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Topic: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: okAY
Posted 2013-02-08 03:12:26 and read 6313 times.

Hello all,

Finland's national carrier Finnair has made a profit of 0.9 million euros in 2012. This is the first time since 2007.
Finnair Group Financial Statements Bulletin 2012

Development Minister Heidi Hautala has said that she shall take it as one of her priorities to reduce governmental ownership at Finnair this spring if only possible. She specified that all shares of Finnair owned by the government will not be put on sale. However, she sees it vital for the company to be able to make strategic alliances that include shift of ownership from the Finnish government to private investors as well as to other companies.
YLE (in Finnish)

Now, AY is reasonably healthy, who would be interested and what would be the strategic gain from it all?

okAY

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: seansasLCY
Posted 2013-02-08 03:27:34 and read 6268 times.

Could IAG be interested? Its a great hub for linking asia.

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: finnishway
Posted 2013-02-08 03:33:08 and read 6245 times.

Quoting AY" class="quote" target="_blank">okAY (Thread starter):
Now, AY is reasonably healthy, who would be interested

Probably IAG.

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: okAY
Posted 2013-02-08 03:42:41 and read 6198 times.

My bet goes for IAG as well, I have a feeling someone has been knocking on Minister Hautala's door concerning this as she seems to be in a hurry with this.

okAY

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: HELyes
Posted 2013-02-08 08:56:52 and read 5798 times.

Quoting seansasLCY (Reply 1):
Could IAG be interested? Its a great hub for linking asia.

One more for IAG.. Would look good on map at least, the world nicely covered.

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: goosebayguy
Posted 2013-02-08 12:13:07 and read 5594 times.

IAG could have a A380 constantly flying between LHR and HEL delivering passengers for the Far East. Returning with passengers for the Americas.

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: odo
Posted 2013-02-08 14:53:23 and read 5386 times.

Quoting okAY (Thread starter):
Finland's national carrier Finnair has made a profit of 0.9 million euros in 2012.

That's Q4 profit. 2012 profit was 11.8 million euros.

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: Ideekay
Posted 2013-02-08 15:27:04 and read 5316 times.

Good news, hopefully it continues with the profit and they can restore the service like they had a long time ago.

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: KFlyer
Posted 2013-02-08 18:17:54 and read 5174 times.

Well done to Finnair, for they thought differently and found a niche without becoming a me-too. Definitely one of the best European carriers. I hope that the direction will not change, with the CEO's resignation.

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: JU068
Posted 2013-02-09 02:01:02 and read 4856 times.

Great news, so what exactly have they done to save money and to return to profitability? Does anyone know how much their partnership with flybe helped?

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: Ideekay
Posted 2013-02-09 02:24:14 and read 4681 times.

Quoting JU068 (Reply 9):
Great news, so what exactly have they done to save money and to return to profitability? Does anyone know how much their partnership with flybe helped?

They cutted everything, food, salaries and sold all their ground companies (Finnair technics, Catering ect.)
Could be that they got some money from the ATR's which they leased to Flybe Nordic.

As far as I know this will still continue until 2014 atleast.

[Edited 2013-02-09 02:29:05]

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: odo
Posted 2013-02-09 02:37:14 and read 4597 times.

Quoting Ideekay (Reply 10):
They cutted everything, food, salaries and sold all their ground companies (Finnair technics, Catering ect.)
Could be that they got some money from the ATR's which they leased to Flybe Nordic.

This is only half the story. Their revenues and load factor were also up quite nicely. Operational income was 44.9 million euros, that's a 100 million euro improvement over last year. You don't do that just by cutting at company of this size, they clearly have better revenue stream now.

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: JU068
Posted 2013-02-09 03:09:00 and read 4353 times.

Quoting Ideekay (Reply 10):
Quoting odo (Reply 11):

The income from the sale of these various companies, does it contribute to their overall yearly profit or not? Are they planning on outsourcing more of their cabin crew like they did with Spain or..? How did that work out for them?

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: airdfw
Posted 2013-02-09 10:28:14 and read 3993 times.

Can AY be the EK of north? They can do nicely with East-west connection. Only thing is AY needs more North American and possibly Asian connections like DFW, LAX etc with BOM, BLR to make the east-west links. Can BA help them so that HEL is like another BA hub?

AY should make AA-BA-AY link from one side and then AY-JL-MH and may be Hainan links from other side.

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: finnishway
Posted 2013-02-09 10:54:30 and read 3949 times.

Interesting article from the Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...er-Qantas-signs-Emirates-deal.html

"British Airways is seeking a new strategic partner after Qantas ended a 17-year alliance to sign a similar deal with Dubai's Emirates".

"Asia has become a key market focus for IAG and we're talking to a number of airlines about alternative options for us".

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: teme82
Posted 2013-02-10 02:17:18 and read 3699 times.

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 5):
IAG could have a A380 constantly flying between LHR and HEL delivering passengers for the Far East. Returning with passengers for the Americas.

No gates at HEL that can handle A380 and only two buss stands. So that is just a dream.

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: finnishway
Posted 2013-02-10 02:48:09 and read 3653 times.

Quoting teme82 (Reply 15):
No gates at HEL that can handle A380 and only two buss stands. So that is just a dream.

Not yet, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be possible in the future.

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: okAY
Posted 2013-02-10 03:40:16 and read 3594 times.

Quoting odo (Reply 6):

I stand corrected, my bad.

Quoting teme82 (Reply 15):

5-6 years almost no airport in the world was able to accommodate A380. It is just a question of building facilities.

Interesting article in Telegraph. AY must be one of the airlines they are in talks with. Who else is at the table, what you think? Maybe an Asian counterpart?

okAY

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: finnishway
Posted 2013-02-10 04:11:17 and read 3560 times.

Quoting okAY (Reply 17):
Who else is at the table, what you think? Maybe an Asian counterpart?

I would say JL.

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: Continental
Posted 2013-02-10 09:22:08 and read 3377 times.

Partially because I convinced my family to fly Finnair to LJU this past summer!  

This is excellent news. I enjoyed flying them. Their entire product seemed fresh and efficient. Why no additional USA connections? It's hard to believe they only fly to JFK. Could LAX or DFW ever work? I know AA does ORD in the summer. Even though they're so far north, they seem to offer service to much of Europe so shouldn't the connections help fill the USA-Finland flights?

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: Polot
Posted 2013-02-10 09:23:41 and read 3377 times.

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 5):
IAG could have a A380 constantly flying between LHR and HEL delivering passengers for the Far East. Returning with passengers for the Americas.

That is never going to happen, sorry.

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: finnishway
Posted 2013-02-10 09:55:01 and read 3324 times.

Quoting Continental (Reply 19):
Why no additional USA connections? It's hard to believe they only fly to JFK. Could LAX or DFW ever work?

I have wondered that for many years. Their strategy is to fly to Asia which is one reason for that and the other one is that they don't have enough planes. It will be interesting to see what they are going to do with the A330 when A350 arrives. I am not expecting Finnair to start new routes to USA, but I would like to see AA operating MIA-HEL in the winter and ORD-HEL in the summer.

According to Wikipedia Finnair has flown to BOS, DTW, FLL, ORD, LAX, SEA and SFO.

HEL-LAX could actually work well, because there is no direct flights to LAX from Nordic countries or Baltic states. The nearest options are Germany and Russia. Why don't start route from HEL to LAX and get the passengers from Baltic states, Russia and Scandinavia?

In 2011 about 70 000 passengers used AA's ORD-HEL route, according to Finavia. We have to remember that it was only a seasonal route! New York was third busiest destination outside Europe in 2011.

I would like to see Delta returning to HEL, but that probably won't happen in the near future.

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: LHRFlyer
Posted 2013-02-10 10:09:31 and read 3285 times.

Finnair could be a good investment for IAG and the marketing distribution of IAG members and the Avios currency would help provide a lot of feeder traffic. It does have a natural fit into the group with BA focused on North America and Iberia focused on Latin America. Plus there are the cost synergies with IAG.

My only doubt is that BA itself is now growing in Asia and adding new destinations and may see Finnair adding unecessary duplication (geographic advantages of HEL as an Asian notwithstanding).

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: finnishway
Posted 2013-02-10 10:13:04 and read 3274 times.

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 22):
My only doubt is that BA itself is now growing in Asia and adding new destinations and may see Finnair adding unecessary duplication (geographic advantages of HEL as an Asian notwithstanding).

That is why the partner could be JL instead of AY.

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: QANTASvJet
Posted 2013-02-10 11:02:50 and read 3204 times.

An IAG purchase would be great. Have long thought that IAG needs to focus BA on North Atlantic, IB (once it gets knocked into shape) on Africa and Latin America, and absorb AY to provide the lead on Asia (helped by anti-trust protection with CX and JL). But it does require the development of a really effective and financially viable intra-European operation to feed the resultant three hubs, as well as a credit rating that would allow IAG to invest in an expanded long-haul AY fleet, not to mention the Finnish government's support for the deal. Alas given current realities, this all feels pretty unrealistic.

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: HELyes
Posted 2013-02-10 12:00:45 and read 3288 times.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 18):
Quoting Continental (Reply 19):
Why no additional USA connections? It's hard to believe they only fly to JFK. Could LAX or DFW ever work? I know AA does ORD in the summer. Even though they're so far north, they seem to offer service to much of Europe so shouldn't the connections help fill the USA-Finland flights?

Yes would be cool to see them flying more routes to US! They once had scheduled service to SEA, LAX and SFO, my first scheduled long haul flight was HEL-SEA on their DC-10 in late 1980's. Europe-US is just so competed market, it's less risky for them to compete in Asia, HEL is ideally located for the Europe-Far East connections.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 21):
According to Wikipedia Finnair has flown to BOS, DTW, FLL, ORD, LAX, SEA and SFO.

Finnair have never served DTW or ORD, they had seasonal charters to FLL, MIA years back. BOS had an odd seasonal "leisure" service (cramped 757) for a while, Posted 2013-02-10 12:20:47 and read 3247 times.

Quoting QANTASvJet (Reply 24):

That would work if IAG operated in a vacuum and had no competitors. But since they don't that strategy would be crushed by others focusing on areas from one hub. People want as few connections as possible.

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: finnishway
Posted 2013-02-10 12:46:14 and read 3286 times.

Quoting HELyes (Reply 25):
Finnair have never served DTW or ORD

Never should copy from Wikipedia 

[Edited 2013-02-10 12:46:54]

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: sailas
Posted 2013-02-10 22:31:45 and read 3092 times.

How about Qatar airlines? Theyll join one world soon enough...Imagine Ay and qatar togther...

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: QANTASvJet
Posted 2013-02-11 15:09:44 and read 2753 times.

Quoting Polot (Reply 26):

One hub doesnt give you fewer connections: just less convenient ones. Of course BA would still (for example) fly direct LHR to HKG direct, since it's such a busy O&D route, but giving all those passengers across Europe who dont have a direct connection the opportunity to transfer through HEL rather than double-backing to LHR would make their journey quicker and easier. 3 hubs, spaced around the fringes of Europe, makes sense even without the small matter of LHR being full to capacity

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: ju068
Posted 2013-02-11 22:35:47 and read 2631 times.

Quoting HELyes (Reply 25):
HEL is ideally located for the Europe-Far East connections.

Why doesn't Finnair try to enter the United States-Asia market? I suppose that their brand is well known in Asia so this should make things easier, at least when it comes to the Asian side.
When American Airlines operated their flights into Helsinki, could one book a connection to Asia or was it only for their European network?

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: doug_Or
Posted 2013-02-11 23:45:31 and read 2532 times.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 30):
Why doesn't Finnair try to enter the United States-Asia market?

Because the USA is not in Europe. LAX-NRT is almsot exactly half the distance of LAX-HEL-NRT. JFK-HEL-NRT takes 50% longer than JFK-NRT.

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: ju068
Posted 2013-02-12 00:03:26 and read 2498 times.

Quoting doug_Or (Reply 31):

Ok, fine for Tokyo but what about India, Thailand or Singapore?

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: HELyes
Posted 2013-02-12 12:57:53 and read 2226 times.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 32):
Ok, fine for Tokyo but what about India, Thailand or Singapore?



JFK-HEL-India could work, maybe... The great circle route JFK-BOM goes via HEL.
AY served BOM for a while, that time the problem was the JFK/BOM timetables fit well together one way only, the BOM service was built for (Northern) Europe.

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: ju068
Posted 2013-02-12 13:13:10 and read 2185 times.

Quoting HELyes (Reply 33):

Great, thanks for the clarification.
I do wonder what kind of passengers they carry to/from New Delhi. Flying from Europe to New Delhi via Helsinki is not at all direct. Is it O&D?

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: doug_Or
Posted 2013-02-12 13:13:19 and read 2184 times.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 32):
Ok, fine for Tokyo but what about India, Thailand or Singapore?

Huh. They actually kind of work. I picked NRT not because I wanted to make HEL look bad, but because it was close to HEL and one of the biggest air markets in Asia. As HELyes alluded, scheduling an Asian bank that connects both ways with a North American bank would be difficult.

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: ju068
Posted 2013-02-12 13:27:57 and read 2156 times.

Quoting doug_Or (Reply 35):

I knew you didn't want to trash Helsinki but I just asked about these ones because I was wondering if they might work.
Then again, it also depends on how ready they are to face tough competition from Europe mostly from carriers such as British Airways, KLM, Air France, Turkish Airlines... not to mention the Persian Gulf carriers which are constantly expanding in northern America.

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2013-02-12 14:03:03 and read 2112 times.

Quoting doug_Or (Reply 35):
scheduling an Asian bank that connects both ways with a North American bank would be difficult.

This is the biggest problem, and one that all European airlines have unless they run several daily flights on a route.

Flights from North America arrive in Europe in the morning, and flights to Asia generally depart in the evening. Therefore unless they can run two banks of Asian departures (unlikely) then USA-Asia is, unfortunately, not likely to be a priority for AY

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: HELyes
Posted 2013-02-12 14:04:52 and read 2115 times.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 34):
I do wonder what kind of passengers they carry to/from New Delhi. Flying from Europe to New Delhi via Helsinki is not at all direct. Is it O&D?

Not much O&D, mostly connections.
Actually their DEL route works ok for Northern Europe, even for MAN:

MAN-HEL-DEL 3805 nm

MAN-LHR-DEL 3773 nm
MAN-IST-DEL 3923 nm
MAN-DXB-DEL 4239 nm

And smallish HEL provides easy transit.

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: ju068
Posted 2013-02-12 14:11:40 and read 2094 times.

Quoting HELyes (Reply 38):

Great, thanks. Well, for some reasons I found the ceiling freakishly low in Helsinki, especially in that one area before taking the stairs to go collect your luggage.

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: HELyes
Posted 2013-02-12 14:31:52 and read 2070 times.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 37):
This is the biggest problem, and one that all European airlines have unless they run several daily flights on a route.

AY's only 2x daily long haul service is BKK in winter, but even that doesn't work with their JFK service.

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: finnishway
Posted 2013-02-12 15:01:47 and read 2023 times.

Quoting HELyes (Reply 40):
AY's only 2x daily long haul service is BKK in winter

Only because Finnish people are so stupid that they want to travel to Thailand every year. I can't stand people who think Thailand is "cool". People tend to think they are rich when they go to Thailand every year and they look down on people who go to Canary Islands or something like that.

[Edited 2013-02-12 15:02:07]

[Edited 2013-02-12 15:03:39]

[Edited 2013-02-12 15:07:00]

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: okAY
Posted 2013-02-13 01:51:34 and read 1814 times.

As cool as America-Asia gateway sounds, it is not something one can create overnight and would need a whole new strategy which could become difficult to handle alongside with the Europe-Asia strategy.

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: sailas
Posted 2013-02-13 04:05:01 and read 1712 times.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 41):

Calm down.

I think it is nice to see Finns traveling. Its good for AY, and for future business.

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: finnishway
Posted 2013-02-13 04:09:15 and read 1705 times.

Quoting sailas (Reply 43):
I think it is nice to see Finns traveling.

Yes, but to wrong direction.

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: sailas
Posted 2013-02-13 04:42:24 and read 1666 times.

There is no right or wrong direction. Thailand is good for business especially for AY. Many Thai people work in AY and in Finland so it is nice to see cultural bonding, which otherwise is not so evident in Finland.

I think Hanoi will be a very popular destination. Does anyone know, which aircraft they will use?

Im supposed to come back to Finland soon and was checking routes back. I was horrified when i saw that AY flies here in a 757. It would save me time, but as time is not an issue i think i will skip AY and take KL  

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: HELyes
Posted 2013-02-13 04:44:43 and read 1665 times.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 44):
Yes, but to wrong direction.

You mean Finns should travel to Florida instead of Thailand for sun?
I think many would if money wasn't an issue, hard to beat the prices in Thailand for a typical two week holiday. A family I know just said for them Thailand is less expensive than Gran Canaries, comparing hotels with similar standard.

For me BKK is a good base for travelling around SE Asia and Far East. I enjoy visiting N-America as well but I need a lot more cash for that.

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: HELyes
Posted 2013-02-13 04:52:36 and read 1654 times.

Quoting sailas (Reply 45):

They will use A333 to Hanoi.

If you book the Thursday flights from DXB you'll get A340   Thank God their 757's are soon (by Jan 2014?) gone..

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: finnishway
Posted 2013-02-13 04:59:27 and read 1639 times.

Quoting HELyes (Reply 46):
You mean Finns should travel to Florida instead of Thailand for sun?

People shouldn't travel anywhere for sun in my opinion, but Florida is better than Thailand.

Florida or Canary Islands aren't more expensive than Thailand if you don't make them expensive. You can choose how you spend your money at your destination. Usually Thailand is a bit cheaper, but as I said you can make your trip expensive or cheap. I don't understand why people go to Thailand every winter when they have already been there many times. They should try other places too and not always say Thailand is the best.

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: sailas
Posted 2013-02-13 05:01:58 and read 1626 times.

i checked the 28th of march, which is a Thursday, but apparently they have no fights on that day. Are flight to DXB really that full even from Finland?

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: okAY
Posted 2013-02-13 05:16:37 and read 1610 times.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 48):
People shouldn't travel anywhere for sun in my opinion, but Florida is better than Thailand.

A nightmare-statement for anyone working for airline marketing!  

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: ju068
Posted 2013-02-13 05:18:06 and read 1604 times.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 48):
People shouldn't travel anywhere for sun in my opinion

lol.. funny that a Finn says that.  

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: HELyes
Posted 2013-02-13 05:27:26 and read 1603 times.

Quoting sailas (Reply 49):
i checked the 28th of march, which is a Thursday, but apparently they have no fights on that day.

Seems 14th was the last one, the season is over  

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: HELyes
Posted 2013-02-13 05:58:13 and read 1577 times.

Florida is great but it's hard to compare the products if one is not on the menu...

For a start, we would need flights to Florida. For some reason Cuba, Mexico and Dom Republic get charters from HEL but not Florida, hopefully AY returns to MIA one day. And scheduled service, please!

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: finnishway
Posted 2013-02-13 06:18:46 and read 1566 times.

Quoting HELyes (Reply 53):
Florida is great but it's hard to compare the products if one is not on the menu...

Where do we need direct routes? Charter flights sucks also. I try to avoid charter flights as much as I can, because they are always full of drunk people and screaming kids. I prefer scheduled flights where I don't have to hear Finnish very often.

Quoting HELyes (Reply 53):
For a start, we would need flights to Florida. For some reason Cuba, Mexico and Dom Republic get charters from HEL but not Florida, hopefully AY returns to MIA one day.

I hope so too, but with a widebody thanks. I have also asked before why doesn't AA fly MIA-HEL in the winter and ORD-HEL in the summer?

[Edited 2013-02-13 06:19:28]

Topic: RE: Finnair In Black In 2012
Username: AY-MD11
Posted 2013-02-14 03:38:33 and read 1311 times.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 48):
People shouldn't travel anywhere for sun in my opinion, but Florida is better than Thailand.
Quoting finnishway (Reply 41):
Only because Finnish people are so stupid that they want to travel to Thailand every year. I can't stand people who think Thailand is "cool". People tend to think they are rich when they go to Thailand every year and they look down on people who go to Canary Islands or something like that.

Why you care so much where someone wants to go on theyr holiday? If someone wants to go to Thailand or Canary Islands let them do what they want,its not like your paying for them vacation?! Many finnish people have bad habit of watching what other ppl do or go i say concentrate on your own life and you will be happier. We dont have to be thinking all the time what our neighbours are doing it's kind of deppressing and sad dont u think?


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