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Topic: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: ryanrap1
Posted 2013-01-18 10:49:24 and read 19139 times.

I know many people are skeptical about Frontiers decision on TTN but I was looking at some of the routes and loads from there website and a lot of the lfights look almost completely full. I know a full plane does not equal profit however it appears people are interested! I really hope this works for Frontier!

Topic: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: stlgph
Posted 2013-01-18 10:57:43 and read 19122 times.

Looking forward to New Jersey-inspired tails.

http://www.njfishandwildlife.com/pdf/wildcolor.pdf

Topic: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: point2point
Posted 2013-01-18 11:09:46 and read 19049 times.

I think that if F9 and TTN do some basic economics, and give a good guestimate as to how many pax in the area will be willing to use F9 and TTN (rather than drive to PHI or EWR) and to what destinations these pax are willing to pay X amount of $ to get there, then this definitely has a good chance to succeed. I would imagine that there is a lot of solid data out there available for both F9 and TTN to mine, and if an equilibrium is achieved so that the pax, airport and airline are happy with the results, possibilities are certainly there.

Basic economics here....... this is where it all starts.

And all the best to TTN, F9, an the folks in the area.......


 

Topic: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-18 14:28:21 and read 18690 times.

Quoting ryanrap1 (Thread starter):
I was looking at some of the routes and loads from there website and a lot of the lfights look almost completely full

A true test will be after the TTN introductory fares expire. It appears F9 may have found a niche at TTN/Princeton roughly halfway between Philly and NYC. I'm not yet convinced about the 6X weekly ATL service; but maybe. I think to much capacity to soon.

F9 also needs to put into place a means to to grab some of the fliers in a 40-60 mile radius around the TTN airport. Cheap fares in a ULCC model or undercutting other carriers at PHL and EWR is not the sole answer.

In the late 90's early 20XX F9 used motor coach service to move passengers from DEN to the ski slopes and if memory serves me to a park and ride or sporting venue. In the TTN corridor I think the high frequency mega bus might just fit neatly if they can negotiate a deviation or add a second stop at the airport. Because mega bus does not yet offer service from Philly to Princeton it allows them to test the market for potential future service.

F9 needs to find an economical marketing platform such as using the Interstate state-line visitor welcome stations with a state specific brochure showing all of the service offered in that state. Thousands of motorist use these resources daily. Illuminated signage marketing the F9 brand hanging on a wall at the welcome centers would also be economical advertising. It would stick in my memory.

Quoting stlgph (Reply 1):
Looking forward to New Jersey-inspired tails.

Although not specifically native to New Jersey. I was thinking about the Chesapeake Bay blue crab. With all of the Florida flying a Manatee can't be to far away.

Topic: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: NKOPS
Posted 2013-01-18 15:03:07 and read 18578 times.

Quoting stlgph (Reply 1):
Looking forward to New Jersey-inspired tails.

Greenheads and mosquitoes??

Topic: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-18 15:07:01 and read 18576 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 3):
I'm not yet convinced about the 6X weekly ATL service; but maybe. I think to much capacity to soon.

I think Frontier probably agrees with you - TTN-ATL is 4 x weekly.  

mariner

Topic: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: PHLBOS
Posted 2013-01-18 15:15:53 and read 18546 times.

I've always stated for years that an airport like TTN needs a mainstream LFC to come in.

Previous carriers were either small Johnny Come Latelys that don't survive for too long or commuter/regional affiliates to legacy carriers w/sky-high fares.

That said, F9 coming to TTN makes perfect sense.

Topic: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-18 15:25:24 and read 18508 times.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 6):
That said, F9 coming to TTN makes perfect sense.

One puzzle I have is with the Trenton Takes Off Sweepstakes:

http://planetprinceton.com/2013/01/1...ces-trenton-takes-off-sweepstakes/

"Frontier Airlines today announced a sweepstakes for people who live in the Princeton and Trenton area and travel through Trenton-Mercer Airport. The sweepstakes, which runs through May 31, will award weekly and monthly prizes, as well as a grand prize in May. Participants can enter the sweepstakes by registering at the Frontier Airlines website. No purchase is necessary to enter.

One grand prize winner will be selected on June 1 to receive a dozen round-trip flights out of Trenton-Mercer Airport for a year. Sweepstakes participants must be 18 years or older. Resident of Delaware, New Jersey and Pennsylvania are eligible to enter."


I had not thought of Delaware as being in the TTN catchment area - I thought it would be much closer to PHL - but may it's just my sense of geography?

mariner

Topic: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: ScottB
Posted 2013-01-18 15:31:10 and read 18483 times.

Quoting stlgph (Reply 1):
Looking forward to New Jersey-inspired tails.

There's a joke about Snooki & JWoww's rear ends in there somewhere...   

Topic: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: DiamondFlyer
Posted 2013-01-18 15:38:19 and read 18449 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 8):
There's a joke about Snooki & JWoww's rear ends in there somewhere.

They'd need to pick up an A380 to get them both on the tail.

-DiamondFlyer

Topic: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: PHLBOS
Posted 2013-01-18 16:33:42 and read 18346 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 7):
I had not thought of Delaware as being in the TTN catchment area - I thought it would be much closer to PHL - but may it's just my sense of geography?

While PHL is closer to Delaware (it's only 11-12 miles from the State Line via I-95); if the the fare at PHL's high enough to cancel out any extra gas spent to head further north in West Trenton (where TTN is actually located), then it is indeed an option for somebody living in northern Delaware.

Not all of F9's nonstop routes out of TTN have LFC competition out of PHL.

[Edited 2013-01-18 16:34:05]

Topic: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-18 16:57:28 and read 18271 times.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 10):
Not all of F9's nonstop routes out of TTN have LFC competition out of PHL.

Starting with CMH - I was surprised to see that. It made sense of some of Frontier's choices.

Thanks.

mariner

Topic: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-18 17:33:08 and read 18175 times.

Borrowed from the Frontier's New TTN Cities thread.

TTN-MDW starts April 8, 2013 and is 6X weekly ex Saturday
TTN-ATL starts April 8, 2013 and is 4X Weekly (Mon,Wed, Fri, Sat)
TTN-DTW starts Apirl 9, 2013 and is 4X Weekly (Sun, Tue, Thur, Fri)
TTN-CMH Starts April 8, 2013 and is 3X Weekly (Sun, Mon, Thur)
TTN-RDU Starts April 8, 2013 and is 6X Weekly ex Saturday

Quoting mariner (Reply 5):
TTN-ATL is 4 x weekly.

Thanks for keeping me in   

Have we figured out any commonality which ties or would justify 6x weekly TTN-RDU service. Obviously F9 sees something. That region of N.C. is referred to as the triangle region encompassing Raleigh, Durham and Chapel Hill; all college towns. I suppose TTN will soon have access to good North Carolina BBQ.

Topic: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-18 18:09:44 and read 18106 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 12):
Have we figured out any commonality which ties or would justify 6x weekly TTN-RDU service.

See above.

When Southwest ends RDU-PHL in March (2 x daily), there will be no LCC service RDU-PHL/EWR. The nearest would be JetBlue's RDU-JFK.

I suppose some will say that Southwest ending the route isn't a good sign, but I think that's more about Southwest at PHL - it's cut a bunch of stuff there, including all of New England.

http://blogs.wickedlocal.com/massmar...and-to-philadelphia/#axzz2INoxI6DV

"Southwest Airlines drops all flights out of New England to Philadelphia"

New England. Hmmmmm.  

mariner

Topic: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: rampart
Posted 2013-01-18 18:12:31 and read 18095 times.

Quoting stlgph (Reply 1):
Looking forward to New Jersey-inspired tails.
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 3):

Although not specifically native to New Jersey. I was thinking about the Chesapeake Bay blue crab. With all of the Florida flying a Manatee can't be to far away.

How about a horseshoe crab? Not terribly photogenic, but funny.


Or maybe a shad.


 
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 3):
In the late 90's early 20XX F9 used motor coach service to move passengers from DEN to the ski slopes and if memory serves me to a park and ride or sporting venue. In the TTN corridor I think the high frequency mega bus might just fit neatly if they can negotiate a deviation or add a second stop at the airport. Because mega bus does not yet offer service from Philly to Princeton it allows them to test the market for potential future service.

America West did this to a couple locations in the Phoenix area, such as Scottsdale. I think Frontier 1.0 did it to Boulder once upon a time.

Quoting mariner (Reply 7):
I had not thought of Delaware as being in the TTN catchment area - I thought it would be much closer to PHL - but may it's just my sense of geography?

Fairly direct up I-295, no tolls, and faster than the parallel NJ Turnpike from my experience.

-Rampart

Topic: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: Flytravel
Posted 2013-01-18 18:30:50 and read 18057 times.

Quoting rampart (Reply 14):
Fairly direct up I-295, no tolls, and faster than the parallel NJ Turnpike from my experience.

-Rampart

There is the Delaware Mem. Bridge toll on the return using I-295. No toll on I-95 though between No. Delaware and TTN.

Topic: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: rampart
Posted 2013-01-18 18:43:30 and read 18026 times.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 15):
There is the Delaware Mem. Bridge toll on the return using I-295. No toll on I-95 though between No. Delaware and TTN.

I forgot the bridge, thanks! Everyone has to pay to leave NJ, but it's free to get into NJ. To bastardize The Eagles, you can check out any time you want, but you can never leave.   As for I-95, I think of going through Philly and NE Philly with more traffic.

Topic: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: Flytravel
Posted 2013-01-18 19:29:54 and read 17929 times.

Along with free parking, most of TTN's suburban catchment can reach TTN without tolls:

NJ: Mercer, Middlesex, Somerset, Hunterdon, Burlington, Camden, Gloucester, Monmouth, Ocean
PA: Philadelphia, Delaware Co.
DE: New Castle

Montgomery and Bucks Co. PA might need to take PA Turnpike but the drive is tolerable and typically less traffic than a drive to PHL. Some might fly into TTN to reach NYC or AC which has tolls to deal with though.

Topic: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-01-18 19:33:13 and read 17917 times.

I think Florida will do ok. But not the others.

Topic: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: PHLwok
Posted 2013-01-18 20:07:36 and read 17859 times.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 10):
While PHL is closer to Delaware (it's only 11-12 miles from the State Line via I-95); if the the fare at PHL's high enough to cancel out any extra gas spent to head further north in West Trenton (where TTN is actually located), then it is indeed an option for somebody living in northern Delaware.

As someone who lives a few miles on the Delaware side of the DE/PA border, this certainly isn't a drive I'd look forward to during or within a few hours of rush hour. I dread the commutes to my clients up in Princeton. There are several choke points along 95, and 295 has problems of its own between route 42 and the Mt Laurel area. FWIW I haven't seen any F9 advertising down this way either. I can usually get to PHL in about 20 min, 25 min if I use PA 291 as an alternate due to traffic, whereas it's about 1 hr 20 min to TTN with no traffic, which would be unusual. There would have to be a huge price difference to not only make the extra gas worth it, but the additional time.

Quoting rampart (Reply 16):
I forgot the bridge, thanks! Everyone has to pay to leave NJ, but it's free to get into NJ. To bastardize The Eagles, you can check out any time you want, but you can never leave.

There are plenty of jokes in the reason about this  

Topic: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: F9animal
Posted 2013-01-18 20:37:31 and read 17804 times.

I just hope F9 plants itself and maintains service for a decent amount of time before pulling plugs. The market seems good. I just fear that F9 will go 3 months, and start pulling routes.

As for the bus idea... Boltbus was trying to work with Bellingham Airport to get a stop at the airport. The CEO of Bolt told me the airport top dogs would not return phone calls, and didnt seem interested. I suggested he contact Allegiant, but never heard anything else. Bolt has several buses running out of Seattle to Vancouver now, and noticed Bellingham has started. Maybe Boltbus should have a look at TTN?

Topic: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: IllinoisMan
Posted 2013-01-18 20:43:49 and read 17793 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 18):
think Florida will do ok. But not the others.
Quoting F9animal (Reply 20):
I just fear that F9 will go 3 months, and start pulling routes.

Remember when the COS routes were announced and everyone started jumping for joy thinking it was going to be the next big thing for F9? Well, its only been a year and already they've folded up the tents over there. Let's see how many of these TTN routes remain come next April.

Topic: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-18 20:53:46 and read 17774 times.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 20):
I just hope F9 plants itself and maintains service for a decent amount of time before pulling plugs.

It's really up to the good folk of New Jersey, F9, all the airline can do is offer.

It's the oldest rule in the book - use it or lose it.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: kgaiflyer
Posted 2013-01-19 07:16:59 and read 16668 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 3):
F9 also needs to put into place a means to to grab some of the fliers in a 40-60 mile radius around the TTN airport. Cheap fares in a ULCC model or undercutting other carriers at PHL and EWR is not the sole answer.
Quoting mariner (Reply 22):
It's really up to the good folk of New Jersey,

Three other factors --

(1) PHL is on the southern border of Philadelphia, making folks from the northern suburbs (TTN's location) need to leave the day before to catch a flight because of Philadelphia's gridlock.

(2) The Pennsylvania Turnpike, the New Jersey Turnpike, I-95, I-195, and I-295 all feed traffic into the Trenton area making it easier to reach.

(3) Previous airlines at TTN were leisure-oriented and really didn't connect to anything.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: alphascan
Posted 2013-01-19 07:57:59 and read 16526 times.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 23):
Previous airlines at TTN were leisure-oriented and really didn't connect to anything.

F9 is leisure orientated and really doesn't connect to anything from TTN.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: rampart
Posted 2013-01-19 08:39:47 and read 16614 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 22):
Quoting F9animal (Reply 20):
I just hope F9 plants itself and maintains service for a decent amount of time before pulling plugs.

It's really up to the good folk of New Jersey, F9, all the airline can do is offer.

It's the oldest rule in the book - use it or lose it.

I wish they had the financial and fleet latitude to be able to develop a route to profitability, and not drop in less than a year. In the example of COS, I wonder what the revenue was like for the different new routes. Were they profitable, but not too much? Were they nearly profitable and possibly trending up? I was just in COS, F9 prominently advertising within the terminal and billboards around town, all advertising the new routes which were JUST cancelled, front page news in the paper. TTN does not deserve a similar fate. If I could wish F9 something, it would be for solid staying power, which entails some commitment and consistency from the company. I would think a full year would be a minimum to try to figure that out.

-Rampart

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: rduddji
Posted 2013-01-19 08:49:51 and read 16546 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 12):

Have we figured out any commonality which ties or would justify 6x weekly TTN-RDU service. Obviously F9 sees something.

There's quite a bit of pharmaceutical traffic between PHL-RDU. It's been served by at least 4 different airlines in the past 12 years. I'm not very familiar with the PHL region, but perhaps F9 is getting their feet wet to see if they can capture any of that traffic from TTN. I don't think pharmacor is a very price sensitive group, so I think F9 will have an uphill battle.

Quoting mariner (Reply 13):
I suppose some will say that Southwest ending the route isn't a good sign, but I think that's more about Southwest at PHL - it's cut a bunch of stuff there, including all of New England.

For years WN avoided airports with chronic delays. When they announced their large op at PHL, I figured it wouldn't last, however, I was just beginning to think they'd proved me wrong when they began their pull down over a year ago.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-19 08:50:48 and read 16722 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 13):
New England. Hmmmmm.

With WN PHL-PVD pull back I wonder if TTN-PVD might just be on radar. PVD is my favoritie airport when I travel to the greater Boston area; although I-95 needs a lot of work around Warwick to the Mass state line. Some of the potholes could break an axle. Rental cars also cost roughly half in PVD when compared to BOS on or off the airport.

I think TTN-PWM might be another niche market at least seasonally. The water front/wharf and foodie circuit is less than five miles from the airport

Quoting PHLwok (Reply 19):
There would have to be a huge price difference to not only make the extra gas worth it,

Those who decide to drive (park and fly) should be able to use TTN free parking. The least expensive local long term parking I can take advantage of off terminal is $8.00 per day which involves a shuttle bus transport to the terminal; $24 or more per day on terminal.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 23):
(1) PHL is on the southern border of Philadelphia, making folks from the northern suburbs (TTN's location) need to leave the day before to catch a flight because of Philadelphia's gridlock.

And this may be the reason the mega-bus or any other commercial transporter has not yet established Philly-Princeton service. I wonder if Amtrak would be an option at the wrong time of day? (or is that all day) www.amtrak.com shows two stops in Philly and fares without any sort of discounts in a range from $28 to $39 from the 30th street stop and $28 from the north-side stop to Trenton. F9 might consider negotiating a contract or a special arrangement which would mirror validating any cost between the Trenton/Princeton transit stop and the airport for a ticketed passengers.

As time allows I may take a look at all of the F9 flight departure times out of TTN to every city the fly from TTN. I find it hard to believe a flyer would have to travel to Trenton the day prior. When I'm home I live 55 miles from the BNA airport. The earliest I've ever walked out of the house for the hour drive to the airport is 4:00 AM to drive the 55 miles to catch a 6:05 AM flight. Of course there is little road traffic and little to no TSA backlog as BNA wakes up.

I go back to a visit in BCN several years ago where after flying all night I had to take a cab to a train station and change trains twice ride the rail twice for 70 km and thereafter switch over to another car for an additional 25 km drive. I looked at it as a since of adventure. Ironically I made friends with a group of firefighters from Hoboken N.J. who visited the region annually.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2013-01-19 09:14:18 and read 16637 times.

Cos- the airport I really thought had potential and flights were full. I dont want ttn to end same

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-19 10:11:56 and read 16487 times.

Quoting rampart (Reply 25):
I wish they had the financial and fleet latitude to be able to develop a route to profitability, and not drop in less than a year. In the example of COS, I wonder what the revenue was like for the different new routes. Were they profitable, but not too much?

I had fairly high hopes for COS, too, but began to worry about it quite early in the process - the bookings didn't look that exciting.

There are reasons why Westpac left COS - planes were full at low fares but Westpac couldn't get a premium over DEN so it did the obvious and moved to DEN.

The evidence would suggest COS is not a distinct market form DEN and with the E190's are going away, Frontier does not believe that COS can support the A319 on DEN-COS.

TTN is a distinct market and there are some very low intro fares. But also on two of the first three Friday MSY flights, for example, some of the highest one way fares in Frontier's entire network, on flights are are almost full.

Given an intensely constrained fleet, I know where I'd put the aircraft.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-19 10:20:07]

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-19 11:36:50 and read 16285 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 13):
I think that's more about Southwest at PHL - it's cut a bunch of stuff there, including all of New England.

http://blogs.wickedlocal.com/massmar...and-to-philadelphia/#axzz2INoxI6DV

"Southwest Airlines drops all flights out of New England to Philadelphia"

New England. Hmmmmm.

The wickedlocal writer failed to mention the FL subsidiary will continue to fly PHL-BOS. It also looks like FL will continue to fly the PHL-RDU http://airtran.innosked.com/%28S%28m...qzlk45b4zxs1v3%29%29/Default.aspx. The exception being FL currently charges luggage fees.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-19 11:42:34 and read 16285 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 30):
It also looks like FL will continue to fly the PHL-RDU

I just tried to book RDU-PHL in March and April on the Airtran website, and couldn't find a non-stop - only through ATL.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-19 12:23:30]

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-19 14:06:21 and read 16168 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 31):
I just tried to book RDU-PHL
Quoting mariner (Reply 31):
and couldn't find a non-stop - only through ATL.

Price would ultimately be the deciding factor if I would fly PHL-ATL-RDU with a TTN-RDU option. Driving would take 8-10 hours. I didn't look at specific flight times or schedules just lines on the route map.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: Sligo
Posted 2013-01-19 14:16:42 and read 16160 times.

Quoting alphascan (Reply 24):
F9 is leisure orientated

As mariner can attest to : ) ....Im having trouble swallowing this.

It's just a plane and it flies a schedule....there's nothing inherent about F9 that would make it abhorrent to business travelers. Business travelers want to fly non-stop, they want sufficient frequency and of course price elaticity is still there to a lesser extent.

If F9 is flying 3x on biz days at fares equal to EWR/PHL and you're flying non-stop to the markets that matter, then biz travelers who could avoid an hour ride to EWR will be throwing away their UA status and its +/- 30% upgrade chances down the toilet.

This isnt like F9s other experiments in big markets where they had to cherry-pick and thus were stifled from building a relationship with the business community; F9 has stumbled upon a truly differentiated product and can be alone in the market serving a host of markets; MDW/ATL/BOS/RDU/etc. etc. F9 also doesnt have a reputaton of any sort to contend with. If the stats show that 3x a day to MDW (or any other business market) can keep higher yielding business flying from the airport they'd prefer to fly to...and F9 makes the commitment to that kind of frequency and it works, then viola; F9 will be a business airline as far as this 2-4 million person catchment is concerned.



[Edited 2013-01-19 14:22:02]

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-19 14:17:52 and read 16154 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 32):
Price would ultimately be the deciding factor if I would fly PHL-ATL-RDU with a TTN-RDU option. Driving would take 8-10 hours. I didn't look at specific flight times or schedules just lines on the route map.

It seems they are misleading. Airtran has - or had - those lines on the map for RDU-BOS, but when I checked the flights, it was the same story as RDU-PHL - no non-stops, or none that I was offered. Only RDU-ATL-BOS.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-19 14:28:15]

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: PHLwok
Posted 2013-01-19 14:59:04 and read 16116 times.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 23):
PHL is on the southern border of Philadelphia, making folks from the northern suburbs (TTN's location) need to leave the day before to catch a flight because of Philadelphia's gridlock.

Sorry, but that's simply not true. Folks drive to PHL from the northern suburbs all the time, and unless you have perhaps a 5:30 am flight and want to sleep in as long as possible and live a good ways away, there is absolutely no need to stay overnight near the airport. Maybe if you were driving from Scranton, but then you'd probably just fly out of AVP anyway and connect.

Quoting rduddji (Reply 26):
There's quite a bit of pharmaceutical traffic between PHL-RDU. It's been served by at least 4 different airlines in the past 12 years. I'm not very familiar with the PHL region, but perhaps F9 is getting their feet wet to see if they can capture any of that traffic from TTN. I don't think pharmacor is a very price sensitive group, so I think F9 will have an uphill battle.

PHL/EWR-RDU can be day tripped, which can be very useful for business traveler and drives some of the frequencies you see into there. F9 will need this frequency to be a plausible contender.

There is plenty of pharma in the Philly area as well as the Princeton corridor, and there is plenty of other business traffic between the two cities as well.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 27):
Those who decide to drive (park and fly) should be able to use TTN free parking. The least expensive local long term parking I can take advantage of off terminal is $8.00 per day which involves a shuttle bus transport to the terminal; $24 or more per day on terminal.

$8/day is about right for PHL off airport parking. Max is $20/day in the garages (more in short term, but you're not allowed to park overnight there). The garages often fill by midweek, so that price point clearly isn't driving off demand, much of it tied to business travel where it's reimbursable.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-19 14:59:23 and read 16124 times.

Quoting Sligo (Reply 33):
It's just a plane and it flies a schedule....there's nothing inherent about F9 that would make it abhorrent to business travelers.

Frontier isn't abhorrent to business travellers - many do fly Frontier (just as a fair number fly Allegiant) especially on routes such as DEN-DCA.

The difference is that the schedules are not opitmized for business travel - and that involves frequency.

The often maligned Republic CEO Bedford got it spot-on right, as with so many things, when he said that Frontier is a leisure airline and Midwest is (was) a business airline, and it was tough to marry the two.

It is a CW that business travellers demand frequency - but every time Frontier has tried that it hasn't worked, and since that umbilical cord was cut Frontier's financial position has improved dramatically.

Quoting Sligo (Reply 33):
If the stats show that 3x a day to MDW (or any other business market) can keep higher yielding business flying from the airport they'd prefer to fly to...and F9 makes the commitment to that kind of frequency and it works, then viola; F9 will be a business airline as far as this 2-4 million person catchment is concerned.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. If the actual stats, as in bums on seats, show that TTN-MDW can support more frequency, then it may happen.

But we have yet to find out if TTN-MDW will support 6 x weekly, and if so, can it support that through winter?

Daniel Shurz on TTN:

http://articles.philly.com/2013-01-1...ort-frontier-airlines-daniel-shurz

"It's very much targeted to leisure customers"

Hindsight tells us that Frontier "should have known" that the leisure TTN-MCO could support 4 x weekly, but when it was first announced (as 2 x weekly) many said it would never last.

It's all theory at the moment, no one actually knows, and it's part of the fun of TTN for me.  

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-19 15:05:55]

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: rampart
Posted 2013-01-19 15:56:41 and read 16059 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 29):
The evidence would suggest COS is not a distinct market form DEN and with the E190's are going away, Frontier does not believe that COS can support the A319 on DEN-COS.

TTN is a distinct market and there are some very low intro fares. But also on two of the first three Friday MSY flights, for example, some of the highest one way fares in Frontier's entire network, on flights are are almost full.

I've thought of COS and DEN as the same market for some time. Otherwise, Denver is one of the largest metro areas in the nation served by only 1 airport. The bleed from COS to DEN is considerable, proof enough. As with any large metro area with a choice of airports, there is supposed to be some semblance of reverse bleed, and that used to be the case for places like BUR, ONT, ISP, MHT, and HPN, and COS in the WP days. Though, the trend over the last decade for alternate airports is a net loss. I would disagree that TTN is its own market, however. By definition, without continuous service, the Trenton-Princeton market has to go elsewhere to fly (unlike COS, or BUR, or MHT, which do have continuous and relatively good service). I think TTN can serve as a reasonable alternate market to Philadelphia metro and part of northern NJ metro, as well as itself. But I thought that about COS, too.

-Rampart

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-19 16:38:03 and read 16021 times.

Quoting rampart (Reply 37):
I would disagree that TTN is its own market, however

By "distinct market" - I meant for Frontier.

TTN is a distinct market, separate from DEN or its environs, which would include COS, or even FNL and maybe PUB. Frontier pax can easily drive from COS to DEN for a Frontier flight to anywhere in the system.

Frontier has no other base/focus city/hub in the north east, and the markets from TTN are independent of what is available at DEN.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-19 18:59:54 and read 15901 times.

Quoting rampart (Reply 14):
I think Frontier 1.0 did it to Boulder once upon a time.

That may be what I was thinking about. In my mind it was more than five years ago but less than ten years. I want to say it was in the Jeff Potter era.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: STT757
Posted 2013-01-19 19:27:31 and read 15860 times.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 17):
Montgomery and Bucks Co. PA might need to take PA Turnpike but the drive is tolerable and typically less traffic than a drive to PHL.

They can take Route 1 or 95 without paying tolls.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-19 22:18:45 and read 15766 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 40):

They can take Route 1 or 95 without paying tolls.

Via Rt 1 they would have to make a small diverson and take the toll-free lower trenton Bridge (aka the Trenton Makes the World Takes Bridge) westbound or pay a reasonable $1 toll to use the Trenton-Morrisville Rt 1 Bridge.

As Seen on the pilot for the FOX TV show House

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-20 03:25:51 and read 15703 times.

New Article about the convience of Trenton Mercer Airport from the Philadelphia Inquirer

Trenton-Mercer: A hassle free airport
http://www.philly.com/philly/business/20130120_Air_Travel_For_All.html

Interesting quote: I guess we can add TTN to the list of airports with PFCs

"The county will make other capital improvements, including outfitting a restaurant, with revenue from passenger-facility charges, jet-fuel sales, and landing and other fees, "based on Frontier's needs and the number of people who come through the door," Hughes said. (Mercer County Executive Brian M. Hughes)

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: rampart
Posted 2013-01-20 05:09:08 and read 15658 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 39):

That may be what I was thinking about. In my mind it was more than five years ago but less than ten years. I want to say it was in the Jeff Potter era.

Try 20 years. I was thinking of the pre-1995 version of Frontier, the original "local service" airline. I found a 1983 route map on DepartedFlights.com that shows the bus service from DEN to Boulder (Hilton Hotel) and Fort Collins (Ramada Inn). Apparently this only happened in 1983.

http://www.departedflights.com/FL060183.html

Side note: I find it amazing the number of small cities that sustained 737 service. Good times.

-Rampart

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: STT757
Posted 2013-01-20 07:13:52 and read 15573 times.

Drove out to Lancaster yesterday to go outlet shopping, there were Frontier signs promoting TTN all along the way as far out as Norristown. I think it's got a legit chance to work out in the long run, something like WN at ISP or NK at ACY.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-20 07:45:32 and read 15548 times.

Quoting rampart (Reply 43):

This may be what I was thinking about http://media.flyfrontier.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=4813 slightly more than ten years ago..

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: rampart
Posted 2013-01-20 07:58:11 and read 15515 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 45):
This may be what I was thinking about http://media.flyfrontier.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=4813 slightly more than ten years ago.

Ah, OK. Wasn't aware of that one. At that time, F9 still had management from the earlier Frontier (FL), I think?

It's hard looking back, what F9 was at it's apex.

-Rampart

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-20 08:43:04 and read 15465 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 42):

Nice article; thanks for posting. Several events are mentioned in Florida. I checked a couple of other markets including TTN-MSY. Using two random days in early February the ITA software http://matrix.itasoftware.comview/fl...e1a868-0cc3-4206-8c89-45dd6fedfbd5

F9 round trip non-stop flight TTN-MSY still populates for $108.00 and is actually doable as a same day trip. For those with a sense of adventure and a little expendable income. It could be the perfect lunch or gambling flight. F9 flight arrives in MSY at 10:05 A.M. and departs back to TTN at 5:05 P.M arriving in TTN shortly after 8:00 P.M.

For a $108.00 r/t I'd fly down just to bring a cooler of fresh Gulf seafood back. The fish and seafood mongers in the TTN area are foolish if they don't do the same. I know NYC has good seafood and has one of the worlds largest wholesale operations. But how could one not take advantage of the MSY opportunity at least until the intro fares expire. F9 might want to consider marketing the MSY flight for that very reason.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-20 10:03:26 and read 15424 times.

Quoting rampart (Reply 25):
In the example of COS, I wonder what the revenue was like for the different new routes. Were they profitable, but not too much? Were they nearly profitable and possibly trending up?

This article in the Gazette gives quite a lot of information about what happened at COS - although obviously not actual profit/loss figures:

http://www.gazette.com/articles/fron...ier-149910-elsewhere-airlines.html

"Frontier Airlines short-lived “focus city” experiment in Colorado Springs failed because the Denver-based carrier underestimated how willing local passengers are to drive to Denver for a wide selection of inexpensive flights, the experiment’s architect says.

Daniel Shurz talks about each of the routes and what happened. It isn't entirely a lost cause - PHX stays at 6 x weekly, and LAX retains service (3x) at least through the summer.

But it keeps coming back to the essential point - the public appetite for low fares and I assume that partly helps to explain the immediate reaction to TTN:

"“The challenge is that the market knows there is high-frequency, low-fare service to virtually any market of significant size from Denver,” Shurz said. “We know there is healthy demand — Colorado Springs is large enough to generate that demand, but when you compare multiple daily flights in Denver to several flights a week from Colorado Springs, it turned out to be more of a challenge than we thought. At times when demand was high, we could get the fares where they were economically viable, but the trick is not doing it in July, it is doing it in enough months to generate a profit.”

It's a good read.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-20 10:04:02]

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: PHLBOS
Posted 2013-01-20 13:09:43 and read 15307 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 13):


http://blogs.wickedlocal.com/massmar...and-to-philadelphia/#axzz2INoxI6DV

"Southwest Airlines drops all flights out of New England to Philadelphia"

It's worth noting (and you likely already know this, but for those that don't) that the above-posted blog entry is from last year.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 27):
I wonder if Amtrak would be an option at the wrong time of day? (or is that all day) www.amtrak.com shows two stops in Philly and fares without any sort of discounts in a range from $28 to $39 from the 30th street stop and $28 from the north-side stop to Trenton

Some clarification is needed here. TTN is actually located in West Trenton and not the City of Trenton itself. So unless there's a bus service from either NJ Transit or the agency running TTN itself; Amtrak may not help someone in doing a PHL-TTN link. However, (as mentioned in the previous F9-TTN thread) SEPTA does have the West Trenton line which links Center City to the West Trenton stop, which is about 1 mile from TTN; close enough for TTN officials to operate a shuttle bus service from the train station to the airport if it wanted to.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 30):
The wickedlocal writer failed to mention the FL subsidiary will continue to fly PHL-BOS.

   FL hasn't flown PHL-BOS since early Nov. 2007 and WN itself dropped all of its PHL-New England routes just over a year ago. Addiitonally, B6 isn't starting PHL-BOS until this May 23; so US, for now, has no competition on this route. While one could do a PHL-EWR-BOS itinerary via UA, there may not be a major difference in airfare and the overall travel time (including connection layover) would likely be not that much shorter than driving.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 41):
Via Rt 1 they would have to make a small diverson and take the toll-free lower trenton Bridge (aka the Trenton Makes the World Takes Bridge) westbound or pay a reasonable $1 toll to use the Trenton-Morrisville Rt 1 Bridge.

Not that much of a big deal. Since TTN is adjacent to I-95 vs. US 1 (the latter goes into the City of Trenton itself), somebody using US 1 from either Northeast Philly or Lower Bucks County can simply connect to I-95 near Langhorne (I-95's Exit 46).

Quoting PHLwok (Reply 35):
Sorry, but that's simply not true. Folks drive to PHL from the northern suburbs all the time, and unless you have perhaps a 5:30 am flight and want to sleep in as long as possible and live a good ways away, there is absolutely no need to stay overnight near the airport.

   While I-95 from Center City to Northeast Philly does indeed have its typical rush-hour jams (southbound AM/northbound PM); off-peak travel is usually not a prblem unless there's an accident or construction-related lane closure... both of which can cause a jam on any highway at anytime.

BTW, TTN is only a 43-mile drive from PHL via I-95; less than a one-hour drive (non-rush-hour).

[Edited 2013-01-20 13:30:53]

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-20 14:35:41 and read 15229 times.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 49):
FL hasn't flown PHL-BOS since early Nov. 2007

My apology for the misinformation I was looking at FL route map yesterday and saw the connection. I did not look at specific flights. Another travel website I favor also shows the flight as plausible but not economical on FL with a PHL-ATL-BOS routing. Not that anybody in their right mind would fly it at over 2K.

I also learned US apparently no longer appears to fly the route either. In the mid eighties I use to fly BOS-PHL-BNA without a change of aircraft offered by US and long before CLT came to fruition.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-20 15:03:40 and read 15209 times.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 49):
It's worth noting (and you likely already know this, but for those that don't) that the above-posted blog entry is from last year.

Yes.

But it's interesting because it says something about Southwest at PHL - which appeals to my sense of irony and of metaphor.

The present Frontier CEO, the man responsible for the massive and complex restructure, is Dave Siegel. When he was at US Airways and Southwest announced PHL, Siegel made the notorious comment - "they're coming to kill us."

Southwest hasn't killed US at PHL, but PHL has hardly been a scorched earth triumph for Southwest. And that statement, it itself, didn't kill Siegel's career at US - but it is the thing he is most remembered for and it surely didn't help. He was kicked out, not long after.

So here he is, a decade later, CEO of another airline and coming back to the PHL area. If it all works - and the auguries are presently quite good - I shall think of TTN as Siegel's Revenge.

 

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-20 15:08:12]

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: Flytravel
Posted 2013-01-20 15:15:13 and read 15119 times.

Quoting PHLwok (Reply 35):
PHL/EWR-RDU can be day tripped, which can be very useful for business traveler and drives some of the frequencies you see into there. F9 will need this frequency to be a plausible contender.

I don't think F9 is interested in pleasing the day trip business traveler. At this moment, it's trying for leisure and VFR and some business travelers is gravy. Spending a hotel night isn't a big deal esp. since many visit for more than one day and can work with internet at a hotel. If F9 wanted to get into into a day trip scheduled route, TTN-PVD or TTN-BOS would make more sense, since Boston as a city can be enjoyed in a day and it's a bigger market.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-20 19:41:43 and read 14992 times.

So after the introductory fares are gone what does everyone think the lowest fare will be:

Here's some of my guesses

Intro Fare Normal starting fare
MCO, TPA 69 89-99
FLL 69 89-99
RSW 79 99-109
CMH 29 69
ATL 49 89 (No Low-fare competition)
MDW 49 89 (No true low fare competition WN has $130+ fares)
DTW 29 79 (No Low-fare Competition)
RDU 29 79 (No Low-fare Competition)

MSY 79 109
When they discontinue the intro fares is another question..

[Edited 2013-01-20 20:02:34]

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: usflyguy
Posted 2013-01-20 20:40:59 and read 14938 times.

I think this experiment is going to go the same way the COS experiment did.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-20 21:15:47 and read 14948 times.

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 54):
I think this experiment is going to go the same way the COS experiment did.


Within a 50 mile radius of Colorado Springs there are a million people.
Within in a 50 mile radius of Trenton there are atleast 2 million to 2.5 million people.


I think COS was a little different

[Edited 2013-01-20 21:18:10]

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: PHLBOS
Posted 2013-01-21 07:35:36 and read 14752 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 51):
it's interesting because it says something about Southwest at PHL - which appeals to my sense of irony and of metaphor.

The present Frontier CEO, the man responsible for the massive and complex restructure, is Dave Siegel. When he was at US Airways and Southwest announced PHL, Siegel made the notorious comment - "they're coming to kill us."

Southwest hasn't killed US at PHL, but PHL has hardly been a scorched earth triumph for Southwest. And that statement, it itself, didn't kill Siegel's career at US - but it is the thing he is most remembered for and it surely didn't help. He was kicked out, not long after.

So here he is, a decade later, CEO of another airline and coming back to the PHL area. If it all works - and the auguries are presently quite good - I shall think of TTN as Siegel's Revenge.

In retrospect, all WN's entry into PHL did accomplish was halt FL's expansion that was taking place at the time. One needs to remember that had it not been for Doug Parker & HP coming in, US would've likely filed Chapter 7 within a year. WN, at the time, was not going to let US' possible demise be a boon for FL and/or an opportunity for B6 to come in.

Yes, F9 came to PHL around the same time as WN (2004); but WN had no presence at DEN, so the only competition between F9 & WN out of PHL was strictly on connection itineraries. I know F9 for a short period flew PHL-LAX early on, but I don't know whether WN flew that route at the same time as F9 if at all.

Most of us in the PHL area realized that once WN started PHL-DEN; it was only a matter of when not if F9 would drop PHL-DEN if not leave PHL all together. Had U5 not gone belly up, and given F9 an opportunity to fly their Apple Vacations flights, F9 would indeed be completely gone from PHL.

F9's coming to TTN is kind of like what WN used to do in the old days; compete against other major airport carriers but out of a different airport that's within reasonable proximity to said-major airport.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: Sligo
Posted 2013-01-21 07:42:13 and read 14732 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 55):
Within a 50 mile radius of Colorado Springs there are a million people.
Within in a 50 mile radius of Trenton there are atleast 2 million to 2.5 million people.


I think COS was a little different

+1. Moreover, I'd guess that a county-by-county analysis in NJ and PA in which EWR, PHL, ABE and ACY are included would result in around 4,000,000 people who would view TTN as their first choice airport if destinations, fares and frequencies were equal. TTN would be the decisive #3 first-choice catchment in terms of population. When you start to overlay household income to cme up with total buying power (population*income), I'd guess that it would also rank decisively higher than ABE or ACY (or COS for that matter).

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-21 08:13:19 and read 14694 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 55):
Within in a 50 mile radius of Trenton there are at least 2 million to 2.5 million people.

And two of those are sitting Supreme Court Justices; either born or raised in Trenton.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 53):
Here's some of my guesses

Intro Fare Normal starting fare
MCO, TPA 69 89-99
FLL 69 89-99
RSW 79 99-109
CMH 29 69
ATL 49 89 (No Low-fare competition)
MDW 49 89 (No true low fare competition WN has $130+ fares)
DTW 29 79 (No Low-fare Competition)
RDU 29 79 (No Low-fare Competition)
MSY 79 109


DTW being the exception in today present economy; in a ULCC leisure model I believe each of the markets would tolerate $99 fares. Additionally I would break the 7-14-21 day advance purchase requirement mold. AS use to offer a 3 day advance purchase in select Alaska markets to SEA which was flight specific. This might work using a day vs flight in that most if not all of the TTN service is LTD (less than daily)

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-21 10:18:55 and read 14583 times.

Quoting Sligo (Reply 57):
included would result in around 4,000,000 people who would view TTN as their first choice airport if destinations,

It's going to be fun to watch the RITA numbers for TTN when they start publishing in the next 3-6 months.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 42):
Trenton-Mercer: A hassle free airport
http://www.philly.com/philly/business/20130120_Air_Travel_For_All.html

Interesting quote: I guess we can add TTN to the list of airports with PFCs
TTN going to have to have or build more than 1,200 parking spots.

[Edited 2013-01-21 10:39:21]

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-21 10:31:38 and read 14557 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 59):
TTN going to have to have or build more than 1,200 sparking spots

I wasn't complaining, I love to see the expansion. I will have to confirm when I fly to MCO next monday but I think TTN needs more enhancements. Hopefully once they pay for the parking lots they can start making enhancements inside the terminal. Sure they'll have to be small but I think they will be needed. They certainly need to offer some sort of food option now that the resturant is gone.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: STT757
Posted 2013-01-21 10:38:17 and read 14567 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 60):
They certainly need to offer some sort of food option now that the resturant is gone.

I see Dunkin Donuts and Subway.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-21 10:57:11 and read 14521 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 60):
I wasn't complaining, I love to see the expansion

My attempt at humor I suppose. because PFC are both origin and destination based I suspect a lot of the region is already paying them (maybe not in TTN) but on the destination end or at another origin airport who collects them; and may not even know it. If they wanted to charge me $2.50 and I knew the $$ would stay at my community airport for improvements I'd pay it.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 60):
They certainly need to offer some sort of food option now that the restaurant is gone.

I believe the article you posted in 42 said the restaurant is in fact coming back and was a work in progress. In the interim I suppose they could bring in the local food truck circuit. A second thought might be to fly up some of the good North Carolina smoked pork or BBQ. TTN at least for now has a direct transportation link in F9.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-21 11:00:20 and read 14538 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 61):
I see Dunkin Donuts and Subway.

That'd be my guess, or something like that. From the Philly.com article:

http://articles.philly.com/2013-01-2...rontier-airlines-nonstop-flights/2

"The county will make other capital improvements, including outfitting a restaurant, with revenue from passenger-facility charges, jet-fuel sales, and landing and other fees, "based on Frontier's needs and the number of people who come through the door," Hughes said."

Although whether this new "restaurant" will be open by the time Jerseyguy flies is an open question.  

A couple of functioning air-bridges would be good, too, but most of all what TTN seems to need is - space. So I assume the plans for the new terminal have been taken out of the bottom drawer and dusted off:

http://www.state.nj.us/counties/mercer/departments/airport/faqs.html

"TTN is proposing to replace our functionally obsolete two gate terminal with a new, modern two gate facility. Our existing terminal, designed in the 1970s, is too small to allow for the adequate care and control of passengers. The retrieval and handling of luggage is equally troublesome. In addition, improvements must be performed to allow for the size and weight of new security screening equipment, mandated by the FAA."

A modern "two-gate" facility. Hmmm.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-21 11:13:33 and read 14500 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 63):
A modern "two-gate" facility. Hmmm.

Isn't modern and 2 gates an oxy-moron LOL. Hopefully this modern 2 gate facility will include 2 modern jetbridges capable of handling the average narrowbody such as Frontiers A319s. Currently they do have 1 jetbridge but appartarently it is not capable of handling the A319 as F9 is boarding via the other "gate" which is a doorway to the tarmac.

A little birdy told me that unfortunately any big enhancements probably wouldn't be coming in the near future the decision is probably a year off.

As for the resturant, I don't think it will be open by next monday. What they also need is bathrooms past security. I was in Princeton a few days ago and decieded to stop by and pre-security they have bathrooms but notices that there are none past security. However I don't think security is all that difficult to go thru so maybe its not a big deal.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-21 11:28:55 and read 14495 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 64):
A little birdy told me that unfortunately any big enhancements probably wouldn't be coming in the near future the decision is probably a year off.

I think that is entirely probable - and sensible. As one of the Freeholders said, Frontier is off to great start but we need to see some returns.

Frontier is over the first hurdle - will anyone use TTN at all? It seems to be clearing he second hurdle - will anyone use TTN for anywhere other than MCO?

The third hurdle is the April expansion - the "not-Florida" expansion - and although the auguries are good they won't actually know until they get there. I assume that all (or most) will be okay during the high summer travel time, but that's still an assumption.

But then - what happens in the down days of September and October? Hopefully, that will be mostly house-keeping.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-21 12:11:39 and read 14456 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 64):
Isn't modern and 2 gates an oxy-moron LOL.

Should I be offened Juneau (JNU) has four gates with loading bridges. Personally I like the ambiance and nostalgia of walking on the tarmac. Although the pax may have to wait a few extra minutes until the engines wind completely down.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 64):
Currently they do have 1 jet bridge but apparently it is not capable of handling the A319 as F9 is boarding via the other "gate" which is a doorway to the tarmac.

When WestPac folded at COS. The COS airport sold off its excess loading bridges. Supposedly there is an airport excess/surplus property listing which is available to airport managers and their staffs listing everything aviation including Ground Support Equipment (GSE) and available on the cheap. Also many city or state governments also run a excess property programs. If all else fails they could probably coordinate with the federal state agent for surplus property who is local government liaison to the feds including the military. As the military conflict draws down in SWA (Southwest Asia) this type of equipment should become available

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-21 13:16:18 and read 14399 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 66):
Personally I like the ambiance and nostalgia of walking on the tarmac.

I do too, last time I did that was in the mid 90s (around 95??) at SRQ coming off my American Eagle Flight from MIA.
However that ambience wears thin when its raining, snowing, or windy.

Quoting mariner (Reply 65):
I think that is entirely probable - and sensible. As one of the Freeholders said, Frontier is off to great start but we need to see some returns.

Screw the people of Mercer County, not my money LOL Besides it will be a small return on the money all NJ residents throw into the Trenton (and all other Abbot) school districts.

[Edited 2013-01-21 13:19:57]

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-21 14:07:26 and read 14354 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 64):
A little birdy told me that unfortunately any big enhancements probably wouldn't be coming in the near future the decision is probably a year off.

You can help but think this snippet is on TTN minds. "14 carriers have tried, and failed, to establish commercial jet service there (TTN)."

Because airlines come and go in the wink of an eye with little to no explanation the airport leadership is simply exercising a wait and see approach before a lot of $$$ is committed to the airport. Capital projects/improvements are generally on a 3-5 year or longer wait list. Bits and pieces may be fast tracked. I accepted the one year timeline to be very aggressive.

I'm sure the TTN leadership is familiar with F9 at MKE and to a certain extent MCI and now COS. I'd take the same approach. I hope F9 survives in TTN. It's a good location geographically. If the data shows the fares trending down at PHL and EWR in the long haul we can assume it worked. At the end of the day TTN is just another city and just another analyst WAG.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-21 14:17:24 and read 14331 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 68):
I'm sure the TTN leadership is familiar with F9 at MKE and to a certain extent MCI and now COS. I'd take the same approach. I hope F9 survives in TTN. It's a good location geographically. If the data shows the fares trending down at PHL and EWR in the long haul we can assume it worked. At the end of the day TTN is just another city and just another analyst WAG.

I just hope they can make some minor enhancements in the meantime. I'll know what those might be on Monday night after my flight.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-21 15:43:09 and read 14303 times.

The TTN-MSY flight on Friday Feb 01 which I believe is also the inaugural flight is currently selling for a premium in the high $300; closer to $400.00 and the return on Monday Feb 4 is $69 I suppose this is the Super Bowl factor

At 123 miles between BWI and TTN and free parking I can't help but think if some of Baltimore got smart and decided to drive and fly out of TTN. On Saturday I saw a $108.00 fare on the Friday Feb 01 flight between TTN-MSY. Today its no where to be found.

A travel agent may have grabbed them up and sold them for a premium. I surprised F9 did not put an extra flight on the route for Saturday Feb 02 or even Sunday morning Feb 03 as a revenue generator. Next year if the game is in a F9 city maybe.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-21 15:54:35 and read 14274 times.

Next years Super Bowl is in an F9 city NYC (LGA). I will assume if TTN is still around they will see their share of bowl pax

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-21 17:37:05 and read 14190 times.

I just spotted a billboard for F9 at TTN

Rt 1 South between Meadow Rd and Quakerbridge Rd in West Windsor.

on an electronic changing billboard 2 different messages (its on with other ads as well I believe 3 others)

Q: Where do you get off expecting a better Airport
A: Trenton Airport Exit 2 I-95

Q: Where do you get off expecting shorter lines?
A: Trenton Airport Exit 2 I-95

I would have gotten a pic but there were trees in the way from the shopping plaza that you can see it from

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-22 00:24:26 and read 14051 times.

Oh for anyone who is interested 25.25% of all flights out of EWR were delayed an average of 62 minutes from November 2011 to November 2012. One more reason to fly TTN on nonstop flights.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: Sligo
Posted 2013-01-22 04:35:21 and read 13998 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 36):
Quoting Sligo (Reply 33):
If the stats show that 3x a day to MDW (or any other business market) can keep higher yielding business flying from the airport they'd prefer to fly to...and F9 makes the commitment to that kind of frequency and it works, then viola; F9 will be a business airline as far as this 2-4 million person catchment is concerned.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. If the actual stats, as in bums on seats, show that TTN-MDW can support more frequency, then it may happen.

But we have yet to find out if TTN-MDW will support 6 x weekly, and if so, can it support that through winter?

I'd guess there is 5,000-6,000 O&D enplanements per day EWR/PHL to/from MDW/ORD; close to 100% of those in the TTN catchment are a part of that EWR/PHL number right now.

So IMHO it is quite reasonable to conclude that 3x out of TTN is sustainable.

The problem I have here is that 6x per week to MDW will attract only the least time sensitive, small business travelers and get around 0% of corporates. The concern, obviously, is that F9 is not putting in the minimum level of frequency to give the service a chance at succeeding.

So Im hoping they see whatever sort of threshhold of demand that theyre looking for quickly to push the business markets up to 3x at least on M/R/F/Su.

[Edited 2013-01-22 04:36:20]

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: STT757
Posted 2013-01-22 05:16:15 and read 13967 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 71):
Next years Super Bowl is in an F9 city NYC (LGA). I will assume if TTN is still around they will see their share of bowl pax

TTN to Metlife Stadium is 62 miles, 1 hour 14 minutes in current traffic. When the Turnpike expansion is done this will probably be an hour flat.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-22 07:21:01 and read 13908 times.

Quoting Sligo (Reply 74):
The concern, obviously, is that F9 is not putting in the minimum level of frequency to give the service a chance at succeeding.

Potentially setting it up for failure.

I wonder if 2X daily (once in the morning and once in the evening) or alternate the flights; M-W-F in the morning and T-T-S in the evening. Anything is fair game in a ULCC model.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-22 08:05:03 and read 13876 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 76):
I wonder if 2X daily (once in the morning and once in the evening) or alternate the flights; M-W-F in the morning and T-T-S in the evening. Anything is fair game in a ULCC model.

2X might interfere with the other service they have issues with lack of planes. M-W-F AM T-T-S PM might work. The big problem is that they are doing too much too fast with the number of planes they have. If they are truly going for vacation pax then I don't know why they are doing CMH and RDU. They could easily do 2X MDW if they just dropped RDU which is 6X. 6X to RDU tells me they are looking at buisness travel not leisure pax, which might not be a bad idea but the times for even the 1X is a bit of an issue. Flight leaves TTN at 630am and returns from RDU at 830am. Buisness pax aren't going to want to spend an extra night in RDU and the flights are going to have to remain real cheap if leisure travelers are going to wake up at 4am to catch a flight from TTN.

[Edited 2013-01-22 08:05:48]

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: EWRandMDW
Posted 2013-01-22 08:54:28 and read 13835 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 71):
Next years Super Bowl is in an F9 city NYC (LGA).

The thing is, unless the Giants play the Jets, at least one team will fly into EWR (F9 airport or not) as it is the closest major airport (not counting TEB), and in the same state as the stadium! Of course, NYC will conveniently forget New Jersey is the actual home of "their" two football teams!

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-22 09:30:01 and read 13800 times.

Quoting Sligo (Reply 74):
The problem I have here is that 6x per week to MDW will attract only the least time sensitive, small business travelers and get around 0% of corporates. The concern, obviously, is that F9 is not putting in the minimum level of frequency to give the service a chance at succeeding.

It is the model, Sligo.

The restructure is partly based on rigid fleet discipline and lower fleet frequency. DEN-ATL is 1 x daily as is DEN-DTW. DEN-DTW goes to 2 x daily in summer, but it used to be 3 x.

And we know that - with this model - Frontier is going to report a profit for FY 2012, the first FY profit since 2003.

Wall Street loves it. On December 31, Republic raised the Q4 estimates for Frontier. Since then the RJET stock price has risen from (about) $5.50 to (about) $8.40 on massive volume, to a more than two year high. On January 2 alone, the stock price climbed more than 18%.

It is - to me - infinitely better to go in low and build as traffic demands, not to go in with all guns blazing and not be able to fill the aircraft.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-22 09:39:34]

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-22 09:36:32 and read 13788 times.

Ewrandmdw,
We were talking about how F9s TTN-MSY flight was full of Super Bowl pax and next year the game will be in NJ and how that would effect F9. I expect all 3 metro airports to be utilized by fans and maybe TTN if the team is in a city that is served.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: Mexicana757
Posted 2013-01-22 09:59:01 and read 13750 times.

As some of you on here I too would like to see F9 succeed on MDW-TTN. This is the first time F9 adds a new route out of MDW since they have been flying into the airport since the 90s. At 6x weekly it's a good start. Anything more than that I think would be too much on such a route. When the route proves to be a success then we can say the route should go 2x daily.

If MDW-TTN is a success I would like to see F9 test the waters at MDW and mirror some of the current Florida flying being done by FL. As the FL brand starts to slowly disappear they can probably open routes like MDW-MCO, MDW-RSW or MDW-TPA.   

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: point2point
Posted 2013-01-22 10:21:56 and read 13715 times.

Quoting Mexicana757 (Reply 81):
This is the first time F9 adds a new route out of MDW since they have been flying into the airport since the 90s.

Another route that I think would be good from MDW for F9 would be to PHF. I do believe that since F9 entered PHF, they have been daily and year round, then daily and seasonal, then pull out, then non-daily and year round, and then non-daily and seasonal. Did I get them all? In the meantime, there seems to be inconsistency at PHF with F9.

Currently, there is no nonstop airline service from the Chicago airports to PHF, although they have service to both RIC and ORF. Wouldn't some F9 service tofrom Chicago (MDW) and PHF help both F9 with PHF, and at least keep a stronger presence of F9 at PHF if they considered a nonstop to MDW as a supplement to its DEN-PHF service?

And I think that TTN-PHF is maybe a bit short for a flight?

Just my thoughts here?




 

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-22 10:28:44 and read 13718 times.

Quoting point2point (Reply 82):
I do believe that since F9 entered PHF, they have been daily and year round, then daily and seasonal, then pull out, then non-daily and year round, and then non-daily and seasonal.

Frontier has never pulled out of PHF.

Quoting point2point (Reply 82):
And I think that TTN-PHF is maybe a bit short for a flight?

Just a guess - and I could easily be wrong - but I think that TTN-PHF is more likely, at some point, than MDW-PHF. Or - I hope so.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: Flytravel
Posted 2013-01-22 10:42:14 and read 13681 times.

Quoting point2point (Reply 82):
And I think that TTN-PHF is maybe a bit short for a flight?

It's the about the same distance by drive as TTN-PIT, but TTN-PIT would be connecting bigger markets. I can't imagine F9 linking TTN-PHF. I think many families would be comfortable driving through VA (up to 6 hours) even though there is the DC traffic and tolls. TTN-RDU and TTN-ATL should cover the Southeast, where some might fly TTN-RDU and drive to Charlotte.

However, given that F9 attempted MSY for leisure likely more than VFR, maybe it'd consider TTN-CHS as a seasonal offering targeting pure leisure. CHS has low fare service to BWI (via WN), JFK and BOS (via B6), but the PHL to EWR area lacks low fare service to CHS.

[Edited 2013-01-22 10:48:54]

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jetsetter629
Posted 2013-01-22 10:54:23 and read 13659 times.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 84):
However, given that F9 attempted MSY for leisure likely more than VFR, maybe it'd consider TTN-CHS as a seasonal offering targeting pure leisure

Would love to see that! NK recently announced PHL-MYR, so I cannot see F9 opening a station to MYR. I'm really curious to see what else they add from TTN that is "leisure orientated"

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-22 11:45:53 and read 13613 times.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 84):
. I can't imagine F9 linking TTN-PHF.

The point about PHF - for summer leisure - is Virginia Beach.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 84):
I'm really curious to see what else they add from TTN that is "leisure orientated"

I guess PBI may be in the mix for next winter.

I'm hoping for TTN-NAS, if only to increase the conceptual links with Princeton - "Old Nassau".  

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jetsetter629
Posted 2013-01-22 13:02:22 and read 13548 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 86):
I'm hoping for TTN-NAS

Hmm..that would work as FPO and NAS are US preclearance airport

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-22 13:09:35 and read 13555 times.

Quoting jetsetter629 (Reply 87):
Hmm..that would work as FPO and NAS are US preclearance airport

And not to forget that TTN already has a (very small) FIS presence, through Ronson Aviation, for international GA pax arriving at the airport.

http://www.ronsonaviation.com/airportinformation_customs.asp

"Clear US Customs at Trenton with a friendly agent that comes to you and specializes in private aircraft clearing and be on your way in 20 minutes or less"

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-22 13:11:02]

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-22 13:50:44 and read 13506 times.

Quoting point2point (Reply 82):
Another route that I think would be good from MDW for F9 would be to PHF.

Given Chicago's geographical location I'm not sure Chicago would generate enough traffic to PHF. I do see a possible feed between the Navy at Great Lakes and the Atlantic fleet. I do like your TTN-PHF idea or a MDW-TTN-PHF route.

In the near term I think one or more daily DCA-PHF if RJET could be persuaded to surrender the necessary inter-perimeter slots to F9. F9 has three DEN-DCA which is a decent amount of capacity. Add to that no other carrier flies DCA-PHF direct or non-stop ($$ cha-ching) at least the last time I looked. Its a good 3-4 hour road trip on the best day. If PeoplExpress ever gets established at PHF its almost a guarantee they're gonna jump on it.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-22 21:14:35 and read 13371 times.

TTN airport officials are asking the Freeholders to approve of the hiring on an engineer to help them re-organize the airport.

http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2...ercer_county_freeholders_disc.html

"County officials are poised to hire an engineering firm to help them decide what kind of improvements to make at the Trenton-Mercer Airport terminal to accommodate the rapid expansion of Frontier Airlines."

There's nothing much new in it, just a bit more detail - there won't be a restaurant or food vendor by the time you fly Jeyseyguy.

"Watson said that with Frontier’s 138-seat aircraft expected to make approximately 36 flights per week, passenger crowding inside the airport terminal is likely to become a problem.

When the airport’s restaurant closed at the beginning of the year, county officials saw an opportunity to reconfigure the airport terminal to avoid the crowding.

Watson said that while the airport will likely need to offer food service to passengers, it may be possible that a portion of the old restaurant space can be used as a smaller “grab and go” food counter with some seating so that the remainder of the area can be used for passenger space"


This is all short-term - it doesn't address the long-term situation:

"Watson said the study of the airport would only address short-term capacity issues.

In 2006 the county received approval from the Federal Aviation Administration to double the size of the airport terminal, but no expansion was carried out."


mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-22 22:16:03 and read 13314 times.

I'm glad they realize that it's a problem. Hopefully they will atleast have started the project to reconfigure the terminal by April when MDW and the other 4 new cities come online.

I will likely have a trip report posted by Tuesday tentatively titled "Mercer to McCoy: F9 TTN-MCO"

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: Sligo
Posted 2013-01-23 02:50:11 and read 13266 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 90):
In 2006 the county received approval from the Federal Aviation Administration to double the size of the airport terminal, but no expansion was carried out."

IIm fairly sure that this is the approval that the TTN-based start-up pushed through the FAA. I wonder if it is still valid.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: Flytravel
Posted 2013-01-23 04:41:57 and read 13231 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 86):
The point about PHF - for summer leisure - is Virginia Beach.

I think Virginia Beach is closer to ORF and one would still have to drive through the tunnels. I don't know but I think it's too driveable within 6 hours and Virginia Beach might be more familiar with the DC/MD region than the NJ/PA regions.

Quoting mariner (Reply 86):
I guess PBI may be in the mix for next winter.

I would hope it would wait until TTN-FLL matures but maybe by next winter. One of the other large markets within 1000 miles that is not easily driveable is JAX. PHL-JAX fares are quite high on US, but I suppose the one stops connections on WN and FL are more reasonable.

I'm not sure if F9 is very much into thru flights like WN, but with TTN-RDU it could solidify the route with thrus and offer TTN-RDU-JAX and TTN-RDU-MSY linking RDU to both JAX and MSY, and TTN via a one stop rather than flying a longer/thinner route from TTN. TTN-CLE-DEN and TTN-PIT-DEN could open more thrus to DEN and the west coast along with TTN-MDW-DEN.

Part of TTN-RDU's success will depend upon US having high fares on PHL-RDU. I looked at US's site and for the summer, the fares are competitive. I think US will eventually raise the fares but there is a lag between the time WN pulls out of the route and when the fares actually go up.

I've said before but TTN-CMH should be replaced with TTN-CLE. In addition to the latter being a bigger market, WN prices PHL-MDW-CMH quite competitively ($100 one-way) but fares to CLE are high on all carriers.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: Sligo
Posted 2013-01-23 04:59:05 and read 13236 times.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 93):
Part of TTN-RDU's success will depend upon US having high fares on PHL-RDU.

One of the advantages of TTN is that F9's success will not require pulling traffic from EWR or PHL's catchment. Keeping the people who would prefer TTN at home is what they need to do to be successful.

The high-fares of their indirect competitors at PHL/EWR are fleeting; they can be made low-fare tomorrow if US or CO wishes. Organic demand for air travel, however, is not so fleeting.

So instead of cherry-picking currently high fare routes or avoiding low fare routes, F9 would be best served to fly where the people that sourround TTN demand to fly and offer reasonable fares and frequency; that's what's needed to keep these 2-4 million people at home and not traveling to EWR or PHL.

Id assume a debate is going on right now somewhere in the F9 world about whether they should eventually budget for a *fare premium* out of TTN vs PHL or EWR...instead of discounting ; of course that could only occur after TTN becomes well known to its locals, but a solid case can be made for a premium when that time comes.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-23 06:12:27 and read 13192 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 90):
there won't be a restaurant or food vendor by the time you fly Jeyseyguy.

In the interim it sounds like this might be opportunity if local code or ordinance allows it to invite the portable food truck(s) to the airport for an outbound snack for departing pax or a first taste of Jersey for arriving pax.

Or another outside the box idea would be to bring some N.C. style pulled pork or BBQ from GSO now and the RDU triangle region later into April. http://www.travelchannel.com/tv-show...-food/travel-guides/north-carolina

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-23 06:36:00 and read 13186 times.

F9 is also starting to show up as the second carrier in a multi-carrier configuration reservations request in TTN. I suppose because they are the sole carrier offering service into TTN at the moment. I checked SEA-MDW-TTN Its shows and AS code share on he SEA-MDW segment and F9 on the MDW-TTN segment in April It also shows SEA-TTN via DEN and MDW all the way through on F9

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-23 07:43:39 and read 13152 times.

Appears that Fromtier @ TTN may be starting to have a college following.

From "The Signal" the paper of The College of New Jersey (TCNJ) also located in Ewing.
http://www.tcnjsignal.net/2013/01/22...cal-hub-for-aerial-transportation/

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-23 09:34:23 and read 13043 times.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 93):
I think Virginia Beach is closer to ORF and one would still have to drive through the tunnels.

Virginia Beach is slightly closer to ORF but Frontier doesn't fly to ORF - it flies to PHF and a deal of Frontier's summer traffic is bound for Virginia Beach..

I'd rather see TTN-MYR, but I assume Frontier at TTN is one (not the only) reason Spirit has just announced PHL-MYR - a shot across Frontier's bows.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 97):
Appears that Fromtier @ TTN may be starting to have a college following.

I imagine Rutgers is in there somewhere as well.  

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2013-01-23 09:46:54 and read 13028 times.

Rutgers and Princeton have students who fly to go there but no mass transit will probably make them use EWR since the train and shuttle companies already have service to those campuses. TCNJ clearly no one flys to go there total suitcase school for locals. Any colleges in the area might have people interested for spring break travel though and TCNJ is really close but spring break is a very short amount of time.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-23 09:57:12 and read 13037 times.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 99):
Rutgers and Princeton have students who fly to go there but no mass transit will probably make them use EWR since the train and shuttle companies already have service to those campuses.

There is a reason (several) Frontier is calling it "Princeton/Trenton" Airport. And since there are limo/shuttle bus/taxi companies based in Trenton (and New Brunswick), I can't imagine transport to the airport is much of a problem.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-23 10:19:56 and read 13000 times.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 99):
Rutgers and Princeton have students who fly to go there but no mass transit will probably make them use EWR since the train and shuttle companies already have service to those campuses

Around the greater Nashville college scene which includes Vanderbilt, Belmont, Middle Tennessee State University (MTSU) TSU Mega-bus has a huge following amongst the college crowd for their low-low fares. MTSU for one has a significant aviation program.

I'm not sure about the Ivy league schools; in the mid-south college students don't have a lot of money unless mom and dad have deep pockets. Mega-bus has expanded their routes five fold in Nashville in the last year alone to cater to the college students. You can actually book a through fare from Nashville to NYC.

Because mega-bus serves Princeton/NYC no less than nine time daily in both directions. If F9 is in fact chasing the college crowd and TTN and RDU makes the theory plausible F9 might want to place some advertising signage on the mega-bus or negotiate a second stop Princeton/Trenton stop at TTN.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-23 16:34:49 and read 12911 times.

Trenton Marriott wants a shuttle bus for pax arriving/departing TTN:

http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2...renton_marriott_board_may_pur.html

"Trenton Marriott board may purchase shuttle bus to take passengers to and from Trenton-Mercer Airport"

Not set in stone yet.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jetsetter629
Posted 2013-01-23 16:42:29 and read 12891 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 91):
I will likely have a trip report posted by Tuesday tentatively titled "Mercer to McCoy: F9 TTN-MCO"

Looking forward to the report - I'll be flying TTN-MSY in March and TTN-MDW in June

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-24 05:38:05 and read 12756 times.

As was mentioned earlier TTN is looking to hire an engineer to reconfigure the terminal. The interesting thing is that restaurants have contacted TTN to be in the terminal.

http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2...ercer_county_freeholders_disc.html

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: MSYtristar
Posted 2013-01-24 06:08:32 and read 12732 times.

Quoting jetsetter629 (Reply 103):
Looking forward to the report - I'll be flying TTN-MSY in March and TTN-MDW in June
Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 91):
I will likely have a trip report posted by Tuesday tentatively titled "Mercer to McCoy: F9 TTN-MCO"

I'll probably have one posted, too. Taking the inaugural MSY-TTN on the 1st...followed by a cab to the train station, a three hour wait before catching Amtrak to Boston, and finally back home on AA. Should be an adventure.  

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-24 10:15:38 and read 12668 times.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 105):
Taking the inaugural MSY-TTN on the 1st.

Have fun - but don't expect a full flight.

First flight to MSY (2/1) is full - Superbowl fans - but no matter how well first flights to a vacation destination do, first flights from a vacation destination are usually booked low.

Second MSY-TTN, on Monday 2/4, is sold out and has been for a week or so - bringing all those Superbowl fans back from MSY.  

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-24 12:46:02 and read 12573 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 104):
TTN is looking to hire an engineer to reconfigure the terminal

I'm sure there are a bunch of them out there. This company http://www.bizjournals.com/albany/ne...s-with-rw-armstrong-to-create.html was just hired on a five year contract for consulting and planning at CKV http://www.theleafchronicle.com/arti...dition-has-improved?nclick_check=1

" Members approved hiring the R.W. Armstrong engineering firm with a five-year contract for consulting and planning at the airport." It looks like R.W. Armstrong has ops in NY State

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-25 08:51:34 and read 12399 times.

I don't believe this has been posted yet. http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2...freeholders_hear.html#incart_river

"A representative from Frontier Airlines said the company was in support of minimal repairs at the facility. “It’s a very unique facility and it does not come without challenges,” said Jeff Campbell, who specializes in facilities for the airline. “We believe there is a need for modest modifications but that certainly doesn’t include any expansion” of the terminal.

The airline would prefer that the county not undergo expensive renovations to the terminal because the cost would be passed on to the airline and they wouldn’t be able to keep their prices competitive, Campbell said."

It sounds like F9 is pleased with TTN. If F9 entered into a long term lease I'm not sure how the airport authority could raise rates; five up to ten years is not uncommon in the retail sector. Although it may an infinity in the airline biz.

Reading between the lines I would favor repairs over renovation too. Any capital airport improvements which would include a expanded terminal and more gates potentially invites competition to TTN.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-26 15:58:36 and read 12222 times.

Well as luck would have it, it appears that there will be some wintry weather for my flight on Monday. Currently its supposed to change to rain by 1pm (my flight at 4pm arrival from MCO at around 3:15). If not I guess we'll find out how well Trenton operates in the snow. Rain or snow, It would have been nicer to be boarding via a jetbridge but it is what it is.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: kingcavalier
Posted 2013-01-26 16:21:30 and read 12198 times.

I'm arriving on the inbound flight from MCO on Monday afternoon. Hopefully, we aren't sliding down the boarding ramp like a slip and slide.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-26 19:16:33 and read 12108 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 109):
Well as luck would have it, it appears that there will be some wintry weather for my flight on Monday.
Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 109):
I guess we'll find out how well Trenton operates in the snow.

The snow melt or brine they use on the ramp and or walking bridge does tend to stain carpet and leave white blotches after it dries. Its not so bad if 1-2-3 walk on it; but 138 yikes. Lets hope F9 stocks extra aisle carpet in DEN. I suppose they could make the pax check their galoshes at the door.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: enilria
Posted 2013-01-27 13:01:07 and read 11958 times.

Quoting ryanrap1 (Thread starter):
I know many people are skeptical about Frontiers decision on TTN but I was looking at some of the routes and loads from there website and a lot of the lfights look almost completely full.

I don't think the loads mean much with the $29 fares in place. It'll be a while before we know anything.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: rampart
Posted 2013-01-27 14:02:38 and read 11927 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 111):
The snow melt or brine they use on the ramp and or walking bridge does tend to stain carpet and leave white blotches after it dries.

The degree to which NJ uses salt solutions for ice astounds me. Our roads look white and encrusted, makes me think of salt cod. Driving home the other night, I had more difficulty from the salt mist coating my windshield than I did with the light flurries. When rains, I would think all our lakes become temporarily saline. Is this a similar problem in Minnesota or New England?, because I know it's not as common in Colorado.

-Rampart

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: nkops
Posted 2013-01-27 14:34:50 and read 11880 times.

Quoting rampart (Reply 113):

down here in south Jersey, they seem to use the brine alot more than rock salt... just makes white lines on the blacktop.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-27 15:23:23 and read 11848 times.

My armchair marketing mind went to work again Sunday. With sixteen or so miles between Trenton and Joint Base McGuire-Dix-Lakehurst. F9 may want to insure the military ITT (Information-Tickets-Travel) which is a MWR Military-Welfare-Recreation office on the base knows they are operating out the TTN airport.

All five branches of the Armed Services work at one or both of the bases and would be a potential customer base with some disposable cash as it relates to leisure tavel. It would also be good to get established with the USO and the Armed Services YMCA. Word of mouth spreads fairly quickly. I would think that is 10,000 if not more potential customers

As we near April 9 when all the flights come to fruition at TTN; F9 and or the TTN airport marketing team may want to contact the Air Mobility Command terminal at Joint Base Mcguire-Dix (J-B-M-D) to let them know the TTN is again an option. I realize TTN is a new option for the area and change does takes time. The J-B-M-D web URL is telling those arriving for duty or travel to use the PHL airport http://www.jointbasemdl.af.mil/passengerterminal.asp

In a ULCC model F9 should consider hiring a military liaison possibly a military retiree or spouse who has access to any military base to market all of these scenarios near the cities F9 flies. In my mind it would be money well spent with a return hand over fist.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-27 17:15:19 and read 11773 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 115):

Pasted from the Joint Base McGuire-Dix Air Mobility Command terminal URL I posted in #115 above.

"Travel to/from Phl Airport- Transportation to and from Philadelphia airport is available 7 days a week via Rapid Rover. Call for rates: 1 (800) 322-8062"

For any locals in the area familiar with the Rapid Rover service. In addition to the service offered between PHL and Joint Base McGuire-Dix; would the same service be available between TTN to Joint Base McGuire-Dix?

If Rapid Rover is a limo or airport shuttle most do offer door to door service. The Rapid Rover service sounds like mass transit on the NJ side of the state-line.

Thanks in Advance.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-27 17:59:54 and read 11742 times.

Nope Rapid Rover is a limo/shuttle company. Doesn't offer service to TTN only PHL and ACY.

http://www.rapidrover.com/Default.aspx

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-28 08:02:16 and read 11598 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 117):

I suspect it shouldn't not take them long to get established at TTN. They are kind of pricy though. I priced a Mt. Holly to PHL fare, Mt. Holly being the closest town I remember as a 7-8 year old child to McGuire-Dix. The fare without discounts came back at $105.00 o/w If and when they get established at TTN I can't see a TTN-McGuire-Dix shuttle fare costing that much.

Their URL catchphrase caught my eye: Rapid Rover - "A Different Airport Shuttle" Service.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-28 13:02:13 and read 11535 times.

Well they certainly have some improvements to make at TTN. No bathrooms after security, No food (even vending machines) after security. Which wouldn't make a big problem especially since they tell you about the bathroom at Check-in and prior to security, unless your flight is delayed and there is no way to get back to the terminal
even if you would be willing to go thru security again. There is a waiting area prior to security which I would recommend people use so they won't be stuck. Post Security area is just a group of seats and a TV.

Not good, the engineer needs to address this in his recommendations. Otherwise I'm going to venture that there will be few repeat customers. Plus is Trenton given low priority because it seems like my flight is delayed longer than most of the flights in Philly. The aircraft for the flight from Orlando arrived on-time from Denver.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-28 13:51:50 and read 11469 times.

My flight just canceled and best they can do is Tommorrow at 1015pm

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: rampart
Posted 2013-01-28 14:53:42 and read 11414 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 119):
Plus is Trenton given low priority because it seems like my flight is delayed longer than most of the flights in Philly. The aircraft for the flight from Orlando arrived on-time from Denver.

There is a risk in flying an airline with one flight per day (and limited backup), from an airport without any other alternatives, on a day with really crappy weather. I had this problem, to some extent, up at SWF. In your case, you have all the ingredients for a snafu, all working against you. Bad luck, but I don't think you can blame the airport alone, or the airline alone.

-Rampart

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: point2point
Posted 2013-01-28 16:00:39 and read 11367 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 120):
My flight just canceled and best they can do is Tommorrow at 1015pm
Quoting rampart (Reply 121):
There is a risk in flying an airline with one flight per day (and limited backup), from an airport without any other alternatives, on a day with really crappy weather. I had this problem, to some extent, up at SWF. In your case, you have all the ingredients for a snafu, all working against you. Bad luck, but I don't think you can blame the airport alone, or the airline alone.

In a small way, this has already got to be a nightmare for F9, but hopefully they can have a better idea of how to prepare with this going forward. Yes, this is a weather delay, and they are going to happen, and pax probably will understand in this situation since F9 doesn't have control of this. But..... sometimes technical difficulties with F9 here will also happen, hopefully as few as possible, and along with the weather factor and maybe other factors, cancellations will start adding up. And if they add up to one too many at some point, the reputation on the reliance of flights to/from TTN becomes not good and potentially will drive pax away. Then low fares may be the only thing holding the pax at that point.

With all of the above said, would it be wise for F9/Republic to somehow maintain at least one aircraft at TTN, or make sure that some kind of plane is there a lot of the time for situations such as this? I know F9 is stretched, but maybe Republic has that lift? Hopefully F9 can quickly grasp what learning curve is involved with this situation and with luck can get through an easy and successful introduction, but once some higher number of flights are in play here, having back-up options may require $$$$ to maintain, but necessary in order to facilitate a favorable reliability with TTN and F9?

I'd also add that I believe that this is okay here in that I believe there isn't the same scheduled flight tomorrow, which would already hopefully be filled, so that most of today's pax couldn't just find a seat on tomorrow's plane. Where would the back-up plane be?

All the best to those in the wearied whether East right now........


 

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-28 16:21:07 and read 11346 times.

I'm not blaming the airline or airport, just a bit frustrated. My biggest concern is with the state of the terminal they do need to make modifications so that they have a bathroom and vending machine atleast past security. Security was nice though, they did let people back to the terminal through a door that led to baggage claim and back upstairs to the check-in area but something permanant needs to be done. On a positive note, I accidently put my brand new unopened tube of toothpaste that was too large in my carry on instead of my checked bag as I had planned. The guy had to confiscate it (he asked me if I wanted to bring it back to my car) and when my flight was canceled he found me in the waiting area and gave it back to me. They were from ACY.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2013-01-28 16:25:05 and read 11340 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 120):
My flight just canceled and best they can do is Tommorrow at 1015pm

That is going to be often. You are basically in the best case scenario in a cancellation for frontier at TTN. They have no other airlines to fall back and rebook and not alot of planes out there. Makes a little scared to book TTN now.

I have flown and booked allegiant quite often and always saw delays even if its hours late ot the next morning etc when they operate these spoke type roles a true cancellation is tough to rebook in this spoke type model. They also have multiple spares in LAS and usually have a few mad dogs on the ground anyway since they are so cheap the fleet is really not stretched even close to max

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: point2point
Posted 2013-01-28 16:31:11 and read 11320 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 123):
I'm not blaming the airline or airport, just a bit frustrated.

If it's any consolation, the snow has started in the Denver area and is falling at a good clip. Maybe Colorado and some others in the area may be joining our Eastern friends who have bad weather affecting their flights......?

 

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-28 16:33:54 and read 11330 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 123):
'm not blaming the airline or airport, just a bit frustrated.

  

It's very frustrating, I agree. I believe it is the first serious delay at TTN and it must have been quite wild weather for the Captain to decide not try it.

Hopefully, the aircraft situation improves with more flights - there will be two aircraft "based" (in schedule terms) at TTN and that may help some.

As to the terminal improvements, presumably that's underway. The contract has been approved.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: gustywinds
Posted 2013-01-28 16:47:38 and read 11399 times.

In the case of today's cancellation on TTN - MCO, the aircraft arrived MCO from DEN early, so the plane was cleaned, catered, fueled and ready to go. The crew was uneasy landing in TTN with the short runway and slick weather conditions. The flight was delayed for several hours before the decision was made to cancel the flight. F9 gave all MCO passengers travel vouchers and put everyone up in hotels. F9 scheduled an extra section from TTN to MCO for tomorrow night to accommodate all of the affected passengers. The aircraft sat at the gate in MCO with no place to go. I believe F9 did their best to make the flight happen. It had nothing to do with aircraft availability and the flight was scheduled for a fresh crew in MCO. Maybe the crew was a little overly cautious. Is TTN ready for prime time? Is F9 confident in the airport's ability to clean the runway?

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-28 17:15:42 and read 11354 times.

I don't mean to complain but the TTN pax got squat. Are you sure the MCO pax got something? I assume they were also scheduled for an extra section?

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-28 17:27:45 and read 11344 times.

My experiences with Frontier, haven't been the best. I flown them 2 times. Once from SLC-DEN they lost my luggage, I did get it back and now this. LOL

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-28 18:02:13 and read 11311 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 120):
My flight just canceled and best they can do is Tommorrow at 1015pm

I feel your pain.

Quoting mariner (Reply 126):
It's very frustrating, I agree. I believe it is the first serious delay at TTN and it must have been quite wild weather for the Captain to decide not try it.

This reminds me so much of southeast Alaska where AS aircraft may or may not get in sometimes for 2-3 days. It is extremely difficult when your community is land locked and the only way in and out is by air or sea.

As it relates to visibility and minimums AS pilots flying into Juneau gave it three attempts from both directions of the runway. Thereafter they would fly over to Sitka (a 25 minute flight) and hope the weather would break. If the minimals lifted they flew back over to Juneau and gave it three more attempts before returning to SEA; sometimes up to ANC. The flight time between Juneau and SEA was roughly a two hour and fifteen minutes.

The AS gates in SEA were really good about keeping the passengers informed about potential delays at airports up the line and kept the pax informed. AS would usually takeoff hoping the weather would clear in the 2:15 it took to fly up the British Colubia and Alaska coastline. If the pax wanted to fly or wait until the next day. If they stayed in SEA the hotels were really good about offering deep discounts. or as we referred to it as the Alaska discount. This is where community comes together.

I'm sure this flight CX has more to do with overall safety of the crew and the flying public. I'm sure the Airbus 319 has the latest avionics bells and whistles. The RNP GPS AS prototyped in Juneau in the late 1990's early 20XX has been factory issue for several years on all Boeing aircraft. The delays Juneau experienced yesteryear are nothing more than a nuisance today. Still Juneau according to a AS pilot friend of mine is loaded into AS flight simulators. Practice makes perfect.

I remember flying from Juneau-SEA SEA-BOS. BOS had terrible weather. I remember hearing the pilot say as we deplaned "that was tough" and it was a bumpy landing. I mentioned to him as I exited almost like Juneau huh Captain. He smirked back. He had a little sweat on his brow.

[Edited 2013-01-28 18:03:12]

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: nkops
Posted 2013-01-29 04:02:54 and read 11204 times.

So at what point does TTN get their own TSA personnel and not ACY?? When they go to daily flights, that is a miserable commute

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-29 05:16:02 and read 11175 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 111):
The snow melt or brine they use on the ramp and or walking bridge does tend to stain carpet and leave white blotches after it dries. Its not so bad if 1-2-3 walk on it; but 138 yikes. Lets hope F9 stocks extra aisle carpet in DEN. I suppose they could make the pax check their galoshes at the door.

For the record, TTN uses Calicum Chloride (or atleast thats what they used on the sidewalk outside the terminal), I would have gotten a picture but the Mercer County Sherriffs Department was right there and they probably would have considered it odd for someone to be taking a picture of snow melt.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: Sligo
Posted 2013-01-29 05:17:17 and read 11172 times.

Looks like they're throwing a little party at TTN
http://www.centraljersey.com/article...news/doc5106bfba9bd76047352332.txt

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: PHLJJS
Posted 2013-01-29 05:27:37 and read 11152 times.

Quoting nkops (Reply 131):
So at what point does TTN get their own TSA personnel and not ACY?? When they go to daily flights, that is a miserable commute

TTN had their own TSA personel until a few years ago when they last lost scheduled service. All of the TTN TSA personel were absorbed by PHL and ACY. It is likely that some, if not all of the TSA people working the TTN flights are somewhat local to TTN, so this is a break from the miserable commute to ACY.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-29 11:21:52 and read 11051 times.

Well it only has 1 photo (more tonight when I try again) but I posted my trip report in the trip report forum if any one is interested.

Mercer To McCoy On F9 (TTN-MCO) Part 1 (by jerseyguy Jan 29 2013 in Trip Reports)

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-29 15:58:18 and read 10997 times.

This is some kind of joke, isn't it? Where's the Camera??? My replacement flight is now DELAYED. Ok not by much but still its the point of the whole thing, I'm already 30 hours late.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: rampart
Posted 2013-01-29 17:08:19 and read 10933 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 136):

This is some kind of joke, isn't it? Where's the Camera??? My replacement flight is now DELAYED. Ok not by much but still its the point of the whole thing, I'm already 30 hours late.

If I didn't know better, I might guess that you don't fly much out of New Jersey in the Winter. Continental, er, United has it easy up at EWR to monkey around with alternate flights (which doesn't exist at TTN), but is also hamstrung by the delays prone to EWR... or the same story at LGA, and JFK, and PHL. I'm assuming TTN falls under the same crowded airspace issues that the rest have?

-Rampart

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-29 20:33:51 and read 10834 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 136):

It looks like jerseyguy is on his merry way to MCO http://flightaware.com/live/flight/FFT2002

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: rduco
Posted 2013-01-29 21:38:54 and read 10782 times.

kind of scanned the topic // anyone think this could be a preempt to PeoplExpress(PEX)? // could they be the only one taking them seriously // or consider them a partner again?

[Edited 2013-01-29 21:40:57]

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-29 23:27:16 and read 10747 times.

Rampart,
Yeah, I overreacted to the delay a little bit, just a bit frustrating when you lose 30 hours of your trip and end up arriving at 1am. Funny thing is we were about 30 minutes delayed on departure but luckily it was all made up in the air.

I am happy to report that like the pax on the MCO-TTN flight I received a $200 travel voucher. Which I suspect will help most people give Frontier another shot but some people are going to be turned off by this to the point that they are done with Frontier

[Edited 2013-01-29 23:33:02]

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: rampart
Posted 2013-01-30 00:20:12 and read 10722 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 140):
I am happy to report that like the pax on the MCO-TTN flight I received a $200 travel voucher. Which I suspect will help most people give Frontier another shot but some people are going to be turned off by this to the point that they are done with Frontier

Glad they came through for you, both finally getting your flight, and a voucher. F9 and all the rest must realize how fickle customers can be. Comes up frequently enough for the likes of Ryanair and Spirit, for whatever reasons including weather delays beyond control, yet a large majority come back for more.

-Rampart

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: Sligo
Posted 2013-01-30 05:13:10 and read 10698 times.

Frontier Airlines' shifting market strategy avoids competition:
http://www.denverpost.com/business/c...market-strategy-avoids-competition

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-30 06:44:41 and read 10665 times.

Quoting Sligo (Reply 142):

Good article thanks for posting. This caught my eye

"To be effective in Trenton, Shurz said Frontier must raise awareness about the airport"

It appears F9 advertising blitz for TTN is well underway. Courtesy DP.com

"The airport sits just off of Interstate 95, which is now speckled with lighted billboards for Frontier Airlines. Frontier's logo and introductory fares adorn the walls of New Jersey and Philadelphia's transit stations and inside trains"

The airline has handed out discount codes and gift cards, advertised on radio traffic reports and plans to advertise on the tops of pizza boxes near Princeton University and Rutgers University."

I still like my idea of printed brochures at the Interstate Welcome Centers augmented with lighted signage maybe 2' x' 3' on the wall. In lieu of the pizza boxes I might try Subway. College students are eating healthier today. Also those little 2" x 2" stickers I've seen attached to my Saturday & Sunday newspaper might be another economical marketing/advertising idea.

In lieu of the 4 x TTN-ATL service. As a secondary airports go I might have tried CHA for no other reason to catch the traffic around CHA and the north Georgia catchment area. (north of Atlanta) I say this because ATL sits in very south Atlanta. if your driving from the north the traffic like any larger metropolis becomes a parking lot much of the day The by-pass does help. CHA and Atlanta as a crow flies is about an hour. I've drove from a hotel on Peachtree St. in Atlanta to CHA in just under a hour and a half. Departing the hotel about 10:00 for a 1:00 PM flight. Additionally CHA is now home to the only Volkswagon manufacturing facility in the U.S.

I also think F9 may want to keep BNA in the back of their minds for additional frequency. Yes even though WN has a significant presence at BNA. Nashville is building the largest convention center in America; larger than SAN and MCO. I'm hearing conventions are already being booked into 2015. The new convention center is scheduled for a soft opening in March/April 2013. TTN-BNA maybe.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-30 15:02:55 and read 10509 times.

I was going to do another trip report but after I got everything down a.net crapped out and lost everything so here is pics from TTN

Arrival Area (Pre-security)


Gate Area


Gate 1 (Yes there is a gate 2 I think its a broken jetbridge)


Gate 1 podium

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-30 16:22:33 and read 10458 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 143):
I also think F9 may want to keep BNA in the back of their minds for additional frequency.

Nashville gets a plug courtesy of the NY Times http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/09/us...spotlight.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: NKOPS
Posted 2013-01-31 08:28:20 and read 10326 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 144):

out of curiosity, what was the passenger loads like?

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-01-31 09:26:25 and read 10292 times.

I didn't count the seats but I'd estimate 80-85%

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-01-31 10:02:47 and read 10284 times.

Assuming its the same airframe. The RSW-TTN turn according to their media release is only allowing for a 10 minute turn http://media.flyfrontier.com/article....cfm?article_id=5428&view_id=1290&

It arrives in RSW at 5:25 P.M. and departs back to TTN at 5:35 P.M. I realize the schedule is padded and the flight will probably arrive sooner or make up time in flight. It takes 10 minutes to get the cargo hold unloaded for the inbound segment.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-01-31 10:16:25 and read 10270 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 148):

Assuming its the same airframe. The RSW-TTN turn according to their media release is only allowing for a 10 minute turn http://media.flyfrontier.com/article....cfm?article_id=5428&view_id=1290&

I think it is an aircraft switch, Gent. The DEN-RSW flight arrives at about 4.40 and I think it goes on to TTN, while the TTN flight goes back to DEN from RSW.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-02-03 13:52:36 and read 10092 times.

Here's a video of my landing on F9 918 today at TTN. Sorry its not better, it was just on my iphone thru the window.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrSrBDZhNXE

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-02-03 14:08:12 and read 10020 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 150):
Here's a video of my landing on F9 918 today at TTN

Nice video. It looks like there is a lot of semi-rural out there. More than I remember anyways. As stated throughout these threads the property does need some work though. The runway looked like asphalt and a little rough around the edges. The ATC tower also looks very 1960-ish. This reminds me of a old military airport which was forgot about. NAS Alameda is another.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-02-03 14:10:51 and read 10149 times.

Shots of the Baggage Claim at TTN

From outside onto the belt



The belt

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: STT757
Posted 2013-02-04 08:33:20 and read 9960 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 151):
Nice video. It looks like there is a lot of semi-rural out there.

In the video right before they touch down you can see the farm adjacent to the airport, it's a dairy farm run by the New Jersey Department of Corrections. It's a prison farm, and it's actually quite nice.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: point2point
Posted 2013-02-04 09:19:01 and read 9902 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 153):

In the video right before they touch down you can see the farm adjacent to the airport, it's a dairy farm run by the New Jersey Department of Corrections. It's a prison farm, and it's actually quite nice

Well..... I have to say that this certainly gives a whole new meaning to a milk run, eh?

 

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-02-04 09:54:51 and read 9851 times.

More-so out of curiosity; where does TTN purchase its jet fuel from. I would guess from the Port of PHL. The ten or so times I've landed in PHL I see a bunch of white bulk fuel storage tanks near the port. I would think there would be a jet fuel refinery neaerby.

DL purchased a refinery across the state line in Pennsylvania. I'm not sure how close it is to TTN or if they sell it to their competition.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-02-04 15:05:21 and read 9747 times.

DL's refinery is in Trainer, PA which is south of PHL on the Delaware river, a few miles north of the DE border. So odds are they would go to PHL first before asking DL.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-02-12 07:49:22 and read 9442 times.

And the first monthly TTN "Takes off Sweepstakes" winner is http://media.flyfrontier.com/article....cfm?article_id=5434&view_id=1290&

[Edited 2013-02-12 08:33:56]

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: JBAirwaysFan
Posted 2013-02-12 08:20:12 and read 9419 times.

http://www.flyfrontier.com/trenton

Cute sweepstakes title. They encourage passengers to find out why "Flying from Philly is Silly"
Clever, very clever I must say.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-02-15 01:18:49 and read 9198 times.

Trenton is applying for a $2.5 million dollar grant from the state to rehab 2 more of its taxiways.

http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2...mercer_county_to_apply_for_25.html

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-02-16 11:46:13 and read 9008 times.

I posted a few days ago about the congestion directly over TTN as a north-south and east-west turning point. Thirty five or so miles SSW of NYC makes it about right.

Although this live flight tracker will vary throughout the day. It shows a lot of congestion on top of TTN http://www.flightradar24.com/ I believe NYC hands southerly traffic off to PHL and so fourth. I'm not sure about east-west traffic. I know CLE has an ATC center as does IND. I suspect there may be one or two more between NYC-CLE for east-west and west east traffic.

[Edited 2013-02-16 11:47:51]

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-02-17 20:02:22 and read 8733 times.

If TTN is looking for a surplus loading bridge it looks like the POC below is their man as the State Agent for Surplus Property SASP for the state of New Jersey.

Sergeant Gary Bezilla
New Jersey State Police
P.O. Box 7068
West Trenton, NJ 08628
PHONE: (609) 882-2000, Ext 2165
FAX: (609) 530-3649

The SASP is the State liaison to the Feds specifically the GSA. The SASP should have the capability to search for the property world wide via the GSA who also handles some property for the military after a certain time threshold has elapsed. I believe the the federal supply classification for loading bridges is 1730 which falls under the ground support equipment classification.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-02-18 19:06:16 and read 8564 times.

Here's a video clip I found of the Baggage Claim at TTN. Having been there it does give a good feel for the process, though on my flight they never activated the buzzer or the light.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mULPvwWyg5s

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-02-18 19:19:30 and read 8570 times.

F9 TTN operation reminds me of the 60's and 70's television sitcom Green Acres; specifically the episodes which showed the Pixley airport.

Not that its bad, it is small. I've always liked quaint. It seems so funny to see an airport smaller than some of the smaller communities in Alaska. TTN is about the same size as Sitka, Alaska which serves a community of 12K or so. TTN potentially serves a catchment area of 2.5 million.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: F9animal
Posted 2013-02-18 22:18:04 and read 8489 times.

I suspect that Seigel will be gone in a year. The longest job he held was at Gate Gourmet, which was 5 years. He has proven in every job that he hates his workers. US was the eye opener. Gate Gourmet could not be happier without him. And now he is back to his same old tactics at F9.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-02-18 22:22:51 and read 8481 times.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 164):
I suspect that Seigel will be gone in a year. The longest job he held was at Gate Gourmet, which was 5 years. He has proven in every job that he hates his workers. US was the eye opener. Gate Gourmet could not be happier without him. And now he is back to his same old tactics at F9.

I suspect he will be gone once separation is achieved. It's why he is at Frontier.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 164):
The longest job he held was at Gate Gourmet, which was 5 years.

As I explained to you before, he is shepherded by Texas Pacific Group - TPG - to fix companies they own that need fixing. Once that is down TPG moves him on. He does the hard work, the tough work, and sometimes the ruthless work.

In less than a year he has turned Frontier around financially. You may not like it - or him - but that's what he is supposed to do.

mariner

[Edited 2013-02-18 22:33:01]

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-02-18 23:08:40 and read 8438 times.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 164):

Could we please keep on topic, if you need to
comment about Seigel then do it in the Frontier part 41 thread this is the Frontier Trenton thread

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-02-19 01:18:17 and read 8448 times.

Here's a TTN ad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLFXjSSnHVI&feature=player_embedded

Enjoy.  

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-02-19 01:39:07 and read 8414 times.

Glad to see them come up with an ad. Wonder where they are going to run those? Cable? Philly stations? New York??
Though nobody watches commericals anymore everyone fast forwards thru with their DVR.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-02-19 02:49:04 and read 8407 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 168):
Though nobody watches commericals anymore everyone fast forwards thru with their DVR.

That'll be news to the auto companies.

I watch commercials, and I have young friends who prefer the commercials to the programs.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-02-19 04:58:46 and read 8345 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 169):

Maybe I exaggerated a bit but TV commericals are far less effective today then they were 20 years ago. I know a lot of people who watch very few things live. Exceptions are sporting events (obviously) and other live shows like the live results show of Idol and things like that.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: rampart
Posted 2013-02-19 05:52:20 and read 8298 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 167):

Here's a TTN ad:

If only cheeky spokesanimals were enough to carry an airline. Frontier would be the world's largest and most profitable.

Quoting mariner (Reply 169):
I watch commercials, and I have young friends who prefer the commercials to the programs.

I'm with you. Maybe it's a demographic thing. Then again, I'm the one telling my dad to not mute the commercials or flip channels.

-Rampart

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: rampart
Posted 2013-02-19 05:55:21 and read 8291 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 167):
Here's a TTN ad:

Does anyone know if that's Ray Romano as the voice of the rabbit? Sounds like him, and Manny the Mammoth from Ice Age.

-Rampart

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-02-19 07:46:59 and read 8197 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 167):

The critic in me wishes the ad company would have photo-shopped the TTN airport or surrounding area in lieu of using the same background F9 has used in other commercials. The infrastructure seen in the commercial is definitely not TTN I might have incorporated "Bigger is not always Better" when compared to PHL and EWR. I see they did get the free parking in.

I would be neat to see this add on an episode of the Amazing Race. It would fit neatly. As many of you may remember in a prior season episode. Although it was confused with Frontier Flying Service; F9 was the go to airline in ANC when the Amazing Race traveled from ANC to DEN.

The Amazing Race has won nine Emmy's through 2012 in the best best reality show category and has a huge fan following. In exchange for the add F9 might offer airline flights on a future episode(s); say to Costa Rica or anywhere else the show needs to travel.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-02-19 09:35:36 and read 8127 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 170):
Maybe I exaggerated a bit but TV commericals are far less effective today then they were 20 years ago. I know a lot of people who watch very few things live. Exceptions are sporting events (obviously) and other live shows like the live results show of Idol and things like that.

I'm still not sure of your point. Are you saying they shouldn't have made the commercial?

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-02-19 09:49:12 and read 8115 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 168):
Though nobody watches commericals anymore everyone fast forwards thru with their DVR.
Quoting mariner (Reply 174):
Though nobody watches commercials anymore everyone fast forwards thru with their DVR.

M,

I suspect Jerseyguy comment is a general characterization or rationalization. Many people because of shift work or a variety of other reasons record programs and fast forward through the commercials when they are finally watched. I find myself doing it sometimes when I record programs.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-02-19 18:06:17 and read 8004 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 173):
The infrastructure seen in the commercial is definitely not TTN

I'm pretty sure the background was DEN, you can see the pedestrian bridge to the A gates behind Flip at one point.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 173):
The critic in me wishes the ad company would have photo-shopped the TTN airport or surrounding area in lieu of using the same background F9 has used in other commercials.

That would have totally screwed up the commercial for a couple of reasons.

#1 Flip the Dolphin doesn't know Trenton has an airport (such as most people). If Flip was at TTN, he would have definitely known about it.

#2. TTN doesn't have jetways and wouldn't have 4-5 planes next to each other on the tarmac. I believe DEN is where the planes meet and talk because they all end up there from time to time and there are lots of gates. Maybe they could have superimposed PHL but probably not worth it especially since most people don't know or care what airport is being portrayed.

(I take that back Trenton does have 1 jetway but its broken and not in use)

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-02-19 18:09:13 and read 8053 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 174):

I'm still not sure of your point. Are you saying they shouldn't have made the commercial?

Good question, what is my point?  . My point is that it is far less effective than people would think. Its fine that they created the commerical, they need to as much as possible to spread the word that as Flip says "Trenton has an airport"

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-02-19 19:07:38 and read 8013 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 177):
Good question, what is my point?  . My point is that it is far less effective than people would think. Its fine that they created the commerical, they need to as much as possible to spread the word that as Flip says "Trenton has an airport"

This is one way of doing it. It isn't the only way - it's one of many.

From radio to the billboards to the Sweepstakes to the tv commercial. To the metered use of credit cards, to the direct emailing - I can't remember 'em all.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: rampart
Posted 2013-02-19 20:53:53 and read 7952 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 177):
My point is that it is far less effective than people would think. Its fine that they created the commerical, they need to as much as possible to spread the word that as Flip says "Trenton has an airport"

Well, I've seen the commercial... on Youtube. Not TV. Most commercials are available that way, particularly the good ones. Far more mileage than just-TV. They also appear in full or part before reading online news stories, in front of Youtube videos, etc.

-Rampart

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-02-20 07:56:25 and read 7866 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 176):
Flip the Dolphin doesn't know Trenton has an airport

But dolphins have a keen sense for finding things (I think its a sonar/radar combi) RNP might be a better term.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 176):
TTN doesn't have jetways and wouldn't have 4-5 planes next to each other on the tarmac

I never said it had to be accurate! Where nostalgia enters the equations It would have been nice to see a rural setting and maybe the 1960-ish ATC tower which reminds me of an old military tower.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-02-20 09:54:03 and read 7823 times.

Here's another one:



mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-02-20 11:52:14 and read 7743 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 173):
I see they did get the free parking in.

I stand corrected the ad commercial mentions affordable parking not free parking. Perhaps a sign of things to come.

Paid parking at TTN would be a revenue stream but it could be a step backwards if they are trying to woo flyers from PHL and EWR. A small $2 or $3 fee might fly which is what many U.S. airports charge for an hour of short term parking. At BNA the first 20 minutes of bullpen parking inside the short term parking lot is free.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-02-20 17:07:09 and read 7660 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 181):

Actually, I don't know if this was before or after they decieded to advertise with them but the Trenton TItans hockey team was on my flight coming back from a game in Orlando.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 182):
Paid parking at TTN would be a revenue stream but it could be a step backwards if they are trying to woo flyers from PHL and EWR. A small $2 or $3 fee might fly which is what many U.S. airports charge for an hour of short term parking.

Yes, they have to be very careful what they do with the parking situation. They should allow the market to grow before charging, although they do need to fix up the terminal. Before they could have just added a PFC and nobody would have noticed because the fare would have stayed the same the taxes would have just gone up by $2-3 but now, a PFC means that the $49 fare between TTN and RDU is now $51-52 thanks to you the new you have to include taxes law.

BTW. Happy a.net bday Gent

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: Jerseyguy
Posted 2013-02-20 22:07:30 and read 7588 times.

I read over at Flyertalk that MSY is gone (I would think seasonally because the fares were high up until beginning of June) and RSW and FLL lose 1x weekly. If MSY is truly gone could we expect another city or increased service to an existing city to be announced?

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: Jerseyguy
Posted 2013-02-21 00:43:06 and read 7553 times.

Must be a slow news day.

Trenton Mercer adds second free parking lot
http://www.trentonian.com/article/20...rking-lot-coming-to-mercer-airport

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jetsetter629
Posted 2013-02-21 05:50:59 and read 7507 times.

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 184):
I read over at Flyertalk that MSY is gone (I would think seasonally because the fares were high up until beginning of June) and RSW and FLL lose 1x weekly. If MSY is truly gone could we expect another city or increased service to an existing city to be announced?

MSY ends on July 29 - I hope as well it's seasonal as I can't imagine that New Orleans has the same draw in the hot and sticky months of August through October. But if they are adding another destination, don't you think July 29 is late in the summer season to launch another route?

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: Jerseyguy
Posted 2013-02-21 06:10:10 and read 7488 times.

I believe they would only be adding another destination if MSY is being dropped for good.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-02-23 08:04:30 and read 7295 times.

I think the headline should read the ATC tower could close as it is manned and funded federally, not necessarily the airport in a federal sequestration. We have to separate federal from State run facilities. TTN being a state run airport.

http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2...irport_in_ewin_2.html#incart_river

In a worst case scenario I suppose F9 could fly in and out of TTN without an air traffic control tower. I understand DEN is expecting a blizzard this weekend which could make it interesting. It is crowed airspace over TTN.

I also enjoyed reading some of the comments posted to the article above from locals. Some of the drama queens are quite funny.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: Sligo
Posted 2013-02-23 08:21:10 and read 7266 times.

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 187):

I believe they would only be adding another destination if MSY is being dropped for good.

I hatw to sound like a broken record, but I'd prefer they add frequency to some of the business markets to save them from potential irrelevancy for the business travelers who would otherwise find the service compelling...

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2013-02-23 13:12:11 and read 7145 times.

It's probably too early but Denver is suppose to see a lot of wind in this storm so it would be cool if they could somehow use ttn to keep even some people out of Denver. These storms make frontiers customer service a disaster in den. Way worse than ua or wn they have other cities frontier is just awful in these scenarios they need a second city but ttn sadly can't help much but maybe could do something

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-02-23 17:02:20 and read 7053 times.

Quoting Sligo (Reply 189):
I hatw to sound like a broken record, but I'd prefer they add frequency to some of the business markets to save them from potential irrelevancy for the business travelers who would otherwise find the service compelling...

Yeah, there current schedule to Midway is a no-go for most business travelers. Their flight MDW-TTN 1135-1425 requires an additional overnight stay in Chicago and they lose most of their day at home or at the office in the Trenton area. They can't even finish up on Friday night, stay in Chicago and come back home on Saturday for a weekend home as the service is except Saturday. The TTN-MDW flight isn't great either because it gets them in at noon and they lose half the day. To be fair though they aren't going after business travelers though. If they do drop MSY they would have 4X weekly to play with, might be able to get 2 flights a day on important business days.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 188):
think the headline should read the ATC tower could close as it is manned and funded federally, not necessarily the airport in a federal sequestration. We have to separate federal from State run facilities. TTN being a state run airport.

First don't think that sequester will ever happen, if they don't find a deal they will just kick the can down the road like they always do. It works for the federal budget. Second TTN is operated by the county not the state.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: STT757
Posted 2013-02-24 08:32:57 and read 6905 times.

I'm starting to see F9 commercials for TTN here in Monmouth County, they were on CBS 2 NY.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: MSYtristar
Posted 2013-02-24 08:51:25 and read 6896 times.

Quoting jetsetter629 (Reply 186):
I hope as well it's seasonal as I can't imagine that New Orleans has the same draw in the hot and sticky months of August through October

Makes sense to me. Tourism falls off a cliff in August and September. It picks up again by mid October. I live here and July-September, especially, are not good months to just go outside and play tourist for a day. It wouldn't surprise me to see it come back in late October/early November, something like that.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-02-24 13:05:21 and read 6821 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 191):
Second TTN is operated by the county not the state.

Yes but I suspect Mercer County like any other county in America receives a significant amount of their operating funds be it tax sales tax dollars from the State with additional revenue streams coming from the feds for federally mandated programs i.e. maintaining state and federal highways. These funds can be reprogrammed at the State level.

This would generally exclude the various grant programs.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: rampart
Posted 2013-02-24 14:30:16 and read 6783 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 181):
Here's another one:
Quoting STT757 (Reply 192):
I'm starting to see F9 commercials for TTN here in Monmouth County, they were on CBS 2 NY.

And for those unacquainted with the NY metro area (I know you know, STT757), that's not just Monmouth County, but the entire NY City market, 7.5 million viewers. Not that all 7.5 million of them got to see the Frontier commercial, but it's the largest chance the airline gets out of one station. I wonder what the cost is for a 30-second spot? Probably a lot more than Denver. I assume then that they are advertising in Philly, too?

I'm assuming that CBS 2 isn't micro-marketing, with advertisements specufic to certain counties. Though come to think of it, they might. Someone here in broadcasting would know?

-Rampart

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2013-02-24 15:27:56 and read 6748 times.

There is absolutely no generic price it would depend on how long the commercial, how many they purchased, time, and date etc.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-02-24 16:56:50 and read 6721 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 192):

I'm starting to see F9 commercials for TTN here in Monmouth County, they were on CBS 2 NY.

Cool, looks like F9 is really trying to make a go of it at TTN.

Quoting rampart (Reply 195):
I'm assuming that CBS 2 isn't micro-marketing, with advertisements specufic to certain counties. Though come to think of it, they might. Someone here in broadcasting would know?

I could be wrong but micro-marketing would only be available via cable or fiber optic ( such as Verizon FIOS, etc). What TV provider do you have STT? Cablevision? FIOS? Satellite?

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-02-24 17:02:06 and read 6729 times.

RITA Stats just came out for November.

5 MCO Flight with a total of 619 passengers
Average pax load = 123.8 or 89.71

Load factor isn't everything but thats pretty good. Wonder what the average fare was?

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-02-25 09:20:39 and read 6566 times.

Quoting rampart (Reply 195):
Not that all 7.5 million of them got to see the Frontier commercial,

I thought that was Time Square alone!

I wonder what it would cost F9 to air the commercial on the T.S. digital Magnatron or whatever they call it these days. Another idea might be to put place signage in Grand Central Station.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: rampart
Posted 2013-02-25 09:59:01 and read 6523 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 199):
I wonder what it would cost F9 to air the commercial on the T.S. digital Magnatron or whatever they call it these days. Another idea might be to put place signage in Grand Central Station.

It wasn't that long ago that they had a 1/2 scale (guessing, maybe it was 1/3 ) BA Concorde at the south end of Times Square, I think perched above the subway entrance. It's a high-rise now, I think, so much has changed. Do the same with a giant F9 A320 model painted with an appropriate critter. That would be audacious.

-Rampart

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: STT757
Posted 2013-02-25 10:22:31 and read 6499 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 197):
What TV provider do you have STT? Cablevision

Yup, Cablevision.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: Flytravel
Posted 2013-02-25 10:29:49 and read 6553 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 197):
I could be wrong but micro-marketing would only be available via cable or fiber optic ( such as Verizon FIOS, etc). What TV provider do you have STT? Cablevision? FIOS? Satellite?

I don't think any of the NY broadcast or Philly broadcast stations micro-market, and most stations in general do not do this unless the station has a full power translator station like 70-100+ miles away or more. At one time, WLNY had a separate cable feed for outside of LI, but it was to comply with syndication exclusivity.

Anyways, I'm somewhat surprised that it is advertising on NYC TV since maybe less than 15% of the greater region is within one hour of TTN, unless it wasn't that expensive. ACY used to advertise (or maybe it still does) on Philly TV, but I'd say about 50-60% of the Philly region, including Center City and NE Philly, all of SJ except maybe Salem Co., is within an hour (maybe 1 hr 10 mins) away of ACY. Plus in that case it was the airport paying for it, not the airline and Philly advertising is less expensive than NYC advertising.

[Edited 2013-02-25 10:35:37]

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: Flytravel
Posted 2013-02-25 11:00:53 and read 6520 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 191):
Yeah, there current schedule to Midway is a no-go for most business travelers. Their flight MDW-TTN 1135-1425 requires an additional overnight stay in Chicago and they lose most of their day at home or at the office in the Trenton area. They can't even finish up on Friday night, stay in Chicago and come back home on Saturday for a weekend home as the service is except Saturday. The TTN-MDW flight isn't great either because it gets them in at noon and they lose half the day. To be fair though they aren't going after business travelers though

I think increasing MDW service and ATL service would be sensible, since it's popular with business travel, and leisure/VFR. Even year round. Also, given the high fares/lower service by WN at PHL, pax might seek alternatives and TTN is an alternative. The AA/US merger might lead to less service and/or higher fares, to Chicago from that combined carrier as well, although AA, US and UA just match WN.

WN's current lowest WGA on EWR-MDW is $147, PHL-MDW is $187-188, PHL-ATL on FL is $191 (one stops not priced lower), EWR-ATL is $130 (with a one stop). EWR seems competitiv, but the PHL fares seem high compared to other markets.

Another route I wonder if F9 might consider is TTN-DFW. Would it be too long? The AA/US merger will lead to little in way of competition on PHL-DFW nonstop.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-02-25 13:42:57 and read 6444 times.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 203):
I think increasing MDW service and ATL service would be sensible

Concur, if you open the RITA Transtats data without doing any sort of specific search. The top ten domestic routes populate. NYC-Chicago is #1; NYC-Atlanta is #5; http://www.transtats.bts.gov/

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-02-25 17:58:07 and read 6349 times.

TTN ATC tower to remain open if federal sequestration rears its head,

http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2...irport_in_ewin_3.html#incart_river

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-02-25 18:12:57 and read 6332 times.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 202):
I don't think any of the NY broadcast or Philly broadcast stations micro-market, and most stations in general do not do this unless the station has a full power translator station like 70-100+ miles away or more. At one time, WLNY had a separate cable feed for outside of LI, but it was to comply with syndication exclusivity.

Perhaps they don't do this anymore, but cable providers have some time when they can air local commericals instead of the commericals being aired by the station. These local commericals can be broadcast to certain TV areas within their system. So F9 can contract with lets say Cablevision (which is a cable company that serves parts of NYC Metro area) and tell them to air it in lets say their Monmouth/Millstone area which covers western Monmouth and parts of Western Ocean Counties and the Hamilton viewing area which includes Hamilton, Trenton, Yardville. This is far cheaper then advertising on WCBS to all of the NYC Metro and is more targeted. They can also advertise with the cable companies who serve southern Middlesex county like Jamesburg and Cranbury (which I think is Comcast) .

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 203):
WN's current lowest WGA on EWR-MDW is $147, PHL-MDW is $187-188, PHL-ATL on FL is $191 (one stops not priced lower), EWR-ATL is $130 (with a one stop). EWR seems competitiv, but the PHL fares seem high compared to other markets.

PHL is definately expensive to CHI but I think EWR is still expensive as well. EWR is $300RT while F9 is offering somedays out of TTN at $118RT, even at $189RT its still a big adventage over EWR.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: crj900lr
Posted 2013-02-25 18:32:25 and read 6336 times.

Quoting JBAirwaysFan (Reply 158):
"Flying from Philly is Silly"

Really? is this the best they could come up with. I wouldn't worry, the whole TTN operation will be done in 6-8 months. The people of TTN will be treated to the same fine service that the people of COU were treated to by the great Frontier Airlines. Here today, gone tomorrow.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-02-25 18:39:39 and read 6314 times.

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 207):
he people of TTN will be treated to the same fine service that the people of COU were treated to by the great Frontier Airlines.

Use it or lose it.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: Flytravel
Posted 2013-02-26 07:48:57 and read 6183 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 206):
Perhaps they don't do this anymore, but cable providers have some time when they can air local commericals instead of the commericals being aired by the station. These local commericals can be broadcast to certain TV areas within their system. So F9 can contract with lets say Cablevision (which is a cable company that serves parts of NYC Metro area) and tell them to air it in lets say their Monmouth/Millstone area which covers western Monmouth and parts of Western Ocean Counties and the Hamilton viewing area which includes Hamilton, Trenton, Yardville. This is far cheaper then advertising on WCBS to all of the NYC Metro and is more targeted. They can also advertise with the cable companies who serve southern Middlesex county like Jamesburg and Cranbury (which I think is Comcast) .

Local advertisers can buy ad time through cable, but those then air on cable channels (e.g. ESPN, Lifetime), not WCBS, WNBC, etc. STT757 mentioned CBS2.

That is, the local advertising that Cablevision profits from are from commericals inserted on cable channels. Cablevision can't override the local commercials aired/sold by the broadcast stations.

Microcasting hasn't been widely adopted via broadcast stations in that way, because a certain % of customers are on DirecTV and Dish, or receiving the channel over-the-air, and in those in targeted counties and wouldn't see then commercial making the effort somewhat futile. The difference is if there is a translator station like in Phoenix (KPNX) and Flagstaff (KNAZ) where the owner is the same and might be running different ads in Flagstaff.

[Edited 2013-02-26 07:52:17]

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-02-26 08:06:13 and read 6173 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 205):

Perhaps they updated the story to reflect the proper information but the tower will close but TTN will stay open. Frontier said their schedule will stay the same as long as the tower is not closed for a long period of time. After that the schedule might change. It also mentioned that they met with NJ Lt. Governor Gaudano to discuss the sequester AND future plans for the TTN terminal. State grant money anyone??

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 209):

Sorry I haven't had cable in years.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-02-26 08:45:44 and read 6120 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 210):
Perhaps they updated the story to reflect the proper information but the tower will close but TTN will stay open.

That is really strange it was late. I'm almost certain I read something to the extent which lead me to believe the tower would remain open with the airport. I may have over read it. My apology for any misinformation.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: JBAirwaysFan
Posted 2013-02-26 11:16:47 and read 6061 times.

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 207):
Really? is this the best they could come up with.

It works, it sends the message across. The idea is to attract locals away from using PHL and encourage them to take advantage of TTN. Though if you think you could do better then by all means let's hear it...

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-02-26 13:31:40 and read 5987 times.

Quoting JBAirwaysFan (Reply 158):
"Flying from Philly is Silly"

Although it could be interpreted to be airframe specific If the Orca tail is still around I sort of like "Free Willy from Philly" or "Don't be a Willy and fly from Philly" although that may p!ss off the PHL airport.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 206):
PHL is definitely expensive to CHI but I think EWR is still expensive as well. EWR is $300RT while F9 is offering some days out of TTN at $118RT, even at $189RT its still a big advantage over EWR.

Here's a couple for EWR "Fly Trenton It's Closer Than You Think" "Fly TTN New Jersey's Top Spot" or two for the price of one which would fit in any market "Trenton this Place is a Zoo"

I also think F9 should get John O'Hurley to do some of their voice commercials. He did some great things for an Alaska telecommunication giant. It amazing what an abundance of salmon will get you

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: ScottB
Posted 2013-02-26 14:54:24 and read 5942 times.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 209):
That is, the local advertising that Cablevision profits from are from commericals inserted on cable channels. Cablevision can't override the local commercials aired/sold by the broadcast stations.

Microcasting hasn't been widely adopted via broadcast stations in that way

It all depends on the contract with the stations. Comcast does insert ads on broadcast stations as well. Their software isn't so good; several months ago it looped the same ad continuously on a broadcast station I was watching until God-knows-when; I changed the channel. NYC would be an incredibly expensive media buy to reach a relative fraction of viewers on the southern fringe of the area.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mke717spotter
Posted 2013-02-26 23:14:47 and read 5839 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 205):
TTN ATC tower to remain open if federal sequestration rears its head,

http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2...river

Maybe not:

http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2...renton-mercer_airport_may_div.html

"Executives at Frontier Airlines, the only commercial airline that operates out of Trenton-Mercer Airport, said passengers could see more flights diverted to other airports and a flurry of other inconveniences if $600 million in federal budget cuts goes into effect as planned on Friday.

“It makes it more likely that the flight would have to divert and make it less reliable,” senior vice president Daniel Shurz said yesterday.

County Executive Brian Hughes, Frontier executives, Watson, Shurz and other officials met with Lt. Gov. Kim Guadagno yesterday afternoon at the airport to discuss the effects of the sequester.

“We have a very real possibility of the closure of the tower,” Hughes said."

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-02-27 00:41:57 and read 5814 times.

Looks like any closure wouldn't be effective until atleast 30 days from Friday.
I don't however like the comment that if its even cloudy that pilots would prefer not to land at TTN. I understand why but that could be quite often.

http://www.philly.com/business/?wss=...siness&id=193432891&viewAll=y#more

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-02-27 08:11:43 and read 5714 times.

Quoting mke717spotter (Reply 215):

Having worked around the federal government for twenty five years I still think a lot of beltway bloviating and scare tactics are in play. Although TTN appears on the FAA 100 possible list http://www.faa.gov/news/updates/media/Facilities_Could_Be_Closed.pdf

TTN has one advantage in that it manned/staffed until 2200 hours (10:00 P.M.) "The tower is usually manned by a seven-person staff from 6 a.m. to 10 p.m. daily" thus the midnight shift is not in play. We also have remember one of the top if not the top job of the federal government is to provide for the safety and protection of its citizens. You would think the FAA would curtail midnight shifts before they would close an entire tower. If they don't; their priorities are in the wrong place.

"Aviation Administration to furlough workers, cutting midnight shifts at 60 air control towers nationwide and closing 100 towers at smaller airports, officials said".

It looks like the FAA currently has 549 Federal Air Regs (FAR) Part 139 Class I, II, and III airports; (TTN is Class 1) not all of them have ATC towers but if a 100 are in play you would think the greater PHL and NYC area would be spared. As I wrote previously the airspace over TTN much of it handled by ATC center operations is one of the busiest air corridors in the U.S.

Quoting mke717spotter (Reply 215):
Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 216):
I don't however like the comment that if its even cloudy that pilots would prefer not to land at TTN.


It makes you wonder what's going to happen when the 11;39 P.M. flight flight from ATL arrives in TTN later in the Spring. Based on the current 10:00 P.M. closing time F9 is going to have to land with a closed tower. It could get interesting.

[Edited 2013-02-27 08:14:11]

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-02-27 20:29:31 and read 5550 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 217):
It makes you wonder what's going to happen when the 11;39 P.M. flight flight from ATL arrives in TTN later in the Spring. Based on the current 10:00 P.M. closing time F9 is going to have to land with a closed tower. It could get interesting.

I assume they were expecting to be able to convince the FAA to extend the hours???

In looking at some pictures NJ.com has on its website, I found one that is a bit interesting. Its a picture of a meeting between Frontier execs, Lt. Govenor Kim Gaudano and TTN/Mercer County execs in what I assume used to be the Runway Resturant (from the large windows looking out over the tarmac) and you now see rows of seating the kind they have in the waiting area at TTN. Could they be already starting renovations to reduce crowding?

http://media.nj.com/the-times/photo/2013/02/12334715-standard.jpg

Speaking of crowding this picture of the main parking lot at TTN shows (and the description confirms) that the lot is pretty full always a good sign.

http://media.nj.com/the-times/photo/2013/02/12334717-standard.jpg

[Edited 2013-02-27 20:36:21]

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2013-02-27 21:01:12 and read 5518 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 218):
In looking at some pictures NJ.com has on its website, I found one that is a bit interesting. Its a picture of a meeting between Frontier execs, Lt. Govenor Kim Gaudano and TTN/Mercer County execs in what I assume used to be the Runway Resturant (from the large windows looking out over the tarmac) and you now see rows of seating the kind they have in the waiting area at TTN. Could they be already starting renovations to reduce crowding?

possible i guess i had lunch a few times there, loved it. The restaurant always had great views and you did look down at the plane or occasionally planes.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-02-28 06:52:03 and read 5418 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 218):
Speaking of crowding this picture of the main parking lot at TTN shows (and the description confirms) that the lot is pretty full always a good sign.

Does TTN have check and balance internal controls system in place to weed out potential abuse of those who may use the TTN free parking option who are not flying? Such as a park and ride. I would think it could be controlled with a boarding pass or ticket on F9 (I almost wrote or other carrier) Otherwise non-fliers could be taking valuable parking spaces.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-02-28 08:04:36 and read 5365 times.

Unless it's operator error on my part and I tried it several times It appears the TTN tab on the F9 interactive routmap http://www.flyfrontier.com/plan-book/routes-schedules/route-map is inoperable.

The route map populates TTN but the flight segments from TTN to other cities do not populate.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: IllinoisMan
Posted 2013-02-28 14:38:57 and read 5283 times.

If F9 was smart, why wouldn't they try to go to a more proven market than TTN... Really? There is a reason they are in this situation...poor management. How about MEM where DL is essentially de-hubbing, or CVG where they pretty much already have de-hubbed. I think there's better places than TTN to try to build up a hub. Republic better hope they can get rid of F9 sooner than later.

Quoting mke717spotter (Reply 215):
County Executive Brian Hughes, Frontier executives, Watson, Shurz and other officials met with Lt. Gov. Kim Guadagno yesterday afternoon at the airport to discuss the effects of the sequester.

“We have a very real possibility of the closure of the tower,” Hughes said."

Oh well...yawn...that's too bad isn't it? Tell me why this airport can not succeed without a Federal subsidy from everyone's tax dollars? I wonder how many Central Jersey residents, if asked to rank the importance of having this small airport in their midst, which serves a very limited clientele, would say this is how they want their taxes spent? I'll bet almost none. If TTN can't survive without our taxes subsidizing it, then the ticket prices should be raised to reflect the true cost of the service, or the airport should close. This is a perfect case study of what's wrong with our government. Some local politicians decide that something which benefits only a select few people should be propped up with tax dollars to make it feasible. Were New Jersey voters asked about this? Of course not, but now all of a sudden when the public realizes this airport only works because its subsidize, they're expected to be sympathetic? Forget it. Let the airport close.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 217):

Having worked around the federal government for twenty five years I still think a lot of beltway bloviating and scare tactics are in play.

So in other words, its politics as usual? This is nothing but pure fear-mongering. This is all you need to know about the FAA budget: flights are down 27% of the pre 9-11 numbers, and the FAA Budget is up 41% in the same time. Less flights equals less work, why does the FAA need to spend 41% more money to ensure 27% less flights are safe? If the Feds can't cut 2% of its monster budget, then we need to rethink our way of legislating.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mke717spotter
Posted 2013-02-28 14:49:55 and read 5268 times.

Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 222):
If TTN can't survive without our taxes subsidizing it, then the ticket prices should be raised to reflect the true cost of the service, or the airport should close.

I'm not sure you're understanding the situation completely. The airport is not going to close, however, the control tower "MAY" close. You'd have to think that the true cost of service for TTN is low.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-02-28 15:56:12 and read 5228 times.

Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 222):
Really? There is a reason they are in this situation...poor management. How about MEM where DL is essentially de-hubbing, or CVG where they pretty much already have de-hubbed.

I guess you are completely unaware of the history of Northwest/Delta (and Frontier) at MEM or any LCC and Delta at CVG.

Then there was what Delta did to Frontier when it started MCI-MSP.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2013-02-28 16:18:28 and read 5200 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 224):
Then there was what Delta did to Frontier when it started MCI-MSP

Old news and irrelivant cities IMHO. There is no way in 2013 Delta would defend CVG or MEM like they would SLC, MSP, DTW, ATL or NYC. Delta has not flipped out at frontier flying CVG-DEN.

Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 222):
If F9 was smart, why wouldn't they try to go to a more proven market than TTN... Really?
Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 222):
If F9 was smart, why wouldn't they try to go to a more proven market than TTN... Really? There is a reason they are in this situation...poor management. How about MEM where DL is essentially de-hubbing, or CVG where they pretty much already have de-hubbed. I think there's better places than TTN to try to build up a hub. Republic better hope they can get rid of F9 sooner than later.

I am sure no one wants to part ways sooner than Republic, the purchase has certainly not worked out the way they envisioned it at all. CVG and MEM do seem like good opportunities in a way but woudln't PIT, IND, or RDU be better no real threats and ample gate space. They could reroute flights there when denver has bad weather and have a way to move passengers other than buying expensive plane tickets on other airlines in bulk but not bulk pricing. When bad weather or flight cancellations due to maintenance hits people will fly way out of the way they just want to get there.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-02-28 16:25:22 and read 5193 times.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 225):
Old news and irrelivant cities IMHO. There is no way in 2013 Delta would defend CVG or MEM like they would SLC, MSP, DTW, ATL or NYC. Delta has not flipped out at frontier flying CVG-DEN.

Old news? What happened at MCI-MSP is less than two years ago.

But Delta has never flipped out when it is a route to and from a hub, as DEN is for Frontier. That's how Frontier was able to start SLC, MSP, ATL and DTW without Delta going nutso.

mariner

[Edited 2013-02-28 16:28:26]

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-02-28 16:39:43 and read 5250 times.

Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 222):
Tell me why this airport can not succeed without a Federal subsidy from everyone's tax dollars?

What federal subsidy? The TTN ATC tower is no different than any other airport with salaried employees.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: skycub
Posted 2013-02-28 17:18:37 and read 5226 times.

I am just curious as to why this thread has reached 200+ comments when there is a dedicated Frontier thread?

I don't think any other airline gets their OWN thread.... yet Frontier get's their OWN thread plus a lengthy discussion in this one.

What is it going to be? A dedicated F9 thread OR a dedicated F9 thread PLUS other F9 threads when people think it is warranted?

I don't see any other airlines getting dedicated threads for news that only pertain to them PLUS added threads when people think some item is important enough for its own thread?

I guess F9 fanboys want to have their cake and eat it, too?

 

I mean seriously... can someone explain to me why F9 deserves their OWN thread.... but they get a totally separate thread when something is newsworthy?

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-02-28 17:43:26 and read 5203 times.

Quoting skycub (Reply 228):
I mean seriously... can someone explain to me why F9 deserves their OWN thread.... but they get a totally separate thread when something is newsworthy?

Anyone can make any thread they want, you can make a United or Houston thread. If enough people respond to keep it towards the top then you will constantly see it, if not then you won't. Do you really want multiple threads on Trenton?? This is actually better for you because you don't have to see 5 different threads about whats happening with Frontier Service in Trenton.

The fact that this thread has 228 replies to it tells you that its a popular topic deserving of its on thread. I guess we could have added it to the New Frontier thread but what about those who wish to talk about just Trenton

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: skycub
Posted 2013-02-28 18:00:35 and read 5186 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 229):

Anyone can make any thread they want, you can make a United or Houston thread. If enough people respond to keep it towards the top then you will constantly see it, if not then you won't. Do you really want multiple threads on Trenton?? This is actually better for you because you don't have to see 5 different threads about whats happening with Frontier Service in Trenton.

The fact that this thread has 228 replies to it tells you that its a popular topic deserving of its on thread. I guess we could have added it to the New Frontier thread but what about those who wish to talk about just Trenton

If that is the case.... why not have separate threads on ALL of the routes F9 is adding/dropping?

Guess what? I have no clue where F9 is flying today unless I want to read through the F9-exclusive thread.

AA, US, DL, NK, WN, UA, B6, etc etc all add and drop/add new cities and routes. And you know what? They all get new threads.

So why does F9 need its OWN thread PLUS separate threads for what F9 fanboys consider "significant" developments?

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-02-28 18:52:44 and read 5149 times.

Quoting skycub (Reply 230):
So why does F9 need its OWN thread PLUS separate threads for what F9 fanboys consider "significant" developments?

Ok, you win, F9 doesn't NEED a seperate thread on Trenton. Just like we don't NEED your permission to start a seperate thread on Trenton.

Quoting skycub (Reply 230):
separate threads for what F9 fanboys consider "significant" developments?

We don't NEED this forum, no one is going to die because Airliners.net doesn't exist. It exists because airline "fanboys" want to have a web forum to discuss their interest in airlines and the travel industry. The Trenton thread exists because people want to talk about what they consider an interesting development. Apparantly there are enough people or enough things to say to keep the thread high on the forum.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-02-28 19:01:40 and read 5133 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 221):
Unless it's operator error on my part and I tried it several times It appears the TTN tab on the F9 interactive routmap http://www.flyfrontier.com/plan-book/routes-schedules/route-map is inoperable.

The route map populates TTN but the flight segments from TTN to other cities do not populate.

I don't think we should read anything into that. I doubt they would shut down Trenton because of a tower closure that could only be a few days long.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: skycub
Posted 2013-02-28 19:52:51 and read 5085 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 231):
Just like we don't NEED your permission to start a seperate thread on Trenton.

I don't think I ever implied that you need my permission to do anything. Where did I say that?

My question, again, is: Every other airline that starts/drops a route gets a new thread. They do.

Why does F9 need their OWN thread PLUS additional threads when their route additions/deletions are considered important enough?

Mods... can you answer this question? What make F9 so special that they get their OWN thread that discusses route additions/deletions but also additional threads when the route additions/deletions are considered too important for the original F9 thread?

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: rampart
Posted 2013-02-28 22:35:57 and read 5052 times.

It's tilting at windmills night on A.net...

Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 222):
Oh well...yawn...that's too bad isn't it? Tell me why this airport can not succeed without a Federal subsidy from everyone's tax dollars? I wonder how many Central Jersey residents, if asked to rank the importance of having this small airport in their midst, which serves a very limited clientele, would say this is how they want their taxes spent? I'll bet almost none. If TTN can't survive without our taxes subsidizing it, then the ticket prices should be raised to reflect the true cost of the service, or the airport should close. This is a perfect case study of what's wrong with our government. Some local politicians decide that something which benefits only a select few people should be propped up with tax dollars to make it feasible. Were New Jersey voters asked about this? Of course not, but now all of a sudden when the public realizes this airport only works because its subsidize, they're expected to be sympathetic? Forget it. Let the airport close.

This kind of opinion is not consistent with an aviation enthusiast website. In fact, it's very anti-aviation. Are there any general aviation airports in Illinois you want to close? I hear your state capital has fairly puny air service, and surely it's a waste to have all that land at Abraham Lincoln Airport sitting idle. Maybe they could raise more corn, or start building tractors again? Likewise, I'm not thrilled with how much money is drained into I-72 cutting through Illinois with minimal traffic. Illinois needs to shut that down. I'm not please with the fractions of my tax pennies going to the maintenance and upkeep of that slab of asphalt all year. We could use it better here in New Jersey. In truth, a system of different sized airports across the country is one of the pillars of our very good transportation infrastructure. Not everything can be served by O'hares spaced every 500 miles. They all get some government support, as well as some user fee support. I'm not a highway enthusiast but can certainly appreciate the need for highway infrastructure. I am an aviation enthusiast, and the need for airports would seem obvious. But I guess not?

Quoting skycub (Reply 233):
Why does F9 need their OWN thread PLUS additional threads when their route additions/deletions are considered important enough?

Mods... can you answer this question? What make F9 so special that they get their OWN thread that discusses route additions/deletions but also additional threads when the route additions/deletions are considered too important for the original F9 thread?

Oh, boy.   I would think that 233 and counting posts would demonstrate that the level of interest is high. Is there some sort of perverse frustration in wanting to delete something AND participate with it at the same time? Otherwise, why even open the topic? I don't get it.

-Rampart

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-03-01 00:36:37 and read 5030 times.

Lets not forget all of those EAS airports that's the pure definition of subsidized. Many of these airports are close enough to unsubsidized airports that they don't need the subsidy. I know of atleast one Imperial,CA is an hour away from Yuma but they get subsidized service because Yuma is not a medium size hub which is what the EAS statute requires.
I know there are also 3 airports in sky cubs state of IL that get an EAS subsidy Decatur, Marion, and Quincy.

TTN pax pay the FAA excise tax which goes to support the tower and other things. I'm sure that there is a tax on the fuel as well that helps too

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-03-01 08:53:08 and read 4954 times.

Quoting skycub (Reply 228):
What is it going to be? A dedicated F9 thread OR a dedicated F9 thread PLUS other F9 threads when people think it is warranted?

From my perch I like the segregated TTN thread. It steers comments specifically about the new micro hub (my words) in the PHL-TTN-EWR corridor. And there has been a lot happening as of lately. I think there is still a lot of good things to come at TTN.

I think it is an outside of the box, brilliant strategy and tactic which several other carriers failed to fully understand and or grasp across the years. I've flown in and out of many small airports. It's iconic F9 has found an airport with high density populous with infrastructure smaller than most of the airports in rural and semi-rural Alaska.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: JBAirwaysFan
Posted 2013-03-01 09:00:46 and read 4943 times.

Quoting skycub (Reply 228):
I am just curious as to why this thread has reached 200+ comments when there is a dedicated Frontier thread?

You just answered your own question.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-03-01 19:16:12 and read 4875 times.

More TTN news http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2..._executive_brian.html#incart_river

"One of Hughes’ biggest hopes for the area is creating new connections to the Trenton-Mercer Airport in Ewing, where the county recently acquired 1,300 acres, he said. The expansion of services there by Frontier Airlines could be a big draw for future travelers, Hughes said, adding that he wants to establish transportation routes to the airport from Philadelphia and to explore the idea of making the site an NJ Transit rail stop. “This could be a world-renowned transportation hub"

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-03-01 21:51:23 and read 4769 times.

If Trenton doesn't lose it's tower they can use the Sequester to their advantage.

Something like a Beat the Sequester sale "Dont let politicans waste your time , beat the sequester delays at Newark and PhIlly by flying nonstop to 10 popular destinations from Princeton/Trenton, NJ. Lower fares, affordable parking and no sequester delays Call 1-800-4321-FLY or goto Flyfrontier.com for details"

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-03-01 23:19:08 and read 4752 times.

According to this Fox News article
FAA Administrator Michael Huerta says airport shutdowns and flight cancellations are expected to start in early April.

http://fxn.ws/ViR6NN

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2013-03-05 22:20:51 and read 4513 times.

It looks like TTN will definitely see some snow this week

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-03-06 00:25:18 and read 4490 times.

TTN will see some snow 2 to 5 inches. They did ok the last time it snowed so I hope it will be a repeat. Though this is the kind of weather where it would be nice to have a jetbridge. The sequester looks like it will stall the crowding fixes to the terminal, why would Mercer county bother if they aren't sure that frontier will stay now that they have no control tower.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-03-06 14:15:21 and read 4331 times.

Slightly O-T; it appears the MFR airport restaurant has found a way to serve customers on both sides of the security line. The model looks like it is being copied at a couple of airports including Juneau. As TTN grows it might be something for them to also look at.

Courtesy KINY Juneau Alaska "They also traveled to the airport in Medford, Oregon, which figured out a way to have a restaurant that can serve on both the secured and non-secured sides of their facility. Johnson says they're looking at that model".

I don't have any specifics on the restaurant and I've never flown into MFR supposedly the airport is Oregon's third busiest.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-03-11 20:00:01 and read 3978 times.

Interesting proposal at TTN.

They want to add more parking and Frontier has agreed to pay for the design of it - if they can't get other sources - and be repaid from parking fees.

I'm guessing (?) they would keep the free parking areas that already exist.

http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2...passengers_may_have_to_pay_to.html

"At meetings this week the freeholder board will consider entering into an agreement with the airport's one commercial operator, Frontier Airlines, to build an additional parking lot, according to the board's meeting agenda.

Frontier has agreed to put up $200,000 to fund the design of the lot if other funding sources are not available to the county, board documents say.

The proposed agreement calls for the county to repay the airline through parking fees. No fee structure or parking ordinance has been announced. The county would have five years to repay the airline in full."


The deal still has to be approved by the Freeholders. They are also planning to reopen the restaurant, but that has to be approved, too.

mariner

[Edited 2013-03-11 20:01:00]

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2013-03-11 20:29:46 and read 3942 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 236):
think it is an outside of the box, brilliant strategy and tactic which several other carriers failed to fully understand and or grasp across the years.

Yeah it really might turn out to be a huge success or Frontier might repeat history and TTN turns out just like it did for those other carriers. Eastwind or Delta did try here.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-03-11 20:35:13 and read 3921 times.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 245):
Yeah it really might turn out to be a huge success or Frontier might repeat history and TTN turns out just like it did for those other carriers. Eastwind or Delta did try here.

Or - like so many things - somewhere down the middle of those two extremes.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-03-12 06:53:33 and read 3743 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 244):
The proposed agreement calls for the county to repay the airline through parking fees. No fee structure or parking ordinance has been announced. The county would have five years to repay the airline in full."

I like the parking configuration BNA offers which is four tiers of parking. Valet, long term, short term and overflow. Valet being the most expensive was $25 per day and overflow the lesser of the evils at $8 per day. A coupon for $1 is usually offered.

BNA offers courtesy shuttle service every five minutes or so to all of the parking lots scattered about the BNA property; the furthest being a good mile from baggage claim with no good means to huff it.

I wrote previously I thought a $3 parking fee might fly. If TTN wanted to maintain the integrity of free parking they might consider charging for the shuttle service to/from the terminal and maintain the free parking. The free parking is a valuable perk which in my mind would justify the drive from the greater PHL and possibly EWR catchment areas when you consider the additional cost to use public or private transportation to/from TTN.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: rampart
Posted 2013-03-12 07:09:19 and read 3736 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 247):
I wrote previously I thought a $3 parking fee might fly. If TTN wanted to maintain the integrity of free parking they might consider charging for the shuttle service to/from the terminal and maintain the free parking. The free parking is a valuable perk which in my mind would justify the drive from the greater PHL and possibly EWR catchment areas when you consider the additional cost to use public or private transportation to/from TTN.

I think a fare for a shuttle is a nonstarter. I know of no airport that charges a fare for a shuttle between terminals, to parking lots, or to rental cars. That would be the kind of thing where new customers would try the airport once and not come back. Petty, it seems, but so would be a shuttle fare.

Perhaps they could charge a minimal fee for long-term parking, and free short-term parking, or vice versa. I agree, free parking is something that tilts the balance, and it may be a precarious balance, given the current lack of mass transit.

-Rampart

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-03-12 07:28:05 and read 3713 times.

Yeah, I'm not so sure, I like the idea of charging for parking. I know that paying for the parking lot is something that needs to be done but I'm not sure charging for parking is a good idea. I think that if the restaurant reopens then paying back Frontier for the new lot should come out of rent. The monthly cost of the $200,000 loan would be $3,334. The new lease is for $3,500 a month. Without Frontier, I don't think they would have the interest in renting out the restaurant space.

From the NJ.com article
The former restaurant, The Runway, closed in January after the proprietors said they could not afford to pay their rent on time and had too little business. The 1,500-square-foot space has since been used for overflow passenger seating as Frontier has expanded its flight schedule.

Its interesting I don't know how they are utilizing the space. I assume the restaurant in addition to the staircase from the lobby must be accessible from the 2nd floor. So I assume there must be a staircase somewhere past security and other access to the restaurant area sealed off or at least watched by the Mercer County Sheriffs department. Unless this is pre-security seating and I think that isn't a great solution but I guess a temporary one. What happens to the additional seating when the restaurant is open as well, where do they put all the people. Well at least they are addressing it in someways, I hope not just temporarily.

Also the willingness of Frontier in putting up the money should show that they are willing to stick it out at Trenton perhaps even without the control tower. I hope that it means that future sales look good too. I don't think that the sequester and the tower closure will last long though.

[Edited 2013-03-12 07:37:35]

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: Sligo
Posted 2013-03-12 07:39:10 and read 3694 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 249):
Yeah, I'm not so sure, I like the idea of charging for parking. I know that paying for the parking lot is something that needs to be done but I'm not sure charging for parking is a good idea.

They should charge b/c (1) the facilities will need upgrades, (2) showing the ability to produce revenue through various sources will be important down the line and (3) it's an opportunity to ensure the county stays above water on the airport's P&L...*but* none of us trust governments not to be piggish about it. If they're not piggish and they keep it at $5 or under per day for at least +/- 24 months then they'll build some credibility and there will be no elastic effect on the use of the airport.

As far as the restaurant is concerned...this doesnt make sense. Yes, concessions are needed...but only kiosks that take up the minimum amount of sqft. There is no room for any real back-of-house; any room for that sort of thing should go to accommodating hold rooms and the like.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: PHLBOS
Posted 2013-03-12 08:04:08 and read 3677 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 246):
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 245):
Yeah it really might turn out to be a huge success or Frontier might repeat history and TTN turns out just like it did for those other carriers. Eastwind or Delta did try here.

Or - like so many things - somewhere down the middle of those two extremes.

   Agreed.

IIRC, the issue w/Eastwind was due to the entire airline shutting down and not just its TTN operations.

In DL's case, it was due to overpricing its fares (which were 3 times as much as they was charging for a similar route out of PHL) and poor advertising.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-03-12 08:28:14 and read 3640 times.

Quoting Sligo (Reply 250):
If they're not piggish and they keep it at $5 or under per day for at least +/- 24 months then they'll build some credibility and there will be no elastic effect on the use of the airport.

If they do charge $5 a day, then they should use some of the money to refurb the terminal right now. At half capacity of the number of spaces they have now before the additional parking lot (but after the new one they were already building opens), it will come to about $82,500 a month. ($5 a day * 550 spaces * 30). Something tells me it will be $3 a day tops which would equal $49,500 a month. They posess the info on how well the flights are doing, I hope that they will consider that in choosing what to charge.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-03-12 12:11:31 and read 3487 times.

Quoting rampart (Reply 248):
I think a fare for a shuttle is a nonstarter. I know of no airport that charges a fare for a shuttle between terminals,

I guess my thought process was if the airport ultimately decided to charge to transport pax to/from the terminal the amount would be miniscule and about the same amount I would probably tip the driver. The flying public then has the option of huffing it which gives them a choice.

With that said I don't know the layout of the TTN airport. I flew out of their once in 1968 to Germany on what I remember was a Eastern Airlines charter. We were shuttled over to TTN from McGuire AFB. I believe it had something to do with weather at the nearby Air Force base. I was all of eight years old at the time and it was midnight when we finally took off.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-03-13 11:35:11 and read 3243 times.

More info on the restaurant and the parking at TTN

The restaurant space is 3600 square feet. 1500 would be used as a bar area where bar food could be purchased. 2100 sq feet would remain for overflow seating. As far as parking goes Trenton now has approximately 650 parking spaces located near the terminal with an additional 280 spaces coming in early April with the finishing of a currently under construction new lot. In addition, passengers may also use a remote lot (unspecified as to how many spaces are available) and are currently shuttled back to the terminal using a county shuttle bus. Frontier has agreed to loan the county 200,000 for the design of an additional parking lot adjacent to the terminal which would add an additional 270 spaces to total 1200 total spaces available. Officials say it could cost up to 2.5 million dollars to offer the 1200 spaces that Frontier is estimating that they would need for their service. Though I am wondering why it would cost that much when they built the 280 space lot for $250,000 using Mercer County DOT road crews.

A bid for a private company to run shuttle buses to the temporary parking lot has been put out and it is estimated to cost $30,000 to $50,000 a month to offer 20 hour 6 day a week service.

Info was taken from 2 new news stories about the airport
http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2...renton-mercer_airport_must_do.html
http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2...renton-mercer_airport_may_cha.html

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-03-14 08:03:34 and read 3043 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 254):
Frontier has agreed to loan the county 200,000 for the design of an additional parking lot adjacent to the terminal which would add an additional 270 spaces to total 1200 total spaces available. Officials say it could cost up to 2.5 million dollars to offer the 1200 spaces that Frontier is estimating that they would need for their service

I think a $3 daily parking fee would fly which in my mind mirrors F9 ULCC theme. Obviously F9 and the Freeholders are partnering. It might be time for TTN to take parking up in lieu of out. It's a lot of concrete and steel/reed bar. In the frugal market many municipalities have started using recycle asphalt on secondary roads turning what was once gravel and dirt into paved asphalt.

Although parking lots can be reconfigured lets hope the airport authority has set land aside for future terminal expansion. If not now in the next 5-10 years.

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-03-14 12:29:30 and read 2948 times.

TTN now has a $2.5 million state grant for improvements to the taxiways, etc:

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/198145001.html

"N.J. lieutenant Gov. Kim Guadagno announced a $2.5 million state grant for Trenton-Mercer Airport to upgrade a taxiway, part of a $12 million project that will include paving, grading, installing lights and other improvements."

Nothing yet about improvements to the terminal. I believe that at the big meeting with the state, the airport and Frontier, an expansion of the holding area was considered top priority.

And there is this:

"Frontier expects more than 200,000 passengers to board its flights this year from Trenton airport, off Exit 2 on I-95."

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move
Username: iowaman
Posted 2013-03-14 14:18:09 and read 2881 times.

Due to thread length please continue on part 2: Frontier TTN Smart Move Part 2 (by iowaman Mar 14 2013 in Civil Aviation)


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