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Topic: Are DL/UA Hubs In Asia And Europe viable/Profitable?
Username: martinrpo1
Posted 2013-02-16 14:10:20 and read 6775 times.

DL has two hubs outside the United States: AMS and NRT. UA has hubs in GUM and NRT. How viable and profitable are these hubs?

Topic: Are DL/UA Hubs In Asia And Europe viable/Profitable?
Username: mpdpilot
Posted 2013-02-16 14:37:55 and read 6673 times.

Just a small correction, DL also considers Paris de Gaulle a hub as well.

Also I am not expert, but I would say they are doing reasonably well as neither airline has been reducing service. UA did for a while there but they have pretty much right sized themselves in NRT so I don't envision more cuts there. But I am no expert.

Topic: Are DL/UA Hubs In Asia And Europe viable/Profitable?
Username: carpethead
Posted 2013-02-16 18:23:28 and read 6274 times.

Quoting martinrpo1 (Thread starter):
UA has hubs in GUM and NRT.

You do know that GUM is a US territory.
NRT is a semi-hub with just one bank of few really spreadout flights.
I have no knowledge of its profitability.
Saying that, there's nothing in the UA-fleet that can do US-BKK/SIN non-stop economically, so NRT is a very viable stopover point. It just so happens Japan-SIN/BKK has fifth freedom rights. This is the case with NRT-TPE, HKG & ICN. I think one can even book NRT-SGN one-stop via HKG on a 738.

Topic: Are DL/UA Hubs In Asia And Europe viable/Profitable?
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-02-16 18:46:09 and read 6225 times.

Development of Tokyo as a hub had much to do with politics and geography.

After WWII, the US got broad traffic rights via Japan. Combine this with geography, Japan turned out to be a great gateway for broader Far East service.

Today with improved aircraft range and combined with growth in other Asian economies airlines especially United have focused on direct services that overfly Japan and thus has reshaped its Tokyo services to focus more on local demand, and connections to its new JV partner ANA.

Its a bit like US airline service intra-Europe. With the growth of smaller twin engine aircraft that made direct services possible, no longer was there a need to base a cadre of 727s there.

Regarding Guam - that is a whole other situation - the operation was launched in the 1960s by U.S. Trust Territory for it to have airline service. Continental became the partner in this venture, and the operation has successfully survived and actually thrived into a nice niche operation. I do recall from a CO earnings call a couple years back when the operation was termed profitable.

Topic: Are DL/UA Hubs In Asia And Europe viable/Profitable?
Username: steex
Posted 2013-02-16 19:01:45 and read 5972 times.

Quoting martinrpo1 (Thread starter):

DL has two hubs outside the United States: AMS and NRT. UA has hubs in GUM and NRT. How viable and profitable are these hubs?
Quoting mpdpilot (Reply 1):
DL also considers Paris de Gaulle a hub as well.

First off - you can pretty much disregard the DL hubs at AMS and CDG. These are hubs for the joint venture operation with AF/KL, and DL does certainly operate more TPAC capacity here because of it, but these aren't hubs in the typical sense. DL has very little invested there in terms of maintaining the bulk of the operation, it primarily consists of codeshares on partner metal.

I don't have a great answer for DL's NRT operation. Keeping the intra-Asia sectors full requires offering fares lower than its local competitors, and aside from that its connecting traffic that is by its very nature lower yielding than non-stop service from the USA would be. That makes it a difficult operation to manage, but DL seems to be constantly evaluating what service to offer and mostly satisfied at this point.

As previously mentioned, UA's hub at GUM is on American soil. I believe this hub does quite well given that there is a very high tourist demand between Japan and Guam, plus a healthy stream of military related traffic. They can also drive very high yields out of some of the routes they dominate to the Pacific islands.

Quoting carpethead (Reply 2):
NRT is a semi-hub with just one bank of few really spreadout flights.

NRT is a completely different animal for UA than DL at this point. UA has been fairly effective at overflying NRT where it can, allowing it to reduce its portfolio of lower yielding beyond-NRT flights. This naturally means that UA's flights between the USA and NRT have more of an O&D focus, which is typically higher yielding. I would guess they are generally satisfied with the performance of what they have there.

Quoting carpethead (Reply 2):
I think one can even book NRT-SGN one-stop via HKG on a 738.

You cannot book NRT-SGN on UA metal. Carriers from the USA do not have fifth freedom rights between NTR and SGN, so UA cannot sell tickets for that route (despite the fact that their schedules could theoretically allow it). This is also why DL failed so spectacularly on NRT-SGN, as it had to rely entirely on connections to/from the USA and they couldn't use local pax to fill up the plane.

Topic: RE: Are DL/UA Hubs In Asia And Europe Viable/Profitable?
Username: carpethead
Posted 2013-02-17 01:45:21 and read 5566 times.

Quoting steex (Reply 4):
You cannot book NRT-SGN on UA metal.

Thanks for clarifying. I guess Vietnam was not on the list of countries with fifth-freedom rights from Japan.

Topic: RE: Are DL/UA Hubs In Asia And Europe Viable/Profitable?
Username: toobz
Posted 2013-02-17 02:06:57 and read 5530 times.

Whatever anyone posts, is all speculation. Nobody knows. So take it with a grain of salt.

Topic: RE: Are DL/UA Hubs In Asia And Europe Viable/Profitable?
Username: factsonly
Posted 2013-02-17 02:10:31 and read 5520 times.

Quoting steex (Reply 4):
First off - you can pretty much disregard the DL hubs at AMS and CDG.

Lets take a closer look at DELTA's Summer 2013 operation at AMS to determine whether we can be this dismissive of the profitabiliity of DL's AF/KLM Joint Venture across the Atlantic.

This coming summer DL will operate 19x widebody departures from AMS. The airline is expanding its AMS operation significantly, not only with an additional daily B767 on JFK-AMS, but also by replacing B767 and A332 with larger capacity aircraft, as follows:

- B767 => A332 on ATL, BOS, BOM, DTW, MSP
- B767 => A333 on SEA
- A332 => A333 on ATL, MSP, PDX
- A332 => B777 on DTW

This results in the following DL operation in Summer 2013:

1 arr. 5:50 BOS DL 266 A333 Daily
2 arr. 5:55 DTW DL 252 A333 Daily
3 arr. 5:55 ATL DL 174 A332 Daily
4 arr. 6:00 JFK DL 205 B767 Daily
5 arr. 6:25 MSP DL 258 A333 Daily
6 arr. 7:00 BOM DL 49 A332 Daily
7 arr. 7:50 EWR DL 604 B767 Daily
8 arr. 8:05 DTW DL 619 A333 Daily
9 arr. 8:15 BOS DL 266 A332 Daily
10 dep. 8:15 DTW DL 251 A333 Daily
11 arr. 8:25 ATL DL 238 A333 Daily
12 arr. 8:30 SEA DL 232 A333 Daily
13 arr. 8:30 PDX DL 178 A332 Daily
14 dep. 9:00 ATL DL 175 A333 Daily
15 dep. 9:20 JFK DL 204 B767 Daily
16 arr. 9:40 DTW DL 234 A333 Daily
17 dep. 10:15 PDX DL 179 A332 Daily
18 arr. 10:15 JFK DL 70 B767 Daily
19 dep. 10:25 MSP DL 259 A333 Daily
20 dep. 10:30 SEA DL 233 A333 Daily
21 dep. 10:35 BOM DL 50 A332 Daily
22 dep. 10:35 JFK DL 71 B767 Daily
23 dep. 10:35 DTW DL 620 A333 Daily
24 arr. 10:40 MSP DL 264 A333 Daily
25 arr. 10:40 ATL DL 32 A333 Daily
26 dep. 11:05 ATL DL 239 A333 Daily
27 dep. 11:10 BOS DL 231 A333 Daily
28 arr. 11:35 DTW DL 248 A333 Daily
29 arr. 13:00 MSP DL 244 B777 Daily
30 arr. 13:00 SEA DL 153 A333 Daily
31 dep. 13:05 ATL DL 33 A333 Daily
32 dep. 13:05 EWR DL 35 B767 Daily
33 dep. 13:05 MSP DL 260 A332 Daily
34 dep. 13:20 DTW DL 235 A333 Daily
35 dep. 14:55 BOS DL 267 A332 Daily
36 dep. 14:55 SEA DL 152 A333 Daily
37 dep. 16:50 MSP DL 265 A333 Daily
38 dep. 17:10 DTW DL 249 B777 Daily

In addition to these DL metal operations, DL also codeshares extensively with KL and AF on European regional, Transatlantic (USA, Canada) and Middle East (CAI, DXB, DOH, AUH, MCT, KWI, DMM) and Africa (NBO, EBB, KGL, JRO, DAR, LOS, ACC, HRE, LUN, JNB, CPT)

some examples:

- dep. 09:50 Vienna DL 9282 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 09:50 Portland DL 0179 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 09:50 Los Angeles DL 9378 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 09:50 Copenhagen DL 9360 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 09:50 Rome DL 9579 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 09:55 Florence DL 6615 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 09:55 Aalborg DL 9481 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 09:55 Berlin Tegel DL 9571 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 09:55 Basle DL 9316 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:00 Strasbourg DL 8385 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:00 Kilimanjaro DL 9349 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:00 Dar Es Salaam DL 9349 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:00 Venice DL 9376 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:00 Bremen DL 9327 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:00 Dusseldorf DL 9553 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:05 Mumbai DL 0604 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:05 Barcelona DL 9602 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:05 Kigali DL 9318 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:05 Entebbe DL 9318 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:05 Doha DL 9313 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:05 Muscat DL 9313 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:05 Warsaw DL 9322 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:05 Durham Teesvall DL 9353 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:05 Bologna DL 9576 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:10 Johannesburg DL 9600 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:10 Houston DL 9386 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:10 Billund DL 9334 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:10 Birmingham DL 9296 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:10 Stuttgart DL 9567 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:15 London Heathrow DL 9642 Delta Air Lines

Topic: RE: Are DL/UA Hubs In Asia And Europe Viable/Profitable?
Username: jbmitt
Posted 2013-02-17 05:01:40 and read 5296 times.

Does Delta really have as many as 8 widebodies on the ground at AMS at the same time? I've seen pictures during the NW days of 4/5 near each other. Are they all on the same pier?

Topic: RE: Are DL/UA Hubs In Asia And Europe Viable/Profitable?
Username: factsonly
Posted 2013-02-17 05:11:48 and read 5263 times.

Mostly, Delta occupies gates at E Pier at AMS. Here are typical scenes of the West side of E pier and of the East side of E pier. Though these pictures were not taken simultaneously, it is the closest thing to reality I could find.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Karl Nixon
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Dan Miclea



and


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Maurits Vink




And if you are counting DL planes on ground, in Summer 2013 there will be 11x DL aircraft (6xA333, 2x B767, 3xA332) on E Pier simultaneously between 08.30 - 09.00am.

[Edited 2013-02-17 05:18:17]

Topic: RE: Are DL/UA Hubs In Asia And Europe Viable/Profitable?
Username: toobz
Posted 2013-02-17 06:05:52 and read 5135 times.

JB yes. There are more than 8 actually. They have a very nice operation there.

Topic: RE: Are DL/UA Hubs In Asia And Europe Viable/Profitable?
Username: Rara
Posted 2013-02-17 08:23:13 and read 4342 times.

Quoting factsonly (Reply 7):
Lets take a closer look at DELTA's Summer 2013 operation at AMS to determine whether we can be this dismissive of the profitabiliity of DL's AF/KLM Joint Venture across the Atlantic.

Profitability wasn't the point though, if I understood it correctly.

AMS may well be an important market for DL, and an important connection point to other Skyteam carriers, but I wouldn't really consider it a hub. A hub (as in hub-and-spoke) is an airport where passengers change aircraft to continue to their destination on the same carrier. In that respect, AMS is a hub for KL, because KL flies people from, say, HAM to CTU via AMS, but it isn't really a hub for DL because DL wouldn't fly people from ATL to BOS via AMS. You could say AMS is a major Skyteam hub (because it is), but it isn't really a DL hub.

I'm not sure whether NRT qualifies though.

Topic: RE: Are DL/UA Hubs In Asia And Europe Viable/Profitable?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-02-17 08:31:02 and read 4278 times.

Quoting carpethead (Reply 5):
I guess Vietnam was not on the list of countries with fifth-freedom rights from Japan.

IIRC, the fifth freedom rights from non-NRT Japan are much more liberal. I know the US-Vietnam billateral allows for fifth freedom for US carriers from non-NRT Japanese airports to SGN and other Vietnamese points, for instance.

Topic: RE: Are DL/UA Hubs In Asia And Europe Viable/Profitable?
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-02-17 08:37:48 and read 4234 times.

Delta continues on to BOM from AMS (so, just that 1 outbound spoke).
However, NRT is, most certainly, a hub for Delta. Delta continues on to many destinations beyond NRT using their own metal.

Topic: RE: Are DL/UA Hubs In Asia And Europe Viable/Profitable?
Username: ORDBOSEWR
Posted 2013-02-17 08:43:24 and read 4180 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 12):
Quoting carpethead (Reply 5):
I guess Vietnam was not on the list of countries with fifth-freedom rights from Japan.

IIRC, the fifth freedom rights from non-NRT Japan are much more liberal. I know the US-Vietnam billateral allows for fifth freedom for US carriers from non-NRT Japanese airports to SGN and other Vietnamese points, for instance.

This is why UA operates the HKG-SGN rather than NRT. UA has 2 real connections in HKG, SGN & SIN, both of which mentioned because of distance from US mainland.

Topic: RE: Are DL/UA Hubs In Asia And Europe Viable/Profitable?
Username: windowflyer
Posted 2013-02-17 08:48:02 and read 4140 times.

Snapped these on September 5th 2012. Spent a couple hours in the United lounge at NRT overlooking one of the runways. Seemed like every other aircraft movement was either United or Delta.

Topic: RE: Are DL/UA Hubs In Asia And Europe Viable/Profitable?
Username: factsonly
Posted 2013-02-17 09:00:09 and read 4049 times.

Quoting Rara (Reply 11):
You could say AMS is a major Skyteam hub (because it is), but it isn't really a DL hub.


Lets see what Delta themselves call these non-USA centers of operation.

This is Delta's own statement at the bottom of all of their Press Releases about its hubs:

'A founding member of the SkyTeam global alliance, Delta participates in the industry's leading trans-Atlantic joint venture with Air France-KLM and Alitalia. Including its worldwide alliance partners, Delta offers customers more than 13,000 daily flights, with hubs in:
- Amsterdam,
- Atlanta,
- Cincinnati,
- Detroit,
- Memphis,
- Minneapolis-St. Paul,
- New York-LaGuardia,
- New York-JFK,
- Paris-Charles de Gaulle,
- Salt Lake City
- and Tokyo-Narita.

If the airline calls it a hub, who are we to say it is not!

Topic: RE: Are DL/UA Hubs In Asia And Europe Viable/Profitable?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2013-02-17 09:05:25 and read 4020 times.

It's hard to compare AMS and CDG with NRT for either airline. AMS and CDG are hubs that are a new breed (or at least I can't think of anything like it ever occurring.) NRT, at least for DL, exists on its own and isn't really dependent on anyone else. DL at AMS and CDG would be a soup sandwich without AF/KL... they'd desperately be missing the feed needed to make the routes work, and many of the cities DL does serve aren't the big markets out of AF/KL... in a vacuum, I'd daresay some of them are random. DL with its lower costs and 767-300s can make some routes work viably that AF/KL can't and on the flip side, AF/KL can provide A380s on heavy routes that DL obviously can't without A380s.

I see CDG and AMS surviving long term, and I see UA keeping NRT with ANA. DL at NRT I can see eventually dying out, being replaced by more point to point. If this does happen, I still think DL will have many flights to NRT, it just wouldn't be a true hub


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