimination?

Quoting UALWN (Reply 113):
Because, unlike in the other examples, there's no reason to do it.

Yes there is, for the convenience of most other passengers.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 113):
I'll ask again: would banning people over, say, 60 from aircraft be discriminatory?

Well, that would depend on the reason why they're banned, in my view.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2013-02-10 17:43:39 and read 6883 times.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 114):
Quoting UALWN (Reply 113):I'll ask again: would banning people over, say, 60 from aircraft be discriminatory?
Well, that would depend on the reason why they're banned, in my view.

For the convenience of other passengers, maybe. You know, they can be a bit slow, they can get confused about where their seats are, holding others up during boarding. They might not be so attentive to personal hygiene. That can upset other passengers, so perhaps....

And then they waste the crews time by being indecisive when it comes to the chicken or the fish or they can't hear the question so the crew have to repeat it. Then they disturb others by repeatedly getting up to run (slowly) to the toilet. If all that isn't bad enough, they can't figure out how to use the IFE and keep pointlessly prodding the seat in front. Yes, think how much nicer the cabin would be without them. I'd better get all my travel in now while I am still allowed to.  

Take any group you like and I am sure that an argument could be made for banning that group. Ban 18 - 30 year olds because they never follow the direction of crew by turning off their ilatestmusthavegadget and are super-opinionated. One can have lots of fun inventing reasons to ban people based on assumptions about a group rather than the individuals actual behaviour.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-02-10 17:55:17 and read 6875 times.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 114):
So if the benefit is safety it's allowed to ban people? But if the benefit is convenience for other passengers, it's discrimination?

Yes. A million times yes.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-02-10 19:00:41 and read 6814 times.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 110):
Well, there's not much difference in my view. They don't listen, they make noise, they smell, they're expensive, etc...

I don't want to sound like a jerk, but you sound very uneducated right now. There are many children that I know that are very well-behaved, quiet, and clean.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 110):
Children are banned from nightclubs and from driving a car.

These are purely for their safety.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 110):
Very easy, buy the tickets for them instead of for your own family and let them fly to you.

Okay, what about my grandfather who cannot navigate an airport on his own nor can he walk steadily or my grandmother (God rest her soul) that needed oxygen 24/7 and couldn't fly? Not everybody has the same easy conditions that you seem to have.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 114):
So if the benefit is safety it's allowed to ban people? But if the benefit is convenience for other passengers, it's discrimination?

Yes.

Quoting bond007 (Reply 102):
if it's not discriminatory to restrict seats to those with a certain status, or a certain credit card, then it's not discriminatory to restrict a few seats by age.If you still so believe it's age discrimination, then let's just restrict some seats to those with a valid drivers license, and move one....

What about me? I'm 15 years old, a US Airways Dividend Miles Member (under me, not either of my parents), and have flown by myself 12-13 times. Should parts of the plane be restricted from me until I recieve my Driver's License in August? I know more are flying and normal procedures than most of my relatives. I actually plan most of my relatives' flights.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-02-11 00:51:07 and read 6657 times.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 114):
So if the benefit is safety it's allowed to ban people? But if the benefit is convenience for other passengers, it's discrimination?

Yes, it is.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 114):
Well, that would depend on the reason why they're banned, in my view.

Say for the convenience of other passengers, as pointed out in reply #115.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 115):
Take any group you like and I am sure that an argument could be made for banning that group.

Exactly my point.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: enginebird
Posted 2013-02-11 01:13:24 and read 6638 times.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 111):
It should also be noted the another rule prohibits criticizing others.

I am not sure that the misspelling of one word is much worse than your obvious problem to build a grammtical sentence. What would you say now, if I told you to have your mom check your syntax?

As to the comments of BasilFawlty, who has taken center stage in this thread recently:
People should travel more with their kids and not less, to widen both the parents' as well as the children's horizons. Wish your parents had done the same when you were a kid...

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: ekgold
Posted 2013-02-11 01:32:34 and read 6594 times.

Get over yourselves i say.... if you are sitting in F/J you have your noise canceling headphones and if the child is traveling with the adult, then it is unlikely that you are going to be seated next to the child in this class. Given seat pitches and ambient noise of the aircraft the noise of a crying child is not that disturbing. on rare occasions a child may be upset during a flight for long portions of it. Yes you may be slightly inconvenienced by having to turn the volume up on the AVOD or your iPod, but that is life. At least the child is not falling over you drunk or being obnoxious in the cabin about not getting the lobster starter... and letting everyone in the cabin know about it.

Yes i have a daughter who is now 5 and she has been traveling J and on rare occasions F on ULH flights between Dubai and Australasia as well as LH flights Dubai to Europe. She has always been well behaved and certainly far better behaved than the rabble at the rear bar/lounge in J on the EK 380. iPad and/or AVOD and she is content for the whole of the journey nowadays.... As an infant she mostly slept but every now and again had a cry because she wanted something or was not feeling to well. On an overnight flight from Nagoya to Dubai in J when she was 6 months old, one arrogant 50 odd yo male passenger asked me whether the child new how to behave in this cabin. pleased to say that she slept the entire 10 hour flight whilst he spent the first 4 hours necking wines and being totally rude to crew and pax near him, then snored like a train for the remainder of the flight. both awake and asleep he was a pain in the but.

At some point in your traveling life, every demographic is going make your flight a living hell.... not sure why we are singling out kids in this respect.......

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: DarkSnowyNight
Posted 2013-02-11 02:30:27 and read 6543 times.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 107):

That is uncalled for. What do you care if my spelling sucks? This is an online forum, not a graduate class. I am sure there are other spelling errors on the last 106 posts.

Not mine. Why mine's so perfect 100% of the time that I can't even hear your post over the sound of how infallibly perfect my perfectly perfect spelling is!  

I knew what you meant, & I think the rest of us do too.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 106):
For me at least, An airplane is MORE than simply a mode of transport,

As it is for all of us. But kids have to get places too, & when their parents are in charge, they really don't get a say so in the matter.

Quoting 777way (Reply 108):
Saftey related only as bassinet cannot be fixed to whatever new changes they have made on 747 F class.

Yeah, I'd be in favor of restricting kids from anywhere if it's a genuine safety concern. If the FAA were to decide that the upper deck of a 747 is a no go, as they have for exit row seating, then that's the way it is. I just don't agree that they should be banned from J & F, just because they might make noise.


Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 110):
Well, there's not much difference in my view. They don't listen, they make noise, they smell, they're expensive, etc...

And you could say that a lot of pets do not do those things too if you want. But the problem with labeling all kids as snot nosed noise generators (as some here are wont to do), is that it is still a generalization, and not a fact based finding. Yes, there are bratty kids out there (though even then, they have the legitimate excuse of ignorance; what's ours?), but nothing like enough to warrant this type of discrimination. There are Muslims who'd hijack a plane given half a chance. Should we bannish all adherents of Islam from flying? These things need to be taken on a case by case basis.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: readytotaxi
Posted 2013-02-11 05:08:04 and read 6440 times.

I gotta post this one again.  

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: falstaff
Posted 2013-02-11 09:04:34 and read 6278 times.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 110):
Very easy, buy the tickets for them instead of for your own family and let them fly to you.

That would be extremely expensive. Back when I was a wee lad, flying on TW 707s and L1011s. It would have been way too expensive for mom and dad to pay for their parents and families to come and visit. That would have been 8 round trips instead of two (or three once I was old enough).

Quoting UALWN (Reply 113):
For the safety of the children.

And the adults. I could see some fat adult getting stuck in the tunnel slide.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: richierich
Posted 2013-02-11 09:58:54 and read 6198 times.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 52):
Errr, no. It's just a different way of life. Calling people stupid because of their different habits is just, you said that, stupid.
Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 110):
Why? We accept it when people don't like dogs, we accept it when people don't like parties, we accept it when people don't like alcohol, but why can't some folks just accept that there are people on this planet who don't like children?

The comment read that traveling with children should be banned and 'infants shouldnt travel' anyway, because they are too young to get anything out of it. My reply is that is an incredibly insensitive and "stupid" comment. People travel with children and infants for all kinds of reasons, not just to piss off other travelers who feel it is their right to travel without seeing or hearing anybody else. Grow up. Flying on an airline is, after all, public transportation and all sorts of people choose to fly. It sucks when babies cry incessantly (and as hard as it maybe for some to believe, colic babies cry all the time due to no fault of their parents.) But it's the way it goes. We were all kids once and I think I can see who the whiney babies were.

If airlines want to ban children/infants from F or J, fine. That's an airline policy but I'm sure there will always be an airline willing to take them if the tickets are paid for. But to insinuate that people should not travel with their infants is disgustingly ignorant and clearly not from somebody who has kids or should ever have kids. I feel that strongly about it because, Basil, children are NOT LIKE PETS and to even make that argument shows me how you don't get it. Leaving kids with relatives just so you can have a "quiet" flight? My response to that would not be allowed on airliners.net. I may share your love of Fawlty Towers but not your opinion on traveling with kids, obviously.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: Skydrol
Posted 2013-02-11 10:24:27 and read 6157 times.

Give all kids a fair chance to enjoy the thrill of flight as well.

But If they scream, cry, kick the seat in front of them, or become a nuisance, this is the correct way to deal with it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbnRRGISLQE

 Smile Big grin



✈ LD4 ✈

[Edited 2013-02-11 10:27:39]

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: sweair
Posted 2013-02-11 10:31:01 and read 6128 times.

Again, a small section of a large air craft, why is that so wrong? Say 5 or 6 rows.

Come on people stop being drama queens. However I think there are some flights from Sweden that are for kids over 12 only. Don´t know if they caught on.

I would say its ok with a small section child free, that is nothing more than customer service IMO. I will take my sisters 3 kids to Spain the coming summer, wild critters, it will be fun!

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: Maersk737
Posted 2013-02-11 11:37:41 and read 6069 times.

Why don't we just accept it.... Kids are here to stay   Like the NW DC 9, And the dirty airplanes of Air France  

Cheers

Peter

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: richierich
Posted 2013-02-11 12:23:16 and read 6016 times.

Quoting sweair (Reply 127):
Again, a small section of a large air craft, why is that so wrong? Say 5 or 6 rows.

Come on people stop being drama queens. However I think there are some flights from Sweden that are for kids over 12 only. Don´t know if they caught on.

I would say its ok with a small section child free, that is nothing more than customer service IMO. I will take my sisters 3 kids to Spain the coming summer, wild critters, it will be fun!

I'm fine with that, if carriers want to do that. But when some posters come on here and insinuate that children/infants should not travel, that's where I draw the line.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: bond007
Posted 2013-02-11 12:50:52 and read 5982 times.

Quoting ekgold (Reply 120):
Get over yourselves i say....

...and I say the same thing  
Quoting ekgold (Reply 120):
then it is unlikely that you are going to be seated next to the child in this class.

Then get over the fact that some of us want to restrict children from it, especially since you think it's unlikely to happen anyway. Seems like complaining about children's 'rights' for the sake of an argument.

Quoting ekgold (Reply 120):
Given seat pitches and ambient noise of the aircraft the noise of a crying child is not that disturbing

Then you really haven't spent much time flying in the vicinity of a screaming child ... and by that I mean within 20 rows!

Jimbo

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: scbriml
Posted 2013-02-11 13:01:32 and read 5963 times.

Quoting sweair (Reply 127):
Say 5 or 6 rows.

How does that work when the screaming infant is in row 7?

Quoting sweair (Reply 127):
I would say its ok with a small section child free

I just don't see it working. A bit like being on a non-smoking table in a restaurant when the table next to you is smoking.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: bond007
Posted 2013-02-11 14:16:27 and read 5856 times.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 131):
I just don't see it working. A bit like being on a non-smoking table in a restaurant when the table next to you is smoking.

I'd still rather the smoker be on another table than sitting next to me!


Jimbo

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: tsugambler
Posted 2013-02-11 14:19:40 and read 5857 times.

First of all, this thread is not about banning children from flying, It's not about banning children from F (as some seem to think). It's not about how most children are well-behaved. It's not about the drunk people you don't like to sit next to. It's not about children being second-class citizens or akin to pets. This thread is simply about the idea of having some child-free areas on a flight. Second, many commenters seem to be under the misapprehension that flying is some sort of "right."

It's not.

Oh, I suppose it might be a right if your government has its own airline, supported by taxpayer money, and you want to fly on it. But most airlines are private businesses which buy and maintain aircraft, and then sell seats on their aircraft to people who wish to travel to the destinations they offer. As such, the airline has the right to sell tickets and seat people in whatever manner they want. If Airline X has a policy that doesn't allow children under 12 in the upper deck of their 747s, and you don't like that, you might decide not to give them your business, and go with Airline Y instead, which doesn't have that restriction. However, other people are going to make the opposite choice--they may LIKE the fact that they can get a seat in the upper deck of an Airline X 747 without having to worry about upset children making a lot of noise (don't give me the "drunk passenger" thing--that's not the topic of this thread, and is completely irrelevant.). See how the market works? The business in question (Airline X) determined there was a market for child-free areas on their aircraft, and decided to go for it. If this was the wrong business decision, and they lose a lot of business because of it, you can be sure they'll change their tune and QUICK. See how the free market works? Amazing, isn't it?

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: N867DA
Posted 2013-02-11 14:36:24 and read 5836 times.

I have no problem with screaming kids on planes. I consider it a part of travel and such small inconveniences are simply a part of life. However, some folks live turbocharged lives and the only moment of peace they may get is in the air. A reasonable compromise would be for airlines to encourage passengers with infants to occupy portion of the cabin, but not require that they must take one of those seats. The 'child cabin' could have a few more kid-friendly amenities, eg a children's version of the inflight magazine in the seatpocket or a toy of some kind...airlines used to that. I would imagine most responsible parents would jump for a more kid-friendly travel experience.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: CanadianDC10
Posted 2013-02-11 15:00:41 and read 5807 times.

Quoting g500 (Reply 2):
I don't think business people want a screaming child seating next to them. That noise might music to parents' ears, but its pure torture to mine..

Kudos to whichever airlines are doing this

Wow, talk about pretentious and condescending. I don't think ANY person wants a screaming child sitting next to them. A 'business' person shouldn't think so superior of themselves compared to the other 'mere mortals' flying economy, because no one wants an out of control kid beside them. And just because F flyers pay more, doesn't mean they get to say that they shouldn't be beside a kid. A kid is entitled to flying first class just as much as a 'business' person. Your comment makes me feel like the 'business' people are really just douchebags and deserve to have the screaming kids next to them. What makes a 'business' person any different than one in economy? NOTHING. They're both equal human beings.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: YYCSpotter
Posted 2013-02-11 15:59:14 and read 5738 times.

Honestly, people can't tell whether a child/infant will be a nuisance until they actually are one. I remember flying with my family when I was like 8, and my 5 year old brother was fine until we began our descent, during which he started screaming. What do I think of all of this? Children should be treated as a normal passenger until somebody complains, or the F/As can tell that it is getting to be a bit much for the other passengers. Now I'm not saying the F/A should go up to the parent and tell them that their kid is being a brat so they have to make them shut the trap, but a kind gesture to request that the parents attempt to calm their children would be okay. Bottom line: don't deal with the kid until there is an issue that needs to be dealt with.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: toobz
Posted 2013-02-11 16:28:56 and read 5708 times.

This thread is like a vicious traffic accident. I can't help but pop in and cover my eyes and take a peak every now and then.
This thread is about, potentially ONE airline not allowing kids in Premium classes. It's not about giving your parenting advice, it's not about telling other people they are discriminating if they don't like kids, it's not about calling someone else's kids brats, it's not about lecturing how a child should act or showing how immature some parents can be. It is about an airline that has made a choice to not allow it. And that was explained earlier, if people weren't so wrapped up in emotion, that it was due simply because of no place to put a bassinet safely! I've seen topics on here vear way off track but this is insane.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-02-11 17:49:08 and read 5648 times.

Quoting tsugambler (Reply 133):
As such, the airline has the right to sell tickets and seat people in whatever manner they want.

So if that airline decides to forbid blacks (or Jews) from the upper deck, will that be OK too? Just take another airline if you don't like it? It's just free market at work too? What if they decide only people under 60 on the upper deck? Or only men?

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: dfambro
Posted 2013-02-11 22:29:23 and read 5541 times.

Quoting tsugambler (Reply 133):
But most airlines are private businesses which buy and maintain aircraft, and then sell seats on their aircraft to people who wish to travel to the destinations they offer. As such, the airline has the right to sell tickets and seat people in whatever manner they want.

While you can do (almost) whatever you want in your own private plane, but once you start selling tickets to the general public you are held to a higher standard. You no longer can send little Rosa Parks to the back of the Airbus just because it's your policy.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: enginebird
Posted 2013-02-12 01:15:17 and read 5421 times.

[quote=tsugambler,reply=132]Oh, I suppose it might be a right if your government has its own airline, supported by taxpayer money, and you want to fly on it. But most airlines are private businesses which buy and maintain aircraft, and then sell seats on their aircraft to people who wish to travel to the destinations they offer./quote]

If this were true and if we really had a completely private airline industry solely governed by market forces, very few airlines would still be around today. Most airlines, however, including many airlines in the US, would have been long gone without (repeated) support by taxpayers money. There is no free market in the strict sense of the word in most industries, but airplane manufacture and civil aviation are some of the worst examples you could pick to illustrate a "free market situation".

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: AA94
Posted 2013-02-12 03:16:48 and read 5337 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 5):
Can I have a "no obnoxious drunks allowed" section on my flights? I have many more problems with poorly behaved adults than with poorly behaved children.

  

Quoting Jalap (Reply 22):
I'm sure economy pax would also be upset to end up close to a screaming 2 year old for the whole flight. And 1 kid can annoy far more people in economy than in first. But they didn't pay the premium, does that mean they don't have those 'rights'?

  

Quoting bond007 (Reply 26):
Nobody here disagrees with that, but there is nothing to 'get over'. Most folks, including yourself probably, would rather not sit next to a screaming child for an extended time....especially if you paid a premium for a more comfortable environment.

I agree, but just because I sit further back in the plane doesn't mean I have any less "rights" when it comes to sitting next to children.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 117):
What about me? I'm 15 years old, a US Airways Dividend Miles Member (under me, not either of my parents), and have flown by myself 12-13 times. Should parts of the plane be restricted from me until I recieve my Driver's License in August? I know more are flying and normal procedures than most of my relatives. I actually plan most of my relatives' flights.

  

As a 17 year old *Gold, I completely agree.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: scbriml
Posted 2013-02-12 04:20:04 and read 5268 times.

Quoting bond007 (Reply 131):
I'd still rather the smoker be on another table than sitting next to me!

Well, by definition, a smoker on the next table is sat next to you. *shrug*

So you'd be OK in row 5 of your kid-free zone and have the screaming infant in row 6, right behind you?   

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: neutrino
Posted 2013-02-12 10:15:07 and read 5146 times.

Starting this month AirAsiaX have a "quiet zone" from row 7 to 14 where "guests who are travelling with infant or children under 12 will not be eligible to book seats"...for a fee of course!

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: Pellegrine
Posted 2013-02-12 23:21:23 and read 4868 times.

Quoting bond007 (Reply 87):

...wasn't that a perfect example of how nasty human beings can be .... the worst said on this thread so far!!

I have a critical disagreement with you insinuating that I am a perfect example of how nasty humans can be. I am not. You have misinterpreted my post, and I will not stand for it.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: deepunderground
Posted 2013-02-13 00:06:28 and read 4819 times.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 99):
That is great. But I'm curious, did they make you all put a belt over that baby? I can see where it would be effective for some motions, but actually dangerous for others when lying down. In anycase....

Like I said, that's great. I'd love to be able to do that for my kids more often, but with my DarkSnowyBudget, J-class is a once (or less) time a year deal for my girls & I. Nevermind something like SQ Suites, lol... Anyway, good for you all...

The baby was required (obviously) to turn into a lap child with the infant harness whenever the seatbelt sign was on.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: SKAirbus
Posted 2013-02-13 01:39:10 and read 4773 times.

The A380 is a huge aircraft so I think that it is perfectly reasonable to put aside as section of the Y cabin for passengers travelling without children, leaving plenty of room for families to travel on the lower deck. Everyone pays good money for their tickets and should be comfortable in the environment they are travelling.

I think when BA gets their A380, it will be a lot easier to segregate families and non families with an economy cabin on the upper deck and a Club cabin spanning both decks. The only issue would be WT+.

I have to admit I'm not a big fan of young children and my blood boils when their parents cannot control them... A lot of it is laziness on their part. Last year on a flight from LHR to SIN a family let their toddler run up and down the aisle of the aircraft screaming for a good few hours of the flight disturbing passengers trying to sleep (it was the middle of the night!). I asked the stewardess if she could have a word but she refused. SIA are a good airline but their crew haven't really got any balls when it comes to disturbing passengers.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: deepunderground
Posted 2013-02-13 02:40:09 and read 4707 times.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 145):
I asked the stewardess if she could have a word but she refused. SIA are a good airline but their crew haven't really got any balls when it comes to disturbing passengers.

Actually, has a lot more to do with that not really being unacceptable to most south east Asian people.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: bond007
Posted 2013-02-13 06:55:24 and read 4584 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 137):
So if that airline decides to forbid blacks (or Jews) from the upper deck, will that be OK too? Just take another airline if you don't like it? It's just free market at work too? What if they decide only people under 60 on the upper deck? Or only men?

That's not what we are discussing .. simply children.

BTW I am currently staying in a hotel that has a 'Women Only' floor !

Quoting AA94 (Reply 140):
I agree, but just because I sit further back in the plane doesn't mean I have any less "rights" when it comes to sitting next to children.

Well, whatever you call them, you absolutely do have less .... If you pay for a premium seat (F Class) you get many more services etc. Free drinks, better meals, lay flat bed, etc. etc. Having a quiet zone of the aircraft is no different.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 141):
Well, by definition, a smoker on the next table is sat next to you. *shrug*

No, a smoker sitting next to me on the same table is very different than one on the next table. "shrug".
Irrelevant to the discussion anyway. It's quite easy to create a zone with no children ... even have a buffer zone after F class for a couple of rows that do not allow them. I'd still rather be 2 or 3 rows away from a screaming child, than right next to one.





Jimbo

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-02-13 07:00:48 and read 4576 times.

Quoting bond007 (Reply 147):
That's not what we are discussing .. simply children.

How is that any different? Once you start, why stop at children?

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-02-13 07:40:21 and read 4527 times.

Quoting bond007 (Reply 147):

.. even have a buffer zone after F class for a couple of rows that do not allow them.

Sooo.. Create a bigger children-free zone.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: bond007
Posted 2013-02-13 08:17:05 and read 4497 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 148):
How is that any different? Once you start, why stop at children?

Wow, because that is the discussion. It's about noisy kids.

I'm totally amazed how a discussion about noisy children, and restricting them from part of an aircraft can turn into comments about Jews, and black folks ....REALLY guys. We are talking about children from PART of an aircraft. We not discussing banning Jewish folks, or Asians ... and NO, just because you start restricting children does not mean it's just the next step to banning black folks ... that way of thinking is plain ignorance.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 149):
.. even have a buffer zone after F class for a couple of rows that do not allow them.

Sooo.. Create a bigger children-free zone.

Yeah, an extra row is fine by me ... problem?

If you do in fact restrict lets say, F class, then you obviously cannot have a screaming child in the row immediately behind ... again, not rocket science.





Jimbo

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: mjoelnir
Posted 2013-02-13 08:39:57 and read 4477 times.

Quoting bond007 (Reply 150):
Wow, because that is the discussion. It's about noisy kid

That was exactly what was said about blacks in your country around 1950: just blacks keep them in the end of the bus.

The persons doing the discrimination always find it reasonable.

You do not want to exclude noisy kids, you want to exclude kids.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-02-13 08:44:26 and read 4487 times.

Quoting bond007 (Reply 150):
We are talking about children from PART of an aircraft. We not discussing banning Jewish folks, or Asians ... and NO, just because you start restricting children does not mean it's just the next step to banning black folks ...

What's the difference? In both cases, we are telling people who have some attribute they can't control (age or race) that they can't sit in certain seats. Why are children somehow "special?" Because they grow out of it?

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: bond007
Posted 2013-02-13 08:48:31 and read 4487 times.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 151):
That was exactly what was said about blacks in your country around 1950: just blacks keep them in the end of the bus.

Yes, and we did. What's your point?

We didn't then send Jewish people to the back of the bus, and the next year send fat people back there!

I fail to understand your point at all.

Like I said, I'm sitting in a hotel right now that has a whole floor restricted to women only (and it's not for safety) .... WOW, this is just the start isn't it??? Next year they will have a 'whites only' floor, and in 2015 they will no doubt have a 'non-Jewish' floor right?? That's just the logical progression, so it will happen!!!

Do you see now how ridiculous you sound?


Jimbo

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: toobz
Posted 2013-02-13 12:48:24 and read 4313 times.

Cubs...because by law its not discrimination. thats why. Every other example UAL brought up is.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-02-13 12:51:49 and read 4308 times.

Quoting toobz (Reply 157):
Cubs...because by law its not discrimination. thats why.

Lots of things that are bad ideas are legal. Adultery might be a good example. Some might say that some things that are not legal are nonetheless good ideas.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: toobz
Posted 2013-02-13 13:06:32 and read 4298 times.

I got u. Sure. But its not like every airline is doing this. Its just..like what one or two maybe?? People can still bring their kids with them on 99% of the airlines in any cabin they like. What is so bad about this?

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-02-13 13:13:30 and read 4291 times.

Quoting toobz (Reply 159):
People can still bring their kids with them on 99% of the airlines in any cabin they like. What is so bad about this?

It's silly. On most flights with problem passengers, kids aren't the problem.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: toobz
Posted 2013-02-13 13:30:44 and read 4261 times.

I dont think we disagree much. Most problem makers are adults! But as explained..MH reason for this isnt because they find kids problemsome..well at least they arent saying that outright. They are saying they cant transport them safely with their layout in J and F...lol. I dunno. All other airlines do. Maybe this is their way of pu%#yfooting arount the issue. Malaysia is a very conservative part of the world. The laws are very hardcore and I dont know how to say this without affending our members from all parts of the world..but men there are considered higher in rank. Maybe they dont want to be bothered by children...take from that what you will. Different strokes for different folks

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: AA94
Posted 2013-02-13 17:18:38 and read 4172 times.

Quoting bond007 (Reply 147):
Well, whatever you call them, you absolutely do have less .... If you pay for a premium seat (F Class) you get many more services etc. Free drinks, better meals, lay flat bed, etc. etc. Having a quiet zone of the aircraft is no different.

Nowhere in your ticket does it say that buying up to a premium class means that you should not have to sit next to a child. "Rights" and "privileges" are two different things. Your purchasing of a premium ticket entitles you to more privileges than my coach ticket might, but a family / children have just as much of a right to sit next to you as they do me.

If I was buying the expensive seats, I would absolutely like for the cabin to be peaceful and quiet, but I know that I am not entitled to that. You seem to believe that buying up means you're entitled to sitting away from children, which is false.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: infinit
Posted 2013-02-13 18:14:14 and read 4143 times.

Quoting deepunderground (Reply 60):

Oh they're adorable!

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: 777way
Posted 2013-02-13 19:05:56 and read 4114 times.

Quoting toobz (Reply 161):
MH reason for this isnt because they find kids problemsome..well at least they arent saying that outright. They are saying they cant transport them safely with their layout in J and F...lol. I dunno

Why are you trying to twist the story, MH allow kids in F class but not infants that need a bassinet, kids and infants can travel on MH J class with no issues whatsoever from the airline.

Quoting bond007 (Reply 153):
Next year they will have a 'whites only' floor, and in 2015 they will no doubt have a 'non-Jewish' floor right?? That's just the logical progression, so it will happen!!!

well I have been on flights where the white passengers were bunched up together away from the non-whites. The non-Jewish floor bit seems to far fetched conpiratorial thing from only a paranoid Jewish person.

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: bond007
Posted 2013-02-13 22:02:33 and read 4037 times.

Quoting AA94 (Reply 159):
Nowhere in your ticket does it say that buying up to a premium class means that you should not have to sit next to a child.
Quoting AA94 (Reply 159):
You seem to believe that buying up means you're entitled to sitting away from children, which is false.

????

Of course my ticket doesn't say that, neither do I expect it.

I'd like that to be the case, and others don't ... and that is what we are discussing!


Jimbo

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: toobz
Posted 2013-02-14 02:45:20 and read 3933 times.

777 I'm not twisting anything. I used the word kid..sorry. I will use the word infant next time.
And speaking of twisting, I think you are the one making this into more than it is..

"well I have been on flights where the white passengers were bunched up together away from the non-whites. The non-Jewish floor bit seems to far fetched conpiratorial thing from only a paranoid Jewish person"

WTF??

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: 777way
Posted 2013-02-14 02:59:22 and read 3922 times.

No you clearly seemed to hint MH were barring all children from F and J and that Malaysian society might be to blame for this.

What do you mean WTF, I should be saying WTF to you again trying to make something out of nothing, did you read bond007s post that I quoted and then appropraitely responded to?

[Edited 2013-02-14 03:08:46]

Topic: RE: No Kids Allowed In Upper Decks On A380 And 747s?
Username: 777ER
Posted 2013-02-14 03:21:24 and read 3909 times.

This thread has gone way off topic now and has basically turned into a discrimination discussion. Deleting replys would have gutted the thread and required lots of reference posts being deleted also.

This thread is now locked


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